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War-torn Societies Project

References

Hi – there could be more information on the War-torn Societies Project, which was a UN-affiliated initiative that subsequently became the international peacebuilding organisation Interpeace, as well as on the Somali think tanks that were established during Matthew Bryden's tenure as Somalia coordinator for WSP. In the interests of transparency I am declaring that I work for Bell Pottinger, a London-based PR agency, and that Matthew Bryden is my client. I will register this on the COI Noticeboard. Please see my user page for more information.

I suggest expanding the two sentences:

In 1996, he established a Somali program called WSP-International, which stands for War-torn Societies Project. Around the same time, he co-founded three Somali think-tanks.

To read:

In 1996, Matthew Bryden became Somalia coordinator for the War-torn Societies Project (now Interpeace), a UN-affiliated research organisation set up to assist the international community and national actors to understand and respond to the challenges of rebuilding war-torn societies in post-conflict situations. During this tenure, Bryden co-founded three Somali research and peace-building institutions: the Centre for Research and Dialogue in Mogadishu; the Puntland Development Research Centre in Garowe, Puntland; and the Academy for Peace and Development in Hargeysa, Somaliland.

References are in citation templates in the HTML. Many thanks. HOgilvy (talk) 17:06, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

We already had issues with Bell Pottinger representatives on the Dahabshiil page. Though it's good this time that you revealed your conflict of interest, please respect Misplaced Pages's policies, particularly those pertaining to neutrality. I realize that this may be challenging to adhere to with Bryden as your BP public relations client, but these are the website rules. Middayexpress (talk) 15:37, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

FYI, Midday, you should be made aware of the discussion at COIN, which is where I was pinged. CorporateM (Talk) 17:55, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Middayexpress (talk) 18:26, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Lead

User:Middayexpress, I accidentally sort of mowed over your edits in the Lead, not realizing someone else was editing in real-time. Is the current ok? I am not familiar with the topic. CorporateM (Talk) 15:51, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Sure. Middayexpress (talk) 15:54, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Or not, since you reverted it. To avoid edit-warring, lets discuss it here. A few thoughts about the lead:

• I think that he has "written, books, essays and articles" is too trivial to include in the lead
• Ditto on his passport
• I think saying he was "the center of considerable controversy" sounds like original synthesis and editorializing
• We have a really long, awkward, run-on sentence describing the views of his critics.

CorporateM (Talk) 15:58, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The fact that Bryden carries a Somaliland passport (which no country in the world recognizes) is important, but can be mentioned in the body. However, Bryden's longstanding support for the secessionist movement in Somaliland must be mentioned in the lede. Please propose alternate phrasing. Middayexpress (talk) 16:05, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

"Matthew Bryden is a Canadian political analyst. He is best-known for his work related to the Horn of Africa for the United Nations and other organizations. He was the coordinator for the UN's Somalia and Eritrea Monitoring Group from 2008 to 2012.

Bryden has been a supporter of the secession of Somaliland from Somalia. Critics have argued that he covertly sought to put Somalia in disarray to improve the odds of Somaliland being recognized as a free state. Bryden is a Canadian national, but carries a Somaliland passport."

It's debatable what Bryden is best known for. We can only state with confidence what he is known for, and that's his time at the SEMG and ICG, as well as his concurrent, related support for the secessionist movement in Somalia's northwestern Somaliland region. Given this, here's better phrasing:

Matthew Bryden is a Canadian political analyst. Between 2004 and 2006, he served as a senior analyst with the International Crisis Group. He was appointed coordinator of the UN's Somalia and Eritrea Monitoring Group in 2008, but was later fired from the post in August 2012 after the UN received "detailed complaints" about him.

Along with his in-laws, Bryden has been a supporter of the secessionist movement in the northwestern Somaliland region of Somalia. Critics have argued that he covertly abused his positions within the SEMG and ICG to promote disorder in Somalia, on the belief that this would improve the odds that Somaliland would receive international recognition as an independent country.

Perhaps it should also be pointed out (at least in the body) that Bryden wasn't always a supporter of secessionism. Earlier in his career, he apparently wrote papers promoting unity. It seems that the change may have happened when he met his current wife. Middayexpress (talk) 16:41, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

This may be original research or original synthesis, but I do remember seeing something along these lines in a proper secondary source. The structure is also a mess now and I'm not sure the best way to fix it. He is best-known for this one specific issue, which creates a WP:ONEEVENT problem. CorporateM (Talk) 17:23, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it's all mentioned in the links that you just removed from the lede. The last part on Bryden's former unionist stance isn't mentioned, though. Middayexpress (talk) 17:42, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The lead is suppose to contain no citations, because it summarizes the body of the article, per WP:LEAD, but a bot should restore the cites momentarily where they are used in the Body. CorporateM (Talk) 17:50, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok, but the fact that he was fired as coordinator of the SEMG somehow slipped through in the body. Middayexpress (talk) 18:01, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

It was sourced to a primary source, which I would find "ok" for saying that he no longer works there, but not regarding the complaints they've heard. In such a highly-political environment, we would want secondary sources that are independent and can interpret the circumstances. It's normal for the one doing the firing (as well as the one being fired) to be bias about each other. CorporateM (Talk) 18:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the report on Bryden's dismissal from the SEMG is from a secondary source . Middayexpress (talk) 18:23, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Works for me! Did Bryden have some involvement in this?:

At the behest of the Somali federal government, the United States, African Union, Arab League, and IGAD, the 15-member UN Security Council later unanimously approved Resolution 2093 on March 6, 2013 to suspend the 21-year arms embargo on Somalia. The endorsement officially lifts the purchase ban on light weapons for a one year period, but retains certain restrictions on the procurement of heavy arms.

CorporateM (Talk) 19:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

It's provided for context to show that the arms embargo, which his SEMG at least nominally helped enforce, was later/eventually lifted. Middayexpress (talk) 19:40, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Since it's more of a context thing, do you think we could shorten it? Like "the arms agreement Bryden supervised was later dismantled on March 6, 2013" CorporateM (Talk) 19:46, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Done. Middayexpress (talk) 20:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Break

I'm going to stop editing for now for the following reason: the only sources I can find that present a balanced portrayal of his life (such as growing up, his early career, etc.) are primary sources. He appears to be known for only two things: (a) advocating for the secession of Somaliland and (b) his aggressive and (arguably) over-reaching enforcement of arms agreements. Both these actions are highly controversial and areas attracting substantial criticisms for his role at "one of the toughest jobs in the UN".

I think it would be worth getting a few thoughtful comments from different editors before proceeding on a few options:

1. We could argue that "this is what he is best known for" and WEIGHT applies
2. We can point out WP:WI1E and WP:ONEEVENT and nominate the article for deletion
3. We can split the article up into articles on Somoliland and the United Nations Monitoring Group

CorporateM (Talk) 17:50, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The page is about Bryden and should focus on him and his actions. That includes those pertaining to the UN's Somalia and Eritrea Monitoring Group (SEMG) and his longstanding support for secessionism in the Somaliland region. The two things listed above that Bryden is known for are actually related since he is alleged to have misused his position at the SEMG to further the goals of the secessionist movement. This was prior to his dismissal from the SEMG. Middayexpress (talk) 18:16, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Reading stuff like this, I'm not sure how to handle it. CorporateM (Talk) 19:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Comments

The intro is (or was) based on just two sources a) a heavily biased opinion piece on hiiraan.com (Said A. Saryan routinely refers to Somaliland as ‘the secessionist enclave’ – there is in fact a significant minority in Somaliland who are opposed to secession), and b) a press release from the NSUM (Northern Somali Unionist Movement) – a group from the volatile Sool, Sanaag and Ceyn (SSC) regions that are situated between, and are disputed by, Somaliland and Puntland. It’s a press release, and, in any case, the link is broken and it doesn’t seem to be available anywhere else.

The notion that Ubax Bryden is a Somalilander (I can provide a copy of her passport which shows that she is in fact a French national) seems to come from the Hiiraan article:

“Matt is married to a 'Somalilander' woman and is known to travel overseas with a Canadian passport but when he lands at Hargeisa airport he produces his Somaliland’s ‘passport’, which is not recognized outside the secessionist’s enclave but holders of this symbolic but useless document are exempted from the payment of the airport’s landing fees.”

That sentence also seems to be the basis for the idea that Matthew Bryden carries a ‘Somaliland passport’. But as this passage itself points out, because Somaliland is not recognised there’s no such internationally recognised document – all he or anyone else visiting Somaliland is issued with is essentially just a temporary visa.

While there are plenty of accusations in the Hiiraan article that Matthew Bryden advocates the secession of Somaliland, there is nothing to suggest that he ‘covertly promotes disorder’. There is only this speculation about his likely attitude as Coordinator of the SEMG:

“After all Matt Bryden is a ‘Somalilander’ who will be suspected of looking the other way if, for example, arms and funds are flowing to the Somali insurgents in the southern parts of the country, thus re-enforcing Hargeisa’s sadistic Modus Operandi that: continued strife and anarchy in Mogadishu is their ticket to recognition as an independent state.”

The article contains a link to a Transitional Federal Government press release objecting to Bryden’s 2008 appointment as coordinator of the Monitoring Group – that link is also broken but it can be found here: http://wardheer.startlogic.com/News_08/june/press_release_somali_un_mission.html

This press release makes similar claims about his stance on Somaliland, but does not accuse him of actively promoting disorder as part of some supposed wider strategy among Somaliland separatists to denigrate other regions as a way of promoting their cause.

Hiiraan is known for publishing strongly anti-Somaliland content – a stance that is particularly apparent here. This one article surely can’t justify the current lead on its own.

The Hiiraan article is also the basis for the following:

“As Director of the African Program at the ICG, he oversaw in 2006 the preparation and publication of reports promoting the breakup of Somalia and the recognition of Somaliland.”

In fact he oversaw just one report on Somalia, which promoted neither. It concludes:

“Ultimately, there are only two possible outcomes to this dispute: some form of united Somali state (whether in the form of a federation, confederation or a unitary arrangement involving considerable autonomy), or independent neighbours. The AU’s challenge is to provide timely, neutral leadership in order to ensure a just, peaceful and enduring settlement.”

It's also worth having a look at two papers authored by Bryden that demonstrate the breadth of this thinking on the question of Somalia/Somaliland:

Somalia and Somaliland: Envisioning a dialogue on the question of Somali unity

This paper, in particular the section ‘The shape of Somali unity: restructuring the state’, explores a number of different possibilities for a federal solution and demonstrates a clear commitment to seeking compromise. In no way does it advance the cause of Somaliland ‘at the expense of other Somali regions’.

The "Banana Test": is Somaliland ready for recognition?

This paper is actually very sober in its description of Somaliland:

“Power remains overwhelmingly centralized, concentrated in the hands of a largely unaccountable elite. Corruption is endemic and the competing demands of clan-based interest groups for financial and political payoffs continue to provide opportunities for venal or complacent leaders to maintain power and influence.”

and warns that statehood (i.e. secession), far from solving those problems overnight, could in fact

“…breed corrupt and sclerotic government, crony capitalism, and popular apathy.”

These sentiments are hardly consistent with the idea that Matthew Bryden supports Somaliland separatists and opposes those who wish to maintain Somalia’s territorial integrity. HOgilvy (talk) 18:41, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

We normally don't include the names of non-notable BLPs, which is why his wife is no longer mentioned. The best way to adjust for the bias of sources is for us to rely on them for facts, but not tone, and to balance them with a variety of sources. The papers you provided are primary sources, but could be added to the bibliography. I think all the press releases, op-eds, blogs and other junk sources you mentioned have already been taken out, but if we missed any, let us know. I will check the "covertly promotes disorder" item. CorporateM (Talk) 19:17, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

It's not difficult to substantiate that Bryden is a longstanding supporter of the secessionist movement within the Somaliland region, that he is married to a woman originally from there, and that he carries a Somaliland passport (not a visa) (e.g. ). Both Somalia's and Eritrea's governments formally opposed his appointment to the Somalia and Eritrea Monitoring Group (SEMG) for a reason. At any rate, perhaps he has now renounced the separatist platform? He apparently used to support Somalia's territorial integrity in the earlier part of his career. Middayexpress (talk) 19:28, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

This is just our off-the-cuff responses, but it is difficult for us to carefully consider a comment when so many different issues are touched on at once. I need to wait for the "Ali" and "Oogle" sources to re-populate so I can look at if they are reliable. All of the media is bias, which is why we use them for facts, and not tone as much as possible. CorporateM (Talk) 19:42, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Is this referring to this?

He is married to a Somali woman from the northwestern Somaliland region

The source Midday provided says former marriage CorporateM (Talk) 20:00, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The lede should focus on Bryden, not the arms embargo. Additionally, he served as a senior analyst with the ICG from 2004 to 2006. his critics specifically accuse him of covertly abused his positions within the SEMG & ICG to promote disorder in Somalia, on the belief that this would improve the odds that Somaliland would receive international recognition as an independent country. There's also no media disputing that Bryden doesn't hold a passport from the Somaliland region (which the link above plainly states). Middayexpress (talk) 20:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Midday, I support the new addition. I trimmed a source that said it was written by a "regular contributor" but it raised an eyebrow with me because it was written in an overt op-ed style and the author's email address was not with the publication. So I am guessing it's one of those "guest contributor"-type things like Forbes does. Which we consider not reliable in most cases, unless the author can be established as an expert.

One thing that's clawing at me is the structure. Not sure what to do about the Views section that can avoid creating one large SEMG section that covers most the article. If the PR rep can find similar independent press articles that have a more favorable view of his support of the secession, I would support adding those.

I support the prior version of the lead, because it seems that issues of covert sabotage (source?) seem to be just one of the many issues regarding allegations that he was favoring Somaliland over the greater good of Somalia. For the lead, we need a sort of "catch-all" for a broad swath of accusations of bias, favoritism, etc. CorporateM (Talk) 20:47, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what link you're referring to. However, the text in the views section should and can easily be integrated as is into the article's body for chronological context. The lead captures the main accusations pertaining to Bryden, which are largely centered on the notion that he is (or maybe was) trying to advance the secessionist cause in Somaliland. There are also those pertaining to Eritrea, but these are perhaps less defining. Middayexpress (talk) 21:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good. I have consolidated it. I added a bit to the Lead as well to cover the arms embargo, as it needed some weight adjustment to be representative of the article/sources. I was also thinking the airplane debacle could be summarize a bit more concisely, but wasn't sure how to do so. I am open to seeing any independent sources from news outlets from the PR rep that may provide a different perspective on the issues, or any corrections, comments, etc. in general. We will probably need to wait for the next business day for that. CorporateM (Talk) 21:30, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Please note that Bryden now apparently works as a Director for Sahan, an independent think tank. Middayexpress (talk) 21:54, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, nice catch. We can't use LinkedIn as a source though, but an official bio somewhere should do the trick if we can find one. CorporateM (Talk) 22:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

That indeed would be best, but Sahan doesn't appear to have a website. Middayexpress (talk) 22:16, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Hiiran Online & other op-eds

Some of these sources from Hiiran especially have been contested by the PR rep and are indeed written in an overt op-ed style. Additionally, they contain "OP" in the url, which often signifies that the article is indeed an op-ed (it's unfortunate it is not more clearly labeled). The email addresses of the authors are to Hotmail and Gmail accounts rather than an email associated with the publication. However, the criticism that Bryden favored Somaliland over Somalia seems to be common even among more reliable sources, so what I have done is used them in an extremely limited fashion.

We should generally avoid adding a lot of weight to every detailed criticism of an op-ed or adding POV quotes from them, if we use them at all. CorporateM (Talk) 15:25, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Middday. You just re-insterted a large amount of highly POV material from op-eds, without responding to my comments. Do you support using the op-eds more heavily? Lets get a second opinion? CorporateM (Talk) 16:16, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the criticisms in question are not from Hiiraan Online. They are from a formal critique of the ICG's 2006 report by the Washington-based Qarshe & Tima-Ade International Center think tank , as well as a Bahrain-based Horn of Africa political specialist . Also, please note that critics charge Bryden of misusing (not just using) his positions within the SEMG and the earlier ICG in order to advance the secessionist cause in Somaliland over the interests of the rest of Somalia. That includes the TFG, Somalia's then interim government, which released a formal press statement in 2008 to that effect . Middayexpress (talk) 16:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The press release is not an adequate source, however the think-tank could be. Do you know who they are? Are they partisan? I can see if I can find the original source, as an op-ed will often have a distorted interpretation of the original.

Some of this POV language like "foreign meddling" and "he decried" I've been removing repeatedly. Stuff like "international community" needs to be more specific. Making it sound like a sign of corruption for attending events I don't think is neutral. Lets get some more eyes. CorporateM (Talk) 16:28, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The term "foreign meddling" was adapted from "foreign meddlers", which are Bryden's own words in his 1999 paper. It's also the first time I added it. The Bryden quote in full goes:

"Somalis may be forgiven if they have become wary of foreign help in putting their shattered country back together. Since the absurd colonial dismemberment of the Somali nation between five sovereign states, external involvement in Somalia has ranged from the mediocre to the disastrous. The anemic preparations by the British and Italian governments for Somali independence and statehood, the enthusiastic support of both cold war blocs in the training and armament of the small country's security services and armed forces, and the United Nation's ruinous attempts at nation-building are notable benchmarks in a long history of foreign meddlers - some of them sinister, some benign, others simply incompetent - but all of them ultimately unsuccessful."

The think tank piece is not an op-ed. It's a critique of the 2006 ICG report, published shortly after its release. As for the Somali government, its official press release is obviously a reliable source on its own objections and actions with regard to Bryden's appointment to the SEMG (WP:PRIMARY: "Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Misplaced Pages; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them."). If the objection is that the press release is stored on Wardheernews' servers then another link to it can probably instead be produced though I don't believe that's necessary. Middayexpress (talk) 16:40, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The policy over-use of primary sources violates is WEIGHT and sometimes NPOV or V. The discussion is somewhat circular at this point. I don't trust an op-ed to fairly represent the original source material, and many "think-tanks" are front groups or partisan organizations. The original report should be used rather than an op-ed - but only if we can evaluate whether the think-tank itself is reliable. One of the criteria we use for evaluating the reliability of a source is the content itself, which is overtly POV in this case. I would need more information on the think-tank and the original source. In most cases, press releases are reliable for certain facts, but not for the notability of the information or for a fair presentation of it. IMO, when a conversation degrades into an argument over policies, that's a good time to get a second opinion. Even if the source is editorialized, Misplaced Pages has a different writing style. CorporateM (Talk) 17:00, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Here we go: "Qarshe Tima-Ade International Center for Unity is an independent organization based in the United States and Canada. It lobbies for the unification of all Somali speaking people through peaceful and non-violent means and the prevention of conflict in the Horn of Africa

As I suspected, this is a lobbying group, not a think-tank, with the explicit goal to oppose those like Bryden who want to split the country up. If the opposition to his appointment was notable, it would have been picked up by secondary sources. That's a weight issue. CorporateM (Talk) 17:08, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Policies and guidelines come up in many Misplaced Pages discussions because that is ultimately what determines the website's best practices. It's true that the website has a higher standard for BLPs, and for excellent reason. But how exactly does one broach the bio of a controversial figure like Bryden without actually discussing at least some of the main issues that have shaped his career? Are you, for example, suggesting that we not mention the Somali government's press release formally objecting to his appointment to the SEMG? Another problem is that, other than incidental mentions, almost all of the pieces actually devoted to Bryden himself appear to be critical pieces (mainly in the Somali and Eritrean press i.e. his region of work). There seem to be few standalone bios on him. Middayexpress (talk) 17:31, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

If there are few good sources, than the article should be small. Yes, we should not mention the opposition to his appointment at all, unless a reliable secondary source can be found. Misplaced Pages requires that secondary sources interpret the information so we can evaluate its significance and rely on those impartial sources for our information and presentation. It is the role of the media to research primary sources and interpret that information for our consumption. I cannot assess within Misplaced Pages policy whether their opposition to his appointment is significant, whether others supported it, or whether they were politically motivated. We need an expert, independent source to interpret and provide context.

Foreign Policy Magazine is a reliable source written by an independent journalist; it's not an op-ed, not a primary source, and not from a partisan group. When criticisms exist in sources like these, we include them. Or, if a source like Foreign Policy Magazine, included comments from the lobbying group prominently, this would be an argument for Weight and a primary source may be used to get it directly from the source. CorporateM (Talk) 17:47, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The Foreign Policy piece is on the arms embargo, not Bryden per se . It only mentions him within the context of that erstwhile blockade, and is critical of his time at the SEMG at that ("But with the hiring of Canadian/Somalilander and former International Crisis Group senior analyst Matthew Bryden in 2008, (a period that coincided with the growth of piracy and al-Shabab's arrival in the north) the reports took on a bizarre and voluminous tone accusing both friend and foe of serious violations."). This is what I mean by there appear to be few if any non-incidental mentions of Bryden himself that aren't in some way critical of his activities at the SEMG/ICG. I'm surprised, though, that you're still objecting to the Somali government's press statement opposing Bryden's appointment to the SEMG. Please note that WP:NOR allows faithful reproductions of government documents ("A primary source is a first-hand account of an event. Primary sources may include newspaper articles, letters, diaries, interviews, laws, reports of government commissions, and many other types of documents."). Middayexpress (talk) 18:04, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Googling ‘Qarshe & Tima-Ade International Center’ or the ‘Qarshe-Timacadde Center’ or various other permutations suggests that it doesn’t actually exist – at least certainly not as a ‘think tank’ registered in Washington D.C. All online references to the Center track back either to that same Hiiraan article 1 or to this piece 2, also on Hiiraan, a critique by Omar Ali Haji of the writings of Professor Iqbal Jhazbhay, a South African academic currently serving as ambassador to Eritrea.

The authors of this critique are only able to cite one function that was attended by Bryden (despite the claim of ‘regular’ attendance): a conference organised by SOPRI in San Diego (not, in fact, in Los Angeles). The link to the SOPRI web page no longer works (it’s now in Russian), but it would, however, have linked to a photo showing Bryden seated at the conference next to the desk officer for Somalia from the U.S. Department of State – hardly evidence that he was attending as an activist.

There is no other indication that either Omar Ali Haji, Nura K. Ali, or the Qarshe & Tima-Ade International Center (for which there is just a gmail account given) have ever published anything else to establish a track record of credibility.

Said A. Saryan has only published a few articles, which are characterised by a stridently anti-Somaliland stance – two examples:

http://taleex.net/2012/04/28/not-the-right-time-for-talks-between-somalias-transitional-government-somaliland

http://www.wardheernews.com/Articles%202012/Feb/06_fakers_saryan.html

He is also identifies himself with the NSPU (Northern Somalis for Peace and Unity), a political/clan network that opposes Somaliland's independence. See: http://www.nspu.org/ – at the top centre of that page directly under 'Articles' is his piece ‘Who are the fakers NSPU or the Peddlers of an Expired Product (British Somaliland)?’

As for Inner City Press and Somalia Report, both are self-published. All the content on Inner City Press is produced by Matthew Russell Lee – an investigative journalist and author – and is essentially a blog. Somalia Report is also self-published, by Robert Young Pelton, a Canadian journalist and film maker. You might contend that these two are experts in the region, but SOURCE makes clear that:

”Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Take care when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so. Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.”

With regard to Pelton’s claims in the Foreign Policy article, during Bryden’s tenure the Security Council expanded the mandate of the Monitoring Group dramatically, extending it from arms embargo monitoring to cover a wide range of threats to peace and security, as well as violations of international humanitarian law. Eritrea was also added to the mandate. Hence the ‘voluminous’ tone. Pelton's characterisation of this as 'bizarre' is purely subjective – in fact the most recent SEMG report (after Bryden’s departure) is equally long. Plus levelling accusations against ‘friend and foe’ alike would suggest that the SEMG report was in fact balanced, not biased.

Pelton's allegations that Somaliland escaped criticism in the 2011 report are also inaccurate – for example:

41. Puntland officials have alleged that Atom receives support from the Somaliland administration and that some of his fighters received Somaliland salaries. In January 2011, the Puntland administration issued a statement expressing concern about what it termed “Somaliland’s growing ties to Al-Shabaab”, specifically Mohamed Sa’iid Atom.

42. The Somaliland authorities strongly deny such allegations and have called Atom a “terrorist”. But informed sources have told the Monitoring Group that Atom may have had links to certain individuals in the previous Somaliland administration, including the former Minister of Youth and Sports and the sector commander of the Somaliland armed forces in Ceerigaabo. If such support existed, there does not appear to be any evidence that it has continued under the new Somaliland administration, elected in June 2010."

And:

85. Although not responsible for instigating the Kaalshaale incident, the NSUM/SSCA leadership deliberately sought to escalate the violence and incite further inter-communal conflict. Political entrepreneurs in the Somaliland camp were also quick to portray the conflict in terms that would justify military escalation and impede reconciliation.

Similarly, the accusation that the SEMG failed to scrutinise Somaliland's armed forces is partly addressed here:

161. The principle beneficiaries of Ethiopian assistance in recent years have been the Transitional Federal Government, Puntland and Somaliland, all of which are considered to be “Somali security sector institutions” for the purposes of Security Council resolution 1772 (2007), and are therefore eligible for external assistance.

Lastly, Pelton's allegations overlook the fact that every SEMG report is the product of a team, and endorsed by consensus – hence the signatures of each team member. This is explained in the methodological section of each report. It would therefore be extremely difficult for one member of the team, even the coordinator, to introduce persistent bias into the report, especially over a period of several years. HOgilvy (talk) 18:16, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

HOgilvy, I realize (as you've stated at that the top of this page) that Bryden is your client at the Bell Pottinger public relations firm that you work at. However, it's a stretch to call both Robert Young Pelton's Somalia Report and Inner City Press self-published "blogs". They are assuredly neither. It's been established that the Qarshe & Tima-Ade International Center for Unity is a lobby group. It's apparently not something the group has tried to hide either since this affiliation is stated right there in their critique . Said A. Saryan also appears to be only mentioned in one link in connection with the NSPU , and that's on a snippet of an article on their website where he states that he is actually "an independent analyst" . The original article was published on Wardheernews . Additionally, Pelton does not suggest that Somaliland escaped criticism altogether in the SEMG report. He suggests that, unlike Puntland and other parts of the country, the Somaliland region was not made a focal point of the paper despite also having armed forces: ""This UN report seems to take an unusual interest in endorsing the success of Somaliland (where its headquarters were bombed a few years back) while ignoring the struggle of other regions to distance themselves from the Mogadishu/Nairobi UN efforts to run a dysfunctional central government. For that reason alone, it should be brought into question why Somaliland's impressive army is not one of the focal points of this report."" Middayexpress (talk) 18:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

We do allow sources from subject-matter experts, but not when those experts are working for competing political interests. I think the PR rep did good work drawing the connection regarding Said A. Saryan.

Regarding Inner City Press and Somalia Report, "self published" is intended to refer to personal blogs. Generally anything published by a professional journalist is acceptable, even if it's not a large team.

If the terms of the arms embargo was expanded, this would be important context. Do you have a source for that?

We can't accept original research regarding criticisms in the source material. However, this is a problem with using op-eds in general. The sources only tell one side of the story CorporateM (Talk) 20:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Here’s a 2010 statement from the UN Security Council announcing the expanded mandate of the Monitoring Group:

“The expanded mandate of the Monitoring Group includes oversight of the arms embargo on Eritrea and the designation of individuals subjected to a travel ban and asset freeze for violations, as set out in December 2009 by resolution 1907, which demanded that Eritrea cease its support for destabilizing elements in the region.”

With regard to primary sources, I'm not proposing their inclusion or the inclusion of original research. I'm suggesting that we look closely at them in order to make sure what has been written about them is reliable. It's about the accuracy and reliability of the secondary sources.

Regarding the Qarshe & Tima-Ade International Center, why is it that what little we can find about this lobby group all seems to lead to these two articles on Hiiraan? What else has it done? Why has its only activity to date been to critique this 2006 ICG report, after which we never hear of it again? I don't think these are unreasonable questions in trying to establish the reliability of a source. I'm still not convinced this group has ever really existed as an active organisation.

I realise the conversation on sources is moving on, but I would appreciate clarification on these points. Thanks. HOgilvy (talk) 11:14, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The source is from 2010 and his position began in 2008. Additionally, as a primary source, it needs to be interpreted by an expert, independent source, before we can use it. It has been established that Qarshe... is a lobbying group with the explicit objective of opposing Bryden's platform. I support removing any source that originates from this group, unless their criticisms are interpreted and published by a credible secondary source we can trust to be NPOV. However, when editors disagree, it can take time to work things out. CorporateM (Talk) 13:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it has not been established that the Qarshe Tima-Ade International Center is a lobbying group with the explicit objective of opposing Bryden's platform (whatever that may be). It has only been established that it is an "independent organization based in the United States and Canada", which "lobbies for the unification of all Somali speaking people through peaceful and non-violent means and the prevention of conflict in the Horn of Africa". And that's because two members from the group who authored that ICG critique themselves indicated as much . Middayexpress (talk) 13:20, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"lobbies for the unification of all Somali" is the opposite of Bryden's platform. Lobbiest groups are not reliable sources. CorporateM (Talk) 13:23, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Qarshe actually describes itself as an "independent organization". Lobbying "for the unification of all Somali speaking people" appears to be its chief activity. As a parallel, one such group that Saryan mentions, Progressio -- which, in direct opposition to Qarshe, lobbies for the recognition of Somaliland as a separate country from the rest of Somalia -- is cited here as the main "international observer" during the last presidential elections in the Somaliland region, but clearly identified as "an advocate for independence movements". Also note that much of the Somaliland media could likewise be described as lobbying organizations since in most of their articles they try and promote the fringe notion that the region is separate from the rest of Somalia. Middayexpress (talk) 13:38, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

That is a very different circumstance. Secondary sources are used, multiple POVs are included, and it's not on a BLP. According to our BLP rules: "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources...Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing." I think we are just in a tit-for-tat at this point though. It's not like we will reach an agreement, so best thing to do is get more editors involved and see where things head. CorporateM (Talk) 13:55, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The BLP policy applies to all living people mentioned on the website, not just in bios ("editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Misplaced Pages page"). So the situation is actually not that different. At any rate, please note that the only bit from Qarshe that is presently used with regard to Bryden specifically rather than vis-a-vis his ICG organization is Qarshe's view that Bryden had a direct hand in the ICG report's formulation. This doesn't seem particularly contentious since he was at the time serving as ICG Coordinator. Middayexpress (talk) 14:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Bryden

Hi Midday. Still waiting to see if Drmies does some editing, but what do you think about us each creating a version and starting an RFC? I've seen this done when two editors were disputing about the right length of the Lead. I still want to do ALOT of trimming and I know we'll just get into edit-wars, so how about we create a couple different versions and ask more editors for input. CorporateM (Talk) 23:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why any let alone a lot of trimming is necessary. Actually, I found some interesting new material on Bryden's Somaliland ties that should probably be included. Anyway, please sign your bulleted post below per WP:TALK. Middayexpress (talk) 10:54, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

So you don't want to participate in an RFC? How would you like to resolve our differences of opinion? CorporateM (Talk) 13:40, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Opinion on what exactly? Again, please name the exact sentences that you have issues with and why. Differences cannot be resolved if they aren't first identified. Middayexpress (talk) 15:41, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Here's my version I just whipped up: User:CorporateM/Bryden. It's a tight three-paragraphs and a bibliography. The few primary sources and/or op-eds are used very sparingly with very little weight.

Let me know if you want to work together on an RfC, or I can just get it started if you don't want to work together on it. CorporateM (Talk) 15:08, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

That subpage has no structure and includes irrelevant material, such as the phrase on the number of ships that were at the time reportedly attacked off Puntland's shores. In some spots, it is also written in a way that suggests something which the links themselves do not. The phrase that goes "In December 2011 he threatened a 60 Minutes camera crew headed to Puntland under the suspicion that it was carrying weapons to launch an attack on regions contested by Puntland and Somaliland" is an exmaple. It gives the erroneous impression that this is what the Foreign Policy piece (which is actually critical of Bryden) states, when in fact the FP piece states that Bryden "discovered that the two "mercenaries" were in fact a well-known 60 Minutes camera team invited to film the PMPF base" . More importantly, the subpage leaves out quite a bit of biographical information relating to Bryden. Among the ommitted material is Somaliland's status as an autonomous region in Somalia, Robert Young Pelton's and the Somalia Report's criticisms of Bryden's work with the SEMG, as well as the Somali government's objection to his appointment as SEMG Coordinator. Sharif Ahmed also said a lot more on Bryden and the SEMG than that they were simply "against peace". In any event, per WP:TALK, please point out for the first time what exact sentences in the existing text you have issues with and why. Middayexpress (talk) 16:16, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

As discussed here, I feel that the use of op-eds, press releases and other primary sources to add contentious material, especially with so much weight and detail, is a violation of our BLP policies, as well as WP:V and WP:WEIGHT. I also feel the current article has far too much detail in general and could use additional tightening. If the article is kept at all, I don't feel such a large article is needed on a BLP where few proper secondary sources exist. Additionally, it doesn't seem like discussion between us is heading in a particularly productive manner, so I'll go ahead and start an RFC so we can get a few more opinions. Very specific issues have been raised and defensive comments that don't directly address those issues were the response. CorporateM (Talk) 16:50, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok. I'll query on RS/N as to whether or not the Somali government press release is a reliable source on its own position regarding Bryden's SEMG appointment. Middayexpress (talk) 17:01, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Most press releases are reliable sources for the opinion of their author. That is a WEIGHT, BLP and NPOV issue. We don't want to pile-on every instance in which someone said something negative about him, just those that secondary sources decided were important. I tried to research who they are, but the website is down for maintenance. CorporateM (Talk) 17:23, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Another Break

Based on the Talk page comment by User:Drmies it seemed useful to try to make a clear assessment of the disputed areas. If these descriptions are not written fairly, or there are more disputed areas than I've included, please feel free to modify them. CorporateM (Talk) 20:40, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

• Using this press release from the Permanent Mission of the Somali as the only source regarding the organization contesting Bryden's appointment, the right amount of weight to add and whether it is neutrally-written. (first paragraph of the SEMG section)
• Adding a substantial amount of material from op-eds in the Hiiran Online that are authored by Qarshe Tima-Ade International Center for Unity - a lobbying organization with the opposite platform as the article-subject.
• Whether the 2011 airplane incident should be trimmed by a sentence or two to avoid excessive detail
• Also, Midday and I have both noted that there are zero sources, where Bryden is the subject of the article, which might explain why we're grasping at op-eds and primary sources to fill his article. I am still somewhat partial to nominating for deletion.

N.B. The bulleted post above is also from CorporateM. Middayexpress (talk) 16:16, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

• I'll be glad to look in some more detail today or tomorrow. Deletion--well, I'm looking for some more material. First hit in Google Books is another accusation of partiality. Here is another brief mention. And here for one of his publications, and this and this for the same one: it seems to be an article worth mentioning (it pops up in an article in the Human Rights Quarterly--you can read it if you have access to JSTOR). Testament to expertise here. Google News gives at least a half a dozen hits; many of them are from the 1990s and (thus) not accessible, but there is stuff there, no doubt. Drmies (talk) 22:45, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

That looks like a better source and provides a much more clear explanation of the alleged conflict of interest issues. Jeez, we may have found it if we were spending more time researching than arguing ;-) CorporateM (Talk) 02:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Which of the several links above is a better source than what? And how? Please be specific. The Somali government's press release on its own position on Bryden's SEMG appointment ? By the way, would you mind signing your bulleted post above so that readers know it's from you and not anyone else. Thanks, Middayexpress (talk) 13:20, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I also just noticed that Foreign Policy calls Bryden a "Canadian/Somalilander". Interesting dichotomy there . Middayexpress (talk) 13:25, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Here's a bio on Bryden from the Eri Gazette, republished from DissidentNation. Middayexpress (talk) 14:17, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Draft

Midday and I disagree on if, how and with what weight to use op-eds press releases and primary sources for controversial material on a BLP, as well as how long the article should be in general. There are sort of a lot of areas we seem to disagree, so I'm not sure of the best way to summarize.

I've proposed a 3-paragraph version of the article here. I was going to see about starting an RFC, but this article has already been mentioned on BLPN, COIN and Midday mentioned raising an inquiry on RSN, so I thought it would be better to just start a fresh string I can link to and ping a few editors so we can get additional input. I feel like Midday and I have just gotten into a bit of a tit-for-tat, so the best way forward would be to just get more eyes on the article. Nobody from BLPN has responded and I was pinged with a request to help on COIN. CorporateM (Talk) 17:31, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

1. McNeil, Donald (25 March 2002). "Lawless land". The Free Library. Farlex. Retrieved 30 August 2013.
2. "Interpeace". interpeace.org. Interpeace. Retrieved 30 August 2013.
3. "War-torn Societies Project". unrisd.org. United Nations. Retrieved 30 August 2013.
4. "Geneva Peacebuilding Platform" (PDF). gcsp.ch. Retrieved 30 August 2013.
5. "CRD Somalia". crdsomalia.org. CRD Somalia. Retrieved 30 August 2013.
6. "PDRC". pdrcsomalia.org. PDRC. Retrieved 30 August 2013.
7. "APD Somaliland". apd-somaliland.org. APD Somaliland. Retrieved 30 August 2013.

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