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December 2014

Please read this notification carefully:
A community discussion has authorised the use of general sanctions for pages related to the Gamergate controversy, such as Talk:Gamergate controversy, which you have recently edited.
The details of these sanctions are described here.

General sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimise disruption in controversial topic areas. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to these topics that do not adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, our standards of behaviour, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. An editor can only be sanctioned after he or she has been made aware that general sanctions are in effect. This notification is meant to inform you that sanctions are authorised in these topic areas, which you have been editing. It is only effective if it is logged here. Before continuing to edit pages in these topic areas, please familiarise yourself with the general sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date. Strongjam (talk) 19:23, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Welcome!

Hello, Rhoark! Welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. You may benefit from following some of the links below, which will help you get the most out of Misplaced Pages. If you have any questions you can ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or by typing four tildes "~~~~"; this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you are already excited about Misplaced Pages, you might want to consider being "adopted" by a more experienced editor or joining a WikiProject to collaborate with others in creating and improving articles of your interest. Click here for a directory of all the WikiProjects. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field when making edits to pages. Happy editing! Avono (talk) 14:04, 20 December 2014 (UTC) Getting Started Contributing to Misplaced Pages The five pillars of Misplaced Pages • Tutorial • Your first article How to: edit a page • upload an image Getting Help Frequently Asked Questions New contributors' help page Where to: ask questions • make requests Request administrator attention Policies and Guidelines Neutral point of view • Reliable sources Verifiability • Citing sources • No original research What Misplaced Pages is not • Biographies of living persons Simplified Manual of Style • Three-revert rule Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism • Sock puppetry Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The Community Community Portal • Adopt-a-user program Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • Resolving disputes Build consensus • Village pump IRC channels • Mailing lists Discover what's going on in the Wikimedia community (The Signpost) Things to do Be bold in editing • Help develop an article Maintenance • Peer review • Requested articles Join a WikiProject • Translating articles Cleaning up: General • Spam • Vandalism Miscellaneous Categories • Disambiguity • Stubs User pages • Talk pages Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

A Very Selfish request

Hi Rhoark, when responding to people on talk pages, could you select "edit section" instead of edit page? It makes it much easier for people reading the talk page history or looking at their watchlist, to see if a talk section they're interested in/involved with has had a response. Sorry for bothering.Bosstopher (talk) 14:53, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Will do, thanks for bringing it to my attention. Rhoark (talk) 14:55, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Great contribution

I just read your comments here and was very impressed by your reasoning and citation of Misplaced Pages policy. Very well argued. Unfortunately, I don't think you will convince many other editors who are entrenched as they don't seem to be discussing the issue with you in good faith (e.g. RPoD's "mommy mommy" comment) but I can say you have certainly changed my view. Thank you for that informative post.

Even if there is some debate over the way you invoked the policies you cited, let's not forget the most important Misplaced Pages policy of them all. PirkeiAvot (talk) 21:17, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

• I edited the above to remove references on the talk page. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 05:19, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Hopefully enough people can be convinced to move forward with achieving neutrality. Rhoark (talk) 21:52, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

People who link to the "most important Misplaced Pages policy of them all" always seem to forget or ignore the very important conditional that is attached to to the IAR part. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:57, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Enforcement request

I have filed an enforcement request related to your recent conduct at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Rhoark. You are welcome to respond. Hipocrite (talk) 00:11, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• I am no admin and is my personal opinion ... you need to take a break from GamerGate, at least right now. Or reflect more on your past actions. It's not looking good for you. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 05:19, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I will take that under advisement. Your concern is appreciated. Rhoark (talk) 05:30, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
    • For what it's worth, I am inclined to think that you have the best interests of the encyclopedia in mind; I'm not sure how much it means, coming from me, but I heartily second Starship.paint's suggestion.

On an unrelated note (and why I came here), I wanted to mention to you that (I believe) statements are generally limited to 500 words, unless an admin approves longer. I'm certain they'll let you know if they have an issue, but it might be worth you considering asking one of the admin's for an exception, or how you can maintain your point while shortening your statement. AtomsOrSystems (talk) 05:49, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• Additionally, regarding the WP:V core content policy (not to be violated), the "burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material". Regarding the essay WP:BRD, the person making the edit (not the revert) is supposed to discuss, after the revert happens. But if a "reversion is met with another bold effort, then should consider not reverting, but discussing". starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 07:50, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement sanction

The following sanction now applies to you:

Prohibited from editing the Gamergate controversy article and its talk page (including all sub-pages of both) until 12:00, 02 May 2015 (UTC).

You have been sanctioned for the reasons provided in this arbitration enforcement request.

This sanction is imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator under the authority of the Arbitration Committee's decision at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate#Final decision and, if applicable, the procedure described at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions. If the sanction includes a ban, please read the banning policy to ensure you understand what this means. If you do not comply with this sanction, you may be blocked for an extended period, by way of enforcement of this sanction—and you may also be made subject to further sanctions.

You may appeal this sanction using the process described here. I recommend that you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template if you wish to submit an appeal to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. You may also appeal directly to me (on my talk page), before or instead of appealing to the noticeboard. Even if you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful. You are also free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 14:18, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

• I will also warn you that misconduct in the area discretionary sanctions have been authorised ((a) GamerGate, (b) any gender-related dispute or controversy, (c) people associated with (a) or (b)) will likely result in a broad topic ban for an extended period of time. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 14:18, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

John A. Shaw

Hi Rhoark, thanks for making these updates—plus one I hadn't even got around to asking about yet. The article still has a number of problems (something editors have pointed out in the past: here, here, and here) and I'd like to figure out the best way to go about fixing that. For one thing, much of the text is highly critical of Mr. Shaw, yet relies only on sources from 2003 and 2004, without reflecting later developments. If you are willing to hear me out on a few specifics, let me know. Either way, I'll be posting them to the Shaw discussion page soon, and probably go to BLP/N next if you're busy. Thanks again, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 23:39, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

@WWB Too: It's not something I'd care to do the legwork on, but if you can provide a few sourced draft sentences about later developments, I'd certainly vet them. Rhoark (talk) 23:51, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

No problem, I've been working on that in the background. I'll put that together and likely post those up at the Shaw discussion page later this week. Best, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 02:38, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Reliable sources

Thanks for your input over there. We didn't see quite eye to eye, but what you said made a lot of sense and I really appreciate both your diplomacy and that you took the time. Formerly 98 (talk) 22:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Rhoark (talk) 23:22, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Continuing discussion as to RS

Hi, Rhoark. I was about to issue a trout slap to myself for my knee-jerk reaction to IP 78.68.210.173 on the relevant ANI, but it was kindly closed off by Drmies. I've written a lengthy comment on my own talk to the IP as to the circumstances, and have left a talkback notification for that particular contributor.

Nevertheless, I'll be following that particular RS/N for as long as the thread is kept 'alive', not because I'm particularly concerned with that particular IP having started a new entry, but at your behest. I am more than happy to continue discussion as to parsing where Western, Russian, Chinese or any other news analysis is relevant dependent on the context. Whether or not we see eye-to-eye on any issues is irrelevant: I don't always see eye-to-eye with any of the other contributors/editors with absolutist views on the value of purportedly RS sources and opposed to 'naughty' sources that should never be seen as anything less than always biased (i.e., Western sources are always RS, whereas 'other' sources have an agenda). All sources used for recent events in particular have an agenda. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:28, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: Thanks for being constructive. The discussion seems to have died out. I had hoped for better. I don't agree with the Russian point of view, but I agree with those who feel it deserves better treatment under NPOV policy. I think it will be of historical interest. Twice I've pulled out a chair for them at the table by quoting a policy framework for them to work under. Both times the response has been to tantrum and not present even a draft sentence for article space. My position remains the same, but I'm not going to wade in with my own drafts. Rhoark (talk) 21:44, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

My pleasure, Rhoark. Defining RS is highly problematic and, more often than not, I find myself 'writing for the enemy' despite the fact that I have not turned to mainstream reportage as my personal preference for information for around 40 years. Erhem, would you believe that I was paying attention whilst still in my mother's womb? No?

There has been much in the way of railing against commercial news services, but discussions as to how to evaluate RS are constantly being marred by overenthusiastic crusaders who have only just encountered socio-political/economic/geostrategic interests and think there are simple answers to complex questions because they're obviously the first people to have identified these discrepancies... ever! Discussions normally end up taking place within the confines of specific queries at the RSN where they're quickly dismissed/ignored.

The only methodology for tackling higher level questions of narrative lines is to start a dedicated talk page. Again, this approach has been tackled behind the scenes of the RSN and NPOVN, but 'arguments' have descended into arguments simply because anyone can join in. While, in theory, I do believe that these should be open venues, the objective ends up being lost in more 'my 2¢ worth' than focus on the nitty-gritty of the exercise.

Sigh, well that's my 2¢. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:51, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

I haven't even edited it

Greetings. The said cabal (of which Drimes seems to be a part of, for he stalks every post I make and is the one that closed the mediation, the administration notice, the post in the discussion page) has made the Battle of Ilovaisk a semi-protected article so I have not even been able to edit it, they have instead deleted my and other peoples comments on the talk-page. As I have exhausted all options I will from now on only insult or ignore Iryna Harpy. Good game, let the propaganda flow free. I am probably done with editing for a while again. 78.68.210.173 (talk) 14:05, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Have you read my essay?

Hi Rhoark. I took a look at your RSRUBRIC essay, and it reminded me about an essay I myself wrote a while ago, Verifiability, and truth. Not entirely the same topic, but certainly related, I think. Thought I'd just share the link in case you haven't seen it yet. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 18:37, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, what I'm doing depends on looking at a lot of different perspectives. There have been several times I was about to commit a sentence to the essay, then realized I had been on the receiving end of that claim before and disagreed with it. It's a tightrope act. Rhoark (talk) 18:54, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Game archiving

Sometimes I visit Reddit, trying to get an advanced look at potential trouble headed Misplaced Pages's way. I just saw your post there attempting to build support for game archiving. As a librarian, I wanted to express my admiration for your efforts. I know nothing about game archiving in particular, though I have studied and written about the preservation of digital material so I'm aware of the complexities involved in archiving this stuff that you were trying to explain to people. It is disappointing that so many there were determined to look at what should be an important and neutral issue through the lens of their ideology. Gamaliel (talk) 19:22, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

There is indeed an account named rhoark on reddit expressing some very insightful views. They are also probably very handsome. It's unfortunate that so many people continue to focus on "winning", without realizing anything but peaceful resolution is not a winning condition. Thanks for reaching out. Here's some more about game archival you might find interesting Rhoark (talk) 21:28, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the links. The Gamasutra article was especially interesting - and depressing. It's sad how much of our technological and digital history is being lost because of inadequate historical archiving. I ran into the same problem with my research (as yet unpublished, but I'm hoping this year) into early webcomics. We simply can't pinpoint for sure what the first webcomic was because so much from the internet and online services in the 90s was simply not preserved. Gamaliel (talk) 19:47, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration amendment request archived

Hi Rhoark, this is to let you know that an Arbitration amendment request listing you as a party has been archived to the GamerGate case talk page, because there was no consensus for amendment among arbitrators. For the Arbitration Committee, --L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 17:19, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Original research and Synth

I looked over your editing history and found that you have restored or added original research/Synth in way too many cases. You made you first edit on November 24 last year, restoring these unsourced pearls of wisdom, reworked them and later added your opinion which you sourced to blogs that say nothing of the sort and don't even mention the topic of that article. A short stint at Talk:Frankfurt School conspiracy theory followed where you argued that describing "Cultural Marxism" as a conspiracy theory is "prejudicing" and something about editors editing for "the Russian side". Then after 16 such edits, you arrived on the GamerGate controversy page and talk page, essentially becoming an SPA who did very little other than discuss GG, comment on GG enforcement requests and the GG ArbCom case, and work on GG in your sandbox. After you were prohibited from editing the GG page, you branched out into new gender related topics, where you continued to add or restore OR/Synth like here, here and here. You have opinions about these topics and you have found published material that you believe is relevant so you add that material although the sources do not discuss the topic of the articles. It's like you added a sourced paragraph about virginity to the atheism page. Your sources discuss virginity. But they don't mention it in connection with atheism. But because you think that virginity is obviously related to atheism, you just add it to the atheism article. You are a regular on the OR and RS noticeboards although you don't seem to follow the WP:OR policy in your own edits. The ArbCom case was meant to prevent the GamerGate nonsense from spilling over onto other articles, especially gender related ones, but so far it looks like your unhelpful editing hasn't received adequate scrutiny. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 11:27, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

This walk through memory lane is cherry-picked, unrepresentative, and generally without purpose. I'm sure I could tell an unflattering story about your editing history as well, but I don't care to do that. If I have any preoccupation in my editing, its countering editors that twist OR to push their PoV - which brings us here. I'll be addressing the specific content questions on the relevant talk pages. Rhoark (talk) 16:19, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Request for dispute resolution re: Moon Landing

Hi, I've made a request for dispute resolution regarding the Moon Landing article. Just wanted to let you know :) LadyLeitMotif (talk) 12:48, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

April 2015

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Misplaced Pages, as you did at Anal jihad. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted or removed. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Repeated vandalism can result in loss of editing privileges. Thank you. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:48, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

@Guy Macon: Your reversions are violations of WP:BLP, as I've explained repeatedly on the talk page. I've requested comment from BLP/N rather than edit warring with you. You are not in the right with respect to content policy, and if you continue to push this as a conduct matter expect it to WP:BOOMERANG. Rhoark (talk) 16:02, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Go for it. There is no living person named "Rape Jihad" and the article in question is not a biography. "BLP" is not a magic word that allows you to delete anything you don't like, and Misplaced Pages's BLP policy does not protect large political organizations such as the Muslim Brotherhood from criticism. There is no 3RR restriction on reverting vandalism. Note that I !voted for deletion at the AfD -- I don't think the article belongs on Misplaced Pages -- but that does not imply that you are free to vandalize it. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:17, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

The fact that the article is headed to deletion makes me disinclined to file any extra proceedings about it. BLP applies everywhere on the encyclopedia, and WP:BURDEN applies everywhere in article space. I suggest you look closer at these policies, lest the next time you try these tactics you encounter an editor less forbearing than I. Rhoark (talk) 16:24, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

MRM article probation

Thank you for your contributions to the encyclopedia! In case you are not already aware, an article to which you have recently contributed, Men's rights movement, is on article probation. A detailed description of the terms of article probation may be found at Talk:Men's rights movement/Article probation. Also note that the terms of some article probations extend to related articles and their associated talk pages.

The above is a templated message. Please accept it as a routine friendly notice, not as a claim that there is necessarily any problem with your edits. Thank you. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 11:46, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Reference errors on 4 June

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NGR

Hi,

Hope all's well. I noticed you stopped by at the No Gun Ri Massacre talk page. I also noticed that you sometimes provide third opinions. Right now, what we need more than anything is the involvement of third party editors on this page, which has seen some turmoil and dispute in the past. If you could perhaps help mediate the discussion and editing process, we'd all really appreciate it.

Thanks,

GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 17:09, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm preparing to comment on the RSN question at least. Rhoark (talk) 17:41, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

You may have missed it. You may have decided to ignore it. If so, not very nice. But I would like you to address the question posed at Talk:No Gun Ri Massacre when you deigned to dip in from nowhere and seem to say, "Oh, a bunch of lies isn't important when WP: protocols are involved." Are you serious? Or not? Here's the exchange (explain, pls)...

'I read your link. I did not find any persuasive argument based in policy. Rhoark (talk) 16:27, 24 June 2015 (UTC)"

I'm not sure what policy or policies you're referring to. The one I'm working by, honesty (as in "the best policy"), says a guy who plays fraudulent shell games with documents is hardly reliable. What am I missing? Charles J. Hanley 17:14, 24 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjhanley (talk • contribs) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.122.243.84 (talk)

Hi, Cjhanley. Rhoark would be watching the article as a neutral editor, as am I. I've also been following the development of the article content as a third party, and believe it has been subject to ownership problems virtually since its inception. Personally, I'm looking forward to Rhoark's query at the RSN as I haven't been able to find the time to address POV problems with the article content itself at this point... but there definitely are problems with the article as it stands.

I'd be grateful if someone could ping me once a new section is opened if I don't get the chance to comment on the article's talk page prior this. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:24, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I have already said what I was going to say back in June, responding to GeneralizationsAreBad at RSN. Rhoark (talk) 04:43, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Rhoark, I missed that RSN discussion. Could you point me to where it's archived? If not, I'll search the archives so's I can get a handle on the current status of the Bateman issue. Thanks. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:58, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

You can search the archive for Bateman. The discussion was stale when I saw it, so I wrote on the article talk page. Rhoark (talk) 14:20, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

@Cjhanley: Any policy would be a start. I don't doubt there are problems with Bateman, but use reliable sources to describe those problems in the article. Don't scold everyone about the inclusion of a viewpoint with significant attention from secondary sources. Also, if you are the same Charles Hanley who tried to block publication of Bateman's book, you should drop the stick immediately. Rhoark (talk) 04:43, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

The web of deception woven by Bateman 15 years ago has ensnared too many otherwise sensible people. No one "tried to block publication" of his book. The journalists who confirmed No Gun Ri wrote his editor warning him that Bateman had spread lies on the Internet about the massacre, carried out by his regiment, and about the journalists, and that his manuscript should be carefully fact-checked. We gave him examples. The editor, a U.S. Army colonel, checked nothing (it defies belief that he even read it before publishing that horrorshow of a book). Bateman then turned around and accused the journalists of trying to block publication. How they would have accomplished that, he didn't explain. But at least he had you believing him.

As for your suggestion of citing other sources to knock down Bateman, this is a root problem of a No Gun Ri Massacre article already out of control. Inserting material debunking each bit of Bateman nonsense would inflate the wordage, and confuse the reader, well beyond the current overkill and confusion. Similarly, citing too much from the 2001 U.S. Army "investigative" report, a blatant whitewash, as anyone reading even the current article can readily see, would require still more words showing that the report concealed this and lied about that. In the end, the reader gains nothing. (By the way, this "counterpointing" was tried in some cases, but WeldNeck simply reverts everything he doesn't like -- even more of a root problem with the article.)

What the article needs is simplification, sticking to what is known and unknown about a well-established war crime. It should not be an article waxing on about infiltration via refugees (as though piling on these rumors and shaky reports justifies the slaughter of women and children); it should not be an article about the Army report and its myriad deceits; it should not be an article about Bateman's lies-laden 2000 attack on the AP, long ago made moot and pointless by official and journalistic inquiries corroborating the original report.

GeneralizationsAreBad, Timothyjosephwood, Irondome and Wikimedes appeared interested weeks back in taking on the challenge, but things have bogged down. At Talk:No Gun Ri Massacre#To move ahead on Background section, a proposed edit of a relatively noncontroversial section awaits. Comments, revisions are invited. I hope we can move ahead and restore some quality to the article, hopefully with help as well from Iryna Harpy and from you. Thanks. Charles J. Hanley 14:53, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

It is not acceptable to discard significant viewpoints for the sake of simplicity. There is no maximum or recommended length for an article on Misplaced Pages, but its possible the information could be organized better. See WP:SUMMARY. I've said before, if reliable sources have something to say about soldiers' motives or state of mind, that's important to include. It doesn't matter whether you believe that information does or doesn't justify the soldiers' actions. Rhoark (talk) 21:13, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Rhoark, if you were more involved, you would better understand the situation. The "soldiers' motives," that is, the stories and fear of infiltration, are included, clearly stated right off the bat in the Lead section, again in the next section, and again in the next. The issue is one of balance, "Undue Weight" in WP-speak: that is, the subsequent piling on of supposed examples of "refugee infiltration," two of which were false, a couple of others weakly sourced, an unnecessary exercise that turned the article into one as much about infiltration rumors as about the mass killing of villagers.

As for "significant viewpoints," no serious academic or journalist knowledgeable about No Gun Ri considers this deeply biased serial fabricator to be "significant." As for his "viewpoint," which will it be?...

• On his page 126, he writes of the NGR killings, "If they took place as described at all. ... the killings occurred in dozens and possibly hundreds of the small misfortunes that make war so horrible."
• Then, on pages 198-199, he says there was a mass killing and he alone has determined "the truth, supported by historical evidence," that is, his made-up scenario of mortar and small arms fire at NGR, and between a dozen to "slightly more" than two dozen refugees killed. (This from a guy who didn't even go to Korea and speak with witnesses.)
• In between, on page 151, he again denies NGR's confirmed reality, saying of a 19th-century massacre, "in the case of Wounded Knee, at least the event itself had occurred."

Or should we put in all the "viewpoints" from this sad, mindless book?

What's needed is help. Read in, read up, help out. Thanks. Charles J. Hanley 15:36, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

FYI

I've redacted part of your comment because of BLP concerns. — Strongjam (talk) 19:14, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Mark Bernstein

This has been brought to my attention. Please don't waste editors' time with fraudulent COI claims. Gamaliel (talk) 01:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I have no direct knowledge as to Mark Bernstein's actual business relationships; however, he stated unequivocally that he sought to establish such a relationship with the Warren campaign in 2012. That is, without a doubt, sufficient evidence for good-faith suspicion that a conflict of interest may exist. I have followed the advice and directions of WP:COI precisely by making a civil post on Mark Bernstein's talk page. Rhoark (talk) 02:32, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Roark says that I "stated unequivocally’ that I “sought to establish" a business relationship with Elizabeth Warren’s campaign. This is a deliberate lie. I wrote the following:

I think that Tinderbox would be a terrific tool for field organizers. I offered copies — as many as you need. Training? You got it. Want it non-disclosed to be sure I’m not a snake-oil charlatan? Fine.

In short, I offered what all campaign volunteers offer -- to use my personal abilities and professional skills and resources on behalf of the campaign. The passage cannot possibly be read as an unequivocal statement that I sought a business relationship: it describes an offer of service to a campaign that was eagerly seeking volunteers and which went on to become a new legend in Massachusetts politics. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:39, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

What are you after? I consider your response (the portions that are not ad hominem) to be sufficient to allay concerns. Unless someone else decides to take it to the COI noticeboard, I consider the matter resolved. However, if you continue to accuse me of lying, in order to defend myself I will need to elaborate in further detail why I found your statements problematic w.r.t. Misplaced Pages policy. I don't think you should be eager to go down that road. Rhoark (talk) 18:37, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

“Please, sir,” Mark said, “have some more rope!” MarkBernstein (talk) 19:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Put your skills to work!

Urgent Media Inquiry

@Rhoark: and @Gamaliel: Hi there Gamaliel. By way of introduction I am a UK blogger and journalist. No socking here - my real and pen name are shown clearly on my user page. I consider that you may have been too hasty and mistaken on policy when you warned Roark.

I recently wrote a series of articles about an ArbCom case in which a Misplaced Pages Administrator and CheckUser accused a prominent politician of sock puppeting and editing his own page. However it transpired that the administrator in question had been an unpaid volunteer for and supporter of a rival party. ArbCom removed the administrator's privileges, finding WP:COI.

My articles were the source of followups in every major UK publication and cited by Breitbart.

The ArbCom ruling sounds correct to me. Politicians usually have paid staff and volunteers. I do not see how a politician could escape CoI just by getting a volunteer to make changes. Even if the volunteer acted independently as in the ArbCom case, would the politician's opponents and rivals feel comfortable with an avowed supporter doing edits? ArbCom were pretty clear. I (and others) are very concerned about the failure to address WP:WikiBullying and other adverse issues associated with some editors. There are also concerns about the contact of some editors with the Guardian newspaper.

It looks to me like Rhoark was correct on policy. Gamaliel's enthusiasm for this topic may have strayed over the line - doubtless in good faith - into WP:WikiBullying so I invite Gamaliel to reconsider whether there is an issue here and whether in fact on mature reflection Gamaliel would like to apologise to Rhoark and withdraw the warning.

I will be producing a video on this topic soon and invite Gamaliel to get in touch via the email address on my blog so I can send him some questions I have. As I have observed, my work gets read by a lot of people.Vordrak (talk) 11:45, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I stand by my position that I consider the matter resolved, with respect to any possible financial incentive. There was apparently no business relationship between Eastgate and the Warren campaign. I am still displeased about the ad hominem attacks that have resulted from his unwillingness to accept that a reasonable person might conclude that he sought to establish such a relationship. I'm also disappointed he has framed this as a criticism of his political affiliations; those are entirely laudable. He should probably be cautious with his edits during the 2018 re-election season, as should any volunteer, but as long as edits are on the volunteer's own initiative that's a milder form of COI that I don't think policy requires to be burdened with all the formal processes outlined at WP:COI. This is my first foray into COI issues, and I'm not familiar with the ArbCom case you mention, so I'm certainly no expert, but this is my reading of the situation. Rhoark (talk) 15:30, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually Rhoark to cut and paste from WP:COI, Any external relationship – personal, religious, political, academic, financial, and legal – can trigger a COI. Being a supporter is not necessarily a problem but being a volunteer assisting a campaign is, certainly according to the policy as written. I respectfully think you should stick to your guns and have invited Gamaliel to reconsider his use of the word, 'fraudulent' in relation to the COI query. Vordrak (talk) 15:59, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I do not think it is appropriate to call my notification fraudulent. I have no plans to further any formal proceedings about either the COI or Gamaliel, but I don't think my status as the one having made the notification privileges my opinion or gives it any official status. Other editors may consider themselves affected parties. Rhoark (talk) 16:10, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Invitation

You might want to mosey on down to my contribution in User talk:Jimbo Wales and participate in my section. Vordrak (talk) 22:40, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Fringe

Hi Rhoark, it looks like you're caught in the policy (or guideline) tango: people ask for specific articles where the guideline is causing problems, and then pounce on you for allegedly trying to deal with those articles by modifying the guideline. It's all very familiar. Anyway, thanks for your willingness to discuss and explain your "fringe" position. I think this tiny overall change will be very useful. Departing significantly from the single leading theory should not be enough to call something "fringe". So I am satisfied with this and doubt much more is possible.Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:15, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

That's an improvement, but I think still leaves too much wiggle room to label a significant minority as fringe. I think "departs from" should be narrowed to "is incompatible with". Rhoark (talk) 15:09, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

@Anythingyouwant: I'm not sure its a good idea to have made that edit while discussion is ongoing. Rhoark (talk) 15:27, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

It seemed advisable to lock in uncontroversial incremental changes as we go along. If the proposal is to change from "depart" to "incompatible" then I am open to hearing arguments on that.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:15, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

May I ask for your input

I see you give third opinions and I'd like to ask you if you could take a look at this and give your opinion as to how those sources could be added to the article in a matter that keeps the article NPOV. Thanks. Jørgen88 (talk) 22:04, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Looking into it. Rhoark (talk) 22:16, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

It's not generally of encyclopedic interest when someone makes an ass of themselves on social media. The incident generated some interest in a few sources that could be considered reliable for some claims. They are, however, all sources with significant conservative biases and reputations for accuracy that would make me want to hold them at arms' distance. Essentially they just seemed happy to make hay of a liberal saying something dumb. It seems pretty clear the suggestion that people should commit suicide was facetious, though his later explanations show sincere commitment to some fairly divisive views on race. If his views on race were considered more generally noteworthy, this incident would be worth a sentence in a larger section. As it is, WP:NOTGOSSIP. Also, given some of the statements you've made about this, you would probably benefit from reconsidering your personal sources for daily news. Rhoark (talk) 23:11, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

But wouldn't you agree that the leftist liberal media (which is most of the MSM) ignoring this while jumping on the opportunity to criticize similar or more moderate comments by the other side of the political spectrum, is biased in itself? I personally like to read a diverse amount of news sources with different political leanings. Right now the article reads very much as WP:AUTO and/or WP:FANPOV which leads to WP:SOAP. Leaving out well sourced criticism will only make it more POV. Jørgen88 (talk) 23:50, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

There are also sources on the left that would behave similarly if the shoe were on the other foot. In such a case it might even be easier for the story to break into the mainstream. Doesn't really change the analysis where Misplaced Pages is concerned. Rhoark (talk) 00:06, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

By "analysis where Misplaced Pages is concerned" you mean that WP:NOTGOSSIP §3 is your main focus for not including it in the article? To me, the article currently looks more like a §4 violation, however, and §3 underscores WP:LIBEL, which clearly isn't an issue regarding the sources I have provided. The sources also looks like they satisfy the BLP requirements. But I have to admit, this is getting rather tiring and my experience on Misplaced Pages is that more and more users use exhaustion strategies and bold reversions to get their will, in which I have better things to do and will most likely yield. Thanks for your input though. Jørgen88 (talk) 00:38, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom and the Media

Arbitration can be quite opaque for outsiders, leaving an opportunity for fringe bloggers to sometimes have their views taken credulously. Thank goodness such a thing has never happened, especially not as concerns GGC. Nope. Not ever. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 15:31, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Arbcom Enforcement.

Hello, I see you stated that EllenCT was the filer and therefore had "first mover advantage." My understanding is that she was asked to cut and paste an ANI complaint that VictorD7 filed against her. Perhaps this doesn't change you views but I hope you don't mind my pointing that out here. Ciao. SPECIFICO talk 16:46, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

The clarification is appreciated, but my intent in that statement was only to warn against hasty conclusions. Rhoark (talk) 16:49, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually I was asked to take my report to AE. I was away at the time so EllenCT pounced on the opportunity to do it herself, hijacking the process by twisting it into a report against me, which, as Rhoark rightly points out, allowed her to reframe the issue and largely change the subject, sowing confusion among admins. VictorD7 (talk) 00:03, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diplomacy
	For your civil and reasonable responses to willful ignorance and hatefulness! Mracidglee (talk) 18:10, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	That huge compilation of sources on the GGC talk page is amazing, m8. Sad to see people dismissing it because they don't like what the sources are saying. Sethyre (talk) 19:07, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

The Lede and How to Swing It

Hi Rhoark, I noticed that you're working on a rewrite for some of the GGC article, and thought that (if you are not already aware of it) the essay WP:CREATELEAD might be useful in your endeavours. In suggesting this, I am not attempting to sway the balance in any way; I have not read the whole of the essay, only noticed that it seemed well received on the author's Talk page. Hope this helps. - Ryk72 05:57, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

@Ryk72: Thanks for the pointer, but the lede isn't where I'm looking at. I'm working from the base of the pyramid up. Rhoark (talk) 00:12, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Understood. FWIW, I think that you're taking a good approach in sorting out some longstanding issues; pretty much along the lines of the ArbCom recommended review of the article. The essay might come in handy down the track. - Ryk72 00:25, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

MEDRS

On another note, I'm a little concerned with some of the changes at Misplaced Pages:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine) which seem like they might be construed as "winning" a content dispute by changing policy & guidelines. Thoughts? - Ryk72 00:25, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

I responded over there. In short, that's what it looks like. Rhoark (talk) 01:14, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

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	You know why. sst✈ 00:06, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

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Vested contributors retitled Arbitration enforcement 2

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The RFC

Hi Rhoark, I dont think we have edited any of the same articles, but I could be wrong. I have closed a lot of RFC's as a NAC, its one of the things I like to do. The RFC is going to be very hard to close if editors do start to make choices. Its going to be long and complicated, and so will the close which isnt always good, look at the RFC above on the page and the discussion afterwards. All of the multi option RFC's I have seen to date with more than 4 or 5 options have ended in no consensus. Im not saying that the scope of MEDRS is or isnt overreaching in this section. I just suggest a few less options and a little narrower focused RFC. If that means cutting or combining in the current RFC or starting a new one I leave up to you. The topic of the RFC is a good one, and a RFC is needed. AlbinoFerret 14:12, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Just a suggestion, you might want to archive box the old section, or collapse it so it doesn't become a pint of distraction or editors commenting on it and not the new question. AlbinoFerret 19:40, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

I will make a decision on that 24 hours after the post where I solicited suggestions on refactoring. Rhoark (talk) 19:52, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good, it was just a suggestion. I think you did a great job on the new question and it will likely get a lot of good responses and make the job of the closer much easier and probably end with a good and simple closing statement. AlbinoFerret 19:58, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

It was actually CFCF who opened a new section. I'm displeased about the way in which he did so, though its not a bad RfC framing per se. It misses what I see as the locus of disupute, which has more to do with the purpose of MEDRS. Happily, discussion has gone in that direction anyhow. Rhoark (talk) 20:05, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	In appreciation of your ongoing hard work in all aspects and areas of Misplaced Pages. It takes courage and determination to not shy away from difficult issues. Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:10, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. That's a very nice way of saying I'm binging on wikifights today. Rhoark (talk) 04:16, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Hahaha! Sometimes it's necessary to spend a few days in the ring bloodying noses for Wikipedian "goodness and niceness instead of evil." Now that's a 'not the truth' that can hurt. Ouch! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:45, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

RfC

Reading this RfC and it seems a little to broad in scope to get a consensus.Wikipedia_talk:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)#RfC:_What_claims_are_governed_by_WP:MEDRS.3F

The argument appears to revolve around is "health information" a part of "biomedical information". I think a simpler RfC around that one specific wording issue would be more useful. Your thoughts? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:29, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

A recent comment at AE

In your post at AE, you suggested that one of the participants be placed under a 0RR. Can you tell me how you understand 0RR? That the person may not make any reverts at all? For example, if they rephrase a sentence for style, since it might remove existing words, it would count as a violation? The only edit guaranteed not to be a revert (under any interpretation) is one that adds brand-new material that has never been in the article before. Would you endorse that? EdJohnston (talk) 16:46, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: I consider a reversion to be something that can be broadly construed as returning a page to a prior state. I do not interpret every possible change to another editor's text as "undoing" that editor's action. However, a reversion would also not only be verbatim; it might for instance be a close paraphrase of a prior state. It also depends on what is actually the point of contention, if any. A stylistic change might be construable as a reversion if style is at issue. In the case at hand, the issue is the question of whether a source is reliable enough for BLP claims. It's specifically in the context of restoring challenged BLP material that I endorse 0RR for the editor. Rhoark (talk) 17:54, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

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Please remove your draft

It violates BLP. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 18:07, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Name a claim that violates BLP. Everything is cited to high-quality sources. Rhoark (talk) 18:33, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

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Arbitration enforcement 2 case closed

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1.1) The Arbitration Committee confirms the sanctions imposed on Eric Corbett as a result of the Interactions at GGTF case, but mandates that all enforcement requests relating to them be filed at arbitration enforcement and be kept open for at least 24 hours.

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Discuss this at: Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration enforcement 2 case closed

2016

	Happy New Year 2016!
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Nomination of R v. Elliott for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article R v. Elliott is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/R v. Elliott until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:22, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

GG draft page

Noticed you were making a draft of the whole shebang. Just letting you know that your draft so far is much more readable than what is currently in place. Keep up the good work. GamerPro64 21:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Arbitration evidence

Hi Rhoark.

Your evidence as the above link does not fall within the limited scope of the case as described on the evidence page.

Gamaliel's recent actions (both administrative and otherwise), especially related to the Signpost April Fools Joke. The case will also examine the conduct of other editors who are directly involved in disputes with Gamaliel. The case is strictly intended to examine user conduct and alleged policy violations and will not examine broader topic areas.

As the evidence presented is not within this scope it has been removed.

This has been carried out as a clerk action and should not be reverted with permission from the Arbitration Committee.

Amortias (T)(C) 13:04, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

April 2016

Your recent editing history at Vaxxed shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.
Your edits are going against the consensus both at the article talk page and at the RSN. Unless you can gain a consensus for this change, you should stop reverting other users' edits. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 17:30, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller's talk page

Why are you responding to me on Doug's talk page? Would you like it if you had to deal with two people arguing on your talk page?

You should have responded on my page or here, and pinged me, but don't clutter someone else's page by trying to turn it into another forum for argument.

For starters, when someone says something and you don't respond, that's ignoring it. Your reasons for ignoring it are irrelevant, and as you describe them on Doug's page, ignorant of the reasons I gave for keeping this (they're right there in the same comment, had you chosen to read and consider it before responding).

But I'll tell you what. You find me a case where " is a musician who..." or " is an actor who..." or more appropriately, is a criminal who..." or something like that, where a well-documented and obvious fact about a person is stated in order to contribute to a related point, and then that statement was struck from an article because the sourcing for "<nowiki> is an wasn't good enough, and I'll concede the fact that this is how things are done around here by default. At which point, the only thing left for you to do is to convince me that WP is somehow liable for including that statement (not exactly impossible, but I honestly don't know how you'd do it considering the facts), and you'll win the entire argument. As I've explained before, your insistence that you're being misunderstood is wrong. I fully understand you. I just disagree with you.

if you had said as much on the talk page I would have seen a way forward other than AE Well, first off: I did. You even posted a link to the diff where I did, and complained because I did (hint: CRYBLP is a form of wikilawyering). Second... Dunno if you've been paying attention or not, but the AE case isn't going the way you apparently expected it to. That tends to happen when you admit to starting a disagreement in order to teach someone a lesson. Not to mention the fact that you've guaranteed by your behavior that I'll never again respect you enough to take your advice as anything other than the complaints of an offended 20-something. So you've kind of shot yourself in the foot, there. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 13:08, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

@MjolnirPants: I replied where you were talking about me. Here is fine too. I'm trying to find common ground by which we can end this dispute, in which we have both misunderstood each other. Your points were not clear to me until you presented them to a third party you had not already pigeonholed as a fringe POV-pusher. I do not think you have understood my points either, despite your protestations that you do. I think what you most need to confront at this point is that the things you asked for as a compromise were delivered, or more accurately, never in jeopardy. The article clearly says that Andrew Wakefield is discredited, that the movie is propaganda, and that there is no link between autism and vaccines. I would not have it any other way. Your reading of the situation, that I started the disagreement to teach someone a lesson, is uncharitable. The disagreement preceded my involvement, and I hoped that by my involvement I could prompt not only article improvement but personal growth. You might find that arrogant and disrespect me as a result, but that's an outcome I can live with. Rhoark (talk) 13:25, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Your reading of the situation, that I started the disagreement to teach someone a lesson, is uncharitable. Wrong. It may be discrediting to you, but you can't call it uncharitable, because it's based on your own claims. You directly stated that your primary interest was in teaching me a lesson, more than once. The fact that you worded it a different way (only by spelling out what 'lesson' you intended to teach me) doesn't change that.

You might find that arrogant and disrespect me as a result, but that's an outcome I can live with. Allow me to (attempt to) teach you a lesson then: Going around assuming you know better and that you can teach random people how to be better is arrogant. When you attempt this by starting an argument with someone who represents a broad consensus, ignoring their attempts to settle it, misunderstanding most of what they're saying (or claiming to, anyways) and claiming they're misunderstanding you (despite them demonstrating repeatedly that they're not), it's not only arrogant, but also pretty incompetent. I'm not trying to insult you. Just take a step back, and think about the following hypothetical for a second.

Imagine I show up one day at Halotherapy and reverted this edit of yours, because it had to lower the bar for inclusion to get enough studies to review. You respond that the lowered bar was still perfectly fine. I respond that I read the review and it included case reports and animal testing (it doesn't, but for the sake of this hypothetical, let us assume it does), while WP:MEDRS says we can't rely on animal studies and case reports. You argue that yes, they were included in the review, but given little weight, and it's easy to see that the results excluding them were functionally the same as the results including them. I respond by claiming that you're not understanding me and MEDRS is very clear. I keep reverting your edit, while you and several others keep re-inserting it. Then I file an AE case against you, where I state clearly that the reason I went to that article in the first place was because I thought you were biased and acting like you owned the article, and I wanted to teach you how to edit properly.

Now imagine I did all of this after an editor who'd been contesting that edit was topic banned because of that same argument.

Do you see where I'm coming from? Do you see why the admin at AE has already stated he doesn't intend to sanction me, but is still deciding whether or not to sanction you? You seem think I have this knee-jerk skepticism bias and I'm cracking down on any possible fringe POV I see with way too much zeal, but that's demonstrably wrong. The lesson you're trying to teach me is one I learned years ago. Right now, this situation is a learning opportunity for you. I'd rather you did learn, but I'm here to edit an encyclopedia, not to teach you. It's on you to make that happen.

Finally, I think we're done here. As I said, I'm here to edit, not to engage in personal squabbles with people who apparently just don't like the cut of my chin. You may respond, of course, but don't expect me to. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 14:57, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm certainly arrogant. It's one of my more endearing qualities. The hypotheticals about Halotherapy aren't instructive, as neither of us would present those lines of argument. Nevertheless, this actual experience could not fail to be instructive for me as well, in terms of how editors might react to certain lines of argument. (As an aside, in your hypothetical case I would emphasize that MEDRS has no bright lines not found in WP:V and is primarily meant to avoid Misplaced Pages improperly becoming a source of personal medical advice. If that failed to gain consensus, I would be open to re-scoping the claim to emphasize the inadequacy of the evidence rather than the conclusions.) Rhoark (talk) 15:20, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Shall we chat?

Moving this here per AE limits... Jytdog (talk) 04:49, 27 April 2016 (UTC)