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Bones (season 11)

I was wondering if somebody could cast an eye over Bones (season 11). The article uses a number of citations from unverified Twitter accounts and discussion forums like http://disqus.com. {{cite tweet}} is used 7 times and disqus.com is used 8 times. I tried removing one of these sources but it was reverted, twice now. One of the editors who reverted me was also involved in the addition of WP:SYNTH at List of Better Call Saul episodes and the ensuing discussion on the talk page there, so simply removing the offending citations there will only start an edit war. --AussieLegend (✉) 19:17, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I've now tagged the unreliable discussion forum citations, and tweets, but would still appreciate a second (or third or fourth) opinion. I did have to remove one completely, as it was not from the person who it claimed to be from, as can be seen by trying to verify the citation:

• Hanson, Hart (May 8, 2015). "Also, Bones is happy to have Randy Zisk stepping into directing producer @it2Ian's wellies (that's Britty for boots). He's also delightful" (Tweet). Retrieved July 15, 2015 – via Twitter. {{Cite tweet}}: |date= / |number= mismatch (help)

--AussieLegend (✉) 17:06, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

OK, since nobody seems interested in actually looking at the article, perhaps somebody could answer a simple question: Are the following tweets acceptable sources?

• Silver, Emily (January 6, 2016). "The Murder of the Meninist! #bones written by @HilaryGraham" (Tweet). Retrieved January 7, 2016 – via Twitter.
• Peterson, Michael (November 3, 2015). "Just started writing my #bones outline for episode 13. Be afraid, people. Be very afraid" (Tweet). Retrieved November 21, 2015 – via Twitter.

--AussieLegend (✉) 05:00, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

If Silver and Peterson are writers for the show, and we have no cause to think that these aren't their real Twitter accounts, then I'd consider them reliable WP:SPS for what little info they contain (I'm guessing the name of the episode). Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:58, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm with you on disqus, though. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:05, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Regarding the Twitter accounts, doesn't that require an assumption though? --AussieLegend (✉) 10:43, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Doesn't it require what assumption? That they're really who they say they are? I suppose some reasonable investigation would be appropriate, but they're not automatically unusable. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:12, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

The problem with Twitter is that anyone can create an account and say anything. Even people involved with a "product" might say something that isn't necessarily true. For example, someone who claims to be a writer might say "I started writing the 13th episode" when the episode that they are writing is the third production code, but will air as the 15th episode. As somebody not very high on the totem pole, they probably aren't privy to the higher level decisions. {{cite tweet}} actually includes the following banner:

Tweets are largely not acceptable as sources. Tweets and other self-published material may sometimes be acceptable, if the conditions specified at WP:SPS or WP:TWITTER are met. For further information, see the Misplaced Pages:Verifiability policy and the Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources guideline.

Verified Twitter accounts have some degree of credibility, but unverified accounts belonging to mere staff members can't really be taken as authoritative. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:04, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

You're making assumptions about several things that has no evidence to back them up. "unverified accounts belonging to mere staff members can't really be taken as authoritative" says who? "As somebody not very high on the totem pole, they probably aren't privy to the higher level decisions" how would you know that and what does that have to do with anything? They're some not assistant or someone who works for craft service, they're a writer for the series. There's nothing in WP:SPS or WP:TWITTER that says a Twitter account has to be verified, as long as it meets the requirements, which it does. There's nothing to suggest that the information being provided in anything but accurate. She posts images of script pages, on-set photos, production meetings, etc. The official Bones Twitter retweets her, she followed by Bones creator Hart Hanson, and Bones actors including Emily Deschanel, John Boyd, and Tamara Taylor–all verified accounts. Every time we've used her as a source for an upcoming episode for Bones (season 11), it has been correct, obviously. I went back and found her Tweets for episode title reveals for episodes that have already been aired, thus the information in then can be verified: episode 1 (of which includes replies by the official Bones Twitter), episode 2, episode 3, episode 5, episode 6, episode 10. Again, there is nothing to suggest the information being provided is false or not authentic, because she is proven to be reliable and correct. Please apply some common sense here. Drovethrughosts (talk) 21:22, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

They're some not assistant or someone who works for craft service, they're a writer for the series. - You're assuming that they are a writer. As WP:SPS says, Anyone can create a personal web page ... and also claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason ... Internet forum postings, and social media postings, are largely not acceptable as sources. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:50, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

You're ignoring every fact I stated and piece of evidence I've used. To assume she is not who is she is absurd and illogical. Again, common sense would be nice. Clearly this isn't going anywhere. Moving on... Drovethrughosts (talk) 14:56, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

@Drovethrughosts: I agree with you 100% on everything you stated here. It is next to impossible to get AussieLegend to change his viewpoint on anything, so sometimes it just isn't worth trying. Not everything on Misplaced Pages boils down to policy, some things just need to be handled with common sense, and it appears that AussieLegend somewhat lacks in that department. Rswallis10 (talk) 21:35, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Please remain civil when commenting. Comment on content, not the contributor! --AussieLegend (✉) 19:00, 6 February 2016 (UTC) --AussieLegend (✉) 19:00, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: Apologies... Rswallis10 (talk) 19:18, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

When I say that some reasonable investigation is appropriate before using a Twitter account, I mean things like whether the account is retweeted by or otherwise clearly has the confidence of something official, whether it is attributed to an expert (a writer for a show is an expert on that show), etc. I'd say Drovethrughosts has done this investigation, and my take is that the Twitter account is usable with caution per WP:SPS unless some specific reason to doubt its veracity should emerge. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:20, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

@Darkfrog24:Fair enough, I'll respect your opinion. Interestingly though, after removing the tags from the article, Drovethrughosts contacted the editor who apparently added the disqus links. That editor subsequently replaced the {{unreliable source}} tags with notes claiming that the citations were reliable. His claims are similar to those put forward by ChaosMaster16, an editor who was indef-blocked for insisting on using pifeedback.com after this discussion. There still seems to be a strong belief in a number of editors, especially in the TV project, that unreliable sources can be used when there are no reliable sources (or it's too hard to find them). --AussieLegend (✉) 06:58, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Well I certainly don't agree that unreliable sources are usable if there are no reliable ones available. Per my interpretation of WP:NEWSBLOG, it is never okay to use comments left by readers as sources. But what it looks like is going on here is that the information was in the body of a reliable source that used to be available. This is covered in the WP:LINKROT essay. If the Wikieditor saw the original source with his or her own eyes and that original source was RS, then he or she may cite that original source even if it is no longer available online. This does not apply if the Wikieditor only ever saw the current Disqus link and replies.

But the content here is just ratings. Can't you guys just look this up in TVBytheNumbers or something? Even a local paper might have this information. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:16, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't think that LINKROT applies here as the content was never cited to another website. The first source was added in October 2015, sourced to disqus. The whole table was removed in November because of this, but was restored, along with more citations sourced to the same forum. There is no way for anyone to verify that these comments were ever part of another website. All we have is a discussion forum. Your suggestion regarding TVBytheNumbers is spot on. I've already mentioned this on the editor's talk page, and the article's talk page as well. Ironically, there are citations in the article's episode list. I don't know why these aren't being used. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:07, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

If the other Wikieditor never saw the information in a reliable source, then the other Wikieditor never saw the information in a reliable source. What I'd do is contact the commenter, SonoftheBronx, and ask him where he found that ratings information, but the comment is not RS by itself. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:04, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

@Darkfrog24: Hello, I'm the "other Wikieditor" that you've been referring to. I think it's time for me to add to this discussion since it's pretty much about me. First of all in response to your most recent comment, I did see the information on TV Media Insights before the page was deleted because that is only way how I knew where to get the DISQUS URL. Second, SonoftheBronx has been providing Nielsen ratings since 2011, and has never been called into question once (see item 3 in the list below). Finally, here is a list of reasons why I think these DISQUS comments are reliable sources, I left on my talk page for AussieLegend to read:

1. DISQUS IS NOT A FORUM. I don't know how many times I can say that. It is a program that allows comments to be archived even after a page or website is deleted.

2. The data on that page comes from TV Media Insights (WHICH IS A RELIABLE SOURCE); however, that site was deleted, and therefore all of the content can no longer be found on the active web.

3. The person who runs the website (Douglas Pucci aka SONOFTHEBRONX) is a reliable source, because his data has been used on The Futon Critic AND TV by the Numbers , both of which you refer to as "reliable sources".

4. I personally do not like the DISQUS link either, but it is the ONLY way to retrieve the RELIABLE data. The website was deleted, and the comments are NOT archived by the Wayback Machine since they are saved on the DISQUS servers rather than the TV Media Insights servers. Since they are stored offline, they were saved when the website went down.

5. There is no other "better" source to use, which is why I am using the DISQUS links. Bones is a show that doesn't always make the TVBTN Live+7 Top 25 lists, so when it doesnt, I use the data from Douglas Pucci to fill in the chart. If you looked at the Live+7 data from TVBTN, you would see that the data isn't always there.

6. Also, this one last thing should really help my case. You said that there is no way to tell if the data was ever ACTUALLY on the TV Media Insights page. I completely forgot that when Google Caches the pages, it does archive the comments. Here is a link to a cached page from TVMI that has the comments in the bottom (this is from a season 10 rating). This proves that the comments were originally from the page and not "posted on a discussion forum". You too "can see with your own eyes" that the comments are there.

I hope this give you all the assurances you need about the validity and reliability of the data. If there was a better source to use, you'd better bet I would use that one instead, but there just isn't any other source. Rswallis10 (talk) 18:49, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Did you originally see this information in an article or in a comment/reply?

5. I can see why it's desirable to have the whole chart match, but if there's no reliable source for a piece of information, then it shouldn't be included, even if that leaves the article lopsided.

1. Yes, it's true that DISQUS is not a forum. But regardless of whether DISQUS articles are RS, replies and comments made to those articles by readers are not.

2. If you read this information in an article in TV Media Insights, then write up a ref tag citing that article. (I'd say that their contributor Marc Berman, for example, is a good source .) However, if you only saw this information in a comment/reply to that article, that's another matter.

3. Douglas Pucci looks like he meets WP:SPS expert criteria.

4. Sources do not have to have up-to-date links to be usable and valid, per WP:SOURCEACCESS. Adding a convenience link to DISQUS could be acceptable, but it looks like citing it as the sole reference has led people to believe that it was the sole reference. It sounds like you're saying that's not the case.

It looks like the core question is one of these two things, "Is an article written by known expert Douglas Pucci acceptable as a source even after that article is no longer available online?" I say yes it is. However, "Is a reply or comment written by known expert Douglas Pucci a reliable source?" is a much grayer area, possibly worth an RfC. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:07, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

At this point I'd welcome an RfC, as Rswallis10 seems more interested in simply removing the tags in the article, rather than determining whether the comments are acceptable. --AussieLegend (✉) 20:12, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: When we are going for a consensus, isn't the protocal to return the page to the way it was BEFORE the problem started?? I think yes. You added the maintenance tags which caused this discussion, so if we are going to have an RfC, then we should return the page to the way it was before correct? Rswallis10 (talk) 20:41, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

If we were talking about content changes this might apply, but we're talking about verifiability and the appropriateness of sources. The addition of maintenance tags to highlight problems in an article is appropriate. You should be aware of this from your attempts to remove maintenance tags from List of Better Call Saul episodes, and Geraldo Perez had to revert your persistent removal of tags there. --AussieLegend (✉) 19:08, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

@Darkfrog24: first of all, I appreciate you being reasonable about this, and trying to have a discussion. Second, to answer your question, YES I did originally see this information in a comment/reply on the article. Douglas Pucci said that he was going to stop adding L+7 tables in his articles. but we were welcome to request them in the comments, and he would answer them. There are many cases on Misplaced Pages where ratings are found in the comments section of a webpage. Most notably, in Summer 2009, TVBTN only provided the Top 20 shows in their articles, but the authors of the site (Robert Seidman and Bill Gorman) responded to requests in the comments. I think that as long as the information is coming from a reliable source (which we agree that Douglas Pucci is), the medium through which the information is coming from becomes irrelevant. Why is a number provided by Mr. Pucci on his website more reliable than that same number provided as a comment, or as a tweet? I think common sense would tell us that all 3 are reliable because it is essentially the same source (Mr. Pucci). The link to DISQUS is a convenience link as you said; you click the link, and it takes you right to where the rating is. However, if AussieLegend is as vehemently against DISQUS as he says he is, then I'll be perfectly fine linking it to the page that doesnt exist anymore (but really what would be the point of that?). I really think logic needs to prevail here, but based on my previous run-ins with AussieLegend, it will be his way or the highway. Rswallis10 (talk) 20:37, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't mean linking to the deadlink article. I mean writing out the ref for that article. Name the author and the title and the publisher and the date and all that. Use the "quote" option. Leave a hidden note explaining that SonoftheBronx is established expert Douglas Pucci. Make it very clear that the information did not come DISQUS initially and the link is only provided for convenience. The rules do not require you to use the long-form citation format every time, but if you had done so, it might have been obvious to AussieLegend and others that this was a reliable (or at least arguably reliable) source. Frankly, if I clicked the link and saw nothing but a comment by "SonoftheBronx," I'd delete it too.

As to whether the information should go out or stay in while the RfC is in progress, I could see this going either way. With the season not set to restart for a while yet, it's not heavily time-sensitive but neither do the facts seem to be in doubt. Either one of you could be gracious and defer to the other's preferences for the week or so that it would take to resolve this. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:53, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

@Darkfrog24: If you look at the references on the article that I wrote, all of them actually site the original article. The author says Douglas Pucci, the publisher says TV Media Insights, and I even included the date of the original article publication, rather than the date of the comment. The URL is to the disqus comment page, but everything else in the references relates to the original article itself. I personally don't like the way the table looks right now with the maintenance tags (and any readers who visit the page will not like them either), but AussieLegend needs to get his way, so I will allow them to stay until the RfC is done. Thank you for your input. Rswallis10 (talk) 21:30, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

So you did. I had your diff confused with someone else's. Sorry about that. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:37, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

"SonoftheBronx has been providing Nielsen ratings since 2011, and has never been called into question once" - That's not correct. SonoftheBronx has been discussed many times here. It is also listed at WP:TVFAQ#No consensus on reliability as not having achieved consensus as to reliability. Relevant discussions are here, here, here and here. The Son of the Bronx website was apparently closed because of copyright violations, which itself raises alarm bells. Apparently he was posting raw Nielsen data, which other sites also have access to.

"that site was deleted, and therefore all of the content can no longer be found on the active web." - Let's get some perspective here. The episodes being cited are from October and November 2015 over a 7 week period. That's only 2-4 months ago and the citations were added at that time, with the site apparently dead as soon as episodes aired. It's not like we're talking ratings for a program that aired in the 1970s. Ratings are clearly available on other sites. The figures for episode 9, which aired in December 2015, are cited to Tv By the Numbers. That being the case, there is no reason that the comments section of a dead site should be used just because it's the preference of a single editor.

"Bones is a show that doesn't always make the TVBTN Live+7 Top 25 lists, so when it doesnt, I use the data from Douglas Pucci to fill in the chart." - If Bones doesn't always make the lists then do we really gain anything by having this information? For quite some time now, ratings tables have been problematic. Unnecessary pretty colours, multiple MOS violations (MOS:ACCESS/MOS:DTT, MOS:HASH, MOS:CAPS, MOS:BOLD are common problems), redundant HTML code, overcomplicated code and ridiculous formatting are just a few of the issues. For that reason, {{Television episode ratings}} was created to standardise ratings tables, and the information being added to the article exceeds what {{Television episode ratings}} includes. Ratings have been discussed on numerous occasions, including when we added a section on series overview tables to the MOS (see this discussion).

The citations added by Rswallis10 are, at the very best, confusing. They cite Douglas Pucci as the author, but he isn't mentioned anywhere in the source. They cite "TV Media Insights" in the |work= field, but the citations link to disqus, which is just forum type posts. Any reader without intricate knowledge is only going to see these as discussion forum posts, especially when the url includes the word "discussion". Even assuming that somebody can work out that the author is SonOfTheBronx, looking at the SonOfTheBronx disqus page provides no indication that Douglas Pucci = SonOfTheBronx. Following a link to "Programming Insider" from that page sends you to https://disqus.com/home/forum/programminginsider, which is clearly a discussion forum on disqus. Despite protestations to the contrary, these are all forums meant for discussions. "Disqus" is not a misspelling of "discus", it's a play on "discuss". The homepage includes the explanations "Great discussions are happening here" and "Disqus offers publishers the best tools in the universe to power discussions". Let's get rid of this silly notion that these "comments" sections are not discussion forums, when they clearly are. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:37, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: "Let's get rid of this silly notion that these "comments" sections are not discussion forums, when they clearly are." <- Pardon my French, but that's bulls**t. Please pick any "discussion" from a Programming Insider or TV Media Insights page and find me an actual discussion. Sure, there are some sites that use DISQUS for discussions, but that is NOT the purpose of them on by these 2 sites. The DISQUS is a COMMENT SECTION, not a FORUM. Are things discussed in the comment section? Sure they are, that's the point of them, but IT IS NOT A FORUM. There is no grandiose topic that everything is talking about or adding advice about, it is simply a place for people to request Nielsen data from a reliable expert. SonOfTheBronx is NOT a reader, he is the person who writes the articles and has access to Nielsen data that most every people don't have. It's quite a simple fact that NOT EVERYTHING can make it into an article, so for the things that don't make the article, they are requested in the COMMENTS. In this case, DISQUS does NOT serve as a discussion forum, but rather an extension of he article itself and therefore reliable. @Darkfrog24: do you agree with that? Rswallis10 (talk) 17:19, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

If somebody posts something and somebody replies to it, as happens in the "comments" section, that's a discussion. It doesn't matter whether you call it a "comments" section, it's still a discussion forum. Regardless, these are exactly the sort of comments that WP:SPS is aimed at when it says "Internet forum posts". --AussieLegend (✉) 18:56, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: I actually don't think that WP:SPS applies here at all. Simple fact: SonOfTheBronx writes the articles on ProgrammingInsider.com which is published by Marc Berman (a known Television expert). While SonOfTheBronx.com may be a self published source, Programming Insider obviously isn't, and that's what we're currently discussing. Rswallis10 (talk) 19:15, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

WP:SPS applies everywhere. Misplaced Pages:Verifiability is a core policy and can't be ignored. The citations you included are not on "Programming Insider". They are sourced to disqus.com with no verifiable evidence that they came from anywhere else. The comments are allegedly from SonofTheBronx, not Marc Berman, and there is no consensus as to SonofTheBronx's acceptability as a source, as has already been discussed. --AussieLegend (✉) 19:25, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

I checked the links to old RSN discussions and they do not seem conclusive. The WikiProject Television archive similarly closed with no consensus either way. That doesn't mean that SotB is reliable but it doesn't mean he isn't either. I'd say an RfC specifically about Son of the Bronx might be appropriate.

As for whether there's any value in these ratings figures, yes, I'd say that if the other figures are notable then these are too. It's acceptable for a chart to be lopsided but it's best for it not to be. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:23, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

The outcome of the previous discussions is why SoTB is listed in the "No consensus on reliability" section of WP:TVFAQ. However, the fact that SoTB website was closed because of copyright concerns is something we should be at least a little bit concerned about. Are the SoTB posts LINKVIOs? I don't know, and we do still use ratings figures from SoTB. I agree regarding the RfC. My question regarding the value of the ratings figures was probably a little bit ambiguous. Perhaps I should have asked, are the figures important enough that we are willing to accept using forum comments as a source, when forum comments are not reliable sources? --AussieLegend (✉) 05:37, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: @Darkfrog24: What exactly are we trying to do here? How many RfC's do we need? Darkfrog24 has been very good at reading both sides of the story, and coming to the conclusion that we need an RfC on whether or not "comments/reply's from a reliable source are considered reliable" which is pretty much what your problem was origninally. Now, it looks like your problem is with THE WORLD itself. You want an RfC for the reliability of SonOfTheBronx, and one for the importance of a ratings table, etc. Second, It is pretty obvious to me that SonOfTheBronx is a reliable source, and even Darkfrog24 agrees that it's evident. AussieLegend please tell me what makes you so untrustworthy of people? First, you assume that the Twitter account of the Bones people are "fake" even though they are followed by members of the cast (all verified), and the show itself (verified), and now you assume that SonOfTheBronx isn't reliable because his site was shut down? Nielsen did not have his site shut down, it was blogger. He said that the pages were removed "Despite numerous references to sources of ratings information (included in every single blog post)," so I don't think that bogus copyright infringement should still not make SonOfTheBronx a relible source. Here is SonOfTheBronx's thoughts on this nonsense: its a good read. Third, yes we could leave most of the ratings table blank, BUT WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF THAT? If we have a reliable source for the information (SOTB), then WHY WOULD WE LEAVE IT BLANK? That thinking just doesn't make any sense to me at all. Common sense REALLY, REALLY, REALLY needs to prevail here, and I truly hope that it does. There is only so much "policy quoting" that you can do (Seems to Aussie's favorite thing) before we just need to step back and look at this logically. Rswallis10 (talk) 14:25, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

A few things: 1) Neither I nor anyone else at this noticeboard gets to decide this issue. It's not binding arbitration. We're just adding our voices because at least one of you thought more voices were needed. 2) My own take is that if SonoftheBronx has been concretely identified as Douglas Pucci, and if Pucci is reliable then comments that he leaves in response to readers in articles that he wrote can sometimes be used if they're straightforward. This seems to be one of those times. 3) The issue is whether Pucci is reliable. So the question is this: Did those previous RfCs deal with Pucci specifically? Was there anything wrong or missing?

The other question: Is there anywhere else we could get this information that would not involve all this controversy? I think that discussing sources on RSN is a perfectly valid way to spend one's time and energy—if it doesn't produce results for this content then everyone involved gets more familiar with the policies for next time—but would reinvesting any of it in further searching be more helpful?

Hang on... Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:46, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

• We do not 'need an RfC on whether or not "comments/reply's from a reliable source are considered reliable"'. That's a confusion of a reputable author (i.e. an expert, a professional journalist working for a serious publication, etc.) and a reliable source. A reliable source is a book, article, etc. by a reputable author, from a reputable publisher. Not all output from a reputable author is from a reputable publisher, so it's not all reliable (otherwise every single person who ever got an article or a book published would be auto-reliable for everything, all the time). Not even every reliable source, in one context, from such an author and publisher is a reliable source in other contexts. An article by Stan Lee on the history of American comics, published in a professionally edited anthology on comics, from something other than a self-publishing house, is probably a reliable source (aside from Marvel Comics biases) on American comics, but it would not be one for physics information Lee mentioned in it, like why it might actually be plausible for a superhero to fly. We might treat a blog self-published by Lee as a low-quality primary source we could use with caution for certain things, with proper direct attribution. But if he just tweets something or posts a comment on someone else's blog, that's not a reliable source for much of anything, even if he can be positively identified as the real post, except the simple facts that Lee seems to have posted there, and what it is he seems to have posted. It would be shaky to even use it directly quoted to attribute an opinion to him, and we certainly can't use it for WP:AEIS material of any kind. I agree with comments above that if the information in the case at hand – these statistics – are real, they must be obtainable from something other than random passers-by on random blogs. Just because some consider SonOfTheBronx to be a more-or-less reputable blogger in a certain narrow set of topics does not mean that every off-the-cuff comment they make reflects even the unexamined diligence level we hope is applied to their blog-journalism.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  22:25, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: Some clarifications on this. First, SonOfTheBronx is not just a more-or-less reputable blogger, so can you please do your research before you come here and say stuff like that? He writes for ProgrammingInsider.com, which is not just some "blog," it is a top tier entertainment website. Second, I understand your example about Stan Lee, but I'm not sure that applies here. SonOfTheBronx's comments are not subjective opinions, they are objective ratings coming from Nielsen. He is not expressing an expert opinion, or explaining anything, he is simply stating objective facts in a comment. Rswallis10 (talk) 04:59, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

This is totally irrelevant, and you missed the point, despite also having it explained to you on you talk page in more detail. It doesn't matter if this person were the #1 foremost authority on entertainment news and trivia in the entire world, their passerby-comments on someone else's blog are not a reliable source, because a RS requires a reputable publisher. J. Schmoe and their blog are not a reputable publisher of Super-mega Expert's comment. Even if they were posted at a competing newsblog, not a J. Schmoe blog. The reason is obvious: Reader's letters to the editor are not reliable sources, even when the come from a newspaper, which does typically exert a degree of editorial control over them (e.g. censoring profanity, and redacting asides, for length), and total editorial control about whether they see print in the first place. If a letter to the editor in The Times or The New York Times, including from a purported expert, is not am RS, it is not even remotely possible that a comment on a blog is an RS. That's enough to just stop and move on.

I'll address the other points because they seem to need it, to improve your approach to these matters, even if this particular case doesn't require these notes. As for even SonOfTheBronx's own blog material at ProgrammingInsider.com: Unless his work on those posts is subject to the same level of editorial control as articles at a newspaper, it's a low-quality primary source that must be used "with caution" if at all, as a matter of policy. It doesn't matter how popular and well-regarded the site is. Thirdly, if SonOfTheBronx's comments about the Nielsen ratings cannot be verified with an RS, they are in fact simply that commenter's opinion. Anyone can say "according to The Huffington Post's "Intelligence Community" section and The New York Times' "U.S. Intelligence Community News section", the NSA and MI-6 have confirmed space aliens have spies in almost every country" (a claim with two secondary and two primary sources of high reliability); if we can find no such news articles or agency/ministry press releases, it's just Internet noise we cannot cite as a source (exception: if the claim itself were notable, e.g. for causing an Orson Welles, War of the Worlds-style panic, then it could be cited as a primary source for its own wording, date, and by-line). If SonOfTheBronx's Nielsen Ratings source is real, we should be able to find that (these ratings are published), and cite it. There is no need to ever even try to cite that blog comment, either way. Please do your homework about policy before telling others to do theirs about some website. Our policies are written to address general classes of circumstance, so that we don't have agonize over particular cases as if there's no precedent for how to handle them. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  14:35, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Accuracy of SonoftheBronx figures

Sorry. I should have thought of this days ago. I searched for Bones ratings and found this TVseriesfinale.com and then I found this by searching for "Bones" and "6.197" tvratings.telekomanda.com tviv.org. These sources do not meet our expert criteria, but the information that they contain contradicts what we see in the DISQUS comment. Searches for "Bones" and "8.618" to corroborate SonoftheBronx's figures produced only forums. Regardless of whether Pucci is reliable in general, and even experts can make mistakes, the accuracy of this specific content is now in question. Determining whether or not he has expert status is not just a formality. I'd say "don't use." Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:10, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

@Darkfrog24: Hi, can I clarify a couple things? The issue on the Bones article is with DVR ratings table, not the Live+SD ratings that appear in the episode table. The 6.197 refers to the number of L+SD (people who watched it on the night it aired), and that number can be found on other reliable sources including TV Media Insights (SonOfTheBronx himself reported it) , ShowBuzzDaily , and even TVBTN (but it was rounded) . No one is questioning the validity of the 6.197 figure, as that can be found in many places, the thing being questioned is the number of people who watched the show on their DVR's (which is referred to as Live +7 ratings). The show had 2.42M DVR viewers in its first week (for a total of 8.62M, because 6.20M (Live) + 2.42M (DVR) = 8.62M) according to SonOfTheBronx here: . As you can see from the TVBTN L+7 chart from that week , Bones is nowhere to be found (which is why it was requested).

Now that I hope I've shown that Douglas Pucci is reliable, let me bring up the TV Series Finale issue. Ironically, TV Series Finale also requests data from SonOfTheBronx, as you can see in the following links: , , , , and here ; there's more, but I think that more than proves my point. Rswallis10 (talk) 00:34, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Okay, so the figures differ because they're not talking about the same thing. Got it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:40, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

@Darkfrog24:. One more thing: I found 2 TVBTN articles that actually have 'Bones' in it. I'm going to link the TVBTN article, and the SonOfTheBronx reply, so you can do a side-by-side comparison of the data. You will see that both sources say the exact same thing. My point is that if SOTB's data matches the TVBTN data (for the 2 weeks that I have it), can't we use common sense to say that all of the SonOfTheBronx data is correct as well (even if it isn't on TVBTN for that week)???

Example 1. October 29 Episode: TVBTN . SonOfTheBronx

Example 2. December 10 Episode: TVBTN , SonOfTheBronx

My thought is that, even though TVBTN doesn't have all of the Bones data, if the data it has DOES MATCH the data SonOfTheBronx provided for those 2 days, isn't logical to conclude that the rest of the data SOTB provided is also correct? Rswallis10 (talk) 00:54, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

My concerns about accuracy have been assuaged. I can see why the previous discussion couldn't form consensus on this source. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:06, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

@Darkfrog24: So do you believe that these DISQUS comments are okay to use as citations on the page? That's pretty much what this whole discussion boils down to. Also, when you say "I can see why the previous discussion couldn't form consensus on this source" what exactly do you mean? Like in regards to the complexity of the issue, or something else? Again, I thank you for taking an active role in this discussion. Rswallis10 (talk) 03:35, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I think you need more than I can do for you. AussieLegend has agreed to do an RfC. If you guys have trouble agreeing on a neutral wording, I can review a draft. My belief is that the issue is whether Pucci is a reliable expert source per WP:SPS, not whether comments he makes in the articles he writes should be rejected because they are comments; they should not. However, if that is in dispute, it should also be addressed. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:46, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

@Darkfrog24: I know what an RfC is; however, I have never done one before. I'm ready to do one whenever @AussieLegend: wants to, but where is the proper place to put it, and how do we get more editors involved? I know you've reached your limit on what more you can do here, but some guidance on this process would be greatly appreciated. And yes, I think both of these issues need to be addressed in the RfC because AussieLegend seems have a problem with both aspects. Rswallis10 (talk) 03:55, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

The RfC should be run at the Bones season 11 talk page. It should be phrased clearly and neutrally. The instructions are at WP:RFC. You are allowed to tell people that the RfC is in progress and to encourage them to participate. The instructions are at WP:CANVASS. A notice should probably be placed on Wikiproject: Television. The trick to a successful RfC is to phrase the issue at hand very clearly. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:38, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

catholic-hierarchy.org

Hi, I added some information to a website and provided a source to www.catholic-hierarchy.org. I was told do not re-add the references since it was unreliable and if I disagree to make my case here. all the entries were either biographies of long deceased Roman Catholic bishops or listings of bishops on the diocese/archdiocese wikipage. This website has been used for years on English Misplaced Pages and has not been questioned by its contributors; and there are literally 1000s of Misplaced Pages articles using the reference. It is also heavily used by Misplaced Pages in other languages.

• Diego de Arce y Reinoso
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Astorga
• Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Mérida-Badajoz
• Gonzalo Sánchez de Somoza Quiroga
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Segovia
• Roman Catholic Diocese of Mondoñedo-Ferrol
• Isidoro Caja de la Jara

The reason for the removal is non-reliable source which I disagree with as there is ample support on the internet that it is reliable. It is also self-published but as I read it " Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." So I went out to get a variety of sources that cite the website which I would include sufficient third party publications. Thanks for your consideration.

catholic-hierarchy.org is recommended by several archdioceses and archdioceses and referenced by Vatican Radio

• Archdiocese of Chicago recommended websites
• Archdiocese of Bangkok
• Diocese of Galle recommended websites
• Catholic Diocese of Jammu and Srinigar recommended websites
• Vatican Radio: "Chad: A “frontier Church" at the Synod in Rome" "Statistics vary but according to 'catholic-hierarchy.org..."

• Encyclopedia.com

Several prominent Catholic church watchers and journalists have used catholic-hierarchy.org as a reference including:

• John L. Allen, Jr. uses it as a reference National Catholic Reporter: "Religious-order bishops are a long but contested tradition" by John L. Allen, Jr. Feb. 17, 2009 \ "Based on lists provided by the Catholic Hierarchy Web site (www.catholic-hierarchy.org)"
• Sandro Magister lists it as a recommended website Diocesi e vescovi. Il chi è della gerarchia cattolica nel mondo. A cura di David M. Cheney, in inglese
• canon lawyer Edward N. Peters lists it as a reference - here is his profile
• Rocco Palmo uses it Whispers in the Loggia
• Sede Vacante Diocesan Administration By Nord Aaron Paul "A privately operated website, catholic.hierarchy.org, proved to have abundant and accurate data and was extremely helpful in finding and confirming the information in other sources"

Various libraries and similar organizations list catholic-hierarchy.org as a reference

• Stanford University Libraries: Cardinal Francis Arinze
• Byzantine Catholic Seminary Library - list of Byzantine Catholic Websites
• John Paul the Great Catholic University website
• The Catholic Historical Society of Western Pennsylvania - resources
• Catholic Trust for England and Wales states "To see the structure of the Catholic Church’s Hierarchy go to www.catholic-hierarchy.org."
• The Free Online Site of Washington History: "Bishop Augustin Blanchet dedicates Washington's original St. James Cathedral at Fort Vancouver on January 23, 1851"
• Universidad Autónoma Metropolitana Unidad Azcapotzalco México Estampas del catolicismo en México by Rodolfo Soriano Núñez

Mainstream newspapers cite catholic-hierarchy.org as a resource

• Washington Post: "Pope Benedict XVI's path to the papacy" Sources: News services, Vatican, www.catholic-hierarchy.org | The Washington Post February 11, 2013
• Boston Globe Sources SOURCES: AmericanCatholic.org; Archdiocese of Boston; Catholic Encyclopedia; Catholic-hierarchy.org; "Dictionary of the Liturgy;" Father Jason A. Gray of the Peoria Archdiocese; United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
• Michigan Live: "Aging priesthood part of the Catholic struggle"

Catholic newspapers list catholic-hierarchy.org as a reference

• Society of St Pius the X: "Worldwide 187 dioceses without a bishop" July 15, 2013</ref>
• Catholic Universe: "The Catholic press in the UK" 4th December 2009
• Adoremus Bulletin Note: Mailing addresses of US bishops are on the USCCB web site: www.usccb.org/bishops.shtml). Another useful website is http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org.
• The Tablet: "Obituaries" May 17, 2012
• National Catholic Register: "Concerns Rising Over Slow Appointments of Bishops" by Edward Pentin 07/13/2013 "According to figures on Catholic-Hierarchy.org, eight U.S. dioceses are without a bishop, plus two U.S. eparchies (dioceses of Eastern rite churches)."
• La Croix: "Des cardinaux de plus en plus nombreux et de plus en plus âgés"
• Catholic News Perspectives: Wind set to rustle among Philadelphia Catholics Published: 23 July 2011
• Zenit News Agency "ZENIT’s own editorial director, Jesús Colina, has this to say about it: “My staff and I consult catholic-hierarchy.org dozens of times a day. Behind basically every reference we make to any member of the Church hierarchy — and we make thousands — there’s a quick look at this site.”

• Population Reference Bureau: "The Changing Demographics of Roman Catholics" by Rogelio Saenz (August 2005)

Numerous books cite catholic-hierarchy.org in their bibliography

• The Next Pope By Anura Guruge
• The Virgin Mary and Catholic Identities in Chinese History By Jeremy Clarke
• Religions of the World: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Beliefs and Practices : Six Volumes by J. Gordon Melton and Martin Baumann
• Two Texts By Edward Everett Hale by Edward Everett Hale, Hsuan L. Hsu, Susan Kalter
• Uncertain Honor: Modern Motherhood in an African Crisis By Jennifer Johnson-Hanks
• Religion and Post-Conflict Statebuilding: Roman Catholic and Sunni Islamic Perspectives (Palgrave Studies in Compromise) Mar 4, 2015 by Denis Dragovi
• Imagining the Creole City : The Rise of Literary Culture in Nineteenth-Century New Orleans by Rien Fertel
• Church Confronts Modernity: Catholicism since 1950 in the United States, Ireland, and Quebec / Edition 1 - by Leslie Woodcock Tentler
• The Encyclopedia of Caribbean Religions: Volume 1: A-L; Volume 2: M-Z by Patrick Taylor
• Charity and the Great Hunger in Ireland: The Kindness of Strangers by Christine Kinealy
• Democracy, Culture, Catholicism: Voices from Four Continents edited by Michael Schuck, John Crowley-Buck
• Mission, Communion and Relationship: A Roman Catholic Response to the Crisis of Male Youths in Africa Mission, Communion and Relationship: A Roman Catholic Response to the Crisis of Male Youths in Africa by Peter Addai-Mensah
• PLOS
• Diplomatic Missions of the Holy See in Hungary and East-Central Europe after theSecond World War by Margit BALOGH
• University of Southern California: "WHY IS THE NUMBER OF CATHOLIC PRIESTS DIMINISHING IN PORTUGAL? ANALYSIS OF THE PERIOD 1960-2002 MOURAO, Paulo R.
• Light a Candle. Encounters and Friendship with China. Festschrift in Honour of Angelo S. Lazzarotto P.I.M.E. Edited by Roman MALEK and Gianni CRIVELLER. (Collectanea Serica). Sankt Augustin, Institut Monumenta Serica; Nettetal, Steyler Verlag, 2010. viii+564 pp.
• To Whom Does Christianity Belong?: Critical Issues in World Christianity By Dyron B. Daughrity
• The Changing World Religion Map: Sacred Places, Identities, Practices and Politics Feb 3, 2015 by Stanley D. Brunn
• Eine Marienerscheinung in Zeiten der Diktatur: der Konflikt um Peñablanca By Oliver Grasmück

Numerous Catholic churches and schools cite catholic-hierarchy.org as a resource

• Archdiocese of Washington uses it as a resource for student assignments
• Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Westminister: "Obtaining Proof of Membership of the Catholic Church – Guidance for Schools"
• RC Church of Christ the King recommended websites
• Catholic Family News: "Dangerous Synod Proposal: New Language” for Natural Law" by John Vennari
• St Brendan the Navigator Parish recommended websites
• St Mary of the Desert Catholic Church recommended websites
• Catholic Parish of St Gregory the Great recommended websites
• St Paul the Apostle Catholic Church recommended websites
• Our Lady of Mercy Church recommended websites
• St Pascal Church recommended websites
• St Paul Catholic Church recommended websites
• St Thomas Benedictine Abbey Kappadu recommended websites
• Sacred hearts of Jesus and Mary recommended websites
• Carmelites of Mary Immaculate recommended websites
• Holy Family Parish in Poland Ohio recommended websites
• St Mary of the Immaculate Conception Greenville recommended websites
• Blessed Sacrament Church of Buffalo recommended websites
• St Alphonsa Catholic Church recommended websites
• St Charles Borromeo Parish and School recommended websites
• Good Shepherd Parish recommended websites
• Claretian Missionaires Sri Lanka recommended websites
• Catholic Parish of Ivanhoe recommended websites
• The Catholic Community of Our Lady of Fatima recommended websites
• RC Church of Christ the King
• St Pius Parish bulletin
• St Francis Cathedral bulletin
• St Christopher Church recommended websites
• St Mary's Parish - Navan Ireland recommended websites
• Saint John Neuman Sunbury recommended websites
• Diocese of Plymouth: "Churches in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Plymouth An Architectural and Historical Review"
• St Joseph de Clairval Abbey in Flavigny Links
• St Hugh of Lincoln references it in a biography
• St William Catholic Church spiritual links

The website is actually named catholic-hierarchy.org. I have changed the topic thread to match. The reasons it is not acceptable on Misplaced Pages, as I have told Patapsco913, are manifold: (1) it is WP:USERG user-generated content. (2) it is a WP:SPS run by one guy, Dcheney (talk · contribs), with no "editorial oversight or reputation for fact-checking." (3) it has been proven inaccurate on many occasions, as it puts bishops in their sees after appointment rather than upon installation, in violation of Canon Law procedure. Elizium23 (talk) 02:31, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Technically, Elizium, that is not a violation of canon law. Instead, it is a difference between appointment and possession, which is rightly illustrated on the website. The Holy See website (http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino.html) announces the appointment of the new bishop, and the diocese announces the date of the ceremonies of canonical possession and installation. This is true from the smallest diocese to the Diocese of Rome.Vlaams243 (talk) 23:54, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I cannot believe that all these Catholic churches and dioceses would use a webpage that is so horribly unreliable. The Archdiocese of Chicago lists it as one of four references on the page above. If it is seen as a good reference by the Catholic Church about the Catholic Church then we should use it on Misplaced Pages. It by and large only lists the names and terms of long-deceased bishops, the time line of various dioceses, and Catholic populations in those dioceses. John L. Allen, Jr. and Sandro Magister are top journalists regarding the Catholic church. I would think that they would investigate it before using it as a reference. The rule says "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." There seem to be enough reliable third party publications. Anyhow, where has it been proven false in a reliable third party source?Patapsco913 (talk) 02:39, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Doesn't really matter, it fails the RS tests. Guy (Help!) 11:02, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

"Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Catholic-Hierarchy.org is reliable and has a reputation for fact-checking based on the opinion of 1) the Catholic Church (as evidenced by all Archdiocese, Dioceses, and parishes that recommend it as a reliable source - and Vatican Radio even uses it); 2) the academic community (as evidenced by the numerous books and publications that use it as a reference); 3) the mainstream news community (Washington Post, Boston Globe) who use it as a reference; 4) prominent Catholic commentators (John L. Allen, Jr., Sandro Magister, Rocco Palmo) and canon lawyer (Edward N. Peters) who use it as a reference; and 5) Catholic institutions (Society of St Pius the X), university libraries (Stanford), and Catholic newspapers (The Tablet, National Catholic Reporter) who use it as a reference. So how does it fail?Patapsco913 (talk) 13:27, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

A source might be incredibly factually accurate, but that doesn't necessarily make it a reliable source for wikipedia. For instance, the WP articles about high-concept physics subjects tend to be extremely accurate and very detailed, but we can't use them as a source for other pages, because it's user generated content. It's a matter of verifiability, not truth. If that website provides its sources, however, you can probably use those. Don't just copy their citations though, check them out and verify them , first. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 13:48, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Patapsco913 (talk · contribs) has been busy making mass-postings to user talk pages to garner discussion on this thread. Patapsco, please limit your postings. Also, the text you have been using is not entirely neutral in tone. Elizium23 (talk) 23:42, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

There are somewhere between 3,500 and 4,000 wikipages that will be affected by this change - many that have been around for a long time - so I think it prudent that we should have as wide a discussion as possible. It should not be decided by five or six people.Patapsco913 (talk) 00:19, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I do not believe it is accurate to describe catholic-hierarchy.org as unreliable or user-generated content. It is the reporting of facts from other sources, organized in a convenient and hyperlinked manner. Furthermore, if you were to look at the Sources/Bibliography section of the website (), you would notice sources such as the Annuario Pontificio Collection from 1914, 1921, 1924, 1927-1928, 1931, 1933, 1937-1938, 1941, 1949, 1950-1953, and 1955-2015. The Annuario Pontificio is the ultimate source for pages such as this, and cannot be considered unreliable. Vlaams243 (talk) 23:54, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

So I can start a blogspot site and use the New York Times and Washington Post as sources, that doesn't make my blog a reliable source by Misplaced Pages's definition. I think that's important to note here that we're not talking about YOUR definition of "reliable" but WIKIPEDIA's definition. Elizium23 (talk) 00:02, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Catholic-Hierarchy would fit Misplaced Pages's definition based on Misplaced Pages's Scholarship, Self-published sources, and Usage by other sources policies. Vlaams243 (talk) 00:16, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with the reliability of the site, since it's just a bunch of lists anyway. It is simple and convenient, as Vlaams says. The same is true for GigaCatholic, which is often used as a source here (and which I actually find more useful than Catholic-Hierarchy). Is it literally unreliable? Are there mistakes in it? If it's accurately reporting the information from its own sources, what does it matter? We could use those sources instead, I suppose, but why? What is a reliable source in this case? Adam Bishop (talk) 02:05, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it makes chronic mistakes, as I explained above. It can't be trusted for the time a bishop takes possession of a diocese. Elizium23 (talk) 02:07, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Right, but is that a mistake introduced by Catholic-Hierarchy, or is the same information in its sources (whatever they may be?) Adam Bishop (talk) 02:15, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Even though this discussion is whether or not Catholic Hierarchy is reliable, I would like to report my activites for WikiProject Catholicism articles. Since I joined Misplaced Pages in April 2014, I have completed assessments on thousands of WikiProject Catholicism articles. Here's what I have been doing:

• If Catholic Hierarchy is in the References section, I add the Self-published source template.
• If the CH entry is in the External links section, the article is a Stub, I add the Self-published source template, hoping this may help another editor to find reliable sources elsewhere.
• If the CH entry is in the External links section, the article is not a Stub, I delete the CH External link line.

* Opinion: From the perspective of a Misplaced Pages reader, it's my opinion that leaving this Self-published source template in place serves as a cautionary alert that the reference is not held to the same higher standard of a Reliable source. What would be helpful is a BOT that tags articles for every CH Reference with the Self-published source template. Regards,  JoeHebda (talk)  02:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Thought - I have read, studied and used the Catholic hierarchy website for many years, and I have no doubt it is a reliable source. In fact, I know the information it contains is reliable because it all comes from the Catholic Statistical yearbook Annuario Pontificio published by the Roman Catholic Church itself. I own several copies of this yearbook for various years, and the data is accurate. The trouble comes from the fact that the Vatican sells the yearbook and as far as I know there is no open source for this data, or even an online, easily accessible version of it for data crunching or easy access. Thus a vacuum is formed and people use this website instead of the yearbook itself, which cost 60$ and is printed in Italian paperback only. I am too close to this to render a definitive opinion about the website, but for this to be a Reliable Source for Misplaced Pages, we must at the least have strict assurances that all the facts and data are straight from the yearbook the church itself publishes. Otherwise, we must rely on those who have copies of the yearbook for reliable sourcing. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 04:17, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I just wanted to acknowledge that I am the author/owner/whatever of the website in question and I would be happy to answer any questions in that regard. I have no opinion whether or not it should be cited in Misplaced Pages - that is for others to decide.--Dcheney (talk) 04:51, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I take the Catholic Hierarchy site to be a "reliable source" under our normal usage of that term. The description of its publishing process doesn't make me shift that opinion. It has been pointed out that it provides reference material, rather than "original research", and from an authoritative source. If, in effect, it is an online version of a print publication that we would accept, this discussion seems overblown. Charles Matthews (talk) 06:35, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• This is a reliable source. It has a reputation for accuracy and attention to detail. Some people seek to apply the term too narrowly. We need to use it broadly so that Misplaced Pages can reflect the understandings of a large swath of the population not just those of jet set yuppies living in lofts in NYC and avoiding flyover country and distaining the political goals of people in Uganda and Nigeria.

I can make some general observations about Catholic Hierarchy, as well as GCatholic. They both are reliable as long as they are based on reliable sources. Not all their sources are reliable. They are certainly very useful and highly reliable with regard to the recent appointments (I mean recent two centuries or so). They clearly base their data on official sources such as Annuario Pontificio. But deeper in the past, the things go worse. Miranda's website is a source for many data about cardinals in Catholic Hierarchy and GCatholic. Miranda's website, for 20th and 21 century is based mainly on the official reports of the Holy See, the best possible sources. For the centuries 13th to 19th it is based mainly on the nine volumes of Hierarchia Catholica by Eubel, Ritzler and Gauchat, which is generally a good source, but its earliest volumes (13th to 16th century) contain many errors. And for the period before 13th century, Miranda's website is completely unreliable (basing on outdated sources and contradicting modern prosopographies of the cardinals). Since Miranda is a source also for Catholic Hierarchy and GCatholic, the same can be told about them. In conclusion, all three websites are reliable for the most recent centuries, but with every earlier century, they became less and less reliable. CarlosPn (talk) 18:50, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Just wanted to agree with this - Giga Catholic seems to be better for older stuff, earlier than (say) the 17th century, but only as good as its sources, like Eubel, which is itself only as good as its sources (Gams, Lequien, whoever else). The Vatican doesn't actually keep lists of bishops of all its dioceses, so they don't really know anything more than we do, using the same sources. There are often academic works which will have more up-to-date lists for medieval bishops, and I suppose the same is true for other eras. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:15, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• This seems a far, far more reliable source on most of the articles that it references than anything else we have and discussions over the publishing process are interesting but beside the point. SPS is a sound guideline, but it shouldn't be dogma. I'd prefer that we'd refer to the sources underneath the site, but until then the site should be sufficient. JASpencer (talk) 07:20, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• One other note of clarification, although the Annuario Pontificio (AP) is a good resource, the lag in its publication means that it is not a good source for recent changes. For example, changes that occurred in 2015 will be included in AP 2016 - which will be published in the next month or two. Other official sources such as Acta Apostolicae Sedis can have an even longer lag time. --Dcheney (talk) 10:13, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

I've used it for years and found it more accurate than many other blue-chip sources. JoeHebda makes a good observation; it's reliable but it may be worthwhile to note that it's a self-published source. Majoreditor (talk) 13:18, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Reliable Source does not mean 100%, 100% of the time; it means well-researched and non-self-referential source. All sources for most bishops before 1300 are pretty uncertain; every modern iteration has to pick one. If he picked 2nd best, argue he isn't reliable for bishops before 1300 or something like that. For 1600 on, all he's done is collect various divergent sources such as the Annuario Pontificio into an accessible format. I'm not a good enough Church history expert to know sourcing for ancient bishops so I leave this aside. >> M.P.Schneider,LC (parlemus • feci) 14:45, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

There are several things to consider here. 1st, the number of references to it by experts of various types in the field seem to overcome the issue of WP:SPS. For a large part it isn't WP:SPS in the sense of WP:NOR as he is more of an editor/compiler of existing content than an originator. Tons of web content relies on a single editor and making all single-editor content fall under WP:SPS seems extreme. 2nd, it is, for most of it's content, a more accessible version of the source, the Annuario Pontificio which is a costly offline source. Even though, WP:SOURCEACCESS & WP:OFFLINE says offline sources are acceptable, I think the policy of WP:VERIFY would prefer an online version or reference were the content the same (for example, give me a link to a magazine article, not just the page number). Thus, I would argue to include at least the relatively modern content as reliable. I add 2 caveats: 1. someone mentioned issues with pre-1300 content here and I didn't study up on that enough. 2. If an error is found, I suggest posting on the talk page of that article to indicate that it is not reliable FOR THAT ARTICLE, and User_talk:Dcheney since he's indicated he's the editor and willing to fix issues. >> M.P.Schneider,LC (parlemus • feci) 15:05, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

I added a discussion on the WP:VERIFY talk page in relation to this. I suggest a variation to the expert exemption for WP:SPS so it includes pages extensively used as references by 3rd parties as I think the 1st post in this change demonstrates. Link: Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#.22Self-published.22_when_online_compilation_of_offline_sources. >> M.P.Schneider,LC (parlemus • feci) 15:22, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

ExxonMobil climate research publication count

Article: ExxonMobil climate change controversy

Summarization 1

Content 1

ExxonMobil researchers have published dozens of academic papers on the effects of fossil fuel emissions and the associated risks to society; ExxonMobil claims more than 50 peer reviewed papers on climate research and policy between 1980 and 2015.

Sources 1

• Banerjee, Neela; Song, Lisa; Hasemyer, David (September 17, 2015). "Exxon Believed Deep Dive Into Climate Research Would Protect Its Business". InsideClimate News. Retrieved January 25, 2016. In an email, Exxon spokesman Richard D. Keil said he would no longer respond to inquiries from InsideClimate News, and added, "ExxonMobil scientists have been involved in climate research and related policy analysis for more than 30 years, yielding more than 50 papers in peer-reviewed publications."
• Gillis, Justin; Schwartz, John (October 30, 2015). "Exxon Mobil Accused of Misleading Public on Climate Change Risks". The New York Times. Retrieved January 22, 2016. Company scientists have contributed to dozens of scientific papers that supported this view and explored the extent of the risks.

Summarization 2

Content 2

Between 1980 and 2015, Exxon and ExxonMobil researchers and academic collaborators published more than 50 peer reviewed papers on climate research and climate policy.

Sources 2

• Banerjee, Neela; Song, Lisa; Hasemyer, David (September 17, 2015). "Exxon Believed Deep Dive Into Climate Research Would Protect Its Business". InsideClimate News. Retrieved January 25, 2016. In an email, Exxon spokesman Richard D. Keil said he would no longer respond to inquiries from InsideClimate News, and added, "ExxonMobil scientists have been involved in climate research and related policy analysis for more than 30 years, yielding more than 50 papers in peer-reviewed publications." (emphasis added)
• Cohen, Ken. "When it Come to Climate Change, Read the Documents". ExxonMobil Perspectives. ExxonMobil. Retrieved Jan 31, 2016.

Related diff

Attempted resolution at article talk: Talk:ExxonMobil_climate_change_controversy#February_2016_OVERCITE_issues

Additional related primary source:

• Kheshgi, Haroon (October 13, 2015). "Exxon Mobil Contributed Peer Reviewed Publications" (PDF). ExxonMobil. Retrieved January 30, 2016. {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help) (Exxon compiled bibliography)

Discussion

Comment: When sources conflict or may appear to conflict, include the conflict. Secondary sources are preferred to primary. Independent sources are preferred to self-published sources. Respectfully request feedback on alternative sourcing and summarizations. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 18:46, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Is this an RS issue or a neutral point of view issue? Try this at WP:NPOVN. Regarding reliability, those fifty academic papers are considered primary sources, so we defer to the secondary source assessment of them, especially given the conflict of interest. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:57, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. I believe consensus at article talk supports the due weight of some kind of characterization of the magnitude of ExxonMobils' publication count, thanks. I believe this is at least in part a sourcing issue. The second alternative is sourced to ExxonMobil, directly to ExxonMobil's public relations website and indirectly through an e-mail from ExxonMobil excerpted in a secondary source. The first alternative includes The New York Times. The issue is not the content of the pubs as much as which sources are best for characterizing the count in Misplaced Pages. Comments please? Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 19:15, 3 February 2016 (UTC) The first alternative provides in-text attribution for possible bias for the portion of the claim sourced to ExxonMobil, while the second alternative states ExxonMobil's claim in Misplaced Pages voice. Request comments on the alternatives, but also advice on the appropriate venue for broadening community discussion of this issue. Apologies if this is not the best venue. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 21:58, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't know why this discussion is here. No one on the article talk page raised a RS concern with regards to any of the sources in question as used. I'm not sure what HughD means by "consensus at the article talk supports the due weight...". All the sources seem reliable for what they are being used for. Springee (talk) 20:03, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• HughD, please notify the article talk page of this discussion.

So far, two editors support deference to secondary sources over sources with a conflict of interest. Any other comments? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:58, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Exxon publications are in part primary, and in part WP:SELFPUB. They may be used as a noncontroversial record of Exxon's own positions and public statements, but are worthless for other purposes. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 18:37, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

@Sfarney: Thank you for your comment. May I request a finer point on it, to clarify: The New York Times credits Exxon with "dozens" of publications; Exxon claims 50; what should Misplaced Pages say? Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 13:50, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Note: the comments I've added below are relevant to this discussion. Springee (talk) 17:24, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

I think everyone agrees that Exxon's list of publications can only be used as record of Exxon's statements/claims. What is unclear is how this RSN question is supposed to relate to the actual article in question or discussion on the article talk page which did not raise the question proposed here. Additionally, the participants in the related article page discussion were not notified of this RSN posting. I did post a general notice to the talk page (which should have been done by the editor who opened this question) but none of the involved editors have been contacted. Anyway, until the questions here are related to the talk page discussion I'm not sure how one can be used to drive the other. Springee (talk) 20:54, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Exxon's assessment of their own contribution to a publication (4 Exxon of 5 co-authors; 1 of 6, a summer intern; no Exxon co-author, but using Exxon data, etc.) is subject to judgement. The classification of a journal as "peer reviewed" has no precise definition. With these opportunities for bias, a reliable secondary source must be used rather than primary or self-published sources for a statement of the publication count in Misplaced Pages voice. Hugh (talk) 13:59, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Err on th side of accuracy. Both statements can be summed so economically, why not include both statements as you have here? Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 14:51, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. Of course! Perfectly reasonable. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 23:16, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Allow me to offer more background here since we haven't presented the full scope what the concerns were on the talk page. First, assuming reliable sourcing, there seems no reason to change the original article text of "more than 50" to the less precise "dozens". To support the original "more than 50 the article used two sources; InsideClimate New, and Exxon themselves. Both sources agree on a published list (linked from ICN article ]) of over 50 publications. Thus no controversy with regards to the reliability of the 50+ claim. HughD would like to add a third citation, the NYT article mentioned above. The problem is the NYT article doesn't actually say 50+, it only says "dozens" and unlike the ICN and Exxon sources it does not contain a list of publications. So the NYT article, while not disputing, doesn't actually support the "more than 50" statement in the WP article per WP:VERIFY. So why change to a less precise statement after the fact just to include 3rd reference for a non-contested article fact?

I would add that while Exxon would normally be considered a self published source, the Exxon claim agrees with an adversarial news source. More importantly, because we have a list of actual article names we don't need to trust Exxon's claim. We can verify them independently. Hence no one has to take Exxon at their word. As an example, if Dr John Doe says he published at least 25 papers we would treat that as a self published claim, not a proven fact. However, if Dr Doe provided a list of 25 papers and then we can verify those papers were in fact published. At that point support of the the claim is independent of Dr Doe since we can verify the claim ourselves.

Anyway, so what we have is an original article text saying "more than 50" and HughD's preferred version saying "dozens". I think all involved would say, given reliable sourcing, the original, more precise statement should be retained. The original sourcing was more than sufficient to support the claim of "more than 50". There is no reason to change the article to the less precise "dozens" simply to include a NYT reference.

Finally, since this discussion isn't about the reliability of the source but instead relates to the article, this discussion really should be conducted on the article talk page where other editors can be involved. Springee (talk) 17:24, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

"we have a list of actual article names" As clearly explained above the list is from ExxonMobil, self-published, primary, strong possibility of bias, unreliable; please see comments from your colleagues above. Hugh (talk) 20:18, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

"To support the original "more than 50 the article used two sources; InsideClimate New, and Exxon themselves" As clearly explained above, InsideClimate News direct quotes an e-mail from ExxonMobil with in-text attribution; the 50 number is not in ICN voice. Hugh (talk)

"adversarial news source" InsideClimate News is not an adversary of ExxonMobil. Hugh (talk) 20:18, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

1. Your list if reasons to think Exxon's list is fake is not convincing. ICN, a source you used heavily in the article considers it genuine. Also, the NYT is using ICN as a primary source. If the list is fake how do we know the NYT's claim of "dozens" isn't based on the same list? If the list is false then it would undermine the credibility of ICN as a source for any of the article.
2. If the ICN source wasn't reliable then why did you add it when you added the original "more than 50" to the article?]. Note that ICN doesn't challenge the claim. I would also add it appears you later added this list. Why back track now? Why add the list of article five days later if you felt it wasn't a reliable source or Exxon might be lying? ]
3. ICN is adversarial with respect to Exxon. That doesn't mean dishonest but it does mean their intent is to expose wrong doing by the company. Why would they let a claim of 50 slide if they felt it was wrong or dishonest? Why would they republish the list if their intent wasn't to show that, yet Exxon really did do this research?

Again, why is this a RS discussion vs an article talk space discussion? Springee (talk) 21:18, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Exxon's own list of publications may or may not be be fake but it is certainly not a reliable source for stating the publication count in Misplaced Pages voice; in any case an iconic-ally reliable secondary source The New York Times with a characterization of the publication count is available to our project; forgive me for repeating myself. We are here at the reliable sources noticeboard seeking patient voices from uninvolved colleagues regarding some fundamental issues of sourcing on Misplaced Pages. Hugh (talk) 22:10, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Thus far three editors have expressed a preference for the first alternative summarization above, based on our project's preference for secondary over primary sources, and independent over self-published, and one expressed preference for the second alternative. Any other new voices? Thank you! Hugh (talk) 08:20, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

• Comment @Springee: I think it would be wise to attribute the statement to Exxon for a few reasons. First, the document you linked from ICN (don't know how reliable this source is) appears to be produced by Exxon / Haroon S. Kheshgi and when I open it in my browser it is titled "Haroon's CV." Second, half of the "publications" listed are not peer-reviewed scientific publications, but other documents of some kind. Third, this is a sensitive topic, and Exxon, a carbon energy giant, should be expected to have a complicated relationship with climate research. Attributing the statement is the safe, easy, and noncontroversial thing to do. I'm not sure why you would resist this so strongly. I'm also not sure why you would repeatedly declare that discussion should not be occurring on this board, since the reliability of the sources and their claim is at issue. -Darouet (talk) 00:13, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

P.S. Congrats to @Springee and HughD: the article ExxonMobil climate change controversy that you and others have been editing is fascinating to read. -Darouet (talk) 18:24, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Women Write About Comics: Reliable for editorial opinions/reviews of comics, et al?

Hi. Is this source reliable as a source for this addition to the Saga (comic book) article? One of the reasons why I ask is that when I look at the site's staff page, it's 14 pages long, with 10 writers on each page. Also, when clicking on the "About" link at the top of the site's pages, one of the sublinks is "Pitch to Us".

I've also noticed, when doing a search here on WP, that that site is cited as a source in five other articles. The five passages in those articles in which it is cited are as follows. Each link directs to the passage in the Misplaced Pages article in question, and the type of info for which it is cited is presented as the text of the external link:

1. Used to relate a personal incident of stalking, first citesecond cite
2. Critic's opinion that a character is transphobic
3. Critic's editorial reaction to a comic
4. Factual information about a comic book's content
5. Existence of a comic book

So is it reliable? Nightscream (talk) 14:45, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

This one's tricky, could go either way. I ran a search for "of Women Write about Comics" to see if any other materials cite them as an expert source. We just had a discussion about Dear Author, and my own take is that if an independently published source cites a web site as an example of something, that's not an expert endorsement, but if they rely on the site's opinion or conclusions, then it is. I'd also say that something doesn't have to be RS for the endorsement to count. If bloggers consider someone an expert, they might well be an expert.

Uncanny Magazine article "Representation Matters: Embracing Change in Comics" by Caitlin Rosberg: "As Megan Byrd of Women Write About Comics points out, people are voting with their dollars in complicated ways, demanding to see the kinds of stories they want..." Endorsement.

The Mary Sue article about playlists by Tom Speelman: "...the best comics-affiliated playlist is the soundtrack to IDW’s Transformers: More Than Meets the Eye. It adds an extra dimension to what’s already the best sci-fi comic you’re not reading (as decreed by Lindsay Ellis, Hannibal Tabu, Rachel Stevens of Women Write About Comics and, um, me)." Endorsement on lightweight topic

A person in a Latinas in Comics panel mentions being interviewed by Women Write About Comics. Endorsement from personal site.

Women Write about Comics Christa Seely interviewed by Ten Tweets Endorsement from non-RS

Toweleroad "Batgirl Creative Team Apologizes for Transphobic Villain" by Charles Pulliam Moore: "Many fans of the series interpreted Dagger Type’s outing as being transphobic ... 'Murderous or deceptive men disguising themselves as women has been a trope in fiction long before the creation of cinema, and it’s shown up too many times to list or even count,’ wrote Rachel Stevens of Women Write About Comics. 'The trope isn’t even subverted here, which is the hell of it.'" I'd call this an example.

I'd say that that particular article in WWaC is sufficient for the relatively lightweight claim that the series contains sexual, racial and aesthetic diversity. If you want to play it safe, change "is distinguished by" to "contains." I also feel pretty confident about the observation that it breaks stereotypes. I've read some of the staff bios and writer Nadya Bauman lists some relevant certifications but not a lot of publications on her LinkedIn page, so I don't know if we'd rely on her for complex literary analysis. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:28, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't know if "contains" would make the passage relevant for inclusion in the Saga article's Lead, so I changed it to "lauded for". Do you think that's acceptable? Nightscream (talk) 19:56, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

It sounds like it would do better in critical reception. I feel pretty good about "lauded for" but when I stop and think about it, "contains" is probably best. "Lauded for" suggests that more than one set of critics took notice. I wouldn't contest either one personally, though. There's wiggle room. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:53, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

If we merely note that it "contains" or depicts such things, I don't think it would merit inclusion in the article's Lede, where it is currently located, so I changed it to "It has also been noted for...." Nightscream (talk) 06:01, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Miss World as a source for specific biographical information for Miss World contestants

Source: .   For information about the publisher, identifies the publisher as "Miss World Limited (registered in Jersey under Company no. 17598) ('MWL')".

Article (deleted): Tamar Nemsitsveridze

Content supported by the source:

1. Born:

   1986 or 1987

2. Age, which varies over the years, and assumes that the person is alive:

   1986 or 1987 (age 37–38)

3. Birthplace:

   Kutarsi

4. The sentence:

   She studied at the American University for Humanities.

RSN request submitted by Unscintillating (talk) 14:47, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Per WP:ABOUTSELF the Miss World site is reliable for information about the Miss World pageant. Please provide a link to the Misplaced Pages page upon which this site is being used or proposed for use as a source. Because the information is about a living person, it must be subject to extra scrutiny. WP:BLP Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:28, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

(1) I have reviewed the issue of being self-published at WP:IRS, and I am unable to verify that Miss World falls into the category of a self-published source, anymore than nbcnews.com would be considered self-published.  A Google search on shows an active legal presence.  (2) As for the link to the article, I have provided this.  For non-admins, mirrors exist.  (3) I've reviewed WP:BLP.  Unscintillating (talk) 19:03, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I've thought about it, and while I'd consider the Miss World website reliable for things like Ms. Nemsitsveridze's age and the other information given here, what was bothering me is that I'm still not convinced that she meets WP:NOTABILITY. That, however, is a separate issue. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:49, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

JewsNews.com

Is this considered a reliable source of news? Its seems pretty horrifically biased to me. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:07, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Hey there Jack. Per WP:BIASED, it is okay to use biased sources in some cases. What's it being used for? Some parts of Misplaced Pages, like the Israeli-Palestine conflict, are under discretionary sanctions and benefit from extra scrutiny. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:30, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

I went to check out this specific site and there doesn't seem to be one. Do you mean realjewnews.com or jewsnews.newsvine.com? EDIT: Holy crud; realjewnews looks WP:FRINGE on its face. The Newsvine site looks WP:USERG, so it depends on the specific author, the specific credentials and the specific context. I can't tell more without seeing the exact page in question. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:31, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/? Okay, yes I see what you're talking about. Their About Us page does not list any staff credentials. The author of the first article up is not named. It just says "admin" and the staff bio is blank. On the surface, I'd say Jewsnews.co.il is not reliable. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:07, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Jewsnews.com is not a reliable source. The outlet started out as a facebook page and developed into a website with no fact checking or editorial board. Meatsgains (talk) 20:16, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

No way is that site reliable. Sir Joseph 19:40, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

List of ministers of the Universal Life Church

uses sources directly linked to the ULC and published by the ULC.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/12/fashion/weddings/12FIELD.html?_r=0 specifically states the famous people are claimed by the ULC, not they are ministers as a statement of fact

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/12/fashion/weddings/12FIELD.html?_r=0 has Glenn Beck making an apparent joke about the ULC - as he is a LDS member, I think this must be interpreted in a manner other than as seriously being connected to the ULC

"The Modesto messiah: The famous mail-order minister" published by the ULC is used as a source for famous persons being members and ministers. In the case at hand, is this SPS a reliable source for claims about membership and ordinations?

http://www.presstelegram.com/20131009/how-we-totally-screwed-up-a-marriage-with-a-wee-error mentions the ULC claims - then notes the ministership was not valid for the writer (anecdote)

http://thedevilanddanvojir.blogspot.ca/2009_07_02_archive.html is a blog - which also attributes the "famous names" to the ... ULC

And on and on and on. (like "bustle.com" etc.)

Labeling any person as having a specific "religion" is problematic in itself, but using any SPS to label a person as an "ordained minister" of that religion should be at least as problematic. The question is -- are there any actual "reliable sources" in that entire "list" that the famous people are or were "ordained ministers" in that church? Many thanks. Collect (talk) 19:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Can you list the articles or (preferably) add the difs showing where these sources were used? Is it BLP infoboxes? Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:09, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

The sources above are used as cites in the list. The list article includes over eighty persons - including Madalyn Murray O'Hair, Doris Day, James Stewart, Ringo Starr, and Mae West. All of whom are only mentioned in ... sources published by the ULC, and where there are zero outside references (there are about five who "performed marriages" but it is likely that the "ordination" had no effect on the paperwork at all). In many cases, the person self-identified with a church other than the ULC, so it is possible that the ULC manufactured some of the "ordinations" and possible that pranksters obtained "ordinations" in the names of famous persons. The ULC did not require any actual identification in order to for a person to be "ordained." Any editor could get "Jimbo Wales" placed onto the list for a few dollars <g>. And yes - there were a few living persons on the "list". Thanks. Collect (talk) 19:38, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

The second two look like blogs on the surface, and the Press Telegram site just mentions the matter in passing. That would usually be enough for me, but if the accuracy of the content is in dispute, I'd say something more solid is needed. As for the NY Times articles, they're reliable, but it sounds like you're saying that they don't flat-out say "so-and-so is a ULC minister"; they say something a little to the side like "ULC says that so-and-so is a minister." That's not an RS issue. It's a "how much editorializing is appropriate?" issue. My take on that is, when in doubt, just quote the source directly and let the readers make their own interpretation. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:28, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Where the source is self-published by the ULC, and no one states that they got the information about any famous people other than from that organization, and the categorization of anyone by religion is required to be strongly sourced, the sourced used are not "reliable sources" for the purposes to which they are being used. And since this is a "list" article, there is no text in the list wherein to make clear that the source is the organization itself <g>. Collect (talk) 18:33, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

EDIT: The Press Telegram source is an editorial, not a blog, so it's covered by WP:PRIMARY. I'd say that since the matter is in doubt and requires high standards, the information should be supported by something more direct. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:38, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Should be taken to WP:AFD on WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE grounds. There are millions of ULC ministers; I am one myself, and I know dozens of others. There is no barrier to entry, of any kind whatsoever. You simply ask to be ordained and you get ordained. So, this is exactly the same as having an article called "People with blue pants" or "Fans of Star Trek", or "Individuals who don't like curry".  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  15:13, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

"electronic harassment" term coined by Roger Tolces but he is not a RS?

I am attempting to contribute to the controversial Electronic Harassment article and battling with the troubling fact that the person who coined the phrase has not been reported in mainstream media or anywhere else that I can find that would be regarded as a RS. However, there are many mainstream articles that use the term and as far as I can see they are accepting his definition of the term. The term has gone up there, but not the coiner of the term. He has popularized that term in radio interviews many on Coast to Coast AM, which I expect would not be regarded as a RS as they talk about conspiracy theories. He has been a guest 67 times since 2003. He has a website in which he has clearly defined the term in ways that do not involve a conspiracy theory. He only talks about "harassers" but does not speculate or theorize about who. It has however not been RS reviewed anywhere that I can find. His intro at Coast to Coast AM: "Biography: Roger Tolces is a Los Angeles private investigator who specializes in electronic countermeasures. In the past thirty years he has swept over 2500 locations for bugs and wiretaps. In recent years his business has included helping victims of electronic harassment and mind control. Electronic harassment takes place if someone uses any electronic device to aid them in invading your person or property for the purpose of gathering information illegally, or for the purpose of causing physical harm. Mr. Tolces uses over $100,000 of high-tech equipment to try to identify the sources of electronic harassment. Website:bugsweeps.com ." So, is there some way that I can put his definition of the term into the "electronic harassment" article? It seems the article gets a bit lost without the original definition of the term.Jed Stuart (talk) 05:01, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Probably not. Sorry. Collect (talk) 18:34, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

The term is found in print before 1981. NYT first used the term in 1994, and not in any sense related to Mr. Tolces. Collect (talk) 18:42, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Where in print is the term found before 1981, thanks?Jed Stuart (talk) 00:00, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Try this from 1984: "The potential for hostile intrusion is not merely governmental. High-tech vigilante groups or apolitical hackers may also avail themselves of opportunities for electronic harassment." (This text was manually transcribed. Please review carefully.) For future questions of this type, you can use Google books and sort on date. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 00:53, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

There is also a 1981 book (fiction novel?) that may be more on the lines of QuWave issues.

References

1. Lawrence, John Shelton (1984-11-01). The electronic scholar: a guide to academic microcomputing. Ablex Pub. Corp. p. 159. ISBN 9780893912987.

Donetsk People's Republic article

Guys, we have problem here, can you help a little bit? Some ukranian according to profile (seems not objective) moderator doesn't want to fix a mistake (propaganda) in article. DPR Poll Support discussion.

E-mail as a source?

I need some advice - I'm working with an editor on the article for Draft:Our London Lives (2016 film). The article is a little light on sources. Most of the sources either didn't mention the film (were just used to verify data in the article) or they were routine notifications of events, primary sources, or were problematic in one way or another.

The strongest thing that the film has going for it was that it was displayed at the Museum of London, which is quite an achievement. It's supposed to be part of their permanent collections, but at this point in time the only thing that can be verified was that it was displayed. If it is part of their permanent collections then this by itself would likely be enough to assert notability under criteria 4 of WP:NFILM "The film was selected for preservation in a national archive." The museum isn't an archive, but it could argued to be its equivalent.

The film is still on display and hasn't been cataloged at this point in time from what I can see from the MoL's website, so here's my question: what can we do to verify that it's part of their collection? If the MoL was willing to send an email to WP:OTRS verifying that it was part of the permanent collections, would that suffice? Or could the museum just e-mail an admin and verify it that way? Or would a tweet suffice, as long as it came from an official account? The main thing I'm worried about is others being able to verify the source, as an OTRS ticket or tweet would be something that would be a bit more firm than if I were to get an e-mail from the MoL.

Pinging @Amanda Paul: since it's her draft article. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:45, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• It's just tricky since this is very close to passing but without a more firm way to establish notability I'm not sure that this could do more than just serve as a subsection in the main article for Atherton. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:46, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Wouldn't a tweet pass WP:SPS? I'd say no to the email, but a tweet should still count as "published" and would be readily accessible to anyone who wanted to verify the information. People have cited tweets before (not me, since I mostly write about early 20th century cinema, but others). — Chris Woodrich (talk) 10:58, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
    • Per WP:TWITTER tweets from official sources are acceptable (so long as they are not used for info on a living person, which doesn't seem to be the case here). Emails usually are not suitable sources for articles, but they can be useful on talk pages. For example, I once messaged an author to confirm that he had personally written the material in question rather than using an intern. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:18, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
      • Thanks @Tokyogirl79:. The film is on display in a gallery which is only for recently acquired items into the collection or ones already there called Show Space

        

The museum have tweeted about its inclusion here https://twitter.com/MuseumofLondon/status/695257396134989824?lang=en Amanda Paul (talk) 14:24, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Australian Dictionary of Biography

Seems at first sight to be a tertiary source for information and its website states clearly:

No reliance should be made by a user of the material, information or publication accessed via this site.

It is being used quite extensively at the Harold Holt biography as a "catch-all" reference. I rather think that actual secondary sources should be used rather than using a single tertiary source for much of any article.

Opinions please? Should the biography seek actual secondary sources rather than rely so extensively on the ADB as the main source for details? Collect (talk) 13:31, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

That looks like boilerplate legalese. The ADB is a project of Australian National University and appears to be structured like a traditional academic encyclopedia: "The Australian Dictionary of Biography is a national, co-operative enterprise, founded and maintained by the ANU. The project is headed by the General Editor, based at the ANU, and an Editorial Board, which discusses matters of general policy. ADB Working Parties draw up lists of individuals selected for inclusion in the ADB and give advice on appropriate authors. The General Editor then commissions the entries. Section editors, drawn from each of the Working Parties, and Editorial Fellows, who are eminent academic historians, read and review all entries." Seems like a perfectly appropriate RS to use. Of course, whenever possible we should try to avoid relying on a single source, even a high quality source. Gamaliel (talk) 14:03, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

It still appears to be a non-secondary source alas. The extensive use looks more like editors not actually looking for secondary sources when there is a catch-all available. More like the EB which is also "reviewed" and is also a tertiary source, and which is deprecated for use as a current RS on Misplaced Pages, no? Collect (talk) 14:19, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

No, imho you read too much in that policy formulation. Nor we do we have any mandate of how extensive a subject needs to be researched by editor as long as the information they add is reliable and sourced. You are of course free to overhaul such an article and replace or augment the reliable tertiary sources by reliable secondary sources (of somewhat equal reputation/quality).--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:31, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here with an overemphasis of the formal difference between secondary and tertiary sources. There is usually no issue with using high quality tertiary sources (like reputable special subject encyclopedias) and even more so a high quality/highly reputable tertiary source is usually a better choice than a low quality secondary source.

Keeping that in mind it is usually unproblematic to use various national biographies as sources as long as they have a good reputation in general. That is at least the default assumption, unless a specific national biography is known be unreliable/has a bad reputation or a specific article is contradicted by reputable secondary sources.--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:26, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

It is tertiary, so it can be used, presumptively, for some things, just not anything described at WP:AEIS policy, and not to established WP:Notability; both of those require secondary sources. I say "presumptively", because the publisher being good-seeming doesn't tell us what the editorial process is, and we should look into that, to ensure they a) do not take paid submissions the way all the "who's who" publications do, and b) do some research, and don't simply take subject-submitted information at face value.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  15:17, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't quite follow that, if anything a reputable tertiary source suggests dealing with some subject suggests more than just a reputable secondary source secondary source dealing with that subject. So in terms of notability tertiary sources are in doubt a better indicator. As far as WP:AEIS is concerned, that hasn't really anything to do with tertiary, secondary or even primary sources, but it about how you combine sources and what you shouldn't do in that case. That applies however whether the source is tertiary or secondary (or even primary).

Other than you seem to be arguing more reputable versus less reputable and high quality versus low quality (like no paid submission). That assessment is very important, but it holds for tertiary and secondary sources alike.--Kmhkmh (talk) 23:21, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

bodybuilding.com

According to link search bodybuilding.com is linked to 350 times. Is it a reliable source? Are we being spammed by "an American online retailer based in Boise, Idaho, specializing in dietary supplements, sports supplements, and bodybuilding supplements"? --Guy Macon (talk) 15:29, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

At least some of these are nonproblematic. For example, it's linked in Jamie Eason because Eason is one of their spokespeople. Things are less clear on Val Puccio, however. Also, this page is used to support the assertion that Dana Brooke is a fitness competitor. The page is about someone else and does not mention Brooke.

Regardless of whether this site is reliable overall, it has been used improperly in at least these two cases. However, it's also been used for some very lightweight claims, like the fact that Candace Keene won a specific competition, though there's probably a better source available. I'd case-by-case this one. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:46, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Agree with Darkfrog24, this would have to be taken case-by-case. IMO, generally it can be used as a reliable source for uncontroversial information. Not to sound like an ambassador for the company, but Bodybuilding.com does have experts writing informative articles and a team of editors. Meatsgains (talk) 03:02, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Banglapedia, Encyclopedia Brittanica and YouTube

My question is a general question regarding three different mediums of sources. As the section heading implies, how is the use of Banglapedia, Encyclopedia Brittanica and YouTube videos as WP:RS? Banglapedia seams like an exact replica of Misplaced Pages pages, although they claim that they have paid scholars working for them but no one knows the whereabouts of those scholars or their notability. Whenever a piece of content on a Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Bangladesh is lacking sources and a push comes for the sources, they shove Banglapedia in, because you are sure to find that content in there since its almost the exact replica. Same question for Encyclopedia Brittanica. As for videos, how is it to use videos as a source in general and also specifically from YouTube and what if it's a video from a major news channel. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:39, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

That would be covered by WP:CIRCULAR. If you know that they're citing Misplaced Pages, it's cut and dried. If you merely suspect it, that's another matter. I checked one random article in Banglapedia, Fairy Tales, and they list their bibliography. It looks legit to me. Can you name a particular case in which you believe the information is suspect?

Britannica is covered by WP:TERTIARY. It is RS.

Youtube videos can be reliable sources because they have been published on YouTube, though WP:SPS applies. Basically, if it's an expert speaking, it's reliable. If it's just some random person with a video blog, then it's not. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:51, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• If it's a YT video from a known expert, it might be usable, under the rules for primary sources, if it's material that is within the realm of their expertise. If it's controversial (e.g. polemic in nature) it can probably not be used (per WP:UNDUE), except as a self-source (per WP:ABOUTSELF) for what a notable speaker's position on something is (with a strong relevance connection between the speaker and the topic of our article), but not for any alleged facts they're presenting. UNDUE might be satisfied if the view was presented as a directly attributed opinion and counterbalanced by other sources. Such a source cannot be used at all for WP:AEIS claims, nor to help establish notability (both of which require secondary sources). Basically, it is no different from a self-published blog; it lacks much reliability (is a low-quality source), because it does not have a reputable publisher, per WP:RS (YouTube is not the publisher for RS purposes, since they exercise no editorial control over content, other then removing flagged porn, etc.; they are simply the medium, the carrier, as Google Books is for what they've scanned). The above (including the OP) is confusing the medium with the message. Not only does which site the expert is using to self-publish not matter, the fact that Banglapedia is using MediaWiki is also irrelevant, just as many reliable online news sources are published with WordPress and various other platforms that were developed for individual blogging. What matters is the real-world reputability of the publisher, the reputability of the writer, the editorial control exercised over the latter by the former, the nature of the material in question (original thought, or AEIS of previously published work?), and the relevance of the material and the author's and their sources' expertise/reputability to the context (i.e. a physics publication is not a reliable source for anthropology material, and a literary criticism source isn't one for sports news, or vice versa).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  15:33, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

"Pegida...is a far right wing neo-nazi movement"

1. Sources: Times of Israel, Guardian 1, DW, Guardian 2, Maz, RTE.

2. Article: Pegida.

3. Content: Lead sentence of the Pegida article.

Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamisation of the West (Template:Lang-de), abbreviated PEGIDA or Pegida, is a far right wing neo-nazi movement...

My take on it: except for the Maz article, none of the sources refer to Pegida as "neo-nazi". While many of them discuss neo-nazis at Pegida events (which obviously should be covered in the Misplaced Pages article), none of them refer to Pegida itself as neo-nazi.

1. Times of Israel: "the Islamophobic Pegida movement"..."Anti-Islamic group Pegida"
2. Guardian 1: "Far-right group Pegida"..."a nascent anti-foreigner campaign group"
3. DW: "the anti-Islamization PEGIDA movement"..."the anti-Islamic PEGIDA movement"
4. Guardian 2: "far-right Pegida group"..."a far-right group based in Germany"
5. RTE: "Anti-Islamisation group Pegida"...

The Maz article is an interview with an activist for an anti-right wing group, and really isn't suitable at all for stating these things in Misplaced Pages's voice.

I would also argue that the sources don't even support the "far right" label - of these sources, only The Guardian appears to use this label. Faceless Enemy (talk) 01:58, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Guardian and ToI are generally reliable. I think this might really be an original research or NPOV issue.

Guardian 1 quotes other parties that refer to these people as Nazis: Pegida supporters, seen here in Dresden, include neo-Nazi elements as well as ordinary Germans with concerns about immigration. Photograph: Jens Meyer/AP and Its members have been dubbed the “pinstriped Nazis” and Pegida’s growing presence has presented politicians with a dilemma over how to uncouple the strong neo-Nazi element Corroboration:

Guardian 2: Étienne Desplanques, from the Calais public prosecutor’s office, justified the arrests saying the demonstrators were “ultra right, of a neo-Nazi type”.

Times of Israel actually says they're neo-Nazis in the title of that article. It also quotes Desplanques: “Some groups began to circulate in the city center, mainly far-right, neo-Nazi types,” regional official Etienne Desplanques told AFP.

If your question here was whether the content has to be excluded on verifiability grounds the answer is that it doesn't. The claim is reasonably solid with these three sources alone, though if you want to tighten it up the lede so it says they are "right-wing organization allied with the neo-Nazi movement" or "right-wing organization that has been characterized as a neo-Nazi movement," that would probably be fine. If you want me to look into DQ and Mez for reliability I guess I can, but if your question was "Was the editor who added this reading too much into things?" or "Is this biased?" you might find a more direct answer at WP:ORN or WP:NPOVN. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:30, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

But neither the Guardian nor the Times of Israel refer to Pegida as neo-nazis in the voice of their respective papers. Faceless Enemy (talk) 02:39, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Good question. Wrong noticeboard. You need to go here: WP:ORN Your question is not about whether the sources are reliable but about whether they are being interpreted properly.

For my part, I'd say that "Pegida’s growing presence has presented politicians with a dilemma over how to uncouple the strong neo-Nazi element" (G) and "Neo-Nazi anti-Islam protesters arrested at Calais rally" (ToI) support the claim to the point where, if I didn't want it in the article, I'd either show a source actively stating that they are not Nazis or show enough other sources to prove that the majority of articles that mention Pegida do not call them Nazis. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:51, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

You're right, thank you - I'll take it to ORN. However, what about the "Maz" activist interview? That one does explicitly say "Pegida is a neo-Nazi event". Or is that a NPOVN (undue weight) question? Faceless Enemy (talk) 03:12, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't speak German, but Maz, or Märkische Allgemeine, looks like a garden-variety newspaper, so it is sage to assume that it is reliable. Per WP:NONENG being in German does not disqualify it for use in the English Misplaced Pages. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:04, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not doubting that this activist said these things, I just think she's an extremely biased source with not nearly enough authority on the subject to take her at her word. Or is that yet another thing that doesn't belong at RSN? Faceless Enemy (talk) 14:16, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

I can't tell what she's saying myself, but this is covered under WP:BIASED. It is sometimes okay to use biased sources. If the activist is relevant enough, it might be appropriate to say, "So-and-so has described Pegida as a neo-Nazi movement," but probably not in the lede. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:04, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

News media are a poor source for determining the political orientation of groups. Their main value is that they tell us what happened this morning. It is inadvisable to use their descriptions unless better sources are not available. Having said that, the sources do not say they are neo-nazi, just that they tolerate open neo-nazis. But they are clearly part of the "far right," the political family that includes the BNP, EDL, English Democrats, National Front, neo-nazis and other groups. It is characteristic of the British far right that groups are constantly being formed and dissolved and try to re-invent themselves as moderate. The EDL denounced the BNP, the BNP denounced the National Front. But they are the same people and articles should reflect that. Islamophobic is accurate too but it goes far into the mainstream. Donald Trump for example expresses views that could be seen as Islamophobic. TFD (talk) 03:00, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

The description of the AFD as (far) right-wing as in right of the center right fairly common in the German press and a common assessment by scholars in sociology and politics (in interviews). I understand the skepticism towards quick superficial labeling in the press. Maybe a better a approach is having the lead without any such label and moving that information in separate section dealing with the political placement of the movement, where the assessments of reputable news publications can be given but possible augmented by German publications of which there are plenty and more important scholarly sources (which do exist in German at least). Note that the German article uses currently "right wing populist" ("Rechtpopulismus") as label and it has a section with scholarly assessments, that could be utilized for the English article.--Kmhkmh (talk) 05:22, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Sources appear to support "right-wing anti-Islamization group" but the "neo-Nazi" epithet appears to be in the nature of "editorial opinion" rather than a statement of fact. The pejorative term is "contentious" thus the fact one source states it as an opinion is insufficient for Misplaced Pages to state it as a fact. Collect (talk) 14:10, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

They should still be included in some form per WP:BIASED and WP:NOTCENSORED. ParkH.Davis (talk) 21:42, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

The more I think about this, the more I come to feel that the article should have a sub-section specifically discussing allegations of Naziism where all these statements can be attributed rather than addressing the matter in the lede. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:04, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

This makes sense, especially as it is clear that at least some, including law enforcement officials, believe that Pegida has at least some element which is neo-Nazi. Also, the sources (which have now been removed) which were added by an IP user, use "far right" and not "right wing populist". ParkH.Davis (talk) 21:42, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

And "far right wing" is both redundant and ungrammatical. It's "far-right" (which is PoV, unless multiple RS independent of the dispute use that label; see MOS:WTW) or "right-wing" (compound adjectives are hyphenated). "Far right wing" (or, grammatically, "far-right-wing") is just a step less histrionic than writing "super-mega-ultra-right-wing"; it's unencyclopedic in tone even if it weren't biased. As for the RS matter, while we can used biased sources sometimes, our use of them has to be balanced by other views, especially if the biased one does not represent a clear consensus among the RS; see WP:UNDUE.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  15:39, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Vents Magazine

I'm posting here about Vents Magazine. Offhand it does seem like it's used on Misplaced Pages, but I can't really verify its editorial oversight or any of the other material. The website doesn't really give off the greatest impression in places, given that they have somewhat broken html in places like "" that doesn't go to any contact form and stuff like this "Rafa". The site is mentioned in a few places like Under the Gun Review, but I'm not finding a huge-huge amount out there to where I'd be comfortable with this given the situation.

What I'd need to know is if these interviews could be considered usable as a reliable source to establish notability. The reason for this is that there have been issues with the article for Rita Pam Tarachi, one of the most major of which is a pretty serious lack of notability. If these are usable these would be the first in-depth sources for the article, as everything else is trivial, primary, or unreliable for various reasons. (IE, self-published sources, etc. One is a review via a website that accepts payment for "expedited" reviews and refuses to give anything less than 4 stars.)

If anyone wants to help out with the article as a whole, feel free. I'm aware that it can sometimes be difficult to find sourcing for other countries like Nigeria, but there seems to be a pretty big lack of sourcing overall at times. This one looks like it can go either way. There have been some attempts to get the article creator to help find better sources, but they don't appear to be entirely helpful in that aspect and they have tried to insist that some of the dodgy sourcing is usable, despite attempts to explain why the sourcing is problematic. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 05:31, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

No reason to use per stating that it is not a major corporation but started ("We are a free online music and entertainment magazine born in March 24th, 2009. Created by music lover Rafael Jóvine, who wanted to create a magazine to spread the word of those bands that are so often not received by other types of magazines) in order to promote some bands, and hosted by "Wordpress". IMO, fails WP:RS. Collect (talk) 14:07, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Jerusalem: A City and Its Future Western Wall#Jewish

At the Western Wall#Jewish section there is a quote attributed to Shlomo Goren (Chief Rabbi of the IDF, Chief Rabbi of Israel, so not a light weight as far as being a scholar, etc.) He wrote that the tradition to pray at the Western Wall is only about 300 years old.

The problem is that this is factually incorrect. See the very same article: Western_Wall#Prayer_at_the_Wall and some highlights:

1. The Scroll of Ahimaaz, a historical document written in 1050 CE, distinctly describes the Western Wall as a place of prayer for the Jews.
2. In around 1167 CE during the late Crusader Period, Benjamin of Tudela wrote that "In front of this place is the Western Wall, which is one of the walls of the Holy of Holies. This is called the Gate of Mercy, and hither come all the Jews to pray before the Wall in the open court".
3. In 1334, Jewish traveller Isaac Chelo wrote: "It is this Western Wall which stands before the temple of Omar ibn al Khattab, and which is called the Gate of Mercy. The Jews resort thither to say their prayers, as Rabbi Benjamin has already related. Today, this wall is one of the seven wonders of the Holy City."

So, do we keep the Goren quote and just mark it with something? Do we not include the quote? It is a notable quote because Goren is notable but it is not factual and it also not a reliable source since it clearly goes against the factual evidence. Sir Joseph 18:38, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Look up Gate of Mercy the above sources site, which is on the east side, not on the Westerhn side. Whether it is factual or not is not for us to judge, unless we can bring to bear sources, not by WP:OR as you did, but sources that detail this continuity. The problem is the notion of exclusivity implied by the Western Wall. The Jews prayed around the Temple Mount, at various locations, and not just at the Western Wall. Their praying on the Mount of Olives rather than there is much better attested. There are extremely meager sources on the period 0 CE to 1,500 C E. You haven't even noted that one of them you cite from the page, Isaac Chelo is a forgery, that should have been removed long ago. Nishidani (talk) 19:50, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

How is my bringing sources OR? Even if you utilize your POV and disregard Chelo, there are other sources. You may wish to have it that Jews didn't pray at the Western Wall until recently but the facts are that they did pray there since it was clearly the only wall left standing, unless of course you claim there was no Jewish temple either? Are you also claiming Benjamin of Tudela is a forgery? Are all other sources a forgery? Is every other source but Goren a forgery? Since the destruction of the Temple, the Western Wall has been the last remaining remnant of the Temple and as such that is where Jews gathered to pray, as the sources all state, your obvious POV bias notwithstanding. If you looked at the sources you will see why the Western Wall was used more often than other sources, since it was the last remnant of the Temple. The other sites were just around Jerusalem. Furthermore, the Gate of Mercy was inaccessible. Sir Joseph 19:58, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

"Reliable" != "infallible." One might easily surmise that the specific tradition may be only 300 years old, although the wall and other locations were places where Jews prayed in the past. Ascribe the statement to the person making it. Collect (talk) 19:55, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

But that is not true, Nishidani is using Goren to say that Jews have started to pray at the Wall only in the past 300 years. That is factually incorrect. The sources I showed above and in the section in the main article show that Jews have been praying at the wall ever since the destruction of the Temple. Sir Joseph 20:02, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

If they said in the article, Jews have only been praying at the west wall 300 years and then used this source then I would see an issue but that's not the case. Here hey are attributing Goron for the statement. The question that we can really answer here is if this source is reliable to show that these are the words of Goron.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 20:20, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

And that's a valid question, I don't know if Goren said it. The book said Goren said it. At this point it's dubious, the Talmud says Jews pray by the Wall because that is now the closest spot to the Temple (that is in the article), certainly the Talmud is a better source than Goren. Sir Joseph 20:51, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

The talmud is not a reliable source to dispute Whether Goren said this or not. It long predates him. This source is either reliable or it's not, to say that Goren said this. The section this is presented in is the views section. Reviewing the source, can it be held as reliable that Goren said this? -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 21:06, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

I brought the Talmud because it obviously predates him and that and the obvious long history of the Jews praying at the Western Wall and the fact that it's the only remaining link to the Temple makes it dubious that he said that Jews have only been praying at the Wall for 300 years. Reading that quote on Misplaced Pages was the first time I have ever heard that idea, not that I am a RS. Sir Joseph 21:56, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

I agree. Original copies of the Talmud predate Goren by a thousand years. Though the Talmud would not be a reliable source to state that WW prayers were offered in 400 AD, it is a powerful argument against the Goren (alleged) statement that WW prayer was invented only 300 years ago. And given the assertion in the Talmud, it is hard to credit that Rabbi Goren contradicted it. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 22:08, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, if the Talmud does mention Jews praying at the wall, then the claim that they have only been doing it for 300 years would be dubious even though the Talmud wouldn't seem to be a RS. However the article doesn't say that Jews have only been praying at the wall for 300 years. It said Goren has said that Jews had only been praying at the wall that long.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:36, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

A rabbi contradicting the Talmud? Are we out of the frying pan and into the cholent, then? Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 22:50, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

So, he's a rabbi and as a rabbi he could certainly never contradict the Talmud? And you reasonable expect that to be accepted as a reason for why this source in not reliable? That would be like me suggesting priests can't molest little alter boys because they are priests. And it certainly nothing to consider in whether this source is reliable or not.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:00, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

As mentioned above, it is not just a matter of being "contradicted." As a rabbi, he could be expected to know the statement is in the Talmud and that the statement would gainsay him (prove him a liar), as argued above. Not only the Talmud, but common tradition argues against him: "During the 1,900-year exile, Jews would travel to Jerusalem at great expense and danger, just to have the chance to pray at the Wall. In the face of disease, lack of water, and marauding bandits, the Jews refused to abandon Jerusalem. Barred by law or wiped out by Crusaders, the Jews always returned." He would need strong scholarly evidence to contradict it -- and none is presented. It seems to be a casual comment with no historical backing. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 23:20, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Whether or not rabbis contradict the Talmud is irrelevant, in this case the Talmud says we pray to the Wall because that's the last remnant of the Temple. It's a factual statement. It's not a question of what ruling and then we have a disagreement. As for rabbis disagreeing, no, if there is no factual disagreeing in the Talmud, you won't have rabbis disagreeing and certainly not a 20th Century one there are rules for that. And allow me to correct myself, it's not actually in the Talmud, it predates it, it's in the Mishna which is even earlier and it is undisputed, there is no Talmud on that tractate. "According to the Mishna, of all the four walls of the Temple Mount, the Western Wall was the closest to the Holy of Holies, and therefore that to pray by the Wall is particularly beneficial." After all that, I have to say it's really dubious if he said it. Like I said before I've never heard this 300 year business before. The Wall was THE place to pray. Sir Joseph 23:29, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Mebbe it was a typo -- they left out a "0". Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 23:35, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

The source looks very much to be both a reliable source and a scholarly source. From the book editors to the writer of the listed essay (Amnon Ramon). No persuasive argument has been made as to why this would not be a reliable source for Goren's position. However, I notice that the wikipedia article lacks any context. While it's certain Goren did say this, the article gives no actual context. What is the context? That the Western Wall was a replacement for the Temple mount. Really here the problem is all contextual. Read the source. Page 300-301 at least. This section in article should be expanded to include more of this source so the context of Goren's statement is clear.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:30, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

This complaint started off the wrong foot, is flawed from the outset, and thus is meaningless, because the complaint is ill-formulated, and based on a false preconception drawn from wiki, not from reliable sources.

(1)Kotel org. is not a reliable source

(2)’ Original copies of the Talmud predate Goren by a thousand years.' Nope. The oldest manuscript of the Jerusalem Talmud dates to 1289 (Leiden Jerusalem Talmud). The Munich Talmud which is the complete compendium dates to 1342.

(3) ‘the Western Wall has been the last remaining remnant of the Temple’ Wrong. It was built centuries after the Temple.

The evidence given to challenge the view of an authoritative rabbi deeply prepossessed by the idea that the Temple Mount should be made over to Israel, not just a piece of wall, all comes from a dubious set of edits in Misplaced Pages that try to substantiate an idea that has yet to find strong textual confirmation.

• (a) We use it to document the mention of the WW in the Scroll of Ahimaaz. If you want a source for that point you use aan authority like Moshe Gil, in Joshua Prawer, Haggai Ben-Shammai (eds.), The History of Jerusalem: The Early Muslim Period (638-1099), NYU Press, 1996 p.176 which however refers to the purchase of oil in a subterranean synagogue adjacent to the Western Wall, which he locates in the (what Moslems call) Masjid al-Buraq.
• (b) Benjamin of Tudela wrote that

"In front of this place is the Western Wall, which is one of the walls of the Holy of Holies. This is called the Gate of Mercy.

As noted by User:Zero0000 and myself, this is confusing, since Benjamin of Tudela associates the Gate of Mercy which is on the other side (eastern side) of the Temple Mount, with the Western Wall, when they are diametrically opposed.

• (c) Isaac Chelo is a forgery.

So Sir Joseph is citing wikipedia’s bad content, with 3 sources that do not sustain the contention, being references to a synagogue near the WW, or to a confusion of the Western Wall with the Eastern Wall site, or a forgery. This is done to challenge a reference by an authority on the wall, Shlomo Goren, in an eminently good secondary source. Jews prayed all round Jerusalem, and the Temple Mount and its recent sanctification as the only site for a millenial observance is just POV pushing to suit a post-1967 political agenda, which retroactively strives to justify its new centrality by asserting what is not proven. This is absurd. If anything, that section’s 3 citations to ‘prove’ Jewish worship at the Wall before the 15th century should be reworked to fix the errors noted above. It cannot be used to discredit Shlomo Goren’s judgement. Sir Joseph is using Misplaced Pages as a reliable source to challenge what an external reliable source cites as an authoritative rabbinical opinion. That turns the whole method of Misplaced Pages on its head.Nishidani (talk) 13:16, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

FWIW, the Goren source states that he agrees the wall was a prayer site (as was the Temple Mount) until the Ottoman restrictions left only one site available for Jewish prayer -- the reason for his pronouncement, moreover, was in the context of him supporting building of a synagogue on an added part of the Temple Mount. As this gives context to the "300 years" quote, the full context should be given. Collect (talk) 13:08, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

I should add that while Shlomo Goren was likely to have looked closely into this matter, and was an authoritative voice, his view is not what we call 'authoritative' in historical terms. As far as I can see the question is as yet indeterminate. But we must be very careful in this area as elsewhere of Invented Traditions being passed off anachronistically as facts. Only focused scholarship on the specifics can hold weight here.Nishidani (talk) 18:02, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

as I pointed out earlier, it wasn't the Talmud, it was the mishna which is even earlier. In addition, there are two Talmud, the Babylonian and Jerusalem, and the latest one was from around 500 or so. Secondly, the claim that the wall is built only centuries after the temple is historical revisionism. The wall has been modified for centuries but it's been there by the temple.

There is a lot of confusion over details here. The entire west wall of the Temple Mount is very long but the part of it called the Western Wall/Wailing Wall/Kotel is quite short. I'll apply capitalisation carefully to distinguish. There are old writings about the west wall in general, such as in the Misha, but there are not any pre-medieval writings that clearly identify the Western Wall as a special place for prayer. Many authors feed this confusion by adding capital letters to "western wall" in old writings when the originals have no such indication. To address the Misha, it says that of the four walls of the mount the west wall is the one closest to the "holy of holies", but that doesn't support the Western Wall being a special place because it is quite far south from the most likely location of the "holy of holies" (namely, where the Dome of the Rock is now). The first sources that might refer to the region of the Western Wall are from the Fatmid period, where a few surviving letters refer to a cave used for prayer somewhere in that general area. Moshe Gil suggested it was located in the passage behind Barclay's Gate (at the south end of the Western Wall, long since sealed up), but more recent authors prefer Warren's Gate to the north of the Western Wall. About Goren, although he probably had the facts at his fingertips, he was extremely biased and would have said whatever suited him. In 1967 he tried to convince the local IDF commander to blow up all the Islamic buildings on the Mount; that's a fair summary of his nature. Zero 22:01, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

• Goren's statement is offered as a view, specifically a Jewish view. It is attributed to him and not in wikipedia voice. The only real problem is that as in in the article it lacks context. They leave out the real meat of what is being said and they Cherry Pick the bones. It probably shouldn't remain as is. There's nothing I can see as wrong with including the views represented by Goren in the source as long as they are carefully attributed and given in context.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:40, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

There is no reason not to include Goren within proper context. The text from Jerusalem: A City and Its Future:

Goren also tried to explain that the tradition of the Western Wall as a Jewish prayer site is only three hundred years old and had its origins in restrictions imposed by the Ottoman authorities on Jewish worship elsewhere in the Temple Mount area. “We cannot claim rights at the Western Wall,” Goren wrote to PM Yitzchak Rabin in August 1994. “Its sanctity lies entirely in the fact that it demarcates the Temple Mount, in being a substitute for the Mount of the Lord… As for the haredi rabbis, whose lack of topographic and halakhic knowledge makes them afraid to ascend the Temple Mount and worship there — good luck to them. But we and the entire nation should be permitted to pray freely on the Temple Mount and the Muslims given free access and control of their mosques" (qtd. in Shragai 1994a).

Another source:

For Rabbi Goren, the Western Wall, at which Jews had prayed at for only 300 years, was an extremely important, but nonetheless, secondary, sight. The heart of Jewish longing for 2,000 years was not the Western Wall, but the Beit HaMikdash on Har Habayit, the Temple on the Temple Mount. P. 69 (Rabbi Shlomo Goren: Torah Sage and General) pp. 300-1

Goren's letter:

Honored Ministers! Your decision by which you forbid me, as an individual, and the Jews as a whole, from praying on the Temple Mount shocked me to the depths of my soul. Your decision means that the only place in the world in which an express and specific ban has been placed on the Jew, as a Jew, to pray, is Mount Moriah, the mount of the L-rd to which all of Israel's prayers are directed, the location of the nation's Holy of Holies...

From the destruction of the Second Temple until three hundred years ago, the prayers of Jews on the Temple Mount did not cease... The uniqueness of the Kotel (Western Wall) as a place of prayer is a historical innovation, and is not more than three hundred years old. It began after the decrees and limitations placed by the Muslim rulers on the Jews, and the abrogation of the 'synagogue' ... that had existed for centuries on the Temple Mount... In no manner or form is the Western Wall entitled to be a substitute for the Mount of the Lord. The prayers at the Wall symbolize the exile of the people and its expulsion from the Temple Mount, while our prayers on the Temple Mount represent the return of the people to its land and the place of its Temple. 'Who could conceive that Israel's security forces would be compelled to obstruct Jews from praying before the Lord, when the Temple Mount is under the government of Israel? And is this our situation now, after our dazzling victory? Is this what we waited for - that the government of Israel would discriminate between Jew and Muslim, and place guards lest, Heaven forbid, Jewish prayer would be uttered on the Temple Mount, about which the Prophets prophesied, 'For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples' ? Jewish history shall not forgive us for this. 'My request is to open wide the gates of the Temple Mount to all Jews and for everyone in the world. Save the Holy of Holies of the nation, do not hand over the Temple Mount to those who defile it.

'Signed in grief, in hope, and in blessing, Shlomo Goren, General, Chief Rabbi of Israel.'"

In note 2 to temple mount western wall israeli law S. Berkowitz writes: Former Chief Rabbi S Goren believes that the Western Wall became a permanent Jewish prayer site in the 16th century.See Goren, S. The Temple Mount, Jerusalem 1992, p.4.

And, contrary to Sir Joseph above, there is no reference to Jewish prayer by the western wall in early rabbinic texts, as far as I'm aware. "To pray by the Wall is particularly beneficial" does not appear in the the Mishna or Talmud. Chesdovi (talk) 16:01, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

References

1. pg. 300.
2. "The Western Wall Plaza". Western Wall Heritage Foundation. Retrieved October 19, 2008.
3. Adler N. M. (1927) The Itinerary of Benjamin of Tudela London; pages 222–223.
4. Adler, Elkan Nathan; David, Judah (2004). "The Roads from Jerusalem, by Isaac ben Joseph ibn Chelo (1334)". Jewish Travellers. Routledge. pp. g.131. ISBN 0-415-34466-2.
5. Middot 2:1

What is clear from the above is that the whole section needs close revision, since it is badly sourced, or inaccurate. It is obvious that Goren had his own motive for underplaying the importance of the WW, since his aim was to get hold of the Temple site itself beyond it, and evidently thought reverence for the wall a sop that distracted eyes from the central quest beyond it. That in itself doesn't undermine the authority of his statement: he wouldn't have made it were it easily discreditable, and his remark fits what we know (which is distorted in what should be objected to, the line up of B of Tudela, Chelo et al., to assert the contrary. The source used is impeccable, and no good arguments have been given to deny it a place on the page.Nishidani (talk) 16:45, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

• Well said NIshidani. It is really simple. If there are contradictory sources, we can bring both, with attribution. This is the rule always, and in this case as well. Debresser (talk) 20:23, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

BroadwayWorld.com?

I have another site to question - would BroadwayWorld.com be considered reliable? I've always questioned its usability and my first impulse is that it isn't, as the site sells tickets and runs as a job site. That makes it a little too close for comfort, since it'd be well within their best interest to cover things that they're selling. It's used a lot on Misplaced Pages and I do see it listed as a source in academic works like this one.

What's your take on this? It's certainly popular. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:14, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Not per WP:RS and I note the reference use is to an article from a press release in any event. OUP should have noted, by the way, that duplicates of the exact same article are cited in that footnote as though they were separate and distinct articles. This is one of the failings of "reliable sources" in the past decade or so - they no longer have people researching and fact checking what they write - they simply cut-and-paste press releases. No time to yank its uses - but it ain't a "reliable source" as Misplaced Pages officially defines the term. It is a commercial site running press releases. Collect (talk) 13:01, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Draft:TopSpeed.com

Hi there, I'm trying to improve Draft:TopSpeed.com to increase the number of references that are about the publication itself rather than the publication's content. I found this source that seems to hit the spot, being a third-party review of the website, but I'm not sure how reliable it is. Looking forward for any advice, thanks! WikiAlexandra (talk) 10:23, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

This looks like it would fall under WP:USERG, but then we do list Rotten Tomatoes ratings for movies and television episodes. I think the kicker is whether the rating site is independently notable and reputable. Has anyone in mainstream media written or talked about Bestcompany.com? Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Other than press releases and guest posts, it doesn't look like that website has been mentioned in the mainstream media. I won't use it then :) WikiAlexandra (talk) 13:27, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Igor Beuker - dubious sources

Could somebody have a look at the article on Igor Beuker as I don't think the references used are reliable. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 10:23, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Most of the references are in a different language. I don't speak Dutch so I think a second set of eyes would be helpful but I removed a few of the poor sources referenced to blogs. Meatsgains (talk) 18:03, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

• Good catch, Daytona2. It has sources, and so is not eligible for WP:BLPPROD (unfortunately) but I don't see a single reliable third-party source. I can make out some Dutch, on a good day. Also the kind of sites these are tells you a lot. I've prodded the article. Bishonen | talk 19:50, 14 February 2016 (UTC).

Gary T. Schwartz "The Myth of the Ford Pinto Case"

http://www.pointoflaw.com/articles/The_Myth_of_the_Ford_Pinto_Case.pdf

A claque of editors at the Ford Pinto article would like to suppress virtually all mention of the above paper by a reasonably well known law professor. http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jul/30/local/me-28306

This article presents a revised view of the Pinto fuel tank case, in which, with hindsight destroys many of the exaggerated claims made by the Mother Jones article and various trial lawyers. It has been referred to in various other published sources eg http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/05/04/the-engineers-lament http://www.aurelbrudan.com/tag/business-ethics/ etc, all available via a google search.

Specific claims addressed by the paper include the number of deaths that actually occurred, the fact that the memo was not written about rear end impacts or the Pinto, the relative safety of Pinto compared with other cars.

Schwartz's study said:

−

• The Pinto Memo wasn't used or consulted internally by Ford, but rather was attached to a letter written to NHTSA about proposed regulation. When plaintiffs tried to use the memo in support of punitive damages, the trial judge ruled it inadmissible for that purpose

−

• The Pinto's fuel tank location behind the axle, ostensibly its design defect, was "commonplace at the time in American cars"

−

• The precedent of the California Supreme Court at the time not only tolerated manufacturers trading off safety for cost, but apparently encouraged manufacturers to consider such trade-offs

Greglocock (talk) 00:51, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

To be clear: At least from my perspective, the dispute is less over WP:RS and more over WP:UNDUE. As I said on the talk page, I have no objection to devoting a sentence or two to this paper; but I object to referencing it directly in the lead, or to structuring the entire discussion of the Pinto case in order to make this paper central. It is not, going by most sources, that significant. It is one point of view among many others, and deserves the same amount of weight any of those other sources would get, not (say) an entire section. --Aquillion (talk) 00:56, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Ditto to Aquillion's comments. Greglocock is incorrect in saying we're trying to exclude this source. We're trying to stop Greg from dedicating huge portions of the article to it. NickCT (talk) 06:49, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Given that it seems to be a more authoritative and accurate document, why shouldn't it get more weight? Anmccaff (talk) 06:53, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

@Anmccaff: - The editors supporting the inclusion are giving the paper an entire subsection and a paragraph in the lead. You think that's appropriate given the existence of hundreds of more authoritative, accurate and secondary sources on the topic? NickCT (talk) 07:06, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

That depends. If these "hundreds" of sources essentially flow from the same initial sources, it is quite possible for them to be all equally good, or equally bad; they are, in effect, only one source repeated. Anmccaff (talk) 07:14, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

@Anmccaff: - Fair enough. I think we're going to find a compromise solution on the article's talkpage. That compromise will probably keep the Scwartz source albeit in some less prominent way. Either way, the discussion here seems a little silly as no one seems to be arguing against the source in question being reliable. NickCT (talk) 07:39, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

For the record, the article has not recently given a "huge" portion of the article to Schwartz paper; it explains the Schwartz paper and why it's meaningful to the controversy. It does not give an entire paragraph in the lead to the Schwartz paper, rather one paragraph in the lead cites three factors affecting the legacy of the Ford Pinto:

The Pinto's legacy was affected by media controversy and legal cases surrounding its fuel tank safety, a recall of the car in 1978, and a later study examining incident data, concluding the Pinto was as safe as, or safer than, other cars in its class. The Pinto has been cited as a noted business ethics case.

The article has not most recently (as an offered compromise) had a formal subsection devoted to the Schwartz paper, but rather is formatted as a sub-sub-section -- giving the Schwartz Paper a part of a section, but giving it no mention in the table of contents. This makes it more important to mention in the lead, otherwise it is buried in the article (i.e., no mention in the lead, no mention in the table of contents, the article subjugating a cogent and reliable argument pertaining directly to the subject of the article, the Ford Pinto.

Most recently the article was reverted repeatedly to completely remove ANY mention of the Schwartz paper (e.g., right now). So even though the Schwartz paper is notably cited in post-litigation reporting (and it's no more cherry-picking to find these references, than it is cherry-pick them out of a Misplaced Pages article). The Schwartz paper was cited by noted legal scholar Walter Olson, has been cited in the New York Times numerous times, and was cited by noted author Malcom Gladwell. There has been an extremely careful and concerted effort to find a balance on this issue. And clearly it has little to do with the reliability of Schwartz as a source.842U (talk)

Is a retractation likely due to legal threats a reliable source?

There is a discussion concerning English Democrats where, among other things, The Economist is proposed to be used as a source for the claim that the English Democrats are not a "far-right" party, because the newspaper published this correction to one previous article which claimed otherwise.

However, we know from the statement of a leader of the involved party that The Economist most likely received legal threats which led to their retractation. The same editor and party leader (as well as some of his colleagues) has been known for making legal threats against Misplaced Pages editors. That these editors actually are who they purport to be was proven by posts on party-affiliated blogs concerning the events on Misplaced Pages in which they were involved.

Given these facts, is the "correction" by The Economist to be considered a reliable source for the English Democrats' political position, considering we have ample reasons to suspect it was obtained by employing legal threats?

LjL (talk) 19:17, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

We use published sources. What that means in this case is that we should trust the Economist editorial team's judgment. We don't know that they only retracted the source for reasons not related to accuracy; we merely suspect it. What if it was retracted because of legal threats and misstated facts? While it is right and good for us to wonder why a retraction was made and there may be extreme situations in which something may be disregarded, I personally see that happening in cases with a large number of corroborating sources, and even then the retraction would have to be acknowledged, as in "In an article in the The Economist that was later retracted, Specific Author wrote '...'" Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:50, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

We don't simply use published sources, we use reliable sources, which has more stringent criteria. There are many possible reasons why an otherwise reliable source may be (or become) unreliable for a specific fact: a source that has likely been coerced into stating something may not become wrong, but it does lose reliability: how can we rely on it anymore? It's similar to how we often can't rely on government-controlled agency when they make government-backed claims. LjL (talk) 21:19, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

I mean that we should rely on the editorial judgment that they used when the issued the retraction. Yes, this source becomes suspect when retracted. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:12, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't think a retraction is a great source for a statement of fact (that the party "is not" far right). Certainly, we can't rely on the original, now retracted, claim - but given that lots of other sources also describe the party as far right, I can't see how the economists' retraction could trump (or be used to dismiss) those other sources. This seems more like an issue of weight than of source reliability though. The question of why the retraction was printed doesn't really matter so much - how much weight it carries is a much more important question. Fyddlestix (talk) 19:58, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

I agree that we can't rely on the original claim: we can rely on neither. The Economist simply stops being a reliable source for this matter, in my opinion. I prefer to leave issues of weight to other editors at the moment, as I do not have the time or inclination to analyze all the sources available, but I do want to ensure that sources that have been invalidated by events (and potentially by bad-faith threats) cannot be used. LjL (talk) 21:19, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

As a general rule, I think a reliable source publishing a correction is a reliable indication that a statement is incorrect or at least too dubious to be asserted as true in Misplaced Pages's voice without a much higher standard of supporting evidence than usual. In this specific case speculation about "legal threats" appears to be off the mark. One of the parties involved has published what purports to be the conversation online, which appears to be them stating their case and requesting a "right of reply", and the editor of the WP:RS saying "I accept this was inaccurate" and offering to publish a correction. (for the avoidance of doubt, the Press Complaints Commission mentioned in the first letter had no power to do anything other than rule on whether a correction should be published or not)

Is primary source not acceptable for Indian caste?

Hi, I wanted to restore the page Mathur Vaishya to its previous state which was based on the primary reference . However, Sitush is banking very hard that primary sources are not acceptable for castes. I want to ask if it is true? If yes, why? Finding 3rd party sources for Indian caste system is very hard because of the nature of the subject and language barrier as well. Mr RD 19:41, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Sitush is right. Basically, the reason is that primary sources need to be interpreted, and Misplaced Pages editors aren't the right people to interpret them, as that would be original research, which is not allowed. We have to refer to interpretation by reliable secondary sources. See WP:PRIMARY for details. I see you have posted your question on several noticeboards — I don't quite understand why. One is enough. Indeed, IMO, listening to Sitush is enough. He knows a lot about caste pages and their sources.Bishonen | talk 20:00, 14 February 2016 (UTC).

It is a long-established consensus that caste association websites are not reliable. Caste articles are very prone to puffery instigated by members of the relevant caste, and caste-affiliated websites spout the same nonsense. Furthermore, despite their sometimes vocal claims, no caste association of which I am aware is anything other than a group of like-minded people who are members of the caste: they have no particular academic qualification, no official status and, indeed, no "proof" that they are even accepted by the majority of those who share the same caste. Their websites are vanity publications, highly biassed in tone and usually with a socio-political agenda. PRIMARY per se is thus not even the major issue here.

There are plenty of academic etc studies of castes knocking around. If all we can find is stuff published by a caste association then, frankly, the community is not notable. Please also bear in mind that many castes come and go: there is a process of fission and fusion as people jostle for position, which is one reason why they shout so loudly. - Sitush (talk) 20:52, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Title of New Scientist web article

In the transhumanist politics article, referring to politician Giuseppe Vatinno, it says, "New Scientist dubbed him 'the world's first transhumanist politician.' " The source for this is the title -- not the body -- of an article on the New Scientist website: "Meet the world's first transhumanist politician", which is an interview with the man. An editor removed this content, saying that it is unreliable and suggesting that this is because it uses the title -- which they consider to be clickbait -- instead of the body.

Is the title of a New Scientist web article a reliable source for simply quoting that title and attributing it to the publisher?

--Haptic Feedback (talk) 01:38, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

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