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A charge of wikihounding**

Lukeno94 (talk · contribs) feels they're being hounded by Jaggee (talk · contribs). This all started with an ANI thread, now archived at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive824, "URGENT: potential serious copyright policy violation". Jaggee is a new editor who noted a possible problem in an article Luke had been working on; a somewhat lengthy thread with some animosities was closed without action toward either editor. As a result, Jaggee made various comments on their user page (now changed, but see this version). It is noteworthy that they took the supposed copyvio to ANI, claiming that's what WP:DCV suggested they do--but read Jaggee's talk page, "A second welcome to Misplaced Pages", where I remarked that this is the last thing it suggests, not the first. The only article edits Jaggee has made were to that particular article, Allard J2X-C-- Luke's work, and passed as a GA by Resolute. They they went on to comment on that article's talk page and on a related thread at WP:RSN ("Car racing websites"), pertaining to a DYK nomination by Luke. They made no other edits besides on my talk page and a few others, nothing in article space.

Further unpleasantries are found on my talk page, where you may find Luke being a bit brusque, accusing Jaggee of being a sock (that evidence does not yet need to be hashed out here, in my opinion). But essentially, it seems to me that Jaggee indeed has no other interest as of yet besides Luke's work, and that fits our definition of hounding, a type of harassment:

Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Misplaced Pages.

Both LadyofShalott and I suggested that each find their separate corners in which to edit, so to speak, advice that Jaggee did not follow given their edits to RSN, for instance, and what I am asking for here is confirmation that this means that Jaggee should find another corner, not one where Luke is already editing. This shouldn't be a difficult thing to do given the large number of corners available. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 18:19, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• I'm perfectly happy to have myself and Jaggee kept separate, as I've said publicly a few times. Maybe that way I'll be able to return to editing in peace (or be able to take a break in peace, equally) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:26, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• (ec) I affirm my prior advice, which as Drmies points out has not been heeded. Luke seems to want to stay away from Jaggee, but the reverse is not true. Perhaps a formal interaction ban is what is needed. LadyofShalott 18:27, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• I had previously given Jaggee similar advice, likewise not taken. Perhaps indeed it needs to be set up as an editing restriction. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:12, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Luke feels they're the one being hounded?!

Luke on Jaggee at Talk:Allard_J2X-C yesterday: "Wrong, and since you're only here to disrupt this article, you've yet again failed to look into anything. " (and more of the same in the past).

I don't know Jaggee from a hole in the road. But I do know that we have AGF. They're also a new editor. Even if they have acted entirely wrongly and excessively over the very minor off-wiki copyvio issue in this article, they have acted reasonably over that issue. Their actions could be mistaken, over-reactions and mis-placed, but while there is the slightest belief that they are a new editor trying to find their way through the impenetrable forest of WP:ALLCAPS, then we have to give them leeway to get it right or wrong, as best they can. We DO NOT leap on them and accuse them of being bad faith socks, troll and Luke-taunters. Even if they are, we have a strong policy that we act to editors as being genuine, until it's demonstrated beyond doubt that they aren't. Yes, this lets us be exploited by the real trolls from time to time. It's also overall a key means for us to improve access for genuine new editors (which I still do believe Jaggee to be).

Jaggee: please find some motor-racing articles to work on that are some distance from Luke. I'm sure this will improve the editing experience for both of you.

Luke: please lay off Jaggee and act as if they're genuine. I can't ask you to believe this, but please act towards them as you would towards any GF editor. If they're not, lots of other people will spot it as well, so don't worry about it.

Andy Dingley (talk) 19:15, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• I refuse to act like I'm blind, deaf and dumb; which is how I would have to act to assume Jaggee was new. Everything they have done screams of a returning editor, and things well beyond your own involvement have furthered that case. Don't forget that other users have expressed their own doubts, or, in the case of User:Beyond My Ken, completely agreeing with my analysis of the situation. If Jaggee is a new editor, then I'm Bill Clinton. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Also, yes, I am the one being hounded. Everywhere they've visited has been either somewhere I've already contributed in, or something directly related to something I've been involved in. I haven't followed them anywhere. To claim otherwise is ludicrous. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:26, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Andy, you are essentially asking for the same thing I'm proposing here. That initial ANI thread, pshaw, not the biggest deal. It's the rest of it, the recent edits, that brought me here. If it hadn't been for those Luke wouldn't have had any reason to say anything but as it is, I think they are right to feel as if someone is breathing down their neck. Drmies (talk) 19:37, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

This is a very one-sided account of my, so far, short career as a registered Misplaced Pages editor.

On my first day, I spotted a potential copyright policy violation in Allard J2X-C. My first edit, a nervous and hesitant attempt, to alert those responsible to what I thought was a serious problem in that article, was totally reverted - as "Unconstructive and unhelpful."! Determined to right the wrong, and after reading through numerous paragraphs of dense policy text, I stumbled across the suggestion that, if the "contributor has been previously clearly warned of copyright infringement but persisted", as was clearly the case here, the contributor should be "reported for administrator attention to the administrators' incidents noticeboard" - which was exactly what I therefore did - with my second edit.

One well informed administrator, ignoring the pleas from those ignorant of copyright principles and without even a working knowledge of the applicable Misplaced Pages policy, did take the initiative - and swiftly purged the article of the dodgy material, thus vindicating my action. Note that Lukeno94 continued his fight to keep it though.

What followed was an astonishing series of personal attacks against me, including a tirade of irreverent bile peppered with puerile profanities from Lukeno94. I won't quote them here, but here are links to a few of them: , , , .

Upon viewing further results of a search of links to mulsannescorner.com, I came across discussions about another articles (Template:Did you know nominations/Lavaggi LS1 and ) which also involved Lukeno94. Having seen the comments about the ureliability of the website, I added it to this discussion. That addition was swiftly pounced on and bad-mindely removed by Lukeno94. I added it back the next day, convinced I was right, but was again swiftly reverted by Lukeno94 (note the inflammatory summary). Another editor restored my point, vindicating my action.

Lukeno94 seems to be paranoid that I am "hounding" him. I AM NOT, I don't know (or care to know) him from Adam. What I am doing is highlighting poor use of poor references, nothing more. And I am beginning to regret signing up now. But this storm in a tea cup has aroused suspicions of cover-ups and back-scratching too, and I am not going to be intimidated it. Lukeno94 seems to be here to boost his ego, not to create great, policy compliant, articles, and I think he needs a serious slap on the wrist for reacting so badly when his infallibility is challenged. Jaggee (talk) 20:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

If you stay away from each other, and agree to report any issues like the previous copyright issue to an uninvolved administrator, we can put this to bed pretty quickly. Nick (talk) 20:30, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

My only interest, so far, is the use of the mulsannescorner.com website as a reference, whether Lukeno is involved with it, or not. Jaggee (talk) 20:34, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Plus, I'll happily contribute via an intermediary - if you can name one or tell me where to find one. Jaggee (talk) 20:46, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Jaggee, if I have to put together a comprehensive report of how you are clearly a returning user here just to abuse me, then I will do so. Until then, you can drop the lies like the one about how you came across the DYK nomination; you didn't edit for four days, and yet magically cropped up again to appear there. Just like you've lied to several admins; claiming you want no further part in this and would disengage. If you want me to take you apart piece by piece, then I can put together a case that will make it obvious that you are not legitimate. I have an idea of a couple of people who you could be, but that doesn't actually matter. I never claimed to be infallible; in fact, at the very beginning, I stated that had you actually come to talk to me with the issue, then there would've been no problem. Instead, you didn't, and you've made it ever more apparent that your claim to be a new user is a flat-out lie. And I'm not even the one who initially used the term "hounding". "contributor has been previously clearly warned of copyright infringement but persisted" is a flat out lie as well; I received no warning, and in no way can a template in an article count as a warning; but then you know that already. Just one more example of your lies. I've made thousands of good contributions here; you can justifiably claim one, so who is the egotistical one, acting as if they know better than everyone else? Is it myself, who has admitted to mistakes, or is it the "new" user who acts like they know policy inside-out and has only ever edited in things involving me? I wonder.
• And claiming that to be your only interest is a lie. Claiming that I have some involvement in the website is beyond a joke. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:41, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

That is nothing more than additional unnecessary, and to be ignored, intimidation. And no, you can't convince us that I am accusing you of being involved with that website, just of being involved with some of the articles that have used it. Calm down - stand back and look at look at my modest contributions again - then review your (over)reactions. Perhaps you do need a break from this. Jaggee (talk) 20:56, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I think both of you need to stay away from each other as much as possible. While Luke is obviously frustrated by the fact that Jaggee, currently a single-purpose account, is stalking him (which can be verified by a quick look at the latter's contribs), Luke has also been rough towards Jaggee as evidenced by his comments regarding the latter. Epicgenius (talk) 04:35, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• I'd be perfectly happy for that to happen (particularly when I'm not dangerously overtired, like I was yesterday). I have no problem with genuine editors bringing up issues in things I've done; but I strongly object to this SPA. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 12:04, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

@Jaggee: - either disengage and edit in other areas, or you will be blocked as a disruptive single purpose account. Your smug, patronising tone towards Luke is not welcome here and is unnecessary. I'd suggest giving you a week to demonstrate you're happy to edit constructively without following Luke around or editing the same content (although I'm going to stop short of a full topic ban since we don't really know your editing interests). If we don't see any evidence you're capable of normal editing, I'd propose we indefinitely block your account.

The issue you raised has been dealt with and resolved, administrators are aware of what has happened and Luke will undoubtedly take more care in future not to link to a potential copyright violating content, so there's no need for further action. If you do have any other issues you wish to report in connection with Luke, I'm happy to handle them as an uninvolved administrator. Nick (talk) 12:25, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

That sounds like nothing more than gratuitous victim blaming. This is not a "single purpose account", in your sense anyway. This is an account that, after spotting, and reporting, a violation, has been blamed, victimised, vilified and dragged through the streets. And for those reasons alone, I have not had a chance to spread my wings, yet, and now you seem to be seriously suggesting they be clipped, and an artificial restriction applied, because another editor cannot control his own temper and behave civilly towards someone who has criticised his work here.

Btw, thanks for the offer to handle the issues with Lukeno - perhaps you will look at the other unresolved issues that I have already raised. Jaggee (talk) 22:32, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• We've had plenty of people contribute here saying that Jaggee should disengage from me; can someone wrap this up with some kind of binding solution? I really don't care if the ban is one way or two way; I just want to be able to contribute effectively in peace, or actually take a break. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:30, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
  • It's probable that Nick's warning above is about the best you're going to get at the moment - but you've now got an uninvolved admin keeping an eye on his editing, which should help. BMK, Grouchy Realist (talk) 21:38, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Proposal

Propose interaction ban between Jaggee (talk · contribs) and Lukeno94 (talk · contribs) (listed alphabetically) to expire 30 days three months after imposition.

The purpose of an interaction ban is to stop a conflict between two or more editors that cannot be otherwise resolved from getting out of hand and disrupting the work of others. Although the editors are generally allowed to edit the same pages or discussions as long as they avoid each other, they are not allowed to interact with each other in any way. For example, if editor X is banned from interacting with editor Y, editor X is not permitted to:

• edit editor Y's user and user talk space;
• reply to editor Y in discussions;
• make reference to or comment on editor Y anywhere on Misplaced Pages, whether directly or indirectly;
• undo editor Y's edits to any page (whether by use of the revert function or by other means).

• Support as proposer. As a general rule, I don't think ibans are the best tool in the wiki toolbox -- hence the suggested expiration date -- but I think one might be useful in this situation. NE Ent 21:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC) (amended 14:50, 12 January 2014 (UTC))
• Support interaction ban, but make it longer (probably three months initially, I wouldn't entirely be adverse to an indefinite one), and obviously clarify that this means Jaggee needs to not snoop around my edits and attempt to create more drama, not that it just means they cannot contact me, or directly edit an article/article's talk page that I have already edited, or have written. Obviously, the same would happen in reverse. Anything to remove potential loopholes that they could use to carry on the abuse that has genuinely been making my life a misery for the last few days, and has taken out all of the enjoyment I had editing. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Time period adjusted. Oppose any modification of standard iban terms. NE Ent 22:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• A few more have voted since the 3-fold increase, so "adjusted" time again to the next order of magnitude - as there is very clearly an appetite for revenge here. Jaggee (talk) 09:51, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not proposing any modification, I'm proposing a clarification. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:41, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose as that would be pandering to the wish of the bullies. I found fault, and am being vilified as a direct result. The main aggressor here would, in effect, be protected against further similar, vindicated, scrutiny. Jaggee (talk) 22:17, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• You found one thing that was a grey area, and have hounded me ever since, trying to make out as if I am the biggest sinner on the planet/project. And that's disregarding anything regarding the true nature of your identity. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:38, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

That's bollocks, and you know it. Shame on you for behaving so sanctimoniously and playing to the gallery the way that you are. Jaggee (talk) 22:46, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Well, what else have you done? Pointed out that someone else was unsure about the reliability of a source, which was something I was already aware of, and that source is on a list of reliable sources for the Motorsport WikiProject? Those are literally the only two things you have done, that aren't purely hounding me. That's not "playing to the gallery", that's the facts, sunshine. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:52, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

It's not what else I have done - it's that I have not done most of what you claim I've done. Yet many here seen prepared to swallow your apparently intentionally misleading account without question. And it is the clear clamour for blood here that you are playing to, with your ever more deceitful contributions. Jaggee (talk) 23:01, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Supprt - speaking as someone who a few days ago told them to find separate corners of this very large website in which to edit. LadyofShalott 22:50, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support - @Luke: I believe the standard interpretation of an interactive ban will cover your concerns. BMK, Grouchy Realist (talk) 02:36, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support Jaggee is clearly the aggressor in this case; Luke's frustration and occasional bluntness is understandable. Jaggee's combative refusal to accept any fault at all - his recent changes to his user page make clear that he thinks he is being baited and bullied by the community - are a bit much even for a new user. The community ought to think about penalties should the interaction ban be violated, as a deterrent. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:51, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I still see this as just as much about bullying by Luke as I do about any hounding by Jaggee. If such an interaction ban were introduced, then it would first of all exclude Jaggee from motorsport, an area that's obviously of great interest to both of them. That's an excessive restriction on such a flimsy accusation. Secondly, I just don't trust Luke to act with a reasonable collegiate approach to Jaggee under such a restriction. It's all too easy for such a ban to be used as a very one-sided future excuse to drag Jaggee back to ANI on the slightest pretext, blowing that up into "Already banned user disrespected the state of WP by abusing his ban conditions", the crime of lèse majesté that is one of the few things WP ever does act upon. Such an action is unlikely to work against an established editor like Luke, but it's a very common way for new editors to be driven off the project. Just look at Spmdr (talk · contribs) who was hounded off for disagreeing with Luke over the Sunbeam Tiger article. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:49, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Yawn, change the record. No-one was hounded off at the Sunbeam Tiger article, and I wasn't the only one being highly sceptical of the claims made by this user. In fact, I wasn't even doing any hounding at all, so you can cut that bullshit claim out right now; most of my comments were made to you, and I reverted a grand total of once. Thanks for reminding me exactly why you're holding a grudge against me, though! Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:31, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• And I am so guilty of hounding Spmdr that my name appears a grand total of 0 times on their talk page, whilst the other editor disputing their sources, and who was rather more active in reverting their edits, has 10 mentions (including one comment by Eric). So you're as bad as telling the truth as Jaggee is... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:34, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• It would not exclude Jaggee from any topic area. As there seems to be a misunderstanding of the terms of a iban, I've copy-pasted the applicable text from the policy to the top of the thread. NE Ent 14:50, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• The problem is, as the wording stands, it would still allow Jaggee to come and manipulate articles I have written, and I would then be unable to remove the changes if they were detrimental (like adding in maintenance tags that have been resolved - I couldn't remove those, and would have to get a third-party involved), and this would worsen the existing situation, in some ways. This is why the user should be restricted from editing any article (but be free to edit the talk page) which I've had a heavy involvement in, and the reverse would be true as well. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:54, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• As is often the case, the "letter of the law" hasn't quite caught up to actual practice. There have been several instances where an editor has followed another editor's contributions to various articles where the first editor had never worked before, and, without actually deleting or changing the second editor's contributions, has edited the article. This behavior has then been found to be a violation of the IBAN, as an indirect form of WP:WIKIHOUNDING. It's like having a 150-foot order of protection, and the person shows up and stands exactly 151 feet away over and over again. It's not a violation of the order, and it may not be something that the law can deal with easily, but we're not a legal system and we can make - and have made - the determination that such behavior is a violation of the purpose of the ban. BMK: Grouchy Realist (talk) 17:59, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• I guess that'll do then. I would also like Andy to stop spreading lies, but that's his prerogative for now - at least I've stated the truth in public about that situation (it's a long-term grudge that he seems to hold). Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:24, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Luke, please back off. I don't think your continued comments are helping any of this either. LadyofShalott 22:29, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

He has reverted to type. Anyone who takes the trouble to look-up the history to this case against me will see that his belligerent response to my naive first edit was the root cause of all this. He came over all indignant since, but it was all a front I'm sure. He is not able to handle criticism civilly and is thus not cut-out for this type of work where close cooperation is necessary. Jaggee (talk) 22:45, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Jaggee. Seriously, you thought that was an invitation to get in another dig? Both. Of. You. Need. To. Stop. Acting. Like. Children. LadyofShalott 22:59, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• This is less than I proposed, I guess, but I will support this at a minimum. Drmies (talk) 15:12, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
• Looks like there's consensus for this, can we have this wrapped up please? (at the very least, this post will stop it from archiving) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:00, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

• I absolutely disagree. The vote for a 30-day/3-month penalty might have achieved majority support, but there is no consensus at all that the offence itself had actually been committed. I explained the course of events that led to me visiting the pages in question, and haven't seen any evidence or argument, let alone consensus to support the alternative (paranoid) interpretation of Wikihounding. Without an offence having been committed it is absurd to suggest that any penalty, even if it have 100% support, should be applied. Jaggee (talk) 19:48, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

• ^^ A response like that is a fairly good sign of why these sanctions are called for. A textbook example of WP:NOTGETTINGIT if I ever did see one. I second the motion for a swift close and imposition of the community sanctions. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:05, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

• So where is all this "hounding"? Rather than "not getting it", this still looks more like paranoia by Luke. We should not go this far, on this little evidence, for so new an editor. All I've seen so far is some clumsy handling of what was actually a valid IP rights issue, and not even one directed particularly at Luke. That's square in the middle of AGF.

The worst I've seen from Jaggee so far was his comment just above, as noted by LadyofShalott (and I agree completely with her comment). However even that is still a long way short of iBan-worthy hounding. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:34, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

• Which is why you !voted against the proposal. However, the clear consensus among the entirety of the !voters was to put the IBAN into effect. Jaggee (and you) can certainly argue that that consensus is not justified, but what Jaggee did was to deny there was a consensus at all, and that is simply patently false. There is a clear consensus, and an uninvolved admin should really close the thread and put the IBAN into effect, since there's been no additional !voting for a while now, just repeat commentary from the same people. BMK: Grouchy Realist (talk) 22:28, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

• I see a majority call for the iBan, but I still don't see consensus that Jaggee committed substantial hounding to justify it. Where is it? His edit history is still tiny overall. Overall, this looks unedifying like a bandwagon of "Just block 'em all, let Jimbo sort 'em out" and we're supposed to be better than this. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:23, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

• The only "consensus" to be found is about whether to impose on IBAN or not. That clearly exists. I'm not sure why you're looking for a consensus about underlying issues when the discussion (in this section) wasn't focused on that. This is not an ArbCom case, where every action needs to have a finding behind it, this is a community discussion, a much less rigid process, on whether an IBAN will benefit the project. Clearly they found that. The reasons for people !voting the way they did may well be varied (Bill may think it's because Jaggee has misbehaved, Hattie because Luke has misbehaved, and Xander because both have misbehaved), but there is no requirement that there be a consensus on the reason for the IBAN, just consensus that the IBAN would be helpful. BMK: Grouchy Realist (talk) 13:31, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

• A vote for a ban for a ban's sake - despite there being no evidence of any wrongdoing - is that what you mean? Jaggee (talk) 18:32, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I should note that Jaggee is once again trying to stir up controversy where there is none, by deliberately misrepresenting things and not doing any proper checking, on the Lavaggi LS1 talk page. Yet more evidence for why this user needs to be prohibited from interfering with me; this time there wasn't any case. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:55, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

• I don't recognise your description of my contributions as all I have done recently is ask for clarification of unsourced engine information on the talkpage of a racing car article - here. I think you are misrepresenting me - again, and I wish I knew why. Jaggee (talk) 19:12, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

• You did not ask for clarification; you claimed that sources were "conflicting" with information on the article. One bit was already sourced elsewhere, which you completely ignored, and the other bit was easily verifiable had you done a Google search; policy is that something must be verifiable, not necessarily verified, and this was EASILY verifiable. A constructive user, if they were that upset about one missing reference, would've done research to see if what was in the article was accurate, and added in a reference. You did not do that, and you made a false claim or two in the process. Yey for you. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:17, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

• There you go again - I made NO false claims. I suppose you are banking on some of the huge quantities of mud you are throwing sticking. Why are you acting like this - do you behave this way with all new users? It's like a trial by fire. Jaggee (talk) 19:46, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

• "There seems to be conflicting information in the article and sources about the engines used." Verbatim quote of what you wrote, which is clearly incorrect. One of the engines was already directly cited in the infobox, the other was cited to a ref that was a little vaguer, but was not "conflicting"; the only LMP1 engine AER built at this time was the P32 (although I have found that some of our articles are giving the wrong versions of that engine). Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:38, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

• And there is still not a single edit from this user that hasn't been directly linked to the "dispute" involving me either... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:02, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, support, as the bulk of Jaggee's edits are related to Lukeno94's edits. The WikiStalk report shows six unique pages where these users' edits overlap. Interestingly, Jaggee only has edited eight unique pages since registration. The only non-overlaps where Jaggee has edited are at User:Jaggee and Talk:Lavaggi LS1. Epicgenius (talk) 02:28, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

@Epicgenius, perhaps there's something wrong with the WikiStalk tool because it shows similar results for me in relation to you too. I think it shows stronger evidence that Lukeno is stalking me anyway, because on 4 of the 6 pages you mention, his edits followed mine, rather than mine his. Or perhaps it's the interpretation of the results that is faulty. Jaggee (talk) 08:34, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

@Jaggee: It isn't a one-way interaction ban. It will prevent Luke from commenting about you or talking/interacting with you, as well. Anyway, now that I see the WikiStalk report between you and me, I also see that you've made some edits to other pages recently. Epicgenius (talk) 14:38, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• Jaggee, how can you remotely claim that I am stalking you? You've edited Allard J2X-C, Talk:Allard J2X-C, Talk:Lavaggi LS1 - all pages I wrote, or the talk page of pages I wrote, and are therefore on my watchlist, you've edited ANI/RSN threads where I've already been involved one way or another (I posted before you in the RSN thread), and I first edited User:Drmies' talkpage on the 5th of May, 2013, as you can see from ; a page I have edited 32 times, so I guess we can clearly see your bullshit lies for exactly what they are, and as further proof that you are WP:NOTHERE to do anything other than hound me, troll me, and misrepresent/flat out lie about anything I'm involved in. Absolutely ludicrous claims from you. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:02, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• And beyond that, you've edited User:Yngvadottir's talk page, directly in regards to this "issue", you've edited User:Beyond My Ken's talk page with regards to comments he made about this issue, and you've edited your own User and talk page; using the User page either as a platform for your lies, or as trolling - and that's been pointed out by various editors in this thread alone, so hardly evidence of me doing any "stalking". Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:08, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I would encourage those interested to take a look at recent edits around Talk:Lavaggi LS1. I see Luke's attitude there as far from the ideal, yet it's being reported here as if Jaggee was the one entirely at fault.

I'd also note that we're talking about a new editor with edits to only two articles: maybe they're both created by Luke, but then someone had to create them. All I see here is two editors with a common interest in motorsport, not evidence of stalking or hounding. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:50, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• We're not talking about a new editor, we're talking about a new account, and that is obvious to most people other than you, it seems. My attitude may be "far from the ideal", but you try having a brand-new account following you around and flat-out lying about multiple things. I cannot fathom how you are still able to defend an account whose entire purpose so far has been to shit-stir on things I have been involved in; there are literally no edits from this user that are not directly attributable to either the Allard J2X-C "debate", or the Lavaggi LS1 "debate", and that is not paranoia, that is an unavoidable truth based solely on their editing history. Unless this user is you, I strongly encourage you to actually look properly, and not let your dislike of me blind you. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:37, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• "how you are still able to defend an account" - AGF.

This blew up out of nothing. An editor/account appeared and made a reasonable series of edits (maybe not correct, but reasonable) that you objected to. Much ink was wasted on various talk pages. When they moved to another article and raised similar issues (again, maybe not correct, but reasonable), you objected to them again. I think you're being paranoid, and seeing socks under the bed.

I agree, the shit-stirring since is concerning. Whether this is an editor who's actually interested in the project, or who just likes farming the old drama llamas, isn't clear. Best thing Jaggee could do right now would be to do some valuable expansion work on a motor racing article that is a long way from you. I'd still prefer to see a voluntary distancing rather than a formal iBan. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:33, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• WP:Assume good faith is not a suicide pact - and any AGF that could potentially have been there at the start should be well out of the window now, in the face of incontrovertible evidence. I would happily keep my distance voluntarily, but that is impossible when Jaggee comes after me, which is what it has been consistently. Note how that for the four days that I didn't edit, Jaggee didn't either, and yet they returned the same day I did. In line with their general actions, that isn't coincidence; those were four days in which they could've easily destroyed any of my claims of them being an SPA by editing something that I hadn't. They did not do that, and still haven't done so... (and by now, it is probably too late to make the "look, I can edit elsewhere, I was legit all along" claim) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:56, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - Luke does have somewhat of an attitude problem, but in his defence, he is young. Once he enters his twenties and gains some more maturity, he will likely become less brash and arrogant. As for Jaggee, he is new here, and AGF should come into play. A community enforced interaction ban is hardly fair to a new user whole really only needs some guidance and a little more seasoning. They should be asked to voluntarily avoid each other. Failing that, a strong suggestion that Jaggee read, or re-read the policies here would seem in order, along with a warning to Luke to cool it. - WOLFchild 06:13, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• Jaggee has been asked to voluntarily avoid me by several admins, as evidenced by the discussion above. They have failed to do so, by constantly wandering back into articles I've written, and therefore I am forced to respond. AGF might seem viable, until you look at the timing of the account's appearance, where and what it appeared in, and the fact that when I took a four-day break, they stopped editing altogether, only to return on the same day I did. Assume good faith is not a suicide pact, and there is simply no explanation for the account's actions than that it belongs to someone with a grudge, who created the account to hound me - as I said, the timing of its creation, the fact it hasn't edited anything that isn't to do with me, and the fact that it didn't edit for the same period that I didn't. As someone who has never had any sanctions of any kind, I didn't take the request to sort out an interaction ban lightly. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:41, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• This is in danger of being archived, and still no action, despite the consensus being clear. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:03, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

If anything, the fact that Jaggee has continued Wikistalking Luke, literally logging in only after Luke logged in and then editing the same articles, only adds more evidence to the pile. Wearing kiddie gloves with a new user who refuses to get the point can only go so far. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:11, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Support interaction ban and strong admin warning - Wikihounding cannot be tolerated. Any violation of the ban should result in an indef block. I see community concern and consensus here, and call on an admin to step up. Jusdafax 06:32, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Request for closure

Fully understanding that a community ban discussion is not a matter of simply counting !votes, at this time there are 8 support !votes and 2 oppose !votes, and the discussion regarding a mutual IBAN between Jaggee and Lukeno94 has been ongoing for 9 days. Many community ban discussions have been closed with fewer overall votes, and less time of discussion, so I believe that this one qualifies for a close. Can we please have an uninvolved admin take a look and close the discussion? Thanks. BMK: Grouchy Realist (talk) 13:31, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

A Quest For Knowledge's "uninvolved administrator" warning should probably be removed from the case decision.

Sorry to bother about this, but I think something still has to be fixed regarding User:A Quest For Knowledge (notified on talk page) and the formal warning of someone as "an uninvolved administrator".

This (non-Administrator) editor used an Administrator warning. It contains the phrasing This notice is given by an uninvolved administrator and will be logged on the case decision). It looks like it did just that and logged User:Nomoskedasticity onto the case decision at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change. Here's the diff.

If I hadn't noticed that it formally and erroneously added that user to the list of individuals "warned" by administrators, I wouldn't have brought it up. I don't think the user meant to go so far as to add it to the case decision, but maybe you agree it should be removed from the case decision as an error. Thanks. __ E L A Q U E A T E 05:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

The template is quite poorly worded, but WP:General sanctions specifically allows anyone to issue warnings, and for such warnings to appropriately logged. It is a good example why using templates for warnings is often problematic, but not indicative of improper logging of such notifications. There has been recent discussion about this, but this is the current state. Cheers. Collect (talk) 06:17, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

• Does anyone have the patience to sort what is behind the "warning/notification"? My quick look suggests that two editors !voted in opposite directions at Talk:James Delingpole#Edit protect (and reached different conclusions at WP:BLPN#James Delingpole), and one of them dropped that irritating blurb on the other's talk, and rather triumphantly made an officious log (diff). That's a pretty outrageous loophole that gives one player a way to irritate and poke an opposing player. I know it's being thrashed out at WT:AC/DSR, but the myth that it's merely a "notice" and not a CIVIL way to say get fucked should not be encouraged. Johnuniq (talk) 06:50, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

WP:General sanctions differentiates between community sanctions, and sanctions resulting from an Arbcom case. Arbcom sanctions, which this would fall under, are supposed to be logged by an uninvolved admin. The proposal at WT:AC/DSR is for ArbCom sanctions to be logged by anyone, but so far this has not yet been adopted. —Neotarf (talk) 07:26, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

These warnings/loggings are being used too often to gain the upper hand in disputes. I agree with Johnuniq's and Neotarf's interpretation. Let's let admins take care of these types of warnings. - MrX 12:41, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Removed warning from Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change and notified clerks Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Clerks#non_admin_logging_DS NE Ent 13:01, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

• At first look, and as someone completely uninvolved, it appears this "administrator warning" is being used as a chilling effect tactic. When I see that the defenders are hardly neutral on this overall subject, I suggest remedies and possible sanctions should be discussed at this time. This should not be tolerated. As for a page that lists "warnings" I confess to astonishment that such exists, much less appears to be being gamed. Jusdafax 13:21, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
• The warning should probably be removed. It isn't enforceable anyway, except by administrators. Epicgenius (talk) 15:44, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Point being that Nomoskedasticity understands the situation and has pushed back, whereas other less experienced editors could well be intimidated by it. Which raises the question whether this type of incident has occurred previously. Jusdafax 21:09, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

The template was actually changed to no longer be a warning some time back and is now simply a notification. Unfortunately, the template was also changed some time back to include the term "uninvolved administrator" by default, which was previously absent from the boilerplate warning. Now a non-admin has to add a specific parameter to present it as a regular warning from a non-admin. Many non-admins issue notifications and this is useful since it means editors new to the process or to Misplaced Pages in general can be made aware more quickly and, if they are disruptive, makes it simpler when there is a need for restrictions since those require an editor to be aware of the discretionary sanctions regime in the topic area beforehand. I think the problem here is that the boilerplate warning says "uninvolved administrator" by default when that should be the optional parameter. That would be as absurd as a vandalism or 3RR warning template including that term by default. AQFK simply used a template without realizing it had been changed.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:42, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Seems a fair summation. Collect (talk) 00:49, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Whether the template was changed to "no longer be a warning" or not, AQFN explicitly stated it was meant to be both notification and warning. Having read a bit more of the case file, it is interesting that AQFN is attempting to warn people into proper behavior on a Climate Change related topic using a case where he was topic-banned from Climate Change articles for disruptive battle-grounding. And I still think it's arguably an inappropriate way to end a noticeboard discussion by a deeply involved editor. If it's supposed to be "just a notice" then it should only be allowed to be formally logged where it's "just a notice" and not something possibly point-making. __ E L A Q U E A T E 02:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

All this amounts to is keeping a record of who is aware of the discretionary sanctions in a topic area. There is no official finding of misconduct, but just one editor informing another of certain special rules regarding a topic and making sure others are aware said editor has been so informed. Non-admins warn other non-admins all the time about alleged misconduct. In this case such things get logged.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:56, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

It's obvious what happened in this case—one editor used the notice/log to be as obnoxious as possible to another editor during a discussion where the two editors disagreed. There was not the slightest reason to issue the notice other than it is possible to do so. The case reported here demonstrates very bad behavior, and is not similar to the standard procedure whereby an editor should be warned if they may be wandering into trouble by aggressive editing or vigorous commenting. Johnuniq (talk) 11:30, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

That would be a concern about AQFK's conduct, but not specifically an issue with the notice. I have made some changes that should be sufficient to address concerns regarding the warning.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:44, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

But why are you warning this user at all? Your "changes" were that you over-ruled an admin, NE Ent, and re-added the user to the case decision? I don't see how this helps. __ E L A Q U E A T E 21:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

NE Ent is not an admin. My change did not overrule him either as I did not restore a diff to AQFK's warning, but added a diff of Nomo's acknowledgment that he is aware of the discretionary sanctions. This is useful as it insures that, if Nomo does do something wrong in the topic area, that there will be no question of whether Nomo is or is not aware of the sanctions regime. Such awareness is a prerequisite for action just as warnings for 3RR or vandalism are generally necessary before action can be taken.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:56, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

But if the user was previously made aware that the sanctions existed and had already acknowledged this, then for what practical purpose are you ne-notifying them? Informing people more than once or informing people that clearly know the sanctions are in place seems like it could be interpreted as some kind of undue harassment. In this case, the user already knew of the issue from AQFK's notice, this discussion here, and now you seem to be trying to "only notify" them again. There's still no evidence the user required any sort of notification in the first place. How many notifications are enough? __ E L A Q U E A T E 00:02, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

No "re-notifying" occurred. I simply tried to note in the log that Nomo said he is aware of the sanctions. Should we say that non-admins can notify editors and add it to the log and that other non-admins can come along and edit-war it out if they think this is unwarranted then we are inviting feuds over arbitration pages where some editors object to the notification. If we say that non-admins are no longer permitted to notify editors and add it to the log, well, this won't change the need for notifications, but it may encourage non-admins to try and get admins to notify editors for them so it can be logged. You may even have editors dragged to AE for the sole purpose of getting an official notification. I think it is far simpler and less disruptive to allow non-admins to make notifications and add to the logs. The real problem here was with "uninvolved administrator" being the default term in the template, which is really a problem of the template having been changed unilaterally some time back. My estimation is that changing the template to make the non-admin version the default version is the easiest way to avoid further problems of this nature.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:16, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

This is getting even more obnoxious. AQFN left that notification as a hostile act, as some above have recognised. It was not merited. And so TDA's attempt to make it kosher are not welcome. There is no problem with my editing that calls for a log of a notification of this sort. Neither AQFN nor TDA are uninvolved in this topic area and I suggest that they both step back. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:30, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm, I don't recall ever editing any article about climate change or even raising an opinion about the editing in that topic area. Notifications can be issued by anyone and then logged. This is not the sole domain of an admin. Looking over the dispute that sparked this, I do not think it was at all unwarranted for you to be notified. Seems a lot of bickering is going on recently regarding some climate change articles and further enforcement requests are likely. For the record, I do not think this is at all appropriate. AQFK made a mistake when he posted that template without knowing the default version now said "uninvolved administrator" and was not trying to pretend to be anything. Had he known, I have no doubt he would have made it the non-admin version. Your insistence on making this accusation by changing the section heading from a more neutral version is not compliant with policy regarding use of your user talk.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 15:01, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Templates, and template wording, are not policy. Policy is policy, and the current DS policy clearly specifies warnings are to be issued and logged by admins. NE Ent 23:42, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Except, the policy does not say that only admins can give notifications. Non-admins have been giving notifications and logging those notifications for some time without any suggestion that it was against policy, because the policy says naught on the matter. Arbitrators have similarly not suggested that there is anything stating only admins can give notifications, despite having many opportunities to do say when the issue is raised explicitly.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Please provide diff of an example.NE Ent 23:52, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Just look through the log of notifications on ARBPIA, where you will see numerous involved non-admins and at least one involved admin giving notifications to editors who appear in the topic area. Hell, Nomo made a similar mistake to AQFK in that topic area when giving out this notification. A notification should, generally speaking, only be about informing someone of the existence of sanctions and that can reasonably be handled by anyone. Of course, any editor can "warn" an editor to stop doing something, but those are not going to be logged unless they are also notifications.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:45, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Is there some past history concerning TDA and Nomoskedasticity? When TDA excused AQFK's abuse of the sanctions notification system to poke an opponent I thought it was just the standard misunderstanding, but the comment above shows that something more is involved. In that comment, TDA points to a user who has made a total of 16 edits, five of which were to change the country shown in the infobox at Ariel University (like several IPs, the user prefers Israel, whereas the article states that the university is in the Palestinian territories). That is exactly the situation for which the discretionary sanctions notification is intended, and Nomoskedasticity gave a very reasonable ARBPIA notification (diff) after the fifth change of the location. Referring to that notification as a "similar mistake" is an extreme form of misunderstanding—is it grasping-at-straws to justify a hasty and incorrect initial comment here, or is it an attempt to poke an opponent from some prior dispute? Johnuniq (talk) 09:37, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Since TDA hasn't responded, I'll give my own answer. I'm not aware of any past clashes with TDA, so I suspect it's grasping at straws. As far as I'm concerned, the situation has been resolved satisfactorily: the original "notification" by AQFN was indeed a chilling tactic and was appropriately removed from the log. There's still the broader question of what to do when editors behave this way, but I'm pleased with the feedback AQFN (and TDA) have gotten here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:03, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Not sure if you noticed, but Nomo used a version of the notification, an outdated one, that said "this notice is only effective if given by an uninvolved administrator and logged here" and that clearly gives the impression that the person giving the notice is an uninvolved administrator. If you are suggesting it is fine to accidentally claim you're an admin when the user is a nobody, then I suppose we just have a different view of things. Had AQFK given the standard non-admin warning I suspect this whole dispute would not have happened as Nomo's behavior does seem to have warranted a notification.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 15:11, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

You're the only person here who is taking that view. The others recognise things for what they were: AQFK was trying to poke an opponent, "chilling effect", etc. I don't think you're persuading anyone that my editing is equivalent to that of Ekomik (talk · contribs); as for the notification I left for him/her, I recognised my mistake and suggested it needed to be confirmed by an admin. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:35, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

My only point is that non-admins issue notifications often without it being an issue and there is no reason why it should be an issue in itself. The default message of "uninvolved administrator" was added by an arbitrator who, all the same, added a non-admin parameter. I think a notice was warranted, even from AQFK, but since no one could argue that you are not aware of the discretionary sanctions now it makes little difference whether the log stays or not.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:50, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

It is very much an issue when editors use these things as weapons in a dispute. I doubt AQFK will do that again (given the reactions posted here). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:06, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

And if it had only been a neutrally-given "notification", I probably wouldn't have brought it up in the first place. It fails that description in two places. When I opened this thread (years ago?) I gave AQFN the benefit of the doubt that a bot added the logging on the case file as both "warned and notified". Now I know it was manually added, and not unintended, and it wasn't part of using the wrong template, and that giving formal warnings (beyond notifications) goes beyond what involved non-admins are expected to be able to do. AQFN can not claim to have inadequate knowledge of what he was doing by logging it as both warning and notification, considering he would be familiar with what a warning was, citing the ArbCom case that sanctioned him with a topic ban (and which was only lifted when he said he wasn't interested in getting involved in Climate Change content disputes). People aren't mistaken to think it was stated as more than the neutral notification you say is allowed, beyond the use of the template. It seems resolved now, but I wanted to be clear that my initial concern was in what was being logged, and how involved the editor was who was doing the logging, and not purely about how it was communicated to the person formally "warned". A notification should, generally speaking, only be about informing someone of the existence of sanctions. If AQFN hadn't gone beyond that by specifically and repeatedly labeling it both a warning and a notification, or if he wasn't in the middle of a debate he was expressly involved in , this discussion could have been avoided. __ E L A Q U E A T E 19:39, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Though this discussion has been useful, I remain concerned, and am clearly not alone. I believe the record shows AQFN was arguably abusive of existing process in what appears to be an effort to discourage edits on a topic in which they are involved, or formerly involved, since AQFN states on their talk page that they have recently unwatchlisted the article, in my view presumably as a result of various statements questioning AQFN's warnings. Unless there is further comment, and in lieu of administrator action seeing a number of days have gone by, I suggest an uninvolved admin close this with a brief summary for future reference if need be, and I submit that further warnings of this type from this editor or other involved editors should be taken as worthy of consideration of sanctions. Jusdafax 06:20, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Name calling

Mrm7171 called me a troll four separate times over two days on the health psychology talk when disputing my edits. He also lodged that epithet at me when commenting on his additions to the health psychology page. I want him to stop. Iss246 (talk) 15:10, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Below are quotes from the health psychology talk page.

You have REVERTED 6 timers now within a 24 hour period. Stop edit warring. I am going to report you. Provide rock solid reiable sources next time and stop personalizing. You seem to me to be a troll, who pretendes to be a professor of everything. I doubt you actually have qualifications in any field of p-sychology based on your poor editing. Leave professional articles that you obviously have little knowledge of alone and concentrate on your OHP club instead! Or provide RELIABLE SOURCES please. Thanks.Mrm7171 (talk) 21:32, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

All iss246 does on Misplaced Pages is try to insert falsely this unregulated small club called OHP and try to align witgh proper regulated professions in psychology. You are nothing but a 'troll' iss246.

Unwarranted accusation. I am bringing you up on charges. Iss246 (talk) 01:24, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Iss246 I doubt if you are actually an academic iss246. hat we know about you is that you are an internet troll. You post 'OHP' wherever you can in any legitimate area of the psychology profession you can. I do hold a Doctorate in psychology for your information. But that is irrelevant. Who cares! Its irrelevant. If you were a scholar of any sort you would realise that topics in science like the 2 areas you claim are only ohp research are actually researched and applied by many different fields and published in many different journals. No, I think iss246, you are an untrained 'OHP practitioner" who wanted a career change and did not want to train in the many years it would take to train to be a professional Health Psychologist or professional Occupational Psychologist.Mrm7171 (talk) 03:49, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

It is pretty clear iss246. If you were a scholar of any sort you would realise that topics in science like the 2 areas you claim are only ohp research are actually researched and applied by many different fields and published in many different journals. Stop trolling. Lifecoaching may be more your cup of tea. That, like an 'OHP practitioner' also allows any career changer like yourself to become, without any actual training.Mrm7171 (talk) 04:09, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I have not reviewed the edits in article-space but did review the Talk page. iss246 appears to show appropriate conduct, while Mrm's behavior is essentially harassment and personal attacks. Saying that iss refuses to discuss the issue, then pouncing on him with personal attacks when he does, is a sign of baiting. Mrm shows a strong habit of focusing on the editor, rather than the article, in a generally disparaging manner.

In my view, we should have a zero tolerance policy for this kind of behavior, which is not only disruptive to Misplaced Pages, but negatively effects retention. If Mrm's accusation of stalking is true however, he should provide examples of other articles where iss246 has allegedly followed him.

BTW - whether an editor is an expert in a topic does not effect their credibility as a contributor, though it sometimes helps, and sometimes inhibits, good editing. CorporateM (Talk) 15:45, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

• With all due respect the history between iss246 and myself goes back almost a year. You looked at a tiny, final snippet where iss246 had just reported this, and then tailored his responses for a moment. I have been subjected to masses of verbal abuse by iss246 over many months and can provide 100,200 examples. Instead I hope we can refrain from personal abuse, and focus solely on editing from here on. Stop personalizing and just focus on making Misplaced Pages's articles better for the general community, that is readers. Please don't judge me on a tiny fragment. I for one think we can all move on, and cease completely any further childish name calling, rather than me go back over almost a years worth of records and provide over 100 hard core examples of iss246's personal abuse toward me. Apologies to administrator for the placement of my replies on this page.Mrm7171 (talk) 23:00, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) I agree with CorporateM. Mrm7171 seems to think s/he knows more about psychology than anyone else and thus behaves as though no one else is qualified to make changes to psychology-related articles (check out some of his/her earliest edit summaries...in all caps, mind you). S/he also shows egregious ownership issues of psychology articles, and s/he has even been blocked for this kind of behavior before. Maybe a topic ban is in order?

BTW, Iss246, you never informed Mrm7171 of this discussion (as is required), so I did just that. Erpert 18:55, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry about not informing Mrm7171. I should have asked a third party. I don't like going on his talk page. And I don't like him going on mine. Iss246 (talk) 02:35, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

My responses to iss246 yesterday were after months and months of long term abuse by iss246. I can collect at least 100 examples. For months iss246 has posted on his tall page, filthy, baseless lies and defamation, calling me a troll, thinking he knows best about everything, he is a professor. Therefore his opinion was all that mattered. I had enough. I am human. No-one can tolerate that type of long term abuse. Below is the section of filth still boldly pasted on his talk page, and left there for months.

On iss246's talk page he has this filth still posted. Nice guy!Mrm7171 (talk) 01:06, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

"Here is what we know about you Mrm7171. You are an internet troll. You have a bachelor's degree. If you earned a degree, I don't think the degree came with much distinction. You don't have a Ph.D. You didn't complete a post-doc in anything. You like i/o psychology perhaps because you took a course in it. You think you are smart but you lack understanding. I write that you lack understanding because you selectively ignore what I write. For example, I write that Tom earned a Ph.D. in behavioral pharma yet you ignore that fact although the fact is in Tom's page on LinkedIn. Or you assert I don't like Tom because I objected to your using a reference found in a blog. That does not translate to dislike. But you did the translating (better to call it mistranslating; intentional mistranslating). Good thing you don't work as a translate or at the U.N., then you would really ball things up. You are not that smart." courtesy of iss246

Wow, thank you so much iss246, for your kind words. For the record. No, I am not a troll. I also do hold a Doctorate in Psychology and almost 30 years experience. But really, who cares! Seriously I don't care. Nor is that relevant. In fact, unlike many others I have known I don't even use my Dr title anytime. The only reason I mention this now, on my own talk page, is that iss246 refuses to delete his defamatory, baseless, childish comments about me above still posted on your talk page. So, self defence I guess.Mrm7171 (talk) 01:06, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Mrm7171 did not put my angry response into context. My response came after he placed on my talk page walls and walls of unnecessary text that included needling recommendations to act "calmly." Mrm7171 did not mention what I wrote at the end of my angry response, which was to I ask him to never write on my talk page again. Iss246 (talk) 21:16, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

In response, I know no more, or no less, than other editors. I have made excellent edits on Misplaced Pages. In many articles. I have been subjected to masses of abuse from iss246 over months and can provide literally 100 examples of abuse toward me such as the section posted on his talk page. Countless times iss246 talks on and on and on about how he is a professor, he knows best, etc etc etc...I can provide 100 examples. I had enough. I also hold a Doctorate in psychology but who cares!. Holding Doctorate or being an expert is irrelevant on Misplaced Pages. Mrm7171 (talk) 21:37, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I could not care less about my doctorate. Never have. Never will. Who care's! It is irrelevant to Misplaced Pages. Everyone's opinion is equal. Don't use it in my title, where most others do. I know no more, no less than anyone else on the psychology topics. No individual's opinion matters any more or any less.Mrm7171 (talk) 23:19, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

No, that is not true. I was blocked because when I first joined Misplaced Pages, I broke the 3 revert rule, once. I then learnt from that block. Being blocked once should not be brought up again and again to abuse an editor? Surely?

On the Occupational health psychology page here is what was written in October 2013 and only recently revisited the article. Admittedly, after re-reading iss246's posting of his filthy, abusive defamation which remained on his talk page, my reaction to him personally came out a couple of days ago, and called him some names too. I realised straight away and apologised for my childish replies in self defence to iss246's long term abuse! We are all human. We all have a limit. No-oner stepped in and stopped iss246 from his abuse. Everyone saw his abuse. It has remained on his talk page for months.Mrm7171 (talk) 23:19, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Note to any administrator. I have stepped right back here. I have not reverted anyone's edits today and would not 'blindly revert' anyway, without discussing first. Iss246 is a very experienced editor, who clearly knows what three-revert rule (3RR) violations are. In fact, I posted a clear warning directly above, so there was absolutely no doubt. Further no experienced editors like Bilby have a thing to say about it, despite me asking for advice where to post this. Today, within a 12 hour period iss246 has engaged in continual blatant edit warring. Iss246 has reverted at least 7 of my good faith edits without a care for Misplaced Pages's strict policy applying to all editors not to cross the (3RR) line. I will not engage in edit warring, or be dragged into a continual edit war. I realize my own editing will also be assessed by an administrator. So be it. I accept whatever an administrator of Misplaced Pages decides to do here.Mrm7171 (talk) 06:31, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Why in the world did you post all this in the middle of my comment? That really confuses things. And if you can really "provide literally 100 examples of abuse toward ", well, let's see some examples. Erpert 01:51, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, what a mess. I can certainly provide a lot of references. Just added one from today at the base of the page. If administrator wants examples give a day or two and I will collate them in a coherent manner. Thank you.Mrm7171 (talk) 04:01, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not quite sure what to do. Frankly, after looking over various talk pages I'm inclined to throw a block in the direction of MRM if only out of irritation over the caps, the bold, the odd insertions of comments, the aggressiveness, and that there's supposed to be a Ph.D. attached to all that yelling in somewhat sub-par language. Would an IBAN be helpful? I'd warn MRM for personal attacks and all that, but Iss has also called the other party a troll. I can't judge whether MRM's edit history warrants such an appellation, but the comments pertaining to Iss are certainly trollish. Drmies (talk) 03:22, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Apologies for bolding. And using capitals the other day. Won't do that again. Just read this message.Did not know the policy on bolding either. Sincere apologies.Mrm7171 (talk) 03:50, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I am at my wits end after being abused and attacked and accused by iss246 of everything under the sun. As a human, after a year of abuse, I got angry the other day. I am only human. An example just today is iss246 accusing me of not reading an article, that isi am lying. It has been endless. Here is his comments from only today.....

""Mrm7171 claimed to have read the article but never used the quote until I introduced the quote. This makes me suspect what he knows about the Everly article comes strictly from my writing about it.".... courtesy of iss246 only today!

I did not lie. I read the article. Why does iss246 have to accuse and insinuate and attack constantly. Then one day, I snap. And give hime some back, I'm going to be slapped with a barring or whatever? That would seem grossly unfairMrm7171 (talk) 03:50, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Off iss246 goes again on the base of the Talk:Health psychology all day. I cannot stop him attacking me, accusing me of bad faith. Twice today. I remain silent as I very often have. Cannot an administrator look iss246 personalizing, attacking, accusing constantly. Can he not just focus on editing? Can no-one stop him from doing this. Here is another example. I remain silent. As I mostly do, under his relentless attacks and personalizing instead of focusing on editing only. Please refer to today's accusations and personalizing, by iss246. Again apologies for 'cracking under this relentless personalization' and accusations of bad faith by iss246. I normally try and ignore his attacks and remain silent as Misplaced Pages recommends but this is ridiculous. We are all human. That is the only reason why I cracked the other day. Iss246 also avoids answering direct questions regarding actual editing. Talk:Health psychologyMrm7171 (talk) 05:48, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Given this is on the administrator's page here, can an administrator please go to the Talk:Health psychology and read all of the last day's rants by iss246. I just re-readit and feel like I need to respond to his false, baseless accusations. I refrain. I keep silent. What do you recommend? All day, iss246 has personalized, accused, attacked. Not focused on editing. I stay silent. What do you recommend. Can you warn him please. Can you ask him at the very least to stop this relentless, personalization and focus only on editing. Please!Mrm7171 (talk) 06:09, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

• Well, sure, gladly. I did. And what I see is a rebuttal on their part of accusations made by you. You say "I stay silent"--no, you don't, you're here again, doing a passive-aggressive dance in which you play the victim. I urge other admins to look into this matter to see if more drastic measures are necessary: I am going to block for the latest talk page disruptions.

  I note, for instance, that Mrm is the one playing the personal card on that article talk page--quite inappropriate, with headings such as "Fake references cited by iss246". They started the latest section, "Please stop accusing me of lying or not reading a journal article iss246!". One can't fault Iss for responding. The clincher, perhaps, is this edit here--the old "there you go again", with "Stop the abuse and personalizing please" as an edit summary. I've had enough of this: blocked temporarily for personal attacks, article talk page abuse, and general disruption. Drmies (talk) 19:32, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

This has been an issue for about 8 months. Iss246 hasn't always responded well, but Mrm7171 was confrontational from the start, and often seems to be goading Iss246 and other editors. I had hoped that things would calm down, but they seem to have fired up again after a break. Hopefully something short of an indef block will help, but intervention is needed. - Bilby (talk) 05:32, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

In addition to personal attacks Mrm7171 keeps starting long and unending debates over minor points on talk pages that continue even after several editors disagree. Points that seem to be settled will be brought up again weeks or months later. I hope the intervention will help. Psyc12 (talk) 14:08, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Like Bilby, I've spent several months at Talk:Occupational health psychology (and now Talk:Health psychology) trying to resolve this dispute, basically since Mrm7171's appearance there. Speaking in my capacity as a volunteer editor who has been dealing with him since around the time of his first block, Mrm7171 appears to have a WP:COMPETENCE problem. This problem is IMO not likely to be solved. I believe that Mrm7171 would sincerely like to be more effective, but he comes across as an intransigent POV pusher with odd beliefs. For example, he makes comments about professional psychology associations being "clubs" with a "hidden agenda". He keeps starting, and then dropping, these weird discussions about whether "OHP" is the same thing as "occupational health psychology". He complains frequently that it is possible to be a practitioner of occupational health psychology without first being a licensed clinical psychologist (this is not unique to OHP; for example, professors of psychology are legally called "psychologists" even if they are not licensed, and all sorts of nurses, allied health workers, and even medical doctors are professionally involved in psychology without being licensed psychologists).

Like Bilby, I'd prefer that this was handled without an indef, although with each encounter, I'm less confident that this is possible, and I would not be surprised if other people deemed it necessary. An WP:IBAN would need to involve more than Iss246, as Mrm7171 has significantly directed his anti-OHP comments towards at least one other editor. I think that at topic ban from anything related to psychology might work. A TBAN for anything smaller than psych (e.g., health-related psych) might be too difficult to understand the boundaries. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:45, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing has been remarkably patient through months of difficult interaction with Mrm7171. I'm sorry to say that Mrm7171's contributions have been (with rare exceptions) nonconstructive and disruptive. Not only that, his ideas and his style of discussion are so odd that I feel that he will probably not be able to change sufficiently to become a useful editor, at least within the areas of his distinctively strange ideas. I would support a indefinite ban, preventing him from editing all psychology subjects. Richard Keatinge (talk) 20:35, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't think anyone (myself included) noticed that Drmies blocked Mrm7171 three days ago. (NAC) Erpert 07:40, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I did. The block is for two weeks. I think it would be more efficient to talk about what should happen when the block expires than to come back and go through this all again in eleven days. we need a long-term solution, not a two-week break followed by a return to disruption. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:33, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Never do today what you can put off indefinitely. Two weeks of real life is a great antidote to wikistress, and AGF is that when Mrm7171 returns with a fresh perspective they'll be able to contribute effectively. Support reclosing the thread. NE Ent 22:44, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I think you may be overly optimistic there - this isn't an issue that has flared suddenly, so much as a long-term pattern that is going to need to be addressed. But I'm uncomfortable with trying to tackle this while Mrm7171 is not able to take part. Thus I'm not opposed to letting things sit and see if we need to come back later, with the hope that we won't have to. - Bilby (talk) 11:37, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

• Is there a reason why this was reopened? Erpert 06:40, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

The issue hadn't been resolved. Or at least, we need to confirm that it has been. - Bilby (talk) 06:59, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

The issue, which is a long-term inability to function in this environment, has not really been resolved. It's only been postponed. I do agree with Bilby that it feels a bit unfair to have these kinds of discussion when the affected person is only able to post to his user talk page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:58, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

User:CensoredScribe overcategorizing

I've come across CensoredScribe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who has been creating all sorts of silly, unnecessary categories, largely centered around fiction. For example, they created Category:Alternative reproduction in fiction, Category:Fictional racists, Category:Brain transplant in fiction, and so on. They've been warned about this before, but they've created quite a few categories since then. Just thought I'd bring this up here to see if anyone had any thoughts. — HelloAnnyong 03:34, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

There were some comments about this editor here, including comments from me. Georgewilliamherbert said he was going to follow up with that editor but it doesn't appear George did. I have my general concerns about the compatibility between what that editor does and what we're supposed to be doing as Misplaced Pages editors, the aims just don't quite seem to meet often enough. Zad68 03:39, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I was cleaning up after this editor earlier today when he added a bunch of articles to strange and ill-defined categories, or to categories that are just plain wrong. I was thinking about perhaps proposing a topic ban for category-related edits, but I would certainly like to hear from CensoredScribe before suggesting this. The exchange here about the subject does not inspire me with confidence however.--Atlan (talk) 03:50, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Right... I'm not sure preventing only category-related edits will really fix the problem I am suspecting here. Can anybody review this editor's history and point to a clear area of net-positive contributions? Zad68 04:00, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, I was thinking of a topic ban over a block because CensoredScribe is obviously well-meaning. But going by their talk page, there are definitely more problems than just the category one. Perhaps a case of WP:CIR.--Atlan (talk) 04:09, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that link is what I was thinking of when I was writing my previous comment. Zad68 04:17, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Was the warning justified? No. Move on. Lugnuts 10:02, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

CensoredScribe over the last month has had their edits to add categories reverted by over a dozen editors for the zealous overcategorization. However it's not just overcategorization, it's placing original research categories into the articles as well. Some are of dubious thought diff, some original reseach diff2, and some just plain left field diff3. They have created multiple categories, gone on a large categorization spree then after other editors have removed some of the categories from articles subsequently blanked the categories and had them deleted. Some have also gone to deletion review. See deleted contribs. The users edits are not malicious and are certainly not vandalism they're being conducted in good faith. However they are causing a lot of work for other editors to clean up and a minor bit of disruption. Not all their edits are bad either, some are useful and reasonable such as the category Body swapping in fiction, which is a good one to have (not sure we have something similar so it's useful.) Canterbury Tail talk 12:49, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I would like to add that I also found this editor's contributions troublesome. It is all unsourced and WP:OR at best. Categories need to be supported in the articles at the very least. I question the utility of many of them. His work is sloppy enough that many of us have had to jump in and clean up after him. That is not constructive editing. It should be collegial, in that he learns from his mistakes and cooperates to improve articles. How many warnings and speedy deletions does he need here before action is taken? Elizium23 (talk) 20:03, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

My edits to non medical science articles are statistically largely acceptable; such as on the environmental effects section of plastic and the bioremediation of assorted heavy metals; hydrocarbons and black carbon. Before I added categories my edits to mythological subjects were also rarely reverted; like the relics section on Gautama Buddha. With the exception of this recent categorization issue; my only other problems were with not using secondary source medical articles; which I did end up using correctly; making lasting contributions to HIV AIDS explaining the experience of aids patients in China and noted that Bonobos are immune to SIV.

Most of my categorizations are correct; excepting Blade Runner and Starwars (mostly the prequels). I suppose the idea replicants are alive enough to be considered slaves is not explicity shown nor that replicants not being allowed on earth would be akin to immigrtation in fiction. For Starwars I accurately listed Bobba Fett as an aviator like Luke and all the other characters; and listed Darth Vader as a racing driver similar to Captain Falcon do to the Podracing scene; I also listed him as a child soldier because he fought in a military action destroying the droid control ship in the battle of Naboo. He didn’t invent anything though; because he didn’t have a laboratory or machine new parts like Iron Man or use the force to mold the materials with his mind or anything; he just put pod racer junk parts together as a mechanic. Jedi and Sith are now just a category of swordsmen because there are so many of them. I think all the force users count as super soldiers and soldiers depending on their power, they seem to possess at least a few force powers with super reflexes and jumping as a standard even for a barely force trained Jedi like Luke.

Flying cars in fiction, aliens zoos in fiction, martial arts tournament anime and manga and tournament anime and manga are all easily definable and have numerous examples. I forgot to add the Jetsons as having flying cars; those cars being able to collapse into briefcases makes them fall under the same category as the Transformers. I did not add flying cars to Starwars because I stopped editing Starwars pages in protest of the EUs imminent demise and the prequels being rightfully hated. Fictional telekenetics is a good category I’ve added including many Jedi and Sith but also others like Jean Grey.

Speaking of the Matrix. I still think Neo has telekenesis because he is listed as having super speed and strength which he does not have outside of the virtual world of the Matrix. The abilities possessed in the Matrix should count as the characters spend most of their lives and the film inside of the Matrix. This would also apply to movies where most of the film is a dream or where a lot of super powers are shown in the afterlife.

I realized alternative reproduction was far too vague; as is artificial person. Artificial uterus in fiction is a well defined and commonly occurring category however; though in retrospect ecto womb would be a better name for the category as the wombs in brave new world are harvested from cows. The other examples included in artificial reproduction in fiction would have better categorized as Homunculus in fiction; and Synthetic biology in fiction.

Mythological rapists and rape victims are valid categories and the discussion is ongoing. The xenomorph from alien has been stated by Dan O'Bannon to be a rapist. There are legend of coyote having a penis long enough to go across a river. There is also a raven legend like this. My edits to various articles in the mythology project have been constructive. Mostly it is adding references from lives of the necromancers; however I also added a section to Inanna from the page for dominatrix.

The amount of female sword fighters in video games anime manga and fantasy horror and science fiction is enough the category should be renamed. I supported that the category be renamed in the discussion like with the gender neutral firefighter and police officer articles. I listed Picard and Word as being swordsmen because they spend a significant amount of screen time practicing those skills and do use them. I also added the page mythological swordfighters. For goddesses and gods depicted wielding a sword or who have legends of them wielding swords.

Fictional multidimensional will be a small category; however it has a narrow definition which excludes simply being from another dimension and walking through a portal as it is limited only to characters who posses shapes impossible in three dimensions. The Cheshire caat being non Euclidian is mentioned on the cats section on the page for alice in wonderland so at the very least a reference needed tag should be added to that paragraph.

The fictional characters with nuclear abilities and fictional characters with gravity abilities are going to be small categories; unlike characters with electrical abilities. Really the biggest mistake I think I’ve made recently in terms of original research was listing the Kryptonians as having gravity abilities; which is only ever briefly suggested by Lex Luthor. I could provide a reference to Hulk being a living nuclear weapon that absorbs universal atomic energy. Godzilla is referred to as having a nuclear reactor for a heart in Godzilla vs Destoroyah, and Godzilla going through nuclear meltdown is treated as a serious threat. Being a living nuclear reactor should count as having nuclear abilities. Also Kaiser Ghidorah has gravity beams which is a gravity power; and as other TARDIS models have functioning chameleon circuits; should be considered a shape shifter. The TARDIS can also control a black hole which would make it count as well. Captain Atom has nuclear abilities; just as Gravity and Graviton have gravity abilities. I believe the TARDIS is also telepathic so that should be noted.

I am surprised however that fictional characters with radiation absorption or resistance isn’t a category. This category would include the Kryptonians and the Hulks; as well as Starfire and the super mutants and ghouls in Fallout. Most but not all of the Godzilla Kaiju show this ability on screen. The mainstream continuity Spiderman exhibits radiation resistance during his fight with Morlun; I’m less sure of the fantastic four; in the future I would ask others on the fantastic four talk page whether their gaining their powers would count as this; or if there are later storylines where they survive large amounts of radiation.

I categorized several characters incorrectly as invisible more than any other category; the issue was whether invisibility through technology counted. I removed the Predator and Terry Mcginnis from this category, however Motoko Kusanagi from Ghost in the shell is still listed despite her invisibility being technology based; most of her being a technological prosthesis.

Fictional Yogis is a valid category which currently includes only Dhalsim from street fighter.

I added wookies as a race as slaves; however if this is correct most non human races in Starwars should be listed as slaves. The only other fictional slave I added was Jessie Pinkman; which no one is debating. It would also be appropriate to have mythological slaves and slave owners.

Brain transplant in fiction and body swapping in fiction are being discussed; they are both good ideas and it’s important to distinguish brain transplant from mind swapping. Body hopping seems to be the best way to describe Quantum leap; though that show in particular is difficult to define correctly as it’s inconsistent as to whether Sam has the abilities of his own body or of the person he leapt into. My other positive contributions which have remained for several weeks are fairly miscellaneous. It’s specifically characters not episodes or storylines that most of the reversions are occurring.

I have however made several valid contributions to fictional characters. I’ve made positive contributions in the past and in the future in other subjects; if allowed to edit again will bring more things up for discussion on the talk pages. It’s been a lack of references not poor references which has been the problem.

Breach of copyright in a locked article

Our BlackLight Power article is currently locked, and I have just realised that it contains material copy-pasted from elsewhere - a clear breach of copyright. The paragraph beginning "In 2012 after studying the BLP process..." is copied from and needs immediate removal. I've as yet not checked to see if there are further such problems with the material recently added by User:Blippy, but clearly this needs doing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:48, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

• It was Blippy, a few dozen revisions back. So anything copyvioed after that, you can remove and some bored admin will take care of it later without having to check too many boxes. Drmies (talk) 05:09, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks both of you. I hadn't looked at Blippy's talk page last night when I locked the article, but I can see a lot of warnings there about edit-warring (which he was doing) and other problems. I'm not convinced that this editor can edit constructively. Dougweller (talk) 05:55, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm... character assassination anyone?  :-) Please bring forth your evidence of my edit warring on the BLP article. Maybe an explanation of the lock might be in order too? In any case, the phrase "In 2012 after studying", nor anything similar, exists in the cited source. I am unable to view the offending edits, so perhaps someone would be kind enough to provide the diffs. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 07:26, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and a little bit of defending myself - I just looked at my own talk page. There is 1 warning and 1 block for edit warring, both back in 2009 - hardly something accurately described as "a lot of warnings there about edit-warring". Just how impartial are you Dougweller? Blippy (talk) 07:29, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Blippy (talk · contribs) is being quite disruptive IMHO, and the aggressive anti-NPOV anti-consensus edits on Rupert Sheldrake e.g. and pathetic attempts to ignore WP:REDFLAG claims. The rudeness is perhaps a little understandable on a Wiki. However, I am not convinced that Blippy (talk · contribs) is basically WP:COMPETENT to edit science or WP:FRINGE-related articles because of his apparently bizarre and very entrenched views on the subject. Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:35, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

BBB perhaps you might have bothered to contribute on the article talk page rather than popping up out of the blue and sniping here? I don't quite see how your attempt to change the topic is strictly relevant, but I'm sure reasonable readers will notice the lack of responses to the core issues here, such as the fact that nobody bothered to check whether the claim of copyright violation actually occurred, why the page was spontaneously protected for no apparent reason - and without any discussion whatever, and - along with you - that people are resorting to smear tactics in lieu of having reasonable arguments or explanations for their actions. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 13:33, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Blippy, you might be missing the point of this noticeboard: it's where users are reported to administrators for further action because discussion elsewhere has escalated to a point of no-return, or the behaviours are just that horrible that action is required. As such, most commenters here are not nor shall they ever be involved in the article - after all, an WP:INVOLVED admin would be unable to take action in many cases. Most users who comment here are going to base their comments on their review of your recent edits, AND your behaviour in this thread. Those who are involved in the article will comment from a different perspective ES&L 14:39, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Ok Blippy, I will revise my comment - no one has mentioned edit-warring on your talk page since November 17th. It is a long time since your only block, over 4 years. So that's good. Dougweller (talk) 17:24, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Dougweller. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 01:20, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

ES&L you're correct that I have limited experience of this noticeboard. And copyright violations. I've asked several times to see the violation because a whole swathe of edits have been hidden. There were three edits within 8 mins of each other concerning the content in question, so I am keen to see the content of the last of those three edits and how it compares to the source text so that I can assess the copyright breach for myself and, where appropriate, learn from any mistakes I may have made. I reject any accusations of disruptive editing - but I have encountered several people who prefer to focus more on the editor than the edits, and assume that edits from any perspective that does not accord fully with their own is disruptive by definition, rather than per WP policy. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 01:20, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

The thing about a copyright violation is that reposting it (or unhiding the relevant revisions) would itself constitute a copyright violation. So, no, you are not going to be able to look at those. LadyofShalott 03:51, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Blippy, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. That entire paragraph was lifted from the source, with only a minor change in word order toward the end. Lady, or any other admin with magic glasses, would you mind looking at this source and this magically invisible version and confirm to Blippy here that this was properly removed? Thank you. Drmies (talk) 04:23, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm not saying it was improperly removed, I'm saying I don't understand what was removed. To the best of my knowledge I didn't paste a chunk of text into the article - or at least, if I did so, I would be very surprised if I simply left it as is. I noticed there were 3 edits, and I would like to be able to understand how the last of those edits compares with the source material as I do recollect tidying up some of that material. Unfortunately I am not a savant, so I don't have photographic memory of each of my edits, I usually use the edit history for such things :-) If the final of those 3 edits is a copyright violation I will be unpleasantly surprised and suitably chastened, and will particularly wish to know the specifics so that I don't make any such errors in future. I endeavour to strive for good writing that reflects the sources, not reproduces them. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 04:37, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and thanks for the explanation LadyofShalott - I see this creates somewhat of a Catch22 for me. And happy anniversary Loreena. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 04:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I looked at the version Drmies linked. I don't know if it's the final one or not, but yes, that one was lifted verbatim from the website, and you just can't do that. I'm glad my explanation helped. LadyofShalott 04:53, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Could you confirm that was the third edit Drmies? I think the complexity of the name spelling was why I copied/pasted into the editor, and obviously saved at that point in error. I may plead slip of the mouse on that and be extra careful in future  :-) However, if that was the third edit, then I am more troubled. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 05:02, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

You added it on 09:07, 15 January 2014. Dougweller (talk) 11:07, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Ah, ok, thanks Dougweller - that must have been the paste and save edit. I'm referring to the state of that section two edits later at 09:15, 15 January 2014. I'm keen to know if it still violated the copyright policy at that point or not, as I thought I had made sufficient changes to the text. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 12:01, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you didn't change it. You added more text and tweaked that. Dougweller (talk) 13:24, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

The revdel should be undone. RD1 states "If redacting a revision would remove any contributor's attribution, this criterion cannot be used. Best practices for copyrighted text removal can be found at Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems and should take precedence over this criterion." As the revdel contains contributions by AtG and Bhny, the conditions are not met. The linked page, Copyright problems, clearly states "The infringing text will remain in the page history for archival reasons unless the copyright holder asks the Wikimedia Foundation to remove it...". Unfortunately, it does get rather circular after that, with an "unless" looping back to RD:1, putting the reader in an infinite policy link loop of contradictory information... but anyway, just reverting the copyvio is common practice and common sense. NE Ent 13:00, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• NE Ent, are you sure anyone's contributions have been removed? The diff which includes the version before the rev/del and the one after shows quite a few changes. Dougweller (talk) 13:32, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• Exactly. Since the revdel prevents determining who wrote what, the revdel itself is a violation of the Misplaced Pages CC-BY-SA license, in that removes the required attribution. NE Ent 14:04, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• That only applies "If infringement is not blatant", to cite the header of the section Ent linked. There was nothing "suspected or complicated" about this. In addition, the names of the contributors have not been removed, so the contributors can still be determined even if the particular contributions can't. A parallel situation is found in the printing of an article: for attribution a list of contributors suffices, not what they actually did. Drmies (talk) 15:51, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• I sit corrected: WMF licensing terms clearly specify a list of authorship is sufficient; nonetheless the revdel remains non-compliant with a logical interpretation of RD1. Since revdel's don't remove authorship info, if we rely on "list attribution", the terms redacting a revision would remove any contributor's attribution would never apply, which begs the question why they are there in the first place. The logical interpretation is revdel a copyvio if and only if it can be done without removing specific attribution of other authors. NE Ent 17:36, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• RD1 is OK if "Blatant copyright violations that can be redacted without removing attribution to non-infringing contributors." The question is what "attribution" means here. If my reading of "attribution" ("list attribution", sure) is correct, then RD could never accomplish that, unless the names of the non-offending contributors are deleted. It's possible to do that, of course, but I don't see how that would ever happen (unless erroneously) since user names can't contain a copyvio. Ordinarily speaking--I'm sure Borges could come up with one. Drmies (talk) 17:51, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to hear what User:Moonriddengirl has to say about this. Dougweller (talk) 19:30, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I started WT:Revision deletion#RD1 wording. I reverted NE Ent's insertion of an anchor into WP:Copyright problems/Header#Suspected or complicated infringement. The subsection header is three lines above the anchor, and the only effect I can see is that it hides context by scrolling the header off the top of the window. Flatscan (talk) 05:14, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

NE Ent reverted, with the edit summary "Anchor already used." Drmies rebutted NE Ent's citation by simply quoting from the lines above the anchor (partial diff). NE Ent, as I wrote in my revert edit summary, you can link to the subsection header. Flatscan (talk) 05:08, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

I think this is if anything a problem with the language of the criteria. As noted, attribution requires a list of authors; the step by step guide to construction we give is great but above and beyond. Otherwise, people could not reuse our content without including the full history. The criterion says, "Best practices for copyrighted text removal can be found at Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems and should take precedence over this criterion" and Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems explicitly referenced Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems/Advice for admins at the time that content was added, and that page has long discussed means of keeping good content while removing old. We used to routinely use selective deletion and provide a full list of authors for removed content where the risk of inadvertent or purposeful restoration seemed high; after revision deletion was created, that practice was deprecated in favor of it. I'll go check out the conversation. --Moonriddengirl 13:47, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Uncivil conduct of User:LazLong Sr

I contacted User talk:LazLong Sr about an editing issue regarding Greater Houston and while I have been able to help correct one issue that LazLong has had with the article and edits removing content related to universities in Galveston, I think that his attitude has been increasingly uncivil even though I feel that I have been helping him. Can anyone please give some assistance here? WhisperToMe (talk) 07:09, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I've warned him about personal attacks. Minor incivility was once dealt with at WP:WQA but brilliant minds dismantled it. The best choice when faced with obstinence is abstinence...in other words, back away, go back to discussing on the article talkpage to obtain consensus, and use WP:DR where needed. Not everyone is a wiki-expert, and not everyone is able to see 2 sides ES&L 10:01, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Looks like a content dispute that's resulted in frayed nerves. I don't see a pattern of incivility that requires administrative intervention, or anything like that. ESL is right in suggesting the DR process, as well as giving yourself a break from the dispute. Sometimes just giving yourself 24 hours to think about something else can be beneficial, even when the dispute has run for weeks or months on end. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 14:14, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

That's fine. I asked about it on IRC and somebody suggested ANI but I'm fine with another venue. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:40, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Sounds great to me. As long as he doesn't come to my talk page and attack me, I fine with it. Didn't know this process was here or I'd used it earlier. I'm not a "professional Wikier" and honestly don't care to be. I am a professional member of the media and I do seek honesty and balance in the few Wiki articles with which I am concerned. Thanks for your time. LazLong Sr (talk) 17:38, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Speaking as a professional member of the media, no self-respecting member of any media organization would call someone names like that ... it's wholly unprofessional ES&L 18:20, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Please, exactly what names did I call him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LazLong Sr (talk • contribs) 19:41, 17 January 2014 (UTC) Sorry, for not signing. I'm not used to wikiways LazLong Sr (talk) 19:43, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

User:WhisperToMe should have provided some differences showing the incivility but I suspect that remarks like this and this are what they are referring to. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 00:41, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I should provide diffs next time. Since much of it was on the same page and was left up I thought it would be apparent. The one that prompted this discussion was this one. This was the one before it, and this one before it said "At this point in the process, it really doesn't matter to me what you think. You've clearly shown your "true colors" as it were." WhisperToMe (talk) 01:06, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

ATTENTION - ES&L and . —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's

Please notice he has continued his attacks on me just a few hours after you suggested he lay off for at least 24 hours. This is how the entire disagreement started in the first place - Instead of a civil discussion on the article's Talk Page, he came to MY house, my Talk page, being intrusive, rude, and berating. When he should have stopped, he repeatedly returned to my Talk page with his boorish attitude.

I see he's now done the same on your page - twisting my tail here. So much for "backing off." He really has a great way of showing respect for your suggestions on how to curtailment the ill will he's fostered. LazLong Sr (talk) 02:59, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and ES&L I still respectfully ask you to point out these "names" you accuse me of calling him. Thanks for your attention. LazLong Sr (talk) 02:59, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

You really don't recollect calling WTM a fool and a pompous ass? It was only yesterday. Bishonen | talk 16:27, 18 January 2014 (UTC).

Those are not names. Those are proper descriptions, in my opinion, of MTM's words and actions on my Talk page. LazLong Sr (talk) 01:27, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Darn, I'm sorry. I didn't sign in properly. I really do apologize, I'm not a real wikier and not comfortable with all the logins and tildes so I have to go back and correct. I'm not doing it intentionally. LazLong Sr (talk) 02:59, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

ES&L and . —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's --- I'm sorry to make multiple entries without allowing adequate time for your response. Please believe me, I am not attempting to bully you by stacking things up with repeated entries. That was done to me, and it is not right to do that to someone. All that said, I'd like to remind you, I DID NOT seek out this post war. I started no attack on anyone. Someone took a civil discussion away from the article in question, aggressively brought it to MY house, to my personal Talk page, and commenced to attack and talk down to me. I responded to this affront as I would any such attack "in my house." I defended myself and yes, retaliated. I DID not seek out this fight, but I won't be bullied in my house. LazLong Sr (talk) 04:07, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I have read the exchange on your talkpage - and the purpose of that talkpage is, indeed, to talk to YOU, and it belongs to the Wikimedia Foundation as is provided for that purpose. There is only ONE party who is uncivil on that page: you. You're the one who begins with accusations of some form of racist agenda. When the person apologizes for an error of theirs, you attack them, and continue your subtle but obvious accusations of racism. You eventually refer to them as a fool. Sincere attempts by another editor to advise you of Misplaced Pages policies and norms CANNOT be considered an attack. Let me repeat in case you missed it: you were never attacked on the talkpage - you were asked to follow set policies that you agreed to when you signed up to this private website, and they pointed out a few areas where you have been failing to keep up to your end of the bargain. ES&L 10:06, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinions. I disagree with them, but I'm then not a professional wikier, just a professional member of the working media. LazLong Sr (talk) 01:27, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, there are no "professional wikiers", and your status as a "professional member of the working media" is not relevant to your status on Misplaced Pages, one way or the other. Secondly, if you disagree with those "opinions", then you need not to edit on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages has policies and guidelines, and when you edit Misplaced Pages you must follow these policies and guidelines, or you will - if you ignore or flaunt them - be blocked from editing until you agree to. Thirdly, I see that you comment on your talk page that you are here "attempting to keep the FACTUAL TRUTH posted in a very few Wiki articles" - "Truth" is not what Misplaced Pages is here for. The standard for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is Verifiability, not truth; it is a sad but true fact that professing an agenda to promote "The Truth" is almost invariably a sign of a bad editor. I'd suggest you step back, take a deep breath, Read up on some relevant policies, and then either resume editing while following them - or, if you can't follow them, not to resume editing at all. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:58, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Beginning to feel like a hindquarter in a shark feeding frenzy. Thanks for that Bushranger, especially the links. I completely understand "verifiability is a necessary condition (a minimum requirement) for the inclusion of material" and was pleased to see it's been amended to consider sources balanced relative to other sources per Misplaced Pages's policy on due and undue weight. Some semantics - I believe "FACTUAL TRUTH" is defined as verifiable, irrefutable facts, and a step more stringent than verifiable alone. I do need to do much more reading on the "wiki way" and think a lot of this event stems from multiple misunderstandings - almost exclusively mine. Much of the animosity stemmed from what I perceived as someone taking a discussion from the article's Talk page and lecturing/attacking me in what I perceived as my personal space, my Talk page. I read others Talk pages and did not see such taking place there. More over, I felt what was brought there missed the core of the problem, that being why was everything about a major, world-renown city removed from an article where it clearly belonged. I was already distressed about the article's "serialization" of anything to do with the City of Galveston as if it were a virus, coupled with what I wrongly perceived as a personal attack in my personal space, and basically I blew a gasket. Things then quickly escalated in a back and forth that needed to stop or at lease slow down. I should not have wrote the things I wrote, especially in the hateful manner in which I wrote them. But at the time I felt I was defending myself, and my "home" - as mistaken as I now realize that feeling to be it none the less was what I was experiencing. Honestly, I wasn't aware how truly visceral some of what I wrote was as I only recently went back and read it. I apologize to all for this, especially WhisperToMe. I have learned much from this event and hope to continue learning.

I do have a question of "correct wiki action" at this point. Should I leave up or clear the page of the argument - not ES&L's admonitions which of course should remain?

And one more - Who is in charge or top rank or whatever? How does one know?

LazLong Sr (talk) 04:37, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Bhtpbank: Unfounded accusations, abuse, foul language and threats

This trail started when I discovered comments left at Talk:Railway electrification system that had nothing to do with improvement of the article and . These comments were an allegation sockpuppery left by Bhtpbank. As the comments were in no way connected with improvement of the article, I deleted them in accordance with the warning notice at the head of most talk pages and . For what it is worth, the sole evidence against the alleged socks, an IP address editor 86.169.32.152 and LiveRail is that they had agreed with each other. I believe that the reality is that they both disagreed with Bhtpbank (though others had as well). I shall not pursue this part further as LiveRail has been made aware of this ANI, and if he (or she) wishes to contribute, they can.

In accordance with established Misplaced Pages etiquette, I left a note on Bhtpbank's talk page as to the deletion and why . I also added a friendly warning that leaving unsupported accusations at talk pages can result in a block from editing. Bhtpbank's response on my talk page was highly abusive and used unacceptable language. I responded not following Bhtpbank's foul mouthed manner . The point about another editor being blocked for making unsupported allegations was real . This was followed by the first of Bhtpbank's threats also of note is the abusive and uncalled for edit summary.

I always check out the editing history of problem editors just to make sure it is not really me. In Bhtpbank's editing history, I discovered a series of edits deleting edits made by a new editor using an IP address 24.189.166.243. His first edit was on 12th January 2014. A check on the edits showed that the edits were essentially constructive, certainly to at least the standard expected of a new editor. Bhtpbank had launched into, what can be best described, as a tirade of reversions, (subsequently reverted by another as Bhtpbank's reason was wrong), (subsequently reverted by another as Bhtpbank's reason was wrong), & The edit summaries of these last two edits betrayed Bhtpbank's reasons for the reversions. He seems to believe that IP address editors should not be allowed to edit on Misplaced Pages and his reversion was simply because he seems to think that IP address editors should not be able to revert edits. As far as I know, this is not Misplaced Pages policy. He went on with more reversions, , , , & . No edit summary was left as to why these last five were reverted, but the edit summaries above a strong clue. With these eight reverts, Bhtpbank had reverted 24.189.166.243's entire contribution to Misplaced Pages at that time. I should point out that this new editor only edited for a total of three days having been driven away by the welcome that he got from Bhtpbank.

I reverted the two edits that gave the fact that they were carried out by an IP address editor as the reason because I believe that this is an inadequate reason to revert someone else's contribution. I also reverted one of the remaining five edits , but only because although Bhtpbank had not explained his reversion, 24.189.166.243 had left a perfectly good explanation of his edit. I left the remaing five edits alone but only because no edit summaries had been left at all.

Bhtpbank's response was what now seems to be becoming a trade mark tactic - an unfounded allegation - note also the embedded (and unfounded) allegations and threat. I believe that: I am correct is saying that no administrator is going to regard three (in my view justified) reversions on a single day as 'hounding' another editor. The irony is: that that is exactly what Bhtpbank was doing to 24.189.166.243 with his eight reversions.

The final threat came when Bhtbank decided to clean up his talk page, the threat here being in the edit summary, "You will come to regret the day that you crossed me.". One immutable sign of problem editors is that they always remove negative comments from their talk page in order to appear squeaky clean.

Policies violated: WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:PROFANEand WP:NEWCOMER definitely and WP:TE probably. I'm sure there must be a policy against making unfounded allegations, but I cannot find it at present.

I do not suppose for one moment that Bhtpbank's behaviour is going to result in a permanent block, but I believe that a short term block (say 1-3 months) is fully justified just to get the message across that making unfounded allegations, abusing and threatening other editors is unacceptable. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:30, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Quite whatever this inane slapfest is about isn't clear, but it's obvious that user:Bhtpbank is repeatedly behaving in a way that is far from the standard required of editors on a shared project like this. I would suggest that any repetition of this is blockable. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:12, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I read this whole complaint twice (seriously) and I'm still not sure what it's about. Anyone else want to take a shot at it? Erpert 08:41, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

If an admin cannot make sense of this incoherence, then it must be thrown out. It is clear that DieSwartzPunkt does not like me, but cannot put down in clear intelligible English what complaints he has against me. Is this the quality of editor that Misplaced Pages needs?? If he cannot enunciate in clear sentences, then perhaps he should be blocked, for wasting everyone's time?? If an editor has read it twice, and cannot make head nor tail of it, then it is time to close this case. It seems to be a blunderbuss attack, without direction nor purpose. To be honest, I would have tried to answer the accusations made against me, but I cannot understand what crime I have committed. If someone can translate gibberish into English, then I shall be happy to face the music. - Bhtpbank (talk) 18:33, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• This is neither inane nor gibberish, though it is lengthy. One of the accusations is that you use bad language which, at some point and in some circumstances, can be blockable; another is that your comments about IP editing are unacceptable. (Let's put it this way: if it turns out that you reverted an IP because they were an IP, you should be blocked, as far as I am concerned.) I can find little fault with DieSwartzPunkt's grammar or coherence, but it is very, very easy to find fault with the tone of your language, here and elsewhere. Drmies (talk) 18:44, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Follow up: At Talk:Power factor a user asked a reasonable question on an apparent inconsistency between that article and another (no problem here). An IP address editor (86.171.45.200 (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) answered the query reasonably accurately. Now I don't know whether it was because the response was from an IP address editor, or because Bhtpbank's knowledge of electrical engineering is deficient on the subject (probably both), but he deleted the IP addess editor's reply (violating WP:TPOC if I read it right) without giving a reason and substituted his own response . Unfortunately, Bhtpbank's response was wrong in every respect and unlikely to help the questioner.

86.171.45.200 restored his response referring to WP:BLANKING in the edit summary (I assume he inadvertently referred to the wrong policy, but the principle was sound). He or she also posted a warning about blanking on Bhtpbank's talk page also citing the wrong policy.

Bhtpbank left an abusive comment on 86.171.45.200's talk page which more or less states that he regards himself as being entitled to delete anything he pleases from IP address editors from talk pages. He also goes on to state, "Also, disregard bvllsh1t like this from unregistered users (i.e. fvckwits like you.)" (I assume the misspellings are some attempt at avoiding some perceived bad language bot). The edit summary of, "Get stuffed" says it all. Bhtpbank also deleted the warning from his talk page (not a problem in itself), but the edit summary of, "Get lost" is an indication of the attitude that newbie IP address editors are having to endure (Did I mention that this is a new editor?).

Now this last example may seem rather trivial and maybe not worthy of an ANI in its own right, but it is a symptom of a much larger problem. As a conclusion, Bhtpbank has posted a vitriolic statement on his user talk page against IP address editors though citing a single case that seems to be a single user using multiple IP adresses to inflict vandalism (as far as I can tell there is no evidence to link 86.171.45.200 with this specific case).

While no one can prevent Bhtpbank (or anyone) having such an opinion, to actually persecute such IP address editors in practice is unacceptable behaviour. Deleting other users comments from article talk pages purely because you happen to disagree with such users posting them there, or disagreeing with the comment, is equally unacceptable. What would happen if we all did it? DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 18:15, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) @DieSwartzPunkt: please exercise more brevity on posts like this; multiparagraph posts on ANI are hard to follow. That said, I actually do agree that this treatment of a newbie by User:Bhtpbank is an immediately blockable action. VQuakr (talk) 18:47, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

As this is an Admin's page, I ask for all non-admin comments to be struck out ... else this becomes a kangaroo court, pure and simple. How a non-admin can be assessed as knowledgeable in the policies of this place is unclear and does not help in the discussion. Also, we need to be absolutely clear on the difference between a genuine 'newbie" (i.e. a registered user) as opposed to an IP edit, which tends to be vandals and irregular editors. Wayne Ambler (talk) 19:23, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

That is not how this page works. Anyone can comment here. --Onorem (talk) 19:26, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

As it says at the top, "This page is for reporting and discussing incidents on the English Misplaced Pages that require the intervention of administrators and experienced editors." I hasten to add that it doesn't mean that only Admins and experienced editors can comment. Anyone can. Dougweller (talk) 19:28, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

And where did "Wayne Ambler" suddenly appear from? His first edit was yesterday. Odd that he should suddenly be an expert on "kangaroo courts" in Misplaced Pages pages. DieSwartzPunkt's complaints seem fairly clear to me. There is nothing confusing about them. He found an edit that seemed problematic, looked up edits by the editor (Bhtpbank) and found what seemed to him to a pattern of abusive behaviour by Bhtpbank. Paul B (talk) 19:32, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• This, as VQuakr pointed out, is disgusting. The current rant on their talk page is disgusting as well, besides...how to put this delicately...untelligent? And then there's the matter of old Wayne coming by, with some nonsensical comments that indicate a complete lack of understanding. Bhtpbank, you are hereby put on notice. One more personal insult (and us kangaroos will be the judge of what that is, not you), one more disparaging edit summary, one more such remark against or about an IP editor, and I will block you indefinitely, or as long as it takes for you to understand that a. your manners are terrible; and b. IP editors have every right to edit here (and I haven't seen anything useful coming from you, just cussing and reverting).

  If any other admin sees enough reason for a block right now, power to you. And to those (Erpert et al.--"WHAT DO YOU WANT???" stop shouting please) who joked about what DieSwartzPunkt tried to argue here and how they did it (Andy Dingley?) but didn't take the time to actually read it, shame on you. This is what ANI is for, and I could repeat old Wayne's argument about non-admins needing to stay away: if all you can do is gripe at someone who is making a legitimate complaint without taking them seriously, then maybe you need to stay the hell away. They came here with a valid problem, a seriously disruptive editor, and you chewed them out. I'm done before I say something negative. Drmies (talk) 00:06, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

  • Oh, and what goes for Bhtpbank goes for Wayne too, of course, so I'm not worried about them, sock or not. Drmies (talk) 00:08, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
    • Drmies, I'm not sure why you're in such a foul mood, but I wasn't joking; I seriously didn't understand the complaint. BTW, "WHAT DO YOU WANT???" is simply the link to my talk page (I comment here almost daily; you never noticed that before now?). Now then...may I offer you a spot of tea? Erpert 07:26, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I came here following a notice that DieSwartzPunkt placed on my user talk page expecting to make a minor contribution based on the thread title. What I discover is that this has progressed far beyond a simple matter of incivility and allegations. This is now a matter of an editor bullying and abusing new editors to the point that they give up and leave. The first of these 24.189.166.243 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) provided reasonable contributions for just 3 days and has not been heard from since. The second 86.171.45.200 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) for just 2 days following this piece of abuse posted by Bhtpbank on his talk page. I note that another user made a belated and laudable attempt at trying to rescue the situation.

Bhtpbank's rant on his talk page (here) is nothing short of disgraceful. I grant that a project such as this is going to attract unwanted attention from those who have no intention of making positive contributions, but Bhtpbank's assertion is that it is only anonymous editors who cause problems (and cites an exampe of just one problem). The reality is that registered editors are just as capable of causing problems as Bhtpbank himself is demonstrating so well. In fact just taking a straw poll of complaints in this ANI page (ignoring the merits of those complaints as I am not in a position to judge) at the time I made this post, shows 31 complaints against registered editors and just 4 against anonymous.

It is my belief that most of the original ANI complaint has paled into insignificance given the way that this has developed. The only issue that needs to be considered is Bhtpbank's deliberate and unwarranted bullying of potential new contributors to the project and his success in driving them away. It is my opinion that this factor alone warrants a permanent block of editing rights. –LiveRail < Talk > 12:00, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

As for you User:LiveRail, I actually like you, I honestly do. Your lack of understanding of railway electrification gives me so much amusement, that I like having you around. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bhtpbank (talk • contribs) 19:19, 19 January 2014‎ (UTC)

In my experience Bhtpbank has difficulty interacting with others in a civil manner. I've encountered him on several occasions, all relating to rail transport articles, and in all three cases his remarks were unhelpful and laced with bad faith. Last January he left a missive on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject UK Railways , castigating all the participants for not writing particular articles to his satisfaction. It was offensive enough that I reverted it (probably shouldn't have), on the grounds that no good would come of it. He promptly followed up with a similar diatribe: . Note that, as of writing, he hasn't done any of the article writing mentioned. Last October I put North Coast Hiawatha up for GA review. Bhtpbank conducted the first review, which you can see here: Talk:North Coast Hiawatha/GA1. His behavior was contentious throughout, and well below the usual standard for a GA review. Eventually he withdrew it, another editor stepped in, and the article was promoted. One final example: Talk:Belfast and Moosehead Lake Railroad (2009)#Requested move. I proposed a fairly straightforward move; the only reason I did an RM instead of just doing it was that I was not the primary author of a rather substantial article. Bhtpbank was one of two editors who commented, and left an unnecessarily inflammatory remark.

Short version: it's not just new editors. Bhtpbak treats everyone badly. In addition, he's probably sockpuppeting with "Wayne Ambler" though it's so transparent one hardly cares. If he can't treat others with a modicum of respect I think he should be shown the door. Mackensen (talk) 16:48, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh my goodness, I wondered how long it would take for you to find your way here. Cumnon in and join the party!! Seriously, I gave you very fair treatment of your GA review of North Coast Hiawatha. The ONLY problem was that you just wanted it to be a 'slam dunk', and when I gave feedback that you weren't expecting became defensive. If you ask for a critique but can't take the comments, then find another hobby, purleeeze. Reality check: your ego was bruised by my review, and you simply couldn't take it like a man, and respond positively. And now your here to stick the boot in to get even! (The truth stings ... doesn't it?) So this here we have a prime example of Misplaced Pages editors, when you don't get you way you complain here. It's like two brother, one weak one strong. When the weaker brother gets beaten, he runs to his mummy to complain. Thus Misplaced Pages editors are exposed as being 'mummy's boys' clinging on to the apron strings of their parents, fro protection from the big bad world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bhtpbank (talk • contribs) 19:19, 19 January 2014‎ (UTC)

Thanks for proving my point. I welcome other editors in this thread to review Talk:North Coast Hiawatha/GA1 and form their own opinion. I think they'll find that I responded to every critique you made, but had difficulty in getting you to actually finish the review. I believe a similar problem occurred at Talk:Bristol Parkway railway station/GA1. I was astonished to learn that after the fiasco at North Coast Hiawatha you would undertake another GA review, then claim you didn't mean to do so and leave another editor in the lurch. Mackensen (talk) 19:38, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Awwww, come here you big softie and let me give you a hug. ((((User:Mackensen))). There, there, there. Does your ego feel better now?? Seriously though, how do you manage with conflict in the real world?? Of course, you never experience that, stuck in front of a computer. Weel that's going to change very soon! Do you think that the internet is safe ... that you can remain anonymous and not identified for who you really are??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bhtpbank (talk • contribs) 19:52, 19 January 2014‎ (UTC)

Hi, that's an outing threat. On the balance of things that's a silly thing to do. I think we're done here. @Drmies: or another uninvolved administrator, can we wind this up? Mackensen (talk) 20:06, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree that someone uninvolved should close this; btw, I don't like where this is going... Erpert 21:59, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

To paraphrase "dey tuk oor jerrbs!" -mattbuck (Talk) 22:04, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• For the baiting, sneering, insulting, and possible threatening of real-world consequences for someone's comments here, blocked. If any admin decides that the comments to Mackensen, above, are grounds for an indefinite block for harassment, I couldn't fault them for it. Bhtpbank, you were warned, and now you got the block you deserve. Drmies (talk) 23:44, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Is it just me or does anyone else get the impression that Bhtpbank seems to have gone out of his way to get a block? Or: since a 72 hour block seems extremely lenient to me, given the way this evolved, is it possible that Bhtpbank was expecting an indefinite block and decided to insult everyone in this ANI while he still could?

Incidentally, some administrator may wish to delete the piece at User talk:Bhtpbank regarding IP address editors since it seems to have been (almost) universally condemned here. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 13:32, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of removing it from his talk page per WP:POLEMIC. Blackmane (talk) 17:44, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Information: A sockpuppetry case has been opened at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Bhtpbank in respect of the Wayne Ambler post above. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 14:17, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Cad and the Dandy - edits by Josephgallos

Much to my disapointment, I must request aministrator intervention re Cad and the Dandy and the edits of Josephgallos. Since getting involved with the article Savile Row some 2+ years ago, and getting that down to a less spam-like form, I have taken an interest in related articles. One such is Cad and the Dandy, created by user Josephgallos. I don't question WP:NOTAB, but persistent revision by Josephgallos - and nearly breaking the three revert rule - have recently brought to my attention the (now admitted) fact that Josephgallos is in fact commerically paid SEO consultant to the subject of this article. I have advised Josephgallos of our rules re WP:BIAS, and asked for a discussion of the issues, but am continually faced with non-engagement. Given that in the last 24hrs I have placed a vandal3 tag on his talk page, and a WP:BIAS notice on the article - the latter of which was reveresed - I am disapointingly now forced to request adinistrator intervention. The core problem here is that Josephgallos appears not to understand the difference between bias/avertorial and encyclopedic. Your quick intervention and input would be most appreciated - Thank You! Rgds,--Trident13 (talk) 10:35, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Trident13, I noticed that you twice removed the Good Article tag on Cad and the Dandy without the article being delisted. I also don't think the vandal tag was appropriate.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 11:28, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your input! My mistake on the GA, but in light of the admitted bias/lack of engagement plus revert of my addition of the BIAS tag, I hope that you can understand the choice. Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 13:26, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Trident13, you need to file a Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment if you want the page to be delisted from GA. Epicgenius (talk) 14:50, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I am appealing to the administrators to review this matter seriously. User:Trident13 has been trying to delete important verifiable content referenced with reliable published sources without valid reasons. User:Trident13 also engaged in a questionable practice to edit the content in question so it looks like they are inconsistent before deleting them altogether thus appearing in the history section like he deleted an inconsistent content. This is a deliberate manipulation attempt suggesting bias on his side. He is accusing me of vandalism citing content which I answered with supporting published sources. When he cannot provide valid reasons for deletion, he proceeded to attacking me and using WP:BIAS as an excuse to his Misplaced Pages:Blanking Vandalism. For the record, I did not create the Cad and the Dandy article. But information that is true, verifiable, and facts deserved to be included in the encyclopedia, thus I reverted back the content deleted by User:Trident13.

I have reasons to believe that User:Trident13 is biased for a few reasons:

1) User:Trident13 is the author of Chester Barrie article. Chester Barrie is a direct competitor of Cad & the Dandy

2) Just prior to accusations of vandalism by Trident13, I undid a revision from an unlogged user (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Cad_and_the_Dandy&diff=589712653&oldid=588460890).

3) User:Trident13 on several occasions has been replacing the "good article" tag of the Cad & the Dandy article with advert tag since 2012 without any reason at all. example is: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Cad_and_the_Dandy&diff=506077052&oldid=488408319

--Josephgallos

I have made it clear on the articles talkpage, I have no commercial association with the clothing industry, and was/have never been paid or asked to create an article for Chester Barrie. Yes I created it, but that was because it was mentioned on the Savile Row article which I had heavily editted, and I found it worthy of inclusion passing WP:NOTAB (I have also never bought suits from either establishment, or Savile Row). I also don't at present want to add to the current hot-pot which is the edits of Josephgallos by asking for review of GA status for the Cad and the Dandy. Simply put (again) I just want text to reflect encyclopedic content, not the SEO advertorial which Josephgallos has admitted on both the articles talkpage and his own user page (see edit record) been paid to insert. Rgds --Trident13 (talk) 17:39, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) You don't want to go through GAR but you want to come to ANI? That seems odd (I know ANI is a shorter process, but...). Anyway, I think this is another boomerang situation. Erpert 20:43, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

It should probably be reviewed anyway, as its GA quality is questionable. Epicgenius (talk) 01:12, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• Just how clear an indication of paid editing by a commercial "SEO consultant" do we need here? Whatever editors might think of how Trident13 has acted in some ways, there is a very obvious promotional COI issue that deserves examination. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:20, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

"putin article" someone inserted "mafia state" again to the putin article DESPITE TALKPAGE RULING! this is not a content dispute

Vladimir Putin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

this is not a content dispute this is unconstructive editing! some users inserted the mafia state edit in the putin article despite in the talkpage section "dictator and "American diplomatic cables" the ruling was "The result of this discussion is that this should only mentioned in the body of the article, not the lede" Kalix94 (talk) 15:08, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

It would help of you refrained from adding misleading or no edit summaries and instead pointed editors to the talk page discussion. People looking at your deletion will have no indication there's a valid reason for your deletion. --NeilN 15:30, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Have you considered talking to the user? The only interaction I see is you reverting him and tying things in all caps. No administrative action seems to be needed right now. only (talk) 15:31, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

the user violated the ruling on the talkpage, so administrative action is needed Kalix94 (talk) 15:36, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

We don't take "administrative action" for making one edit against current consensus or making an edit disregarding a discussion they may not have known existed. Let it go. --NeilN 15:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

To be fair, the user in question did participate in the discussion on the talk page, and modified the closing to his own desired outcome a few minutes after adding the information back to the lead of the article. only (talk) 15:52, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Incidentally, when you are posting here, you are told a couple times, in bold lettering, "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page." You did not do this. Yet no one is suggesting administrative action is needed against you. --NeilN 15:44, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Neil, Tataral participated in the RfC, so it's hard to argue they aren't aware of it. In addition, not only did they put the material into the lead, they also modified the closing of the already-closed RfC.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:53, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Bbb23, There were two separate editors which is why I had an "or" clause. Darkness Shines did not participate in the discussion and may have just seen a deletion with no valid explanation. --NeilN 15:59, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

may I suggest using your nightstick officer_Fortuna 15:52, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• I reverted a sock, see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Chaosname. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:07, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not saying whether he is or he isn't, but it did occur to me even before you posted here. I'm not familiar with that particular master, though.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:18, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

User:Kalix94 is indeed an obvious sockpuppet engaged in pro-Putin advocacy. I and other experienced editors who have followed that particular article over some years have noticed there is a constant campaign, often by new editors and IP addresses, to delete any criticism from the Vladimir Putin article, while drowning it in praise of Putin. There is no consensus whatsoever to change the text that has been stable for quite some time now and that was agreed by previous consensus, as claimed by User:Kalix94. The article is already 99% positive, so the very little criticism that is included must be retained. Tataral (talk) 18:33, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

But you do not get to supersede an experienced, uninvolved editor's close with your own. , . Please stop. --NeilN 19:03, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

And yet again. Tataral, as an "experienced" editor you should know better than to change the close of an RFC you commented in. --NeilN 20:43, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I've formally warned Tataral that if they do it again, I will block them.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:05, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Holdek-5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Holdek (talk · contribs) found a new entertainment. This time they start to add stub templates to a start-class article and edit-war over my removal of these templates . Last time they were blocked for a month for destructive editing. I am afraid time has come for an indefinite block, given that their contribution to Misplaced Pages is net negative.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:34, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

It would seem that this editor is disruptive. Whether it is for entertainment or lack of competence is uncertain. This speedy deletion nomination is cause for concern. Some sort of block seems necessary, at least until this user can be reined in.- MrX 16:31, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Re. the SD, it's probably a rival company. _Fortuna 16:52, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I do think the editor is disruptive and net negative, but I do not think they are a COI editor or smth. Most of their activity is to delete paragraphs from random articles which have {{cn}} templates. I never noticed any specific interest to companies.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:04, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Please read Misplaced Pages: Assume good faith. Holdek (talk) 17:07, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Good faith can only be assumed when the facts are not clear. here, the facts are available for all and sundry to see. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 19:03, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Holdek (talk) 20:26, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) To be fair, concerning the speedy deletion nom that MrX pointed out, that article does deserve to be deleted, as explained here. Erpert 20:21, 18 January 2014 (UTC) Scratch that; the article has greatly improved since the AfD began. Erpert 07:18, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Holdek, when I said the facts are there for all to see, I was referring to your semi disruptive behaviour. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 08:00, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Nope. Holdek (talk) 16:29, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Note:The following thread got split from this and misplaced under the edit warring discussion below. Since it's clear that several editors want to continue this thread, I'm moving it back here to let it continue and allow the edit warring thread to continue separately. Toddst1 (talk) 21:25, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

PI, you really need to calm down and reset your bias detector, because it's gone off the deep end. I've read the discussion on the talk page, and IŠ has simply not done what you're accusing him of - he did not claim the entire medieval Bosnian heritage for the Croats; he told you that there are sources that do that, and that you can't also do the converse for the Bosniaks. Granted, there may well be biases involved, e.g. you could ask him to practice what he preaches regarding the terminology on some medieval Croatian article, but at the same time, you just claimed that "most" of the bosančica was written among the Bosnian Church faithful, whereas there's pretty much a consensus out there that its use by the Franciscans is in no way less relevant. Battling this out like this, what with all the repetitive talking points, is utterly meaningless and it does not contribute to the encyclopedia. --Joy (talk) 00:03, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of the history of socks on Duck Dynasty but I saw that User:Perusteltu hadn't reverted after being warned. However if you look above in the Holdek section, MrX was involved in another tag-team edit war yesterday and completely rejected the warnings. I think BK and the others are aware that it isn't the number of edits that an editor makes, it's the back and forth reversions that make an edit war. There were quite a few here and clearly a multi-party edit war which shouldn't be controversial. If you think otherwise, then you need to review WP:EW.Toddst1 (talk) 23:37, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

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