Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:16, 25 May 2006

Changes

I removed the following because these "facts" werew unverifiable (or at least i couldn't verify them)

• However, Anaheim Hills enjoys the lowest crime rate in the city and one of the lowest in Orange County. Violent crime is virtually non-existent; however, drug problems and petty theft remain as minor issues.

• However, the local high school has decreased in prestige over the last few years mainly to drug problems and the loss of the top students to other school districts, namely Troy High School in the Fullerton Joint Unified High School District (FJUHSD). While the local elementary and middle schools are excellent, Canyon High has failed to meet the standards of a school in such an excellent community.

• Anaheim Hills has excellent places for shopping, most notably the Festival Center in east Anaheim Hills. Other places of interest include Oak Canyon Nature Center, Knowlwood (Voted the Best Hamburger restaurant in Orange County), two movie theaters, an excellent public library, and an excellent choice of foods, including Macaroni Grill, Mandarin Taste, Hibachi Steakhouse, and Wood Ranch BBQ and Grill. In 'n Out and Chipotle appear to be the current trends in fast food.

• Anaheim Hills has a reputation of being a quiet and safe, yet exciting place to live. It is an excellent place to live whether you are a teenager or senior citizen. Another plus is that the weather is generally excellent except for a few days in the summer when it can get above 100. The temperature almost never goes under freezing, and snow hasn't fallen in many decades.

I also added the references section, cited a couple of things, and added a link to a map of the area. In light of these changes, i have removed the POV tag. Not sure who originally wrote this article, but it really did read like a tourism ad.--Alex 20:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

POV!

I added POV tag, someone keeps adding blatant POV lines to the article such as "However, the local high school has decreased in prestige over the last few years mainly to drug problems and the loss of the top students to other school districts, namely Troy High School in the Fullerton Joint Unified High School District (FJUHSD). While the local elementary and middle schools are excellent, Canyon High has failed to meet the standards of a school in such an excellent community."--Alex 19:46, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

It would probably be easier to just ditch the tag and remove the contributions. If they are uncited, they don't belong in the article at all. --Hetar 08:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Ugh, this article reaks of self-promotion. Was it written by the Anaheim Hills Chamber of Commerce?

It defnitely reads that way! I've made changes in the past that just get removed the next day so i'm not really sure if there's anything i can do to improve the page, as someone seems to have an interest in making sure the page continues to read like a travel brocure. I'm somewhat new here, is there a standard way of dealing with such issues? Actually, at the very moment it looks like someone has cleaned it up...--Alex 22:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I was the one who "cleaned it up", but I did so with a very broad stroke by reverting back to the version before 71.144.105.17 (talk • contribs) and Ericsaindon2 (talk • contribs) ever touched the article (same person, I suspect). I did so after User:Will Beback pointed out the situation with this article at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Southern California. I honestly didn't see any way to separate the verifiable from the fluff without massive effort. At that point, our booster probably will have added back all the crap we remove. Someone should probably tell the user about verifiablity, sourcing, etc, but their agenda seems so obvious that I doubt they'd pay any mind. Mike Dillon 01:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Changes (May 2006)

I changed the Anaheim Hills section from the junk written by Mike Dillon. Its apparent he has never been to Anaheim Hills. And I was not the original writer when it was in a Travel Brochure state. I think that these changes are fair and unbiased, and actually make sense, if you have ever been to Anaheim Hills. Stop changing it back to the original text because that text was poorly written! Ericsaindon2 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for starting to add references for some of your additions. However, links to plain websites like http://www.census.gov and http://www.dataquick.com are not really sufficient. You should try to reference an actual publication or URL. Mike Dillon 18:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, all you have to do is look at the edit history to see that I didn't write anything substantial in this article. Mike Dillon 18:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S. The only way we can be sure that it is "fair and unbiased" is if you cite your sources properly. As it is, it seems to be pushing the point of view that Anaheim Hills is so much better and different than the parent city of Anaheim (with a tone that smacks of bias to me). It's possible the sources support most of the "data points", but we can't know unless the sources can be reviewed. Mike Dillon 02:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

"City" of Anaheim Hills

Editors who repeatedly add references to the fictitious "city" of Anaheim Hills are effectivly vandalising this encyclopedia by adding untrue information. There is no seal of this non-existent city. There is no mayor. Anaheim Hills is a neighborhod of the city of Anaheim, and nothing more than that. I'm sure it's a fine neighborhood, but it is not a city. -Will Beback 19:36, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

It isn't just the seal. The map is also fictitious since there is no reference given for the official boundaries of this neighborhood. Without an official reference, we have know way of knowing whether the boundaries of Anaheim Hills were made up by the uploader. The page really should not have {{Infobox City}} and it definitely should not be in Category:Cities in Orange County, California. Mike Dillon 01:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I've added the {{disputed}} tag to this article because of the amount of revert warring going on in the last day. Readers have a right to know that this article could be changing under their feet and cannot be trusted until the disputes are resolved and things settle down. Mike Dillon 01:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Well then stop changing its contents. It is all factual, and why should I need to prove that there is a shopping center in Anaheim Hills. I LIVE THERE FOR GOD SAKE, ISNT THAT ENOUGH PROOF. It wouldnt be so disruptive and disputed if you just stopped trying to defy me, so go on to pick a fight with some other innocent Misplaced Pages user about their article because your unnecessary criticism is really getting old.-EricSaindon2

No, that isn't enough "proof". I'm afraid we'll have to keep "defying" you until you can sort out your references and pro-Anaheim Hills chauvinism. Mike Dillon 02:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S. You may want to sign your comments using ~~~~. It helps others follow the timing of the discussion and its participants. Mike Dillon 02:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

City tag for non-city

I removed the "city seal"; Anaheim Hills is not a city. Antandrus (talk) 04:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Summary of disputes

Since I ended up intimately involved in the disputes over this article that I don't really care about, I thought I'd summarize the situation:

1. Back in April, somebody started adding paragraphs upon paragraphs of unsourced, biased material to this article. User:Will Beback, a Misplaced Pages adminstrator involved with Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Southern California posted a "heads-up" at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Southern California#Anaheim Hills, California. Will asked for help from the project's editors with "archeological" editing, so I put it on my watchlist. After looking at the article, I made the bold decision to revert all of the changes instead of putting {{fact}} everywhere.
2. After a month passed, Ericsaindon2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) showed up and started making more unsourced additions to the article. I'm not sure if he was involved in the original changes, but he has a habit of switching between editing anonymously and logged-in; see the most recent IP edits: 69.232.54.105 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). I reverted his changes as original research and for the lack of citing sources. Despite what User:Ericsaindon2 has said elsewhere, this was unrelated to sourcing the "location of a store" but was related to two paragraphs of unsourced demographic information.
3. After I reverted three times (before violating 3RR myself), I put a note on User:Will Beback's talk page since he was an admin with knowledge of the situation. I added {{unreferenced}} and {{cleanup-tone}} to the article, but I didn't revert anything else until the next day. Ericsaindon2 reverted my changes and vandalized my userpage by adding the same two templates to my page.
4. After another admin (User:Zzyzx11) got involved, I eventually added {{disputed}} and put a note on the talk page. Ericsaindon2 reverted this again and vandalized my userpage with that template.

I basically haven't made any other edits since, leaving the situation to admins. I did add {{fact}} to the "Location in Orange County" claim in the infobox since the map does not make clear what the source of the official boundaries shown on the map are (I believe they were made up).

My fundamental objections are:

1. Unsourced demographic information attempting to support the biased opinion that the neighborhood of Anaheim Hills is "better" than the surrounding city of Anaheim. User:Ericsaindon2 added links to the article that were intended to be references, but they were actually plain domain names, not full URLs.
2. The fake "city seal" for Anaheim Hills, created by User:Ericsaindon2 (Image:Ahills.jpg and Image:Ahills65.jpg). This "seal" claims a 2007 incorporation/foundation date for the fake "city". There was an earlier fake city seal claiming a 2006 date that was created in April during the first round of problems with this article (probably by the same user).
3. The inclusion of this article in Category:Cities in Orange County, California, when it is not an incorporated city.
4. The use of {{Infobox City}}, a template intended for use only with incorporated cities.
5. The use of {{Orange County, California}}, a template used only on the county's article and the pages of incorporated cities in the county. Until a week or two ago, it was called {{Cities of Orange County, California}}.

All of these things lead readers to think that "Anaheim Hills" is its own city, not a neighborhood of Anaheim, California. I hope this explains my position clearly. Feel free to ask any question here or on my talk page. Mike Dillon 05:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Mike Dillon has correctly summarized the matter, and I agree with his objections. There are many facts that we can write about the district of Anaheim Hills, but we mustn't go beyond what is factual. That includes obfuscate its political situation. Should the neighborhood secede then we can decribe it as a city, until then it is a zipcode, a neighborhood. Intentionally inserting false information is either vandalism or, more politely, hoaxing. Either way it has no place in the project. But factual matters aside, Misplaced Pages has standards and procedural norms that've been disregarded. Edit warring will not be tolerated. This is a collaborative project and no one may insist that we must rely on their special knowledge as a reference. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. -Will Beback 08:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Page move

This page was moved from Anaheim Hills, California to Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California and back again. When it was first moved, double redirects were fixed, but when it was moved back they were not. I propose that this page be moved back to Anaheim Hills, Anaheim, California to agree with commonly accepted naming for neighborhoods of U.S. cities. If that doesn't happen, the double redirects should be fixed to point to the current name, Anaheim Hills, California. Mike Dillon 02:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Infobox City

Can someone please present an argument for including {{Infobox City}} in this article? It is an infobox intended for incorporated cities and its inclusion here leads to the mistaken impression that Anaheim Hills is a city (in case anyone missed this, it is a neighborhood in the city of Anaheim). Subtle alterations to the infobox to make it look like a neighborhood do not help matters since this infobox is usually only seen on the articles of real cities. We can wait until User:Ericsaindon2's block is done to discuss this, despite the fact that he's circumventing it with anonymous edits and a new account (User:Es92808 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)). Mike Dillon 03:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that one of the IP addresses just cited an external link to the rdesk.com database. In my opinion, it is not accurate because it is giving information for a specific address in Anaheim Hills (possibly his own address) located in a neighborhood full of large mansions, tennis courts, and swimming pools - not indicative of the entire community of Anaheim Hills as a whole. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it isn't really a source. I just put it in <ref> format to make it easier to put a real reference later. A real reference would be something that actually says the things claimed in the article, not a bunch of data. Mike Dillon 04:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

That is not my address, that is an address of a home in Anaheim Hills, California. The statistics on the page do not reflect the address itself (for the house is worth close to $5,000,000, but refer to the 92807/92808 zip code as a whole). A small $300,000 condominium home would come up with the same price in regards to Anaheim Hills. This reference refers to ALL of the ANAHEIM HILLS area.-Ericsaindon2

Eric, would you mind addressing why you think {{Infobox City}} should be used in this article? It is quite misleading to make this article look like a city article. User:Will Beback suggested elsewhere that this may be a reason to have a specific infobox for neighborhoods that makes it clear that they are part of a city. Presumably, it would not have all the governmental stuff that make the city infobox look so "official".

Also, what is your source for the boundaries shown in the map in this article? They should be listed on the image description page (Image:Anaheimhills3.JPG), especially since they likely aren't official borders. I'm assuming you took the borders of 92807 and 92808 and eyeballed the cutoff of the 91 freeway. Mike Dillon 04:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I dont know how to state my source for the boundaries on the map. I enlarged the Orange County template to match a Rand Mcnally map I have of the Orange County area so that the borders matched up. Then I traced the borders and decreased the image back to normal size. I am not sure how to cite that?-Ericsaindon2

I suppose you would identify the specific Rand McNally publication (which should have an ISBN) and state something like "approximate boundaries added by User:Ericsaindon2 from Rand McNally publication name". Of course, it would be interesting to see how official Rand McNally's boundaries are for neighborhoods like Anaheim Hills. Mike Dillon 05:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

A better map would show the position of the Anaheim Hills neighborhood within the city of Anaheim. That would go far toward making the area's status more clear. Mike Dillon 05:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't look like anyone is willing to make an argument for why the city infobox should be used on a non-city article, so I'm removing it. This notice has been up for almost a week and all known interested parties have made other edits to the article and talk page. Mike Dillon 14:43, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Detailed Map

I have included a detailed map of the Anaheim Hills area at a more close up view. I hope it clears up any confusion that you may have had about the Anaheim Hills boundaries. Yes, I know the map does need some updating, but it is the best I could do.......for now.--Ericsaindon2 06:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for adding that. What is the authority for this map's boundaries? Does the City of Anaheim have official boundraies for its neighborhoods? From the description it appears that the boundaries are not the same as a Zip code, unlike many neighborhoods. Are there census tracts? Lastly, please don't post copyrighted images on Misplaced Pages, except in very limited circumstances. -Will Beback 06:44, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

The Anaheim Hills area designated all areas south of the 91 freeway under their Canyon and Hill area General Plan with the city of Anaheim, a more specific governmental representation division for the large city. This area became known as Anaheim Hills when Anaheim bought this part of the city in 1972 from the City of Orange and the Peralta Family Farm. The zip codes are divided between Anaheim Hills and Anaheim because part of the 92807 (north of the 91 freeway) was part of Anaheim during its 1857 incorporation. The 92807 zip code was added upon when the Peralta Land was purchased in 1972 to add on to this zip code. When the zip code far exceeded the recommended the number of residents per zip code, the eastern portion of the area became the 92808 zip code. So that is why and how Anaheim Hills defined its unofficial boundaries. Many maps are avalible, but are either copywrited or costly to download. Anaheim does allow you to purchase the Anaheim Hills General Plan Map at their convention center, but the best way I have found was using a blank map and shading in the areas described in official text. --70.237.91.134 22:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking at the City of Anaheim's General Plan. It makes no mention of a neighborhood called "Anaheim Hills", only the "Hill and Canyon Area". It does mention "West Anaheim", which elsewhere you wrote is not officialy designated. So are you asserting that Hill and Canyon Area is the same as Anaheim Hills, and if so, what is your source? -Will Beback 01:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is a picture of 1/11 of these signs that is scattered marking the borders of Anaheim Hills since you seem to believe it does not exist. L_welcome_pagestack1_006.jpg-Ericsaindon2

The correct link to the image is Image:L_welcome_pagestack1_006.jpg. Soltras 05:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

That image, Image:L_welcome_pagestack1_006.jpg, appears to be the same as Image:Anaheim Hills 6.jpg. It reads, "Anaheim Hills: Planned Community Association". So, it's not a city, and it's not a recognized neighborhood. It's an "association". Are we sure that the association covers the same ground as the "Hill and Canyon Area"? -Will Beback 06:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

From what I can tell, "Anaheim Hills" is a development within the Hill and Canyon Area, but is not the entire area. Here it's described as a "3,000 lot master community". This real estate site calls it a neighborhood , but since the city doesn't it is a bit iffy. -Will Beback 06:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I will try to clear this up again. The Anaheim Hills Community Asssociation is just one of nearly seven community associations in the Anaheim Hills area (and yes it is the larges of them). ALL areas in Anaheim Hills are under an association, or it is not part of Anaheim Hills according to the outline of the Canyon and Hill area General Plan. Excluding the parts north of the 91 freeway, all of the Canyon and Hill General Plan is Anaheim Hills, but since these areas north of the 91 freeway dont pay one of Anaheim Hills's many association fees, they are not considered Anaheim Hills. I showed you this picture because I thought that you got the impression that Anaheim Hills served as a name for merely nothing. It wasnt to prove the point of its community association, it was to show you that the term Anaheim HIlls does exist. --70.237.91.134 20:31, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

So Anaheim Hills is a consortium of developments/HOAs that occupies parts of the officially recognized Hill and Canyon Area? -Will Beback 21:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think you are finally getting it! However, not all areas of Anaheim Hills are under an Association fee, but all areas of the Canyon and Hill Area General Plan do benefit from the Associations paid by these residents. As you can probably assume, Anaheim Hills has tried to reincorporate dozens of times over the years, and I think that since Anaheim Hills fits a model equation for a city after its development over the past twenty years, cityship for Anaheim Hills is not far away.--70.237.91.134 05:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, it's an unusual arrangement, but perhaps increasingly common. Regarding cityhood, I personally doubt we'll see it anytime soon. First, in all of the research I've done I haven't seen any mention of a movement for independence. Second, such a city would have very little sales tax base (the main source of income for most Califorina cities), and so probably would not be economically viable. Bedroom communities don't work as cities. That's my opinion, but it leads me to question any assertions of a meaningingful independence movement. -Will Beback 07:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Demographics

How did you determine the census and demographics figures? Whenever I try to enter "Anahiem Hills" at http://factfinder.census.gov, all I get is that it "cannot find any information for the location you specified". Zzyzx11 (Talk) 07:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

My guess is that it was probably retabulated from the 92807 and 92807 ZCTA data. This would be fine if it were more explicit about the source (cf. Ladera Ranch, California#Demographic estimates). Mike Dillon 14:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Here are some links for the ZCTA data: 92807, 92808. I spot-checked that the numbers in this article match the combination of the two ZIPs by recalculating the African American number of 0.2% (632 + 418 / 36283 + 19612). The ZCTA reference maps are here: 92807, 92808. Mike Dillon 15:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, as long as someone rewrites the section to be more like Ladera Ranch, California#Demographic estimates, I am fine by that. But then that leads back to the original question posted above: What are exactly the boundaries of Anaheim Hills? Of course, if you enter "Anaheim Hills" into the USPS Zip code finder, it lists 92807, 92808, 92809, and 92817 (which is designated for PO Boxes only). Zzyzx11 (Talk) 16:00, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how I messed up the math, but the actual statistic is 1.87%. I guess no published statistics match the "0.2%" in the article. Mike Dillon 03:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

These demographics are avalible by using ONLY the 92808 zip codes statistics. Since Anaheim Hills only contains parts of the 92807 zip code, the 92807 zip code cannot be used in a census search. The parts of Anaheim Hills in the 92807 are greatly outnumbered by the other noninclusive parts of Anaheim that contain the 92807 zip code. When the OC Register does statistics and figures regarding Anaheim HIlls, all data can be found on the DataQuick database, although the OC Register does pay alot of money for access to this private organizations information. --Ericsaindon2 02:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Then how come the "Black or African American" statistic for the 92808 ZCTA says "2.1" percent and the change you made on May 19 says "0.2" percent? Mike Dillon 03:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Because like I told you, the counted zip code, 92808, may say 2.1, but you bare not including the WHOLE PICTURE. This sector of the 92807 zip code is nearly .5%, which nulls that 2.1% out. But when looking at the 92807 zip code in its entirety, you can clearly see that the african american population is significantly higher, because the parts of the 92807 zip code that are not in Anaheim Hills have a significantly higher African American population than the 92807 Anaheim Hills parts. This MUST be calculated using neigborhood statistics and not zip code statistics, like I have done. --70.237.91.134 05:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)