| Revision as of 20:05, 2 December 2014 view sourceNorthBySouthBaranof (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers33,477 edits →Lede improvement← Previous edit | Revision as of 20:08, 2 December 2014 view source NorthBySouthBaranof (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers33,477 edits →Lede improvement: subsectNext edit → | ||
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| :::::::::It may not be the core position of any particular person you ask, but it is certainly the core of the events that have transpired (per RSes) and the core of what has made Gamergate notable in the first place (again per RSes). ] <sup>'']''</sup> 19:58, 2 December 2014 (UTC) | :::::::::It may not be the core position of any particular person you ask, but it is certainly the core of the events that have transpired (per RSes) and the core of what has made Gamergate notable in the first place (again per RSes). ] <sup>'']''</sup> 19:58, 2 December 2014 (UTC) | ||
| ===Formal proposal for consensus-gathering=== | |||
| ⚫ | |||
| OK, here's what I formally propose: | |||
| ⚫ | {{tq|The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014, centering on a debate about ]. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture. The movement's targeting of primarily female individuals in the video game industry for harassment and threats has been broadly condemned as sexist and misogynistic.}} | ||
| This addresses DHeyward's concern — one which I believe is fair — that the current version does not properly attribute the "misogyny" and "harassment" aspects directly to the movement, and instead appears to apply it to video gaming culture as a whole. ] (]) 20:05, 2 December 2014 (UTC) | |||
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Reversion of Halfhat's recent edits in the draft
I made this revert (which in retrospect could probably have been less wholesale) because the effect is to remove or downplay references to sexism and misogyny in the characterisation of certain harassment in the article's lead. This is already well attested in the sources and discussed in detail in the body of the article. I would ask all editors, at this well developed stage of editing, to please not make such drastic changes without careful consideration of the facts we are describing. --TS 14:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- The intent was to make it more clinical and less emotional. I'll review what I've done to see if I went about it the right way. HalfHat 14:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- What significant facts did I remove? They seemed to me to convey little other than opinion and emotion, maybe removal was wrong, I probably should have came up with a different wording. HalfHat 14:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I think the problem is these two edits. If we want to be more neutral in the wording I think we can do better then just deleting the wording (something like 'widely seen as or reported as etc...) — Strongjam (talk) 14:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I wasn't too sure what actual information they were trying to convey. HalfHat 14:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Trying to describe the nature of the harassment (i.e. gender based threats and insults, with some anti-feminist rhetoric thrown in.) — Strongjam (talk) 15:01, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I wasn't too sure what actual information they were trying to convey. HalfHat 14:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I think the problem is these two edits. If we want to be more neutral in the wording I think we can do better then just deleting the wording (something like 'widely seen as or reported as etc...) — Strongjam (talk) 14:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- What significant facts did I remove? They seemed to me to convey little other than opinion and emotion, maybe removal was wrong, I probably should have came up with a different wording. HalfHat 14:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- While we talk this out would you be willing to cut the word severe? I don't see how this at all benefits the conveying of the facts? HalfHat 15:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm more attached to severe then I am to misogynistic. The level of harassment is notable (it's probably the only reason this article is on Misplaced Pages.) I think we can do better then misogynistic though, I read it as a description of the type of harassment, but I realize others read it as a description of intent. — Strongjam (talk) 15:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'd suggest using gendered. My problem with severe is that it sounds like it's saying how bad it is. We could use weasel words of course. HalfHat 15:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- only if we toss out what all of the reliable sources have determined. We are not going to do that. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:34, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I was going to suggest gender-based. Instead of severe we could use something like Quinn was then subjected to large amount of gender-based harassment ..., but I think we can just go with severe or intense I believe either one is used in our sources. For the second edit was thinking we could rewrite Often expressly anti-feminist and frequently misogynistic, these attacks heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community. with These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.? Trying to avoid assigning motives and stick to the contents of the attacks. Not sure about the word rhetoric though, I also thought sentiment might work. Or we could weasel word it a bit and say something like These attacks often include what is reported as ..., but I'm not a big fan of that. — Strongjam (talk) 15:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Why would we not cover the motives when the reliable sources do? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm actually fine with it as-is. Just trying to suggest alternative wording that I'd also find acceptable. — Strongjam (talk) 15:42, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- For one thing I'm not sure the various new articles really have much weight on the complex issue of intent and motives. It's not been studied in a court of law or widely accepted psychology/sociology papers yet. The words they use are not always suitable for us because they can be more emotionally loaded, this can be used to convey opinion. HalfHat 16:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- A reason to consider not making a judgement on the motives is because we're trying to write a neutral encyclopedia article on the topic. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:20, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- a neutral article at Misplaced Pages is one that presents what the reliable sources have determined about the subject. So do you have actually policy based rationale? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not new here. You want to include reliable source opinion on the topic, others are arguing, perhaps rightly and perhaps not, that the opinion from reliable sources be left out for neutrality reasons. If that's unreasonable, it's on you to explain why that opinion deserves to be reflected instead of a simple neutral accounting. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- If you are not new here, i dont understand why you keep attempting to push the position that "well, even though all of the reliable sources say X, we should say Y instead." WP:OR / WP:V / WP:UNDUE are all pretty damn clear that that is NOT what we do and NOT how we achieve ""neutrality". Unless you have some sekrit content policy that supports your vision, its not gonna happen and you need to stop wasting everyone's time and all these poor poor pixels. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not new here. You want to include reliable source opinion on the topic, others are arguing, perhaps rightly and perhaps not, that the opinion from reliable sources be left out for neutrality reasons. If that's unreasonable, it's on you to explain why that opinion deserves to be reflected instead of a simple neutral accounting. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- a neutral article at Misplaced Pages is one that presents what the reliable sources have determined about the subject. So do you have actually policy based rationale? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:47, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- Why would we not cover the motives when the reliable sources do? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:40, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'd suggest using gendered. My problem with severe is that it sounds like it's saying how bad it is. We could use weasel words of course. HalfHat 15:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'm more attached to severe then I am to misogynistic. The level of harassment is notable (it's probably the only reason this article is on Misplaced Pages.) I think we can do better then misogynistic though, I read it as a description of the type of harassment, but I realize others read it as a description of intent. — Strongjam (talk) 15:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
| These Hitler comparisons need to stop; it's not productive and is inflammatory. Either quit or be sanctioned. Dreadstar ☥ 07:11, 26 November 2014 (UTC) |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I believe that gender based harassment would be appropriate. The article should be focused, not based on strong non-neutral wording. Tutelary (talk) 19:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
I suggest that we stay with the original wording, which is a correct summary of the overwhelming opinion of reliable sources, as expressed in the body of the article. --TS 01:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Hitler is evil/Did evil things is easy to find RSs for, doesn't mean Misplaced Pages should say those thngs. HalfHat 18:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
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Is there any objection, or suggestion for improvement, to Strongjam's suggestion of replacing, Often expressly anti-feminist and frequently misogynistic, these attacks heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community. with These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.? I support it because it reads much less loaded and more encyclopaedic, and puts more emphasis on the facts. HalfHat 16:57, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Support - yes, it sounds better, thank you. starship.paint ~ regal 23:59, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Support - Unnecessary adverbs, sounds fine without them. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:09, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I've given it a go in the draft article. I think it's fairly non-controversial, but no hurt feelings if it's reverted and needs more discussion. — Strongjam (talk) 01:40, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I think a better wording from "These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community." would be "These attacks often include both anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric, with the direct result being heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny as it exists in the gaming community."Kitsunedawn (talk) 08:40, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I support the final wording listed here above the others. It's not fully encyclopedic but at least it doesn't violate NPOV too badly. I would suggest, however, that: 'Media coverage has focused largely on anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric contained within a number of these messages, with the direct result being heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny, particularly with reference to the gaming community.' Indeed, this deals with the NPOV issue and sums up the general media consensus without appearing to lend additional support to it, which is not the purpose of Misplaced Pages. Theduinoelegy (talk) 01:51, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think a better wording from "These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community." would be "These attacks often include both anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric, with the direct result being heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny as it exists in the gaming community."Kitsunedawn (talk) 08:40, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Recent IGDA "scandal"
DigiTimes reported on the recent scandal that IGDA endorsed "A Twitter tool to block some of the worst offenders in the recent wave of harassment", which "has been criticized for its crude algorithm" and "generates a high number of false positives".
They also report on the fears of the developers:
'However, the most significant impact is being felt in the games development community itself. Several developers have already come forward to express their concerns that being incorrectly branded for actions they have not committed could have long lasting, if not career ending, consequences. And these fears could have merit. Even before IGDA lent its support to the block list, some developers had floated the idea that the list could be used to perform "background checks" on future job applicants. Also back in October, Ernest W Adams, the founder of IGDA notably tweeted, "If you're an indie developer and you are supporting #GamerGate, watch what you say. Your future business is at stake."'
Furthermore, they mention the "Give Voice to the Voiceless" campaign (probably less interesting?). Racuce (talk) 23:36, 26 November 2014 (UTC) Add this to the article. --Artman40 (talk) 23:42, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- A tool that never worked and nobody used and was covered only by a niche press. Given the extreme length of the article already, what is less important that would be removed to make room for this? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:32, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- It seems wrong to claim that nobody used it when it was adopted by ones like the IGDA and the Raspberry Pi Foundation. I do agree that there is hardly space for this to be included, considering its lack of importance. Eldritcher (talk) 01:54, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- It has significant importance, no matter if anti-GamerGate sites and Misplaced Pages users covered it or not. --Artman40 (talk) 10:50, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- I support including it if it gets more attention from the industry that it affects, or more significant details (f.ex. people being denied employment as a result of it) appear. Eldritcher (talk) 11:56, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- It's definitely a detail that without add'l coverage, really would be difficult to include. --MASEM (t) 01:58, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- If anything, I'd include a mention of "The Voice to the Voiceless" campaign under "Diversity and the debate over #NotYourShield" as a response from the users taking part. Eldritcher (talk) 02:01, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- The article is already too long and includes too much back-and-forth over relatively minor claims-and-counterclaims. The purpose of an encyclopedia article isn't to cover every single event that happened related to the subject; rather, we're supposed to provide a broad overview. I would generally say that (given the level of sourcing used for the rest of the article, and the massive amount of stuff we already have from major sources) if something hasn't received significant coverage in a major mainstream media publication, it probably isn't worth inclusion. Otherwise, we'll end up with a disjointed list of everything that's recently been getting upvoted in Reddit or wherever, which isn't likely to produce a readable article. --Aquillion (talk) 02:18, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- And failing to provide good accurate overview, relying on news sites which cite each other and where facts don't match on what the primary sources have to say. http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20141126VL200.html?chid=8&mod=3&q=GAMERGATE Also, this is not an insignificant site. --Artman40 (talk) 11:29, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Digitimes is actually a fairly controversial source. See this and this. I'd love to find something from this year about their standards, but the fact that there isn't anything might be telling, too. It's not the worst source to be suggested for this article, sure, but in a page that is already choked to the gills with quotes and sources for every bit of minutia, this seems unnecessary. Parabolist (talk) 11:57, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- This is merely a repetition of the standard GamerGate mantra, "All of the media is biased except for the sources that agree with us." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:54, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- It is very arguable whether many outlets involved in the controversy, such as Gawker, can be called unbiased. Eldritcher (talk) 12:00, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Then you'll be glad to know that we don't cite Gawker or Kotaku as sources in this article except where they are directly quoted or specifically relevant to a particular claim involving those sites. Instead, we cite sources such as The New York Times, Time, The Washington Post, New Statesman, National Public Radio, Columbia Journalism Review, etc. If your claim is that all of those sources are biased too, then you're simply at odds with how this project works. We base our article content on the predominant viewpoints expressed in mainstream reliable sources. Misplaced Pages is not an alternative media platform to put forward a message that you believe is being ignored by mainstream sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:04, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- I am glad, but my response was just to your generalization. I brought up an example of an arguably biased media source to point out that all negative media isn't indeed free of bias. I am not making a claim that most of them are biased. It is positive whenever sources like the ones you listed are used, instead of ones like Boing Boing and Buzzfeed that are currently present on the article. Eldritcher (talk) 12:29, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Looking over the piece I would say that it seems difficult to say where this could fit into the article. Although this seems to have arisen as a result of the Gamergate controversy, it is only tangentially related to it. If it belongs anywhere I would be sticking it into an open letter to every company in the world explaining that this is why you really need to do your homework before implementing something, beyond that it does not seem to improve the article, or provide clarity as to what the Gamergate controversy is.--SakuraNoSeirei (talk) 12:35, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- The BuzzFeed citation is present to provide an example of one of the "End of the Gamer Identity" opinion columns which has been criticized by Gamergate supporters, so that readers can view that side of the argument, much as we provide links to Erik Kain's criticism of those columns on Forbes.com. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:53, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- I am glad, but my response was just to your generalization. I brought up an example of an arguably biased media source to point out that all negative media isn't indeed free of bias. I am not making a claim that most of them are biased. It is positive whenever sources like the ones you listed are used, instead of ones like Boing Boing and Buzzfeed that are currently present on the article. Eldritcher (talk) 12:29, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Then you'll be glad to know that we don't cite Gawker or Kotaku as sources in this article except where they are directly quoted or specifically relevant to a particular claim involving those sites. Instead, we cite sources such as The New York Times, Time, The Washington Post, New Statesman, National Public Radio, Columbia Journalism Review, etc. If your claim is that all of those sources are biased too, then you're simply at odds with how this project works. We base our article content on the predominant viewpoints expressed in mainstream reliable sources. Misplaced Pages is not an alternative media platform to put forward a message that you believe is being ignored by mainstream sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:04, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- It is very arguable whether many outlets involved in the controversy, such as Gawker, can be called unbiased. Eldritcher (talk) 12:00, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Our goal, as an encyclopedia, is not 'accuracy' in the sense that you mean. It isn't to universally repeat what every single potential primary source says. It is, rather, to give an accurate overview of what the most reputable sources say on a subject; of course this means covering a variety of points of view, but we can only say what the reputable sources do. Otherwise, every editor with an axe to grind could come into a controversial article, flood it with whatever cherry-picked sources they've dug up that say what they want it to say, and justify the fact that they are giving eg. a random blog post weight equal to the New York Times by saying that they believe the blog post tells the truth and the Times doesn't. We can cite relatively minor publications when it's to establish their views, but even then, with something as noisy as this I would usually want to establish that their views are relevant or representative by citing a reliable source first (since there's a huge number of people commenting, and the article has sort of suffered from people throwing in every single commentator in order to fire point-counterpoints at each other by proxy.) And in this case, it seems to me that digitimes is neither a reliable source nor one whose views on the topic are particularly noteworthy, so it shouldn't be used in the article -- especially given that your only real argument for including them seems to be "they're telling the truth and the current sources aren't", which, taken from the other direction, amounts to saying "we should rely on them because I agree with them." Obviously that would make them seem reputable to you, but we have to rely on their prominence and history, neither of which point to them being a good source for this subject when compared to the level of sourcing we're using elsewhere. --Aquillion (talk) 14:24, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- And failing to provide good accurate overview, relying on news sites which cite each other and where facts don't match on what the primary sources have to say. http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20141126VL200.html?chid=8&mod=3&q=GAMERGATE Also, this is not an insignificant site. --Artman40 (talk) 11:29, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- The article is already too long and includes too much back-and-forth over relatively minor claims-and-counterclaims. The purpose of an encyclopedia article isn't to cover every single event that happened related to the subject; rather, we're supposed to provide a broad overview. I would generally say that (given the level of sourcing used for the rest of the article, and the massive amount of stuff we already have from major sources) if something hasn't received significant coverage in a major mainstream media publication, it probably isn't worth inclusion. Otherwise, we'll end up with a disjointed list of everything that's recently been getting upvoted in Reddit or wherever, which isn't likely to produce a readable article. --Aquillion (talk) 02:18, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- If anything, I'd include a mention of "The Voice to the Voiceless" campaign under "Diversity and the debate over #NotYourShield" as a response from the users taking part. Eldritcher (talk) 02:01, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- It has significant importance, no matter if anti-GamerGate sites and Misplaced Pages users covered it or not. --Artman40 (talk) 10:50, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- It seems wrong to claim that nobody used it when it was adopted by ones like the IGDA and the Raspberry Pi Foundation. I do agree that there is hardly space for this to be included, considering its lack of importance. Eldritcher (talk) 01:54, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
- Newsweek reporting on the list primarily from the IGDA side but including the issues of targeting others (like the IGDA Puetro Rica president). --MASEM (t) 22:53, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Just to reduce confusion I changed the persistent typo from "IDGA" to the proper acronym, "IGDA". (International Game Developers Association)ReynTime (talk) 14:40, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
Suggestion about "Operation Disrespectful Nod"
We should elborate the part "members launched a campaign to convince ad providers to pull support from sites critical of Gamergate". There are sources that describe Gawker becoming the target largely because of the bullying comments. My proposed edit was "members launched a campaign to convince ad providers to pull support from sites that allegedly condone bullying and are critical of Gamergate" and I feel like the edit is small and relevant enough to be included despite us trying to bring the article down in size. Eldritcher (talk) 16:27, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Doesn't the bullying claims apply only to Gawker, also I moved to a different section, I was to keep my discussion general. HalfHat 16:32, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- It seems to be mainly Gawker, but they have also been the primary target during the last month or so. It seems dishonest to not include the detail. I'd be fine with noting that the bullying backlash was against Gawker specifically, but that might take too much space and we're already lacking. Eldritcher (talk) 16:44, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- the most reliable of the sources you list says that it is a "joke about bullying" that caused people to get their panties all twisted and become annoying little shits. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:48, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- It was not perceived as a joke by those in GamerGate so their reason for targeting the advertisers was to still go against bullying. Also, regarding that Twitter link, haven't you yourself said that linking websites like that is pointless even on the talk page because their source value is nonexistent? If you want to use it to support your argument, you need to allow the same from others. Eldritcher (talk) 17:18, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I thought GG was about journalistic ethics? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:15, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- You don't think journalists posting support for bullying is unethical? Regardless, can we get back on topic? Eldritcher (talk) 18:24, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I see the joke as hysterically satirical albiet "tone deaf" ; but not connecting with "ethics" in any meaningful way, nor as a personal twit as connecting with "journalism" in any way. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:47, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- You don't think journalists posting support for bullying is unethical? Regardless, can we get back on topic? Eldritcher (talk) 18:24, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I thought GG was about journalistic ethics? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:15, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- It was not perceived as a joke by those in GamerGate so their reason for targeting the advertisers was to still go against bullying. Also, regarding that Twitter link, haven't you yourself said that linking websites like that is pointless even on the talk page because their source value is nonexistent? If you want to use it to support your argument, you need to allow the same from others. Eldritcher (talk) 17:18, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- the most reliable of the sources you list says that it is a "joke about bullying" that caused people to get their panties all twisted and become annoying little shits. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:48, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- It seems to be mainly Gawker, but they have also been the primary target during the last month or so. It seems dishonest to not include the detail. I'd be fine with noting that the bullying backlash was against Gawker specifically, but that might take too much space and we're already lacking. Eldritcher (talk) 16:44, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- No, I think what we have is just fine. Stating that Gawker "allegedly supports bullying" based upon a tweet that was in bad taste, but was an obvious joke, is unsupported nonsense. The sources you have listed are marginal, at best, compared to the existing sources we have in the section. If anything, that section should be trimmed down at this point, as it's a bit of WP:RECENTISM, really. The media has stopped paying attention and it doesn't seem to have materially affected Gawker. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:38, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- This was not a single tweet, but multiple tweets. Other people from the network also showed support. It received a very large focus from GamerGate. Furthermore, it seems odd to say that the media has stopped paying attention to this when several articles on the topic have been released during the last four days alone. As for Gawker not having been materially affected, an article by Gawker itself states that they have lost thousands and could even lose millions. Full quote: "I've been told that we've lost thousands of dollars already, and could potentially lose thousands more, if not millions." Eldritcher (talk) 21:46, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- You say that "it received a very large focus from Gamergate" — that may be so, but that doesn't appear to have translated into anything actually meaningful. Gawker wrote that post a month ago, there's been no follow-up coverage and the matter appears to be a dead letter as far as the sources go. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:55, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Considering that the contacting of the advertisers is featured on this article and this is the most high profile aspect of it, it should be included. Eldritcher (talk) 22:11, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you're asking, then. We already include a discussion of the fact that Gamergate supporters have contacted advertisers. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:12, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- The description is very lacking because it overlooks the main reason for contacting Gawker's advertisers. Eldritcher (talk) 23:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you're asking, then. We already include a discussion of the fact that Gamergate supporters have contacted advertisers. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:12, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Considering that the contacting of the advertisers is featured on this article and this is the most high profile aspect of it, it should be included. Eldritcher (talk) 22:11, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- You say that "it received a very large focus from Gamergate" — that may be so, but that doesn't appear to have translated into anything actually meaningful. Gawker wrote that post a month ago, there's been no follow-up coverage and the matter appears to be a dead letter as far as the sources go. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:55, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- @NorthBySouthBaranof: Considering how many times I have see that issue about space, why not just split the article and leave the important details on this page? --Super Goku V (talk) 04:11, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- This was not a single tweet, but multiple tweets. Other people from the network also showed support. It received a very large focus from GamerGate. Furthermore, it seems odd to say that the media has stopped paying attention to this when several articles on the topic have been released during the last four days alone. As for Gawker not having been materially affected, an article by Gawker itself states that they have lost thousands and could even lose millions. Full quote: "I've been told that we've lost thousands of dollars already, and could potentially lose thousands more, if not millions." Eldritcher (talk) 21:46, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Split the article into...what? We don't do preferred versions around here. Tarc (talk) 13:59, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I believe he just means that some aspects of the controversy could be split into separate articles in order to cut down on the main article. You're reading too much into it. That said, I'm not sure if the aspects are noteworthy enough on their own. The only one that I could imagine being split is the very case of "Operation Disrespectful Nod" and even then I'm on the edge. Eldritcher (talk) 15:34, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is, there is no sub parts of the controversy that could be logically split off and significantly reduce article length. I really don't think there is a way to split this. HalfHat 16:19, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I believe he just means that some aspects of the controversy could be split into separate articles in order to cut down on the main article. You're reading too much into it. That said, I'm not sure if the aspects are noteworthy enough on their own. The only one that I could imagine being split is the very case of "Operation Disrespectful Nod" and even then I'm on the edge. Eldritcher (talk) 15:34, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Split the article into...what? We don't do preferred versions around here. Tarc (talk) 13:59, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- @Tarc, Eldritcher, and Halfhat: Now that some time has passed, I kind of regret my suggestion though I do believe that something needs to be done in relation to the size issue that comes up every few days. To clarify my question, what I meant was that we have an article with only the important details for the reader with a second article with an expanded focus on the details of the topic. (To be honest, I believe that I might have jumbled up how two articles with related events work together with an article with a separate article on an event related to the first.) After hearing what was said and what I believe, I realized what I am asking might be closer to an addendum than two split articles. Having reread Misplaced Pages:Splitting and Misplaced Pages:Article size, I feel like the article needs a split and that we cannot do a split at this time since we lack enough details. Still, thanks for the replies and sorry for the confusion. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:43, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think what needs done is to cut out a lot of the "Such and such said (s)he thought". However one of the problems here is people will start accusing you of POV pushing, well especially someone like me who's pretty involved and been accused of being an SPA. Maybe we should ask for uninvolved editors to come in and suggest what should be cut. HalfHat 08:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Tarc, Eldritcher, and Halfhat: Now that some time has passed, I kind of regret my suggestion though I do believe that something needs to be done in relation to the size issue that comes up every few days. To clarify my question, what I meant was that we have an article with only the important details for the reader with a second article with an expanded focus on the details of the topic. (To be honest, I believe that I might have jumbled up how two articles with related events work together with an article with a separate article on an event related to the first.) After hearing what was said and what I believe, I realized what I am asking might be closer to an addendum than two split articles. Having reread Misplaced Pages:Splitting and Misplaced Pages:Article size, I feel like the article needs a split and that we cannot do a split at this time since we lack enough details. Still, thanks for the replies and sorry for the confusion. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:43, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
References
- http://www.inquisitr.com/1561606/gamergate-gawker-loses-bmw-mercedes-and-adobe-advertising-due-to-bullying-gamers/
- http://digiday.com/brands/gamergate-experiences-mixed-success/
- http://www.businessinsider.com/adobe-pulls-gawker-sponsorship-2014-10
- http://gawker.com/how-we-got-rolled-by-the-dishonest-fascists-of-gamergat-1649496579
Scrap/Rewrite?
With all the changes that have happened over the course of the movement, would a scrap of the article as it is now, and a complete rewrite (Taking much of the talking points and notes into consideration) be warranted? I'm not the best writer, but I'll see what I can come up with just to field the idea and link it somewhere when I'm not at work. (Which I am now.) Kitsunedawn (talk) 08:43, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I have thought about that, and someone has put work into a possible one, https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Kaciemonster/gamergate . I had some early involvement but ended up going back to working on the main. HalfHat 14:41, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
That's a terrible draftThere are major issues with the draft. BLP claims—including criminal accusations—cited to self-published and unreliable sources (which I've asked Kaciemonster to remove). Also issues with UNDUE, where it seems like every part of the controversy gets eight sentences in two paragraphs, no matter how significant or insignificant. Woodroar (talk) 15:20, 29 November 2014 (UTC)- Agree with Woodroar. Calling false accusations the "Quinnspiracy" rather than "False accusations" is right out. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:28, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'll give it a go on Monday morning sometime after my shift ends, or tomorrow (Sunday, Nov 30). It may not change anything, but with Gamergate largely having run its course, it might not hurt to start over with the entry. At the very least, it would help get some of the info included in the talk page, included in the entry itself. There are several good points that have been raised, both pro and against the movement, it's just a matter of sorting out the (to use a saying from my home) "bat shit crazy" from the ones that are valid points. One example being the Newsweek articles, and the counter to their statistical analysis. There's a link to that somewhere, but I can't find it right now. Kitsunedawn (talk) 05:43, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- Scrapping the entire article seems a bit extreme (and fairly unnecessary); the basic structure of the current / draft article is good. It goes into too much depth on certain tangential side-controversies and it has a bit too much back-and-forth claim-counterclaim with quotes, but those are things that can easily be fixed by trimming down unnecessary bits. --Aquillion (talk) 17:17, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- Chalk the wording of the talk here up to me working a god awful shift and half asleep. Basically what I'm suggesting is taking the tangential controversies out, paring things down to the base controversy of GamerGate. In a way, starting over, but based on all the information to this point. I've a few drafts of certain sections that I've done recently, and will post them shortly. Kitsunedawn (talk) 21:14, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- Scrapping the entire article seems a bit extreme (and fairly unnecessary); the basic structure of the current / draft article is good. It goes into too much depth on certain tangential side-controversies and it has a bit too much back-and-forth claim-counterclaim with quotes, but those are things that can easily be fixed by trimming down unnecessary bits. --Aquillion (talk) 17:17, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- I'll give it a go on Monday morning sometime after my shift ends, or tomorrow (Sunday, Nov 30). It may not change anything, but with Gamergate largely having run its course, it might not hurt to start over with the entry. At the very least, it would help get some of the info included in the talk page, included in the entry itself. There are several good points that have been raised, both pro and against the movement, it's just a matter of sorting out the (to use a saying from my home) "bat shit crazy" from the ones that are valid points. One example being the Newsweek articles, and the counter to their statistical analysis. There's a link to that somewhere, but I can't find it right now. Kitsunedawn (talk) 05:43, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- If we are going to do a rewrite I'd suggest waiting until there is some writing about in hindsight (and if there isn't then I think we'd need a serious discussion about whether to keep this). HalfHat 09:06, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Protected edit request Nov. 29, 2014
Add new section "Further reading" with link
- Gurney Halleck, A People's History of Gamergate. www.historyofgamergate.com/
Nice documented presentation of the pro-gg perspective. Carrite (talk) 16:56, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Would seem to run afoul of several aspects WP:ELNO that frown upon blogs and self-promotional websites, so I would oppose this. Tarc (talk) 17:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:ELNO, particularly given the unverified/false accusations and insinuations regarding living people contained in the page. We have no reason to link to a page that furthers Gamergate's harassment campaigns against Zoe Quinn. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:23, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- Comment Gurney Halleck is a character in the Dune series of SF books, by Frank Herbert. Does WP allow pseudonymous sourcing?ReynTime (talk) 14:32, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- If it were the case that this semi-anonymous, self-published essay gained significant attention in reliable sources, we would consider it a possibility to include. (Another case, but not here, is if it was an essay published in a reliable source, but the author opted to say anonymous per request, that would be a possibility). But we're not here with that yet. --MASEM (t) 19:07, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- Per WP:BLP, this will never be an external link on Misplaced Pages. External links about living persons, whether in BLPs or elsewhere, are held to a higher standard than for other topics. ... Questionable or self-published sources should not be included in the "Further reading" or "External links" sections of BLPs, and, when including such links in other articles, make sure the material linked to does not violate this policy. The material being linked to is in flagrant violation of BLP. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:41, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- If it were the case that this semi-anonymous, self-published essay gained significant attention in reliable sources, we would consider it a possibility to include. (Another case, but not here, is if it was an essay published in a reliable source, but the author opted to say anonymous per request, that would be a possibility). But we're not here with that yet. --MASEM (t) 19:07, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- I reckon I'm starting to see why the ProGGers have a beef with "ownership" and House POV issues with this article if something as temperate and well documented as that link is tossed aside for apparently ideological reasons or a specious reading of our BLP policies (take your pick). Carrite (talk) 18:06, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not sure what you expected. WP:ELNO is quite clear that links like this should be avoided. It's a personal webpage from a pseudonymous writer with no established authority on the subject. — Strongjam (talk) 19:21, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- What part of "self-published defamatory claims about living people aren't permitted in external links" is unclear? It doesn't matter how "temperate" you believe it's written - this is an anonymous blog which presents defamatory claims about living people, and as such, is clearly prohibited by policy from being used as an external link.
- We don't put anonymous external links in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories that say "Barack Obama is a Marxist Muslim Communist usurper," so I'm not sure why you think we should put anonymous external links in Gamergate controversy that make similarly-defamatory accusations against Zoe Quinn and Nathan Grayson. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:24, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- Just read the article, and yeah, there are definite BLP issues. There are claims and flat out assertions there that if written in Misplaced Pages would be (and have been) rev-deleted. There is no way this is linked to in the article. — Strongjam (talk) 19:37, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Reducing the quotefarmy-ness of the article.
I think one of the main problems with the article, at the moment, is how it basically trails into a massive block of back-and-forth quotes at the end. We need to trim these down somehow. In general, remember that the purpose of the quotes is to illustrate some relevant opinion -- the goal isn't to capture what every single public figure has stated, or to list people you agree with in order to make arguments by proxy; the goal (at least, in an article like this) is to use quotes to capture overarching mainstream coverage and to describe the views of the people directly involved. A good quote should have prose text surrounding it that lets the user knows why they should care about what this person has to say -- eg. "many commentators have said XYZ, such as..." --Aquillion (talk) 17:30, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- Much of the last section of the article was added from the first month or so of the GG situation, and reflect issues with recentism. We're a good 3 months out, sourcing has somewhat died down, so we should be able to trim away most of those quotes without losing the sources. As I've suggested before, the key quotes should be from people that directly have skin in the game, to speak - Quinn, Sarkeesian, Wu, people like Leigh Alexander or Stephan Tolito (due to their websites being affected); people simply commenting on the situation should not be quoted in full as much as we are, but instead pulling brief text from those, at best. --MASEM (t) 07:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Protected edit request, 1 December 2014
 | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Uncontroversial spelling correction - our article currently says "Nathan Greyson" in the lead, but the correct spelling is "Nathan Grayson," as per . NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:33, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:08, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Lede improvement
Moved from the Gamergate ArbCom thing for a chance for a productive discussion. DHeyward believes that the first paragraph of the article unduly concludes "that a fringe position is the dominant cultural view of gaming," and while I don't quite see how he's reading that, I think I feel what he's getting at, and if we can make things clearer, we should. I'll not put words in his mouth and will let DHeyward explain in more detail if he so chooses (and I hope he will). NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The opening sentence is
"The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 and concerns misogyny and harassment in video game culture. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the overwhelming majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture."
The premise outlined in the ArbCom case by NBSB is that gamergater supporters are a small, fringe element (If the article does not make clear that "Gamergate" does not represent all gamers (rather, it is a small fringe within the community), then I agree with you that we should make that distinction clearer.
. I believe that was accurate. The opening line attributes it to "video game culture" in general. It says "the movement is rooted in a culture war against women." I do not know how the view that gamergate is a fringe element is juxtaposed against the wider community without any of the fringe coverage rules. If it's fringe, why aren't we using WP:FRINGE as the guideline and balancing the fringe gamergate harassment? Why don't we say that a "small, fringe minority of gamergate supporters engaged in harassment and misogyny." My counter example was 9/11 hijackers and Islam. Coverage at the time was not lacking in the religious identification of the terrorists. However, I hope we would recognize that they were fringe and treat their form of religious observance as generally unrelated to Islam as it is a fringe expression. It would be quite offensive to use a specific terrorist attack as a springboard to a more general discussion about Islam. Either the article is about the fringe harassment campaign, in which case the fringe aspect is missing. Or it's a mainstream article on video game culture, in which case the fringe harassment shouldn't be the prominent lead-in sentence. --DHeyward (talk) 09:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC) --DHeyward (talk) 09:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC)- That's a good point. Perhaps other editors could comment also, as well as a reply from North. starship.paint ~ regal 09:50, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- (ec) Yeah, actually, I see what you're saying here, and I think I get where the confusion is coming from. It's definitely true that the really severe harassment/misogyny comes from a fringe element, but the entire movement is seen as being tainted by an inability or unwillingness to repudiate or move beyond that misogynistic harassment, and that became a springboard for reliable sources to discuss broader issues of sexism in video gaming, which are viewed as longstanding problems in a wide part of the community (so much so that we have an article about it). In fact, why don't we just straight-up go with that?
"The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 and resulted in widespread debate about issues of sexism in video gaming."
NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:53, 2 December 2014 (UTC)- North, could you clarify, you are proposing that change to the first sentence, and no changes to the second sentence? starship.paint ~ regal 10:09, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, that's correct. I think the second sentence adequately sums up what each side claims. Stating the mainstream argument that Gamergate is "a culture war against women" is more or less properly repeating the argument that it's misogynist but in perhaps a less inflammatory way, and we use "misogyny" a bunch in the second paragraph so much so that I think the point is well and truly made at any rate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- North, could you clarify, you are proposing that change to the first sentence, and no changes to the second sentence? starship.paint ~ regal 10:09, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- This goes back to a point I made a few months ago, that at the core, there are actually two controversies that are named Gamergate, but which once is dominate depends on who you ask: there is the controversy as it exists from the GG side, in which they believe there's ethics issues in journalism and want to correct that, but with the fact that harassment has occurred and tainted their message; and there is the much more predominate controversy over the movement itself (not the issues it raises) by the press about the use of harassment and threats to try to affect journalism or even just to silence opponents. The article does not presently do a good job making this distinction. As I've suggested before, we should piece the central topic - which controversy is key - and write the article to clearly make sure it is understand that the presentation of details is towards that controversy.
- It would seem obvious per COMMONNAME that this article should be about the "controversy over the Gamergate movement", in which case saying that controversy is about sexism and misogyny is correct. While it would be more impartial to frame the article as the "controversy from the Gamergate side" or as the "Gamergate movement" (in which we would start with establishing their FRINGE position before moving onto the harassment issues and strong criticism against it), that's going to be a lot more difficult to write towards without it being too much of a soapbox for GG particularly due to the lack of sourcing. --MASEM (t) 15:38, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Except that, as far as I can tell none of the RS that have covered this subject are saying that there are two controversies, and it is the RS on any subject that then informs the page and its contents. Whilst I have no doubt that you sincerely believe that there are two controversies going under the name 'Gamergate', unless this can be backed up using RS then it remains WP:OR and, I'm afraid to say, unable to used in Misplaced Pages.
- Yes, many the RS used in the article do state that the stated objectives and claims of Gamergate supporters are x; however, given that x has already been included in the article (and there isn't enough evidence from RS to spin off x into a new page), I do not see how trying to create two separate pages on the Gamergate controversy can achieve anything, except maybe accidentally remove or silence the requisite balance already included in the page.--SakuraNoSeirei (talk) 17:59, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- This is more the analysis and a mindset from our side as WP editors as to how we write the article in a manner that makes it clear what the topic is. Right now, much of the problem is that proGG side come in expecting to read about their controversy, and see instead the article based on the opinion, because the lead does not make that clear. If said, first sentence "GG is a controversy surrounding actions of the Gamergate movement that involved issues of sexism and misogyny" (not that exact wording but just highlighting the distinctions), then the angle that we're talking to write about the article would be crystal clear, and would help structure the article better (identifying what we can of GG movement's fringe view as to then proceeed into the massive amount of criticism and condemnation it has garnered). And no, absolutely not suggesting two pages; the two controversies are forever attached to each other so separation makes no sense in addition to sourcing issues. --MASEM (t) 18:08, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The purpose of our article is not to make everyone who visits it happy; I daresay there are plenty of articles here that make visitors unhappy. But I think that if we go by the reliable sources it's clear that Gamergate's notability comes primarily from harassment, which means it should be the main focus of our article -- outside of the harassment, it's just a few thousand people shouting at each other on Twitter and 8chan, so it's hardly surprising that that has no coverage. I think that there's also disagreements over what constitutes "harassment" -- my impression is that most of the reliable sources discussing harassment in the article include things like spreading debunked rumors about people in order to destroy their reputation, or having huge mobs of people constantly focus waves of tweets on people who have earned GG's ire for one reason or another. If you include that, I think it's reasonable to say that the majority of GG is about harassment, at least in the sense that that's most of what the hashtag is used for... and this is why there's so many reliable sources characterizing it that way. People within Gamergate (the people who, as you're saying, come to this article and are unhappy because they feel it portrays them in a negative light) would probably argue that those things aren't harassment -- that the accusations are true, that they're just talking to those people, that having a bunch of people insulting you on Twitter when you offend them is just a normal part of being on the internet, etc -- but we have to go by what the reliable sources say, and they characterize the majority of what's done under the #Gamergate tag as harassment, not just a small minority.
- This is more the analysis and a mindset from our side as WP editors as to how we write the article in a manner that makes it clear what the topic is. Right now, much of the problem is that proGG side come in expecting to read about their controversy, and see instead the article based on the opinion, because the lead does not make that clear. If said, first sentence "GG is a controversy surrounding actions of the Gamergate movement that involved issues of sexism and misogyny" (not that exact wording but just highlighting the distinctions), then the angle that we're talking to write about the article would be crystal clear, and would help structure the article better (identifying what we can of GG movement's fringe view as to then proceeed into the massive amount of criticism and condemnation it has garnered). And no, absolutely not suggesting two pages; the two controversies are forever attached to each other so separation makes no sense in addition to sourcing issues. --MASEM (t) 18:08, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- More importantly, maybe, my impression (and what I think most of the more reliable sources say) is that the second goal -- the ethics goal -- is primarily about a culture war against so-called SJWs and feminism in particular (what was once called "political correctness", too, although that terms seems to have mostly fallen out of use). If you read the RSes in the article that have taken the time to read and analyze the various Gamergate manifestos and focus on the reddit and forums where they congregate, it's reasonably clear that that what Gamergate means when they say "corruption" in gaming is, usually, "feminists and SJWs advancing their wicked agenda", with the movement as a whole being marked by a total fixation on anything it can use as a line of attack against those ideological enemies, and near-total disinterest in anything that doesn't involve attacking them. Again, it's more an argument over definitions than a focus on different parts of the movement -- people within Gamergate feel that its primary targets have committed major ethical breaches, while most of the sources from outside it feel that they haven't and that Gamergate is targeting them for ideological reasons. (And, of course, this ties back into the first point, in that when commentators dismiss the ethical breaches Gamergate is fixated on as clearly trivial-to-nonexistent, that means that constantly trying to use them to attack the reputation of individuals becomes, at least in the eyes of the media, a form of harassment.)
- Obviously any movement covers a diverse range of people with many different goals, but I think that if we go by the more reliable sources GG's two threads are harassment and *culture war*, not harassment and ethics. And these two goals are much more tightly connected than you're suggesting, since again, it's the harassment that has given them notability and has elevated their culture war to public attention. Most of the unhappy Gamergate people you allude to would probably define their role as "defending" in this culture war rather than attacking, but I suspect that even the majority of people affiliated with it wouldn't disagree with an assessment saying that they're focused on confronting feminists and SJWs who keep unethically by bringing their ideology into games and game reviews -- most of the Gamergate sources we have in the article seem to be saying that, and it's the assessment of every journalist who has gone into the main GG subreddits and forums. I even think that most people in GG would agree that Gamergate itself is generally focused on doing many of the things that our reliable sources are lumping under harassment, as long as it's not described as harassment -- confronting their enemies on Twitter, attacking the reputations of a few specific journalists and developers, etc. So the debate is not really over "which part" of Gamergate to focus on, as it is over how to characterize its actions and views. Now obviously movements are broad and have lot of people, and I'm sure that there are people who think of themselves as a part of Gamergate and who aren't obsessed with SJWs and feminists and who don't participate in even the broadly-defined sort of "harassment" I outlined above... but we need to cover what the reliable sources say, and they're nearly unanimous that Gamergate is a movement based around using harassment by that definition and that it is not concerned with ethics beyond the extremely narrow so-called "anti-politics-in-gaming" scope necessary to fight back against what they see as their political enemies. I think part of the issue is a culture-clash between 4chan / 8chan culture and the rest of the world, where what 4chan sees as harassment is very very different from what the NYT sees as harassment. But I'm not sure how many sources have focused on that particular angle. --Aquillion (talk) 18:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "And no, absolutely not suggesting two pages; the two controversies are forever attached to each other so separation makes no sense in addition to sourcing issues."
Sorry about that, for some reason my brain read your post as suggesting two separate pages. I blame a combination of flu and chemo for my reading failure.--SakuraNoSeirei (talk) 18:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC) - Beautifully put, Aquillion. Hustlecat 18:51, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I endorse everything Aquillion said above, and there's no need for me to try and repeat this excellent summation of the issue. There is a reason that reliable sources have dismissed the "ethics in gaming journalism" line, and it is not that every reliable source is part of a vast, insidious conspiracy against Gamergate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The thing here is that do we absolutely need to say "harassment and misogyny" in the first sentence when it can be stated in the second (or a third) sentence of the lead without losing any other context/weight/etc? Because it is a debatable issue between the key party (the proGG side) and the way the press reports, stating that issue in the very first sentences sets a tone that is unencyclopedic. Waiting for one more sentence, or even adding a third to read better, doesn't change the weight, doesn't change the predominate viewpoint, but simply makes the article less aggressive from the start and puts use in a neutral stance on the matter.
- Eg The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 in video game culture. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the overwhelming majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture. The movement has been broadly condemned by mass media as sexist and misogynistic due to continued harassment and threats made under the Gamergate hashtag, targeting primarily female individuals in the video game industry. Everything is still there, it sets the stage for the rest of the article, but it avoids us (WP) from stating in WP's voice what the controversy is about, but atttributing it to the proper groups in the second and third sentences. --MASEM (t) 19:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- We do need to reference sexism in the first sentence, because that is what the public controversy is about. That is essentially the only thing that non-GG reliable sources have examined. So I would modify your proposal thusly: The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 in video game culture, centering on issues of sexism in video games. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture. The movement's targeting of primarily female individuals in the video game industry for harassment and threats has been broadly condemned as sexist and misogynistic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:24, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I'd drop the "overwhelming majority of" bit. We don't need that many descriptors, and inevitably someone will drive-by tag it as {{citationneeded}}. — Strongjam (talk) 19:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think "the majority" can easily be defended, but "overwhelming" is unnecessary. Tweaked. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:31, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Instead of "sexism in video games" how about "gender issues in video games" (same link otherwise). Consider the proGG disagre about what they see as a strong push of feminist ideals into the vg culture. That's not so much sexism but it is a gender issue. Note that I am agreeing that something that is common to the whole issue that both sides have touched on is reasonable to include in the first sentence, and it's not that "sexism" is not appropriate but I think there's a more precise phrase we can use. --MASEM (t) 19:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The whole introductory section of our article discusses the background of the controversy, which is that the gaming community has long been viewed as having issues with sexist behaviors, tropes, etc. If we go all the way back to one of the very first reliable sources to examine Gamergate, The Washington Post reported that
Sexism in gaming is a long-documented, much-debated but seemingly intractable problem. It’s also the crux of the industry’s biggest ongoing battle being waged on Twitter under the hashtag “#GamerGate.”
I think "sexism in video games" is a fair and well-sourced descriptor for the lede. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)- That's reasonable then. As noted, it's not that "sexism in video games" (or perhaps "sexism in the video game industry") is wrong, but it is probably the best word that covers all fundamental issues. --MASEM (t) 19:59, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Gamergate has never been about sexism in gaming. That discussion has been going on for years. Gamergate is different because it started from slut-shaming and harassment of real life people about real-life events. Once you go beyond that, into sexism (or violence) in video games, it's no longer GG but a rabbit hole of history and a much larger social issue than gaming culture. The big names that have made GG mainstream issues are not gamers and their position cannot be attributed to gaming culture. Sommers and Baldwin, for instance are not representative of gaming culture. --DHeyward (talk) 19:41, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The reliable sources disagree with your opening sentence. Misogyny, death threats and a mob of trolls: Inside the dark world of video games (The Telegraph), Gamergate might be gaming sexism's Waterloo (The Week), Feminist Critics of Video Games Facing Threats in ‘GamerGate’ Campaign (The New York Times), The Gaming Industry's Greatest Adversary Is Just Getting Started (BusinessWeek), Online culture war prompts mass shooting threat (CBS News), What Is #GamerGate and Why Are Women Being Threatened About Video Games? (Time), etc. etc. etc. The conclusion of reliable sources is that Gamergate has torn off the scab covering up a sexist undercurrent in video game culture. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Exactly the opposite. They acknowledge sexism has been an ongoing discussion for years and that this incident is defined by specific harassment from a small number of trolls. Sexism in gaming is background material for that, not lead material. --DHeyward (talk) 19:55, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's precisely the point. Here, have another: GamerGate: facing misogyny in the video game world (Australian Broadcasting Corporation News):
If you live with somebody who likes to play video games - and millions of adults do - you won't have escaped hearing about Gamergate. It's rocked the hundred billion-dollar video gaming industry with allegations of sexism and misogyny. It started with an allegation against a female gamer of sexual favours for good reviews and quickly turned into an all-out culture war.
The public debate about Gamergate is about sexism and misogyny in the video gaming industry/community, full stop. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's precisely the point. Here, have another: GamerGate: facing misogyny in the video game world (Australian Broadcasting Corporation News):
- Exactly the opposite. They acknowledge sexism has been an ongoing discussion for years and that this incident is defined by specific harassment from a small number of trolls. Sexism in gaming is background material for that, not lead material. --DHeyward (talk) 19:55, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The reliable sources disagree with your opening sentence. Misogyny, death threats and a mob of trolls: Inside the dark world of video games (The Telegraph), Gamergate might be gaming sexism's Waterloo (The Week), Feminist Critics of Video Games Facing Threats in ‘GamerGate’ Campaign (The New York Times), The Gaming Industry's Greatest Adversary Is Just Getting Started (BusinessWeek), Online culture war prompts mass shooting threat (CBS News), What Is #GamerGate and Why Are Women Being Threatened About Video Games? (Time), etc. etc. etc. The conclusion of reliable sources is that Gamergate has torn off the scab covering up a sexist undercurrent in video game culture. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- The whole introductory section of our article discusses the background of the controversy, which is that the gaming community has long been viewed as having issues with sexist behaviors, tropes, etc. If we go all the way back to one of the very first reliable sources to examine Gamergate, The Washington Post reported that
- I'd drop the "overwhelming majority of" bit. We don't need that many descriptors, and inevitably someone will drive-by tag it as {{citationneeded}}. — Strongjam (talk) 19:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- We do need to reference sexism in the first sentence, because that is what the public controversy is about. That is essentially the only thing that non-GG reliable sources have examined. So I would modify your proposal thusly: The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 in video game culture, centering on issues of sexism in video games. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture. The movement's targeting of primarily female individuals in the video game industry for harassment and threats has been broadly condemned as sexist and misogynistic. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:24, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- I think you've missed the bigger point by focusing about "ethics in journalism." That is not what we contrast in the opening sentence. We juxtapose harassment and misogyny by one fringe element of gamergate supporters against gaming culture as a whole. Is harassment and misogyny a fringe position or is it the mainstream position of gaming culture? If it's fringe, then we need to say it's fringe. The ethics argument might represent a large portion of gamergate supporters and can be juxtaposed against the smaller fringe element of harassers. But the real problem is the juxtaposition of harassers within the gaming community overall which is how we are framing the article. I think it shows that
"The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 and concerns misogyny and harassment in video game culture."
is simply wrong as "misogyny and harassment" is a fringe viewpoint in video game culture (so is "ethics in journalism"). That doesn't dismiss the harassment and misogyny occured just as an "ISIS suicide bomber" is a fringe expression if Islam. We wouldn't ever leap to news sources that link the religion of a billion people to a suicide bomber even though "Islamic State" is in every single reliable source. It's fringe and fringe says to be very careful in using news sources for recentism events. The false balance that gets repeated is the harassment and misogyny are more prominent that ethics in journalism so it's okay to label the entire culture. As it's fringe, the opening sentence could easily read"The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014 and has been largely defined by a small, fringe group that harassed specific game developers and journalists."
--DHeyward (talk) 19:29, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "And no, absolutely not suggesting two pages; the two controversies are forever attached to each other so separation makes no sense in addition to sourcing issues."
- Obviously any movement covers a diverse range of people with many different goals, but I think that if we go by the more reliable sources GG's two threads are harassment and *culture war*, not harassment and ethics. And these two goals are much more tightly connected than you're suggesting, since again, it's the harassment that has given them notability and has elevated their culture war to public attention. Most of the unhappy Gamergate people you allude to would probably define their role as "defending" in this culture war rather than attacking, but I suspect that even the majority of people affiliated with it wouldn't disagree with an assessment saying that they're focused on confronting feminists and SJWs who keep unethically by bringing their ideology into games and game reviews -- most of the Gamergate sources we have in the article seem to be saying that, and it's the assessment of every journalist who has gone into the main GG subreddits and forums. I even think that most people in GG would agree that Gamergate itself is generally focused on doing many of the things that our reliable sources are lumping under harassment, as long as it's not described as harassment -- confronting their enemies on Twitter, attacking the reputations of a few specific journalists and developers, etc. So the debate is not really over "which part" of Gamergate to focus on, as it is over how to characterize its actions and views. Now obviously movements are broad and have lot of people, and I'm sure that there are people who think of themselves as a part of Gamergate and who aren't obsessed with SJWs and feminists and who don't participate in even the broadly-defined sort of "harassment" I outlined above... but we need to cover what the reliable sources say, and they're nearly unanimous that Gamergate is a movement based around using harassment by that definition and that it is not concerned with ethics beyond the extremely narrow so-called "anti-politics-in-gaming" scope necessary to fight back against what they see as their political enemies. I think part of the issue is a culture-clash between 4chan / 8chan culture and the rest of the world, where what 4chan sees as harassment is very very different from what the NYT sees as harassment. But I'm not sure how many sources have focused on that particular angle. --Aquillion (talk) 18:28, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Misogyny and harassment" is not a fringe position; it is the core of Gamergate, a fact which is supported by reliable sources. The lead cannot move away from that, if it is to be an introduction to the reader as to what the subject matter is. Tarc (talk) 19:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Whose core position is "misogyny and harassment?" I missed that part. Is it just the fringe group of of harassers? Everything above says it's a fringe group that holds those views. If so, then GG is about a fringe group, not video game culture. If not, then it shouldn't be the lead sentence that links gaming culture to misogyny and harassment. --DHeyward (talk) 19:44, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- It may not be the core position of any particular person you ask, but it is certainly the core of the events that have transpired (per RSes) and the core of what has made Gamergate notable in the first place (again per RSes). Hustlecat 19:58, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- Whose core position is "misogyny and harassment?" I missed that part. Is it just the fringe group of of harassers? Everything above says it's a fringe group that holds those views. If so, then GG is about a fringe group, not video game culture. If not, then it shouldn't be the lead sentence that links gaming culture to misogyny and harassment. --DHeyward (talk) 19:44, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Misogyny and harassment" is not a fringe position; it is the core of Gamergate, a fact which is supported by reliable sources. The lead cannot move away from that, if it is to be an introduction to the reader as to what the subject matter is. Tarc (talk) 19:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
Formal proposal for consensus-gathering
OK, here's what I formally propose:
The Gamergate controversy began in August 2014, centering on a debate about sexism in video game culture. While many supporters of the self-described Gamergate movement say that they are concerned about ethical issues in video game journalism, the majority of commentators have said that the movement is rooted in a culture war against women and the diversification of gaming culture. The movement's targeting of primarily female individuals in the video game industry for harassment and threats has been broadly condemned as sexist and misogynistic.
This addresses DHeyward's concern — one which I believe is fair — that the current version does not properly attribute the "misogyny" and "harassment" aspects directly to the movement, and instead appears to apply it to video gaming culture as a whole. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:05, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
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