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Ma'an news - RSN

You might be interested in this discussion - http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Ma.27an_News Ankh.Morpork 17:16, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Can I ask you a question

Bear in mind. I am Irish, I have no dog in the PI crap at all. I like actual historical facts, which is on wiki I tend to deal with that kinda shite. But I have to ask you, do you really thing a newswire such as Maan is suitable for the articles you want to use it on? And before you ask, no the JP should not be used on that article either. Do you not think using western sources only would prove beneficial? Your choice Nab. I ask you to work on this and look for neutral sources, what say you? Darkness Shines (talk) 18:21, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Do you see what it is being used for? To answer your question, I dont think any newspapers should be used, and the idea that it should only be Western newspapers is even worse than allowing all of them. But in my ideal world, only books published by top quality academic presses and peer-reviewed journals would be used, so no articles on anything that happened in say the last year, including that one. But that isnt the world I live in, the one I live in has people trying to use Israeli sources and remove Palestinian sources. You think thats right? nableezy - 18:53, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Nab, it just happened, we will not be writing about in either books or journals for a year at least. But I know what you are saying, and I do feel for you and your people, mine went through much the same after all. Look, I respect you in how you feel, I felt the same 30 years ago. But to try and lower the conflict here on Wiki, what would you think is the best way forward? Darkness Shines (talk) 18:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

If you think I dont know the consequences of restricting the sources, I do. No more articles about what just happened. nableezy - 19:01, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

And do you think its a bad thing?--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 19:12, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

If I did would I support it? nableezy - 19:12, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

How no? All newspapers carry the same stories after all. Chirst the Guardian carrys such stories all the time. Do you not look at western press at all? Google the guy who got killed, the mentally unstable one a few weeks ago, all the press carried it. You do not trust the west, and I do not blame you, but the press is free and will print what the hell they want, you must know this. Look, I am off out as it is new years eve and have a date Have a good one yourself, and please bear in mind, I am neutral in all of this, should you have issues with an edit let me know and I will happily look it over. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:13, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but youre not "neutral" in this. And I didnt say I dont "trust" the West. nableezy - 19:22, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

'the press is free and will print what the hell they want.' The first proposition is dubious. What presses 'set fit to print' is often a calculated judgement on and compromise over,(a) what the owners prefer, (b) what advertisers on them won't object to, and (c) what the readership that buys the paper would prefer to read. As one sees at critical moments, in The Times of London, or The New York Times, reportage can be devastatingly skewed (Iraq War 2003). This goes for the mainstream press. The second proposition has nothing to do with either comprehensiveness or accuracy of reportage, but rather 'who cares. I like it, I want the readership to think this way'. The Murdoch press is a prime, and notorious example. It's an old book, but one I commend for New Year reading, one written by Walter Lippmann, i.e. hisPublic Opinion 1921 (freely downloadable), a trenchantly eloquent treatise on ther 'pseudo-environment' in which we are constrained to live by exposure to mass media.

'analysis of the nature of news and of the economic basis of journalism seems to show that the newspapers necessarily and inevitably reflect, and therefore, in greater or lesser measure, intensify, the defective organization of public opinion.'

This is what a great humane, liberal newspaperman could write about what really occurs in the mass media. At the time, that was a centrist admission of how much bullshit is flogged to a gullible public to 'manufacture consent' at whatever price to the facts. His position is held today by Noam Chomsky, whom Lippmann's moderate, liberal, bien-pensant heirs regard as a dangerous man. In short, the classical moderate realist view of how information is cut and tailored to produce a social mindset is now only retained by those whom modern day centrists call extremists. End of New Year Lecture, except for noting that 'Darkness Shines' is an allusion to the mystical treatise of Dionysus the Areopagite. Nishidani (talk) 21:40, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

ARBPIA / Discretionary Sanctions warning

(this is being made equally to Nableezy, Baseball Bugs, and Tkuvho)

Recent comments on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, which you participated in, degenerated into mutually combative personal attacks among at least the three of you. Several way nastyness over several days, including noticeboard (ANI, etc) arguments has enused.

This is not acceptable behavior. All of you are editors with long experiences here and in good standing; usually you behave much better.

This message is a formal warning that the Discrectionary Sanctions (formerly ARBPIA sanctions) are in force for this topic area and if the disruption continues, further sanctions, including temporary topic or article bans or blocks per policy may be used to separate the combatants.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:15, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Could you explain what the basis is for saying that my comments have been anywhere near remotely as bad as Baseball Bugs? I'm called a racist and I am warned? For what? And Baseball Bugs still has not redacted his vile accusation. In fact he has doubled down on it at ANI. nableezy - 23:21, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Your comments are not as bad as his; you and Kyuvho were both about one step short of actually problematic attacks, though Bugs was right about on the line or slightly over it. All in my opinion.

The combination of all three of your behaviors, which was going in both directions, was a policy problem and disruptive.

I hope you can appreciate the difference between "you are being confrontational in a disruptive conversation" and "you made personal attacks in a disruptive conversation". I am not accusing you of the latter, but believe you did the former. The conversation, the way it's gone, needs to stop for a bit.

Regarding you being called a Racist - and Bugs' ongoing behavior - I am not going to apply sanctions for the prior pre-warning activities (the discretionary sanctions wouldn't let me) but am re-re-reviewing the racist claim and I understand why you're not happy with it. I will ask Bugs to strike or remove it, at least, and if he does not will hat it. Please give me some time to have that discussion with him.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:37, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

George, you have to understand that in this topic area those accusations are poison. They are made with the specific aim to silence other editors. I am on-record as saying any editor engaging in antisemitic conduct in the topic area should be banned. I have also said that any user who makes that accusation without evidence, much less actual justification, should be banned. Baseball Bugs went further in the ANI thread then he did at RS/N, saying that he thinks the same of every editor who calls the news wire "reliable". There are a number of users that are implicitly branded as antisemites by that comment. It was outrageous when he wrote it the first time, and every time he has refused to redact has caused further outage. If he refuses to redact it he should be blocked, full stop. He needs to get through his head that he cant call others racists to shut them up when he is incapable of responding to their arguments. If it takes a block for him to understand that, or at least to understand that if he does so again he'll be blocked again, then thats what it takes. nableezy - 23:42, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Greetings Nableezy, Part of the problem here is that you are determined that the answer is black and BB will not accept anything but white. The truth lies in shades of grey. You have allowed the ad hominem ploy to be effective because you are no longer arguing whether or not the source is reliable, but instead whether or not BB has attacked you; how aggrieving the attack felt, and what you believe is necessary to restore the status quo. Ironically, this entirely different debate is also neither black nor white. You established a valid point long ago, you are now diminishing your credibility, walking the present course; and you were suckered in to walking it. Such is life however. Happy new year. BTW I seem to have lost a minnow on the way here. I hope it never turns up; needed. --My76Strat (talk) 23:49, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

If it diminishes my credibility fine. Id be cool with GWH letting me tell BB what I think of him and calling it a day. But where it matters, RS/N, I only said it was reported to ANI and went back to the issue of reliability. But happy New Year's to you as well. nableezy - 23:54, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Replying to Nableezy's last:

I don't know how far I'm going to go on supporting that, but I do agree he outright called you antisemitic, and at the very least that's not OK, and as I said, give me a little time to deal with it.

The Discretionary Sanctions policy doesn't let me use DS against conduct before the warning. Other policy might but the total damage done by this will be magnified by the size of the hammer needed to stop it, so I am going to work my way up rather than start with overkill. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:51, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Whatever, fine, but Id still like the opportunity to let BB know what I think of him. nableezy - 23:55, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I think he knows what you think. I am more likely to get through to him on it at the moment. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:00, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I dont. I think he might have an idea, but I would relish the opportunity to make sure, but Id try not to be too explicit. nableezy - 00:02, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Write an essay. Make the stone a stepping stone opposed to the stumbling stone it was meant to be. --My76Strat (talk) 00:11, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

An essay on what I think about "Baseball Bugs" and his intellectual capacity? I was thinking more along the lines of two or three sentences. nableezy - 00:16, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Knock it off. Prodego 00:41, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I see you havent done anything about the slur that still stands on RS/N. But Ill knock it off, sure thing. Because thats obviously much more important. nableezy - 00:46, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Request for mediation rejected

The request for formal mediation concerning Jerusalem 2, to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. To read an explanation by the Mediation Committee for the rejection of this request, see the mediation request page, which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time. Please direct questions relating to this request to the Chairman of the Committee, or to the mailing list. For more information on forms of dispute resolution, other than formal mediation, that are available, see Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution.

For the Mediation Committee, --WGFinley (talk) 18:48, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
(Delivered by MediationBot, on behalf of the Mediation Committee.)

New section

See this...http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Colonialism#The_whole_section_needs_bulldozing

We're discussing the possibility of creating a new section altogether for the purpose of addressing the dispute surrounding Israel. At the moment, too many people disagree that it belongs under colonial migrations, even with the sources you provided. Let us know what you think.Evildoer187 (talk) 19:06, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Im sorry, but you yourself are not too many people. nableezy - 19:40, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Colonialism

What is it that you've accused me of doing on the Colonialism article? Your post to the ANI page was somewhat unclear, and your accusing me of "noise" and not being able to "edit constructively by adhering to our content policies" makes no sense,. Good luck with editing the I/P articles, you'll need it.Ubikwit (talk) 04:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I think manus would have been much better off on the indigenous page without either of you. At the colonialism article you mixed garbage sources with excellent ones. When you do that it makes it easy for people to dismiss your entire argument. You seem to be trying to argue at the same level as a certain interlocutor, that doesnt help actually get anything done. Im not trying to discourage you, but I think you could use some time editing in other areas. nableezy - 04:33, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

What garbage sources?--Ubikwit (talk) 05:43, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

This one in particular, this is a transcript from a hearing in the US Senate (available here) which isnt garbage but shouldnt be used as anything more than it is, this is actually that same Senate hearing, and this is a self-published book. nableezy - 06:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Im sorry, I misread who brought those links. That was mostly what I was basing my impression off of, and Im sorry that I thought that you were the one to post those. Got thrown off by the red-linked name at the beginning of the post with the links. I take back what I said, here and ANI if I could. nableezy - 06:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for checking that and admitting the mistake. The only source I newly introduced into that discussion was the FMEP statistical data that you commented on the related RSN posting.

I don't now if it will do any good, but maybe you could mention that to deskana. He had issued a warning here that the next person to revert that page would be blocked, so there is a possibility that his closing of the case was made on the basis of his checking the Colonialism article after reading your comment at AN/I. I've put in quite a bit of effort on some articles, and wouldn't want to miss the discussion in the Jerusalem RfC, in case there is anything of significance I might have to contribute.

By the way, it would have been helpful if you'd gotten involved in the discussion on the Colonialism Talk page a week or so ago.

Regarding the Indigenous peoples article, until I cued in Maunus in onto a diatribe that Crock81 had posted on EdJohnston's talk page he wasn't aware of what that guy was up to. And both I and Maunus had at first been trying to accommodate a somewhat broader definition to permit other types of research to be included on that page, but he had an agenda, and had made 33 edits in a 24 hour period, or something like that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ubikwit (talk • contribs) 06:21, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Since I don't see traces of an administrative act to have re-opened the discussion, but the "closed" template is gone, it is unclear whether that has actually been re-opened.

In any case, I'm curious as to why you haven't mentioned your above-mentioned mistake to deskana. --Ubikwit (talk) 06:51, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, wasnt on the last day or so. But looking at Deskana's talk page, it doesnt seem as though he or she is interested in talking about this. I've stricken my !vote from the archive, but there isnt much more that can be done. I really am sorry for the mistake. I think the best thing for you going forward, if you want to edit this topic, is spend a few months bringing up some articles outside of the topic to good or featured status. Then you can ask the ban be rescinded. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding. nableezy - 18:40, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Relaible source noticeboard

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did you check your mail

Sean.hoyland - talk 16:47, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks. nableezy - 16:48, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Wish that search worked with multiple users, would make this much easier. nableezy - 16:50, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Just some light reading in case you missed them

• Robert Fisk Anonymous comments, gutless trolls and why its time we all stop drinking this digital poison The Independent 10 January 2013

• Robert Fisk A word of advice about the Middle East –we’ve reached the tipping point with clichés.The Independent 24 December 2012

• Robert Fisk Does Arab progress founder on an ossified language? The Independent, 31 December 2012

• Robert Fisk Could Saudi Arabia be next? The Independent 31 December 2012

Saw those, but thanks. nableezy - 19:37, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Herut

User:Wolfgang Fontaine is obviously him... What's your mind ? Pluto2012 (talk) 18:45, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I just can't be bothered to provide the details at SPI. e.g. this edit repeats this edit by a CU blocked AndresHerutJaim sock. I think most of the edits can be tied to previous socks. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:08, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

The man has no imagination, no creep to his game. I dont get the point here, everything he does is reverted. With just a little bit of effort, like Dajudem, he could get away with it for more than an hour at a time. nableezy - 19:35, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

PERM

Hi Nableezy,

I did it here : . Is this the wrong place ? I wonder so because you didn't advise me the same place... ? Pluto2012 (talk) 20:49, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

No, you were right, thats the correct place. Ill approve anything I see until you get the permission. Take care, nableezy - 20:51, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Moderation of Jerusalem RfC

Hello. You are receiving this message because you have recently participated at Talk:Jerusalem or because you were listed at one of the two recent requests for mediation of the Jerusalem article (1, 2). The Arbitration Committee recently mandated a binding request for comments about the wording of the lead of the Jerusalem article, and this message is to let you know that there is currently a moderated discussion underway to decide how that request for comments should be structured. If you are interested in participating in the discussion, you are invited to read the thread at Talk:Jerusalem#Moderation, add yourself to the list of participants, and leave a statement. Please note that this discussion will not affect the contents of the article directly; the contents of the article will be decided in the request for comments itself, which will begin after we have finalised its structure. If you do not wish to participate in the present discussion, you may safely ignore this message; there is no need to respond. If you have any questions or comments about this, please leave them at my talk page. Best regards — Mr. Stradivarius 12:10, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Palestinian people

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Palestinian people. Discussion regarding the Historical history regarding the Palestinian people could use your contribution. Previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics) show you are well versed in expertise in the field. Lazyfoxx 07:25, 14 January 2013 (UTC)