Revision as of 20:55, 17 October 2012 view sourceGabeMc (talk | contribs)File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers41,831 edits →Sexist comments made against male Wikipedians in a national publication (WSJ): comment← Previous edit | Revision as of 21:17, 17 October 2012 view source GabeMc (talk | contribs)File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers41,831 edits →Sexist comments made against male Wikipedians in a national publication (WSJ): reply to BwilkinsNext edit → | ||
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:::::Introducing this topic on this page is a surreal illustration of the very problem that Tvoz was addressing in the article. The infamous, years-long dispute about whether or not to capitalize the first "t" in "The Beatles" has already been the occasion for a bizarre display of aggression and acrimony that has overflown the confines of numerous polls, mediations and RfCs. It's now spilled over into various other talk pages and now this -- not to mention the national media. It's like the climax of '']'', where the barroom brawl spreads from one sound stage to another, then out into the theater and finally out into the street. Talk about testosterone! ] (]) 05:52, 17 October 2012 (UTC) | :::::Introducing this topic on this page is a surreal illustration of the very problem that Tvoz was addressing in the article. The infamous, years-long dispute about whether or not to capitalize the first "t" in "The Beatles" has already been the occasion for a bizarre display of aggression and acrimony that has overflown the confines of numerous polls, mediations and RfCs. It's now spilled over into various other talk pages and now this -- not to mention the national media. It's like the climax of '']'', where the barroom brawl spreads from one sound stage to another, then out into the theater and finally out into the street. Talk about testosterone! ] (]) 05:52, 17 October 2012 (UTC) | ||
::::::::::('''RIP Mongo''') | ::::::::::('''RIP Mongo''') | ||
:::::: However, let's not forget that some editors are hyper-sensitive in areas such as this. When you have an editor who is willing to be extremely combative over things like a "t"; someone's personal opinion about the cause of battles; or indeed if gets angry if someone says "fuck" every now and then, then the editor clearly needs to be approached differently than most. Indeed, those might be signs that community-based projects are not their forte, but I'm a journalist and not a psychologist. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 09:58, 17 October 2012 (UTC) | :::::: However, let's not forget that some editors are hyper-sensitive in areas such as this. When you have an editor who is willing to be extremely combative over things like a "t"; someone's personal opinion about the cause of battles; or indeed if gets angry if someone says "fuck" every now and then, then the editor clearly needs to be approached differently than most. Indeed, those might be signs that community-based projects are not their forte, but I'm a journalist and not a psychologist. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 09:58, 17 October 2012 (UTC) | ||
::::::: Bwilkins (GP, ESSL), when are ''you'' going to let it go? Our little conflict (which lasted less than three days) was over more than three months ago! Yet every single chance you get you remind people and attempt to antagonize me. I don't care if you , or , or that you , or even that you bragged on Misplaced Pages about , and . I've long since let it go, and perhaps now is a good time for you to as well, before the WSJ does a front-page piece on abusive and potentially sexually inappropriate Misplaced Pages admins. ~ ] <sup>(]|])</sup> 21:17, 17 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
I wouldn't call what Tvoz initially said was sexist; but her subsequent comments do tend to suggest some sexist thinking (of the most on-up-man-ship editors I have come across on Misplaced Pages a good number of them are female, and most are ''older'' individuals). But I also think GabeMC is doing his best to portray Tvoz's stereotype in what looks a lot like a temper tantrum :S Wikipedias social problems are not specifically driven by testosterone or gender, and I suggest Tvoz needs to get beyond those stereotypes to help emphasise her point (if for nothing else to avoid this sort of bickering). The problems are driven by our social structure, the minimal punishment of bad behaviour and anonymity. --''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 10:44, 17 October 2012 (UTC) | I wouldn't call what Tvoz initially said was sexist; but her subsequent comments do tend to suggest some sexist thinking (of the most on-up-man-ship editors I have come across on Misplaced Pages a good number of them are female, and most are ''older'' individuals). But I also think GabeMC is doing his best to portray Tvoz's stereotype in what looks a lot like a temper tantrum :S Wikipedias social problems are not specifically driven by testosterone or gender, and I suggest Tvoz needs to get beyond those stereotypes to help emphasise her point (if for nothing else to avoid this sort of bickering). The problems are driven by our social structure, the minimal punishment of bad behaviour and anonymity. --''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 10:44, 17 October 2012 (UTC) |
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The future of Misplaced Pages
Hello Jimbo. As someone who is now dipping their toes into Misplaced Pages can I ask you how you think it will evolve in the future. As good as it is (and I am impressed by the depth and accuracy of many of the articles) do you see wikipedia continuing for a long time to come yet? As I understand it there is competition out there though not with the same success, but there is bound to be another wiki out there now or in the future that will one day compete. What do you think can be done to stay ahead of the competition? --Jonty Monty (talk) 09:44, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
Ps did you enjoy the bagpipes? :). --Jonty Monty (talk) 09:50, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'll leave space, above, for Jimbo to answer, but Jimbo has made many statements about the future of Misplaced Pages. He has indicated that point-and-click updates to articles, as WYSIWYG edits, are likely to become more popular among a wide range of editors. When asked about millions of articles, he noted the major articles could be translated between the expanding 260 languages, and Misplaced Pages would have far more than 100 million articles. Also, he has noted that he intends to stay involved with Misplaced Pages for many years to come. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:53, 12 October, revised 12:26, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- Personally I see the future of Misplaced Pages being a fairly bleak place but I sincerely hope I am wrong and I continue to edit in the hope that I am. Every day we make it harder for people to edit, particularly those that are not intimately familiar with Misplaced Pages's thousands of rules, policies and guidelines. We block more and more users and IP's for smaller infractions and develop more tools to restrict editing like Pending Changes and ask ourselves why more people aren't editing. Why would they? It is human nature that if something is hard to do, we will do something else so as we implement new ways to make it harder for people to contribute by protecting templates, articles and even entire namespaces we damage the foundation of why Misplaced Pages was established and we erode the concept of "Anyone can edit". We need to get back to our beginnings of Assuming good faith and foster a spirit of cooperation and trust rather than implement new ways of showing our editors, future editors and readers how much we don't trust them and how we think that we need to protect Misplaced Pages and its articles and content from the people we should be hoping will be positive contributors. Kumioko (talk) 21:49, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
- Improvements everywhere as surveyed users said would edit if knew where to help: In one of those WMF surveys, the least worry of editors was the "editing technology" (9% concern). However, more users (41%) said they would edit more if they knew "where to help" and "avoid conflicts" or arguments with other editors. Our coordination tools have had "growing pains" due to time to learn what is effective, while some over-sized templates (or too-small template limits) have hindered quick tasking for editors to follow (1.6 million articles reformat 2-4x slower than needed). The monthly WP:GOCE drives have been fantastic to fix listed articles, averaging "99 copy-edit errors" each. However, I think we could switch other tasks to 2-week edit-drives, to gain people who could not commit for a whole month, and have more short drives. The slow Javascript tool-buttons or over-size templates (I mean S-L-O-W) have been disastrous to "quick-moving people" who do not want to wait "37 seconds" to edit-preview a major article. Hence, the new Template:Cite_quick can show that same article in 10 seconds, and allow 900 cites, not just 400. Tests with the new Lua script cite modules are showing similar results (scaled up because the test2 wiki seems 2x slower than enwiki). Plus, Lua modules can be more complex, and analyze article text faster than ever before, to allow modules to "suggest" other improvements during editing. The edit-window tool buttons are being redone faster. Meanwhile, some bots are getting better: DASHBot is updating citations to insert the archive-URL links, to have fewer deadlinks in future months. The copyvio bots (VWBot) are listing about 20 articles per day, some with "close paraphrase" text. Ironically, that was another area hindered by over-size templates, but the common link-menu Template:La was just updated 40% smaller to allow collaboration pages to be larger without hitting the too-small template limits. As more people discuss templates, from a scientific view, then template limits could be raised to reasonable limits. Just recently, the NewPP preprocessor limits were changed because some French Misplaced Pages templates tried to implement a huge database (knowledge base) in templates (perhaps like {cite_doi}'s 6,000 database subtemplates), and the French template crashed an Apache server (so the template limits were changed). I guess my point is that WP is coming out of the technology "dark ages" where better techniques are being used for templates, plus smart Lua modules, and WYSIWYG editing for newcomers. Plus, Jimbo has been pressing for better tools as well. And those technologies should quicken our coordination tools, without S-L-O-W editing nor asking people to edit during whole one-month drives because the tools were too slow to fix much in two weeks. We could not seriously ask people to help edit major articles if everything stayed as slow as in recent months. Faster editing, faster templates, and smarter tools were needed, and they are being developed in the next 3 months. -Wikid77 21:25, 14 October, 13:06, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
- Hi Wikid77. It was apparent from your first comments onwards that you are extremely au fait with the technology, something I confess to be lacking. It does though appear that Misplaced Pages will not lack any new technology going into the future. Something I'm sure will keep it ahead of the game. Jimbo Wales staying for a few years yet will surely be a benefit. I still don't know if he enjoyed the bagpipes though. :) Oh,and thank you for the replies. Jonty Monty (talk) 13:34, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, the current WP technology is already amazing, when used in streamlined mode. I was stunned to realize an entire huge article, even with small templates and 25 images, can be reformatted within 2 seconds for any user-preference image-size setting. Most readers, with image-size setting as 220px, see a cache-copy of each formatted article within 1/5 second. Also, perhaps some questions for Jimbo should go to email, as I am not sure when Jimbo views comments here as being rhetorical, as musings for other readers, rather than being a direct conversation. He has noted he regularly reads within multiple forum websites, so I am unsure how much time he has to respond here. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
If an article gets a lot of views due to a recent news event
Suicide of Amanda Todd currently has 760,034 views and its existed for less than three days. Is it good to have things like this on Misplaced Pages, to bring people to Misplaced Pages, as well as to help bring attention to a serious problem in society? Its currently up for deletion, with some people saying no. Your opinions please. Dream Focus 07:49, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- "to help bring attention to a serious problem in society" is never a good reason to have an article. Having an article "to bring people to Misplaced Pages" isn't very convincing either, we should have articles because they are on a subject that fits our policies and guidelines, not for external reasons. We want to be a neutral encyclopedia, not a popular forum. Whether we should have that article or not is a fair discussion, but we should certainly not decide to keep it for either of the reasons you provide. Fram (talk) 09:03, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- I was actually just asking the founder of Misplaced Pages for his opinions, but since you posted yours, I'll respond. You say we're not a popular forum, but we cover things that are popular enough to be covered by the media, which is why we seem to have more articles about popular culture than anything else. And the guidelines were never voted on, just argued nonstop by whatever small number of people were around at the time, until one side gave up, and others got their way. Also, see WP:NOTLAW. Dream Focus 09:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- The answer hinges on how we define Misplaced Pages as an "encyclopedia". Since the entire concept of a print encyclopedia has changed over the last two decades, it is open to interpretations that may very well include topics such as the suicide of Amanda Todd. Viriditas (talk) 10:11, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- I was actually just asking the founder of Misplaced Pages for his opinions, but since you posted yours, I'll respond. You say we're not a popular forum, but we cover things that are popular enough to be covered by the media, which is why we seem to have more articles about popular culture than anything else. And the guidelines were never voted on, just argued nonstop by whatever small number of people were around at the time, until one side gave up, and others got their way. Also, see WP:NOTLAW. Dream Focus 09:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- People read about it, they want to know what happened, and we tell them, based on reliable sources. That is appropriate. We can't hijack their eyeballs and turn them somewhere else, but maybe we can do something to put the problem in context - find overall statistics from some of the more obscure sources about the incident that describe the overall problem, for example. We have many degrees of freedom here, and deleting articles because someone doesn't like what they talk about is not the best of them. Wnt (talk) 16:35, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- It sounds like you wish to do original research for the article. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:44, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- People read about it, they want to know what happened, and we tell them, based on reliable sources. That is appropriate. We can't hijack their eyeballs and turn them somewhere else, but maybe we can do something to put the problem in context - find overall statistics from some of the more obscure sources about the incident that describe the overall problem, for example. We have many degrees of freedom here, and deleting articles because someone doesn't like what they talk about is not the best of them. Wnt (talk) 16:35, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- We're one of the most viewed websites in the world, so the first point is not necessary, and "bringing attention to a serious problem in society" through our articles is very, very POV. In this case however, we aren't bringing the attention, Amanda Todd's suicide did. We are merely covering the event and aftermath. I am very often a person who !votes delete on news topics, but in this case, there is a difference between a widely covered news story, and a widely covered news story that causes a significant public debate. The former often adds little value in an encyclopedia, IMNSHO, but the latter does. Resolute 16:50, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages and bullying
Jimbo, Misplaced Pages has a huge problem: bullying. Bullies are easy to recognize. For example, the cyber bully user:Tarc bullies this 15-year-old girl even in her death. Look how much sarcasm and stupidity there is in Tarc "delete" comment: "Delete - WP:ONEEVENT, and not likely to be repeated, hurr hurr. But seriously, this is a sort-of variation of missing white woman syndrome, the media's endless fascination with pretty white girls that have Bad Things(tm) happen to them, whether it is being spanked by a father, gone missing in Aruba, or off themselves with a bleach. Tarc (talk) 13:37, 16 October 2012 (UTC)" The Arbitration Committee is well aware that Tarc is a bully. You, Jimbo, are well aware that Tarc is a bully, and yet nobody does a thing to kick this bully off from the community. Jimbo, if nothing is done about bullying on Misplaced Pages,sooner or later somebody will commit suicide as Camelbinky predicted here.108.60.151.5 (talk) 15:16, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- I've asked Tarc to edit his comment. I don't think your hyperbole is helpful here though. Also, do you have a history of conflict with Tarc that you'd like to mention? Mark Arsten (talk) 16:06, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- Marc, I have never been bullied by user Tarc. 108.60.151.5 (talk) 00:38, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- I responded to his arguments here. Yeah, the "hurr hurr" about a girl who committed suicide from cyberbullying was ... extraordinarily bad PR. But - trolling has its redeeming qualities. Ultimately, if our society's response is solely for people to run around decrying the injustice and asking for the photo creep to be caught and the cyber bullies punished, however emotionally appealing that response might be, the outcome is that we send kids the message that suicide "will make them all pay", and that could kill more people. People should have the right to the whole gamut of emotions here, both nice and nasty; but our editorial decisions should be based on correct interpretation of policy rather than sentiment. Wnt (talk) 16:26, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- Tarc always takes a jaded view towards things, and that isn't necessarily bad. Often I agree with him, and while I don't in this specific case, his crudely worded objection has some merit. Not enough to overcome the landslide of opinion in that AfD, but just enough not to dismiss out of hand. The big difference in this case, crystal balling as it may be, is that the national scope of this within Canada is likely to produce lasting change to the legal system. It has led to debates within Commons, while at least one province is already tabling improved laws. However, it is not unfair for one to wonder if there would have been so much interest had it not been a pretty white girl who was the victim of this torment? Resolute 16:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well first off, Camelbinky didn't predict suicide, he hoped that someone would would commit suicide in order to effect the change that he feels the Misplaced Pages needs to adopt, and he was soundly rebuked in that thread for expressing such a thing. Second, the "bully" rhetoric is something from the Mbz1 and Daniel Brandt school of harassment. They are charter members of the Tarc Fan Club, though this could always be pot-stirring from some of the junior members...A Nobody, Joehazelton, etc... Who knows. Third, I struck part of the original comment as requested, but the sentiment remains; people kill themselves all the time for a variety of reasons. Our society focuses on the young, the pretty, the supposedly innocent. Why doesn't Steven Good get an article? Why not Ashlynn Conner ? "Reporting what reliable sources say" shouldn't mean just being a bunch of lemmings every time they go into a feeding frenzy about a particular one. Tarc (talk) 18:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- Tarc, if you suspect that so many people have a reason to call you a bully,then probably you are a bully.108.60.151.5 (talk) 00:38, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- No, Mrs. Mbz1, it does not. It just means that people like you lie and lie and lie again, hoping that repetition will equal acceptance. This is what you tried, and failed, do do regarding Gwen Gale a few months back, but no one bought into it. This is why you were banned from meta.wikipedia, remember? Tarc (talk) 12:32, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Are you talking about that Gwen Gale who no longer feels ok to use her tools "other than dealing with straightforward stuff like 3rr and vandalism", and who has not blocked a single user for the last 5 months or so? If you are talking about that Gwen Gale, it looks to me that Mrs. Mbz1 has succeed in her quest for fairness in regards to Gwen Gale's administrative actions. 31.193.133.159 (talk) 17:01, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- No, Mrs. Mbz1, it does not. It just means that people like you lie and lie and lie again, hoping that repetition will equal acceptance. This is what you tried, and failed, do do regarding Gwen Gale a few months back, but no one bought into it. This is why you were banned from meta.wikipedia, remember? Tarc (talk) 12:32, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS may be a bad reason to keep something, but WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESN'TEXIST is definitely a worse rationale for deletion. You're mentioning recent suicides and asking why we don't have an article. Maybe it's because nobody started one yet! Google gives just one result for "Steven L. Good" (a different one than yours) - if it were up to me I'd put an article up now based on the two sources, but I know too well that without a few extra news sources I'm likely to have a jackal pack after me on AfD in no time. It's something I ought to do but just can't be bothered. Maybe someone else will. Wnt (talk) 20:13, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- Looks like this was a good time to update the peace dove.--Amadscientist (talk) 22:41, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
Well, what Misplaced Pages seems to exist for seems at least to some at times (me, now) is as a venue for bullying, of the worst, nasty, horrible, suicide-inducing sort. From out-of-control longterm Misplaced Pages editors, many certified as Misplaced Pages administrators. I have recently reached the 100,000 edit mark reached by less than 200 wikipedia editors. The overwhelming issue, as I see it, for wikipedia, is how will wikipedia deal with long-term, harassing, nasty, evil wikipedia editors in its inner core of wp:ANI frequentors. I have personally been subject to long-term bullying (wp:harassment) while i have worked on pretty non-controversial topics of well-documented historic sites, and am at no risk personally of committing literal suicide and am not wishing to commit Misplaced Pages-suicide, but I have become attuned to motivations for suicide and have become attuned to theories about bullying, simply as a result of trying to understand the nasty, long-running, bullying-type attacks against me. I am about ready to write some "DO NOT EVER THINK ABOUT CONTRIBUTING TO WIKIPEDIA" type article aimed at academics, for publication outside of Misplaced Pages. It is a horrible environment, almost any professional would be crazy to get involved here, because there are no effective mechanisms to stop nasty, horribly, hate-filled long-run programs of attack, which eventually become (in my opinion) conflicts of interest: a long-run bullying attacker within wikipedia has to prove herself or himself correct in attacking a given target, so continues on any excuse whatsoever. That's my main experience with wikipedia. I have enjoyed contributing on non-controversial historic sites topics, but my main learning is about the difficulty of dealing with long-term committed sadistic bullies. --doncram 22:59, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- Bullying occurs in all walks of life, but in cyberspace it's so much easier. I suspect the biggest bullies are those who would be too afraid to say boo to a goose in "real life". If Misplaced Pages is is also prone to bullying (and why wouldn't it be) I could suggest setting up some type of specific page for the bullied to take their grievances. The problem being, if, as you are saying, admins are also prone to bullying, who is to man this page and arbitrate on the complaints. Who monitors those who run the place? Jonty Monty (talk) 23:24, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
Bullying happens a lot in Misplaced Pages. And it is mostly NOT by /via people violating the letter of policies; they quickly get whacked. It IS by people who know how to mis-use policies and guidelines and know how to work the wiki-system to conduct bullying. Some tweaks in the policies and guidelines would go a long way towards helping this. North8000 (talk) 23:30, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
@Doncram: That is a very interesting (and unfortunate) statement. Given your area of historical sites, it seems surprising. That article you mention could be eye-opening. Sorry, that's happened to you. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:22, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you, everybody, for standing up against the bully, for not being afraid to confront the barking pitbull and for forcing him to remove at least some port of a very offensive comment. Also thank you for providing your input on bullying that is taking place on Misplaced Pages.198.105.223.149 (talk) 15:18, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Sexist comments made against male Wikipedians in a national publication (WSJ)
Per User:Tvoz's comment: "this discussion ought to be happening all over the project".
Look at this recent front-page WSJ article which says " disputes have become more frequent over the years. blames 'an overabundance of testosterone running around the pages.'"
For the discussion at Tvoz's talk page see here. Any thoughts? ~ GabeMc 00:02, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2012-10-15/In the media has a link to the same article.
- —Wavelength (talk) 00:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Are you kidding me GabeMC? Are your seriously kidding me? Drop the bloody stick, back away from the horse, and move on with your life. You're badgering Tvoz for making comments that are nearly identical to those made be several Wikimedia staffers. Furthermore, the comments are completely, 100% accurate. And whether they are or not, are you seriously trying to criticize a Misplaced Pages editor for the personal opinions they expressed to a news media? Are you implying that we can't make comments to the media just because you happen to disagree with them? Or even that the community as a whole disagrees with them? Just because you don't think the sexist culture at Misplaced Pages is a problem doesn't mean you need to drag this around Misplaced Pages trying to generate some sort of animosity towards Tvoz for publicly expressing his opinion? The very fact that you're trying to make a big deal out of this, in an antagonistic fashion, laying blame and "winning", is itself a masculinist attitude rooted in patriarchal ways of conversing. Could you please get back to actually improving the encyclopedia? Qwyrxian (talk) 00:27, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- 1) No, I'm not kidding, if someone said "Misplaced Pages has too many disputes because woman don't compromise", I would have gotten equally disturbed. 2) I think it's ironic that you defend her "right" to make sexist remarks while actively trying to squash my "right" to complain about them. 3) Its not a job Qwyrxian, I am an unpaid volunteer! Admins shouldn't treat editors as their employees. 4) I took a 10,000 word article (Pink Floyd) through FAC during the Beatles mediation, so don't preach to me about improving the encyclopedia. 5) "laying blame ... a masculinist attitude rooted in patriarchal ways of conversing", well, if you knew the history of this dispute a little better, you would know that Tvoz has done exactly that when it comes to me and my brief involvement in the Beatles dispute. She has repeatedly claimed that I have been "driving this for years", when in fact she is well aware that my involvement began around 18 months ago, while hers began more than 5 years ago! 6) Your claim that an increase in Misplaced Pages disputes correlates directly with an increase in male editors is a logical fallacy with no direct scientific support. Take a look at this article that purports that testosterone increases honesty! Therefore, female editors are less honest and more manipulative right? Do you see the folly in your overgeneralization? ~ GabeMc 00:40, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Are you kidding me GabeMC? Are your seriously kidding me? Drop the bloody stick, back away from the horse, and move on with your life. You're badgering Tvoz for making comments that are nearly identical to those made be several Wikimedia staffers. Furthermore, the comments are completely, 100% accurate. And whether they are or not, are you seriously trying to criticize a Misplaced Pages editor for the personal opinions they expressed to a news media? Are you implying that we can't make comments to the media just because you happen to disagree with them? Or even that the community as a whole disagrees with them? Just because you don't think the sexist culture at Misplaced Pages is a problem doesn't mean you need to drag this around Misplaced Pages trying to generate some sort of animosity towards Tvoz for publicly expressing his opinion? The very fact that you're trying to make a big deal out of this, in an antagonistic fashion, laying blame and "winning", is itself a masculinist attitude rooted in patriarchal ways of conversing. Could you please get back to actually improving the encyclopedia? Qwyrxian (talk) 00:27, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- From Misplaced Pages:Discrimination: "In discrimination notion is included any discrimination on base of: gender" And: "Banned activities: 4.Using offensive and discriminative language and attitude: words, phrases, etc. meaning to harm, offend, belittle editor's contribution."
E.g. "typical of adolescent boys, or super-annuated ones", "It's adolescent behavior I am talking about", "people in the minority ... are in the better position to recognize and identify it than those in the majority", "testosterone-driven" adolescent behavior", "That's one-upmanship, bullying, and it just isn't particularly a trait of women in arguments that I have observed", "I didn't make it up - we are not all the same", "I'm glad the reporter chose that quote, because it encapsulates my sense of what happens here", "when I talk about adolescent behavior, bullying, one-upmanship, territorialism", "The need to win - the status-seeking - territory marking - is what I've been talking about, and like it or not, it is widely associated with adolescent male behavior, hence, in a word, testosterone", "I'm not going to get into a diatribe about the patriarchy here, but you can guess what my conclusions are", "I of course said a lot more to the reporter than just that quote ... which I totally stand behind", etcetera.
What Tvoz is espousing is a clear-cut case of gender bias and discrimination. ~ GabeMc 01:04, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Your attitude makes me so angry I could scream. I'm furious. You're comments here and on Tvoz's talk page are the perfect example of twisting the word "discrimination" into the exact opposite of what it means. It's like people who say that using gender-neutral language is discrimination (i.e., allegations of political correctness). It's like people who say that laws that attempt to equalize the number of women and men in business, politics, or other fields are "discrimination". Take your "oh, poor, me, I'm a man, I'm being discriminated against by those narrow-minded feminists" attitude to some men's rights group and get out of our faces here. Misplaced Pages is set up, by its disputative nature with a quasi-legal system of regulations and ad-hoc juries to benefit those with a masculinist bent. This tends to be (biological) men, since society tends to give men masculinist skills. Through a vicious feedback cycle, this process both empowers masculinists, and ensures that any serious disagreements on Misplaced Pages because "disputes" rather than "consensus forming discussions". Do we do better than some places? Yes. Are we a victim of our overwhelmingly male population? Absolutely. Do Tvoz's comments make it better, and yours make it worse? Undeniably. Feminism has taught me to look to my own body. And right now my fingers are pounding on the keyboard four times harder than they should be. My stomach is tight and my jaw is clenched. I'm angry. And this is a conversation that needs anger. It needs people of all biological and sociological genders to angrily say, "Don't you (GabeMC) dare call Tvoz's statements discrimination or sexism. Misplaced Pages's greatest problems come from the masculinist drive to win, and, if possible, to crush one's enemies at the same time." And let me admit: I'm a part of this problem, too. I know exactly how to use the system to "win", and do it when I consider it necessary. I try, but I fail, to leave behind my own masculinist tendencies to promote a better Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages needs more female editors, and it really needs more feminist writers. Working against that is preserving the status quo, reinventing real, actual discrimination on the internet. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:24, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages doesn't need more female editors. (but female editors are clearly fine, and I'm not suggesting male editors are better.)..or more feminist writers. Editors with an agenda are not what we need more of.
- Your attitude makes me so angry I could scream. I'm furious. You're comments here and on Tvoz's talk page are the perfect example of twisting the word "discrimination" into the exact opposite of what it means. It's like people who say that using gender-neutral language is discrimination (i.e., allegations of political correctness). It's like people who say that laws that attempt to equalize the number of women and men in business, politics, or other fields are "discrimination". Take your "oh, poor, me, I'm a man, I'm being discriminated against by those narrow-minded feminists" attitude to some men's rights group and get out of our faces here. Misplaced Pages is set up, by its disputative nature with a quasi-legal system of regulations and ad-hoc juries to benefit those with a masculinist bent. This tends to be (biological) men, since society tends to give men masculinist skills. Through a vicious feedback cycle, this process both empowers masculinists, and ensures that any serious disagreements on Misplaced Pages because "disputes" rather than "consensus forming discussions". Do we do better than some places? Yes. Are we a victim of our overwhelmingly male population? Absolutely. Do Tvoz's comments make it better, and yours make it worse? Undeniably. Feminism has taught me to look to my own body. And right now my fingers are pounding on the keyboard four times harder than they should be. My stomach is tight and my jaw is clenched. I'm angry. And this is a conversation that needs anger. It needs people of all biological and sociological genders to angrily say, "Don't you (GabeMC) dare call Tvoz's statements discrimination or sexism. Misplaced Pages's greatest problems come from the masculinist drive to win, and, if possible, to crush one's enemies at the same time." And let me admit: I'm a part of this problem, too. I know exactly how to use the system to "win", and do it when I consider it necessary. I try, but I fail, to leave behind my own masculinist tendencies to promote a better Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages needs more female editors, and it really needs more feminist writers. Working against that is preserving the status quo, reinventing real, actual discrimination on the internet. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:24, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- (ec/@Gabe) And how exactly are you contributing to the discussion at hand? S'pose Tvoz was right — what are you gonna do about it? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 01:25, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- And by the way... I just read the article in WSJ... not once does Tvoz mention "men" or "male". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 01:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Testosterone can't be the cause, because Misplaced Pages has always had a larger number of male editors. Though half the editors don't self-identify sex, and I suspect more of those are women than those who do self-label. The real cause is that a lot of people have put a lot of effort into making articles, and now whoever wins the wars gets to control those accumulated resources and the long shadow they cast from Google. Those who want to simply contribute content keep getting turned off and driven out - there's nobody left who doesn't have some taste for battle by this point. I stick to my position (Fae...) that ethnic/sexual/etc. bias is not uncommon, not an extraordinary accusation, but something we should discuss within the normal range of all the other biases that affect us. Wnt (talk) 04:08, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- All of this is way out into an ontological nightmare land which we aren't going to resolve on Misplaced Pages, so everyone here who seriously feels concerned about gender discrimination would be well advised to turn their attention to what's going on in places like the Democratic Republic of the Congo or Saudi Arabia. There are bigger issues than the histrionics of one website at play here, and we're never going to resolve this until many much larger, external, problems are dealt with. But I suspect this won't be the end of this thread, so carry on... Hall of Jade (お話しになります) 04:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Introducing this topic on this page is a surreal illustration of the very problem that Tvoz was addressing in the article. The infamous, years-long dispute about whether or not to capitalize the first "t" in "The Beatles" has already been the occasion for a bizarre display of aggression and acrimony that has overflown the confines of numerous polls, mediations and RfCs. It's now spilled over into various other talk pages and now this -- not to mention the national media. It's like the climax of Blazing Saddles, where the barroom brawl spreads from one sound stage to another, then out into the theater and finally out into the street. Talk about testosterone! Jburlinson (talk) 05:52, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- (RIP Mongo)
- Introducing this topic on this page is a surreal illustration of the very problem that Tvoz was addressing in the article. The infamous, years-long dispute about whether or not to capitalize the first "t" in "The Beatles" has already been the occasion for a bizarre display of aggression and acrimony that has overflown the confines of numerous polls, mediations and RfCs. It's now spilled over into various other talk pages and now this -- not to mention the national media. It's like the climax of Blazing Saddles, where the barroom brawl spreads from one sound stage to another, then out into the theater and finally out into the street. Talk about testosterone! Jburlinson (talk) 05:52, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- All of this is way out into an ontological nightmare land which we aren't going to resolve on Misplaced Pages, so everyone here who seriously feels concerned about gender discrimination would be well advised to turn their attention to what's going on in places like the Democratic Republic of the Congo or Saudi Arabia. There are bigger issues than the histrionics of one website at play here, and we're never going to resolve this until many much larger, external, problems are dealt with. But I suspect this won't be the end of this thread, so carry on... Hall of Jade (お話しになります) 04:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Testosterone can't be the cause, because Misplaced Pages has always had a larger number of male editors. Though half the editors don't self-identify sex, and I suspect more of those are women than those who do self-label. The real cause is that a lot of people have put a lot of effort into making articles, and now whoever wins the wars gets to control those accumulated resources and the long shadow they cast from Google. Those who want to simply contribute content keep getting turned off and driven out - there's nobody left who doesn't have some taste for battle by this point. I stick to my position (Fae...) that ethnic/sexual/etc. bias is not uncommon, not an extraordinary accusation, but something we should discuss within the normal range of all the other biases that affect us. Wnt (talk) 04:08, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- And by the way... I just read the article in WSJ... not once does Tvoz mention "men" or "male". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 01:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- However, let's not forget that some editors are hyper-sensitive in areas such as this. When you have an editor who is willing to be extremely combative over things like a "t"; someone's personal opinion about the cause of battles; or indeed if gets angry if someone says "fuck" every now and then, then the editor clearly needs to be approached differently than most. Indeed, those might be signs that community-based projects are not their forte, but I'm a journalist and not a psychologist. dangerouspanda 09:58, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Bwilkins (GP, ESSL), when are you going to let it go? Our little conflict (which lasted less than three days) was over more than three months ago! Yet every single chance you get you remind people and attempt to antagonize me. I don't care if you enjoy calling people retarded, or using the f-word excessively, or you call people "wussies", or that you antagonise an editor you viewed as racist using offensive racist language, or even that you bragged on Misplaced Pages about how sexually attracted you are to teenagers, and here. I've long since let it go, and perhaps now is a good time for you to as well, before the WSJ does a front-page piece on abusive and potentially sexually inappropriate Misplaced Pages admins. ~ GabeMc 21:17, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- However, let's not forget that some editors are hyper-sensitive in areas such as this. When you have an editor who is willing to be extremely combative over things like a "t"; someone's personal opinion about the cause of battles; or indeed if gets angry if someone says "fuck" every now and then, then the editor clearly needs to be approached differently than most. Indeed, those might be signs that community-based projects are not their forte, but I'm a journalist and not a psychologist. dangerouspanda 09:58, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
I wouldn't call what Tvoz initially said was sexist; but her subsequent comments do tend to suggest some sexist thinking (of the most on-up-man-ship editors I have come across on Misplaced Pages a good number of them are female, and most are older individuals). But I also think GabeMC is doing his best to portray Tvoz's stereotype in what looks a lot like a temper tantrum :S Wikipedias social problems are not specifically driven by testosterone or gender, and I suggest Tvoz needs to get beyond those stereotypes to help emphasise her point (if for nothing else to avoid this sort of bickering). The problems are driven by our social structure, the minimal punishment of bad behaviour and anonymity. --Errant 10:44, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
As our article states, women have testosterone, too. And an excess of it in women leads to... "increased aggression". Can we stop being silly now and get back to writing an encyclopedia? --Dweller (talk) 12:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed. This is all childish and ridiculous. I'd be tempted to tell all the participants in this farce to grow a pair, but I shall just make a meta-joke about doing so instead. —Tom Morris (talk) 12:54, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm glad you didn't make that joke--as a man, I'm tired of being a persecuted minority on the internet. Mark Arsten (talk) 14:38, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- The solution is easy, call the band "Beatles", and watch everyone twitch :D , IRWolfie- (talk) 17:48, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Speaking as a male prone to argument and all-around d-baggery
once in awhilealot of the time, I see nothing in Tvoz's comments that are actually incorrect. If there's butthurt to be had over this, it is over the exposure of an unfortunate truth. Tarc (talk) 15:16, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Echoing the above: "it's only the truth that hurts," as the saying goes. GabeMc, either she is right or the statement is wack and shouldn't matter — plus you're assuming the accuracy and good will of a Rupert Murdoch publication on top of that. Much ado about nothing, move along. Carrite (talk) 18:02, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - Supporting feminism does not mean spreading idiotic stereotypes about males. "An overabundance of testosterone" could be translated into "there are too many men on Misplaced Pages", which either means 1) We should recruit more women or 2) We should reduce the amount of men. Either way, claiming that Misplaced Pages is not a friendly environment for woman in the most circulated newspaper in the US does not accomplish #1 and I can only assume #2 is not a realistic or appealing option.
As for how would I handle the issue? I think the conversation should move away from individual users and specific genders and into the realm of: "Can Misplaced Pages be at times be an abusive and unfriendly environment?" If Tvoz had said that Misplaced Pages should be more encouraging and nurturing, and less hostile and abusive, I would have completely agreed. By tieing the negative traits associated with Misplaced Pages disputes to testosterone (maleness) is to take a low-blow against men, a cheap-shot that does not help the project in anyway that I can see. FTR, I would have never guessed Tvoz was female until she made sure I knew (in a hostile and aggresive way). I don't go around thinking, "I wonder if that editor is female, or gay, or black, or Jewish", I don't attempt to judge them based on anything except their words and actions. If anyone thinks that supporting feminism means insulting men, then they have missed the point entirely. If I was a female, and I was considering joining Misplaced Pages, I would think twice after reading Tvoz's comments, that's my main concern. I think it is a valuable discussion that should have been had internally, not externally for all the world to see, which could in fact be damaging to the project ~ GabeMc 20:55, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Shameless advertising
Hi Jimbo -- in case you aren't a regular reader of the Signpost, let me give a pointer to Misplaced Pages talk:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2012-10-15/Op-ed, which might interest you (or maybe not). Regards, Looie496 (talk) 00:21, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- And there I thought you were referring to the fact that we have just had yet another Gibraltar DYK on the main page. (Did you know that the historic Rosia Water Tanks, which provided water for Vice Admiral Horatio Nelson's fleet in Gibraltar, were demolished in 2006?) AndreasKolbe JN466 01:17, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- What is it going to take to shut off the Gibraltar spam? Completely ridiculous. Carrite (talk) 18:08, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Developer resources for pending changes
Is it really the case that there are no developer resources available to fix bugs in pending changes? It's recently come to light that PC returns the latest (unapproved) version to the GoogleBot because Google uses the API call to get the latest version of a page. That seriously reduces the usefulness of pending changes if the unapproved versions are still going into Google and other search engines. Gigs (talk) 00:37, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- I've never understood why we don't simply use flagged revisions as implemented for years in the German and other Wikipedias, at least on biographies. All the various false death reports, and the malicious nonsense with Gideon Levy and Anita Sarkeesian, would never have been seen by the public, and would never have hit the press. AndreasKolbe JN466 01:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Based on my experience over the past 9-10 months, I'd say it's the unbelievable torrent of verbiage unleashed by all sides on the topic; I'll feel lucky to come out of closing these discussions alive. When so many people feel the need to expound in more detail than would be required to bore a judge all at once, it has two paradoxical effects; 1. the last people tend to be the ones with the most extreme viewpoints and 2. it prevents anything but the most moderate changes to the status quo, for better or worse. Why do you think other areas run into the same problems? Hall of Jade (お話しになります) 04:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Stalemates and interminable waffle are a problem inherent in the Misplaced Pages system. It affects pretty much every issue where there is a difference in opinion. Coming back to the original topic, I've just written a blog post on Flagged Revisions. If the pending changes version that is supposed to be used here in the English Misplaced Pages – to whatever degree pending changes may come to be used in the future – is buggy, then resources should be made available to fix the bugs. WMF revenue has risen more than 12-fold over the past five years; it is hard to understand why, with so much funding available, programming projects suffer delays such as the one that, according to the OP, afflicts the en:WP version of pending changes. AndreasKolbe JN466 15:12, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Here is the diff where Jdforrester claims there's no development resources for PC . Gigs (talk) 19:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. If the RfC shows consensus for any use of PC, under whichever circumstances, then I would suggest we use flagged revisions, as that seems to be the only version that actually does the advertised job of keeping unapproved changes and defamation out of Google. AndreasKolbe JN466 19:58, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Here is the diff where Jdforrester claims there's no development resources for PC . Gigs (talk) 19:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Stalemates and interminable waffle are a problem inherent in the Misplaced Pages system. It affects pretty much every issue where there is a difference in opinion. Coming back to the original topic, I've just written a blog post on Flagged Revisions. If the pending changes version that is supposed to be used here in the English Misplaced Pages – to whatever degree pending changes may come to be used in the future – is buggy, then resources should be made available to fix the bugs. WMF revenue has risen more than 12-fold over the past five years; it is hard to understand why, with so much funding available, programming projects suffer delays such as the one that, according to the OP, afflicts the en:WP version of pending changes. AndreasKolbe JN466 15:12, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Based on my experience over the past 9-10 months, I'd say it's the unbelievable torrent of verbiage unleashed by all sides on the topic; I'll feel lucky to come out of closing these discussions alive. When so many people feel the need to expound in more detail than would be required to bore a judge all at once, it has two paradoxical effects; 1. the last people tend to be the ones with the most extreme viewpoints and 2. it prevents anything but the most moderate changes to the status quo, for better or worse. Why do you think other areas run into the same problems? Hall of Jade (お話しになります) 04:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
RfB?
I have noticed here that you are not a crat. Given all the RfA related controversy and discussion, I'd be interested to see you go through the experience so that you can comment on it yourself with a more thorough knowledge of what the process is like. Granted, the discussion has not really been about RfB's, but the process is similar to that of the RfA and you are already an admin. Also, if you were throw your hat in the ring for cratship, it might increase participation in both RfA and RfB. AutomaticStrikeout 20:18, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- I set this challenge for myself: by the end of the day, try to think of something more pointless, drama-creating, and time-wasting than Jimbo running for 'crat. I have a feeling I'm going to fail. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- It would rejuvenate user involvement at both RfA and RfB. The conversation surrounding Jimbo's RfB would lead to other users deciding to give it a go. AutomaticStrikeout 20:26, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Very few people have spent longer contemplating this issue than I have and I can assure you that it would neither rejuvenate user involvement nor encourage others to give it a go. There just isn't a strong causal connection between Jimbo doing something and people wanting to do the same thing. MBisanz 20:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- That is not quite what I had in mind. I was thinking more that the amount of attention drawn to the RfB would lead to other editors deciding to give it a try. AutomaticStrikeout 20:35, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Very few people have spent longer contemplating this issue than I have and I can assure you that it would neither rejuvenate user involvement nor encourage others to give it a go. There just isn't a strong causal connection between Jimbo doing something and people wanting to do the same thing. MBisanz 20:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- It would rejuvenate user involvement at both RfA and RfB. The conversation surrounding Jimbo's RfB would lead to other users deciding to give it a go. AutomaticStrikeout 20:26, 17 October 2012 (UTC)