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Revision as of 15:38, 26 August 2012 editSport and politics (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users7,749 editsm Hijab section reverted← Previous edit Revision as of 15:42, 26 August 2012 edit undoAndromedean (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,179 edits Protection: need to reference previous version for meaningful discussionNext edit →
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::It already has been discussed. I am just expecting reverts due to the nature of the editing in this article. ] (]) 15:23, 26 August 2012 (UTC) ::It already has been discussed. I am just expecting reverts due to the nature of the editing in this article. ] (]) 15:23, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

:It is unlikely a meaningful discussion can take place if many of the reasons why the subject is controversial have been taken out, , or better still revert to this and lock it for extended discussion together with an expeienced arbitrator who understands the rules, or else this will carry on going round in circles forever.--] (]) 15:42, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


==Hijab section reverted== ==Hijab section reverted==

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Men's Cycling Team Sprint

This section is clearly not a controversy as what was said about crashing deliberately is disputed as to if it was even said. No investigation of the incident occurred. The statements we retracted even if they were said and the result was not affected. This section is another in a long list of non-controversies for the bin. Sport and politics (talk) 15:08, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree. The fact that the cyclist admitted something that could have gotten his team disqualified, then the team had to quickly try to cover it up, is a controversy. Cla68 (talk) 22:44, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Ditto and more so in the light of the women's adminton saga(Lihaas (talk) 23:21, 6 August 2012 (UTC)).
The badminton yes I agree that is a controversy, but I disagree that a single crash in the cycling which may or may not have been on purpose and weather or not the claimed saying was actually said or not is actually a controversy. There was no investigation and no action taken. The badminton was investigated and 8 of the top players in the World were thrown out, that was a controversy. Sport and politics (talk) 23:36, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
You should research before start questioning whether he said it or not. There are videos on youtube of him saying in english, "I just did it, just to get a restart, because my first start wasn't the greatest. So I thought, get a restart." I think what he meant is pretty clear. Also just because the governing body refuse to investigate does not imply it is not a controversy as it is a clear violation of the Olympic spirit. 71.90.101.106 (talk) 04:08, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
You should do some research too - it's been said by the team that this was a case of lost in translation, which is most likely referring to the fact his first language isn't English, given he was born and raised in Germany. FerrerFour (talk) 19:47, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

The claims that this is a "controversy" are sounding like simple Original Research not backed up by the facts. This is because the sources contradict each other other. One says he did it deliberately, another says he didn't. One says he said this and that, while another says it was all a misunderstanding lost in the way he said things. This is all contradictory and to make assumptions and claims based on contradictory evidence is Original Research. There is no proof of anything in this at all. Sport and politics (talk) 22:15, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

His claim of mistranslation as a reaction is part and parcel of the controversy.
Further, virtually wthe whole page doesnt explicitly mention "controversy" so thats could be construed as coOR too. His explicit statement as such are reason enough to make it a controversy on the same level.Lihaas (talk) 23:22, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Reason enough only by your interpreting of the sources which is synthesis.
Can you stop talking rubbish please? If sources say different things, then you simply reflect that in the text in a balanced way. That is NOT original research. And no, if sources actually use the words "controversial" to describe an incident, as many do in this case, then that's pretty much the complete opposite of original research. It's pretty clear that you've never even read the Original Research page based on all these misinformed claims about what it is and isn't. FerrerFour (talk) 01:10, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
The story is a non-story if the sources cannot make out clearly what happened or the reasons why it happened. The content of this article needs to be clear, concise, on topic, notable, relevant and be easily understandable. This is clearly not clear, not easily understood, and not notable. This is again anoter piece of journalism. Claiming that it is a controversy based on cherry picking from the sources is synthesising the answer. Claiming it is something based an opinion is Original Research. there has to be positive evidence proving something is what it is and not to try and claim it is not something. These sources are though giving contradictory evidence and are proving nothing. The opinion that this is a controversy is Original Research. Once again please refrain from making personal comments on contributors. Sport and politics (talk) 08:25, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Please just stop talking absolute rubbish. It's beyond obvious that you don't have the first idea what Original Research even is, neither do you have any idea what notabiity is. The idea that we can't include information if the picture of what actually happened is not clear, is again just total and utter rubbish. Why don't you all give us a laugh and go and suggest the deletion of the Area 51 article based on this bizarre theory of yours. After all, nobody's all that clear what the truth is behind that topic are they? FerrerFour (talk) 14:05, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
By the reading of the comments above there seems to be a very flimsy grasp (if any at all) of what Wikipeida is not. There has been adequate explanation of why it constitutes OR, Synthesis and why it is not notable. This is beginning to look like I like there for I want it in. The difference between this and Area 51 is that Area 51 has a large volume or sources which give a large amount of verifiability and notability to the article. It gives a balanced argument to the whole article. Nothing in anywhere similar exists for this non-story. Sport and politics (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:18, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

UTC) UTC)

I shouldn't trust your reading skills if I were you, if you've ever read any of the policies you keep linking, you've clearly not understood them. There is no difference in Area 51 and this item given what you were claiming - you said that if sources are not clear on the story, it should not be covered. Which is garbage. A balanced treatment of this item is possible because there are plenty of sources out there. The only IDONTLIKEIT going on here, is your stupid outright rejection of sources because they're 'journalism' and bizarre belief that using sources as the basis for content is Original Research (totally the opposite), based on you not really understanding that notability governs titles not content, not really understanding that NOT#NEWS doesn't apply to non-routine reporting, and not really comprehending that RECENTISM cannot be assesed when the issue is still recent! You know nothing about any of this it seems, yet it doesn't seem to stop you waffling on as if you do. FerrerFour (talk) 14:46, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Please refrain from making personal comments on contributors. I have made clear and thoroughly explained points to set out my position on the information. If you disagree, please do so in a way which addresses the substance of the information being discussed and not the individual making the contribution. Failure to stay on the substance of the discussion and to continue to focus on the individual contributors may result in referral for being uncivil and making personal attacks. I also suggest reading the things to avoid on a discussion pageSport and politics (talk) 20:15, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
The main issue here is the contributor, namely your continued failure/refusal to understand many basic policies even when they're explained to you, while continuing to blindly insist that you do. I have addressed the substance many times, but it is essentially pointless when you don't have the competence to participate in the debate in a meaningfull and logical manner. FerrerFour (talk) 16:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Number of sources does not imply whether an event is notable or not. However amount of social coverage is an indication of notability.65.42.208.133 (talk) 14:41, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Could you please provide something verifiable for that? Sport and politics (talk) 14:44, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
You can take a look at the comment sections of the 2 links here:
YouTube: Philip Hindes admitting deliberate crash In this video of the actual interview, there is no mistake in what Hindes said, in plain English (as opposed to the lost-in-translation spin).
daily Mail: Top British cyclist wrapped in cheating scandal after teammate admits he fell on purpose so he could restart race - but they can KEEP gold medal. There are 27 comments there as commenting was disabled. But you can take a look at the voting on each of the comments to get a sense of what people think about this incident.
BTW, there are several attempts to remove the inclusion of this highly controversial incident. I hope people would have enough decency to leave it alone in this article. (Showmebeef (talk) 21:39, 14 August 2012 (UTC))
  • Wow showmebeef how dense do you have to be. Citing a blog at the bottom of a news report is world class not. People always write things supporting the main point of the article of things like this. POVing for it to be bigger than it is. It is not. Go and learn what is conterversal. The UCI said nothing. They can't prove anything all they have is his word. Therefore not even remotely notworthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.173.122 (talk) 21:45, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Somehow people who lack manners just can't hide it--I'll resist getting into personal attacks here (besides, attacking an IP address is tantamount to digital heresy). If you bother to read the 2 preceding comments, you would realize that "Sport and policy" asked to "provide something verifiable" in response to an earlier comment that "amount of social coverage is an indication of notability", I provided those 2 links so S&P can have a sense of the "amount of social coverage".
As for what is controversial (as oppose to "conterversal"--somebody really need to learn how to spell first before engaging in a debate), well, this incident is as controversial as the badminton players who play to lose in order to gain a more desirable seating. Period! You said that "they can't prove anything all they have is his word"--well, if he openly admits that he fell deliberately in order to gain a edge with a restart, with a video of the interview to support it, what else do you need?
And here you are again mindless deleting sections not to your liking! Well FYI this is Misplaced Pages--you need to have some consensus to change/delete something. (Showmebeef (talk) 04:53, 15 August 2012 (UTC))
We really shouldn't be going to primary sources like that to advance a position--such as dispelling a claim. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 03:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
Well, I just don't know how we can stop those ridiculous lost-in-translation claims when a video of his interview is readily available online. The video is originally from a reliable source. I don't understand why it's not a good idea to reference it. Did I miss something? (Showmebeef (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 05:37, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
It's not our job to stop ridiculous claims. If there's a reliable secondary source that says the claims are wrong, then we cite that secondary source. Otherwise, we shouldn't be commenting on the veracity of the claims (regardless of how ridiculous they are). -- Jonel (Speak to me) 00:13, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
I agree with you that we should not be the ones to make judgement. My intention is really to provide the source material, in this case the readily available video of the first person account, instead of a second person interpretation of what he said, or what he could have meant. It's really up to viewers who watch the video to draw their own conclusions. (Showmebeef (talk) 01:47, 18 August 2012 (UTC))
Can you please provide a link to the original reliable source. Sport and politics (talk) 09:08, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
The original content is from BBC Sports. Is there any reason to doubt the authenticity of it? I can understand the rationale of shying away from amateur videos on the YouTube. But this is obviously not the case. (Showmebeef (talk) 23:36, 17 August 2012 (UTC))
To address your question directly--no, the original source (the video of the interview by BBC Sports) is no longer available on the BBC Sports website. Is the copy of the original that is currently available on YouTube considered reliable? I personally think it is as the technology to doctor a video is pretty sophisticated and not readily available. But I'm OK if there is objection to using it, as the secondary sources have provided transcript of the interview which I have included in the article. (Showmebeef (talk) 21:02, 19 August 2012 (UTC))

Technologies used for Olympic sports

I've included a section on how technology/engineering in equipment and clothing has been used to gain a competitive advantage, foccussing mainly on the GB cycling team, but it could be extended to include other athletes and sports. This is mainly about how the bike, helmet and clothing is used as a package to reduce aerodynamic drag, and is distinct from how technology has been used to train athletes so they perform more efficiently. The latter is far less controversial and hardly modern. However, positioning of the athlete to create a more aerodynamic package is rather borderline between the two since it becomes part of the package and certain stances have been declared illegal in the past. I have anticipated counterclaims that the other teams have the same opportunity and could have bought the equipment etc, so I have defended the criticism in some detail with as much objectivity as possible. --Andromedean (talk) 21:25, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you have any semblance of controversy other than just the original research and synthesis being displayed. The GB cycling team did very well and mainly the French need to get over it. Complaining as the French did is just being a sore loser so it is not a controversy. The "Magic Wheels" comments by Gregory Bauge are just him being a sore loser. TeamGB cycling has embraced new technology, wind tunnels and the most efficient & legally allowed positions on a bicycle. Its time the rest of the world caught up, this is not a controversy. Just because one team did really well doesn't make it bad it just means they are better than the rest which is not at all a controversy as it was all done perfectly legally. I am not entirely sure what you are alluding to when you refer to "create a more aerodynamic package is rather borderline between the two since it becomes part of the package". The cycling positions were not queried by the commissars and were all legal, this is in no way controversial as zero rules, of any kind were broken . The section is not needed in this article at all and has such been removed. Sport and politics (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Agree with S&P. This is more of a conspiracy theory than a controversy - Basement12 (T.C) 23:58, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


The knee jerk reaction of removing this key and well researched controversy which goes to the heart of Olympic principles is completely unwarranted. May I remind users that articles must be unbiased. Allowing competitors to compete on unequal terms is highly controversial and surely must be included.

Controversies are not purely limited to what the Olympic officials decide, although I have provided evidence GB cycling have fought long and hard with the authorities, and their technology and positioning have been banned in the past. (see Graeme Obre The opinion of the sporting experts and Engineers and even the Cycling's performance director Dave Brailsford who admitted that he 'damn well hoped' that technology would provide an edge should be paramount.

May I strongly suggest that if this is tampered with again a full and well researched explanation is supplied why you don't believe the extensive funds and intensive research into improving the aerodynamics of the equipment would not yield potentially large enough differences so that medal positions would be altered irrespective of the abilities of the athletes. If you do find one I suggest you find a good reason how such funds could be justified, which would be itself controversial.

The 'magic wheels' term is a strawman argument to distract the user from the very real differences the bikes may have.--Andromedean (talk) 06:03, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

That is referencing a direct source you use in your text.Sport and politics (talk) 00:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
I just looked at the sources Andromedean used, and several of them appear to validate this as a controversy. Instead of revert warring with Andromedean's good-faithed efforts to improve this article, I suggest the other regulars here look themselves at the sources and prune out any synthesis and leave what remains in the article. Cla68 (talk) 07:55, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Cla68 that this article has multiple sources to back up its claim and it is controversial along the same line as the use of polyurethane suits. Note that there is a whole section regarding the swimsuit controversy at 2009 World Aquatics Championships. They were legal then and but were officially banned starting from the 2011 World Aquatics Championships. So the fact that it is legal (now) doesn't mean it is not controversial. Instead of engaging in an edit war, the editors who criticize it for including too much synthesis and original research should help to trim them instead of simply removing it, or at least give the original editor a chance to do it on his own. (Showmebeef (talk) 16:32, 20 August 2012 (UTC))
There is nothing in that section that marks this out as a controversy other than the use of the skinsuits which is refrenced to a blog, hardly a reliable source. Other than that the section refers to the development and use of equipment that has been approved by the governing body (and says that other teams are trying to do the same), unfounded claims by opposition teams with no greater basis in fact than the ones made by American swimming coaches against Ye Shiwen) and a threat of a ban that never came about. Synthesis and a lack of any controversy aside it's also entirely biased making no mention of the ridiculous number of small measures put in place by the British team (for example I've seen specialist pillows, hand washing and leg warmers mentioned in the press and on tv) to gain any tiny advantage possible. I can't see any basis for this section to be included - Basement12 (T.C) 17:45, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I am going to address the issues you raised first and then state my position. You seemed to imply that Andromedean uses blog only as his source (..other than the use of the skinsuits which is refrenced to a blog, hardly a reliable source). This is not entirely accurate--he has referenced several reputable sources, including BBC Sport, BBC news, Guardian, and publications by professional institutions. Also your comparison of this case to the Ye Shiwen incident is without merit as there isn't semblance at all. In Ye's case, the allegation of doping is totally baseless--Ye has been involved in international competitions since 2010 (and amassed more than 10 medals) and has never failed a test. Hers is a very clear-cut case and there is no controversy at all. However, the case we are discussing here have a lot of gray areas. The key question to ask is whether the technology-enhanced equipments (be they skinsuits, handle bar, saddle, helmet, or what have you, or be they currently legal or not) provide a significant (unfair) advantage over other athletes or not. That's the key question raised against the polyurethane suits. We know the suits were legal for a period of time, but were ultimately judged as having provided unfair advantage and banned. So does the technology as discuss in this article provides an (unfair) advantage? As for whether it provides an advantage, Chris Boardman, Head of R&D, British Cycling, is not shy about it: "Well, I'd like to think so. We haven't done our job if they're not", as he is quoted in Olympics track cycling: Will technology win the war for GB?. Whether it's significant and unfair is up for debate.
Now that Andromedean has provided yet another source from a professional institution which provides troves of information on this particular subject. I think we should all take our time and digest the information from the article. It would help us draw the fine line as to whether to (ultimately) include this article in the section. Meanwhile I still propose that the article be included (currently) in this section as it provides a platform for discussion and improvement. (Showmebeef (talk) 06:02, 21 August 2012 (UTC))

I have just discovered that my Professional body published a report called Sports Engineering: An Unfair Advantage? on this very subject last month! This covers many of the topics discussed, so I will try to reference some extracts from it to make the section more authoritative. Bear in mind when reading it that the Mechanical Engineering profession are hardly unbiased and keen to promote this relatively new field of work. However, I agree with the report. It also seems to confirm the continual conflict between the sporting bodies whose job it is to maintain a level playing field, and the Engineers who are constantly attempting to improve the hardware, and training aids to give their sports team an advantage. Let me modify it tonight and see what you think. --Andromedean (talk) 19:25, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

This is not a controversy, there was nothing made of rich countries spending money on sport, during the Olympics. Other than it lead to success in some areas. I have never known being successful with in the laws of the land and with in the sporting rules codes and regulations to be a controversy, the competitions were all carried out fairly, without bias and within the rules. This also devalues the actual efforts of the competitors as it basically said you don't deserve your result because its all about the technology. This is rubbish. Also is it a controversy that America has Sports Scholarships to Colleges and Title IX. Is it wrong that China has sports academies for young children. How is this also related directly to these Olympics and is not related to the wider progression of technology of sport. I think far wider comments on this conspiracy theory are required as that is all it is . Bringing together all of these unrelated sources to say basically spending money on new technology is cheating. Its not a controversy. What was a controversy were the swimsuits banned in 2010. They are banned but nothing to do with these Olympics. Technology has been around for decades and using the full flexibility of the rules has been around for ever and a day. This is nothing more than making a conspiracy theory out of synthesis. Adding this nonsense devalues the article and distracts from the real controversies, which occurred such as the Boxing referee who declared a boxer the winner after he was knocked down six times. The Ticket scalping by overseas (non UK) Olympic committee members and the ability to buy votes for the bidding process as exposed by Panorama. This kind of conspiracy theory is not needed here at all no matter how much academic debate, industry comment and magazine opinion are produce. This is not a controversy and as such does not belong in a controversies article. Sport and politics (talk) 23:57, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


  • Keep/Include. The sources back this up as a controversy along the same lines as the compression swimsuits at the last Olympics. As a further comment, when editors add text that is, for the most part, sourced correctly, it is unecessarily hostile, confrontational, unproductive, and unhelpful to delete it on sight just because you disagree with its inclusion. When someone takes the time, and it is time consuming, to add sourced content to an article, help them, don't hector them. Misplaced Pages works best by collaboration, cooperation, and compromise. Not by revert warring, arguing, and criticizing. Cla68 (talk) 00:39, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
You have contributed to the above please leave the RFC for outside editors. We already know your position re-stating it is not needed. Please let others from outside comment. I would also like to point out that Wiki Policy is blind of "time and effort" put in from an editor. This is very poorly written prose and is based on assumptions and using incredibly synthesised phrasing such as " can quickly become controversial, especially if they...". This shows it is not based on cold hard fact, its using the article as a forum to push this. In my opinion its nothing more than a conspiracy theory attempting to dress up as a controversy. Sport and politics (talk) 01:29, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


I'm not sure why this is even being questioned. Are we reading the same material? There are a few quotes from the report Sports Engineering: An Unfair Advantage? which may be of value.

"the use of new technologies and engineering advances can still cause controversy."

"New technologies that drastically push boundaries can quickly become controversial. "

"The push and pull between tradition and technology in sport has been going on for over a century. However we are approaching a major crossroads in which the pace of change threatens to cause a new wave of ethical difficulties for sports regulators"

" From this point on, physical apparatus created by sports engineering would be subject to the same scrutiny as biological & chemical HETs. ‘Technology doping’ was now officially recognised as a threat.

"This means that in the 2012 Olympic Games technology usually associated with Formula One will be making cyclists faster, composite materials will help pole-vaulters leap higher and 3D mapping will make swimmers’ suits more hydrodynamic."

"The UCI’s response was the Lugano Charter, an extraordinary document that aimed to reassert the primacy of tradition over technology. The Charter said that the line had been crossed “beyond which technology takes hold of the system and seeks to impose its own logic”. The bicycle was “distancing itself from a reality which can be grasped and understood”"--Andromedean (talk) 05:22, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree we need to see the whole article in 'web' format so we can clearly assess it.

I think it is also interesting that the GB team kept the bike under wraps until the Olympics as stated here, isn't this at least against the spirit of the rules? We should include something on this in addition to the GB performance in the Cycling World Championships earlier in the year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andromedean (talkcontribs) 11:35, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Andromedean there appears to be unintentional synthesis of sources here creating something where it doesn't actually exist and giving an unbalanced POV and biased slant on the whole section. Sport and politics (talk) 12:40, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Sport and Politics, I've never seen an RfC in which "involved" editors were prohibited from participating (Sport and Politics moved my comment from here to above). What I would suggest instead is making two subsections below: "Uninvolved" and "Involved". I have seen this done before and it seems to work ok. Cla68 (talk) 06:03, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Sport and Politics: I also think it would be extremely hard for other editors to read the article in html format and that they won't be able to click and jump to the sources listed. If you want others to comment on the article, you should undo the delete so they can read it in plain "web" format. (Showmebeef (talk) 06:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC))
The sources are in the diff if you want to add the text here please feel free. The sources are not what is at issue here. What is at issue here is if the actual item warrants inclusion. There is also little chance of an objective debate from uninvolved editors if the users who are at odds with each other fill up the RfC with their sides of the discussion and their claims and counter claims. Its an attempt to keep the RfC as clean and objective as possible. Otherwise the RfC will lose its value and purpose. Sport and politics (talk) 12:34, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Sport & Politics: Thank's for tidying up the article. .

You claimed that there was nothing controversial going on, yet have removed any mention of controversy regarding the use of technology, despite repeated claims in the reputable literature that using technology in sport to gain an advantage in hghly controversial. Have you now accepted this fact?

You have also removed the paragraph explaining the relative improvement in GBs position between the world championships and the Olympics, and the decision not to use available technology during the World championships earlier in the year. Of course this means that the other teams wouldn't have the time to react or complain. Although, this doesn't conclusively proove technology was a factor, but it strongly indicates that it might have been, and explains why other teams suspicions weren't founded on paranoia, as you claim.

You have wrote

Team GB won seven out of the ten golds contested on bicycles which were exclusivly developed for the London Olympics. The GB bicycles and rider equipment at the Games was declared legal by the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) and passed fit for use under its sporting code

Changed from

The British teams sudden dominance attracted suspicion from competing teams partly because the bikes were newly introduced for the London Games, and the British team subsequently won seven out of the ten golds contested compared to six out of nineteen four months earlier in the UCI World Championships during which the team opted to keep them under wraps

When all the evidence points in one direction, isn't it up to authors to carry out research to attempt to refute it rather than just adding question marks adding further work for other authors to further justify every minute detail. For example have you contacted the cycling journal for their sources?

All the banners and questonmarks make the article look like idle speculation rather than a topic in which there is good quantitative data to show that an absolute and relative improvement in times are possible due to technology, that technology was applied discrimately between the teams in an attempt to gain an advantage, even the person in charge even admits this! There is also clear evidence of flouting the rules.

A point aside, are there any rules on Misplaced Pages were individuals are required to declare conflicts of interest (Nationality, Profession etc), since this might be highly relevent this and other articles on national reporting of spoting achievements and controversies. --Andromedean (talk) 12:18, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

"When all the evidence points in one direction, isn't it up to authors to carry out research to attempt to refute it rather than just adding question marks adding further work for other authors to further justify every minute detail" No -it is not up to editors to interpret the evidence at all, one way or the other, that is the point of WP:SYNTHESIS. The section cobbles together a few opinions and comes out with a WP:POV conclusion of a controversy. Taking comments made by defeated athletes and coupling them with a range of older articles talking about the advantages of technology is not an acceptable way of constructing a section. No mention is made of how any other nation has benifited from similar technology, to the point where the entire thing reads like a biased attack on GB. As I've said previously no time is spent considering the measures that the British team put in place aside form bikes/skinsuits etc to help them win. Pointing out an improvement over the World Championships is barely a valid argument; the advantage of being at home isn't considered, a comparison to the results in Beijing is also ignored. The mention of the LZR swim suits is entirely irrelevant here and is just used as a crutch for a separate discussion on cycling technology. Your implied lack of good faith in the above comment is also not a good sign. To summarise the tone of the section; Technology helps athletes. Britain did well. Britain used technology. No rules were broken. = Britain bad. - Basement12 (T.C) 13:32, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
The re-wording of the section is because the section is not written in a neutral way. It is written in a way which implies GB Cycling and Germany Cycling are cheats. There was a similar section on Ye Shewin a Chinese Swimmer who won Gold Medals at London 2012. That was removed due to possible BLP violations & for it being nothing more than sore losers and a conspiracy theory. No rules were broken by her and no positive drugs test were attributed to her. This is exactly the same here, no rules have been broken by GB Cycling or Germany Cycling and none of their cyclists were found to have been taking any substances banned by WADA. The use of phrasing such as "The British teams sudden dominance attracted suspicion from competing teams" and comparing performances from the World Cup and the Olympics are not neutral and fuel a negative slant that team GB are cheats. There has been no substantiation that team GB cheated in anyway. The only thing that happened was mainly the French disliked being beaten by the British and were pretty sore losers over it. As for any CoI and declaring things that is not needed here as the section is not neutral in anyway it is biased and pushes the POV the team GB and Germany Cycling cheated. As for the banners implying it is "idle speculation" that is all it is, with a Team GB and Germany Cycling cheated POV slant and Synthesis of Information from Original Research carried out. There is also no "clear evidence of flouting the rules" that is the main bulk of the synthesis. The synthesis implies there is "clear evidence of flouting the rules" when in fact there is none. In answer to the point "isn't it up to authors to carry out research". No it is not. It is up to all editors to ensure the article is written in an unbiased, neutral way and in such a way that does not give undue weight to a specific POV. Carrying out own research is Original Research and must not be carried out and included on Misplaced Pages. It is not up to individual editors to present it so that "all the evidence points in one direction" that is POV pushing and being biased. Finally the statement "even the person in charge even admits this!" is just unfounded. That makes it sounds like he said "Yes. We cheated and the UCI know about. Look, we got away with it." That is not what happened all. All that happened was GB Cycling decided to use the rules where they could to gain as much of a LEGAL and FAIR advantage as permitted by the rules. It is not controversial that they had the money to spend on it either as other nations which did well at the Olympics e.g. China in the Table Tennis and Badminton were they won all the Gold Medals or the Untied States in the Swimming where they won 16 Golds 9 Silvers and 6 Bronze or Russia in the Rhythmic Gymnastics and Synchronised Swimming where they won all the Gold Medals. They all spent vast sums. At NO POINT were any rules broken by GB cycling or Germany Cycling.
This is no different to a Marathon runner having different food and rehydration mixes in his bottle to another athlete or wearing footwear that was moulded to his feet. It would be ludicrous to say that the winner of the Marathon only won because he and his nutritionist were gaining an unfair advantage by giving him top of the end drink mixes and food which were allowed by the rules and his extensive training was irrelevant. It would be mad to say he only won the marathon because he was wearing better shoes than the person in second. That is what this section attempts to imply and it is an unfounded claim which is just a conspiracy theory, with no place on Misplaced Pages. Sport and politics (talk) 14:25, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't think some contributers are acting in good faith because they are claiming the references don't say what they clearly do as a simple search would confirm, and there are no attempts to find the answers to any genuine questions they ask, just to be obstructive, add work to others and try to slowly dilute the content so it becomes none controversial. Just one example

However, cycling has seen the most impressive technological contribution. For example, 100% of the 221% improvement in the one hour cycling record could be attributed to developments in bicycle aerodynamics.

was changed to

In cycling technology has contributed to changes in bicycles.

Yeah they added tyres and a chain!!! Is the Pope a Catholic?

You are clearly acting irresponsibly — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andromedean (talkcontribs) 15:43, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The phrase "100% of the 221% improvement" is confusing and misleading as it implies that anyone who sits on a highly aerodynamic bicycle will do better than a top athlete on a regular bicycle. It implies the rider makes no difference to the end result. Also the hour record is nothing to do with the Olympics as the One Hour Race is not on the Olympic Programme.
"However, cycling has seen the most impressive technological contribution" is a claim made without proper foundation, context, clarification, reference point, validation or verification. It is also not neutral as it again implies it is the technology and not the cyclist that achieves the results. The implications of that sentence is to basically say the bicycle not the cyclist should get the medal, as anyone could sit on and pedal, it makes no difference to the end result.
I also fail to see any substantiation of the claims of irresponsibility or that I am not acting in Good faith. I also cannot see that Andromedeanis not acting in Good Faith. Please can all contributors remember not to comment on the contributors and only to comment on the content.
I would also like to point out it is the responsibility of ALL editors NOT everyone else to ONLY add material which is from a neutral and unbiased point of view which is verified by a reliable sources which reflect the ACTUAL and not IMPLIED or PERCEIVED content being added. Sport and politics (talk) 16:15, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
Of course it doesn't mean that, it means what it says, that aerodynamics reduces times (or increases distances in this case) independantly of a riders own physical ability. So if two riders are of approximately equal ability the one on the more aerodynamic cycle would most likely win, and potentially a lesser rider could beat a better one depending on the level of difference. I don't believe you don't understand this! The fact that a 1 hour contest is not used in the Olympics is hardly relevent, aerodynamics is clearly going to benefit any cyclist travelling at speed! --Andromedean (talk) 16:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
I do see that. It appears what is missed here is that is not a controversy. Just because someone has better equipment, better training facilities and better nutrition doesn't make it a controversy. It is just a fact. It is also not cheating. It is also not an unfair advantage. It is also not the fault of the athletes with the stuff or the athletes without the stuff. It is also not the fault of the governing bodies and the sporting codes. it is also is not immoral or unethical. It is also not against the Olympic code or Olympic spirit. This is not a controversy. The implications are spending money to reach the top is cheating. When it is not. It is an implication the spending money to advance technology is cheating. When its not. It is also implying that using all of the rules, what the rules say and legally interpreting the rules in a way others have not is cheating. It is not. No cheating or any unfair advantages occurred and this is in no way a controversy. The section is based on synthesis of sources which do not say cheating occurred or any unfair advantages occurred. What the sources say is that technology is advancing and is meaning that performances are getting better. It is not explicitly saying GB Cycling cheated or gained an unfair advantage. Also the Engineering article poses a question and pushes a POV, it doesn't say that GB cycling actually gained an unfair advantage or cheated. This section is not encyclopaedic and should not be included. Sport and politics (talk) 19:41, 22 August 2012 (UTC):

I must admit reading it again it doesn't look very controversial. ..........Oh I forgot you have taken out the controversial bits!

The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) considers prohibiting technologies if they are ‘performance-enhancing’ or ‘being against the spirit of the sport’. In 2006 WADA initiated a consultation on ‘Technology doping’ which is now officially recognized as a threat. The decision to allow or ban a new technology, is also the responsibility of each sport’s own governing body. However, these regulations can be breached. --Andromedean (talk) 20:08, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Could you inform us what a team would be required to do to 'technology dope'. Perhaps you think it means putting an engine in the cycle?

Seriously, the behaviour of these agencies themselves come under question here after what they said they would do. What is going on here, how have they been influenced, why are they turning a blind eye? This is far more controversial than I realised after first writing the section, it is down right scandulous! No wonder seventy per cent of the French say that the British cyclists at London 2012 have cheated.--Andromedean (talk) 20:17, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

It is not a controversy as it is not the fault of Team GB Cycling Germany Cycling any of the officials working at the Olympics or any of cyclists. The section has been re-written in a neutral way which does not give off an impression that GB Cycling or German Cycling cheated in any way. There are forums on the internet where "technology doping" can be discussed and how it can be achieved. Misplaced Pages is though not the pace for this. I am not going to engage in any discussion or debates over what is & isn't and what could & couldn't be considered or is "technology doping" that is not for Misplaced Pages. As for the claims of corruption in sporting agencies that is again not for here unless actual corruption can be fully substantiated and proved not implied and conjectured. then that again has no place on Misplaced Pages. That is for a debate or forum somewhere else. Finally the claims made by the French regarding "cheating" by GB cycling are unsubstantiated conjecture and are once again not for discussion or debate on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is for fully verified and reliably sourced relevant subject matter. Wikiepdia is not for synthesised conjecture, biased opinions and things which are frankly made up by sore losers. Sport and politics (talk) 20:35, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
In which case I suggest you actually read the report Sports Engineering: An Unfair Advantage? and re-insert the material stated in it which you have take out.

--Andromedean (talk) 21:58, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I am not going to be entering in to an academic discussion on the meanings of the source or the POV of the source or the meanings of sources in general. Discussion and debates of that nature are not for Misplaced Pages. If there is a want for a debate and a discussion on issue of this nature please do so in the appropriate forum or discussion board, not here on Wikiedia which in an encyclopaedia. Sport and politics (talk) 22:05, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Just a quick note here (as it's getting late) after I edited the article. I really don't know how Sport and politics can claim he's acted in good faith when he edited this piece. There are several places he asked for citation when it is clearly in the referenced source. Similarly he proclaimed that the original editor made synthesis when quoting Boardman--the original paragraph is straight from the source. I don't really know what's the basis for that. Also look at the last paragraph which he's edited--it's just plain sloppy writing--with grammatical mistakes which I left it there, again asking for citation when it's clearly in the source.
I want to comment on the new postings here but I am running out of time. I will try to post tomorrow. (Showmebeef (talk) 06:46, 23 August 2012 (UTC))
The whole section should just be removed as it is a synthesised conspiracy theory with no place here on Misplaced Pages. The section as originally worded was biased insinuation which asserted that basically GB cycling and Germany cycling were cheats. Nothing of the sort occurred. To make that claim, assertion and insinuation by using sources which do not say that is synthesis.
I have acted in nothing but good faith and shouldn't have to make that clear, with other users making unfounded claims of bad faith. I have attempted to clean up the section by removing the weasel phrasing insinuation and bias. Although I still favour its total removal. If other editors want to demonstrate their good faith they should be bold and improve the section, rather than focusing on other contributors. If there are grammatical errors fix them, don't complain about the editor who made them. Be constructive not disruptive.
I would also like to remind all editors to always assume all editors are acting in good faith. Another user was banned for not acting in good faith and making unwarranted personal accusations against other editors on this topic. If there is genuine and verifiable evidence of bad faith editing please discuss that on the editors talk page and not here. Also please provide policy and diffs when making any claims. If that cannot be done then keep all personal comments personal and do not share them.
Finally Misplaced Pages is not a place for synthesis or unsubstantiated claims. The places where sources have been asked for are for bits which are not directly covered by the sources or it is not clear from that the source covers that claim being made. If it can be shown the sources cover the bit asking for a source then name the source and add the source to that bit as well. Alternatively add a fresh reliable source directly verifying the text. Do not comment on other users. Focus on the actual content being discussed here. Internet forums and discussion boards can be found which are away from Misplaced Pages if there is a want to continue chatting about this conspiracy theory and other claims which have been synthesised in this section. Sport and politics (talk) 09:27, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

I think we can all agree that technology can be used to the advantage of Olympic athletes, and there is no issue with including a well referenced section on such a topic if it is shown to be relevant to these Games. However, the issue here is that the section as its stands amounts to synthesis and an attack on one or two particular nations. What we have are;

A) sources that deal with how the use of technology can be an advantage in cycling and also sources that detail steps that must be taken (sale to the public etc) to ensure bikes conform to the rules; B) details on the British team's success at these Games and some sources saying they have spent significant amounts of money on developing technology. What has then happened is that A & B have been put together to come out with our C(ontroversy) - that GB, and to a lesser extent Germany, have in effect cheated to obtain success. A + B, therefore C.

For this section to be included in its current form what we need are reliable sources (not blogs or fringe opinions in obscure journals/magazines/etc that would constitute WP:UNDUE) that state categorically that the achievements of riders at these Games were due to the use of bikes/other technology that if properly looked at would be against the rules, preferably with an explaination of exactly how the specific technology in question benefitted them. The section needs to be written from a neutral point of view, if no rules were broken, as currently appears to be the case, then singling out the British (and maybe German) team isn't acceptable; having the resources to build better bikes than the other nations isn't doing anything wrong and you can bet every other nation was trying to do the same with the money they had. It is no more controversial than a nation having the money to build better training facilities or provide better coaching - on some level most sporting achievement comes down to the funding.

What we may be able to work towards is adding some of the information on cycling to Technology doping. - Basement12 (T.C) 15:57, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for adding this break the sections get very unwieldy. I don't think we need to get distracted on what is technically legal or not. We are not prosecuting teams only deciding what is controversial. I have included information which shows that 'technology doping' is considered highly controversial by the public, not only because of the competitive advantage but also due to the way it makes the sport easier to break records which is hardly fair on past athletes, it is also unfair on poor nations which can't afford to compete. So hopefully that wraps this issue up and we can move on now. May I also suggest if anyone has any issues with they remainder of the article they actually read the references and search for what has been copied from them, rather than claiming they are incorrectly referenced. Could they also perform their own work if they wish to refute anything rather than just insulting reputable sites from well informed contributors and adding unwarranted 'synthesis' typpe comments.--Andromedean (talk) 17:37, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
"We are not prosecuting teams only deciding what is controversial" - No, we should not be deciding anything that's one of the problem's here. The issue is nowhere near wrapped up, in fact you've readded other information that makes it worse. The whole paragraph that begins "The British teams dominance" is entirely inappropriate as it juxtaposes their success with the idea of the controversy without providing any sources that link the two. Implying that the increase in medals is part of the controversy is pure WP:OR, one of your own sources even says "that haul of medals is in itself hardly a surprise". The mention of the French team's comments needs to be removed entirely as they were just wild accusations akin to those made against Chinese swimmers by the Americans (which have been wiped from all WP articles as a violation of BLP policy). Please stop trying to avoid the issues by padding out the section with a load of guff with no direct relation to these Games - Basement12 (T.C) 18:16, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
"I think we can all agree that technology can be used to the advantage of Olympic athletes"--agree. However, I disagree with your postulate of what makes this subject controversial: "What has then happened is that A & B have been put together to come out with our C(ontroversy) - that GB, and to a lesser extent Germany, have in effect cheated to obtain success. A + B, therefore C." I don't think that's how that makes it a controversy. Instead,it's like this:
A) Technologies can be used to gain advantage in a competition, which at times can be significant and unfair to other competitors who are not using these technologies for various reasons.
B) There are times the governing bodies can't response quickly enough to institute rules to clearly identify these advances as significant and unfair and install rules to remove or reduce these advantages.
We are in a period of time with a trend where millions are spent to create a technological edge in the sports of cycling where it takes 1/1000 sec to determine the results, and this trend has climaxed at the London Olympics. And this is also a time that the cycling governing body does not have a clear definition of "technology doping" when it comes to cycling equipment. When certain teams lead in this effort, and safe guide its finding so others are left without access to them, that's what makes it a controversy.
This is the nature of doping, in particular "technology doping" where the governing bodies are always doing catch up work--something new appears that is deemed to create a significant and unfair advantage, it takes time for it realize the significance and come up with a counter measure to combat its effect. This is exactly the path it took for the LZR Racer to be recognized (2008 Beijing Olympics and 2009 World Aquatics Championships) and ultimately banned.
To sum up,
1. I agree that we shouldn't put too much emphasis on the British team, or the German, Australian, for that matter, when covering this topic. I think we should put the emphasis on the trend leading to this Olympics.
2. I don't agree on the premises that since no rule is broken, therefore this is not a controversy. When LXR Racer swimmer suits were first introduced, and up until 2009 ruling, it broke no rule. Yet it was a huge controversy.
3. Does it belong here? I say yes. As mentioned, the LXR Racer was deemed a controversy, which peeked at the 2009 Aquatics game where nearly all modern records were broken and which earned its name of "Plastic Games" and a "controversy" section on its Wiki page. Same reasoning apply here.
BTW. The Ye Shiwen case was again brought up and compared here to this case. I've stated earlier that the comparison was without merit--Ye's achieved what she has through training and training only (well, you can count her large feet and hands as a factor, but she's born with them, just like Phelps and Thorpe). The comparison would only be valid if the following hypothetical scenario is true (for illustrative purpose only):
The Chinese sports authority has spent millions into the research of some food supplement which prove to provide an advantage to its swimmers. However, the supplement contains no substance that is currently listed as a doping agent. It chose to not use the supplement in the 2011 world championship but wait until the London Olympics instead. Subsequently, it's medal haul has increased from 2011's 3 to 7 (not just to Ye but across the board) this time at London. If this scenario is true then I would call it a controversy and I don't think anybody would have a problem of including it here in this section.
Sorry to conjure up this hypothesis, but my point is the comparison of Ye's case to this one is without merit--the removal of Ye's case from this section does not imply that this case should be too. (Showmebeef (talk) 21:56, 23 August 2012 (UTC))
I use the Ye comparison only for the comments made by the French team not the issue as a whole. What the French team insinuated was that the wheels the British were using were different from everyone else's, this was denied by the both the manufacturers and the British team and the French have no evidence whatsoever for it - therefore we should not be including such unfounded accusations in an encyclopaedia. I'm not disagreeing that this could be a controversy but it's link specifically to these Olympics is tenuous; it's an issue that has always been present within the sport and, as with the swimsuits, it is one that involves a huge number of competitors from a huge number of nations so unless a certain team actually broke a rule there no reason to single them out - Basement12 (T.C) 22:29, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
We do need to make our minds up what constitutes a controversy because you refuse to include the quotes in the literature which says it is. You and Sport&Politics have removed them! Do you want them back in or not? Make up your mind. However, you do wish to divert the subject onto a different heading. Whether the technology is currently legal, and if not by synthesis assume that everything that is legal must not be controversial! It is you and Sport&Politics who are making assumptions and have the political agenda here. An agenda to censor the essential fact that technology can provide a relative advantage to an athlete, and this can easily change placings in an event. --Andromedean (talk) 19:44, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
Please stop ignoring and misrepresenting our views. By my count four different editors have removed the section. No one is doing this because they doubt that technology can play a role, they are doing it because of the biased and POV way in which the section is written. Not one source used indicates that the increase in British medals has anything to do with the technology, not one source suggests that other teams are not spending everything thay can on their on technology. I have therefore removed this section and reworded the rest to indicate that the advantage Britain and Germany had was building their own custom bikes. Readers can access the sources and draw their own conclusions, it is not for us, as an encyclopaedia to lead them one way or another - Basement12 (T.C) 20:18, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
No source could conclude this with 100% certainty, how could they without the details of the tests, they may have had asudden surge in form, however the bikes are most likely since this was te one variable which was changed. Moreober, this is what would be expected from what Boardman said, and that's exactly what happened. Why not state the medals before and after the bikes were introduced and let the reader make up their own mind? The fact that GB didn't opt to use the bike even though it was available is also significant, since this prevents their opponents from reacting, something which was certainly against the spirit of the rules.--Andromedean (talk) 21:58, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

showmebeef note: moved here from "Edit Notes" section

I have little doubt that people with national interests at heart will attempt to use any lame excuse to censor this article. The fact remains this was a genuine controversy and related far more to the London Olympics than any other, not least because the governing bodies had laid rules down to stop technological doping by the time of the London Olympics, and the teams used underhand methods of flouting them. No other example exemplifies this more than the British cycling team who were setting records every time they rode, despite indifferent performances in the four years before the new bikes were introduced--Andromedean (talk) 13:08, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Please stop making unfounded claims of conflicts of interest here and remember to assume good faith at all times from all contributors. Just because a contributor makes comments and expresses a view on the content which is disagreed with by other contributors does not give the contributor who disagrees the right to make unfounded claims and not assume good faith.
There is also no conclusive and hard evidence presented to support the claim "governing bodies had laid rules down to stop technological doping by the time of the London Olympics, and the teams used underhand methods of flouting them. No other example exemplifies this more than the British cycling team who were setting records every time they rode, despite indifferent performances in the four years before the new bikes were introduced". There is simply no evidence to support this. All there is though is insinuation, synthesis, POV pushing and frankly jealousy from the teams beaten. Please stop making these baseless claims as if there are incontrovertible facts. They are not for here on Misplaced Pages, those kinds of claims are for discussion boards and forums away from Misplaced Pages where this conspiracy theory can be debated to death without challenge. It is also not "people with national interests at heart will attempt to use any lame excuse to censor this article" that is just not what is occurring here. What is occurring is the upholding of encyclopaedic standards and maintaining rules laid out preventing wild unfounded claims created by synthesis from being allowed to be added and presented as fact.
I would also like to point out the "fact" of this being a "genuine controversy and related far more to the London Olympics than any other" is wholly untrue (even if some contributors genuinely believe it to be the case), this is simply an opinion, based only in original research and synthesis. This is just a conspiracy theory and nothing more, with no place on Misplaced Pages. Sport and politics (talk) 14:19, 24 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Showmebeef (talkcontribs)
On what basis are you declaring that this article is "based ONLY in original research and synthesis"? Can you list them to support your claim? Also you have not provided anything to support the "disputed" tag that you have slapped on this article repeatedly.
Efforts have been made by various editors to eliminate OR and SYN and all statements have been supported by secondary sources. If there are ones that are not, point them out and let other editors improve on them. Labeling it as a "conspiracy theory" won't make it one no matter how many times you repeat it! (Showmebeef (talk) 21:58, 24 August 2012 (UTC))

Editing notes, requests and Q&As

I believe this article has reached certain maturity now. With that in mind, I hope all editors involved pay due respect to other editors' contribution (which should have been the case in the first place), and provide their reasons when deleting from, or adding to, the article. This place should serve as Q&A forum where we can ask questions and (hopefully) get the answers when questions arise with regard to deletion or addition by other editors.

First, an editing note: Is there a reason why quotes from Boardman are listed in "blockquote"? It's rather unusual for a section article to adopt such a format. I would recommend put them inline. It is not sure whether boardman actually said what is listed in the first quote--the source only paraphrased him. Also the leading sentence is changed from what is in the source for the second quote. I am also not sure why the phrase "the technologies" is inserted there. I would like to revert them back to what is exactly provided in the source.

Now questions: Sports and Politics has just added a "disputed" tag to the article. Can you point out what facts are being disputed so we can try to resolve them?

Sports and politics: I have explicitly asked you to list the "facts" you deemed disputable to justify the "disputed" tag but you haven't. Now you've re-inserted the tag without providing any justification, again! Any other editors have issue with this?! (Showmebeef (talk) 19:25, 24 August 2012 (UTC))

Also S&P has deleted the paragraph: "Technology can also play a role in cycling, with about 100 percent out of the 221 percent overall improvement in the one-hour cycling record coming from better bicycle aerodynamics." I believe the paragraph is rather important as it shows technology has provided huge improvement in cycling equipment, which is what this article is all about. I would like to revert them back. (Showmebeef (talk) 02:32, 24 August 2012 (UTC))

Agree with all your comments showmebeef. What are your views on omitting the comparative medal toll, improved times and keeping the available technology under wraps in the world championships. Although far from perfect, it is the most important objective piece of information that a reader could use to arrive to their own conclusions. Is this something we could conceed, providing the other issues are dealt with?--Andromedean (talk) 05:29, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Please remember this is an Olympics article the hour record is nothing to do with the Olympics. Sport and politics (talk) 08:03, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
The hour record is used in the original source to illustrate the significance of improvement in aerodynamics of cycling equipment, which is relevant to this article . It has nothing to do with the fact that it's not an Olympics sport. (Showmebeef (talk) 16:41, 24 August 2012 (UTC))
The Article is about the Olympics if you want to talk about cycling in general and the hour record in general take it to the cycling pages and don't clutter up here. Sport and politics (talk) 18:39, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Regarding comparative medal toll, improved times: there is no proof that there is a direct correlation between that and technology introduced to their bikes by the GB team. You need to quote a reputable source to make that claim. As for keeping equipments under wrap--no, that doesn't prove anything and any team can choose to do that for various reasons. Wiki mandates that you need to support your statement with WP:SOURCES (Showmebeef (talk) 16:41, 24 August 2012 (UTC))
Showmebeef No such claim could be made neither have I suggested we make it. However, it is as relevent as any other improvement in performance, especially improvements in times, it would be up to the reader to make a judgement on how much, if any, came from technology, and how much from an improvement in athletic performance. Keeping technology under wraps until just before the olympics was controversial because it was against the spirit of the rules; the UCI wanted technology to be available to other teams. A third important issue which has been quietly taken out is that all this technology can't be used efficiently peicemeal, it needs to be optimised for each rider which takes even more time, testing and expense. Hence if any one team drags their heels in releasing the technology the others don't have a chance of using it because of the long lead time. All this is clear from the references, and is all highly relevent to London 2012 and the GB team: --188.220.205.42 (talk) 17:14, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
I see where you are coming from and all your reasoning could probably serve as good basis for argument in a regular forum for debate over this issue. But Wiki is an encyclopedia and we can only quote facts or reputable sources. I had undergone the same initial phase (probably still am) when I first started editing Wiki. For the tactic of delaying the release of technology--it is mentioned in the article RE: nine months lead time. You could probably rewrite the paragraph to highlight the issue. (Showmebeef (talk) 18:49, 24 August 2012 (UTC))
  • I have created this section with the expressed intention for it to be used for exchanging notes re: editing the article. Pls continue the rebate RE: controversy, inclusion issues in the above section. ps. I have moved some comments there already.
This discussion section is not for Misplaced Pages. If you wish to "exchange notes" on this conspiracy theory please do so away from Wikieida. Wikipeida articles are also not for "the most important objective piece of information that a reader could use to arrive to their own conclusions" that is for academic debate away from Wikiepdia. If you wish to continue this please do so away from Wikiepdia. I suggest a reading of what Misplaced Pages is not. Sport and politics (talk) 18:39, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
I believe I can rightfully ignore some bellicose rhetoric here. If some don't see my effort at trying to bring some civility and order here, then they are blind. (Showmebeef (talk) 19:14, 24 August 2012 (UTC))
This is a civil discussion. It is just the content of the discussion has no place on Misplaced Pages as it has now devolved in to the deabte on a conspiracy theory and not facts or anything reputable. I would also like to point out the whole section is fully disputed as opposed to just individual facts. Sport and politics (talk) 19:37, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Andromedean: Source you used for "The British track cycling team introduced new bicycles for London 2012" is incorrect. Maybe you meant to use that for the statement that GB "won seven out of ten events". (Showmebeef (talk) 22:23, 24 August 2012 (UTC))
The source should be the WSJ I will change it when it is unlocked. --Andromedean (talk) 07:51, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments on recent changes 19:40, 24 August 2012‎

  • I think it's still better to use "The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) considers..." as the leading paragraph as it introduces WADA's policy and the concept of "technology doping". A side note is that although the sentence "...people fear that sports engineering..." helps explain the rationale behind "anti-doping", it's rather assumed. In an effort to compact the article to make it less bloated and concise, I suggest we remove it.
  • I think the sentence "Senior officials from Australia and France..." is rather contentious within the context. The source used doesn't directly support the point the paragraph is trying to illustrate. I suggest merging this paragraph with the 3rd paragraph "The British and German teams were the only..." Showmebeef (talk) 16:44, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
The inclusion of the number of world records and medals won is still entirely inappropriate. It is leading the reader to conclude that the medals were won as a result of the technology when none of the sources draw this conclusion. This makes no allowances for the fact that not all of the events at a World Championship are contested at the Olympics (if anything the comparison should be only for Olympic events), the boost any nation gets from home advantage or other changes but in place by GB (for example see - Basement12 (T.C) 17:24, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I agree we should compare only the Olympic events and I also agree that there is no exclusive evidence to support the view. Showmebeef (talk) 06:52, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
  • I took the liberty of making the changes I mentioned, and some. Feel free to amend. Along the way I also took some effort to trim the piece of some fat, such as using numerals in place of words for numbers. Showmebeef (talk) 17:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the unfounded and leading claims from the section. I have also done some minor syntax changes and acronym expansion. The current version which I have edited it to is wholly neutral as compared to the previous version which was still pushing a POV on unfairness and cheating with no foundation. Some editors will want to put back in the unrelated guff and crutches and pejoratives which have been removed but first think a is this relevant and b is this neutral in its presentation. If not then don't add it or find a neutral and non pejorative way of adding it. Sport and politics (talk) 18:40, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Please refer to my comments in the next section regarding these deletions. I would like to stress the fact that all statements in the article (before you made the changes) are backed by secondary sources so there is no POV.
  • "unfairness and cheating"--the article does not make those statement.
  • "put back in the unrelated guff and crutches and pejoratives"--pardon me, where is the "good faith" we have been extorting about all along? Showmebeef (talk) 06:52, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
I thought this was a very useful article to quote in view that there are still some people claiming the performance wasn't controversial. In what respect doesn't it support that senior French and Australian officials were puzzled?
"France were not the only team puzzled at the extent of Britain's progress since the Melbourne championships four months ago. Although he believes the home crowd played a motivating role, Australia's high performance director Kevin Tabotta said: "There's been a bit of thought as to how the gap has become so big since Melbourne." But the French were the most vociferous. Admitting she was "puzzled", French track cycling chief Isabelle Gautheron told AFP: "They haven't dominated for the past four years, they were among the best teams in the world along with Australia, Germany and France. "Here, they're crushing everybody."
--Andromedean (talk) 20:19, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
They can be as puzzled as they like but unless they have some evidence of wrong doing it is nothing more than wild speculation unworthy of inclusion in an encyclopaedia - Basement12 (T.C) 21:01, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Showmebeef That's an interesting edit you attempted there before Sport&Politics wrecked it. "Research shows that 100 percent of the 221 percent overall improvement in the one-hour record could be attributed to developments in bicycle aerodynamics." I interpreted that as meaning 100/221=45% was attributal to aerodynamics not all of it? Surely athletic improvement contributes to it as well?--Andromedean (talk) 19:20, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I interpret it as follows: there is a 221% improvement...and 100% of that improvement is due to A, so I rephrased it as "the 221% improvement is ENTIRELY (100%) due to A". The original sentence is a bit awkward. Showmebeef (talk) 04:51, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
To resolve this ambiguity I wrote to the source mentioned in the article, my email is as follows: Professor Haake I have been reading the report on Sports Engineering, An Unfair Advantage? It includes a statement attributed to yourself which says '100% of the 221% improvement in the one hour cycling record could be attributed to developments in bicycle aerodynamics.' Does this mean 100/221=45% of the improvement is due to aerodynamics?

Yes, you are correct. The data was taken from a paper where the % changes were being compared which is why it was written like this.Steve S.J.Haake@shu.ac.uk

Hopefully this resolves this confusion. --Andromedean (talk) 10:19, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The above only goes to prove the confusion to the uninitiated reader and as such shows it is not easily accessible to all users of the encyclopaedia so it has no place on Misplaced Pages as it is far too easily confusing as clearly demonstrated above. Remember Misplaced Pages must be accessible to all not just the writer or those with specialist knowledge. Sport and politics (talk) 10:28, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
clarifying a potentially ambiguous statement (although it was clear to me) is hardly a reason for exclusion since the statement is no longer ambiguous after clarification! You are really eager to censor objective information. If you wish to change anything, do the work like I have.--Andromedean (talk) 11:03, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
The fact it needed clarifying proves it is an "ambiguous statement". Ambiguity prevents uninitiated users accessing the information so must be removed are substantially re-worded to remove all ambiguity. There is no user is "eager to censor objective information" just a necessity to rid Misplaced Pages of ambiguous, unfounded, pejorative, POV pushing, synthesis which is written in a biased, derogatory and sensationalist manner implying unfounded and baseless claims of dishonesty, cheating and corruption. This section does all of that and needs removing. Plenty of reasoning has been provided and more than enough Misplaced Pages Policy has been provided clearly showing how inappropriate this section is. It is time now to come off the "must include" wagon and accept this is not objective, (unless the objective is to try and create a picture of cheating which does not exist) and is just original research. Sport and politics (talk) 11:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Please refrain from pejorative language implying bad faith such as "wrecked it". The interpretation you have just demonstrated how unclear and confusing the statement is. It also demonstrates the POV pushing occurring by basically portraying it as just technology leading to the lower times and that the athletes and nutritionists and track themselves had anything to do with the lower times. This is though for a place outside of Wikiepdia to debate. Sport and politics (talk) 19:43, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Sport&Politics you keep removing objective data so readers can't make judgements for themselves, yet you don't propose any viable alternative. I have not potrayed any improvement as being just technology, 100% of 210% = 45% of the improvement in the 1 hr distance was attribital to aerodynamics. The relative medals and record toll are also relevent and should be included. It provides a basis for the reader to make a judgement. It is precisely for this reason you wan't to remove any indication of a sudden improvement. There is no synthesis or bias, only censorship of the essential facts! --Andromedean (talk) 20:37, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Andromedean - You have repeatedly been given reasons for not including those medal counts, none of which have you refuted with any kind of arguement beyond accusations of COI and censorship. However, for your benefit, let's set them out again.... This is an encyclopaedia, the article must provide facts supported by evidence and sources. There is no claim in any of the sources used that the number of medals won was due to the technology being used, even if they were the information should be presented in a neutral point of view and look at other factors that could have resulted in improved performance. To include the numbers therefore leads the reader to draw conclusions that are not supported and thus amounts to WP:OR - Basement12 (T.C) 20:59, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
You have provided no evidence to justify not including medal counts, only idle speculation that the Olympic games cycling is not representative of the world championship cycling. If you wish to analyse how the GB team performed with respect to the specific events in each case, I would be happy to re-consider this view.
I am fully aware of what an encyclopaedia is used for, FACTS and that is what I provided, hard objective facts which you wish to censor. These would only appear biased to someone who has an agenda of censorship to perpetuate a view that ONLY athletic performance was involved, something very unlikely in view of the evidence provided, as anyone with a cursory knowledge of engineering would conclude. No doubt you are all fully aware of this and that is precisely why you wish to censor it. --Andromedean (talk) 21:50, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Please stop making baseless claims and focus only on the content. Attacking other editors as having "an agenda of censorship" is not warranted on Misplaced Pages. These comments are beginning to have a similar tone to a previous editor who was banned for engaging in personal comments which were unfounded, I would hate to see anyone get banned again for getting carried away with themselves. Please refrain from making comments of a personal nature and only comment to on the content. I would suggest, reading of the five pillars of Misplaced Pages and the neutral, verifiable and synthesis policies of Wikipeida. I also suggest a reading of the civility code. There also seems to be a lack of realisation here. Sport and politics (talk) 23:23, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
  • "Please stop making baseless claims and focus only on the content"--totally agree. Let's do that.
  • "Attacking other editors as having "an agenda of censorship" is not warranted on Misplaced Pages."--likewise, accusing other editors of conjuring up "conspiracy theory" is ALSO not warranted on Misplaced Pages. Showmebeef (talk) 06:52, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
I would also like to point out that Wikipeida is not the place "to analyse how the GB team performed with respect to the specific events" That is conducting original research and original research has no place on Wikipeida. You also claim it is only "very unlikely" not proved by the selective sources provided and as it is not verified by the sources it is original research. Sport and politics (talk) 23:42, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments on recent changes, 18:35, 25 August 2012‎

  • With the exception of the "medal count", which was still under discussion at the time, all deletions made in this editing change involve statements that are supported by secondary sources. There are no POV or SYN expressed in those statements. The basic framework of that article was achieved by various editors and was free from POV, OR and SYN artifacts. I therefor ask Sports and politics' justification for making these deletions.
  • Take for example, the statement when quoting Boardman: When Boardman was questioned if this high-tech warfare would put some countries at a disadvantage, he replied, "Well, I'd like to think so, we haven't done our job if they're not." It was directly from the source. I specifically noted in my editing note that I want to quote "what is exactly provided in the source". Could Sports and politics please provide a reason for deleting it? Showmebeef (talk) 06:12, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Calling it "high-tech warfare" is incredibly POV and pejorative. It not actual warfare and is sensationalising. The phrase "some countries at a disadvantage" is also ridiculous POV, which countries are we referring to, and saying "disadvantage" implies team GB are acting unfairly and cheating. I would like to know why there is an insistence on sensationalism and POV here.This being an encyclopaedia it has to remain neutral and unbiased. There were no unfair advantages all no rules were broken so implying as fact is Snythesis and making claims of "cheating" is OR. Also can a single source please be provided which categorically proves without any doubt that the claims of "cheating" and "unfair advantages" and so called "technology-doping" occurred. Not a collection of strands from loads of sources which have been built up to imply all this. Currently no source categorically states Team GB "cheated" by gaining "unfair advantages" through "technology doping". The sources also need to be reliable and not things like opinion pieces, blogs and comments from losing compititors. 09:30, 26 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.151.140.104 (talk)
Chris Boardman has admitted that technology would have given the GB team an advantage. This is clearly placing the teams on an uneven playing field. A survey clearly states that the public are concerned about technology giving teams an advantage. Therefore, on what possible basis is this not controversial? Claims of it not being illegal are completely irrelevent, what is legal in one year can still be controversial and this is as stated in the IMechE report Sports engineering an unfair advantage? There are ways of getting round the regulations as stated in the article. I would suggest you read this. It is written by a reputable organisation and is far superior to most references used in Wiki. --188.220.205.42 (talk) 14:37, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
If it is allowed by the rules and declared legal and all team abide by the same rules it is not unfair in any way. If a runner has more expensive shoes than another runner or shoes moulded to their feet does that make the race unfair? It would be absurd to claim it does. It so uncontroversial that no one is even talking about it outside of these tiny selective sources bought up and by the sore losers. There is an opinion piece of academic discussion bought up from an industry publication (which has been held up as if it is the bible), to attempt to "prove this ". It does nothing of the sort. If nothing else can be found then it is undue weight to one piece and shows no wider notability of this and demonstrates it is not a controversy. It is not for Misplaced Pages to guide or lead readers or speculate on how to "get round" things. Misplaced Pages a is for cold hard facts not insinuation, conjecture and unfounded opinions. 15:21, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

RFC

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There is an ongoing dispute as to weather the above section on sports technology being discussed warrants inclusion in the article. Please look at all sides of the arguments presented and the text in the history of the article here. Is this a genuine controversy or just a conspiracy theory? Sport and politics (talk) 00:27, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

  • Comment. Just to let potential respondents know, Sport and politics has been removing editors' comments from this RfC and placing them in the section above. Cla68 (talk) 22:49, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
The comments are only from the currently involved editors in the dispute and not from any editor who is currently uninvolved in the dispute. Sport and politics (talk) 09:32, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment doesnt appear to be a controversy related to the 2012 Summer Olympics and I dont see why it should be mentioned, but that also applies to some of the other trivia in the article as well. Might be worth a mention in an article related to the specific sport but not here. MilborneOne (talk) 22:11, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment I echo MilborneOne. This is not an issue specific to these games, but pervades sport in general. With Oscar Pistorius' "legs", this crosses the barrier between able-bodied olympics and paralympics too. The LZR episode, for example, was last year. The article is already much too long with material that isn't all that relevant, and I genuinely feel this belongs in the specific sport article if it should be anywhere at all. --Lolo Lympian (talk) 11:34, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
I think this article addresses the title now - what was controversial at the 2012 Olympics, and is by far the best version. Before, the article was led by introductory paragraphs on technological doping in general, and swimsuits in the previous Olympics which made it appear too general, leading to claims that it should be placed in another section altogether. The information on technological doping has now been placed at the end of the section. The swimsuits have been taken out, but could still be mentioned with respect to describing how the regulatory agencies appear to lag technological advances, so what is legal in one Olympics doesn't equate what is eventually deemed to be fair. Let me have your thought on this. --Andromedean (talk) 08:07, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
It doesn't matter how many sources are synthesised or how many times the word controversy is used or how much original research is undertaken. This is still nothing more than a conspiracy theory. 95.151.140.104 (talk) 10:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I still disagree it's an Olympics issue per se. Technological doping is important and one that pervades sport, with each sport having its particularities. Some of it just happened to blow during the Olympics. Timing is coincidental. --Lolo Lympian (talk) 15:06, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Protection

The wrong version of the article has been successfully protected.

I've just fully protected the article for 12 hours because of the edit warring over a section tag. PLEASE discuss proposed changes here instead of edit warring (see WP:BRD). Consider dispute resolution steps, as well. Let me know if it needs to be extended. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:20, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I think the article now more clearly addresses the previous critisisms about controversy and should be retained for discussion.--Andromedean (talk) 08:10, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I think the article still needs to do without the section entirely along with quite a bit more which needs ditching. 95.151.140.104 (talk) 10:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I've begun pruning the article but fully expect reverts to occur so please be prepared to protect the page again. Perhaps until the RfC above has completed. Sport and politics (talk) 19:16, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

If you are expecting reverts, why don't you discuss your proposed deletions first? Cla68 (talk) 12:26, 26 August 2012 (UTC)s
It already has been discussed. I am just expecting reverts due to the nature of the editing in this article. Sport and politics (talk) 15:23, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
It is unlikely a meaningful discussion can take place if many of the reasons why the subject is controversial have been taken out, I would strongly recommend editors to comment against the article which contains all the necessary information here, or better still revert to this and lock it for extended discussion together with an expeienced arbitrator who understands the rules, or else this will carry on going round in circles forever.--Andromedean (talk) 15:42, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Hijab section reverted

Sport and politics, you reverted this section I added. I think the source makes clear that it was a controversy. I think the section should be included, and I think you stop revert warring properly sourced text that people are adding to the article. Cla68 (talk) 12:30, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Its a "so what" section. It is a nothing section and gives the "protest" undue attention. The whole section is predicated on the fact that the under Olympic charter allowing the wearing of the head scarf was a breach of "religious activity" rules. tThis wasn't even demonstrated to have breached the charter it was only claimed to have, not proved to have. What about the athletes who did the sign of the cross or the athletes who celebrated by getting on their knees and making prayer gestures. No complaints were made about those "religious activities" and they were occurring all the time throughout the games. To single this out and single out one minor protest is selective and biased and doesn't present the whole picture. The section is not about a controversy. It is about a tiny politically motivated protest.
Also again it is not revert warring when acting in a bold fashion to remove cruft from an article. If you do not want a section you added removed make sure it actually a noteworthy section for inclusion.Sport and politics (talk) 15:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
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