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"NPOV"

My understanding of WP:NPOV is that "Articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without bias." Sommers' status as a "Feminist" is in dispute. According to the article, "Some of her critics refer to her as anti-feminist." Is it appropriate for the article to say that she is a Feminist, and these critics are wrong? Carte Rouge (talk) 12:31, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Is it appropriate for the article to side with the critics, implicitly, by denying that Sommers is a feminist? I'm afraid that doesn't seem in accord with WP:BLP. Since you invoke WP:NPOV, note that its first words are, "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." The article already does that, by noting that Sommers' critics have called her an anti-feminist. That is being fair and proportionate: it gives the views of the critics as much recognition as they deserve in the lead. Implicitly siding with with the critics and their point of view, as you are doing by trying to strip Sommers of her status as a feminist, is neither fair or proportionate. You seem to be trying to fight some ideological war here, promoting the view of Sommers' critics. Either find someone to agree with your changes and get consensus on the talk page, or else stop reverting the article back to your version. ImprovingWiki (talk) 20:54, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Asking for a third opinion would not be a bad idea. See WP:THIRDOPINION. ImprovingWiki (talk) 01:07, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Are there any sources which characterize her as a feminist? I've taken a look at some of the sources, and none of them describe her using that term without qualification. aprock (talk) 20:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Sommers has repeatedly called herself a feminist. The obsession with disputing that self-characterization seems bizarre to me, and I'm definitely not seeing any legitimate reason for it. ImprovingWiki (talk) 21:00, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Again, do you have a specific source for that? aprock (talk) 21:02, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Read her. It's not my responsibility to do your homework for you. Forgive me, but it's tedious to get dragged into some Wiki-speak conversation. ImprovingWiki (talk) 21:03, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

No, you don't have to do my howework for me. I already did it, and could not find a single source which referred to her as a feminist without qualification. Now, if you want to add content to the article which describes her as such, it's up to you to find an appropriate source. aprock (talk) 21:06, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

For the record, reasonable sources which describe her brand of feminism include:

• "freedom feminist": http://reason.com/archives/2014/01/12/can-christina-hoff-sommers-save-feminism
• "freedom feminist": http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/how-to-get-more-women-and-men-to-call-themselves-feminists/277179/
• "equity feminism": http://www.scottlondon.com/interviews/sommers.html

aprock (talk) 21:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Further, FAIR states "Sommers claims that she's a feminist, and journalists have largely taken her at her word. She has been identified as such on television, and many of the reviews of Who Stole Feminism? ran under headlines such as "Rebel in the Sisterhood" (Boston Globe, 6/16/94) or "A Feminist on the Outs" (Time, 8/1/94)." Their only criticism of this identification by both Sommers and others is a dubious quote already addressed in the Misplaced Pages article. See the end of the link. Willhesucceed (talk) 12:40, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Some (older?) review articles have called Sommers a self-proclaimed feminist, many others have described her as anti-feminist. The scholarly literature is even clearer in that Sommers is anti-feminist. You seem to be interested in GamerGate stuff and I hope that we can all agree that this article isn't the place for GamerGate activism just because Sommers commented on the controversy. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 21:39, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I think that it's fair to say that there's a consensus in academic sources that Sommers is anti-feminist (or "pseudofeminist"). Examples include

• "Anti-feminist boy-crisis trailblazer Christina Hoff Sommers helped solidify the industry with her 2000 The War Against Boys..."
• "By far the most sustained fusillade against feminism as the cause of boys' woes comes from Christina Hoff Sommers, formerly a philosophy professor and now a resident anti-feminist pundit at the American Enterprise Institute.“
• "...hypotheses of the philosopher and anti-feminist Christine Hoff Sommers."
• "...anti-feminist polemicists like Katie Roiphe or Christina Hoff Sommers."
• "Interestingly, like Sarah Palin, some of the most outspoken female anti-feminists since the 1990s have presented themselves as feminists: writer Christina Hoff Sommers considers herself a “legitimate feminist”, as opposed to “gender feminists”...
• "Another assault on feminism within postfeminist discourses comes from antifeminist (self-defined) feminists, such as ... Christina Hoff Sommers..."
• "...anti-feminist crusaders from Rush Limbaugh and Lionel Tiger to Camille Paglia and Christina Hoff Sommers..."
• "The arguments of Christina Hoff Sommers (2000) and Michael Gurian (2002) fall into that category identified earlier with 'men's rights'/recuperative masculinity theorists which has a particular anti-feminist stance."
• "It has done more, ironically enough, for antifeminists like Christina Hoff Sommers, who, it's safe to say, would not have become a tenured professor of philosophy..."

I could go on. The point is that while we can and should state that Sommers considers herself a "freedom feminist" or "equity feminist" or whatever, we also need to make sure that the scholarly consensus is represented in the article. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 21:39, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Why would you say those sources are "scholarly"? Arkon (talk) 00:42, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Because all but one were written and edited by scholars (e.g., Martino, Johnson, Anderson, Pojansky, Kimmel, Kehler, Weaver-Hightower, Wainwright, Mendible, Cahill, Francis, Skelton) and/or because they were published in university presses (Oxford, Harvard, Rutgers, NYU) or by other academic publishers (Routledge, SCM Press). --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 15:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Despite the link to a footnote of a 1994 FAIR article, I think the broader view of her is that she is by no means a traditional feminist. The sources above clearly illustrate this. aprock (talk) 16:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Then again there are other feminists that would get in a heated debate with each other like queer feminists and TERFs, but it's quite clear Sommers' faction is more marginal than that. Not a true Scotsman in any case, and that view should be noted in the article as well. --Pudeo' 10:43, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I see no reason to discuss anything with editors who insist on using biased sources - in this case, articles or books by Sommers's ideological enemies - to dispute her self-characterization. Their behavior is bad manners and in bad taste, and it's a good example of the kind of thing that gives Misplaced Pages a poor reputation. On reflection, however, I couldn't care less whether Sommers is described as a feminist or not. I have therefore reverted the lead back to the version that existed before the recent dispute. I hope that resolves matters. I have also boldly removed the "neutrality disputed" tag. ImprovingWiki (talk) 00:21, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Clean up

I went through the article and did a bunch of clean up. Most notably, I created individual sections for the covered books, merged the reception for each book in the appropriate section, and removed the controversy section. The controversy section was basically a mess. The source was all very weak, and did not rely on any broader work to define how significant these events were in her career. The sources indicated that these were all short lived controversies which consumed some media attention, but were not defining aspects of her work. WP:BLP requires much better sourcing for content, and controversy sections are generally frowned upon. Adding some of the content back to the article in context should be fine. The challenge would be determining how prominent these events are in the scope of her career. For that we would need a good overview article of CHS to cite. aprock (talk) 16:48, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I doubt that you are going to find anything of that kind, frankly. I'm not sure how good the reasons were for removing that material, but if it takes "context" to restore it, then I predict that you won't find it. ImprovingWiki (talk) 20:37, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Identification, scare quotes, weasel words

She identifies as a feminist and there is "No true Scotsman" test for that. Her views on feminism are sought after almost exclusively so the argument she is not a feminist is extremely dubious. There is no one "feminist" test. She self-identifies as a feminist. No other feminists are bracketed into a sub-feminist genre so her identification is enough. Period. End of discussion (it's the same with "TERF" - we don't decide "TERF" vs. "Feminist"). The lede focuses too much on what others think she is against rather than what she has stated she is for. In the body, it says "she claims to her students" while the more neutral source for that uses the term "explains to her students." Rather than state an ideology of a reviewer that is made without any sourcing, it is preferred to just identify the reviewer. All of this is correcting a negative false light narrative which is against BLP policy. --DHeyward (talk) 03:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Courtesy ping @ImprovingWiki: as I am not sure the edit shows as a revert. --DHeyward (talk) 04:05, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Did you even bother to read the discussion above? There is no consensus to call Sommers a feminist in the article. Personally, I simply don't care about that issue, but you certainly have no right to call Sommers a feminist in the article when there is no agreement for that. It's dumb and childish to say things like "End of discussion" on Misplaced Pages. This is a collaborative project, where no one person is in command, and it matters what your fellow editors think. Even if there were a good case for calling Sommers a feminist, it's simply silly to suggest that it's a BLP violation not to do so; whether to identify her as a feminist or not is partly a matter of editorial judgment. Incidentally, BLP does not mean, despite what you seem to think given your edit summary here, that "negative information is to be removed." WP:BLP does not say anything like that, and a moment's thought would show that such an approach could never be followed (otherwise, it would be impossible to write articles about criminals, for example). Rather, it means that any "negative" material in the article must be carefully cited, proportionate, and of encyclopedic relevance. ImprovingWiki (talk) 06:14, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

I see you don't even try to justify most of your changes. What was the BLP reason for adding the words " which she calls 'victim feminization' " to the lead supposed to be? As far as I can see, that's simply unnecessary verbiage and does not improve the article at all. Please stop adding it. ImprovingWiki (talk) 06:14, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Considering that a brand new editor has just showed up and made an edit similar to yours here, you might want to see WP:MEAT, among other policies. ImprovingWiki (talk) 10:55, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I read the discussion above. They mistakenly believe feminism is a judgement call by the editor. Like other groups that don't have an inclusion criteria, we defer to the person making the claim - we don't exclude them. There are many examples - we don't even question self-identified women, let alone a feminist that makes living as a feminist author, speaker and professor. We don't distinguish TERFs from feminists either. Or even just radical feminists. Leave off the conditional aspect as if she is not a "true" feminist. We then can use other sources to explain her feminist positions and also critics. I added "what she calls 'victim feminization'" because it's taken directly from the source used for the lead and "equity feminist" is not. Also, it is about an idea, not a person. It doesn't make any claims or qualifiers about another feminist. Before my edit, it was negative in tone and balance. Instead of explaining her views, it was nearly all about her critics' views of her. You can get stuffed on your meat puppet claims. --DHeyward (talk) 16:09, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

The label needs to be a reliably sourced one. Her calling herself a feminist is not enough to make her a feminist, especially when the weight of reliable sources describes her as an anti-feminist. aprock (talk) 18:58, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd think that WP:BLPPRIMARY certainly applies in this instance, especially because they run a Youtube webshow with the username 'The Factual Feminist' and ascribes to what she calls 'Equity feminism.' Just because some sources have disputed that doesn't mean she's all of a sudden not a feminist. This discussion also reeks of what I think of as a misuse of sources. I'm sure we can find a ton of sources that dispute Barrack Obama's status as non-American, but that's not present in the article. Ultimately, I believe that her word should be the final say in terms of identification. She identifies as a feminist, and therefore is. Now, there is an argument to be made that for certain things, she ascribes to the label but uses it as sort of an identity politics sort of thing. Like, claiming to be a Staunch conservative and proposing things like universal healthcare, total reforms of everything, da da da. That can be important to note, but the ultimate identity methinks should be feminist. Maybe those sources can elaborate on her overall views, but I don't think we can deny her the label. Tutelary (talk) 20:23, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, WP:BLPPRIMARY applies. You are going to need to come up with sources more robust than "youtube username". aprock (talk) 22:58, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

I sourced it to the Stanford article that cites her work numerous times as a classical liberal feminist. There are many varieties of feminists in the literature. Even our handy feminism template lists all sorts of feminist positions and theories. Feminists critical of other feminists doesn't make one or the other less so. There is no standard bearer or mantle from which the label is drawn. --DHeyward (talk) 23:03, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

That source does not describe Sommers as a feminist. aprock (talk) 23:07, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Also, as per above , there is a significant body of sources which describe her as anti-feminist. If you want to apply some sort of label to her, it's up to you to find high quality mainstream sources which establish that label. As it stands, the article is better served by not trying to label her. aprock (talk)

It absolutely does both explicitly and as scholarly reference. See section entitled "Classical-Liberal or Libertarian Feminist Works", and see "Some equity feminists are socially conservative (Morse 2001; Sommers 2000)." "Some equity feminists argue ...(Sommers 2007)" and there are more. Sommers argues the equity feminist points in her works whence the references aren't that Sommers observed equity feminists, rather the Stanford piece uses her work as an example of equity feminist views. She is also not the only one they use. Other sources are free to characterize her views any way they want as she can also criticize theirs. We are certainly not going to put Sommers "victimization" views in other feminist BLPs though so we should not be so quick to put her critics views here as if they were stone tablets. --DHeyward (talk) 23:19, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

You're confusing citing someone with describing someone. aprock (talk) 23:22, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

That's why I explained they were citing them as holding the position, not as observers. It's why the citations are broken out as "Liberal Feminism" and "Classical-Liberal or Libertarian". That occurs when they are attributing ideology, not just citation. Read Wendy McElroy as she is cited exactly the same way and it is the coverage of her views. It's nearly comical to claim that the phrase she coined to describe her views doesn't apply to her. "Equity feminists" exist and she is why they are called that. --DHeyward (talk) 23:49, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Your explanation amounts to editor synthesis. Not a proper use of sources. aprock (talk) 00:05, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

A quick search reveals an IAmA (sort of like an interview) on Reddit where you considers herself an equity feminist; http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1nqdqp/i_am_christina_hoff_sommers_author_of_who_stole/ The IAmA was confirmed by her and as a result, it can be stated that yes, she self identifies as an equity feminist. Per WP:BLPSELFPUB, it's suitable to use this source since all of the criteria is met. Sure it's not third party or secondary, it's primary. But it's unambiguous of her nature. Tutelary (talk) 01:16, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

That she is an equity feminist is not at all in dispute, and is already mentioned in the lead. I'm not entirely sure that reddit AMAs are a reasonable source for any article, let alone a WP:BLP. aprock (talk) 01:26, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Again, see WP:BLPSELFPUB. It's suitable for claims about their person, as long as those criteria are met. So what is in dispute then? I just saw you remove any mention of it. Tutelary (talk) 01:28, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

From the AMA: "I walked onto that ship a liberal feminist and came off- let me just say- confused". It's not clear how you are going to use that to support her being a feminist. As noted just above, her support of equity feminism is already in the lead. aprock (talk) 01:36, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Moving further from the first question, the first answer is I consider myself an equity feminist. An equity feminist wants for women what she wants for everyone: fairness, dignity, liberty, opportunity. Her 'support' of it =/= her actually being one imho. Tutelary (talk) 01:38, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

As noted twice above, there is already a discussion of equity feminism in the lead. aprock (talk) 03:45, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Just so there is no confusion, "equity feminists" are "feminists" just as "TERFs" are "feminists". I am open to "feminist scholar" as her writings are widely cited in nearly all circles of feminism. The fact she criticizes U.S. feminists while such things as female circumcision is protected by law in other countries doesn't make her less of a feminist. In fact, many believe eradicating government backed sexism (i.e. slavery, prostitution, female circumcision and laws forbidding education) in third-world countries is more pressing than issues facing women in the U.S. Feminist ideology is diverse. --DHeyward (talk) 02:14, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate that you have your own personal opinions on the matter. You're going to have to come up with an actual source if you want to support content for this article. aprock (talk) 03:45, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I have looked at recent changes to the article. I find many of them to be unhelpful and quite destructive, and I regret that there has been no discussion of most of them. It does not improve the article in any way to add the words "which she calls "victim feminization" " to the lead. That is simply bad writing, and I am going to remove it in the absence of any convincing argument for inclusion. Part of the lead has been altered, so that the words "Sommers labels herself an "equity feminist" who faults contemporary feminism for "its irrational hostility to men, its recklessness with facts and statistics and its inability to take seriously the possibility that the sexes are equal but different"" have been replaced by, " Sommers supports "equity feminism", which "promotes fair treatment, respect and dignity for all woman."" That, too, is a clearly unhelpful change, and again I am going to remove it if no one can justify or defend it. Obviously, all feminists would say that they are in favor of those things, so that doesn't help the reader in any way or explain why Sommers's views are controversial. If anything, it amounts to trying to hide the controversy, which does a serious disservice to readers. ImprovingWiki (talk) 03:58, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Stanford Encyclopedia

The article currently reads: "The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy categorizes Sommers' "equity feminist" views as libertarian and socially conservative." While Sommers' works are cited in the encyclopedia, her views are not discussed. As her views are already well sourced and discussed in extensive detail in the following paragraph, this content is both redundant, and not properly sourced. I will remove it in due course. aprock (talk) 04:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I looked at the SEP, and you are obviously correct. I have removed some of that material myself; a case could be made for removing more. ImprovingWiki (talk) 06:59, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

BS. Her works are her views. Her views are cited through her works. The citation style shows that. Did you note that the reference section was broken out by view? That is done only when the analysis is of the views of the authors. That's the "camps" method of attribution. It's splitting hairs otherwise and the Stanford piece does not do that. Do you go to the Einstein page and claim he disputed relativity because reviews of his work are only citations and not what he believed? We should start taking away Nobel prizes immediately if this this fallacy of attribution holds up. --DHeyward (talk) 11:49, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

No, it's not "BS", it's the truth. Aprock is right. You obviously have no idea how to interpret sources or use them responsibly. You always need to be careful to avoid reading more into a source than is really there. The Stanford Encyclopedia does cite Sommers's books, but it does not discuss her views. It's absolutely crucial to make that distinction. It's just dumb to say that "the citation style shows" that it discusses her views. Everything in a BLP needs to be sourced as reliably and as cautiously as possible; by relying on arguments about the citation style of a source, you are showing that you are on weak ground. ImprovingWiki (talk) 23:37, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Please go down to the bibliography. You will see she is cited differently for works not putting the label "feminist". She is cited as "Classical-Liberal or Libertarian Feminist Works" for her works that are "feminist" and attributed as her work. She is cited as "Additional Sources" when it is of the type Aprock uses above. There is also a citation for "Liberal Feminism Works" where she is not cited. That is how "adherent" citation style works. There would be no reason to have four separate sections in the bibliography. Nor would they separate out her other works that were attributing a view to her. She coined the term "Equity feminist" and described herself with it in the book. Now, others describe themselves with it. A compromise is "feminist scholar" as she is undoubtedly one (google scholar lists her first book on feminism as being cited over 700 times). Wendy McElroy is also a feminist. If anything, surely you can that the Stanford piece citing her work where she says she is an equity feminist is at least reliable? --DHeyward (talk) 00:26, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it would help if you quoted the portion of the encyclopedia you think is relevant. As best I can tell, you're just performing editory WP:SYNTHESIS, which is not appropriate. aprock (talk) 01:37, 22 November 2014 (UTC) {Here:

Classical-Liberal or Libertarian Feminist Works

Sommers, Christina Hoff (2007). “The Subjection of Islamic Women.” Weekly Standard Vol. 12, No. 34. Sommers, Christina Hoff (2002). ‘The Case against Ratifying the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW).’ Government Testimony to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, published by American Enterprise Institute. ––– (2000). The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism is Harming Our Young Men. New York: Simon and Schuster. ––– (1994). Who Stole Feminism? How Women Have Betrayed Women. New York: Simon and Schuster.

Please note the attribution is to works by feminists, not works on feminism. There is a seperate section for works that are topical but not attributable to feminists. Stanford explicitly labels her a feminist. --DHeyward (talk) 02:13, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

You say that those are works by feminists, but the article does not make that claim. Please take care in being sure that you aren't reading more into the source than what is actually written. aprock (talk) 02:51, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

What is ambiguous to you about "Feminist Works?" It is English. It's in the article. If it listed "Renaissance Painter Works" and listed a bunch of paintings, would you argue the painters themselves weren't Renaissance Painters? It's an absurd reading to deny the Stanford posit that she is a "Classical-Liberal or Libertarian Feminist" as they list her as such. In addition, she self-identifies as an "equity feminist" and a "democrat." I don't see the reasoning behind denying her any of that. --DHeyward (talk) 03:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Are those works by feminists, or works about feminists? The encyclopedia isn't clear about this. As you say, she identifies herself as an equity feminist, and that is what is in the lead. aprock (talk) 03:08, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Obviously "by feminists" as they break up the camps of feminists and also cite works that are "about feminists" is in the "other" section. There are four sections of citations (liberal feminists, other works about liberal feminists, libertarian feminists, other works about libertarian feminists). Note that Sommers has works in both the sections attributed "to libertarian feminists" and the "other" section. The author was careful to cite what was "by feminists" and "other." The fact Sommers is in both showa that the source meticulously identified whether it was the author or the subject. --DHeyward (talk) 03:30, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

DHeyward, you obviously just don't get it. We need to use the highest-quality sources in BLPs, and we need to use them as cautiously and as responsibly as possible. You are plain wrong in thinking that it is acceptable for the article to say something like, "The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy categorizes Sommers' "equity feminist" views as libertarian and socially conservative". The fact is that it doesn't, and going on about citation styles isn't a valid response. You are trying to read something into the source that is not really there, and that is unacceptable. I suggest taking the issue to the BLP noticeboard. There experienced editors will tell you that you are wrong. Listen to them. ImprovingWiki (talk) 04:00, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

IW, Are you even reading the edits? I just add "feminist scholar" in the first sentence. Surely you are not so obtuse that being references in a 750+ scholarly sources on feminism and being identified as a feminist in a analytical piece and self-identifying as a feminist isn't enough to say she is a "feminist scholar" in the opening sentence? really? Do you consider the label negative? Why are you denying the reality of all the references, self identification and scholarly analysis. The "anti-feminist" label is very negative and not nearly as supportable as "feminist scholar." If you knew anything about BLP policy, it would move you to strike anti-feminist long before striking feminist scholar. --DHeyward (talk) 19:42, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

BTW, I'm the editor that struck Sommers out of the Stanford line so it now reads ""The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy categorizes "equity feminist" views as libertarian and socially conservative." --DHeyward (talk) 19:50, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Again, the source does not make the claim that she is a feminist scholar. That is your interpretation. aprock (talk) 22:41, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Even if the source had called equity feminism "conservative" the position of that sentence is highly suspect. As written, the article calls equity feminism convervative before it even explains the basic concept of equity feminism. I don't think that sentence is supported by the source at all; it seems like a fairly obvious attempt to discredit Sommers before the reader has a basic understand of what she is about. Even if it was sourced, it doesn't even make sense to use as the first sentence. We should state her views first, then talk about how others categorize them. 107.179.240.80 (talk) 00:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Sommers does not 'make the case for moral conservation'

Regarding this sentence: "In an article for the textbook, Moral Soundings, Sommers makes the case for moral conservation and traditional values."

First, the sentence is repeated.

Second, it is not an accurate summary of what the source said. This sentence, is misrepresenting the source to make it seem like Sommers is some sort of pro-life bible thumper who promotes conservative political ideas (e.g. pro-life, anti-premarital-sex, pro-religion, etc).

The only relevant thing the source says is, "Christina Hoff Sommers, in chapter 17, seems to rely on such a view when she argues that contemporary students' lack of grounding our moral traditions inhibits their capacity for judgment."

This is not 'promoting traditional values'. It's just saying that knowing your history and the traditions of your people helps your judgment. It says nothing at all about traditional values and whether we should follow them - only that we should know them, so we know where we come from.

Sommers has a piece written earlier in the book, but if I'm not mistaken, we can't just summarize it because that would be original research? If that's what we're citing, we should link to it. And anyway, the same point would apply; she does not make a case for following traditional values - only for knowing them.

In conclusion, this sentence should be removed (both copies) as it does not reflect what the (extremely weak, one-sentence) source says.107.179.240.80 (talk) 05:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for drawing attention to this issue. ImprovingWiki (talk) 05:13, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll remove this sentence. It does, indeed, seem to be a weak source for a view that she does not seem to have stated explicitly. Metamagician3000 (talk) 00:57, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for removing it Metamagician3000; if you review the discussion above, you will see that there is more questionable material that may need removing. ImprovingWiki (talk) 03:30, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Typo

Minor point, but: in the first section of the Ideas and Views section, there is an unclosed quotation mark around the phrase "equity feminist." Can someone who can edit the page fix this please? (Page is currently protected or I'd fix this myself) Fyddlestix (talk) 01:25, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

First sentence

We have "equity feminist"in the lede but not the first sentence where it belongs as that is what she is most known for. "equity feminist", "feminist" or "feminist scholar" are all reasonable descriptions of what she is known for. There are sources for all three. Pick one. --DHeyward (talk) 02:05, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

There is no consensus to call Sommers a feminist, and you know that. Why do you care so much about this? It's a total irrelevance to me whether Sommers is called a feminist or not. ImprovingWiki (talk) 02:52, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

It's her most notable aspect and contribution that make her notable (750+ references in Google scholar to her first book, many secondary references to the term "equity femininst"). Why do people want to bury it? She is not known for anything but feminist works whether you agree or disagree with her style of feminism is beside the point. "feminist scholar" is adequate but her most notable accomplishment should be in the first sentence. --DHeyward (talk) 03:00, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Rubbish. Sommers is mainly notable because she wrote a book attacking one kind of feminism in the 1990s. The book and the attack are what make her notable, not her being a feminist, which is a debatable and rather uninteresting point. ImprovingWiki (talk) 03:20, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

That's incorrect. Her book categorized types of feminists and she identified with a type. That type is notable today and referenced. Do you remove the "feminist" label from authors that attack "equity feminism" or do you only have a problem with equity feminists? --DHeyward (talk) 03:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Line 22

Christina Hoff Sommers (/ˈsʌmərz/; born 1950) is an American author and former philosophy professor known for her opposition to late 20th-century feminism in contemporary American culture.

should be reverted to

Christina Hoff Sommers (/ˈsʌmərz/; born 1950) is an American author, feminist, and former philosophy professor known for her opposition to late 20th-century feminism, which she calls "victim feminization," in contemporary American culture.

The former casts her as an opponent of feminism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.56.148.111 (talk • contribs) 02:57, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

No, the article should not be reverted from one version to the other. Either version could be questioned. Discussion needs to take place first. In my opinion, the version the IP editor thinks the article should be reverted to is the result of rather inept and destructive editing. There is certainly no advantage to adding mumbo-jumbo like "victim feminization" to the lead; who knows what it's even supposed to mean? ImprovingWiki (talk) 03:25, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I think everything in that sentence after 'professor' can go. The next sentences introduce her books and ideas sufficiently; we don't need to pack the same information in distorted form into the first sentence. Good writing is generally one idea per sentence. Casimirin (talk) 03:30, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

CHSommers disputing content of article.

Ms Sommers today tweeted "My Misplaced Pages profile has been attacked. Now full of errors and mischaracterizations. Who did this? What can I do?." With respect to WP:BLP, what is the procedure when the subject disputes the content? She is clearly not WP savvy so she would not be able to initiate on-site dispute resolution process. Maybe the regular editors could follow this up in the interest of WP:BLP. Thanks Jgm74 (talk) 03:24, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for drawing attention to that. Unfortunately, since Sommers does not explain what she considers the errors and mischaracterizations to be, her comments are not very helpful. I suppose that's partly a limitation of Twitter. ImprovingWiki (talk) 03:28, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

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