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“	I order you to be truthful, for indeed truthfulness leads to righteousness, and indeed righteousness leads to Paradise. A man continues to be truthful and strives for truthfulness until he is written as a truthful person with God. And beware of falsehood, for indeed falsehood leads to sinning, and indeed sinning leads to the Fire. A man continues to tell lies and strives upon falsehood until he is written as a liar with God	”
— Saheeh Muslim

“	In matters of truth and justice, there is no difference between large and small problems, for issues concerning the treatment of people are all the same	”
— Albert Einstein

WP:TALK#USE: "Explaining why you have a certain opinion helps to demonstrate its validity.."

SPI FYI

. and . Aslo, see Islamic extremism. He may have had a point. ~ P-123 (talk) 14:27, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 Thank you I have never had objection to what @Mohammed al-Bukhari: said but with the deceitful way in which the information was presented and his refusal to communicate. My view is that while someone is responding to reason then dialogue may work. Sadly this turned out not to be the case. Comment added here. gregkaye ✍♪ 15:05, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 *sigh*. Having said that, this page on "Doctrines of the Khawarij and articles" is narrated by "Al-Bukhari". A relative? GregKaye ✍♪ 16:20, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Probably a common Muslim name. ~ P-123 (talk) 19:15, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks

I am touched by your generosity, Greg, in view of the latest trouble. I accept that AGF gesture as I don't think sarcasm is in your nature. I wish I could redact much of what I said yesterday. You were very patient. ~ P-123 (talk) 19:24, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

• P-123 You honestly don't realise how much that means to me, eyes half full with tears. Please believe me that I try my best to a significant extent to resolve issues with editors on talk pages before adding content to article pages. I also hope for your forgiveness for my occasional over reactions to issues in the past. Sometimes I can grab the wrong stick. I don't pretend to be undamaged in life and, while not claiming to be socially functional in all ways, shouldn't make excuses either. Signedzzz interpreted my actions a being patronising and often fail to make a good impression. I often look at my edits and know that there is something wrong but don't know how to get things right. Editing on my page will likely remain hazardous, I cannot lie, but, believe me, you mean a lot to me. I have also taken the liberty of amending your message above - in hope. GregKaye ✍♪ 19:44, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Of course. I think we are both the same, can over-react and get hold of the wrong end of the stick sometimes, and I do admit to having a short fuse. You never struck me as patronising on the TP and your editing always looks fine to me, apart from the occasional clumsy wording in the text, but I can be guilty of that as well sometimes. You and a couple of other editors have the best manners on the TP, IMO. Felt quite forlorn yesterday after "cutting you off". New start? ~ P-123 (talk) 20:12, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 Ring out the old, ring in the new, Ring, happy bells, across the snow, or something like that. I am always happy to turn over a new leaf but I remain the same person. Please don't have any hopes of change. GregKaye ✍♪ 20:22, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive editor

This editor has been behaving badly recently, as you noted in the edit summary. He has been here before! How can he be stopped this time? ~ P-123 (talk) 22:39, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

• User:Atifabbasi8 Your disruption is noted by a number of editors and action may be taken at any time. Whatever ideology you hold I hope that it includes something regarding respect for establishment. Please respond. 02:31, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
  • P-123 which Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard do you think is most relevant? I was thinking vandalism. User:Atifabbasi8 how would you define your edits? GregKaye ✍♪ 03:02, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Is there a vandalism noticeboard? What about the edit-warrimg noticeboard? It is always the same few edits, isn't it? ~ P-123 (talk) 09:26, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
      • The notice boards are listed in my link above. those edits and a lot more stuff highlighted on the user TP. GregKaye ✍♪ 09:30, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
        • Sorry, didn't see the highlighting. If it shows as dark blue as it sometimes does on my screen, it is almost indistinguishable from ordinary text so I miss seeing the links. He has broken the 1RR once, so it is mostly editing against consensus. I see you have already mentioned him at AN/I where Legacypac talks about his creation of articles. I think edit-warring is the best grounds. ~ P-123 (talk) 11:29, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Gas giants

Does this clarify things (I'm assuming from the lack of response on your part that you haven't read it)? And maybe you'd like to strike through your vote at Talk:Gas giant#Requested_move_III to be sure? --JorisvS (talk) 14:23, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

JorisvS I have very happily struck my oppose. I just wanted to ask you about the option mentioned. Neptune is 80 ± 3.2% hydrogen (H2) and 19 ± 3.2% helium (He). They are gas giants and giant planets. If it were my effort going into it, which it isn't, I would use the base name Gas giant. The other thing I would do it try to merge Ice giant to the Giant planet article but this is your baby. Enjoy. GregKaye ✍♪ 14:47, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

The composition in the infobox is of its atmosphere. Uranus and Neptune have significant hydrogen–helium atmospheres, but their bulk composition is ices. That's where the difference with the gas giants lies: the gas giants' a bulk is composed of hydrogen and helium. --JorisvS (talk) 14:59, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

JorisvS Thank you you make me think. The atmosphere is ~99% hydrogen and helium. I don't know of estimates to say how big the core is but the atmosphere would be super dense further in as very soupy gas. I also admit to the fact that I may not have a right view on this. See: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/233047/giant-planet They don't have either of the other two articles. I really appreciate your passion. Many other info providers talk of ice giants and I don't think there is a right choice whether to develop all the articles or not. I only think that, if an Ice giant article remains then there would be a need for a gas giant article as well. GregKaye ✍♪ 15:22, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Always a pleasure. Misplaced Pages tends to incorporate new information and new insights more quickly than a traditional encyclopedia like Britannica, because of its very design. The Neptune article says that Neptune's (hydrogen–helium) atmosphere is estimated to be 5–10% of its mass (some 0.8–1.7 M_E) , whereas its icy mantle is estimated to be 10–15 M_E, and its metal–silicate core at 1.2 M_E. This shows what it means to be an ice giant. --JorisvS (talk) 16:22, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

JorisvS quite so but its an Ice giant composed of I guess 70-80+% gas. I suspect that giant planets throughout the universe are generally more gassy than icy. This will especially be the case of near orbits of exo planets within which water would boil. GregKaye ✍♪ 16:56, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

The phase of most the matter by far is a supercritical fluid at the high temperatures and pressures involved. "Ice" in astronomy means the volatiles such as water, methane, ammonia, etc., regardless of the phase it is in. "Gas" means only hydrogen and helium, again regardless of the phase it is in. --JorisvS (talk) 17:07, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

JorisvS Doh, again thanks GregKaye ✍♪ 17:14, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Small point

I saw Mhhossein's remarks in the "Lead" thread on the main Talk page and then yours on their Talk page just now. When you say there "I was presented by the same editor... ", you mean Felino, don't you? If so, can you word it so that it does not look like me, please? I think you must be referring to the edit-warring by Felino there, but I can't remember the details that far back! It really is a small point and don't want to make an issue of it. :) ~ P-123 (talk) 17:28, 11 December 2014 (UTC) .

P-123 Doh. GregKaye ✍♪ 17:30, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

~ P-123 (talk) 17:32, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Invitation Regarding Reliable Sources

Given your recent activity on the talk page of Identifying reliable sources, I am inviting you to participate in the discussion I started in regard to establishing a prima facia case for verifiable sources if it is has met and maintained the standards for inclusion in Google News.–GodBlessYou2 (talk) 20:38, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

May know more about you?

Hey, I'd like to know more about you (of course if it's possible). You are a good colleague and editor. Mhhossein (talk) 05:36, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Mhhossein I am a by very nature a questioner with a joke long running between myself and P-123 that I would argue against "the cat sat on the mat". These days I am agnostic. i find it hard to discount the vastly improbable marvels of natural science without some kind of guiding intelligence. I have a hunch that paradox may have been somehow in the generation of existence and that an intelligence within existence may somehow have been able to generate a beginning of existence. That's paradox. Maybe that is God. Maybe its us within some super developed format. Maybe its the beings that we (or another form of life) genetically or technologically create in the future. (maybe this gives an idea of the things I think about. However I find it hard to believe in a God/god that is both loving and powerful and who has a special place for humanity in her or his heart.

I used to be a part of a highly committed christian group, wanted to find answers, studied Hebrew, went to synagogue, wrote on Genesis, went to Israel (five years total) and India, with Israelis, (one year). My interpretation of Genesis insisted on the idea that God had interventionist power following creation and, I looked around, and (while acknowledging that injustice is just a factor in a wonderful world of sunsets and the like) decided that traditional views on God were not the answer I was looking for.

This has all been a big part of what I am. I have great interest and respect for doctrines and feel very strongly regarding their misrepresentation. On the talk page I tend to talk about 'SIL, Daesh or similar and, in one small side of things, feel that their lack of representation of Islam should be highlighted.

I am an electrician but spend much my time on Misplaced Pages . GregKaye ✍♪ 06:05, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

To be frank, as a non-native speaker of English, I should read it 2 times or more to get exactly what you mean! However I know you better now. Thanks for your response. Btw, I'm a metallurgist! Mhhossein (talk) 06:16, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Mhhossein I have a friend that does electro plating. Your English seems excellent. A problem may also be that I don't always write so well. More info on me is on my User page. The initial content is just playful stuff. I've also just looked at your User page too and had previously just read a discussion on your TP. Do you do much in the Fa Misplaced Pages? GregKaye ✍♪ 06:34, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I did my final thesis for taking MSc degree in the electroplating field. In fact, I manufactured a nano-composite coating. That's interesting to hear my English is good! I don't contribute in Fa regularly and like it here much more! Mhhossein (talk) 19:26, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

December 2014

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware that Misplaced Pages's policy on edit warring states:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Lor 22:22, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Edits on my Talk page

You are tempting me to ask for a WP:IBAN. ~ P-123 (talk) 22:37, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

• P-123 On what point do you disagree? GregKaye ✍♪ 22:47, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Forgive me while I make a totally unsolicited interjection. You're both clearly smart people and you've both, in concert, made tremendously productive changes to the Islamic State (excuse me, Islamic State of Iraq and Syria) article. As a matter of fact, your symbiotic collaboration was rather frustrating to my own desires on that page. A cursory review of your interactions didn't reveal anything to me that would suggest the need for an IBAN. In fact, you two seem to have mutually supported a lot of quality work despite some inevitable stress associated with the type of work you two do. The things you have done together far outweight your disagreemetns and so I'd urge you to just let it go. Maybe take a break. Just don't let the stress of all of it get the better of you both. Cheers guys. GraniteSand (talk) 08:25, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

• GraniteSand Thank you for your thoughtful response. I will add that the two of us have engaged in a lot of dialogue and that everything needs to be considered in context. Thank you also to the reference to a great deal of collaborative work but any editor can apply for what they like. I have presented content on a User talk page in regard to Article talk page activity and this was done for the editors personal consideration. My hope is that this matter is now closed. My preference is for User page dialogue in cases where this may be proven to work. In the mean time I am considering archiving this thread. (add: In the mean time I am considering archiving this thread on the basis that this may be the diplomatic thing to do). GregKaye ✍♪ 08:43, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
• Please do not refactor my Talk page, it is gross interference. I needed two versions of that message, one annotated and one not. I may bring this up. ~ P-123 (talk) 08:56, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 It would have been a kindness if you had noted that my refactoring of your talk page did not extended beyond your refactoring of my edit. Again I ask, if you are to present accusation (in this case through an implication of wrongdoing), please present diffs. As you know, the context was of edits, here, here, here, here and here. My refactoring was enacted here after which you deleted the thread here. GregKaye ✍♪ 09:11, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

• Unread. ~ P-123 (talk) 09:13, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

P-123 You did not provide, "two versions of that message, one annotated and one not." You did not go beyond a refactoring of my edit. In such a situation I would have no objection to you adding any relevant comments in sequence or at any appropriate point but please leave other editors contents in the form that the editor has presented. If you want to raise issue, then do so. GregKaye ✍♪ 09:29, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

• Unread. ~ P-123 (talk) 09:35, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Concerns

As you know I have been very concerned about your conduct on the Talk page with regard to some of the editing in the article for a very long time. The conflict between this and our otherwise good working relationship until recently has always put an enormous strain on me which you may not be aware of. I am afraid your latest aggression was the last straw and from now on I will be putting the article first. This is to inform you that I have added my concern to Anastaisis' here. I am sorry it has come to this. ~ P-123 (talk) 13:53, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

My concerns relate to what I interpret to be dramatic changes of approach that I consider you to have taken at various times. Just a short time ago you made this edit stating:

"==Thanks==

I am touched by your generosity, Greg, in view of the latest trouble. I accept that AGF gesture as I don't think sarcasm is in your nature. I wish I could redact much of what I said yesterday. You were very patient. ~ P-123 (talk) 19:24, 10 December 2014 (UTC)"

Towards the end of a greatly protracted Misplaced Pages saga recently archived (with your thanks received for the archival) I ended by saying, "It would be appreciated if you tried to understand why I find your recent actions on the talk:ISIL so baffling". You responded, shortly after the edit above, with the gratefully received reply, "I think I do now".

When I am in the wrong, as you know, I admit it. Since your placement of the thread above you withdrew this content.

Please be aware that you may not be the only editor to reach a "last straw" type situation.

In regard to the above thread you deleted the "Sovereign state" thread from your talk page which had its last appearance here, yet, I think it was to your credit that you refactored your related Article talk page contributions here. Sincerely, thank-you for those changes made.

I have made attempts to tackle issues privately where possible. The issues raised with regard to your recent edits were: WP:OR, WP:RS, WP:NPOV and WP:INDCRIT. I asked a question above, "On what point do you disagree?" Beyond your redaction of talk page content no answer was given. GregKaye ✍♪ 15:13, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The content placed here has been transferred to Legacypac's talk page as irrelevant to this discussion. P-123 you have posted here about your uncited concerns about my "conduct on the Talk page with regard to some of the editing in the article for a very long time." One thing at a time. If you want to discuss issues that concern me I will be happy to hear. You were recently threatening an interaction ban. GregKaye ✍♪ 22:40, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Breathtaking disingenuity! You have known for a very long time exactly why I have found your conduct with regard to some editing questionable. I have never made any secret of it, either to you here or on the Talk page, and you know it. I have no more time or patience for your interminable analyses of every word I say, it is beyond a joke now! I hope the eavesdroppers are enjoying this, I certainly am. Twisting the tail can be fun! P-123 (talk) 23:14, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Worldedixor repeatedly described you as "vindictive". I defended you. You also have failed to justify your accusations yet you continue to WP:hound. I am the same person to whom you recently gave a barnstar of integrity. It's really up to you how deep a hole you dig for yourself. GregKaye ✍♪ 23:25, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Just hurry up and hug and make up Lor 23:31, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Lor its out of my hands but thanks. GregKaye ✍♪ 23:37, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I want to make something clear

Anyone has the right to walk away from a discussion, and move on. Your discussion with P-123 was civil yes, but when they wanted to walk away, you clearly did not let them. If they want to discuss it, discuss it! But if they just want to stop discussing it, and move on to other topics, then let them! Happy editing, just keep this point in mind. Lor 02:05, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

As this clearly shows, they had been requesting for the discussion to stop. Look, when the discussion stops, the discussion stops. Unless it's an urgent matter which needs to be dealt with quickly, i see no reason why they did not have the right to stop that discussion, walk away, and move on. Lor 02:14, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

User:Lor I have been accused of concerning "conduct on the Talk page with regard to some of the editing in the article for a very long time", "Breathtaking disingenuity", "conduct with regard to some editing questionable" and "analyses of every word I say". Then when the comment "I hope the eavesdroppers are enjoying this, I certainly am. Twisting the tail can be fun!" the excuse is "I was provoked". None of this at any point is given any substantiation. How is it right that an editor can come to a talk page without substantiation present insults and then demand silence as a condition that they walk away? GregKaye ✍♪ 02:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

It's a matter of only being human. In my honest opinion, it wasn't their fault. Everyone has breaking points where they can't keep their 'cool' of sorts. They have now refactored it, taken it back, and said sorry basically. Lor 02:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Lor, I personally think its a matter of not making accusation without substantiation. This has been a very long running issue and honestly I have tried my best. I invite you to read as much of the ISIL and other talk pages as you want. The core justification I am convinced is unfounded. Nothing is pointed to. It just goes on and on and I feel helpless. I ask for qualification and nothing ever comes. GregKaye ✍♪ 02:38, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, you don't have to work in the article in question by any means. But due to the very debatable nature of it I would not necessarily suggest it Lor 02:47, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

A bowl of strawberries for you!

.. P-123 (talk) 03:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)