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	:::If the Encyclopedia on World Biography should be counted a source, you need to show which sources they used. AND most important: which pages are used from that Encyclopedia because a site reference here is not enough!		:::If the Encyclopedia on World Biography should be counted a source, you need to show which sources they used. AND most important: which pages are used from that Encyclopedia because a site reference here is not enough!
	---(] (]) 11:09, 18 May 2013 (UTC))		---(] (]) 11:09, 18 May 2013 (UTC))
			:So because the historian is himself Kurdish...he isn't a reliable source? That's one of the most blatantly racist things I've ever seen on a talk page. You're both new, so I will try to avoid ] and simply recommend that you both review ] - Alisan and the IP address above. Please don't try to edit the page until you have acknowledged that you both reviewed the page on identifying them and can then come back here and make actual policy-based arguments for what you're claiming. I don't particularly care about the subject either way (no disrespect to Saladin, my interests just lie elsewhere) but if this sort of complete disregard for site policies and guidelines continues, then this discussion will likely be brought higher up and if you aren't aware of site policies and guidelines, then your viewpoints will likely be discounted. ] (]) 12:07, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

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He was of Turkic Origin

He was of Turkic origin.
Any sources? 194.11.254.132 (talk) 07:42, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Note

Dear Wikipeadia-people,

As a Kurd I am most deeply insulted by seeing an Arabic translation of Saladins name in front of the Kurdish one. I believe that to be erreonorous since Saladin was a Kurd. Thus the Kurdish name should be placed first, if one wishes to place an Arabic text at all !

I do not see any reason (historical or cultural) why there should be an Arabic translation of his name. Afteral he was a Kurd, depite of what Arab nationalists say.

I dont see Queen Elizabeth getting an Arab name attachd to her English name, why so here ? Just because westerners preceive us all to be the same, doesn't make us the same or speak the same language. The rest of the world should respect that.

So I believe that removing the Arabic translation would be the correct thing to do, since there is no justification on helping Arabs claim parts of history that was not there own, to put it straight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.208.122.181 (talk) 21:05, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

There is no reason to be offended. Saladin wrote and corresponded in Arabic, and others wrote about him in Arabic. There is no record of him doing anything in Kurdish, only a record that he was ethnically Kurdish. It is only natural that we include his name the way he and others during his time wrote it, in Arabic. (And, obviously, he did not write his name in the Hawar alphabet, as is currently in the article.) Adam Bishop (talk) 03:31, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

You absolutley miss the point here,

you claim: 'Saladin wrote and corresponded in Arabic and others wrote about him in Arabic' that is absolutley no reason to "include" an Arabic translation of his name.

You don't suppose that people should include an Arabic translation of Napoleon beacause Arabs wrote about him to, do ya ? (by the way Arabs where not the only ones writing about Saladin, so why shouldn't we put a French or middle English translation of his name there too?)

Corresponding with Arabs at the time in Arabic doesn't make you an Arab, just as corresponding in English with you doesn't make me an American. In others words: The only right criteria is his etnicity. Just as is the case with all other persons on Misplaced Pages.

As an fellow academic I respect your arguments, but I find them to be erronerous. I'll wait for your reply, and will change the text if I see no further objections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.208.122.181 (talk) 22:45, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that is the point. All we know is that he was ethnically Kurdish. We don't even know if he spoke Kurdish; for example, Usama ibn Munqidh, who often notes that he can't understand someone blabbering in other languages, freely conversed with Saladin in Arabic. Saladin's empire had Arabs, Kurds, Turks, and all sorts of other people, but is there anything particularly Kurdish about him or his state? It is totally Arab, or even Turkic. We also do this for other medieval people, in Europe - say, Frederick Barbarossa. It would be silly to insist on using his name in German, just because he was ethnically German, and to omit any reference to his name in Latin, the language of Europe at the time. Being German was just not very important then. And I don't mean to be insulting, but being Kurdish was not very important either. It was an interesting fact, but has almost nothing to do with the rest of his life. There was no Kurdish nationalism back then and Saladin's empire was not a "Kurdish state" equivalent to modern ideas of Kurdistan. We need to use the Arabic because Arabic was the language of Saladin's world. Noting his modern Kurdish name is fine, but not to the exclusion of the Arabic. (And we do use his name in French/English - the title of the page is Saladin, after all!) Adam Bishop (talk) 23:04, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

saladin whas kurdish!

every book every website every documentary you see will say the same turks/arabs try to spread propoganda cause they have no history of their own they are obsessed he`s greatest generals were kurdish all them confirm that he whas kurdish turks and arabs stop spreading false information to make your own people better

he´s relatives had kurdish names he´s own name is kurdish too infact he whas from a kurdish tribe from dvin i think! all the texts comfirm of him being kurdish

remember this is the 11th century AD writing system whas developed long time ago..............i would understand if it whas bc but it is only 900 year´s ago not so long as you think!

as long as we know he whas kurdish people should accept this and move on

still kurdish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.160.183.70 (talk) 20:10, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

SOMEBODY REMOVED MY REPLY !!!! PLEASE SEE TO IT IF YOU WISH TO DISCUSS THIS MATTER. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.208.122.181 (talk) 02:18, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't look like anyone removed it...I don't know what happened. Can you post it again? Adam Bishop (talk) 04:15, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

No, that is incorrect.

The point is that we're writing about Saladin now, (in the 21 century) in English and thus could refer to his Kurdish name, and the way it should be pronounced or written in Kurdish but not to an Arabic translation of his original Kurdish name.

Because other people conversing with him in Arabic doesn't make Saladin an Arab or forget his own language, Saladin was an etnic kurd, he himself, his officers, and his empire was an Kurdish Dysnasty. It is true that his army wasn't, but to claim the Ayybid dysnasty was an Arabic dynasty would be like claiming that that the Mughal empire was Indian.

It not Kurdish nationalism claiming or Kurdifing Saladin, but the other way around. The lack of establishd Kurdish identity (in the 21 century) that causes Arabs, Turks and Persians to “claim” Saladin to them selfs. By including an Arab translation of his name. Be my guest and take a look on the Ayyubîd-dynasty page on Misplaced Pages (and don't forget to check the discussion board), and see for your self: it was an Kurdish Dynasty.

So it should be an English article withe a references to his Kurdish name.

To prevent the Arabification of Saladin.

By the way I havn't seen Barbarossas name in Latin (maybe beacause it's an article on Barbarossa, an etnic German, and not about Latin texts about Barbarossa in mediaval history) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.208.122.181 (talk) 14:20, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Barbarossa is Italian. Not German anyway, which was the point being made.86.167.12.34 (talk) 21:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

But we don't even know his Kurdish name. He has an Arabic laqab (as I'm sure you will agree "Salah ad-Din" is an entirely Arabic construction), and a general religious name (Yusuf) that is popular in Arabic; what is Kurdish about this? His father is the same way. His uncle Shirkuh, at least, seems to have a Kurdish name, or perhaps a Persian one. You want to give priority to his "Kurdish name", but that really means the modern Kurdish spelling of an Arabic name. What does that have to do with Saladin? Of course we can mention it, but as I said, not to the exclusion of the Arabic. We should also say everything we know about this subject, which, unfortunately, is only that he was recognized as being ethnically Kurdish. We can't say "he was a Kurd who ruled a Kurdish empire", because it is not that simple. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:27, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Adam's argument is valid. Saladin had an Arabic name, his military and lieutenants were Turkic, and the cultured he revered was Arabic and Persian. There is no point in fantasizing that he valued his "Kurdish identity", a 20th century concept. If he had, he would not have had an Arabic name. In fact, the only reference to his Kurdish identity comes from a disputed phrase, where he is actually being "accused" of being Kurdish. We have no claim that he considered himself as Kurdish. Cleobella (talk) 08:52, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

This is a no discussion, even though he was kurdish, his name is an arabic name and should be written in its properway. If you would say Salah ad-Din as a kurdish name, it's nothing but if you read it in arabic it gets a proper meaning... I can't see why it should be written in kurdish anyhow as it is definitely not the way his name was written or pronounced... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.253.254.48 (talk) 19:42, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

This is meaningless construction of idea walking over the name to find ethnicity. My uncles name is Muhammed and we are Kurdish. Kurds and Arabs and Turks and Persians always been together because of belonging to the same religion. Sooooo, having names between any of those ethnicity, it is just decision of father; we can say. May be did not this as well; the family of Salahaddin is Kurdish but lived with Arabic Eyyubis... Clear enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.104.56.194 (talk) 16:56, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Saladin's Relationship With Nur-ad-din Zengi

I always have seen this Saladin and Nur-ad-din Zengi portrayed as rivals,however that is not the case infact saladin was a student of Nur-ad-din Zengi and they had immense respect for each other and saladin was helped by Nur-ad-din Zengi when saladin wanted to take most of the forts from the crusaders during the fight against the oppression. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Introduction of Farsi in lead

This is not necessary; he was a semi-Turkicized Kurd who spoke Arabic, therefore I don't see why having his Farsi name is relevant. Also, there is no need to place "Persian" ahead of Arab or Kurdish in the sentence. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:57, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Films and computer games

Any objections to cutting the whole paragraph about films and computer games? Without a source to say these are notable depictions the paragraph seems trivial. There must be thousands of cultural depictions of Saladin. We should only cover those depictions found notable as depictions, not all the ones that occur in notable works of art, otherwise there would be no limit. Mike Christie (talk) 11:10, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I made this same suggestion recently , so I definitely support its removal. Kafka Liz (talk) 11:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, not encyclopedic at all. --Al Ameer son (talk) 00:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Three for and no one against so far; I'm going to cut the paragraph. If anyone reverts we can take it back here to talk. Mike Christie (talk) 00:32, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

-I would suggest making a new section called "Saladin in popular culture" as is common for many icons like this. TheQw 10:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheQw (talk • contribs)

Cleaning up article

This article needs to be cleaned up. A lot of confusion comes out of the complicated names that most westerners are not familiar with, so the language needs to be re-structured to include more informal terms in collaboration with the formal names, using using "his uncle" in some sentences rather than the name "Shirkuh" - this will avoid names of people and places some times appearing to be unexplained or newly introduced. The first section "early expeditions" especially suffers from this stringent structure. It needs to flow better instead of being so dry.

In that particular section (Early expeditions), the role of the crusaders, where they came from, why they were involved and both who they supported and why needs to be included because that information is currently painstakingly missing.

TheQw 10:52, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Allenby

This passage is at the very least not accurate. According to the some sources, British Commender General Edmund Allenby during World War I, proudly declared "today the wars of the Crusaders are completed " by rising up his sword towards statue of Saladin after capture of Damascus from Turkish troops.

in 1920, there was no Statue of Saladin in Damascus. There was the mausoleum of Saladin, but the statue was not erected until the 1990s. Yazan (talk) 07:16, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

please note in the text as it reads right now the first quotation mark is missing.

68.118.52.121 (talk) 08:55, 30 September 2011 (UTC) Shadow Dragon.

Dante

It's very interesting, and very significative of the great respect that Europeans had for Saladin, that he's the ONLY MUSLIM that Dante Alighieri put in the Limbo with the other "virtous pagan". And we're talking of Dante, who put Mohammed the Prophet in Hell, with a punishment which I prefer to not talk about ;-) Misplaced Pages page should report that, in the apposite section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.24.36.21 (talk) 22:26, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

More Kurdish stuff

I don't know why that Minorsky article quotes Ibn al-Athir quoting someone else, because al-Athir also says directly that Saladin's family was Kurdish; he says Najm ad-Din and Asad ad-Din "were from the town of Dvin and were Rawadi Kurds in origin, which lineage is the noblest of the Kurds." (This is page 176-77 of vol. 2 of D. S. Richards' translation.) I'd add this to the article but people kick up such a fuss about primary sources here...anyway, it couldn't be much clearer than that. The person who earlier today added that he was a Kipchak Mamluk is seriously confused. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

order of his names in different languages

lets say Saladin is of Kurdish background although nobody did see him speak Kurdish, and since the ayyubid state ruled over mostly Arab-populated middle east and its official language was Arabic, we put his Arabic name. (actually Kurdish names comes from Arabic but thats not the point) my question is, if somebody is of different ancestry although he/she was assimilated oradopted new culture, should we use his/her ancestral name or adopted name. that would change so many articles, especially about Turko-Persian dynesties. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.10.19.53 (talk) 23:40, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Runciman

The section on the capture of Jerusalem cites 84, which leads only to the historian Steven Runciman. It doesn't list the actual source of his words. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.194.230 (talk) 08:21, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Vol 2, p 465, from the look of it. Details added. Roger Davies 08:41, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Through Muqaddimah of Ibn Khaldun, Saladin was a Turkish Muslim.

Easy to prove with the 2nd tome of Muqaddimah of Ibn Khaldun shows us that, Saladin was Turk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.227.161.181 (talk) 16:10, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, first, where exactly does Ibn Khaldun say this? (I would like to read it.) Second, Ibn Khaldun was from an entirely different part of the Muslim world and was writing 200 years later. If he says Saladin was a Turk, it is entirely possible that he was wrong, or he is using the word "Turk" in an unexpected way. In other words this is not "easy to prove" at all, especially when writers who actually knew Saladin and were writing within his lifetime say that he was a Kurd. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:57, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, one of Saladins brothers name was 'Tacilmürük Böri'. Böri is a pure-pure-Turkish word for 'gray Wolf'. Also, the gray Wolf has a mythological importance for every Turkic people. Search for 'Asena' and 'Ergenekon'. So it's not an logical chosen name for a Kurdish boy... One another brother of Saladin was 'Turan Shah', search for 'Turan' and you'll be convinced, I hope. (Turan is Persian, which means nothing more than 'Turkish', so the name says 'Turkish Ruler'...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.224.112.30 (talk) 04:27, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh, this reminded me to look up the Muqaddimah, where Ibn Khaldun refers to the Mamluk dynasty in Egypt as Turkish; he said it originated with Saladin, but not necessarily that Saladin was Turkish. And in one place he calls him "al-Kurdi". As for his brothers' names, do you think names unambiguously refer to ethnicity? Saladin's name was Yusuf, which, along with my own name, is Hebrew; perhaps Saladin and I are actually Jews? Adam Bishop (talk) 15:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

(To Bishop) Ancient historians used several titles such as "al-Kurdi", "al-Rumi", "al-Turki" and "al-Arabi" for famous persons. But they didn't use these titles due to those persons' ethnicity. If a person was born and lived in a land where Rums were outnumbering, people called them as "al-Rumi". For example, Jalāl ad-Dīn Muḥammad Balkhī is called "al-Rumi" since he lived most of his life in an area of Rums (Greeks). So can you claim Rumi was of Greek origin? Anyway what's your resource for claiming Saladin was of Kurdish origin? You say "Ibn Khaldun was from an entirely different part of the Muslim world and was writing 200 years later." In which resource of that time, was it called he was of Kurdish origin? Your resources are also of the historians who lived 1000 years later from Saladin and are from a very very far part of the world (even not from the Muslim world). Anyway, I believe that some plotters (they might be also Jews like you) play on Kurds in the Middle East (so they are trying to emerge Kurdish nationalism in the area of Syria, Iraq, Iran and Turkey) , but the time will show who will win. 78.170.100.152 (talk) 18:17, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Is he an Arab or Kurdish?

I won't start insulting people like some people did here, claiming that Arabs and turkish have no history!

But this site is about knowledge and information, not about judging it, and no one here is able to claim that he has the only truth.

Now there are books, and quotes, written by the Ayubid kings ans princes themselves claiming that they are not kurdish, but that they are, Arab. we should write that, and let people know it, and they have the right to believe it or not.

I believe he is an Arab, by Identity, language, and culture, even if he had a kurdish blood or not, like Obama, his father was not an americain, but he is. the same thing Saladin, maybe was a kurd, but he livesd in Arab countries (Egypt, Syria and Iraq), Spoke and wrote in Arabic, we have no evidence that he spoke in Kurdish, he has a massive knoledge about Arab history, language and even genealogy. so he became an Arab, and so did his family. now, if that does not matter for some people, it is ok, the question is, why did many Ayubid kings claim to be Arab, knowing that at that time the arab did not have power as the Turks or the Persian for example.

The book main book is "Nassab Al Ayubiin (The genealogy of the Ayubid)" by "Al-Malek Al-Amjad Al-Hassan Ibn Al-Malek Al-Nasser Dawud Ibn Al-malek Al-Muazim Isa Ibn Al-malek Al-Adel Muhammed Ibn Ayub" as we see, the book was written by the Great nephew of Saladin himself, and he says in the book that none of his relatives know anything about the Kurdish genealogy. and many of them accepted the Arabic genealogy.

Its been established that his ethnicity (i.e. lineage) was Kurdish, if you define an Arab by means of language/culture then Arab is not an ethnicity but a linguistic/cultural identity and hes still an ethnic Kurd since his lineage was; if youre Muslim you need to stop this ethno-centric nonsense, it doesnt really matter but the fact remains he was a Kurd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scythian Saka (talk • contribs) 20:14, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Is he an Arab or Kurdish?

I won't start insulting people like some people did here, claiming that Arabs and turkish have no history!

But this site is about knowledge and information, not about judging it, and no one here is able to claim that he has the only truth.

The main book is "Nassab Al Ayubiin (The genealogy of the Ayubid)" by "Al-Malek Al-Amjad Al-Hassan Ibn Al-Malek Al-Nasser Dawud Ibn Al-malek Al-Muazim Isa Ibn Al-malek Al-Adel Muhammed Ibn Ayub" as we see, the book was written by the Great nephew of Saladin himself, and he says in the book that none of his relatives know anything about the Kurdish genealogy. and many of them accepted the Arabic genealogy. and there are many books, I may talk about them later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maamardli (talk • contribs) 19:09, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

There are many poems which Salahaddin wrote. One of his brothers and his mother was definitely known as Turk and everybody knows the relationship with Nuraddin. So he is a Turk. Living and ruling Arab country doesnt make someone Arab. Turks ruled Greeks for 400 years, anybody claim that Mohammad II to be Greek?

Ibn Haldun says he is Turk but some French historian said that he is a Kurd, then whole World started to mention about him as Kurd. This is pure politics lads. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.184.174.11 (talk) 14:16, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Is he an Arab or Kurdish?

I want to correct something in my pervious message, the exact book's name is "Al-Fawaid Al-Jalya fi Al-Faraid Al-Nassirya" by Al-Malek Al-Amjad Al-Hassan Ibn Al-Malek Al-Nasser Dawud Ibn Al-malek Al-Muazim Isa Ibn Al-malek Al-Adel Muhammed Ibn Ayub. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maamardli (talk • contribs) 19:22, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Is that the authors name? I hate to fill out a form with his name ~ Zirguezi 22:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Saladin was not a Kurdish

Be Careful!

In here just Kurdish people say that Saladin was a Kurdish!!! No one else claim that Saladin was a Kurdish. --24.254.157.196 (talk) 06:33, 1 March 2011 (UTC)Saladin grondfather was in the Muslims army that took Islam from Maka to others palces in the midll esat when his grundfather came bake to Arab state he came to Iraq and the pepole called him Kurdish and that why some pepole think he was Kurdish — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cedumay (talk • contribs) 20:39, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Steed, Brian L., Piercing the Fog of War: Recognizing Change on the Battlefield, (Zenith Press, 2009), 176;"Saladin was a Kurd from Tikrit.". --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:23, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's not really authoritative about Saladin's ethnicity, but as we've discussed on this page many dozens of times before, contemporary sources agree that his family was Kurdish, and no credible modern source has found any reason to doubt this. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:15, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

no others don´t claim that saladin whas kurdish...........but all the texts and history books all the documentiries he whas kurdish a ethnic kurd many arabs and turks agree but some are ignorant —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.66.142 (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

The Arabs in History, by Bernard Lewis, p169; "...the Ayyubids themselves were Kurds in origin...". --Kansas Bear (talk) 07:05, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Linklights

In the source it's just all one word, maybe the space should be removed. I don't know though, because I have no clue what the godforsaken things are. They sound really neat, he gives them to his men to stop intruders. Are they torches hooked together by strings, so if one falls or gets tugged on, the other men come running? I don't know!

I looked through Google Books, and found one source that says, "The old musket will soon be in the category of brimstone matches, sedan chairs, the dodo, and link-lights a memory of the past." He's wrong! We don't remember! 68.80.249.86 (talk) 14:32, 6 January 2011 (UTC)Quba Osman

Translation of name

I think that it would be useful for a translation into English of Saladin's name to be placed in the introduction. Not many people in the West know that "Saladin" was not a personal name at all but a 'praise-name.' Also his additional title Al-malik An-nasir isn't mentioned. Some reference to the literal translation of his name "Strength-of-the-Faith, Joseph, the Great King" should appear prominently.Urselius (talk) 09:32, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I added a bit about this in the Early life section. I guess we could add al-Malik an-Nasir too, but that title isn't really specific to him, and he had a bunch of other titles too. (I think Ibn al-Qalanisi lists Zengi's titles and it goes on for a page or more, haha...it's probably the same for Saladin.) Adam Bishop (talk) 06:51, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Someone should remove the blurb about the archeological site in the section "Muslim World"

Among the forts he built was Qalaat al-Gindi, a mountaintop fortress and caravanserai in the Sinai. The fortress overlooks a large wadi which was the convergence of several caravan routes that linked Egypt and the Middle East. Inside the structure are a number of large vaulted rooms hewn out of rock, including the remains of shops and a water cistern. A notable archaeological site, it was investigated in 1909 by a French team under Jules Barthoux

This clearly has little or nothing to do with the article. Likely it was submitted by someone who worked on the dig or is a supporter of Jules Barthoux. The story may be accurate and referenced, but it is completely irrelevant and only of interest to a VERY few. Someone with unrestricted access should remove this unnecessary piece of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.247.127.142 (talk) 07:33, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Agreed and done. Nev1 (talk) 00:30, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

important problem abaut sources

you know enclopedia dramatica was listed as a source for saladin being a kurdish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.174.65.159 (talk) 21:02, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Where? Adam Bishop (talk) 08:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

im from salahaddins family and we are kurds!

hello, salahaddin is from our family ,we are form salahaddisn family and we are kurds ,salahattan is not arab.

greets —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.182.47.16 (talk) 10:55, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

saying kurd does not make him kurd

your efforts are useless. In history depertmant of leading universities of the world accept Saladin as a Turk. By the why, nobody cares what if he is turk or kurd. Why are you misleading history for individual ambitious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cedumay (talk • contribs) 17:28, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Talk is cheap. These sources state he was a Kurd.

Steed, Brian L., Piercing the Fog of War: Recognizing Change on the Battlefield, (Zenith Press, 2009), 176;"Saladin was a Kurd from Tikrit.".
"Encyclopedia of World Biography on Saladin". http://www.bookrags.com/biography/saladin/. Retrieved August 20, 2008.
A number of contemporary sources make note of this. The biographer Ibn Khallikan writes, "Historians agree in stating that father and family belonged to Duwin ....They were Kurds and belonged to the Rawādiya (sic), which is a branch of the great tribe al-Hadāniya": Minorsky (1953), p. 124. The medieval historian Ibn Athir relates a passage from another commander: "...both you and Saladin are Kurds and you will not let power pass into the hands of the Turks": Minorsky (1953), p. 138.
Moors' Islamic Cultural Home souvenir III, 1970–1976‎ Islamic Cultural Home, 1978, p. 7.
Saladin: The Politics of the Holy Warm, Cambridge University Press, Page 4.
The Kurdish nationalist movement, Cambridge University Press, Page 109.
Sandcastles: The Arabs in Search of the Modern World, Syracuse University Press, Page 122.
The crusades: Islamic perspectives, Edinburgh University Press, Page 594.
The Oxford history of the Crusades, Oxford University Press.
Columbia University oriental studies: Volume 5, Columbia University Press, Page 81.
Encyclopedia of Islam, E.J.Brill(2002), Vol. XI, p 189.

Etc, . --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:46, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Because everybody says he was kurdish don`t make him kurdish in any way. You just take passages from Minorsky for example. You're not able to see the links. It's interesting when people talk about the orient when they have nothing to do with there.

Saladins brothers had turkish names; Turanşah, Tuğtekin or Böri (means Wulf) Yakubî says that the Revadî are yemenic Arabs (from Revvâd b. El-Musanna el-Ezdî) They got from Yemen to Tebriz and with time they could rule there. Also with time pass, nobody could/did differentiate them from the Hezbanî Kurds That's also the reason why ibn Hallikan, Ibnu'l Esîr or the Kurd Şerefeddin called them just Kurds. Under the reign of the Turks they mixed with the Turks. That's the reason why Saladins brothers have turkish Names. Saladins mother is ethnically "complete" turkish. His uncle or brother-in-laws name was Muzafferüddin Gökböri Now how did he lived is important. He was a commanding officer in Sultan Nureddins army. So he had to be seen as a Turk because Turks trusted in the Army in commanding positions only on Turks or assimilated people. That he wrote arabic is normal. Because Turks used in that time for mostly bureaucracy arabic or persian. Also that he divided shortly before his death his empire under his sons is turkish. That's called ülüş. That the Ayyubî and Mameluke Empire was ruled turkish way (In Military and administration (high) positions trusting on turks and bureaucracy non-turkish) is showing that he felt turkish.

So Saladin thought like a turk, ruled like a turk, fought like a turk and lived like a turk. From origin he was yemenic arab then mixed and assimilated by turks. The less he was, was a Kurd. Therefore calling him an Kurd is just wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.2.141.159 (talk) 18:54, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Pity you do not have any published university sources to go with your wine. Compared to the SIX university sources that state he is Kurdish, not to mention the Encyclopedia of Islam which is authored and edited by experts in their fields. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:54, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Add Amin Maalouf, The Crusades Through Arab Eyes supporting Kurdish descent. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:44, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's not very fair - the poster makes some good points. But we don't know what that all means - was he Turkic himself, or did he just adapt to a Turkified military structure? To make things more confusing, I was just reading the other day that one of Saladin's brothers or sons, I forget which one, sometimes spoke Persian so his Arab and Turkic troops wouldn't be able to understand him. In any case, Maalouf is not a reliable source, since that book is almost a novel. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:37, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I think the basic problem is that the OP (and his series of predecessors) project modern nationalistic interpretations back to a time where they are not applicable. Saladin was a Kurd, but he lived in a time and society where that was not particularly relevant - the people of the region spoke Greek, Arabic and Persian as the major languages of trade and administration. Political centrifugal forces were e.g. on the level of city state, and not primarily based on ethnicity. And the unifying force of the upper crust was Islam and the culture of the Islamic Golden Age. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:59, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Kansas Bear why are you so upset? I have good arguments and I wanted to show why I think he's yemenic-turkish. In Minorsky's "Prehistory of Saladin" he is highlighting that the Revadî Kurds are not from Caucasus and that they came from the near of Arbil. And if you know Yaqubî then it's make sense that he wrote that they are yemenic. And that Saladin's family got mixed up with the turks is a fact. (You can find it written by Abu Shame, Al Bundarî, Ibnu'l Esîr, Al Ashraf, Al Zehebî, Al Maqrizî, Al Yuninî and so on..) How he lived ruled etc. is a fact too. So I have good points and it's therefore not necessary to cry and to tell "but the universities..." history has many points and views. What I wrote is just logical if you think about it. And no I'm not a nationalist and I see Saladin as common value for the middle eastern culture and history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.2.141.159 (talk) 23:37, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Highly POV section

I am removing the highly POV section "Religious intolerance and a deceptive media view" which is referenced by http://www.coptichistory.org/new_page_115.htm and is not written in English and from what I can tell, is unpublished. If such facts exist then they can be found in English sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:18, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

It's an interesting subject, but the way it has been added is inappropriate. Saladin's relationship with the Copts was not unequivocally positive or negative, and the same could probably be said for all the other religious groups who lived in Ayyubid territories, whether in Syria or Egypt. Sometimes he favoured them, sometimes he didn't. They were probably worse off under the Mamluks though. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:34, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Not commenting about the removal of the section, but just noting that while non english sources are prefered, they are not mandatory. Additionally "published" is not a requirement for verifiability (although the particular website in question could of course have issues that would make it not a good source - But im sure many many historical wiki pages use english sites of similar quality/reliability. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:10, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, Verifiability states this:The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source....

According to Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources:Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published sources....

Therefore, being published is a requirement.

Many historical wiki pages are in dire need of reliable sourcing and not the opinion(s) of some website(s). --Kansas Bear (talk) 06:09, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that particular resource should be used, but it's worth noting that "published" can also mean "published online". That doesn't extend as far as self-publishing online, though. 77.250.97.191 (talk) 12:50, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

It's still going on, and two IPs are involved (User:41.238.175.239 and User:41.239.188.231 on top of User:41.232.129.159 in September) so I've semi-protected it for a month. It's worth noting that the same two IPs who most recently made these edits did something similar at the Hagia Sophia article, which I've also protected. Nev1 (talk) 01:17, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

POINTS TO CLARIFY

I come to this article have very little knowledge of Saladin and only a vague sense of the history of this area in this time period. I felt the article was comprehensive but unclear in a number of respects, including the following:

1. first paragraph "and founded the Ayyubid dynasty." should add: which, based in Eqypt, briefly ruled much of the Middle East during the 12th and 13th centuries CE. Otherwise one has no idea what the importance of the "Ayyubid dynasty" is.

2. Second paragraph - seems written from a very Western-centric point of view. Reading the article my sense was that Saladin's primary importance was his dominance over the various power centers that existed in the Levant at the beginning of his career. His conquest over the European Crusaders was only a small part of his effect on the region and, indeed it seems, may have been incidental compared to his taking power in Egypt and Syria. As I read it, Saladin may have had more lasting fame in Europe than in the Middle East until the rise of Arab nationalism in the 19th/20th century brought his name to prominence again in the Middle East. Perhaps a better paragraph might read:

Saladin led some of the first successful forays to push back against the occupations by European Crusaders. Because of this fact and the (Western) perception that his behavior toward his Crusader opponents was "chivalrous," he has always had substantial renown in the West. Within the Middle East itself, however, due to the the short tenure of his dynasty and the passage of time his accomplishments were less well-known until the rise of Arab Nationalism in the late 19th century when the history of his efforts to oppose the Crusaders led to him being celebrated as an important historic figure.

3. KURDISH ISSUE - I have no knowledge about this, but wouldn't it be appropriate to add a line at the end of the first section saying something like. "Saladin was a Sunni Moslem raised in the Arab areas of what is now contemporary Iraq. However, many believe he was of Kurdish background and, as such, he has become an important figure to contemporary Kurds."

4. EARLY LIFE: second sentence. There are a number of references to "HE" which are very unclear given that the sentences talk about Saladin, his father AND his uncle. Should be clarified who is meant.

Also, "Saladin was now in Damascus" ??? OK - how did that happen. Is he a boy with his father or uncle? Or is he a young man on his own? 3. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.172.190.155 (talk) 01:46, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Missing information on family information

There seems to be information missing from the family information. No mention of parents etc. Even this talk page references uncles. There is also a mention of a sister at Wikibooks:History of Western Theatre: 17th Century to Now/Late German 18th. Cross linking significant personages would be an interesting contribution to the article. --79.168.11.181 (talk) 11:37, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

His father, uncle, brothers, sister, and one wife are mentioned throughout the text, although maybe they could all be mentioned together in the family section. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:07, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Saladin was a Turkish general

Your only resource is of Vladimir Minorsky (the man of 19th century), who claims Saladin was Kurdish, and Minorsky's resource comes from the Sharafname of Kurdish Historian Sharaf al-Din Bitlisi, which is a subjective resource. If you think his sayings are primary resource for you, then let me give you a contra claim of this century from the University of Calgary which says that Saladin was a Turkish general in an article.

Read it on the following page: http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/endmiddle/bluedot/crusades.html

Look at the text under the title of Third Crusade: "The 1170s and 1180s saw the rise of a new, united Islamic state with Egypt as its center, led by the talented Turkish general, Saladin. Provoked by Christian aggression in the Holy Land, Saladin attacked and reconquered much of the Christian territory in the east including Jerusalem. Jerusalem's fall provoked the launching of a Third Crusade (1189-92)."

And can you show me any resource telling Kurds take role in Crusades? All historical records mention Turks which were the leaders of the Islamic world at those times. Everyone knows that old Turkic people were of soldier origin. Also read the following article: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/villehardouin.asp - The Crusades occur between the Europeans and Turks. Also in old texts of British historians, they use the expression "Saladin the Turk". Check the following resources: http://www.archive.org/stream/chronicleofkings00dods#page/32/mode/2up http://www.archive.org/stream/historyofchrist00reev#page/356/mode/2up http://www.archive.org/stream/historyenglandf03turngoog#page/n412/mode/2up/search/Saladin%20Turks As a result, Saladin was a Turkish general who governs the army of Turks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.239.216.94 (talk) 18:33, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't know where you got the idea that the article only lists one source but there are at least three from what I see and if you look up a few section you can see that someone gave you 11 different sources. The other sources you gave, while reliable for their own subjects, all seem more interested int their own history rather than Saladin's. ~ Zirguezi 22:55, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

"Arabized Kurdish Muslim"

I removed the part about him being an Arabized Kurdish Muslim. It's a pretty strong statement to make and one that, in my opinion, requires more than a few sources. Especially considering the fact that the newer sources(Lyons & Jackson 1982) don't mention it at all. ~ Zirguezi 22:36, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Your newer resources (Lyons & Jackson) have to mention them? In the meantime, they are not reliable resources. 81.213.97.234 (talk) 23:54, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Where do they mention it? I can't find it. I removed the original part because somebody added it without citing a source. ~ Zirguezi 09:52, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Saladin was a Muslim commander

I recommend you to read the historical books of Arabic authors who lived in the same era with Saladin. They mention that Saladin could speak Turkish, Kurdish and Arabic. His brothers' names were of Turkish origin, and he served Zengid Dynasty who was of Turkic origin. Both Turkish and Kurdish troops would peacefully participate in Saladin's army as well as Arabic troops because Saladin was of both Turkish and Kurdish origins as well as being a Muslim. As most of Arabic resources haven't been translated into English yet, most of the Western historians of recent ages don't know the reality. In my opinion, you should remove the origin of Saladin from this article. He was just a Muslim commander who combined Turks, Arabs and Kurds under his authority. Anyway I know old Arabic and make a research about the origin of Saladin, but I couldn't find any resource which calls him as just a Kurdish. And your resources are just of made-up stories. In the meantime, why don't you have any resources from Arabic and Turkish authors? Your resources are just of Western scholars who create a new history so as to divide the Muslims by categorizing them as Kurds, Arabs and Turks. No need to mark a historical person with any ethnicity which is not certain. Saying "Saladin was Kurdish" is the same with the fact that "people derive from monkeys". That's just hypothetical. 78.170.103.103 (talk) 19:51, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. Are you saying that it's irrelevant what his ethnicity was, in which case I'd agree with you. In his time it was probably irrelevant what your ethnicity was as long as you we're muslim. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't list it(this being an encyclopedia). Or are you saying that "westerners" have called him Kurdish to, as you say to divide the Muslims. In which case I really don't see the link between calling him a Kurd and dividing muslims. We don't use Turkish/Arabic sources because they'd probably(but not necessarily) has a interest in calling him a Turk/Arab just as we don't use Kurdish sources beacuse they'd probably call him a Kurd out of self interest. ~ Zirguezi 08:58, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Anyway your resources are based on the history book of medieval Kurdish politician Sharaf Khan Bidlisi, whose book was translated into Russian and influenced the western authors with time by the means of Russian Kurdologs. If this is an encycplopedia, you shouldn't write anything uncertain here as far as you aren't sure of it. And this is a debated topic. You shouldn't ignore other resources, but you ignore (as it is understood from your sayings). So this article isn't objective! 78.170.100.152 (talk) 17:26, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. I think this article is written from a neutral point of view. If it's the sources you're doubting you can see that there are two more and if you look a few sections up you can see that someone lists 11 more sources. ~ Zirguezi 21:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I know that those resources are not objective as they are based on assumption. That's all to say.81.213.97.234 (talk) 23:46, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Saladin's ethnicity was Kurdish and it just stays there.

Ok for all you Kurds, Turks, Arabs out there...

First of all, I'm Kurdish and what I'm going to write down here is from my neutral viewpoint.

-As stated in legit sources, Saladin was of Kurdish origin. Nothing more, nothing less... But that didnt matter for Saladin, he saw himself as a human and a submissioner to God.(=Muslim)

-His dynasty was nothing Kurdish, only that it was ruled by Kurds, everyone under their rule spoke Arabic in general because that was the world language.

-His name is not Kurdish, but Arabic in an islamic sense.

-Saladin did not do anything for the Kurds exceptionally! He did things for everyone! He saved the middle-east and Northern Africa from the crusaders. Without him, the Kurds, Arabs, Turks and Persians would have suffered from an opression of the crusaders and we'd be possibly living another apartheid...

so for the Kurds out there, Saladin was not a leader of Kurds, he was leader of islam. Hope you'll understand that.

I hope for Turks that they will understand that not every great muslim leader were Turks... Last time I heard Turks discussing that Jesus was a Turk. You can't possibly tell that everything is of Turkish origin... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.23.151.229 (talk) 01:40, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree, these psuedo-Muslim 20th century nationalists are a real pain to converse with, and quite frankly, quite scary.

Saladin may have been Kurdish by blood, and Arabic in behaviour, but he was a willing Submitter of his own doing before all else. The history of Caliphates has nothing to do with the blood of the Muslims within no more than their piety. People here bickering over Saladin's identity tend to overlook, or even purposefully ignore, the only fully-willed identity Saladin have chosen of his own accords and done much to champion (hint: Muslim). Humuphile (talk) 01:34, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Gosh! It's also popular Kurdish nationalists started to claim for several famous leaders of the history (such as Saladin) as if they were of Kurdish origin. Anyway, Kurdish nationalists are successful in influencing the historical facts by the means of their western supporters who help them make plans on the Middle East. In this century, Kurdish nationalism has been emerged as a result of western conspiracy against Islamic world. Sure that some people don't like Arabs, Turks and Persians because they are powerful, religious and deep-rooted nations. And on the other hand, the plotters of the West play on nomadic Kurds as if they are their puppets and pawns. You insist on claiming Saladin as Kurdish in case you need a strong historical background for Kurds in the Middle East. You're not objective! 78.170.100.152 (talk) 17:52, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:STICK ~ Zirguezi 21:13, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Easy for you to say that we are trying to create a "historical background" while we already had one... It's easy for the dominant rulers to opress people and wipe their history and culture from the world. Trying to claim that there were no Kurds at all from in the beginning... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.23.151.229 (talk) 18:46, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I find it very sad with how this turned out... I'm just glad Saladin would never see us. If it's any worth though, as an Arab, I was taught, if memory serves, that Saladin was Kurdish in origin, and I believe almost all Arabs were taught so as well. However, it would be ludicrous to imply that the Ayyubid dynasty, or Saladin himself, were even remotely Kurdish in role or behaviour in either of the mentioned. The Sultan was, much like many people of the time, and the prophet himself actually, an Arabized man, he spoke Arabic, lead Arabs, and certainly didn't feel Kurdish in any sense that would override his Arabic ways.

We Arabs believe he is an Arabic man of Kurdish origin, but much (can't emphasize this), much more than that, a Muslim leader that every Muslim have the right to claim and feel at ease with before anything else, which is why I very much worry for you nationalists over here trying to defame an iconic Muslim with favoritism by blood (stigmatizing such blood while we're at it, and yes, I'm looking into all of you, Arabs, Turks, Kurds).

In essence, to keep this short, we credit our Sunni (he was a Sunni after all) Kurdish brothers for giving us such an incredible man and thank them for that (if you know Arabic, just look into what Arabic people think of Kurds; nothing but circle-jerking between the two), but contend that he was an Arab by Arabization.

I assume that was related to the identity, but, as an off-topic note, we Arabs also love our Turkish brothers as well, we've no issue with either and wish all Muslims to reconcile. Personally, I think Kurds are on a very stark path (Muslim collaborating with a non-Muslim against a Muslim is kufr, no matter what the problem maybe), but I can't really blame them, a nation with no representation is always thin and prone to fitna. Oh well, this isn't a forum and I hope all Muslims on this page stop bickering over matters of instigation. --Humuphile (talk) 07:38, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Saladin was of mixed ancestry

After all these discussions, I think we should edit his ethnicity as "Saladin was of mixed ancestry (Kurdish, Turkish and Arabic)". Or don't mention it anyway. Some unreliable resources claim he was of Kurdish, Arabic or Turkish origin (however they are all assumption), but who knows about his maternal origins? You call "he was of Kurdish origin" just by referring to his father (with unreliable resources) though you don't know his maternal origin (nobody mentions his mother). We mustn't stay behind the times by omitting his maternal origin. His brothers had Turkish names, and he also got married with a Turkic woman. He lived like an Arab, Turkish or Kurdish; anyhow, he was governed by Zengids (a Muslim dynasty of Turkic origin), he also mixed Turkish and Kurdish tribes under his rule. And the Old Europeans called him "Saladin the Turk". Arabs think that he was Arab. Turks think that he was Turk. And as a result of political aims, Russians claimed he was Kurd. Now Kurds also think he was Kurd. In fact, he was of mixed ancestry, so he gathered all Muslims under his authority. 81.213.97.234 (talk) 00:31, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

This is the same discussion we've been having all the while. First off if you want to change something: Find neutral sources. All these claims mean zero if you don't have neutral sources. We have more 11 that neutral sources, including six universities and Encyclopaedia of Islam saying he is a Kurd. Facts don't get any better sourced than that. Unfortunately you seem to be too biased towards you own opinion to see the facts, dismissing several scientific and reliable sources as "assumptions" and conspiracies. I'm not going to bother having a discussion any more unless you can come up with reliable and neutral sources. ~ Zirguezi 10:00, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 27 June 2012

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Dear Madam, Dear Sir,

Perhaps this image:

http://en.wikipedia.org/File:Jan_Lievens_Saladin_1.jpg

Provides a more appealing main image, since the painting is world famous and very old and portayes him in a Royal way. Could you change it? Thank you.

Best regards,

Meyer

Meyer Goldberg (talk) 11:37, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I guess we could add that to the Legacy paragraph. Is there a version without the canvas? ~ Zirguezi 13:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Do you mean without the frame? Personally, I prefer the current infobox image since it shows only one person. Ryan Vesey Review me! 14:12, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Agree. It's not good for the infobox. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Why is this image being added to a ton of articles, no matter how tangentially related? It`s okay for Saladin and Guy, maybe... Adam Bishop (talk) 20:01, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Not done: The ornate picture frame is extremely distracting and would add an unacceptable amount of visual clutter to the article. If someone were to upload a cropped version, your request could be revisited at that time (just change the "answered=" parameter at the top of this section to no). Rivertorch (talk) 04:51, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Ancestral error

The current text reads: "His family was of Arabized Kurdish background and ancestry, and had originated from the city of Dvin, in medieval Armenia."
According to Baha ad-Din ibn Shaddad, Saladin's father was: "an oriental and a muslim...being neither Arab nor Turk, but a Kurd of the Rawadi clan born at their village of Ajdanakan near Dvin in Armenia." Is there a reason the article says Dvin as I would have assumed that ad-Din would be the authoritative source. Wayne (talk) 09:16, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I feel some of the family background is interesting enough for inclusion. For instance...Saladin's grandfather Shadhi originally settled the family in Baghdad where a friend of his was governor (a greek slave named Bihruz from Dvin, which was then largly a Christian city, and who had been rewarded for his service to the Seljuks with the governorship). The friend made Najm ad-Din warden (governor) of Tikrit. The reason the family was banished from Tikrit in 1137 was partly because Bihruz didn't approve of Imad ad-Din Zengi being given refuge but primarily because Saladin's uncle Asad al-Din Shirkuh, committed an honour killing. Interestingly, Saladin was born the same night the family left Tikrit. That being said...this translation of Baha ad-Din ibn Shaddad (Stanley Lane-Poole 1926) may be in error because it gives Saladins birth as the Muslim year 532 (and states that there is no record of the month) which corresponds to 19 September 1137 to 8 September 1138, while this article says 25 December 1137. Wayne (talk) 10:06, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The 25 December date was added a few days ago, whereas previously we mentioned that the specific date was unknown. The IP who added it originally gave the source as "Al-Dhahabi Siyar a`lam al-nubala'v16.p 140", but then removed it right away, leaving only the date. Wikisourse seems to have only the first ten volumes of that work, and I'm not sure where else to find it, so I can't easily confirm it. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:22, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 23 July 2012

SELAHADDIN EYYUBI WAS A TURKISH ORIGIN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.177.243.41 (talk) 16:00, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Not done:See multiple discussions above. ~ Zirguezi 21:53, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

$50 in modern money?

Do we have already a world currency or... what the heck is "$50 in modern money"? --Againme (talk) 01:09, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

sufi aspect

the article is missing the point that saladin promoted sufism as stated here. Baboon43 (talk) 07:40, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Good point, go ahead and add the info if you have the sources. I'll try to add more on the domestic front of Saladin's reign soon. The article is largely dominated by the military sphere. --Al Ameer son (talk) 07:08, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Recognition and legacy section

Anybody mind if I restore the "Recognition and legacy" section back to its prose version, seen here? It's currently a bunch of facts, a lot of them trivial, cobbled together in a list form with numerous subsections. Albeit that the older version was not really satisfactory or comprehensive and needs a lot of work itself, I think it was better than what we currently have. Thoughts? --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:34, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Why was it removed? I support its restoration! Was their no recognition and legacy of such a great leader? Faizan (talk) 13:43, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I feel pain about how the legacy section has been treated

An unknown person and Al Ameer son have made serious MAJOR changes without any explanation except mentioning that it is a list of TIVIAL facts, i can not understand how is the Saladin Dirham Coin named after him is a TRIVIAL fact. This is also the same for all the other legacy facts that were removed by an unknown IP address then the deletion was approved but after very minor changes by Al Ameer son. Perhaps he or someone else should provide a more detailed explanation.--Ashashyou (talk) 14:42, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

You should have commented on the section above since we're talking about the same subject. Anyhow, my reasoning stands. The deleted section was mostly a list of short, random facts (this team and that building were named after Saladin, etc.), none of which were supported by sources. The solution should be to find a source that states and explains the general phenomenon of naming things after Saladin, which shouldn't be hard to do and would not be trivial. As for the dirham coin, this has nothing to do with recognition of Saladin or his legacy. This was an old coin minted during Saladin's reign. All major rulers, including caliphs, sultans, emirs and even powerful governors would issue coins bearing their name. It could be mentioned in a different and more appropriate section. There was no such thing as a "Saladin Dirham" after his rule ended. It's an artifact. However, there should be a subsection titled "Architectural legacy" where, with sources, we could write about the mosques, madrasas, forts and other buildings that Saladin ordered to be built. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:15, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Saladins origin

Saladin is a Muslim of Turco-Arabian origin. He's father was born in medieval Armenia. 95.114.75.176 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Cited sources say: "...A Muslim of Kurdish origin". Do you have any reliable source for your claim? Zheek (talk) 15:33, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

There are source that quote him as Turkic. But arabic people immigrated into the caucasus. they have partly been assimilated to populations of azeri turks and armenians. but they have also their own region called Dagestan in Russia. He was definitely Turco-arabian origin and not persian nor kurdish. only media made him popular of "Saladin the Kurd". He never claim such as thing. He was proud to been Turko-arabian. He was a great leader in the arabic world and his fightes was turkic people. Turko-arabians does exists and were not Kurds. If you more interested about Turko-arabians read here: Turco-Algerians, Turco-Tunisians, Libyan Turks, Turco-Egyptians, Syrian Turkoman etc. 95.114.75.176 (talk) 15:56, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Provide your sources on here. If they are reliable, academic, and experts' work. We can add them. Also his Kurdish origin is well-sourced and accepted by the other editors, so it will remain on the article. If you have reliable sources about his "Turko-Arabian" origin, mention them on this section. Books, articles, papers, encyclopedias, and etc. Other editors will review and verify them. Zheek (talk) 16:13, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, others identify him as Kurdish, but he never feels Kurdish. It is well-sourced that medieval kurdish personalities described him as traitor. Probably because he is Turco-arabian origin. So if this article is objective like it claims why there are no remarks that there are some reliable supposition that he is Turkish. But because of the immigration of arabian people into caucasus he might most probable to be Turco-arabian. 95.114.75.176 (talk) 16:44, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

"...but he never feels Kurdish."?? Sounds like opinion.

Saladin, Malcolm Cameron Lyons, D. E. P. Jackson, p 29;"The Kurds, al-Mashtub and Khusrau, were junior to them and could be persuaded to support their fellow Kurd, Saladin...".
The Crusades - Islamic Perspectives, Carole Hillenbrand, p185;"It must be remembered in this context that Saladin came of Kurdish, not of Syrian or Palestinian stock...".
Saladin, David Nicolle, p13;"Despite Saladin's Kurdish origins, Turks dominated the new army.
Sandcastles: The Arabs in Search of the Modern World, Milton Viorst, p122;"Saladin, a Kurd, was an outsider too".
The Cambridge Illustrated Atlas of Warfare: The Middle Ages, 768-1487, Nicholas Hooper and Matthew Bennett, p96;"Saladin was a Kurd who served his military apprenticeship under his uncle Shirkuh in Egypt during the 1160s fighting for the Muslim leader Nur al-Din.". --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:44, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

95.114.75.176, I asked about your sources not your personal opinions. A source or some sources to prove your opinion. You mentioned Arabs, but also Turkic people migrated from Central Asia and East Asia to Middle East, Caucasus, and Anatolia. So it's not reasonable enough to reject his Kurdish origin. His origin is cited by sources from reliable and expert scholars. You need such sources. If you have, write them on here. Zheek (talk) 19:48, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. But you have overlooked one fact. The term Kurd was also used for arabian and Iranicized nomads.

The term seems to refer to variety of pastoral nomadism and possibly a set of political units, rather than a linguistic group".

But where is the proof that he was indo-european speaker (meant kurdish or persian)?

And until the 20th Century the Kurdish nationalism postulates a pan-kurdic identity it is a dismantling myth that the term kurds in history described kurdish people. Not even the Turks who ruled hundred of years knew that such as folk exist.

Those who propagate this myth should reply what the proof is that he feel kurdish? It incredible how you randomly describe Iranicized nomads (Azerbaijanis) and Arabian-Nomads (Turco-Arabians) with a pan-kurdish term. In this they proceeded so far as to invent relics of the "old Kurdish" religion to Zardusht with the intention to corruption of historical facts. 95.114.75.176 (talk) 20:04, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

We don't ignore RS-based content but we reject unsourced, original researches, and fringe content. For example, If he was Turk and there is no source about his Kurdish origin, we can't add Kurdish origin and if someone add it, we should remove it. So if you think he was Arab/Turk/Turko-Arab, where are your sources? If you have reliable sources, you can mention them. Even if they say Saladin was African/Indian/Russian/German/Persian/Japanese/Chinese/... (for example, see Tariq ibn Ziyad (multiple sources about different views of his origin)). It's a basic rule in Misplaced Pages. Zheek (talk) 21:25, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Saladin's Origin: important note. 16/05/2013

In my opinion it is in the best interest to write there are several theories written by different Scholars. It is not my intention to change his origin but to clarify there are different theories developed by different Scholars.

People have the right to know there are different theories, if they are interested in his origins they can look up the different theories and conclude for themselves! BUT I do not think it is our right to push a certain theory in their direction. That's not the way to teach and learn things.

Therefore people should not edit it any longer to change it in 1 specific theory (arab, kurdish,..) but to add only more sources to a certain theory if possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alisan.Cavdarli (talk • contribs) 21:02, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

ethnicity

saladin was a kurd there's multiple sources that say so..im not sure why this article doesnt make it clear. Baboon43 (talk) 21:54, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I restored the original version where the article does it make clear that he's an ethnic Kurd. Not that his ethnicity really mattered. He was actually quite immersed in the Arabic culture and language from his childhood in Damascus and through his political career. His tribe had also been partially assimilated into the Arabic-speaking world prior to Saladin's era and the next Ayyubid generation (his sons and nephews) was thoroughly self-Arabized. See the Ayyubid dynasty#Religion and ethnicity for more on this. It should also be noted that he likely spoke Turkish (I'll add the source.) Unfortunately, while Saladin's ethnicity didn't really matter much during his lifetime, this talk page is almost completely made up of an ethnic nationalist tug-of-war over Saladin's origins. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:32, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

thanks. its normal that there would be a tug of war since he was a popular figure but its widely known he was a kurd and this article should display that. & yes i agree his arab culture and turkish tongue should also be noted. one of the most well known conspiracy theories is that there was a lack of european support at Sykes–Picot Agreement for a kurdistan because saladin came from kurdish background. im guessing europeans resented the fact that saladins army had defeated them. Baboon43 (talk) 06:39, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Etnicity Discussion

His etnicity is discussed by many scholars !

I added sources concluding he was from Arab origins or Turkic Origins. You have not the right to erase this and follow your own theory based on different sources.

I am adding sources for different theories, I am not following 1 theory. and people who consult Misplaced Pages have the right to know this is never been proven by either sides: there are sources concluding him being Kurdish but also Turkic and Arab.

So my conclusion is that you cannot follow 1 specific theory, but you can however add more sources that add more credibility to a certain theory.

DO NOT REVERSE ALL THE TIME or this case will have to be moderated ! and I am sure no'one will benefit from that.

Alisan

your turk/arab origin proposition is undue weight. saladin was a kurd so dont revert there is several sources indicating that you can go google them. Baboon43 (talk) 08:16, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

First of all, most sources say he is Kurdish. A simple google search will also confirm this. You added 5 sources supporting that he we Turkish. The first source, from William L. Leonard is from the 50s or 60s if I recall correctly. It is old. I can't see the one from "Calgary University in Canada", and I would appreciate it if you added a link. These are the only two non-Turkish sources. The other sources are from Turks. Therefore they should be ignored, the same way we ignore sources which are from Kurds. And there's only one source supporting him being an Arab. If you want to, I could also list the dozens of dozens of sources saying he's Kurdish. In other words, I believe we should respect the policy of Misplaced Pages's when it comes to fringe sources, and undo weight. --Tirvane (talk) 12:55, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

____________

You got to be joking?? The first Sources used to point out Saladin as a Kurd are Kurdish sources. If we follow your "method" these should also be ignored. Therefore there are only 2 sources vs 3 sources that point out he is of Turkish origins. You can't call the "undo weight" because there is no extra weight! it's not simply extra info that's not necessary to understand Saladin, the theories are fundamental and therefore they can't be extra weight to the article.

Not to mention your "dozens" of articles concluding him being a Kurd are mostly written by Kurdish Nationalists too, so according to your own "method" they should be ignored.

These sources state that he is of Turkish origin:

The Crusades. Calgary University in Canada. (link: http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/endmiddle/bluedot/crusades.html ) Dr. Mehmet Sılay, "Ortadoğu Barışının Mimarı Selahaddin Eyyubi", İstanbul, 2009. William Leonard Langer, "A survey of European civilization", dl 1, p. 217, 1947. (( Prof. Dr. Mehmet Ögel, "Türk Milli Bütünlüğü İçerisinde Anadolu" )) as you don't consider these as reliable sources I used (()) (( Ali Tayyar Önder, "Türkiye'nin Etnik Yapısı: Halkımızın Etnik Kökenleri ve Gerçekler", Ankara, 2006 )) as you don't consider these as reliable sources I used (())

Alisan —Preceding undated comment added 19:58, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

There are three sources used in this article. All three sources are non-Kurdish. The first source is from Minorsky, quoting a historian that lived right after Saladin's death. He's our most relevant source, obviously. All other sources are much older than his claims. Keep in mind people would have caught him in his 'fraud' when he said Saladin was Kurdish. The Ayyubids existed long before and long after Ibn Khallikan. Him being Kurdish is irrelevant. Nationalism was not a problem during those times. It was unheard of. And you're the one using sources with a bias, not me. Half of your sources are Turkish.

Since you don't believe me when I say most sources state him being Kurdish, let me add a few. And then there's google. According to you google show the view of Kurdish nationalists. This is simply not true. Please do a search for yourself.

http://asianhistory.about.com/od/profilesofasianleaders/p/Saladin-Biography-Hero-of-Islam.htm http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/people/saladin.html http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/saladin.htm http://www.history.com/topics/saladin http://www.biographybase.com/biography/Saladin.html http://historymedren.about.com/od/swho/p/saladin.htm http://www.enotes.com/saladin-essays/saladin http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/this-day-in-jewish-history/this-day-in-jewish-history-saladin-captures-jerusalem-from-the-crusaders-1.467797 http://www.spectator.co.uk/books/7436943/saladin-hero-or-infidel/ http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/197003/saladin-story.of.a.hero.htm http://i-cias.com/e.o/saladin.htm

These are only some of the results from google. I can go on and on.

All major encyclopedias/"libraries" say he's Kurdish, for example:

Encyclopedia of World Biography, http://www.bookrags.com/biography/saladin/

Encyclopedia Britannica, http://global.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/518809/Saladin

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Saladin.html

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/ayyubids

And when it comes to books, literally every one of them say he's Kurdish. The only non-Turkish book saying he is Turkish is a book from the 60s. And that book is about European history. All books that focus on the Ayyubids and/or Saladin say he is Kurdish. A few examples;

Steed, Brian L., Piercing the Fog of War: Recognizing Change on the Battlefield, (Zenith Press, 2009), 176;"Saladin was a Kurd from Tikrit.".

http://books.google.no/books?id=kRF1F3wK26YC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=saladin+kurdish&source=bl&ots=5b6TwiDGMU&sig=P3YudSvQl22bwh-5-Srz6StGM7E&hl=no&sa=X&ei=A5CWUYbYIqbx4QSv1oGADw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=saladin%20kurdish&f=false

http://books.google.no/books?id=JfXl5kvabhoC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=saladin+kurdish&source=bl&ots=KQp2igvvEQ&sig=RlL9b9cm3ZDoa_1LuJtw9sf_ceM&hl=no&sa=X&ei=EJCWUfjTFeqI4ATx4YDgDQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=saladin%20kurdish&f=false

http://books.google.no/books?id=sl4PIeyWriUC&pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=saladin+kurdish&source=bl&ots=bj3AN_Wx6f&sig=2atQ6fR-AAV1H0bjv56yByQBgWE&hl=no&sa=X&ei=OZCWUfbHLcai4gT5tICwAg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=saladin%20kurdish&f=false

http://www.amazon.com/Book-Saladin-Novel-Tariq-Ali/dp/1859842313

http://books.google.no/books?id=OZbyz_Hr-eIC&pg=PA600&lpg=PA600&dq=encyclopedia+islam+saladin&source=bl&ots=eWosCCpTRa&sig=o0RWzgZJglkg5rbq4XDvAmLyUZg&hl=no&sa=X&ei=bpGWUf_VE6eN4ATwk4HgCw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=encyclopedia%20islam%20saladin&f=false

http://books.google.no/books/about/Saladin.html?id=9UYUAQAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y

http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews/fr/WarriorsGod.htm

R. Stephen Humphreys in his book From Saladin to the Mongols: The Ayyubids of Damascus.

Do you want me to continue? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tirvane (talk • contribs) 20:32, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm like, 99% sure he was Kurdish. If an actual reliable source can be found claiming he was anything else, then it can be presented as a minority view: "X, Y and Z hold the view that Saladin was of Turkish/Arab origins, however." That is, if a reliable source can be found. But this is the first time I've heard anybody claim he wasn't Kurdish. I'm not an expert, I'm just saying I've never heard this before. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:13, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

First of all the historian that Minorsky quotes is not credible since that historian is Kurdish himself. Therefore that source can't be taken in consideration because Saladin was a great man and it would add prestige to Kurds from that time to say Saladin was from Kurdish origins, you understand?

I Also used 3 sources to that show he was Turkish, and 1 that shows he was from arab origin. The number of sources do not matter, because then it is on par (kurdish vs turkish theory)

(actually not on par because Minorsky doesn't count.)

Secondly you can't compare encyclopedia's to books/theories specifically about Saladin, since Encyclopedia's don't go in details. note that Misplaced Pages Encyclopedia is not the same as an encyclopedia in book form.

(78.20.6.236 (talk) 10:55, 18 May 2013 (UTC))

Minorsky indeed refers to a Kurdish Historian, making it a unreliable source.

R.Stephen Humphreys is also an unreliable source because there is almost no information!

The only source we actually can take into consideration is William Leonard Langer, he was the chair of the history department at Harvard University. a man who is known.

If the Encyclopedia on World Biography should be counted a source, you need to show which sources they used. AND most important: which pages are used from that Encyclopedia because a site reference here is not enough!

---(Alisan.Cavdarli (talk) 11:09, 18 May 2013 (UTC))

So because the historian is himself Kurdish...he isn't a reliable source? That's one of the most blatantly racist things I've ever seen on a talk page. You're both new, so I will try to avoid biting the noobs and simply recommend that you both review Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources - Alisan and the IP address above. Please don't try to edit the page until you have acknowledged that you both reviewed the page on identifying them and can then come back here and make actual policy-based arguments for what you're claiming. I don't particularly care about the subject either way (no disrespect to Saladin, my interests just lie elsewhere) but if this sort of complete disregard for site policies and guidelines continues, then this discussion will likely be brought higher up and if you aren't aware of site policies and guidelines, then your viewpoints will likely be discounted. MezzoMezzo (talk) 12:07, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

http://books.google.com/books?id=tN4RAAAAYAAJ&dq=linklights%20subject%3A%22History%22&pg=PA165#v=onepage&q&f=false

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