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Christianity: Witnesses Start‑class High‑importance

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Crime and Criminal Biography Start‑class Low‑importance

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POV

The lack of information on how Witness articles don't address protecting children within the church itself seems incomplete - it seems misleading because the Wiki article tends to acknowledge there's a problem, but the Witness articles alluded to only bolster a false sense of security within the church (from what I recall reading them). The Witness articles focus on protecting children from non-Witnesses, but don't address the potential dangers from within the church.

This is incorrect, please read them, it is regarding anyone you assume it is not talking about everyone when it is--24.6.27.205 (talk · contribs)

Additionally, the Wiki article does not detail the strange procedure that Witness church leaders are told to use to report such abuse - anonymously, from a pay phone - which prevents law enforcement from taking meaningful action (this from reports from former church leaders). Voideater (talk) 01:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The instructions are to report to the authorities which is different per location. This is done so they can do their job. Inferring that they are committing a crime of impeding an investigation is wrong, which you are saying "which prevents law enforcement from taking meaningful action" is incorrect.--24.6.27.205 (talk · contribs)

The addition of "cases of abuse" seems very questionable. If the info is that important it should be part of the article, like the example of "Erica Rodriguez". (see info on external links) However, the point that child abuse does happen is illustrated in the article itself. It just seems this is a section that is open for attacking a religion. Can we have a section below that presents the other side? Namely "Cases of Trust?" The point being- is that the article itself makes clear the issues involved, beyond that seems like an agenda to slander a religion that has had some of it 7 million members involved in abuse. Again this is not a "let's hide it" but about presenting a balanced presentation that is fit for an encyclopedia and not for a personal vindictive. Johanneum 14:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

this is true as the JW themselves have talked about the issues and have been clear that no one is immune but action should be taken when evidence is presented.--24.6.27.205 (talk · contribs)

This section does not seem questionable. These cases are points that support the article. It is neither attacking the religion nor is it excessive. There is no agenda to slander the religion by providing facts to support the article. Although the cases are important, only one or two examples are needed to enrich the article and provide enough information to be clear and concise in conveying information about the topic. Usually a topic requires several bulleted list items in order to substantiate the topic of the article. There should be no attempt to either 'white-wash' or 'muddy' the information to sway readers to one point of view or another. Protector of the Truth 14:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

"These cases are points to support the article"....??? Does the article need one sided points to support it? The article can stand for itself! Again the "Cases of Abuse" is clearly one sided, and not necessary to presenting an article which already clearly defines the issues involved. 22:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Points to support the article are neither one sided or two sided, but just facts to support the article's existence. The article requires proof that there is a need for such and cases are just that, proof that the article should exist. Cases are not one sided but merely points for justifying that the article should remain and not deleted.Protector of the Truth 22:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe you are mistaken. The issue is not whether abuse happens (it does!) but how it is handled. Do these cases highlight how it is handled? The article itself shows that abuse happens! Why do you need proof to support proof? The proof is already in the article! Besides what is in excess of the main article can be viewed as supporting one's own agenda. Johanneum 23:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The cases are just facts that substantiate the article and provide the reader with a chronology of incidents in recent history and a source to obtain more information. There is no supporting of one's own agenda. Listing eight bulleted points is in no way excessive or slanderous or attacking the religion. Highlighting incidents within the previous 12 months is hardly excessive or one sided.Protector of the Truth 23:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Once again the article stands on its own. Which of these external links supports an article on HOW abuse is handled? Your additions show that it does happen, that is not what this page is about but how they are handled.

Would not several recent cases in the news provide a reader with more details on how those cases were handled? Aside from what is included in the introduction of the article. As a reader I would like to have the ability to search from several other cases and learn about what happened, how they were handled or what was done. If there were a dozen or more cases listed, I would opt for a summary statement and links to external sources, but with eight happening in the previous 14 months, I just don't see that as anything other than providing more information for the reader. I would benefit from reading about recent events pertaining to the article from other news sources. Do you feel that the title of the news reports are offensive or slanderous to the article or religion? Does their title detract from the article or cast it in an unfavorable light? I'm not sure how wording can be edited in order to present such a topic favorably.Protector of the Truth 23:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

This is true, it happens and the JW and long as people still get sick it will continue to happen. The only important point is what happened and how was it handled--24.6.27.205 (talk · contribs)

This is an encyclopedia and not a News column, we need to make sure it has NPOV Encyclopedic content. It seems dishonest to say as you did "Other religious denomiations are also linked to this category" and then to link the Catholic church! There were no such links before! Johanneum 23:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I am working on building links to more religious denominations as they relate to Child Sexual Abuse. I find it attacking that you would bring it up as 'dishonest' since I am beginning this work as I believe there is much work to do in order to build good cross references to similar topics. Instead of wasting time attacking me, build bridges of collaboration by providing more detailed information on articles such as these and others that may incite your interest. And did you know that encyclopedias commonly point to reference sources such as new outlets. Check Encyclopedia Britannica and Microsoft Encarta. Protector of the Truth 02:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

What is the issue with the link? Every church has to deal with this issue. The Catholic church had an issue will several churches involved in cover ups etc, but they have changed many of their policies. Like said before, it's about what happened, and how it was handled or policies/doctrines that is being discussed. The links do not imply they handled it the same way just that they all face the same issues.--24.6.27.205 (talk · contribs)

It was not necessarily meant to be an attack but an expose of what you stated, which was not true. Note the words "it seems dishonest" I stand for Truth and do protect it.Johanneum 04:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

?

I would propose merging this with Jehovah's Witnesses sex abuse scandal, but I have two problems.

• 1: I don't know how to merge articles or I forgot how.
• 2: The articles seem almost identical.

--T. Anthony 08:44, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

That's weird. I searched for "Jehovah's Witnesses sex abuse" and didn't get any results, so I created this article. Anyway, I think Jehovah's Witnesses and child sex abuse should be the final article, since it can cover JWs policy on child abuse and history too, without limiting to the current scandal. I copied the info deleted from the Opposition to Jehovah's Witnesses article, so I think the Jehovah's Witnesses sex abuse scandal can just be VfDed. Yeah? --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 02:38, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Sure thing. I'll see if there was any useful information from it not covered here. I didn't think there was, but if there was maybe I'll see where I can fit it in. Assuming you didn't already do that. I think the information was mostly the same, just structured a little different.--T. Anthony 03:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I can't find the other article anymore, it seems to just redirect to this one. I am going to remove the "Discuss Merge" template from page. Evident 14:05, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Speed of Reporting Sex Abuse to Civil Authorities

I thought it was important to add the practical consideration of how important it is to quickly report the crime to civil authorities. DNA collection is much more likely to add weight to a prosecutor's case if collected quickly after the crime took place. I referenced the Presidential DNA plan regarding Forensics collection as support for the statement that speed in reporting is critical to successful use of DNA evidence in prosecution. Evident 15:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

someone needs to get a transcpript from the dateline episode on this.

They asked the society to point to a cases where they society turned over pedphile cases to the authorities. The society handed them only two examples both were about a child being molested by someone on the outside of the organization. If my memory did not fail me.--Greyfox 03:03, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

You will need to get this info from the police as I believe their policy is not to release this information since the police already handle this and it's their responsibility. They believe to release this goes beyond their authority of the congregation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.27.205 (talk) 15:19, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Religioustolerance.org

This article uses the religioustolerance.org website as either a reference or a link. Please see the discussion on Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and Misplaced Pages:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org as to whether Misplaced Pages should cite the religioustolerance.org website, jguk 14:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Not neutral

This page has obviously been edited by someone sympathetic to JW's, making a general judgement statement favorable to Jehovah's Witnesses in the first paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulshrug (talk • contribs) 05:13, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

• Absolutely! Working on it. One thing is to outline their child abuse policy, another to explain the factual problem of pedophilia missmanagement within their ranks. Significant work needs to be done with including valid references. BatteryIncluded (talk) 17:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

• • I'm concerned that User:ProofreaderXL, a single-purpose account has been trying to add pro-JW POV to this article (through , , . I will revert these changes. nneonneo 22:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

• The article has been steady for 2 months now. I wonder if we can remove the "neutrality in dispute" tag. BatteryIncluded (talk) 23:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Citations needed

This article contains many statements in need of source verification. The sensitivity of this subject demands careful presentation and verification.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 18:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

'Three Year Rule'

This entire section of the article seems to misrepresent the Watchtower Society's position. There is no mention of any 'three year rule' in the quoted sources, which instead contrast an arbitrary recent period, with an incident that might have happened "many years ago". Section contains no reliable source for any 'three year rule' in the manner implied.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:35, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I always wanted to delete that section. BatteryIncluded (talk) 14:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Title change

The title Jehovah's Witnesses and child sex abuse is inappropriate for the topic discussed in the article. The article does not focus on any particular cases of child sex abuse, but deals mostly with how witnesses handle child sex abuse cases. I intend a change in the title to Jehovah's Witnesses and handling of child sex abuse if no other opinions here. --  Logical Thinker  15:43, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

The existing title sufficiently indicates that the subject matter is about Jehovah's Witnesses and child sex abuse, without claiming to be an article about specific cases. This is in notable contrast to the articles Catholic sex abuse cases and Scouting sex abuse cases. It would be better to retain the current title than to change to an even wordier title.--Jeffro77 (talk) 16:03, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with User:Jeffro77. The title is fine the way it is, and the extra words would be superfluous.Vyselink (talk) 05:55, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Don't change. The title is fine, accurate and succinct. Changing will do little to improve it. Malick78 (talk) 21:46, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I think we can forget about this now as Logicalthinker was a sockpuppet. Unless anyone else has any valid reason why this articles name should be changed? Vyselink (talk) 19:44, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not aware that any formal move request was ever started, so I think no further action is required.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:23, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

The current article name is not according to WP:AND: «Titles containing "and" are often red flags that the article has neutrality problems or is engaging in original research: avoid the use of "and" in ways that appear biased. For example, use Islamic terrorism, not "Islam and terrorism"; however, "Media's coupling of Islam and terrorism" may be acceptable. Avoid the use of "and" to combine concepts that are not commonly combined in reliable sources.» Grrahnbahr (talk) 22:17, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

What would you suggest? Maybe Jehovah's Witnesses' reporting of sex abuse?--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:08, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe Jehova's Witnesses' view of child sex abuse or Jehovah's Witnesses' handling of child sex abuse? Jehovah's Witnesses' reporting of sex abuse is better than the current one, but I don't think it is fully explaining the article. Grrahnbahr (talk) 16:06, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Their view of abuse is not the issue. Handling would be more relevant.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:17, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

The suggestion of Jehova's Witnesses' view of child sex abuse was based on the fact that large portions of the article was contributed to JWs view. Their policies could also be considered as their view. I support a change to Jehovah's Witnesses' handling of child sex abuse, as it is describing for the article.

The article could also need a major cleanup, considered large portions of the article is unreferenced, or is referenced only with sources considered unavailable or unreliable. Grrahnbahr (talk) 19:04, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Their policies are not really the same as their view. The article deals with their policies about handling abuse and controversy surrounding those policies as reported in mainstream media. No one has ever suggested that JWs view child abuse as acceptable.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:39, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Past offenders

The article has recently been edited to make it seem as though 2010 initiated a change in Jehovah's Witnesses policy regarding whether a past "child sex abuse" offender could eventually qualify for congregation appointment. The new edit was/is wrong for at least two reasons:
1. JWs use the term "child sex abuse" to include a remarkably broad range of sins, including showing pornography to an underage person of either sex (see Shepherding page 61, quoted below). Thus, an uncle who shows a Playboy to his 17-year-old nephew may be viewed by JWs as "reprehensible" (unworthy of congregational appointment) and guilty of "serious sin" (liable for formal reproof or disfellowshipping), but it also seems likely that an uncle who was once and long-ago guilty of this particular form of "abuse" might eventually be able to regain his good name and congregation privileges among JWs in a manner that a molester or rapist never could.
2. The supposedly "new" 2010 reference uses language nearly identical to that used by the JW policy for a decade or more, including as quoted by the BBC in 2002. Over the years, the statements have consistently insisted that "many years" (elsewhere explicitly stated as "more than twenty years") must have passed since any form of "abuse" (including consensual sex between two teenagers who later marry). That was the case before 2002, was explicitly stated in 2002, and was simply repeated in 2010.
2002. Over the signature of "J. R. Brown, Jehovah's Witnesses Office of Public Information", a May 9, 2002 fax to BBC Panorama Reporter Betsan Powys was quoted as stating, * "In a few instances, individuals guilty of an act of child abuse have been appointed to positions within the congregation if their conduct has been otherwise exemplary for decades. All of the circumstances would need to be considered carefully. Suppose, for example, that a long time ago a 16-year-old boy had sexual relations with a consenting 15-year-old girl. Depending upon the U.S. jurisdiction where he lived when this happened, elders may have been required to report this as an incident of child abuse. Let us say that 20 years have passed. The child abuse reporting law may have changed; the man may have even married the girl! Both have been living exemplary lives and they are respected. In such a rare case, the man could possibly be appointed to a responsible position within the congregation. ...at least twenty years must have passed before an individual who committed an act of child abuse could even be considered for appointment to a responsible position in the congregation, if ever." (This BBC-quoted language was identical or nearly identical to that which was on the JW-Media.org website from 2002 to 2010.)
2010. While there was no change to the policy in 2010, JWs' public statement in 2010 was edited slightly to: * "In a few instances, individuals guilty of an act of child abuse have been appointed to positions within the congregation if their conduct has been otherwise exemplary for decades. All the factors are considered carefully. Suppose, for example, that a long time ago an 18-year-old male had sexual relations with a 15-year-old girl who was a willing participant. Depending upon the U.S. jurisdiction where he lived when this happened, elders may have been required to report this as an incident of child abuse. Let us say that 20 years have passed. He has been living an exemplary life and he is respected. In such a case, the man could possibly be appointed to a responsible position within the congregation." – JW-Media.org, Retrieved 2011-02-22
Quotes from the JW manual for congregation elders (that is, Shepherding the Flock, Watch Tower, 2010), and three relevant questions:
1. How do Jehovah's Witnesses explicitly define "child sex abuse" in Shepherding?

• Page 61: "Child sex abuse: This would include fondling of breasts, an explicitly immoral proposal, showing pornography to a child, voyeurism, indecent exposure, and so forth."
  

2. Again, the term "child sex abuse" explicitly includes a wide array of sin, and the term does not necessarily mean molestation or rape. What does Shepherding say about appointing a man once and "many years" ago guilty of any form of "child abuse"?

• Page 38, "the nature of the sin may reflect greatly on his qualifications to serve. For example, the sin may involve past child abuse , and this would likely disqualify him for many years."
  

3. Does Shepherding say anything about a man who had ever at any time in the past been involved with child sexual molestation? Yes...

• "The body of elders may recommend a brother as an elder or a ministerial servant... In every case, the elders must ask the following questions: "Is there anything from your past...that disqualifies you...? ...Have you ever been involved at any time in the past with child sexual molestation?" If he answers yes to any of these questions, do not announce the appointment. Return the...appointment letter to the branch office, and provide a complete explanation why the appointment should be annulled." (page 34-35).
  

Notice that the policy does not allow any consideration for the passage of decades when the answer is "yes to any of these questions ". In such a case, the unused appointment letter is not filed with the congregation records but is returned to the branch and "annulled" with an explanation. JWs have no other arrangement in place for any person who was ever "involved at any time in the past with child sexual molestation".
That new paragraph has been reverted. --AuthorityTam (talk) 22:26, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

The premise for your argument is flawed. The article correctly stated that their position was "clarified" in 2010, and there is no indication that it was a "new" position at all. Though you quote this above as "new", no one claimed it was a new policy. It is unclear why you are attempting to remove sourced information that provides additional clarification about the policy. Additionally, your selective interpretation about which 'kinds' of actions 'might' be included in "past child abuse" for the purposes of determining appointment after "many years" is entirely speculative. Rather than trying to hide details that you imagine contradict other details, simply present both points.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:42, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

If an appointed member is only learned "many years later" to have committed abuse, that would obviously not be directly related to any questions asked of the member at the time of their appointment. Such abuse could have happened either after they were appointed, or they could have lied at the time. The statement about questioning new appointees therefore does not at all 'annul' the position of potentially retaining appointments after a sin "many years" ago, nor the clarification thereof.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:47, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

There is no evidence that the example given in the JW press release is the only situation where an appointment to a position of responsibility would be retained after learning of 'abuse' committed "many years" ago, nor is it employed as an example in the elders' guidebook.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

It's occurred to me that your objection may be partially based on a distorted understanding of the word 'clarify'. When JW publications 'clarify' a doctrine, it very frequently constitutes a significant change at the fundamental level to introduce an entirely new element of belief. However, as used here, 'clarify' carries the normal meaning of providing additional information about an existing policy.--Jeffro77 (talk) 22:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Renamed

I have renamed the subsection to Positions of responsibility because it relates entirely to positions of responsibility, including procedure to avoid appointing abusers and handling of whether a past offender may retain such positions if past offences are brought to light.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:06, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Sex offender database

The section introduces a WTS quote with We do not apologize for keeping such records here in the United States. However, the section provides no context for why there is any need to apologize (this is not a statement that I do not understand the context, but that the reader is left begging the question). Either the context for such an apology should be provided, or it should be trimmed from the quote. If the latter, I would suggest replacing:

• Watchtower Society representative J. R. Brown stated in May 2002: We do not apologize for keeping such records here in the United States. Apart from being legally needed..."

with:

• A spokesperson for the Watchtower Society stated in May 2002, "Apart from being legally needed ..."

(Wherein it could also be changed from a blockquote to an inline quote.) --Jeffro77 (talk) 12:55, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

As no one has commented in over a week, I have made the change.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:14, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Asking

Hi,

1) Are there any particular proves about child sex abuse from JW´s in other countries, outside of the USA? (which is exceptionally high-criminal and wicked country, tough).

2) Are all accusations against JW only to elders, or are any cases with normal JW members as well? Proves?

3) How can we be sure that people are not only bribed or just only want to cash in? Chantage with court accusations is usually good way to make same money, You know. Are any proves?

4) What about criminal behaviour like rape from JW´s?

5) Are any cases with JW about other types of violence, robberies, murders, public or private assets vandalism, assaults on other people, etc.? Are there such statistics about inclusion these appearances through JW´s? And (of course, things like premarital sex, pregnancy abortion, marriage divorce, homosexuality, lying, etc. which are not illegal by most of states laws, ... Biblical law is diff.)

6) As I red, all cases of child sex abusing was held long ago, only in the USA, and nothing new nowadays. Prosecuted people have been disfellowshipped and handed over to human law justice and imprisoned. Just regular order of events. But, as a result, (rare cases + perhaps fabricated charges), some sort of people have been slandered, actually. ... as whole society (like racism and discrimination).

7) By the way. Nothing new indeed. In all society´s groups are good ones and bad ones.

8) JW´s publications like "Learn from Great Teacher", "Shepherd Flock of God", "Organized to do Jehovah´s Will", some other news clearly states against these phenomenons.

9) Thanks for infos.

--89.176.227.251 (talk) 15:05, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

You don't seem to be suggesting a change to the article. Misplaced Pages is not a forum.--Jeffro77 (talk) 21:22, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Edits made to 'Two witnesses'

I changed the occurences of the word 'eyewitess' to 'witness' because (1) the organization always uses the term 'two witnesses', never 'two eyewitnesses', and (2) forensic evidence, which is accepted, is not an 'eye' witness per se.

I also changed the statement that "As of 2002, statements by two victims of separate incidents by the same perpetrator may be deemed sufficient to take action and impose internal sanctions" to refer to 1991 instead of 2002, as the cited "Pay Attention" book was published in 1991, not 2002. StandFirm-JW (talk) 00:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

I've changed it back to 'eyewitness' because the subject context lends ambiguity to the word 'witness' as 'members of the religion' or 'those who testify'. It is better to use a different word than to possibly imply that 2 JWs are required to attest to something.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:11, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

That's true. I didn't even think of that. StandFirm-JW (talk) 19:02, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment: I think the term you guys are looking for is material witness. Though an eye-witness is a material witness all material witnesses do not take the form of an eye-witness.-- Marvin Shilmer (talk) 12:42, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I've re-worded, with 'material witness' as the first instance in the paragraph, and made the rest of the tone a bit less wooden. I think the new wording should sufficiently compensate for the ambiguity of the term 'witness'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:59, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I like the new wording. StandFirm-JW (talk) 20:02, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Making the Wording More Neutral

Near the start of the article we have this sentence:

"as long as the therapy does not conflict with their religious doctrine."

It strikes Teary as a bit heavy handed on the diction, as "doctrine" these days seems to carry slightly negative connotations (similar to the words "big corporation"). A more neutral wording would be:

"as long as the therapy does not conflict with their religious views."

It would also be more proper because "views" is the wording used in the actual references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teary Oberon (talk • contribs) 18:12, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

No problem with changing to 'views'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 21:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Links...

I am not very happy with the current external links section at the end, particularly the division between the "Critical" and "News" references.

If you'll notice, both of the "Critical" links and both of the "News" links take their information from same man: Bill Bowen! If the first two sites and articles involving Bill Bowen are considered "Critical," then why make the arbitrary division between them and the "News" links when the news links use the same source of information as the "Critical" links? I suggest either finding more neutral, non-Bowen related news articles, or just getting rid of the "News" category as it is now completely and combining it with the "Critical" section.

Both sections are pretty anemic anyways, so the combining would help flesh the critical references out a bit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teary Oberon (talk • contribs) 18:53, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

The distinction is that the News article present the issue in mainstream media, whereas the others discuss the issue. I'm not strongly opposed to merging the sections though if there is broader agreement.--Jeffro77 (talk) 21:42, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

hmm...they certainly don't make this response stuff intuitive do they, especially for a first time user. But as for the issue, I just feel like the "news" articles actually better represent criticism than they do "news" or "mainstream media." In the Rodriguez link for instance, we have essentially just an online only (not television or newspaper news), giant advertisement for Bill Bowen and Silent lambs that doesn't tell us anything that we couldn't already get from the other criticism links (which also coincidentally all involved Bowen and Silent Lambs). And if there is so little variety and so little difference CONTENT wise in the links, then what is the point of making this arbitrary distinction between "news" and "criticism"?--Teary (talk) 22:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure about wired.com, but CNN is quite definitely a news source.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:21, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I am fairly confident that wired.com shouldn't be in the news section. And secondly, what is your formal definition of "news" (or more importantly, how will the average Wiki reader understand "news")? Does not the published Christianity Today article by Corrie Cutrer count as news? And yet you have no problem throwing that into the critical section. Does not the Silent Lambs site contain "news"? Why don't you throw it up into the news category?

All I am saying is: just be consistent with your links methodology. If you are going to divide links by positiveness, negativeness and neutralness, then just stick to that (since it covers everything) and don't throw in a bunch of overlapping categories that make it hard to decide where things go (and that give biased editors excuses to take either super positive or super negative references, rip off the classification and then pass them off as seemingly more neutral and more legitimate 'news' articles).--Teary (talk) 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I am not responsible for all of the links, I have not personally checked all of the sources, and it is not my "links methodology" being employed.--Jeffro77 (talk) 21:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

You are a big presence on most of the JW articles and your name is all over the discussion page, so I assumed that you had at least some interest in it. So do you have any objection to my points, or to merging the links into a simple "supportive" and "critical" style (not taking anything away, but just cleaning up the organization)? I do want some feedback before doing these edits, even if minor.--Teary (talk) 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Refer to my first response in this section.--Jeffro77 (talk) 21:49, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok, well since you said that you weren't totally against it, and since nobody else has said anything this whole time, I went ahead and made the changes. You'll notice that the links are a lot more balanced quantity wise now. I also moved the critical section to the top as a concession to those who think I am pandering to the Witness side (which I am not). If somebody wants to raise concerns over it, then we can discuss it further then.--Teary (talk) 27 September 2011 (UTC)

All good. I would be nice if others would comment though.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:10, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Added New External Link

Added "Jehovah's Witnesses Child Abuse Policy: Exposing the Myths" link to the supportive section. This site has been around for years and is quoted almost religiously by every JW that Teary knows, so it seems like a no-brainer for the section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teary Oberon (talk • contribs) 19:37, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Neither of your reasons for inclusion are valid. It is a website authored by an unknown person that exists simply to argue in favour of the Jehovah's Witness methods of handling sex abuse cases. It does not meet the standards of WP:EL. And please sign your posts. BlackCab (talk) 21:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Of course my reasons are valid. The site has reputation, age and good referencing. It is also one of the most thorough "supportive" websites out there today (and isn't including "supportive" sites the entire purpose of the "supportive links" section?). Besides, your argument against that link could also be used of the Silent Lambs link -- it also exists simply to argue against the Jehovah's Witness method of handling sex abuse cases, does it not? --Teary Oberon 14:31, 04 November —Preceding undated comment added 19:32, 4 November 2011 (UTC).

Your two criteria for inclusion were (1) The site has been around for years and (2) it is quoted religiously by every JW you know. You now argue, without evidence, that it has reputation and good referencing. Unlike the silentlambs website, which documents media coverage of child sex offenders and provides resources for those directly affected (and thus meets the requirements of WP:EL), the website you wish to include exists only to advance arguments, based on an anonymous individual's opinions, of why criticism of the JW policies on child sex abuse are a "myth". That doesn't meet WP:EL. It provides arguments and opinions, not encyclopedic information. In addition, Silentlambs is itself the subject of a Misplaced Pages article, further confirming its encyclopedic notability. The website you are proposing be included is unrecognised by Misplaced Pages. BlackCab (talk) 21:13, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

You are arguing with a slight bias it seems. The link in question does indeed document and comment on media coverage and on court cases. It also references and quotes liberally from official Witness policies, magazines, letters, court transcripts, ect. Therefore according to you it either meets the requirements and can be included or we have to take down the Silent Lambs link.

"The website you wish to include exists only to advance arguments, based on an anonymous individual's opinions, of why criticism of the JW policies on child sex abuse are a "myth"."--Blackcab

And the Silent Lambs site exists only to advance the argument and idea that the Witness congregations are a "pedophile paradise," based on mainly one sided hearsay and often anonymous write-in accounts.

"It provides arguments and opinions"--Blackcab

So does the Silent Lambs site. Besides, when you label a section as either "Critical" or "Supportive," you are essentially getting rid of the NPOV requirement anyways. A "critical" or "supportive" link would be assumed to contain some sort of bias or argumentation simply because of the definition of the words. Also, Silent Lambs doesn't produce any encyclopedic information either in case you didn't notice. So either it is get rid of that link to or put the policy commentary link back up. Teary will go with the latter option for now.Teary Oberon —Preceding undated comment added 06:24, 9 November 2011 (UTC).

Referring to yourself in the third person is an infantile way of communicating. You have provided nothing else that supports the inclusion as an EL a website whose sole purpose is to expound the thoughts of an anonymous author who happens to own a domain name. The SilentLambs website has a greater span of content than you claim. Its existence as an external link can be argued; the anonymous website you are offering cannot.

Your reference to the labelling of websites as critical or supportive shows you misunderstand Misplaced Pages policies on neutrality. The policy requires editorial balance and that the article be written in editorially neutral terms. BlackCab (talk) 06:37, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

The proposed link is a personal website that fails WP:ELNO. End of story.--Jeffro77 (talk) 06:50, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

What about WP:ELPOV? What is wrong with a third-party website that argues in favor of Witness policy to balance a third-party website (Silentlambs) that argues against it? And isn't Misplaced Pages all created by "anonymous authors"? Why is that relevant? And what specific point in WP:ELNO precludes that site? StandFirm-JW (talk) 06:04, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

In fact, I counter-contend Silentlambs violates point 2 of WP:ELNO. StandFirm-JW (talk) 06:09, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

"Your reference to the labelling of websites as critical or supportive shows you misunderstand Misplaced Pages policies on neutrality. The policy requires editorial balance and that the article be written in editorially neutral terms."--Black

Silent Lambs balanced and editorially neutral? What planet do you live on? The people who stuck it in the "Critical" section did it for good reason, because it is as blatantly biased and anti-Witness as you can humanly get (and 99% of their testimonies are unverifiable, which violates point 2 anyways). But if you really want balance, then the proposed new link accomplishes that goal perfectly, and it references official magazines, internal documents, correspondence and court transcripts liberally. Silent Lambs is biased against the Witnesses, hence the "Critical" category tag, while the proposed site is biased for the Witnesses, hence the "supportive" category tag. The categories REMOVE the NPOV requirement. If you want the links to be totally NPOV and neutral, then you shouldn't have categories which BY DEFINITION cannot be neutral.Teary Oberon —Preceding undated comment added 06:29, 12 November 2011 (UTC).

Additionally, BlackCab said previously: "You now argue, without evidence, that it has reputation and good referencing." Please Google "thirdwitness.com" (with quotes) to see its reputation. As for good referencing, if Thirdwitness.com does not have good referencing, really what does? StandFirm-JW (talk) 18:14, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

It is a personal website run by an anonymous individual JW apologist, with no evident credentials. As such, it fails the criteria for external links per WP:ELNO. Please stop.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:02, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

It is a very relevant essay, by claiming it is a personal website you are attempting to class it with pages about a person's personal life and such which is not a valid comparison. And just who is a "recognized authority" on JW organization? Anyway I added an RfC and I hope I did that correctly. If not I apologize. StandFirm-JW (talk) 04:56, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of who might constitute a "recognized authority" on JW organization, an anonymous (recognized??) individual (authority??) certainly is not.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:15, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Additionally, the same website hosts an apologist page about the JW's 607 doctrine, which includes elements that are not in agreement with official Watch Tower Society teachings. The author is therefore not established as an expert, but rather is expressing their own opinion.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:20, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Why is that relevant? StandFirm-JW (talk) 05:24, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

It is a pity that you do not understand why it is relevant. It demonstrates that the author is neither 'recognized' nor an 'authority'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:12, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

I undid a recent edit that again added the Thirdwitness blog page as an external link. If Misplaced Pages policy supports addition of this particular external link then let's have the discussion. I don't see it but am willing to listen.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 23:17, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Does "Exposing the Myths" essay belong in external links?

Does the essay "Jehovah's Witnesses Child Abuse Policy: Exposing the Myths" belong in the "Supportive" section of "External links"? StandFirm-JW (talk) 04:54, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Please also see the discussion in the heading above to see what led up to this. I added it under Politics government and law because it deals with the government and law of Jehovah's Witnesses. (StandFirm-JW (talk) 04:57, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:ELNO: "Links normally to be avoided ... Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites".--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:11, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

A personal web page is a web page about a person and their life. Like a blog. Are you seriously suggesting that supportive essays aren't allowed in a section called supportive? Is not "Exposing the Myths" an essay? An essay is not a personal web page. StandFirm-JW (talk) 05:23, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

The 'essay' is on a personal web page. It is not the site of a "recognized authority", but of some anonymous apologist who registered a domain name. As such, it does not qualify.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:09, 13 November 2011 (UTC):

• Oppose. The owner of the domain name could have used the website as a blog; he has instead chosen to write an anonymous essay voicing his personal opinions and observations. It is no more an authoritative website offering encyclopedic information than if I had started a website to express my opinions. In any case, an RFC is not the appropriate method to seek consensus on this: WP:ELN is the forum for such disputes and I'll raise it there. Teary Oberon has so far raised a range of very thin justifications for its inclusion, including that the website has "been around for years" and "has reputation". A Whois search shows it was first registered in 2007, and by an individual who has deliberately sought anonymity. I'll be including those points in the forum discussion. BlackCab (talk) 10:21, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

I have listed the dispute at Misplaced Pages:External links/Noticeboard#Thirdwitness.com to seek comment and consensus. BlackCab (talk) 11:43, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. While standards for external links are somewhere below those for reliable sources, I don't see a reason why this WP:SELFPUBlished source has valid claim of being quasi-reliable. Jesanj (talk) 19:12, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose, as it doesn't actually belong to the "External links". I would support it as inline citation or "Further reading" instead. A sidenote about WP:SPS: by the nature of the topic strictly following WP:RS here will hurt WP:NPOV, which is absolutely unacceptable, so self-published sources should be used here. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 18:11, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I have added the link in this way. StandFirm (talk) 23:06, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Oppose. Okay, StandFirm. I have read this section of the discussion and see no reason whatsoever for including the Thirdwitness page as an external link.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 23:29, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Read the comment by Czarkoff; it is under Further reading now. StandFirm (talk) 23:38, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I read it. Among other problems, the Thirdwitness site is not WP:3PARTY.--Marvin Shilmer (talk)

WP:3PARTY applies to sources, not further reading. StandFirm (talk) 23:49, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

• Remove Per WP:ELNO, this is not a valid external link - it misleads the reader by use of ... unverifiable research, and this is not an article about the viewpoints that the site is presenting. Hipocrite (talk) 14:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
• Remove - no justification I can see for its inclusion, regardless of your opinions on anything unrelated to WP:ELNO. --Orange Mike | Talk 04:05, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Database

User:Girling Lockheed wants to add two overly defensive paragraphs about the JW offender database, which is not supported by the (improperly cited) source. It is considerably unlikely that the cited source states that "such considerations and responses are moot and on balance should be viewed in a wider dynamic", which seems to be the conclusion drawn by the editor instead. Statements about the 'offender database' being "harvested on a computer harddrive", and that it was "manifest by accident" also seem to be based on presumption and a synthesis of their opinions of the source rather than points actually made by the documentary.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:45, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:RS does allow the use of television programs as a source, but I'm very uneasy about the way GirlingLockheed is writing this. His phrasing, (such as "Indeed, the very existence of the database in New York was manifest by accident") takes on a tone that is far from editorially neutral. The material he produces is presented in vague terms with the apparent sole intention of suggesting bad motive on the part of the WTS. It's also simply badly written, with little attention given to grammar, capitalisation and Misplaced Pages style, and no attempt made to cite the material properly. BlackCab (talk) 09:42, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, just to be clear, I'm not disputing use of the TV programme as a source (if properly cited), but I have serious doubts that the documentary presents quite what is claimed. And even if it does, it's presented in the wrong tone for an encyclopaedia.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:58, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

It is riddled with POV and OR issues. It does not belong. StandFirm (talk) 23:12, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Original research?

The paragraph says:

When a member is recommended for a position of responsibility such as elder or ministerial servant, the individual is asked directly whether he has ever committed child sexual abuse; if it is revealed that he has, the proposed appointment is annulled and the branch office is advised. If an appointed individual later admits to having committed abuse, the Watch Tower Society's policy requires that the individual be removed from their position. The 1972 book, Organization for Kingdom-Preaching and Disciple-Making, stated:

If a person was serving as an elder or a ministerial servant when he committed a serious wrong, even though it was some years ago, he bears a degree of reprehensibility, for he continued to serve in that position though knowing that he had, for the time at least, disqualified himself, not being then "free from accusation." (1 Tim. 3:2, 10; Titus 1:6,7) He should have informed the judicial committee that he did not adhere to the requirements and should have stepped down from his position. In view of his failure to do this at that time, he would now be removed from that position. In October 1972 the newsletter, Our Kingdom Ministry, explained that "some years ago" meant "not the exact number of years, but more like two or three years", in contrast to actions committed "many years ago ... into the distant past." This position was further clarified in 1991 to exclude individuals involved in child sex abuse.

Both citations (of Organization and Kingdom Ministry) do not specifically refer to child abuse policy, and thus their use in the article in connection with the child abuse policy constitues original research (based on the speculations of the person who put the citations) per se, and I believe that they should be removed.--79.166.188.174 (talk) 10:38, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I have removed it. StandFirm (talk) 23:11, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Indiana group

I have commented out edits by User:RobertEdingerPHD, pending further discussion. The website in question appears to fail Misplaced Pages's standards for reliable sources (and externals links, which has been removed), as it seems to be a personal website put together by anonymous individuals rather than by any recognised authority. If there are various notable support groups, it might be warranted to include such a section, however this seems fairly tenuous as there are probably any number of such small groups—an exhaustive list would be impractical and the one that has been added doesn't seem to be especially notable.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:29, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Lawsuits

The California lawsuit punitive damage is not because the WT soceity kept the background from the congregation. The Clergy-penitant privellage is not the problem in the case. The abusers wife indeed reported the case to the authorities in 1993 as per the direction of congregation elders. As the JNOV document I linked shows the reason for the verdict by jury is based on below factors.

1) A six page letter to body of elders (1989) to all United states regarding keeping confidentiality in clergy duties was interpreted by the plaintiffs counsel and Silent-lambs Amicus briefs to court as a "policy of secrecy". The plaintiff Counsel took a contortionist way of interpreting a small para regarding child abuse in the letter, though a normal reading implied that the letter was actually asking to protect the children from further damages by reporting to societies legal department so that they could take required legal actions.

2) The plaintiff wanted the punitive damages to change the Watchtowers and GB's nationwide alleged "policy of secrecy" in the above letter, which was again unconstitutional and the jury was not aware of it.

3) The alleged abuse happened inside the Kingdom Hall per the Plaintiff which was not supported by any other evidence/witness.

4) The plaintiff counsel said that she was abused during field service at the final argument, while plaintiff actually said she was taken every week after the field service with the consent of her parents.

5) The jury was allowed only to put punitive damages to the defendants, because of the courts denial to include responsibility to non-parties such as her parents, the state police department and other Governments services who had more information than the elders had.

6) Plaintiff's expert witness misguided the jury by claiming that the elders needed to report the case in 1993, while no law exists until 1997.

So I edited the present sentence which is not at all the reason for juries decision. A statement like the Jury found that the Watchtowers policy was found responsible for the abuse would suffice. I don't know how to put the sentence correctly either. Further the article did'nt talk about over 20 lawsuits against the Watchtower society sponsored by Silent-lambs was dismissed in the past ten years. None of the cases other than this found the WT responsible, though an out of court settlement was done in one case for reasons such as the local elders failed to comply the official policy/and for the sake of Victims--Fazilfazil (talk) 18:33, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I've changed your wording, which attempted to water down a court's ruling as simply 'the jury agreed with a claim', with an implication that the jury were 'tricked'. The court made its ruling. If a later appeal results in a different ruling, it might change the end result, but it doesn't change the original ruling. There has also been more than one out-of-court settlement.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:34, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Further the depth of criminal convictions against the defendant is not yet final, though a verdict for damages was given. That is why the word "alleged" is put in the sentence, same can be seen in the official website note--Fazilfazil (talk) 18:44, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I've moved alleged to the initial statement of the abuse. It is fairly weaselly to suddenly use the word 'alleged' only when the WTS gets mentioned.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:34, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Penitent-Clergy privilege

The article presently states under lawsuits "the victims lawyers convinced the defendant that ecclesiastical privilege does not supersede the legal obligation to report to authorities". But that reference do not state anything like that. I don't think that was the reason, most likely standard of care might be the issue. In United States clergy-penitent privileged is still federally legal, holding that "if confessions are made public, then nobody will attempt to confess and therefore violates the fundamental right to freely exercise religion". I would like to see the source for that statement. In the present California case clergy was not mandated reporters either. However Watchtower society did not reply to the plaintiffs main argument that the elders should have publicized the confession to all the parents in the congregation. Seems like WTS have a plan to bring the case to the federal court by deliberately not replying to that claim--Fazilfazil (talk) 01:23, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

In the more recent 2012 case, some of the court documents (various motions to compel testimony) specifically state that clergy-penitent privilege does not apply because the information provided by the penitent to the 'clergy'* member was not of a nature that was kept confidential by the 'clergy' member, because the information was then reported to other individuals at the religion's headquarters (likely without the express consent or knowledge of the penitent).

*JWs claim they have no clergy class and that abusers are not appointed to special positions, and that all baptized members are ministers.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Is it. But I remember somewhere during the trial, the defendant lawyer objected the plaintiffs counsels question to an elder "what did he confess?" stating that privilege. Who knows--Fazilfazil (talk) 12:59, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

It would not be possible to comment on every instance, and it may be that in some instances, information was not provided (or was not revealed to have been provided) to other members beyond the 'confession' of the 'penitent' to the one 'elder'. However, documents granting motions to compel testimony provide wording such as the following: "the questions do not appear to call for communications that were presumed to be kept confidential with only the clergy member to whom they were communication. Instead, the questions appear to call for information and communications of a kind that would be expected to be communication beyond that clergy member to others within the religious organization, i.e. a judicial investigating committee, for purposes of taking responding to the communication within the church."--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:13, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Sources

Hi, I tagged the page as having unreliable sources, per the discussion pointed out to me here. However, having re-examined the sources, I thought that they may pass the source guidlines, so removed the tag. Matty.007 12:10, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi, sorry for bumping in, but I think tagging this article for having having unreliable sources, is correct when counting in the article's current use of referencing. I would like to give an proper answear to Jeffro's request as it is posted here. For me it appears to be a consensus at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 119#"Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock" used as source for use of the books Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock, Shepherd the Flock of God, or any letter, unless published through a reliable source. I can not see consensus is changed in this matter, and the discussion is from last year, so I won't say it is obsolete. As far as can see, these sources are not compliance to the current standard for a reliable source at wikipedia (numbers are for the article as of 3 August 2013:

• 4abc Letter to All Congregations in Britain, July 11, 2002
• 5 Letter to All Bodies of Elders, March 23, 1992
• 8 Jehovah's Witnesses Office of Public Information, Press Release "Jehovah's Witnesses and Child Protection," 2003
• 9 Pay Attention to Yourselves, page 111
• 12 Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock, ©1991 Watch Tower, page 93
• 13 Letter to All Bodies of Elders in Britain, December 1, 2001
• 14 Child Protection Policy in the UK (dead link)
• 15 Letter to all Bodies of Elders in Britain, December 1, 2000
• 23 2000 Molester Form Letter
• 26 Fax sent to Betsan Powys, BBC Panorama, May 9, 2002
• 28 "Letters of Introduction", to All Bodies of Elders, July 1, 2006
• 29 "Shepherd the Flock of God", chapter 3, p. 34–35
• 31 "Shepherd the Flock of God", chapter 3, p. 38–39
• 32 Jehovah's Witnesses Office of Public Information, press release "Jehovah's Witnesses and Child Protection," 2003
• 36 Non-disclosure, an ecclesiastical privilege (dead link)
• 37 To All Bodies of Elders in Canada, July 29, 1988
• 38 Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock. Brooklyn, New York: Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania. 1977. p. 138.
• 39 "To all Bodies of Elders in the United States". WTBS. 1995-08-01. Retrieved 2010-03-13. (links leads to dating site)
• 42 To All Bodies of Elders in Britain, December 1, 2000
• 43 Letter to All Bodies of Elders, December 1, 2000
• 52 To all Bodies of Elders in the United States, August 1, 1995
• 54 "Shepherd the Flock of God", p. 72
• 55 Fax from J. R. Brown, Office of Public Information, to Betsan Powys, dated May 9, 2002.
• 56 Boycott Child Molestors (I doubt this goes through as a RS in an article like this one)
• 61 "Elders John Vaughn and Andrew Sinay balked at testifying against Simental, when subpoenaed by Strunsky. They cited the confidentiality afforded by the penitent-clergy privilege." (dead link)
• 66 "Jury awards $28M to woman who said Jehovah’s Witnesses allowed church member to molest her" (dead link)

In addition, these questionable sources are used:

• 11 Letter to All Bodies of Elders, October 1, 2012, par. 12 (listed as an evidence in an ongoing court trial (?), linked at external links)
• 16 n/a (2005). Organized to do Jehovah's Will. Brooklyn, New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York. pp. 152–153 (the book was not specificly mentioned at the noticeboard, but according to H.K.Ringnes' book Jehovas vitner - en flerfaglig studie (in Norwegian), p. 10, she admits not to have had a formal access to the book, as it by JW is defined as classified, and thus not accessible for other than members of the religion).
• 17ab To All Bodies of Elders", October 1, 2012 par. 15 and 22 (ibid. as no. 11)
• 19 Louisville Courier-Journal, 1-4-01 (what is this, no author, no page numbers
• 25 "To All Bodies of Elders", October 1, 2012 par. 23 (ibid. as no. 11)
• 62 the elders in this case felt they had no duty to keep the confession confidential (is fearnotlaw.com a RS)
• 63 Alameda district court document (page number is missing - court documents should not be interpretated)
• 64 Alameda district court document (ibid. as no. 63)
• 65 Alameda district court document (ibid.)
• 69 Alameda district court document (ibid.)

I've not gone to much into details about article contents, but there are several issues in additions to the sourcing. Grrahnbahr (talk) 14:48, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Among the sources to which you object are public court records and JW press releases. Clearly these are published reliable sources. Regarding other sources, if a third-party source has cited JW sources—even if those sources are considered 'confidential'—then the material can be cited herein, but should be cited as a quoted by the third party.

Because the article is about a sensitive topic, I strongly recommend that an entirely impartial editor not previously involved with the article review the article and assess the suitability of sources.--Jeffro77 (talk) 16:03, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

The article is not listed as a sensitive topic, but I don't mind to get it listed. I think of it as controversial rather than sensitive, and think it got serious POV issues in addition to weak sourcing. According to the conclusion given at the RS noticeboard, the unpublished/confidential sources couldn't be used unless published by a RS, and then by using the RS only ("Say where you got it").

The JW press release(s) listed up here, have no link and no referencing for where it is published or where to be found.

Regarding the court documents, it is listed in the "maybe" category, as it should be handled with extreme caution as a primary source, and with no interpretation. This have been handled several times within the RS noticeboard, here, here, ], ], and in several other discussions.

In my opinion this article needs a massive clean-up. Unless you disagree to the conclusion from here the RS noticeboard, it is may not necessary with a third persons opinion/NPOV noticeboard solution. Grrahnbahr (talk) 18:03, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Is your preference to remove the sources you've indicated and delete the associated content altogether, or to search for alternative sources for the same information? If your aim is simply to censor the article, then I strongly recommend a third party perspective.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:39, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I recently added as an external link the letter to elders dated 1 October 2012 outlining WTS procedures for handling child abuse cases. The letter was submitted by the Watchtower Society to a Victorian government inquiry and there is no doubt as to its authenticity. It also meets the requirements of Misplaced Pages policies on external links: item 3 at WP:ELYES states that sites can be linked if they "contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Misplaced Pages article due to copyright issues." BlackCab (talk) 01:33, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Jeffro: You did not answear if you accepted the conclusion from the RS noticeboard. My preferences does not matter here, as it is all about wikipedia policies. I have no aim to censor the article, but I will aim for a removal of any sources and all (disputed) content relied on original research only. This is not wikileaks, but wikipedia, and thus it is not censorship to remove content not based on RS, according to the current policies.

BlackCab: WP:EL states that "his guideline does not apply to citations to sources supporting article content". I've no reasonable doubt about the authenticity of the letter of 1 October 2012. It may meets the requirements as it is listed at WP:ELYES, as a primary source and a court document out of context, it may as well suits to the WP:ELNO #2; "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research, except to a limited extent in articles about the viewpoints that the site is presenting". It is anyway not directly related to this discussion, as the issue is not the existence of the letter, but the fact it is a single court document used as a source. As a court document it should be regarded as a primary source, and be carefully handled that way. WP:PRIMARY states that "nless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Misplaced Pages; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. (...) Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them." As the policy allows use of primary sources under certain restricted conditions, I've listed the mentioned letter as a questionable sources. It is not an unconditionally go for using the sources, as the conditions mentioned in the policy (WP:PRIMARY) still have to be fulfilled, and it is reasonable to have a second look at the use of primary source in an article as heavily based on original research as this one. Grrahnbahr (talk) 09:58, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

There is no use of the letter in the body of the article, nor is there any interpretation. The link is provided as an appendix to the article rather than incorporating it into the article. It is a neutral set of facts: the WTS official procedure on Jehovah's Witnesses handling of child sex abuse, the exact subject of the article. BlackCab (talk) 10:03, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The 'conclusion' reached at the reliable sources noticeboard is largely Grrahnbahr's interpretation of responses to his own lengthy complaints there. Other editors didn't say such sources cannot be used. What other editors there did say:

• The supposed 'legality' (in Grrahnbahr's opinion) of 'leaked' sources does not make those sources 'inaccessible'.
• We need to be sure the quote is authentic. (However, the authenticity of the documents in question has not actually been challenged.)
• JW publications can be used as sources about their own beliefs and practices, though secondary sources quoting the originals are preferred.

The only real objection raised is that copies of the material online might disappear, however copies of the material are widely available online. Despite what Grrahnbahr has implied, there was no definite "conclusion" arrived at by other editors.--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:45, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

BlackCab: You claimed it "is no use of the letter in the body of the article, nor is there any interpretation". Is that really so? The letter is listed as a reference, and the only reference, to the statement in the article: "'Privileges' may be restored to known child sex offenders if 'considerable time has passed,' at the discretion of local elders." (ref 25, current article version) It is also used to support the following statements: "Such a person is automatically debarred from serving in any appointed position in the congregation, however privileges can be restored in the future depending on whether he or she is deemed by the branch office to be a 'known molester'", and "However, whether or not a child abuser is deemed a 'known molester' is left to the discretion of the local branch. The October 1, 2012 letter to elders states, 'the branch office, not the local body of elders, determines whether one who has sexually abused a child is considered a known child molester' and adds, 'It cannot be said in every case that one who has sexually abused a child could never qualify for privileges of service in the congregation". (ref 17 a and b, current version). As far as I can see, it is controversial claims based on highly selective quotation from a primary source. I've not looked to much into the "External links"-section for now, and the sources for even those highly controversial claims (ref 17 ab and 25), is only in my "questionable sources"-list, from my first post in this discussion. My main concern is that nearly the whole article is build on sources not regarded as RS, and as is listed in the upper part of my first post in this discussion.

Jeffro: Several editors were really clear about where the sources where accessible, and how it was used, has a major impact whether a source should be used or not: "We also care whether it is indeed the actual source. An alleged 'leaked copy' on some website somewhere is prima facie unreliable. An account of the contents of the book in a reliable secondary source, published by someone who has actually seen it, in a publication with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, is what we want." "After all, anyone can put anything on a website and claim that it is some super-secret doument. In the absence of some reason to believe in the authenticity we simply cannot use it." "Just one (belated) comment: Depending on what you're trying to support with this source, I think it would be much safer if you could find an outside secondary source that cites this source. In other words, instead of citing the internally published book to say that it says such and such, find a scholarly article or book that says that the internally published book says such and such." Did we actually read the same discussion from the notice board?

The authenticity doesn't matter if it can't be verified as a RS. The RS noticeboard is there for such matters, and letters and books for internal use, not published or by someone "who has actually seen it, in a publication with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", was concluded not to be relied on as RS.

Regarding "JW publications can be used as sources about their own beliefs and practices, though secondary sources quoting the originals are preferred", I only partially agree. I agree to use of JW publications in general whitch is used in accordance to WP:PRIMARY. Quotes and content from classified JW publications and internal letters can only be used as a RS, if used by a reliable secondary source, as of the Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 119#"Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock" discussion at the RS noticeboard.Grrahnbahr (talk) 00:31, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Apologies, I was unaware the letter had previously been cited. The citation should in that case be changed to a direct link, and the link deleted from the external links. I don't know, however, if the letter I added to the ELs (issued by the Australian branch to Australian bodies of elders) is identical to the 1 October 2012 letter cited by another editor. BlackCab (talk) 02:08, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Grrahnbahr, you seem to be hanging your interpretation on the statement that, "An alleged 'leaked copy' on some website somewhere is prima facie unreliable." You therefore seem to be misinterpreting the term prima facie, which means at first sight; it doesn't indicate anything absolute about the suitability of the sources in question. You know quite well that the sources in question are authentic.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:54, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

BlackCab: I thought it may was so. The letter used as a source are most likely the same or identical as the one listed in external links, as some of the quotes matches up for the referenced paragraphs (for 17 ab it is referenced to par. 15 and 22).

Jeffro: What I know about the authenticity of the letters, does not matter here. It is listed several letters as sources, and made claims about JW's handling of child sex abuse, without any further notices about the letter. It is obvious contributing to serious POV-issues to this article. The fact that large part of this article is build on original research, makes it neccesary to remove content build on those sources. Unless it is any intentions of replacing the sources, I'll start the job. I've been specific on what sources that obviously fails as RS (according to wikipedia policies, and the mentioned WP:RS discussion), and also made a maybe-list. The tag is an opportunity for you to take actions and make a suggestion how to fix the sources, but I won't keep the article like it is because you don't accept conclusions from the RS notice board. If you disagree to any of the sources I've listed in the first post (the maybe-list not included), then you have to be more specific of what sources you think of as RS and correctly used in this article. Grrahnbahr (talk) 00:47, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

The RS discussion did not reach a definite conclusion as you claim. No one other than you said at the RS discussion that the sources cannot be used, although secondary sources are certainly preferred. And you have again indicated that the authenticity of the sources is not in question. You are correct that the article should not interpret those sources, but it is not inappropriate to quote those sources and let readers make up their own minds.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:39, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I notice you have raised no objection to references 47 and 48, which both provide quotes indicating that members are allowed to report abuse to secular authorities.

• Letter To All Bodies of Elders in the United States, February 15, 2002
• Letter To All Bodies of Elders in the United States, February 3, 1993

It appears that your rationale is not based strictly on the source, but rather, their content.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:52, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I didn't notice when making the list, but sure, the sources, like they stands now, are not good. If the letters are reused by any relyable secondary source, then these should be given up as the source for the claims. As the other letters are not concidered as RS as they stands, then the same applies to those two letters. Grrahnbahr (talk) 12:33, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

As already stated, secondary source are preffered. However, it is only your inference that the primary sources can't be used.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:48, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Most, if not all, the sources in the list from my first post in this discussion, the maybe-list not included, are not concidered as RS, according to the RS noticeboard as linked in my first post in this discussion. It doesn't matter if it's a primary source or a secondary source, if it can't be concidered as a RS. Claims without a RS are at risk of being deleted. I made the maybe-list, as I knew the possibility for somebody cavilling about the questionable sources to hail the process. Grrahnbahr (talk) 23:51, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

You are relying on your own conclusion at the RS noticeboard for your own determination of which sources are reliable. The other editors did not say those sources cannot be used.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:54, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The book, Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock is not an unpublished text. Rather, it is a bona fide publication of the Watch Tower Society. It is listed among other Watch Tower Publications in the Watch Tower Society's Publications Index, and referenced as a "publication" in The Watchtower of 15 January 1994, page 17: "Among such publications is the book “Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock,” which contains Scriptural guidelines and is provided for appointed congregation overseers, or elders."--Jeffro77 (talk) 02:29, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I've readded the tag for Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock. The book is not listed in any public libraries as I know about, is not in sale, and is not lent out by the publisher. I don't know what pdf you're referencing to, but the burden to prove that the book is accessible as a pdf at a reliable web site, is yours, or, of course if it should be available as a hardcopy in a library or in a book store. The fact that you claim to be able to verify it, doesn't help readers who can't access it. I've readded the tag until you've proven the book to be accessible for other readers offline, or at a reliable web site. As from the notice board discussion: "A text that is only distributed within an organization is not 'published'", "If the text has crept out, and others can get access to it whenever they take the trouble, e.g. it is made available in libraries to any user of those libraries, then the people making it available have, in effect, published it (but they may be asked to stop doing so). If the text has been copied on to a public website (not an intranet) then the owner of the website is publishing it (but, again, may be asked to stop doing so)." It is very hard to read this otherways than the text, as from the hardcopy of the book, never have been "published", as a source is recognized at RS notice board/wikipedia. If the text, or the claim-to-be-the-text, is made accessible through a public website, it have been "published" through the website, but then the reliability of the text relies on the public website, and the website should be listed as the source of the claim. From Misplaced Pages:Published: "The word derives from the Latin word meaning to make known publiCertain publications are limited to members in appointed positions, such as the manual for congregation elders, Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock.cly. Publication is the first threshold that all information must meet to be included in Misplaced Pages's articles. (...) To be considered published, the book must be distributed to the public in general, not to individuals." Grrahnbahr (talk) 18:40, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

You're actually claiming that the quotes are not what the publication actually says?? Seriously? Sources do not have to be readily accessible by any particular person to be considered a reliable source. WP:SOURCEACCESS states, "Some reliable sources may not be easily accessible. For example, some online sources may require payment, while some print sources may be available only in university libraries or other offline places. Do not reject sources just because they are hard or costly to access. If you have trouble accessing a source, others may be able do so on your behalf (see WikiProject Resource Exchange)." The fact is that others have made the text available. You know quite well that there is no reason to doubt the veracity of the text that has been quoted from the publications in question. You want to have the sources removed because the book is 'supposed' to be 'secret'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:26, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

You have still not listed where the publication is available. It's not a publication (I here use the term "publication" and "published" exclusively as used according to the definitions found at Misplaced Pages:Published) per se, as it have never been "published", as described in Misplaced Pages:Published: "It is necessary for the information to be made available to the public in general, not just to individual editors or selected groups of people", and "n item that is or was never distributed to a public, is not considered 'published' by the Wikipedian definition". The book is not proven made available to the public in general. According to Jehovah's Witnesses publications#Literature for members, "ertain publications are limited to members in appointed positions, such as the manual for congregation elders, Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock", as opposite to "ome publications are typically distributed only to members, but may be supplied to other interested individuals on request or made available in public libraries. These include the biblical encyclopedia Insight on the Scriptures and Jehovah's Witnesses' official history book Jehovah's Witnesses—Proclaimers of God's Kingdom." You keeps assuming bad faith. Who are you, to tell me or anyone what my motivations for editing wikipedia, removing OR included, is? I have tagged the article, to give you and other editors a possibility to replace non-reliable sources, with reliable ones. For some claims, I'll may do so myself. If removing OR makes the article shorter, but more reliable, so be it, but like you're bahaving now, you're obstructing a neccessery removal of original research, and is refusing to cooperate, by removal of tags without clearify how the source is accessible, by request. Grrahnbahr (talk) 11:32, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I very clearly indicated in the section below that I have no problem removing original research, but that is not the issue here. We are talking about quotations from source material that indicate the group's own rules, without exposition about the merits of those rules. That isn't original research. It is also not necessary to provide instructions about 'how sources are accessible'. If you can provide any good reason to doubt the veracity of the sourced material, do so. The content is readily available online at various locations; if actual text is disputed, anyone is welcome to prove otherwise.--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:53, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

You claim to be concerned about original research, but instead of focusing on claims of critics, you are instead arguing at length about a JW publication that you think should be kept 'secret', even though the statements sourced from it are easily verifiable online and generally not even controversial. Perhaps you should focus on unsourced details rather than trying to censor the 'secret' book.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:07, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

You have still not provided a reliable place for downloading the book. I've browsed through the link, and there are no link to a reliable place to download or buy the book. I do have objections for use of books distributed through unreliable web sites as jwleaks, jehovahs-witnesses.net and pirate bay, as those are not concidered as reliable. If you use jwleaks as a source, it is your call, but it is still not reliable, and will be reverted. Listing Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock as a source, when jwleaks are used, is not according to the conclusions from Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 119#"Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock". If other users can't verify the source through a reliable website or a library, bookstore or another accesible way, then the book is per se not published. Grrahnbahr (talk) 12:54, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I provided links as a concession. It is not a requirement that a copy of the source meeting your requirements be easily accessible.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:21, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

There is no 'conclusion' at the Reliable sources noticeboard other than your own that suggest that unofficial publication of the source does not count. Other editors explicitly stated that unofficial distribution constitutes publication. There is no reason to doubt the content of the available source material, as it is typical of JW materials. If the available sources said something like "JWs eat kittens", obviously it would be suspect, but the available sources provide the actual text of the publication. You are welcome to provide any example of where the text has been altered.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:30, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

As of the RS noticeboard, you may concider it published, but then not by WTS, but by pirate bay, jwleaks or similar: "The point is that if someone publishes unofficially what they claim to be a private document then we need to have a reputation for reliability on the part of the person publishing to allow us to use the thing published as an authentic copy of the private ducument. After all, anyone can put anything on a website and claim that it is some super-secret doument," and "f the text has been copied on to a public website (not an intranet) then the owner of the website is publishing it (but, again, may be asked to stop doing so)". I asked for a specific clarification for citing the book, and asked: "If we are referencing a source using the book, shouldn't the source be given, rather than using the book as source?" User Andrew Dalby replied with a quick "Certainly. 'Say where you got it.'" How did that became my conclusion? RS noticeboard does not often use expressions as "strictly forbidden" when it comes to use of a source, and in RS noticeboard discussion it was said about documents uploaded to some website, "After all, anyone can put anything on a website and claim that it is some super-secret doument. In the absence of some reason to believe in the authenticity we simply cannot use it." User Andrew Dalby said "Misplaced Pages's problems with that are (a) it may be taken off the internet or withdrawn from library stock, in which case our citation can no longer be verified, (b) in the case of the web copy, we can't verify that the copy is accurate." Whatever and however you boil this down, you could concider the book as a) per se unpublished, as of wikipedia:published, or b) you could concider a web copy as published, but unless published by a source with a known "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", the web copy should be adressed as the source, and then it still won't be a RS, and the content the source should support, is still at stake. It is still actually a c) If quoted by a RS, both sources should be listed, as in "Shepherd the Flock of God, as quoted by (somebody else) in (a RS). Grrahnbahr (talk) 00:16, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

"Say where you got it" is in reference to when the book is quoted by someone else. For example, Franz sometimes quotes from the publication, and in such instances, the citation would say that it was from the book as cited by Franz. When a citation is from the actual book, it isn't necessary to indicate what particular copy of the book the citation is from. In any case, you don't have any basis for claiming that the quotes in the article were obtained from web copies of the book rather than the physical book. You have not indicated any reason for doubting the authenticity of any particular quote.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:30, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I also note that the editor who started this section (who ultimately disagreed with your conclusion) did so after they were informed on a Misplaced Pages IRC channel about the original 'complaint' on the RS noticeboard. Can you confirm that it was not you who re-initiated the discussion using IRC to avoid a trail on Misplaced Pages talk pages?--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:45, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Just my two cents: The definition of "published" is clear and thus the textbook in question is not according to Wiki's guidelines. Thus it does appear that what Grrahnbahr states is correct regardless of whether the quotes of the book are accurate or not. The book is copyrighted and any links on the Net would be illegal. If an agreement can not be made take it up with an arbitrary, since this isn't that difficult of an issue. But as Jeffro77 said they are bigger fishes to catch. So many articles are bias and need much help! Johanneum (talk) 02:49, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Citing a book, or quoting small excerpts from a book, is not a breach of copyright. Though the published copies on the Internet may not comply with copyright law, that does not mean that the quotes used in the article were not sourced from a physical copy of the book. I suggested previously that an uninvolved editor decide on the suitability of the sources (and, in fact, the person who started this section made such an assessment and agreed that the sources are usable).--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:02, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Not sure if you two understand the position of the other or not. Don't think that copyright was an issue but will let Grrahnbahr answer that. Johanneum (talk) 17:48, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

You raised the matter of copyright, but you're correct that it's not directly relevant. The fact is that, although the book is 'supposed' to be accessible only by JW 'elders', that is simply not the reality. As such, its content is not especially difficult to verify, and ease of access isn't even a determining factor.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:07, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

It is not a question about copyright. We're quoting published material as a source, according to policies and fair use. The issue is that this specific publication, aloing with a lot of letters, are not accessible from non-elders, other that alleged leaked copies in wiki-leak-style. It fails Misplaced Pages:published, and is thus not regarded a VS. The book and the letters used to build parts of this article, have been discussed at the linked RS noticeboard discussion. The clear advice from several users at the notice board, was not to use the book (actually two distinct elders manual-books) as source. User Jeffro77 was a part of the discussion himself. Grrahnbahr (talk) 12:29, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

You keep making claims that there was "clear advice" not to use the sources. That is not the case, and you're going around in circles. Continue reading from my reply above from 5 August starting with "The 'conclusion' reached at the reliable sources noticeboard is largely Grrahnbahr's interpretation...".--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:40, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I've taken a look at how the article might look if the information based on all the sources suggested by Grrahnbahr were to be removed. It might make the first half of the (much shorter) article sound a bit like a PR piece, but overall the article might not be too bad. That said, I still do not agree that the elder's books cannot be used, because these are fairly easily verified online, and there's been no meaningful challenge to their authenticity. The Letters to Elders are a little harder to verify, and these could probably be removed without too much detriment to the article (though these can still be used where cited by another source). Other claims by unsourced anonymous 'critics' can also be removed; strictly speaking they can be removed at any time, but preferably after allowing some time since they were tagged (perhaps a month or so).--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:24, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

The letter to elders dated 1 October 2012 that was distributed by the Australian branch is certainly verifiable. The WTS has submitted it to a Victorian government inquiry and it has been posted on that inquiry's website. BlackCab (talk) 02:05, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

BlackCab: Regarding the letter dated 1 October 2012, I've not (at least not intentionally) tagged them as OR, because it seems to be accessible through a verifiable source. As a reprinted document (not reworked, as in a book or a newspaper) it is though a primary source, and should be handled as one. A statement like "'Privileges' may be restored to known child sex offenders if 'considerable time has passed,' at the discretion of local elders" is may not careful use of a primary source.

Jeffro: You can still keep advocating why it shouldn't be used, but the issue is already raised at the RS noticeboard, and you was actually participating in the discussion. There are no significant changes regarding its status as published since the noticeboard discussion.Grrahnbahr (talk) 07:48, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Other editors at the RS noticeboard didn't say what you concluded.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:54, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I maintain that the conclusions reached at the RS noticeboard were not as absolute as you say. However, in the interests of making some progress on this issue, how about you go ahead and make the changes to the article as you see fit. And then we can determine if the article still presents the issues neutrally, or if it comes across primarily as a PR piece.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I didn't see this one before the WP:ANI was posted. There are several issues mentioned, and this specific issue demand a fully compliance to the notice board discussion, so we don't need to repeat this discussion. Grrahnbahr (talk) 11:59, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Each of your accusations at ANI are either false or misleading.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:51, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

You do not seem to understand what I have previously said about the RS noticeboard discussion, so I will try to be clear.

• Editors at the RS noticeboard provided general advice, and did not say that the sources in question cannot be used.
• Though the souces can be easily verified online and the authenticity of the text has not been challenged, it is not a requirement that sources be easily verifiable.
• I am not the only editor who considered the discussion at the RS noticeboard and determined that the sources can be used (though the letters are not as easy to verify as the books).
• I am not required to 'agree' with your interpretation of the general advice at the RS noticeboard discussion.
• Despite the fact that I don't agree with you, I told you to go ahead with your edits anyway.
• You have made no attempt to improve the article since, and you have made it your main aim to attack my motives instead.

Please get on with improving the article, if that is actually your intent.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Critics argue

I haven't paid much attention to this article, but having a quick read through, I notice an awful lot of "critics argue" statements without any critics being identified or sources provided for this criticism. Much of it seems to be written in an argumentive form that is far from an editorially neutral point of view. BlackCab (talk) 00:03, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I haven't either. Statements with "Critics argue" without a RS, or without a source, are probably not worthy inclusion anyway. It shouldn't be to hard to find critics quoted from RS for the most common criticism. It could be tagged, or, since the article is tagged, and have been tagged for some days, just simply removed. Grrahnbahr (talk) 17:34, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Statements attributed to anonymous 'critics' should be removed if a suitable source cannot be located. This can be done at any time.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:36, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Removed claims

I've removed som claims from the initial part of the article, decribing not named critics, using an ongoing trial for "evidence". It was sourced, but as the source did mention the ongoing trial, it did not mention anything about it being used as evidence. I did also remove a statement about crime not being common among JW, as the relevance to the topic is doubtful (crime is a lot more then child sex abuse, and what is being defined as sex child abuse in some countries, could be fully legal in other countries). The initial part of the article is now may shorter than optimal, but the claims didn't belong there. Grrahnbahr (talk) 13:13, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I have restored the second part. The statement is not about crime in general, but "this crime", that is, the crime of child sex abuse; and it is implicit that it is a crime in countries where it is a crime. The opinion is cited as an official JW statement about itself, so I don't see how it would be controversial, and it is a suitable statement in the lead to introduce the group's position on the matter.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:21, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the other 'claims', I understand that these have been present in the article for quite some time, but they have only been tagged very recently. It might be better to revisit those unsourced claims in a couple of months?--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:35, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I'll give it some time, if somebody actually is working on fixing the issues. I'll may replace some of them myself, if I bumpes into reliable sources describing the actual issue. For obvious cases, like the somebody claims something mentioned in the other discussion, I don't see any good reasons to wait. Grrahnbahr (talk) 14:06, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I did raise the issue of strong POV issues in the article citing unnamed critics, but I'm not in a position to give this article much attention. I'm tied up with another couple of Wiki projects. Presumably whoever wrote those claims into the article has been and gone, so I don't see much value in waiting to get rid of this stuff. From a very cursory glance, the article doesn't have a lot of substance anyway. BlackCab (talk) 03:23, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Clarification of the policies

This article, like it stands, mixes up the JW's policies regarding handling of sexual abuse within the congregation, with the JW's policies regarding reporting child sex abuse to the authorities, where it is required. It is briefly mentioned in the article, but sections like "Two witnesses" is only actual when it comes to congregational dicipline, and have no effect on reporting suspected cases of child sex abuse to the authorities when required. According to an interview of PR spokesman of Jehovah's Witnesses in Norway (from the Norwegian National Broadcasting, NRK), Tom Frisvold, there are no demands for a suspected minor abuse victim, to confront the accused person, and to do so would be outrageous. He does also say that all suspected cases of child sex abuse (in Norway) known to JW in Norway, are being reported to the police, as required by law.

The article does also mixes up effects from former policies (or lack of such), and mentions criticism relevant to the former policies, with current policies. Current and former settlements involving JW (not RF members as individuals) appairs all to be about former policies, or lack of those, as failing to report cases to the police when required.

The article fails to mention there are no indications of more cases of child sex abuse among JW than the outside community. I think of this as important it should be mentioned in the initial part of the article. The criticism is primarly about policies, or lack of such, and is in a large degree about policies (or lack of policies) from several years ago. Grrahnbahr (talk) 13:59, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't see where the article implies that an old policy is still in effect. The policies haven't really changed significantly; where they have changed, the article seems to present the current policies, even though some of the sources are from the older elder's book. The criticisms also seem to be applicable to current policies. (I've only skimmed over it though.) Can you be more specific?

The article is about handling of child sex abuse, and as such, it does address the policies. JW activities aren't quite the same as groups such as the Catholic Church, so it's to be expected that the article addresses things a bit differently. For example, all 'active' JWs are considered 'ordained ministers', and they are expected to engage with people in the community as part of their preaching work, which is directly relevant to concerns about child sex abuse. Also, JW 'confessions' are not the same as in other churches, because reports of abuse are not kept confidential between the 'penitent' (whether it's an abuser or a victim) and the 'clergy' (elders, who are or are not 'clergy' depending on the situation), because these matters are reported to the branch office.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:08, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Misleading

The Lawsuits section currently states:

In the post-trial motion, the Watch Tower Society's attorney stated in a court memorandum that no United States court has previously found its conduct or policy regarding sex abuse to be unlawful, claiming that the Watch Tower Society's reprehensibility is "very low" if any. The court reduced the Watch Tower Society's total liability to US$10 million,

The way it is presented implies that the court reduced the amount because the WTS was 'less reprehensible' than initially determined by the court, however the source indicates that the reduction was actually based on the ratio between the punitive and compensatory damages.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:59, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Unreferenced claim

Grrahnbahr claims I added an "unreferenced claim".. This is entirely incorrect. I merged 3 duplicate references to a single named reference, moved an existing point about 'reporting to authorities' from Questioning the victim to Reporting to civil authorities, and moved an existing point about 'ordained ministers' from Reproof and restrictions to Congregation discipline.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:09, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

My mistake, have removed the same claim. Grrahnbahr (talk) 08:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

And I've restored it. The statement, both in its old and new locations, was and is supported by the jw-media citation that follows.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:31, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

• Start-Class Christianity articles
• High-importance Christianity articles
• Start-Class Jehovah's Witnesses articles
• Top-importance Jehovah's Witnesses articles
• WikiProject Christianity articles
• Start-Class Crime-related articles
• Low-importance Crime-related articles
• WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography articles