| Revision as of 07:29, 8 February 2014 editDexDor (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users64,011 edits →Change to WP:DEFINING: oppose the proposed text← Previous edit | Revision as of 00:37, 11 February 2014 edit undoCensoredScribe (talk | contribs)4,709 editsNo edit summaryNext edit → | ||
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| --] (]) 16:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC) | --] (]) 16:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC) | ||
| * '''Oppose''' the proposed text as it could be interpreted as that all the types of categories listed are exempt from challenge. The proposed text also draws no distinction between "bot categories" (year-of-birth, ] etc which contain many thousands of articles) and "navigation categories" (which contain a few hundred at most); IMO we should be be making that distinction clearer, not putting them together in one list. It's unclear what "X" represents, but if it means "<person>" then that's not how we normally categorize - e.g. "Spouses of <person>" categories could easily lead to circular categorization. Wherever there's a list like that proposed here then editors will be tempted to add more items to the list (place-of-birth, place-of-death, people-from ...). Putting information about a specific type of article (e.g. biographies) into ] could lead to several problems - e.g. editors wanting other types of articles to be mentioned here, and minor contradictions between this page and ] causing endless discussion. Some of the categories in the proposed list should (IMO) be deleted - e.g. whilst it may be appropriate to categorize a person by their ethnicity, categorizing them by multiple great-grandparents ethnicities (as can happen with ethnic descent categories) is overcategorization (it may however be appropriate to store such information in Wikidata). This list would make it harder to delete such categories. Trying to separate categories into "active" and "passive" would cause more problems than it would solve (e.g. is place of burial active or passive?). ] (]) 07:29, 8 February 2014 (UTC) | * '''Oppose''' the proposed text as it could be interpreted as that all the types of categories listed are exempt from challenge. The proposed text also draws no distinction between "bot categories" (year-of-birth, ] etc which contain many thousands of articles) and "navigation categories" (which contain a few hundred at most); IMO we should be be making that distinction clearer, not putting them together in one list. It's unclear what "X" represents, but if it means "<person>" then that's not how we normally categorize - e.g. "Spouses of <person>" categories could easily lead to circular categorization. Wherever there's a list like that proposed here then editors will be tempted to add more items to the list (place-of-birth, place-of-death, people-from ...). Putting information about a specific type of article (e.g. biographies) into ] could lead to several problems - e.g. editors wanting other types of articles to be mentioned here, and minor contradictions between this page and ] causing endless discussion. Some of the categories in the proposed list should (IMO) be deleted - e.g. whilst it may be appropriate to categorize a person by their ethnicity, categorizing them by multiple great-grandparents ethnicities (as can happen with ethnic descent categories) is overcategorization (it may however be appropriate to store such information in Wikidata). This list would make it harder to delete such categories. Trying to separate categories into "active" and "passive" would cause more problems than it would solve (e.g. is place of burial active or passive?). ] (]) 07:29, 8 February 2014 (UTC) | ||
| == How much screen time is needed for an element of fiction to be defining of that work? == | |||
| I figure it would be in relation to the total length of the work. Specifically I was wondering whether a giantess being in one episode of the three episode long anime OVA ] would count as Category:Giants in fiction or Category:Size change in fiction. Or whether the final fight scene in ] or ] would similarly as although only a few minutes these scenes are at the end. I was also wondering whether the flying cars in blade runner are defining as they are frequently shown in the background and flying cars are commonly used device to show something is set in the future. Most modern day works feature cars however Category:Cars in fiction is not a category. Some works of fiction like Knight Rider are specifically about the cars though. ] (]) 00:37, 11 February 2014 (UTC) | |||
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Category: People made notable by their deaths
Editor Lindberg G Williams Jr has been adding the above un-created category to articles. I pointed out that adding red-linked categories to articles was discouraged, and have removed them. I also suggested that the category was bound to be controversial, both in concept and execution, and suggested he discuss it here, but he seems reluctant to do so. Perhaps someone more conversant with category work could talk to him? Beyond My Ken (talk) 10:21, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
Current CFD - "Baseball players from San Francisco, California," etc.
There is a current CFD underway at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 January 5#San Francisco, California sports players that I think should probably receive some attention. The implication is that an editor would like to replace "Sportspeople from San Francisco, California" and "Sport Foo players from California" with "Sport Foo players from San Francisco, California." The editor's position is that the "Sport from state" categories have gotten too big and that major cities should be broken out. I don't think the editor is alone in his/her opinion, but the other side also has valid points about potential overcategorization. I think it needs a wide discussion because the precedent would be pretty significant - and the real issue is the editor's belief that once categories get to a certain size they must be diffused. Lots of implication to categories of all stripes so I think the issue needs attention one way or the other to reach a quality resolution (whatever that may be). Rikster2 (talk) 17:37, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Give overcat an equal weight.
Categories in general I say is chaotic, although articles with properly maintained categories by Wikiproject exist. It is not because people cannot follow this guideline, but because 1. it is non-trivial decision on what to categorize, how narrow, how general they should be. ie. How not to categorize, if you make categories which are ill-formed, we better don't want you to do it. 2. People still don't recognize that an article is categorized by its WP:DEFINING characteristics, I have cited this many times, much more often than this page. --14.198.220.253 (talk) 17:51, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Moving category
Hi, who can help me move or rename this category: Albums produced by James Ford? It should be named "Albums produced by James Ford (musician)", per the naming of its parent article, James Ford (musician). Mayast (talk) 15:51, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- I just nominated it for speedy renaming.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:56, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, so now I know where to request that :) (WP:CFDS) Thanks! — Mayast (talk) 20:37, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- Just use twinkle. It does the right thing. much easier :)--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:58, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, so now I know where to request that :) (WP:CFDS) Thanks! — Mayast (talk) 20:37, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Change to WP:DEFINING
I'd like to propose a change to the rules around WP:DEFINING. For now, we state that in order for a category to be added, it must be verifiable, neutral, and DEFINING. For defining, I believe that we regularly violate this principle, in a reasonable way, such that current consensus has gone beyond what the guidelines state (i.e. "commonly and consistently define the subject as having"). Let me give you an example: Hisham Matar - he is regularly described as an American novelist, but is also described as a Libyan-American novelist - but he is rarely or never described as a Category:American novelists of Arab descent, even though that's the category he is in. He is also in the categories Category:1970 births,Category:Fellows of Girton College, Cambridge,Category:Alumni of Goldsmiths, University of London, Category:People from New York City, even though most bios and descriptions of his work don't always mention these elements. In a broader sense, there seem to be certain categories where we enforce WP:DEFINING, and certain others where we don't, and I think we should call that out. I believe basic biographic details, such as date of birth, death, alumni of X, and so on should be placed on an article regardless of whether reliable sources COMMONLY describe the subject as having those things. Ethnicity is another example - if we have an African American musician, but 99% of reliable sources call him a musician and only 1% of sources call him an African-American musician, as long as we are confident he is indeed African American, we should put him in Category:African-American musicians. The same applies for gender - even if only 1% of sources describe a poet as a fantastic female poet, and the other 99% of sources just call her a poet, she should go in the "Poet" and the appropriate "Female poets" category. I think we could thus develop a sort of "exception" to the DEFINING rule, because it would be absurd to remove a female poet from the female poets category because not enough sources mentioned this overlap between the female-ness and the poet-ness. Does that make sense? The exception, for people, would hold for gender + X, ethnicity + X, date of birth, date of death, location of burial (in some cases), where they are from (in most cases). It would not hold for religion + X, where we do want something defining - e.g. someone is not a Category:Roman_Catholic_writers just because they are Catholic and happen to write, and it would not hold for job. But for the others, there needs to be an exception where a single RS can suffice to put someone in a category, even if the vast majority of other sources don't do so. One rough test is the extent to which membership in the category is passive or active. My guess is, for most "passive" categories, e.g. categories where the person in question doesn't really have much of a choice as to their membership because it is based on characteristics about themselves over which they have little to no control, such categories should be filled up regardless of common usage in reliable sources. I just think we need to update the guidelines to match current practice.
Suggested draft for change: "For some categories, there is an exception to defining'. This does not absolve the need for reliable sourcing around any of these categories, it simply removes the requirement that RS commonly describe the subject with these categories. For biographies, this holds for the following types of categorization: Date of birth, date of death, location of burial, awards received, alumni categories, gendered categories (e.g. gender + job, gender + location), ethnicity-based categories (e.g. ethnicity + job), categories based on family relationships (e.g. children/sons/daughters of X, parents of X, spouses of X), means of death, and ethnic descent categories." --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose the proposed text as it could be interpreted as that all the types of categories listed are exempt from challenge. The proposed text also draws no distinction between "bot categories" (year-of-birth, CAT:LP etc which contain many thousands of articles) and "navigation categories" (which contain a few hundred at most); IMO we should be be making that distinction clearer, not putting them together in one list. It's unclear what "X" represents, but if it means "<person>" then that's not how we normally categorize - e.g. "Spouses of <person>" categories could easily lead to circular categorization. Wherever there's a list like that proposed here then editors will be tempted to add more items to the list (place-of-birth, place-of-death, people-from ...). Putting information about a specific type of article (e.g. biographies) into WP:DEFINING could lead to several problems - e.g. editors wanting other types of articles to be mentioned here, and minor contradictions between this page and WP:COP causing endless discussion. Some of the categories in the proposed list should (IMO) be deleted - e.g. whilst it may be appropriate to categorize a person by their ethnicity, categorizing them by multiple great-grandparents ethnicities (as can happen with ethnic descent categories) is overcategorization (it may however be appropriate to store such information in Wikidata). This list would make it harder to delete such categories. Trying to separate categories into "active" and "passive" would cause more problems than it would solve (e.g. is place of burial active or passive?). DexDor (talk) 07:29, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
How much screen time is needed for an element of fiction to be defining of that work?
I figure it would be in relation to the total length of the work. Specifically I was wondering whether a giantess being in one episode of the three episode long anime OVA Jungle de Ikou! would count as Category:Giants in fiction or Category:Size change in fiction. Or whether the final fight scene in Paprika (2006 film) or Dude, Where's My Car? would similarly as although only a few minutes these scenes are at the end. I was also wondering whether the flying cars in blade runner are defining as they are frequently shown in the background and flying cars are commonly used device to show something is set in the future. Most modern day works feature cars however Category:Cars in fiction is not a category. Some works of fiction like Knight Rider are specifically about the cars though. CensoredScribe (talk) 00:37, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Category: