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American-led intervention in Iraq

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American-led intervention in Iraq (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Article is a mirror of the intro of 2014 military intervention against ISIS; created by 3 editors attempting to evade active temporary semi-protection on that site and to inject contentious material. DocumentError (talk) 03:07, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Delete article is non-GF mirror DocumentError (talk) 03:09, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Striking delete vote. Nominating an article for deletion implies a deletion vote, so that delete vote would essentially be a duplicate vote. You essentially "voted" for deletion when you nominated the article. Safiel (talk) 04:20, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

You're right, of course, Safiel. Thanks for catching this error of mine. DocumentError (talk) 04:24, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Keep: Article was proposed before temporary semi-protection was instated on 2014 military intervention against ISIS. Article does not meet WP:POVFORK definition, but is rather clearly a WP:SPINOFF. Consensus clearly existed for an article focusing on the Iraqi theater of this notable, significant, and complex conflict, as evidenced on Talk:2014 military intervention against ISIS in this thread and Talk:American-led intervention in Syria in this thread. Nominator's objections are rooted in a discussion that has little to nothing to do with the manner of the article's creation and is being addressed through more appropriate channels already, via Talk:American-led intervention in Iraq#Systemic_Bias. Nominator has hereto failed to raise objections, whether policy-based or entirely subjective, to the content that exists on American-led intervention in Iraq and made clear his belief that a new article title would be a "good compromise" in his eyes. In conclusion, the evidence does not support nominator's contention that this article was created improperly, and other avenues exist to resolve nominator's objections to the article title and scope. -Kudzu1 (talk) 03:17, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Speedy keep – This is forum shopping at its finest. First, DocumentError starts an RfC on the talk page at Talk:American-led intervention in Iraq. That hasn't gone his way, so a couple hours later, he starts a frivolous ]] thread. That didn't go his way either, so he has now started an AfD. Utterly absurd. I request that an administrator speedily close this discussion and sanction DocumentError for tendentious editing under the Syrian Civil War arbcom sanctions. RGloucester — ☎ 03:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Keep: Article is not a mirror but reflects a consensus of users expressing a desire that there be an iraq specific page just like there is one for the Syria intervention. There are other ways to resolve the issues that the nominator has brought up which other users have agreed are relevant involving the scope of the article. Deletion is unnecessary and this article was not created to evade protection on a page that was protected due to users disputing where Britain should be in the infobox not due to contentious editing. I also believe Rgloucester is right that the user is forum shopping because the discussions are not going their way. Definitive keep. SantiLak (talk) 03:31, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Can a proposed article merger also be a candidate for deletion? It seems illogical that such a case would be allowed. David O. Johnson (talk) 03:30, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I think RGloucester is quite right in calling this forum shopping. -Kudzu1 (talk) 03:36, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Delete or Merge to 2014 military intervention against ISIS. Why are we keeping this? What makes America so special as opposed to the other countries involved for example? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:36, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

There is a specific American-led intervention going on, that's why. It is notable in its own right. It is called "American-led" because "America" started the initiative, and has carried out most of stuff. Regardless, the title can be iterated on. You've missed the mark here. RGloucester — ☎ 03:39, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Knowledgekid87. It's a small group of editors trying to evade protection on the merge-to article. For full disclosure, I've also raised this at ANI here - but have also nominated here as the ANI deals specifically with the article creator's intent. (FYI - I recommend you avoid the ANI unless you want to be called a bunch of names and be the subject of a variety of wild accusations from this tightly canvassed group.) DocumentError (talk) 04:01, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Being honest Im not focused on the editor dispute the only reason you provided for deleting this was that it duplicated an existing article. I do think the AfD should run it's course and would be interested in seeing more opinions on the content matter. Anyways its late so im going to get some rest, I will look into this again tomorrow. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• • For one, it's a distinct operation; for another, Iraq is a discrete theater in a campaign that also has a Syrian component, as reflected in American-led intervention in Syria. If the article title is an issue, by all means, you or nominator can start a movereq, instead of distorting the record to claim the article wasn't created in good faith. -Kudzu1 (talk) 03:40, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Im sure the article was created in good faith I just don't see a reason for a spinout here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:41, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
    • FYI there was more than one American led intervention into Iraq. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:44, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
      • By all means, start a movereq and change the title. I'll probably even support it. As far as I'm concerned, all three of the anti-Islamic State intervention articles are problematically named. -Kudzu1 (talk) 03:53, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
        • I might consider it, and also have an open mind here. Do you think the article can be expanded upon and put into it's own wording to not look like it is a mirror article? Im just not seeing how this article is working out on it's own for some reason. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:58, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
          • I do think it can, yes. Basically, remove some of the granular details from 2014 military intervention against ISIS on the Iraqi theater specifically to the spinout page; use the spinout to focus on the details of the operations in Iraq. The parent article should focus more broadly on all efforts in both Iraq and Syria to combat the Islamic State and support groups that oppose them on the ground. It should direct readers to the daughter articles for Iraq and Syria for details. That relieves pressure to keep up with events that could cause bloat of the parent page, which would be a WP:SIZE concern, and allow the parent article to focus on aspects of the coalition-building that involves, for instance, Kurdish groups on both sides of the border, Turkey's efforts to control the flow of Islamic State militants across its borders, and the relationship between the U.S.-led coalition, Iran, Syria, and Iraq. -Kudzu1 (talk) 04:04, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Delete obviously needless duplication BlueSalix (talk) 04:09, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Keep It appears that the split occurred due to consensus regarding article content, not as an attempt to get around editing restrictions. The American intervention is heavily sourced independent of the wider intervention, so notability requirements have been met. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 05:39, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Spirit of Eagle, note that the consensus - and I was one of those who formed part of that consensus - was to create an Iraq-theater specific article not a "Team America" article, which was the source of the major disruption that created the need for protection originally. When I opined in support of a branch article, it was specifically NOT this; many other editors were in the same boat. This was a clear case of WP:GAMING. The consensus myself and others previously gave was NOT for this. DocumentError (talk) 06:07, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

@DocumentError: So propose that the article be renamed. That is not a valid argument for deletion. VQuakr (talk) 06:31, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

The article is an almost word-for-word duplicate of an article that already exists and was created with the intention of implementing edits that could bypass protection on the main article and push the POV of a trio of editors whose edits were part of the reason protection was initially imposed. That's the reason for the AfD. In the above note I was only addressing Spirit's more limited question regarding whether consensus was given for the article. DocumentError (talk) 06:34, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Stop promoting your own narrative. It is not true that the article was created to bypass protection, since (as I have previously pointed out here the protection was put into place after we discussed creating the article. If it was true that the article was created "with the intention of ... pushing POV" the discussion would have started following the protection of the page. However, it did not and your claim is demonstrably false. In addition, the page protection of the 2014 military intervention against ISIS article is a distinct issue from what we are discussing; as Empire of War has correctly pointed out here , the page protection was done in reaction to the actions of various IP editors. There is no need to resort to false accusations. David O. Johnson (talk) 07:05, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

As the person who requested the page be protected, I think I know why it was put in place. So don't tell me why I requested it. I know why I requested it. And it was because of POV-pushers who were trying to insert a US-centric bend into the article. DocumentError (talk) 07:44, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

"A discussion is currently ongoing on the Talk page of this article, which is current and active in the news, about including the British flag icon in advance of the actual engagement of British forces (currently only a parliamentary resolution has been passed). Nonetheless, 13 different IP editors in the last 36 hours have added the flag icon, necessitating almost constant reverting." You wrote that in the RPP page. Nothing about an alleged us-centric bend. SantiLak (talk) 07:48, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Here is a link to the relevant RPP . David O. Johnson (talk) 07:54, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you -- I was just about to ask if there is a diff. -Kudzu1 (talk) 07:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

two very different stated reasons written by the same editor. I see a pattern here. Legacypac (talk) 09:05, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Problems with article content should be addressed in the article's talk page, not through AfD. I still do not see any reason for deletion as all of the problems raised can be solved through editing. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 00:12, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

• Keep This article needs a lot of work but it makes sense. This is a separate theater and there has been support for this on the talk page of the overarching article. Concerns about continued edit warring on this page are legitimate and maybe the page should be subject to the same regime that the overarching article is currently subject to. Juno (talk) 07:56, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Keep: I think RGloucester is quite right in calling this forum shopping and suggesting sanctions against DocumentError. I consider his actions WP:BATTLE. He is also trying a Systematic Bias on the same article at the same time. I agree with all the other reasons too keep too and will not repeat them. Legacypac (talk) 08:06, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Calling for "sanctions" on other editors has a chilling effect on discussion, particularly since this AfD -based on several instances of user support for Delete - obviously is not a WP:SNOWBALL nom. Considering RGloucester's own colorful block history, I hope you quickly reconsider your demand. DocumentError (talk) 09:30, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep - This article was proposed to be merged, then CSD'd and now an AFd. DocumentError dragged me to Ani and false accusations of Canvassing. I made this article to help slim down the parent article which covers both conflicts. Not bypass Full protection. --Acetotyce (talk) 13:09, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Editor, in GF omission, forgot to provide a link to the ANI where the "false accusations of Canvassing" occurred. As a courtesy to editor, I am providing it here: . DocumentError (talk) 13:40, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I was mentioning my Talk page, but thanks for highlighting that. --Acetotyce (talk) 14:00, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I have watched the creation of the main article and all comments on talk page support the making of this article. I'm appalled at the personal attack that this has become. This article was written in good faith as was the main article and the name was changed on that article as well. General consensus on the talk pages suggested this article would be written at some point to slim down the main article. Although I believe the name is probably not the best, I'm sure a vote on changing it would be a better topic then deletion or merging. There's a lot that can be added and changed that's what we do here. As far as canvassing I've read all talk pages and nothing supports that allegation. Notification is necessary when there is a dispute to be discussed and that's all that was done. --WikiButterfly (talk) 17:23, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi, WikiButterfly. I know you've only been on WP for 18 days and your only edits have been to arrange to meet with Acetotyce on IRC, etc., so it's not a big deal, but you should sign your posts with four "~" so it creates a wikilink to your userpage. Like I said, no big deal, just wanted to let you know. Welcome to WP! DocumentError (talk) 17:47, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks and yes I'm new to WP for just a couple weeks and am slowly learning my way around. I do sign all posts with the four ~ as u can tell since u have checked our talk pages. I don't know why it didn't show up that way from my phone. I'll be careful to make sure from now on. --WikiButterfly (talk) 18:10, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Well I think it's great that your second set of off-Talk edits was to weigh-in on an AfD and levy WP:PA personal charges against an editor. I don't think I'd even learned where AfD was, or what PA meant, until many months after I'd registered. Congrats and please say hi to Acetotyce on IRC for me. DocumentError (talk) 18:24, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

SPEEDY CLOSE PLEASE: This is now almost comical. Consider DocumentError has created Iranian-led_intervention_in_Iraq which is fine except doing that action is EXACTLY the same crime as what he is complaining about here and elsewhere. Legacypac (talk) 18:13, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi LegacyPAC. It's not necessary to shout. Also, we generally discourage using words like "comical" to describe the opinions of other editors. Thank you! DocumentError (talk) 18:24, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iraq-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:21, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:21, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: It is about the US lead campaign and thus is going to be intrinsically US centric, but it's allies need a bit more of a mention. The UK, France, Saudi Arabia, Australia and Denmark have also done lot.90.244.94.220 (talk) 19:07, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

So has Iran, which is not part of the US-led campaign. They, nonsensically, are left with a separate article about the same conflict, as a result of this insistence of making sure Team America has its own vanity article. Iranian-led intervention in Iraq DocumentError (talk) 19:13, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

If this article is somehow in your opinion a vanity for the US and apparently from what you are accusing us of, you believe we are POV editors trying to make this all about america. I think it's time that we consider that you may be a POV editor too but you seem to be pro-countries like Iran or Syria. Iran should be in an Iraq intervention article but you seem to just want to oppose any neutral articles that mention the US coalition in an important way. They are important to the Iraq intervention, it is not POV to include that in the article or america-centric it is just true. SantiLak (talk) 00:15, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't see this line of discussion as constructive; there is nothing to be gained by reading that intent into another editor's actions in this circumstance. The fact that DocumentError did create an article "nonsensically", in his words, promptly suggested another new article for "Syrian-led intervention in Iraq" even while creating the page Talk:Iranian-led intervention in Iraq, and is now pushing for it to be merged with American-led intervention in Iraq at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Military history certainly brings up some WP:POINT concerns, however. -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:15, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

He brings up valid concerns about the scope of the article but I was just pointing some stuff out that I thought was important when it came to his accusations towards other users. SantiLak (talk) 01:20, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh Lord. Just start lobbying for a block on me. I'm tired of being strung out like this. Let's just get it over with. Canvassing editors, coordinating AfD votes via IRC, etc. I'm done. I didn't sign on for this, Acetotyce, Kudzu, or whatever your name is. Yes, I'm a MISRI secret agent here to push a pro-Iran POV or whatever else you want to think of me. I quit. DocumentError (talk) 01:21, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

So is the Iranian-led intervention in Iraq a vanity article too? The double standards advocated are comical, as is dragging a content dispute through every process possible - if not comical it is something far worse. There is no way the subject article of this AfD is going to be deleted based on the input from editors already. How do these things get closed? Legacypac (talk) 21:08, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. The chances of delete are low right now given the rapid influx of a tightly coordinated group of editors. Nonetheless, we don't close discussions after just a couple hours. That's why I previously reported you for 1RR (you unilaterally shut-down the systemic bias discussion after 6 hours). Why are you in such a hurry, LegacyPAC? DocumentError (talk) 21:14, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

You keep bringing up Ben Carson's similarly named political action committee, not-so-subtly implying that Legacypac is in some way affiliated with it. I don't know Legacypac, haven't worked with him to my knowledge in the past, but he joined Misplaced Pages c.2007 (well before American Legacy PAC existed, per OpenSecrets.org: ) and describes himself as a resident of Canada on his userpage. I know you insist on dredging up other editors' block histories (including my one-hour block from 2011), describing "colorful block histories", and trying to discredit everyone who disagrees with you as "tightly coordinated" and "canvassed" (none of which is true -- my prior interactions with all of these editors except for RGloucester and VQuakr have been either nonexistent or limited, AFAIK; I barely know what IRC is, much less how to use it, much less do I use it to coordinate with other editors; I categorically reject the idea that the neutral notification placed at User talk:Kudzu1, after you failed to notify me as an involved editor, even comes close to meeting the definition of WP:CANVASS), but why don't you lay off the WP:BATTLE, WP:HOUND, and WP:GAMING behavior and just let all of these various requests for administrative attention you have made play out. -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:26, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

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