| Revision as of 21:00, 16 September 2013 view sourceFlyer22 Frozen (talk | contribs)365,630 edits →media/common use: Tweak/Reply.← Previous edit | Revision as of 21:04, 16 September 2013 view source Flyer22 Frozen (talk | contribs)365,630 edits →media/common use: Tweaks to my latest comment.Next edit → | ||
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| ] (]) 20:22, 16 September 2013 (UTC) | ] (]) 20:22, 16 September 2013 (UTC) | ||
| :I see that you want the paragraph tweaked. Okay, but would you at least defer to WP:Consensus and revert your edits until that text is tweaked? I would be largely repeating myself if I further emphasized why that paragraph should be in the lead. Your alteration certainly should not remain while this discussion is going |
:I see that you want the paragraph tweaked. Okay, but would you at least defer to WP:Consensus and revert your edits until that text is tweaked (proposals worked out on this talk page)? I would be largely repeating myself if I further emphasized why that paragraph should be in the lead. Your alteration certainly should not remain while this discussion is going on. Remember that you've made the Misuse of terminology section significantly even more redundant. Because what you have altered is the WP:Consensus version, you are supposed to convince us of why that material should not be in the lead or should be significantly cut down. You have not convinced me of either. After having worked out this matter several times before, it's not surprising that you would not. But as Legitimus shares your point about further emphasizing the inaccuracy of the common use definition, I am slightly convinced to oblige you on this. In the meantime, do try to take the time to better understand the WP:Lead guideline. ] (]) 21:00, 16 September 2013 (UTC) | ||
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Edit request on 18 August 2013
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See also
...
95.73.36.224 (talk) 18:36, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
- The ultimate is a redirect, I cant see what the 1st four have to do with the subject of this article, to my mind there is no connection. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 18:53, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
- Virtuous Pedophiles, which is on my WP:Watchlist, was an article. But SqueakBox made it a redirect soon after the IP's request. I don't much care if Virtuous Pedophiles is an article or not, but it should be removed from the See also section if it's going to remain a redirect. And, SqueakBox, I take it that you started back up watching this article after this discussion between us at the Age of consent reform article? Or have you always remained watching it while having stepped back from the subject on Misplaced Pages for some time? Either way, welcome back. Flyer22 (talk) 19:40, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
- I actually didnt use my watchlist for any articles for years until recently (last month or two). Pigsonthewing has afd'd Virtuous Pedophiles after another user challenged my redirect action. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 20:33, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
- Similarly, I went about two years without using a WP:Watchlist until this year (see User talk:Flyer22/Archive 11#Thank you!, and I've mentioned elsewhere on my talk page before then that I had abandoned my watchlist). And, yes, I saw that Pigsonthewing nominated that article for deletion after James Cantor contested the notability tag and redirect. Flyer22 (talk) 20:45, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Number of pedophiles among child molesters
I noticed, that the number of pedophilic offenders in Hall & Hall study is possibly misquoted. There are two citations in the study, one is Abel GG, Harlow N. The Abel and Harlow child molestation prevention study. Hall & Hall study claims 88 % of offenders are pedophiles, but it the Abel study, the number is related to number of victims molested by pedophiles. The number of pedophilic offenders is about 65 % based on the Abel study.
Does anyone have more resources? We have one study, that says 7 % identified themselves as exclusive and one study, that say 88 % (or 65 %?) of offenders are pedophiles, but I found for example claim of Dr. Hubert Van Gijseghem: "For instance, it is a fact that real pedophiles account for only 20% of sexual abusers." http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=4959361&Language=E&Mode=1 I've also seen somewhere a resource claiming it's about 50 %, but I don't remember which one and only the abstract of the cited study was freely available, which didn't contain such claim. But the numbers I've found differs significantly, so I don't think one study is enough here.
Also I think it would be good to add a note what definition of pedophilia is used, the numbers can differ based on the definition used. Lunruj (talk) 16:11, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- Similar comments were brought up at the Child sexual abuse talk page. See Talk:Child sexual abuse/Archive 8#Error in Mayo Clinic article, pedophiles account for 65% of child molesters, not 88% and Talk:Child sexual abuse/Archive 8#Personal opinion about the Mayo Clinic reference and some comments. As for definitions, we can if the sources note what their definitions are. But scholarly sources on the topic of pedophilia are usually speaking of prepubescent children, whether they define pedophilia as an exclusive or primary sexual attraction to them or not. Flyer22 (talk) 16:28, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
media/common use
The common/media (use of the term) paragraph at the beginning, belongs in the misuse (of the clinical term) section. You're just repeating yourself. Also, putting it at the start, and outside the right (misuse of clinical terminology) section, gives it some sort of factual relevance - when there is no factual relevance. It's just the misuse/incorrect use of a clinical term.
Please be careful with this. Many people with Anxiety disorders and OCD visit pages like this, to research these things (as part of their Obsessive/compulsion rituals). For such reasons, medical/clinical articles need to be clinically accurate.
Cjmooney9 (talk) 13:51, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- You are violating WP:Consensus and WP:Lead with your repeated reverts:. That paragraph has been placed third in the lead, not at the beginning. And like I've stated to you in my reverts of your edits, this article (topic in general) is not only a medical topic. The lead is supposed to sufficiently summarize the most prominent/controversial parts of the article, per WP:Lead. That paragraph is not only a summary of that section you put it in. It's a summary of different parts of the article. It's summarizing the fact that, in common usage, pedophilia often means any sexual interest in children or the act of child sexual abuse, the fact that "his common use application also extends to the sexual interest in and sexual contact with pubescent or post-pubescent minors," and the fact that "esearchers recommend that these imprecise uses be avoided because although people who commit child sexual abuse commonly exhibit the disorder, some offenders do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards for pedophilia and these standards pertain to prepubescents. Additionally, not all pedophiles actually commit such abuse." Those are important details that should be in the lead, all of it. That paragraph is tackling the topic of medical accuracy, which you are trying to deprive readers of. It is not misinforming readers, but informing them/clearing up their misconceptions. Thanks to your edit, if it were to stay (it won't), a lot of them will keep on using the term inaccurately, since (according to statistics gathered by Misplaced Pages), most of our readers don't read past the lead. Yes, a lot of our articles tackle misconceptions in the lead, especially if those misconceptions are as prominent as the misuse of the term pedophilia. But this is not simply about tackling misconceptions, as I've already pointed out. Your edit also duplicates information in the section you put it. As you are clearly a newbie (meaning your sporadic editing, not the fact that you've been editing Misplaced Pages as Cjmooney9 since 2010) who does not understand Misplaced Pages's core policies and guidelines, I suggest you read Misplaced Pages: Policies and guidelines, and learn to follow the Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle essay. Your WP:Edit warring this important material out of the lead is most unfortunate. And if you continue to edit war it out of the lead (which I've stated because someone else will revert you), that will eventually lead to you being blocked. Flyer22 (talk) 14:24, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the message. I am happy to discuss.
Firstly, I don't see any consensus on here. In fact it doesn't seem to have been discussed at all.
Secondly, I agree that this is not only a medical topic. But is a primarily clinical article. The subject does also appears as part of discussion in popular culture. But if you wish to discuss the area of media inaccuracy and misuse of the term, then please put it under a section named thus. Or create an article about it. You've decided to put the entire section, in the introduction, of a primarily clinical article. I have no idea why. This gives the implication that this opinion is also clinical. It's not. And unless either the point is clearly made within the paragraph, or it appears under it's own section, it remains ambiguous.
Thirdly, I don't think the paragraph is that clear at all. There's far too little clinical knowledge displayed here. And it's very ambiguous.
Fourthly, I did not create a misuse section. The section already existed in the article. That is my entire point. You are attempting to have the entire misuse/inaccuracy section, in the introduction. Making up more than 50% of the introduction in fact. And then it's being repeated again in the correct section. The subject should be approached in the correct section.
A small section about misuse of the term in the introduction is fine. However, you seem convinced that 50% of the entire introduction of a (primarily) clinical article, should refer to this. Again, it's a primarily clinical article.
Cjmooney9 (talk) 17:04, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Cjmooney9, you don't see discussion because it has been archived long ago after said discussions were concluded. There are pages and pages about this matter that have come and gone (see archive links at the top of this page). Second, the misuse paragraph is 1/5 the lead, not half.
- I happen to be quite familiar with patients who have the OCD subtype where they obsess about having deviant sexualities (it's called Primarily Obsessional OCD) but I am not finding it a plausible concern, nor a notably large enough population to accommodate, that we would need to remove this material from the lead completely. Indeed I fail to see why this section would affect such a person. The one matter I will give you is that the paragraph in question should more forcefully express how wrong the popular usage is, in the way Schizophrenia is often confounded with dissociative identity disorder, which it most certainly is not. Legitimus (talk) 17:56, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Cjmooney9, you can check the archives for consensus about the lead; the lead has been thoroughly worked out, and what was there prior to your removal was there for the reasons I noted above. Though consensus can change, it has not changed on this. Your sloppy, damaging edit should be reverted for the reasons I've already made clear. The entire misuse section is not in the lead. Again, read what I stated above about that paragraph summarizing parts of the article; it is not only summarizing that section. If you read the article, you should see that. That paragraph is completely in compliance with WP:Lead. You call it repeating, when that is exactly what providing an adequate lead is about -- summarizing what is stated lower in the article. It is not a word-for-word repeat; it's a summary, just like the parts you chose not to remove or move are summaries. Per WP:Content fork, we will not be creating a separate article just to go over those aspects. Those aspects are not presented ambiguously; the paragraph makes perfectly clear that what it is talking about is common use and misuse of the term pedophilia and that this is not how experts on the topic define pedophilia. It also talks about the very important fact that child molestation does not necessarily equate to pedophilia and that pedophilia does not necessarily equate to child molestation. There additionally is not "far too little clinical knowledge displayed here" in this article. What is in this article, which is also a social topic, among other topics (see the WP:WikiProject tags on the top of the talk page), is most (the significant majority) of the clinical knowledge known about pedophilia. And, as the third paragraph, and not even the biggest paragraph, what you moved certainly did not " up more than 50% of the introduction." Before your removal, and after what you removed is restored, this is how the lead reads: The first two parts of the introduction go over the medical definitions. The third part goes over the common use definition/common misconceptions. The fourth part goes over what has been known about pedophilia and what is currently known about it; it essentially summarizes the topic as a whole. All very important paragraphs for the lead. I can only consider your take/response on this matter to be due to your inexperience with the way Misplaced Pages is supposed to work, and due to your inexperience with the emphasis that experts put on not misusing the term pedophilia and not necessarily confusing pedophilia with child molestation. Flyer22 (talk) 18:09, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello all - firstly, please don't let my rather sloppy edit make everyone desperate to stick to the status quo. If something is odd and ambiguous, it's just odd and ambiguous. I've read it through, twice again, now, and I still don't follow it.
I do not have inexperience in clinical psychology. I'm probably considered an expert. And I still don't follow the paragraph!
And the problem I have is not the emphasis of that paedophilia is not child abuse (this is an important point), but the lack of emphasis that common/media use of the term paedophilia is not actual clinical, medical, scientific paedophila.
Reading the paragraph, it's large amounts of information, and quotes, about media common use, but all it actually says in response, to me, is that people who commit child offenses aren't always paedophiles. There's a tiny bit at the end with the disclaimer that "these standards pertain to prepubescents" but it's very hard to understand. And not clear at all.
I agree with the second comment. If you're going to talk about common use/media use, then please make it clear whose this opinion is, and that it's not clinical, scientific or medical. And make it clear how wrong it is, clinically.
Answering your question about POCD, it's about the 2nd most common form of OCD. Huge numbers of people are affected. They come to sites like this as part of their obsession/compulsion ritual. Reading about it (and realizing they're not)makes them feel better. It's imperative that what they do read, is accurate, and clear. I realize this is possibly seen as a niche, but I'd have thought the whole point of these articles is they're accurate and clear.
thanks Cjmooney9 (talk) 20:22, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- I see that you want the paragraph tweaked. Okay, but would you at least defer to WP:Consensus and revert your edits until that text is tweaked (proposals worked out on this talk page)? I would be largely repeating myself if I further emphasized why that paragraph should be in the lead. Your alteration certainly should not remain while this discussion is going on. Remember that you've made the Misuse of terminology section significantly even more redundant. Because what you have altered is the WP:Consensus version, you are supposed to convince us of why that material should not be in the lead or should be significantly cut down. You have not convinced me of either. After having worked out this matter several times before, it's not surprising that you would not. But as Legitimus shares your point about further emphasizing the inaccuracy of the common use definition, I am slightly convinced to oblige you on this. In the meantime, do try to take the time to better understand the WP:Lead guideline. Flyer22 (talk) 21:00, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
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