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::::I agree with Zaian. Your study is likely to suffer from significant ]. Also, telling people they are involuntarily taking part in a study is likely to influence their behaviour and further bias your results. In addition, telling people you disagree with that their words are being recorded has the potential to come across as ]. You may want to revise your approach if you do not wish your actions to be perceived in this way. ] (]) 21:04, 26 August 2016 (UTC) ::::I agree with Zaian. Your study is likely to suffer from significant ]. Also, telling people they are involuntarily taking part in a study is likely to influence their behaviour and further bias your results. In addition, telling people you disagree with that their words are being recorded has the potential to come across as ]. You may want to revise your approach if you do not wish your actions to be perceived in this way. ] (]) 21:04, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

:::::: Thank you for participating ]. ] (]) 11:26, 27 August 2016 (UTC)


== Deletion of information - systemic bias == == Deletion of information - systemic bias ==

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Misplaced Pages Primary School announcement

Hi everybody. On behalf of the teams behind the Misplaced Pages Primary School research project, I would like to announce that this article was selected a while ago to be reviewed by an external expert. We'd now like to ask interested editors to join our efforts and improve the article before March 15, 2015 (any timezone) as they see fit; a revision will be then sent to the designated expert for review. Any notes and remarks written by the external expert will be made available on this page under a CC-BY-SA license as soon as possible, so that you can read them, discuss them and then decide if and how to use them. Please sign up here to let us know you're collaborating. Thanks a lot for your support! --Elitre (WPS) (talk) 15:48, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good. Myself and the now retired User:Khazar2 were primarily responsible for pulling this article into shape and getting it GA status back in June 2013, although since then of course we have seen Mandela's passing and various further edits made to the page, some of which may have been a little detrimental (there is now far too much emphasis on the trivia surrounding Mandela's illnesses in his final years). Expert advice from an established academic would thus be very much appreciated. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your message, Midnightblueowl! I'm seeing some activity on the article - although nobody signed up for it so it's probably not related to my request above. If you know anybody who could be interested in helping our project, please don't hesitate to ping them. Best, --Elitre (WPS) (talk) 10:16, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I'm a little later than the 15 March deadline, but I am making a number of small improvements to the prose and referencing throughout the article, mostly to rectify problems that have arisen since the article passed GAN. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:09, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
Thank you anyway! We'll see how that compares to what the reviewer writes, then :) --Elitre (WPS) (talk) 14:15, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Review within the Misplaced Pages Primary School project

Hi all. As anticipated, some weeks ago Dr. Steven Friedman (Centre for the Study of Democracy, Rhodes University and University of Johannesburg) agreed to review this article within the scope of the project linked above. You can find his notes in the PDF I just uploaded to Commons. We'd like to thank Dr. Friedman for his work and for his helpful notes. We invite everybody to feel free to reuse the review to improve the article and/or to comment it here. Best, --Elitre (WPS) (talk) 10:06, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Hopefully I, and others, will be able to go through Dr. Friedman's points one by one at some point in the near future and make the necessary changes accordingly. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:04, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I've implemented some of the comments in the review. Some that I did not change:

  • "AB Xuma was not removed from the ANC Presidency by a vote of no confidence" - Sampson's biography claims he was.
  • "I can find no reference anywhere to the person ‘Noengland’" - I found a few references online to Noengland as Dalindyebo's wife.

There are lots more comments in the review that still need to be addressed. Zaian (talk) 19:57, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Friedman's comments

Here I'm going to list Friedman's comments, one by one, so that they can be discussed and potentially result in alterations. Hopefully that will make it easier to bring about the changes required. As I think Zaian makes clear above, we should however be clear about rushign to implement changes based on these comments, and should instead weigh them against other reliable, published sources. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:13, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

  • "The articles states as a fact that Mandela served on the central committee of the SA Communist Party – this is a claim rather than a fact."
    • The article no longer claims this as fact. Any mention of the SACP Central Committee has been removed from the lede and in the body of the article it only claims that the SACP now alleges that Mandela sat on its Central Committee. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:34, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
  • "He did not promulgate a new constitution – the constitution was the work of Parliament."
  • "AB Xuma was not removed from the ANC Presidency by a vote of no confidence – he was defeated in an election for ANC president."
  • "It is not strictly correct to say that Mandela ‘embraced dialectical materialism’ – he recalled that he found it useful but it is clear from the context that he also used other tools to analyse society."
  • "The M Plan was not revealed in a speech in 1953 read out by Andrew Kunene."
  • "The Freedom Charter was not solely drafted by Rusty Bernstein."
  • "The Charter was not ‘a key part of Mandela’s ideology’ – it was the policy of the ANC."
  • "I can find no reference anywhere to the person ‘Noengland’ who Mandela is said to have visited in September 1955."
  • "It is not an established fact that the apartheid government secretly funded Inkatha to attack the ANC – it is a claim."
    • This is the sentence referred to: "Utilising the army and right-wing paramilitaries to combat the resistance, the government secretly funded Zulu nationalist movement Inkatha to attack ANC members, furthering the violence.". I've changed "right-wing paramilitaries" to "vigilante groups" because it's more likely that this refers to the vigilantes who attacked UDF groups in Crossroads and elsewhere, not white right-wing paramilitary groups like the AWB. Regarding Inkatha, the reference (Sampson's biography) says "the Pretoria government had been systematically arming Zulu forces against the ANC", referring to 200 Inkatha soldiers who were trained in Caprivi in early 1986. The training in Caprivi with government backing is not disputed (Buthelezi referred to it in an article in 2013), but the direct link with the violence is disputed. I've changed the sentence to "The violence escalated as the government used the army and police to combat the resistance, and provided covert support for vigilante groups and for the Zulu nationalist movement Inkatha, which was involved in an increasingly violent struggle with the ANC." Zaian (talk) 19:58, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
  • "FW de Klerk did not release all ANC prisoners except Mandela – he released a select few before Mandela’s release."
  • "Most estimates put the attendance at Mandela’s 1990 Soccer City rally above 100 000 although no precise figure is available."
  • "Mandela did not unilaterally resume negotiations in September 1992 – he and de Klerk agreed to do this."
  • "The constitutional assembly which sat after 1994 did not give the National Party continuing influence."
  • "Thabo Mbeki was not a ‘young ANC leader’ at the time – he was a senior figure in the movement."
  • "Mandela and de Klerk did not convince Buthelezi to bring Inkatha into the election in 1994."
  • "That 750 000 whites emigrated in the 1990s is an estimate, not a fact."
    • The Sampson reference says that the number is impossible to verify, but it refers to a survey that found that 96% of emigrants cited crime, and 74% of skilled whites said they were ready to leave because of crime. Other references have widely varying figures. I've changed the sentence to avoid providing a number. Zaian (talk) 20:20, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
  • "Winnie Mandela was not asked to stand down from the ANC national executive for misappropriating funds."
  • "De Klerk did not withdraw from the government of national unity because the constitution was not being observed but because he felt his party was not being treated as an equal."
  • "Mandela did not ‘admit’ that Mbeki was de facto president – it was his idea that he should play this role."
  • "The claim that Mandela rejected capitalism is contradicted by articles he wrote at the time."
  • "The claim that his administration was ‘mired in scandal’ is odd given only one scandal attracted attention during his term of office."

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Nelson Mandela. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

checkY An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

☒N An editor has determined that the edit contains an error somewhere. Please follow the instructions below and mark the |checked= to true

Cheers.—Talk to my owner:Online 02:25, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Mandela Foreign Visit

It's regrettable that the article fails to mention that among Mandela's first state visits following his release, was a joint address to the Canadian House Of Commons and Senate in 1990, the first time in four decades a non-head of state was awarded such an honour. Former Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney was a staunch advocate of ending apartheid and sanctioning South Africa for it's oppression of the black majority. The article seems to re-write history by downplaying the importance of Canada's role in pressuring both the release of Mandela and the end to white minority rule in South Africa, and is highly insulting to the nation. Starzguy (talk) 05:02, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Please assume good faith - it's really not helpful to accuse anyone of insulting Canada. If you want to mention the significance of his address to the Canadian House of Commons, add it to the paragraph under Early negotiations: 1990–91 which includes a long list of supporting countries which he visited and addressed. But keep it brief and proportional, in line with the many other countries mentioned in this paragraph. The page is however semi-protected, so you can't edit until you have been registered for at last 4 days and made at least 10 edits elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. You can always suggest changes here though, for other editors to make on your behalf. Zaian (talk) 06:42, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Mandela visited a great many countries both prior to his presidency and during it; we mention very few of them here, because we are trying to keep the article concise and focusing on the most important points of his life story. It is best that we follow the example of the various biographies about Mandela that have been published (Meredith, Sampson, Lodge etc). If they mention his visit to Canada then it is probably worthy of a mention; if they don't then I would suggest that it isn't. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:06, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Ancestry section

In the interest of not starting an edit war, is there really any point in having an ancestry section which only lists Mandela's parents? This information is readily available elsewhere in the article, and is summarised in the infobox. What does this section add? Hpesoj00 (talk) 06:15, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

The section should be retained, as it can be and has in the past been expanded as previously noted here. It is difficult to add anything positive about this man to his article as it seems rigorously monitored by editors who gradually but invariably chip away at it to "cut Mandela down to size" (an implicit, though inadequate, tribute). FactStraight (talk) 15:07, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
Can you expand the tree then? My complaint is just that the section doesn't serve any purpose at the moment. If well cited, I fail to see how building a family tree could be controversial. As someone who knew very little about Mandela before reviewing this article, I feel that the article as it stands has a neutral tone, and if anything paints Mandela in a positive light. Hpesoj00 (talk) 03:23, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Hpesoj00 that any ancestry section should be fully and properly referenced and that it should include more than his just Mandela's parents. If such a properly produced ancestry chart is produced then I would certainly be happy to discuss its utility for this article here at the Talk Page; however, we really can't have the ultra-brief chart that was briefly added to the article several days ago. Moreover, as to FactStraight's claim that "editors" (presumably a reference to myself?) have been trying to "cut Mandela down to size", I would want to see some evidence of that before commenting further. If they feel that there is a serious issue with this article somehow denigrating Mandela then that might be something that we need to discuss. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:31, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

User:Part is now edit warring to add this section back in. They falsely accused me of vandalism because I removed it, adding that I have a systematic bias against Southern Africa because I live in Europe (apparently!). I have asked that they engage with us here at the Talk Page but they have thus far ignored my request. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:18, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I accuse Midnightblueowl of systemic bias.
The evidence being...? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:32, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Please see below. Part (talk) 10:34, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
All I'm seeing is accusations made without sufficient supporting evidence. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:36, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Anyway, let's drop the arguments about systemic bias, because that isn't helping the page. I'm annoyed that you made both that accusation and one of vandalism against me, because those are maliciously false, but let's just put that behind us and deal with the issues at hand. I'm certainly open to including information on Mandela's genetic ancestry; what I am asking for is better quality sources, which I believe probably do exist. If scientists have undertaken research into his genetic ancestry then surely they published that research, so where is the published report? Can you help me find it? Moreover, I would ask you to relent and allow the ancestry chart to be removed for now (read Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle; you were Bold with you addition, but it got reverted, you should have then taken it to the Talk Page, rather than just edit warring and throwing wild accusations about). An ancestry chart containing only Mandela and his parents is pointlessly short. If you can help come up with a fuller chart, and one that is fully referenced to good quality published sources, then I would be inclined to support it. Can we get some agreement on these issues? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:42, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Often those who have systematic bias do not realise it. Credible references have been provided, however you insist on deleting factually correct neutral information that enhances the article and insist on Western standards of credibility i.e. peer-reviewed journal. Please also see. I might contact you privately if you like to get socio-demographic variables like your age-group, ethnicity, etc because I am studying systemic bias on Misplaced Pages. You will remain totally anonymous of course. Part (talk) 10:52, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
I prefer to remain totally anonymous from other editors, but I wish you well with your study (which I believe will be important). Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:58, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Anyway, I have said that I am okay with the information on Mandela's genetic material remaining in the article. I would like to see the claims bolstered with the scientific report, if possible, whether peer-reviewed or not (peer-reviewed journals are hardly a Western-only standard of credibility, however). What is really at issue here is the unreferenced, scanty ancestry chart. 11:00, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Please also see oral citations experiment. Part (talk) 11:07, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Let's keep on topic, Part. We are not here to discuss the validity of indigenous ways of knowing and oral culture vis a vis Misplaced Pages. We are here to discuss this particular Ancestry section on the Nelson Mandela article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:09, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
That is part of the topic and part of the reason Mandela's grandparents are not on the ancestry chart. And the wider issue of systemic bias. Thanks for your participation. Part (talk) 11:14, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
If we don't know Mandela's ancestry beyond that of his parents then there is really no point in having an ancestry chart, is there? You were Bold in adding it (which is fine), but because it was contentious it has been removed and you have not won support for its re-inclusion here at the Talk Page (which you have to do if you want it included, see WP:BRT). You can't just edit war to keep it in the article; that is not how Misplaced Pages works. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:18, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for your participation. Part (talk) 11:21, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
So you're trying to shut down the discussion when it becomes clear that you're the one contravening Misplaced Pages policy? Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:23, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Happy to discuss. I have obtained the data I need for my systemic bias research. If you like, you can remove the chart but not the genetic information (you can if you like). Part (talk) 12:15, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

{{Admin help}} Please may you comment on Midnightblueowl. See above correspondence. Part (talk) 08:26, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. I shall remove the chart for now. I am of course happy to discuss its reintegration back into the article if it can be expanded and fleshed out with proper sourcing. I am happy to leave the information on Mandela's genetic ancestry in the article, however I think that it really would be improved if we can find a publication by the scientific team who carried out that research. I worry about whether "SouthAfrica.info" is a WP:Reliable Source or not, because it describes itself as "Brand South Africa's information gateway to South Africa". It is a tourist website. If we have news websites reporting this same information (and we do) then those would be Reliable Sources, but I still think it would be great to add that scientific report in as a citation if possible; that will be the best quality source according to Misplaced Pages's policies. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:50, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

  • An administrator is not needed to identify the fact that an ancestry chart showing Mandela and his parents and nothing else is unhelpful. Midnightblueowl is doing the right thing by removing it, and the baseless commentary about systemic bias above is irrelevant for Misplaced Pages where issues must be resolved based on policy, not on one person's opinion of another. A further illustration of the irrelevancy is that even if it could be established that an editor had a systemic bias, the question would still remain regarding whether their proposed edit should be made. Johnuniq (talk) 10:37, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Johnuniq for participating. Part (talk) 11:08, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
I too was against it. It was discussed with me before and the consensus somehow came Retain!VarunFEB2003 11:42, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
I declare once again that I'm conducting research on systemic bias on Misplaced Pages with the goal of improving certain aspects. Anything written will be fodder for the qualitative analysis. Part (talk) 12:24, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Please note that {{cot}} {{cob}} shouldn't be used in articles (no collapsing) VarunFEB2003 15:46, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

@Part: Your "I declare once again..." statement above (diff) sounds like some kind of threat. Please retract that immediately—there must be no suggestion that editors following policy should be subjected to some kind of creepy scrutiny by a self-appointed righter of great wrongs. If you do not intend the comment as a threat, please clarify its purpose—why is it on this talk page? Johnuniq (talk) 02:56, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

@Johnuniq it is not a threat, please see my talk page. I am conducting an ongoing study on systemic bias. The research protocol specifies that I must make this clear. Part (talk) 12:31, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Well, it certainly quacks like a threat. Being belligerent and using the response as "fodder for your qualitative research on systemic bias" is not a good research methodology, Part. Zaian (talk) 10:40, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for participating Zaian. Part (talk) 18:06, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Zaian. Your study is likely to suffer from significant selection bias. Also, telling people they are involuntarily taking part in a study is likely to influence their behaviour and further bias your results. In addition, telling people you disagree with that their words are being recorded has the potential to come across as passive aggressive. You may want to revise your approach if you do not wish your actions to be perceived in this way. Hpesoj00 (talk) 21:04, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for participating Hpesoj00. Part (talk) 11:26, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Deletion of information - systemic bias

(refactored from User talk:Part) Midnightblueowl deleted ancestry information from Nelson Mandela that s/he believes is fairly trivial although other page(s) on Misplaced Pages have this information. This is very likely systemic bias. I reverted the edit. Part (talk) 22:15, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Ok... please use the {{admin help}} template you need the help of an administrator. Mkdw 00:08, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
It's an unreferenced ancestry chart that only mentions Mandela's two parents and no one else in his family. In its current state it's really bad, although has the potential to be improved if done properly. There is already a Talk Page discussion open to debate the merit of such a chart. Rather than edit warring to add this controversial section in to the article, I would ask Part to engage with the Talk Page discussion, which they have not at present done. That would be the appropriate way to go about things and would allow us to build constructively on their concerns. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:24, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Midnightblueowl did not only delete the chart. S/he deleted referenced scientific ancestry information and perhaps fails to recognise that Mandela came from a culture with predominantly oral transmission of ancestry information precluding detailed written knowledge of his grandparents. Besides, the body of the article supports the information in the chart with solid references. Also Midnightblueowl creates the impression I have not engaged in debate on the merits of such a chart. I have here ancestry section and the consensus was the chart was appropriate. I contend that systemic bias is at play. Part (talk) 09:55, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Hmm.. that information was cited to an article in SouthAfrica.info, which doesn't look like a top quality source. If we had an article in a peer-reviewed journal discussing the same information (which may be the case) then I would be happy to include information on Mandela's genetic ancestry. Anyway, we already do have a section on Talk:Nelson Mandela devoted to this issue, so why not come discuss it there? There's really not much point having a separate discussion here on your own User Talk Page. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:49, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Moreover, I was the one who added all of the "solid references" that you refer to into the article in the first place! Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:50, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Also the Misplaced Pages article on List of haplogroups of historic people lists the same information that Midnightblueowl has again reverted and says is not from a top quality source although the information was broadcast on South African national TV by prominent scientists and is extensively referenced. I now see from Midnightblueowl that she is from Western Europe. I thus continue gathering data on systemic bias (see above) and will revert her edit. Part (talk) 10:06, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
What the hell? You accuse me of some racial or geographical bias against Southern Africa because I insist on using good quality sources in the Nelson Mandela article? What utter nonsense. I've told you on multiple occasions that I removed that section because a) much of it is too basic and unreferenced, and b) the other bit links to a website that may not be a reliable source. I've pointed out to you that this is an issue being discussed over at Talk:Nelson Mandela and invited you to contribute there, but you have ignored my suggestion. Instead you have continued to edit war and here you falsely accuse me of vandalism. You are way out of line here, Part. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:16, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Precisely Midnightblueowl, I accuse you of systemic bias. Your world view is that "If we had an article in a peer-reviewed journal..." and you fail to tolerate any other credible view point/information source. All the information you deleted is perfectly true as highlighted by the links I provided. Part (talk) 10:23, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
South Africa has peer-reviewed journals, Part... What I ask for is that when discussing scientific issues, we use scientific publications (i.e. peer-reviewed journals) as opposed to online news services which so often pervert the information presented by scientific researchers. (and that goes as much for Southern African news services as it does for European, Asian, American ones etc). Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:26, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
List of haplogroups of historic people, which includes Nelson Mandela has four credible references. Part (talk) 10:31, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm not going to debate this here any more. Take it to Talk: Nelson Mandela. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:44, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Midnightblueowl. I have taken it there. Part (talk) 10:54, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Part You currently have three admin help requests open about the same subject. Centralize it at Talk:Nelson Mandela and in only one section to avoid WP:ADMINSHOP/venue shopping. Mkdw 16:14, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Mkdw Ok thanks. Part (talk) 19:41, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

democratic socialism

the sources for nelson mandela being a "democratic socialist" do not contain this information or even these words. this is a revision of history. Nelson Mandela was a communist, anyone with any basic history or political science background knows this. Note: democratic socialist, social democracy are two distinct things. Communism in early 20th c. was also used interchangeably with "social democracy", which over time has taken on new meaning. "democratic socialism" is something quite distinct. anyhow. I have found the source for Mandela's "democratic socialism" which only contains the word "democratic" 3 times. Here is the book (type it in for yourself, also type in communism): https://books.google.ca/books?redir_esc=y&id=XYgRAQAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=democratic

I suspect the additional source is similarly misrepresented, as at least one of the editors on here has taken issue with mandela being represented as a communist, and prefers to place him under the recently fashionable umbrella of "democratic socialism".AnieHall (talk) 07:57, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

"Mandela was a communist, anyone with any basic history or political science background knows this". What? This is just a fringe theory that was popular among right-wing and pro-apartheid circles but with very little support beyond that, and certainly it isn't the view articulated in the Reliable Sources. Mandela was a democratic socialist. He desired to see a socialist society, as described in the Freedom Charter, and on taking power helped to fashion South Africa into a liberal democracy, not a communist state. That isn't to say that he wasn't influenced by Marxist ideas because he clearly was, and he was for a short time a member of the South African Communist Party, but his abiding allegiance was always to the ANC. This of course complicates things, but given that he didn't govern in a manner akin to Marxist-Leninist regimes means that there seems little reason to call him a communist. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:31, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
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