Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:39, 19 July 2006

Editing the complaint after posting?

Is it standard for the criteria that the deletion request is based on to be edited again and again AFTER voting begins? That seems a bit crazy. rootology 22:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

No reason not too so long as the time on the signature corresponds to the updates. (→Netscott) 22:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

What is official policy on this? It seems disengenuous as people will already have voted one way or the other. For example, if a vote is going against what is desired by the vote-maker, he can "game the system" by making it sound more heinous after the fact to try to sway things. Not saying you did this out of maliciousness, but I am concerned. rootology 22:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

By all means make a post on WP:AN about this. If ever I had doubts about modifying the reasoning aftewards I wouldn't have done so. (→Netscott) 22:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Ed is "mean, attack, etc."

Just because ED is mean and obnoxious does not make an article ABOUT it the same. The WP article about it does not show favor or endorsement to the information and humor style on ED; t only describes it. In essence, we have a NPOV-secure article about a controversial subject. We should be applauding, not deleting. These aren't good reasons to exclude an article's subject. Karwynn (talk) 22:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

See Ku Klux Klan, Adolf Hitler, Osama bin Laden, concentration camp, rape, murder, terrorism, torture. Karwynn (talk) 22:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Consensus

If everyone agrees to a "delete" consensus based on votes I will agree. However, I want to be sure that if the vote is keep or no consensus, that no admin will take it upon themselves to delete. Note extreme hostility, possible retaliatory nature of this deletion request:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#How_to_report_abusive_admin_editing.3F_.2F_updated_with_details

Thanks! rootology 01:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

What is the policy if any for renomination of an article after it has successfully passed a deletion vote? Is there any amount of time that it must be excluded for renominations? Or can people repeatedly relist immediately? Thanks, curious. rootology 01:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

There's no hard and fast policy, although it's discouraged. If it survived this round, a new nom would almost certainly be speedy kept. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The closing admin doesnt actually decide based purely on the vote number, but on the arguement's presented. Usually they will obey consensus, but they don't have to technically. Cheers -- Banes 01:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I am concerned that given the hostile nature of an attack on one admin that spawned this, that there is no way to get a "fair shake" now. What recourse exists (if hypothetically it came to that)? Just submit for undeletion? Never been through all this before so I'm not sure. rootology 01:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

deletion review is available, but your mileage may vary. --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I was just going to say that. If an article is deleted it is never "gone". They can always be brought back, and, while I'd like to see this one go, it is likely to stay. You are free to report and admin you believe has abused their powers, there are plenty of places to do this, and, if this article is deleted unfairly, it will be restored. -- Banes 01:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I saw some people reporting the admin and I saw them being reverted. Hardvice 13:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Where, for what article? What admin? rootology 13:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I spotted one in the history of this AFD article. I looked up the user and I see banned. I looked up the banner's contributions and I saw a record started of users they banned for such complaining and there were more than one, complaints all over the place. Hardvice 13:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Wonder why.--MONGO 13:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Folks if a Misplaced Pages admin is being attacked and trolled as it appears was happening when this version of Encyclopædia Dramatica was online (note the now deleted image of the front page of the site featuring User:MONGO) it's normal that those who are doing the attacking and trolling (particularly accounts that were socks meant to do so) are blocked and banned. All of that falls into Misplaced Pages's policies. (→Netscott) 13:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, no problem with that. I'm curious if any policy exists however on admins editing complaints about themselves? Just curious, I'm still learning some of this as I go. Seems kind of conflict of interest? rootology 13:43, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

While the image should have been reverted, there was nothing technically wrong with the deletion. Scores of other abuses of power are evident, but not concerning the image. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The revisionism is amazing here. The image was the only issue, and the page was not attacking anyone. Since the image was deleted rather than reverted to a non-attack image, we have no way of showing who was actually doing the attacking. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Attributing 'revisionism' to other editors in a justifiable disagreement is extremely unproductive and unlikely to resolve the conflict with mutual respect - as it implies a motive to disinform.

And in this instance (where you are claiming that since the image's content isn't available now there's no way to know who was attacking whom) your use of that term is a really stunning achievement in unintentional irony. Such an idea is the very 'root' of revisionism. An admin here suffered off- and on-wiki personal attacks as a direct result of his 'be bold' policy. The image's status does not retroactively eliminate that fact.

Jeff, as an erstwhile admin admin you should be at least as concerned with maintaining WP:AGF and protecting the integrity of a fellow user (MONGO) as you appear to be with protecting a vanity site. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 13:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll assume good faith and believe that you haven't seen this unfold over the last three days. He suffered attacks that probably weren't warranted at the time in an off-wiki article. His handling of the situation on-wiki isn't excused by it, as understandible as his reaction may be on a symapthetic scale. The fact that those of us who lack certain powers cannot see who uploaded the image in question certainly affects the facts - instead of pointing out exactly who the "attackers" were, everyone who may be tangentically associated with the site, regardless of their actual record or history, are being painted as such. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

If I were an admin, which I'm not, I wouldn't be throwing my administrative weight around to affect the outcome of this article. MONGO's integrity may be lauded in other areas (I've never encountered him prior to this flap, to my knowledge), but his multiple violations of basic policy and guideline regarding page protection, editing, and good faith to other editors has been noted. As for "protecting a vanity website," I don't consider this page vanity, and I believe that it barely skirts the guidelines for web inclusion, guidelines that are way too strict anyway. I do not appreciate that sort of judgement regarding my motives. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Then you know how it feels to be called a 'revisionist'. Bearing in mind that you don't appreciate judgments regarding your motives, please don't disparage others' motives with terms like 'revisionism'. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I'm not judging anyone's motives by calling them revisionist. I'm stating that the presentation of the situation reeks of it. Motives are an entirely different beast which I haven't touched upon on this talk page. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid we disagree about that. By the definition of the word itself, you cannot call someone a 'revisionist' and not be implying a motive. I'll suggest again that you try other vocabulary to resolve the conflict. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:15, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we should just drop it, then. Your suggestions are noted, but unnecessary. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

They are only unnecessary if you choose to continue to employ derogatory terms in your ostensible assumption of good faith. In any case, I've informed you of the derogatory nature of the term, and the irony of your application in this instance. The rest is up to you. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you feel it was right for MONGO to lock the article as an admin and THEN edit it, refusing access to any further edits, after the image vandalism? If so, why? Thanks! rootology 19:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

EDIT: Also, what under policy supported his doing that post-lock edit where he removed the link to ED? rootology 19:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Look folks in rare cases the "ignore all rules" logic applies. Encyclopædia Dramatica had a main page attack on User:MONGO on display when he made his edits. The freaking site has been showing his personal details, name, phone number, etc. Let it go already! (→Netscott) 20:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

So because he decided to overreact, we'll just let it slide since, you kno, we can ignore rules if we see fit. I'd hope we wouldn't stand for that. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Are we to suppose that by your comments such behavior on the part of ED is acceptable? (→Netscott) 20:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I certainly suppose that. As an adminstrator at ED, bdj could have edited the main page to, at the very least, remove private, personal details. He wonders why I won't email him with my real email address? Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no proof or evidence that at the time of this that bdj was an admin at ED. This has been rehashed endlessly by you and is disingenuous. Please don't troll. rootology 21:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no doubt in anyones mind that bdj is an adminstrator at ED. He failed his RFA partially due to it, and did not deny such then, except to say that he didn't really edit the site anymore. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

You said he is now. Proove that. rootology 21:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Badlydrawnjeff "I am a lapsed, inactive admin at Encyclopædia Dramatica" Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

OK. Does that make him responsible for any and all content on an outside website then? Also, again, for better or worse, what content is featured on a 3rd party should have no bearing on the relevance, right to exist, nor content of a WP article. See my Smoking Gun example below. If that site put up EVERY single piece of public-record information for all staff and corporate/foundation info for WP, does that mean that this site no longer is valid to exist within WP or as a link from WP? If we deslist that, do we censure the other pages that pick up the story? If the NY Times reports on the Smoking Gun getting censured, do we censure the NY Times article? Chain reaction of bad decisions based on silly and irrelevant emotional kneejerk responses. If you can counter any of these points, you're welcome to. Beyond that this is starting to feel an awful like "They got MONGO, he's our boy! Let's get 'em!" rootology 21:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't respond to hypotheticals. I meerly state as fact that badlydrawnjeff could have solved the front page on encyclopedia dramatica and chose not to. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

reply on new line please for clarity--my long thing is a reply to you to continue discussion. rootology 20:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

(moving to new line since the old is getting cluttered, response to existing conversation)

For what it is worth, why does what appears on an outside website excuse anything that happens for behavior "on" Misplaced Pages? I'm not saying its right to put his personal data up, but the ED site is not the ED article (and that personal data for better or worse is a legal public record--that's from a WHOIS lookup, apparently). The ED article linked to a 3rd party site no different than how Wikitruth does. All valid and fine within the bounds of WP. Some troll put an offensive reference to MONGO up on the ED article in response to a satirical lambast of him over on the ED site. Not advocating right or wrong, just saying what happened. In response, MONGO starts banning people, locks the ED article on WP, and removes the link to the ED site from the ED article *AFTER* he locked the article. Bias, and against policy. Yes, rules can be thrown out, as they can be the long term basis of setting precedent/being a new policy. But he did this also (later stated) under the guise that the ED *article* was an attack article, and that anyone who contributed to a WP article was a "troll" and should be "perma-banned". I said it before, MONGO should have completely recused himself from this entire mess from the VERY beginning. If I was an admin and someone torched me on ED, slashdot, kurishin, etc., I would have no business getting into 1) edit wars; 2) using my admin powers on that issue. At all. It's wrong. There are 900+ admins. He couldn't get someone non-biased?

For that matter, if Slashdot or Boing Boing tomorrow runs an article flagrantly torching Misplaced Pages itself, Jimbo Wales, or Netscott, or rootology, or MONGO, would it be appropriate for that user to go in, and begin editing the article about that outside site, and REMOVE the links from WP to it? If you say "no", then why was it appropriate in this case with the ED article? Is it because of ED's reputation? Should that even matter? Why should any one instance be considered 'different'? Bad, bad, behavior. 20:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

When Misplaced Pages starts to be used in the furtherance of an attack there is a very serious problem. I won't be the judge of what MONGO did as being right or wrong but I'll tell you what given the fact that someone added an image of the front page showing MONGO to this article makes his subsequent response extremely understandable. (→Netscott) 20:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question. Let me rephrase in simple terms. Is it right to remove to a link from an article about a subject TO that subject, if someone is offended? rootology 21:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

And I'll repeat my response: Misplaced Pages being used in the furtherance of an attack is very wrong. The question of offense isn't even valid... we're talking about the guy's personal information (which opens him up for harrassment)... I now agree with User:Tony Sidaway... it doesn't really make sense for Misplaced Pages to be having articles about Daniel Brandt and Wikitruth, etc. as there is a clear conflict of interest for those editing on such articles. (→Netscott) 21:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

ONE image acted as an attack. ONE. And no one who edits the article has shown any tolerance for attacks on other editors in the article, or tolerance of attacks on other people in the article. One image does not mean that an admin has the right or responsibility to completely ignore multiple policies and guidelines in response, period. As for me, I've never kept my association with ED a secret, and I, to my knowledge, have never been involved in any of the nasty stuff that sometimes goes on there, nor have I used the ED page to attack anyone, nor have I edited the ED page with any sort of agenda. I don't get involved with that sort of stuff on either side of it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Netscott. Misplaced Pages should ALWAYS attempt to evaluate actions and errors on the side of protecting an individual's privacy. While authoritarians may be unable to understand the true meaning of 'Fuck process' and 'ignore all rules', that doesn't them invalid, especially in an instance like this. Such concepts (while anti-authoritarian) are core principles, and part of 'doing the right thing' in this community. And at this point, relentless and continued sniping at MONGO in direct avoidance of the validating circumstances of his actions (suffering serious on- and off-wiki personal attacks) seems to me to be little more than trolling. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Reply to both of you (Netscott and RyanF): Before this I had nothing to do with ED, the ED article, MONGO, or Hypocrite. I edited stuff about my one started project and random articles here and there, helping out. I found this mess and tried to help and got dragged in by lots of inflammatory stuff. I *STRONGLY* disagree that articles on subjects that are critical in any way of WP should BE covered. Not having equal and fair coverage of your critics is wrong. It turns you into a one-sided, half-true thing. In regards to privacy of MONGO and all that: I agree, furtherance of an attack via WP is wrong. But again! If an OUTSIDE SOURCE slams WP in some form, removing links to that is EVEN MORE WRONG ON SO MANY LEVELS IT'S INSANE.

EDIT: controversial, even anti-wiki things SHOULD be covered if of note. Horrible typo...!

(PURELY HYPOTHETICAL) If the New York Times tomorrow drops an expose bomb of magnitude about WP or the WP Foundation, does that not get covered in Wikinews? Does the NY Times article in WP get censured?

I am also in full support of an individual's privacy. But, again, if an outside side provides all the contact information for Jimmy Wales, things that can be found be ten minutes' searching of publically accessible records, does that article get delisted, removed, or censured from WP? If the Smoking Gun puts up personal records or internal records of something to do with WP someday, do we censure the Smoking Gun article? That is my concern. WP should not be playing any role in policing 3rd party sites' content. Linking to them should not be changed based on this. rootology 21:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The article's notability (which has not increased as a result of this planned attack on a WP admin's identity) makes it a valid case for deletion, imho. The abuse leveled at MONGO doesn't make it notable enough to keep, and shouldn't. It's a non-encyclopedic-entity. An article in the NYTimes (which in fact is a reputable source) is a whole lot different than ED, a site that few of us knew about before these attacks (and which remains non-notable). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

RyanFreisling is correct. Unfortunately amongst those who are Wiki editors (which is an infintesimally small amount of the World's population) ED has some notoriety but the moment you step out of the Wiki-sub culture... and say, "Encyclopædia Dramatica" to the average person they're going to respond with... oh wow... an Encyclopædia about plays and acting... sounds interesting. (→Netscott) 21:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)