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:::::::::::You either didnt read or are being deliberately misleading. No one has defended using Mema in this discussion (ironic given your unapologetic use of the wildly racist Cassavetes). In fact Ktrimi was the one who removed him. On the other hand, how can you defend your reliance on far-left "journalism" that vomits out wild anti-Western conspiracy theories?--] (]) 18:43, 31 December 2017 (UTC) :::::::::::You either didnt read or are being deliberately misleading. No one has defended using Mema in this discussion (ironic given your unapologetic use of the wildly racist Cassavetes). In fact Ktrimi was the one who removed him. On the other hand, how can you defend your reliance on far-left "journalism" that vomits out wild anti-Western conspiracy theories?--] (]) 18:43, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::Let me remind you that the one that used Cassavetes was you (can't understand why you accuse me on that). Also about Mema let me remind you that you found him reliable about Melani ]. It would be very weird to dismiss Diplomatique (which isn't the only map that defines the Greek area) because of "Bill Landen claims" made against other authors of this newspaper, while at the same time defending the use of ultranational journalist with connections to ISIS sympathizers such as Mame. Apart from this, you proposed to add in your map areas about populations that identified as Greeks. May I ask if this still an active proposal?] (]) 18:59, 31 December 2017 (UTC) :::::::::::Let me remind you that the one that used Cassavetes was you (can't understand why you accuse me on that). Also about Mema let me remind you that you found him reliable about Melani ]. It would be very weird to dismiss Diplomatique (which isn't the only map that defines the Greek area) because of "Bill Landen claims" made against other authors of this newspaper, while at the same time defending the use of ultranational journalist with connections to ISIS sympathizers such as Mame. Apart from this, you proposed to add in your map areas about populations that identified as Greeks. May I ask if this still an active proposal?] (]) 18:59, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::I used Virgili's stats inside Cassavetes pamphlet. Virgili is not Cassavetes. You on the other hand used the racist propagandist Cassavetes to make a statement about population sentiment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Special:MobileDiff/791211498 . Its ok, we all make mistakes, and i assume it was one. Ive talked ages about how ridiculius the defamatory ISIS claims about Mema are (for starters hes Christian!), but I prefer less emotive books to his journalistic style. <u>Additionally, my support for the use of Mema was for simple facts like the date of Melani's death which I didnt think would be fabricated, nothing else-- but in hindsight I admit that might have been a mistake-- we both make them.</u> Enough with the ]. Yes my proposal to include a statement about sentiment on the side is still active.--19:13, 31 December 2017 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::I used Virgili's stats inside Cassavetes pamphlet. Virgili is not Cassavetes. You on the other hand used the racist propagandist Cassavetes to make a statement about population sentiment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Special:MobileDiff/791211498 . Its ok, we all make mistakes, and i assume it was one. Ive talked ages about how ridiculius the defamatory ISIS claims about Mema are (for starters hes Christian!), but I prefer less emotive books to his journalistic style. <u>Additionally, my support for the use of Mema was for simple facts like the date of Melani's death which I didnt think would be fabricated, nothing else -https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Special:MobileDiff/792946528 -- but in hindsight I admit that might have been a mistake-- we both make them.</u> Enough with the ]. Yes my proposal to include a statement about sentiment on the side is still active.--19:13, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::The non-Albanian character of such communities: bilingualism, mixed ancestry, self identification etc. is an essential feature for a map about "traditional presence of non Albanian communities" and should be portrayed in the correspondent areas of this map. I'm glad you understand this fact.] (]) 19:26, 31 December 2017 (UTC) :::::::::::::::::The non-Albanian character of such communities: bilingualism, mixed ancestry, self identification etc. is an essential feature for a map about "traditional presence of non Albanian communities" and should be portrayed in the correspondent areas of this map. I'm glad you understand this fact.] (]) 19:26, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::The map should portray facts-- language, religion-- not analyses ("true nationality", etc...). I'm fine adding a statement that some non-Greek speakers identified as Greek. I'm not fine saying all Orthodox on the South diddid which would have Veqilharxhi, the Qiriazis, Mitko, Hoxhi, Melani, Sotiri, some of the Frasheris and so on as all "Greek" which is absurd.--] (]) 19:43, 31 December 2017 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::::The map should portray facts-- language, religion-- not analyses ("true nationality", etc...). I'm fine adding a statement that some non-Greek speakers identified as Greek. I'm not fine saying all Orthodox on the South diddid which would have Veqilharxhi, the Qiriazis, Mitko, Hoxhi, Melani, Sotiri, some of the Frasheris and so on as all "Greek" which is absurd.--] (]) 19:43, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

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Ranked 6 by literacy rate?

International rankings section claims rank 6 by literacy rate without any citation, Education sector claims 98.7% literacy rate with a valid citation. Bit of a contradiction there, a citation needed situation for sure.

Pepper

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change ((pepper))s to ((Capsicum|peppers)) Ppwest (talk) 16:37, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Done SparklingPessimist 17:36, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

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In the third paragraph, please change "In the late twelfth century, Charles of Anjou conquered the Albanian..." to "In the late thirteenth century, Charles of Anjou conquered the Albanian..." because Charles of Anjou conquered the Albanian territories and was proclaimed king in 1272 which is in the thirteenth, not the twelfth, century C.E. Thank you Ppwest (talk) 16:27, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Done ToThAc (talk) 15:26, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

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Demographic section

Is it able to remove all those informations, which is mostly only about the 2011 census, and replace them into a new article or maybe within a new section within the "Demographics of Albania", because the Demographics section in "Albania" is very confusing and informs only about the census and not about (very little) the population of Albania.

Thanks! :)

No, absolutely not. Khirurg (talk) 18:23, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Calm down

Regarding the religious demographics as per the 2011 census

There are some serious issues regarding the religious demographics of Albania as presented by the 2011 census. The threefold decrease of the orthodox community can be only an artificial one , and the evangelicals/protestants are greatly underreported. The empirical data is clearly pointing towards to a census manipulation. Per example only 1 protestant church in Tirana is having around 6000 followers on its facebook page which is more than the total percentage given for the evangelicals/protestants in the 2011 census for the whole Albania , there are around 30-40 protestant churches in Tirana alone and many of them have followers in excess of 2000 people. The orthodox community as per the 2011 census appears to have decreased by an impossible 300 % when the catholics per example have the same percentage vis a vis the last census where religion was included ... thus this alone should show that this is not a pan christian phenomenon. The orthodox church has officialy denied to recognize the census , and some days prior to its publication there were reports in the media alluding to the fact that the religious composition of the country was different from its muslim majority legacy. Anecdotal evidences ( such as how big the masses are for easter ) show a more than twofold dominance of the orthodox community vis a vis the catholic one ... this suggests a more than (2 x 10.08 % = 20.16 % ) percentage as of the total population of Albania. I am writting this as an intro which will serve our discussion in producing a consensus , sources will be presented in the following comments. Given the magnitute and the divergence of the 2011 census percentages compared to reality it is only logical that these issues get the merited attention in the demographics section. Gjirokastra15 (talk) 09:45, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Do you have a Reliable Source that disputes the official census numbers?50.111.33.130 (talk) 17:19, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
Regarding both the Bektashi and Orthodox percentages, there is a whole host of sources discussing how the number is much lower than it should be. These are on this page currently, and elsewhere. While there is less discussion of this, the same is true of atheists, and there was the odd fact that the preliminary results showed 70% not declaring a religion, but somehow this changed when the final results were results were released drastically to only 16%. It should be noted however that is true that populations of Bektashi and Orthodox origin are more secularized than Sunni and Catholic populations (see Irreligion in Albania for details on this), because there are more irreligious people in the South of Albania than the North. As for the Catholics, the Catholic church does not dispute the results, nor do any other sources for the Catholics that I'm aware of. Also, this is plain OR from me, but it is easy to find Albanians who are not Muslim but know that is how they were counted on the census because of their last names (some Christians have Muslim last names due to either mixing or Ottoman times, and many people of all backgrounds are in fact atheist)-- one atheist miscounted as a Muslim (I'm not talking about myself) edits this wiki, in fact.--Calthinus (talk) 18:17, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
I added the opinion of a European Council report which criticizes the census results and the Gallup poll from 2016 to give e better picture of the religious situation in Albania. I should also mention that the Albanian Catholics openly criticized the results. The 2011 census is widely contested, so I think we should use other sources is possible. Vargmali (talk) 10:08, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Thought i would to the mix that during the later part of the communist era, the Orthodox in comparison to other religious communities in Albania had a lower birth rate (Clayer, p. 6 ) and also that a sizable part of the community permanently emigrated to Greece. Older generations that made up the community are also passing away. Also conversion rates to Orthodoxy by Muslims has been debatable inside and outside Albania, -due to the authenticity of their conversions being viewed by traditional Orthodox believers and even among those who are doing the converting as for mainly purposes of gaining access to the Greek market (Kretsi -there is more sources on this, for now it will do as i have other stuff to do at the moment). Best.Resnjari (talk) 14:28, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
There is nothing to suggest that only the orthodox have emigrated, and according to INSTAT there are no significant differences in the TFR (total fertility rate ) throughout the country. In fact the vast majority of those that emigrated to Greece belong (nominally) to the muslim faith , my family included - although myself i identify as an evangelical -. Gjirokastra15 (talk) 18:19, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Muslims have migrated in sizable numbers and that is accounted for in scholarship. With the Orthodox toward the latter part of the communist era their numbers shrunk somewhat due to the birthrate vis a vis the other religious communities and coupled with post-1992 migration resulted in a more quicker decline. This decline was sort of evident even in the census done right after WW2 which Czekalski cites (p.120) "The census of 1945 showed that the vast majority of society (72%) were Muslims, 17.2% of the population declared themselves to be Orthodox, and 10% Catholics." It was already down by 3% from the usual touted number of 20%. In a 2015 study by Miller and Johnstone they cited a figure of 13,000 people in Albania who were from a Muslim background that had converted to Christianity. Their study did not state though which Christian denominations they had converted to. Even so 13,000 during the post-communist era (and some that converted to access the Greek work market) is not big as often many of the people live in urban centres where communities dominate religious numbers resulting in little impact or them permanently migrating. The main rise has been those not declaring a religion (whether its due to them doing so as a protest against the census that time for they said was patriotic like reasons or them being actually irreligious). There are a few other issues with the census. Many places that did not declare a religion in Albania were places that traditionally had a Muslim population like the mountainous interior of Kurvelesh or parts of Mallakster, Cermenike in the north etc. Most areas known for having had a traditional population of Orthodox did declare in the census, as did the Catholics. So its complicated, some religious communities have not come to terms with demographic declines of past decades and have reacted differently vis a vis society which also holds its own views. Next census if similar results are borne out then porbably then can the 2011 results have some more backing. Calthinus has done a whole heap of maps that show that data from the census and can be compared to previous data. Best.Resnjari (talk) 18:48, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Yeah I should add, a lot of the areas that had low rates of responses were "Muslim" but these (except for Gramsh) were almost always Bektashi areas. Cermenika was traditionally heavily Bektashis, Mallakastra also a Bektashi stronghold along with Halvetis; Kurvelesh proper (the municipality not the ethnographic region which is more Bektashi) is more Halveti but it actually had a high rate of religious responses, not a low one. There is a long-running pattern where Bektashi areas, being 15-25% of the country in teh early 1900s, had either large numbers of nonreligious responses or "Muslim" ones, so that the only "Bektashi" dominated areas were in the historically practically 100% Bektashi Skrapar and a couple municipalities around Bulqiza which is also a stronghold. Elsewhere the decline in Bektashis is tremendous, going down to 2% nationally. Of course there are possible explanations for this but still the criticism leveled on the census by Bektashis has been pretty salient. As for the Catholics personally I can't see any area (did tons of maps) that I can point to and recognize a decrease but that's my OR, if the Catholics criticized it too, sure I guess it goes on the page. As for the Orthodox, a lot of them acknowledge issues like that but the birth rate issue is not really a huge difference and it's more regional than religious- the Northeast which is mostly Muslim (and some Catholics and Bektashis) has birthrates slightly above replacement (parts of Catholic Lezhe probably do too), but the rest of the country, including the center where the overwhelming majority of Muslims actually live, has below replacement birthrates. On a regional basis the Orthodox do also have some basis to their complaints-- Albanian media has pointed out the mysterious disappearance of large numbers of people from Orthodox-heavy Myzeqe, and polls of Orthodox believers in urban centers (where most live) showed that the majority weren't even contacted. Of course its' also fair to note that Orthodox and Bektashis, as southerners, are more secularized than (Sunni) Muslims and Catholics so part of the loss of their numbers can be traced to the growth of irreligion especially among the young -- but this can't explain the reports of many people not even being contacted.--Calthinus (talk) 19:07, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Many people declared they were not contacted and many of them just lied. Many took part on the orchestrated circus that is repeated every time something important happens in Albania. The census had some problems but was generally successful in showing the situation of population in Albania. The Orthodox in Albania are as many as census showed or probably something less. Many religious people were not contacted, many atheists were incorrectly counted as religious people, and many public personalities asked common people to not declare their religion. The problems of census were mostly not caused by gov but by some certain religious institutions who can not accept that numbers of their followers are shrinking and some public figures who wanted to gain some more minutes on TV by making false misrepresentations of process. I want to remind editors that this website is not intended to serve as a forum and the person who opened this discussion is the same one who blamed problems of Albania on Muslims some time ago. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:34, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
I suggest that you focus your energies on enriching the article of ISIS & kosovo ( as shown by your contributions history ) , rather than making non based accusations. This section of wikipedia serves by default as a forum where editors discuss about certain things that are relevant to the article of Albania. Gjirokastra15 (talk) 20:25, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
@Gjirokastra15, we have had in past times some uncomfortable conversations about religion (i don't want to rehash all that -but others may have seen it, as they have commented on my talkpage hence their view). From time when those comments were said on my talkpage i am of the view of let bygones be bygones. As editors here lets just focus on making the Albanian wiki project better and getting rid of some of the POV lingering around still. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:15, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Gjirokastra15 Whoa, this discussion is going in a bad direction. Normally I don't think FORUM is more than a misdemeanor, but like maybe we should put the brakes on this one. It's not a good idea to bring up ISIS, Gjiro, as no one talked about ISIS here and it isn't really relevant to Albania in any way except histrionics. At the very best, people will misinterpret what you said and think you hate Muslims, and I recommend you clear that up immediately. Also my apologies to Ktrimi991 as I have (like.... pretty much every one else here, to be fair) violated WP:FORUM, guilty as accused. We all have our own personal POVs and that's all fine and good and I respect everyone else here, though I don't agree with anyone but myself. As for the page all we can report is that... well, literally every major community, including even the Muslims and Catholics, has challenged the census and atheist groups have taken issue with it as well. That's all we can say, all the weighing is speculation and sources on how many Albanians of Muslim descent converted to Orthodoxy in Greece, birthrates etc etc should go on other pages as this is the country page and religious demographics is a small part. --Calthinus (talk) 21:26, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Hello there Resnjari! My comment was about the the whole conduct of the census, and not just about Orthodox numbers. The census was plagued by massive issues from simple infrastructure to the conduct of the census takers. We have reports of people not being asked about contacted at all by the census takers, the census takers not asking the religion or even filling out the questions themselves. On a personal note, most atheist/irreligious people I know were counted as religious since they would be asked "Are you a Christian/Muslim?" as if the option of being irreligious or another religion did not exist. Also and in many cases they reported receiving a hostile response by the census takers when they would say atheist. As for the Orthodox now, it is true they had a lower birthrate then the Muslims and emigration hitting them harder, the issue of conversion to Orthodox Christianity is not debated about it actually happening. Particularly Albanians form "Muslim background" (a term I find problematic for post-Communist Albanians) who immigrated to Greece were prone to convert for a number of reasons, including social pressure. The practice is so widespread that people like even the Metropolitan of Elbasan, Andon Merdani and Miron Çako, an important theologian are from this background. One thing one should also consider is that the Orthodox Church demands conversion from the spouses if they are of another religion and want a church wedding, so just by this alone the number of Orthodox tend to be higher. Even if their conversions would be not honest, they still would figure in the numbers. Another thing of note was the anti-Anastas campaign by the "Red And Black Alliance" (Aleanca Kuq e Zi) which might have promoted many nationalist Orthodox Albanians to refuse to declare religion. But as I said, the issue is not the Orthodox, since even the Catholics and the Bektashis have criticized the census results. Vargmali (talk) 18:31, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
@Calthinus, @Vargmali the lines between Bektashi and Sunni has blurred somewhat due to both sides not adhering much to traditional practices of their Muslim denominations that caused it to be more visible in the past + intermarriage. Though considered separate some Bektashi do consider themselves in a generic sense as Muslims. The the higher birthrate for Muslims has come from the north-east, the less integrated ones -Clayer goes into this (see that article link i posted above). Yes there where sizable discrepancies with certain areas like Myzeqe that is populated by Orthodox settlements, but the same case can be made of areas that have Muslims, but the idea that there has been a massive rise in Orthodox numbers is not borne out. 13, 000 is the main number of converts from Islam to Christianity. That is divided among evangelical groups and the Orthodox church though Catholic missionaries have been proselyting among Muslims too. In areas of southern Albania from the Korca zone up until the Bregdet zone, numbers have fallen of villagers residing there (i.e migration to Greece -many permanent -in monographs by Winifrith and Nitsiakos both refer to the depopulation process of the area), and much of those contained the Orthodox population in Albania. Only the next census will bear out what discrepancies the 2011 census had as the EU will make it a precondition that Albania conducts a census to EU standards. Until then, if academics have done studies and other reliable academic data etc they are our best attempt at kind of getting some picture of what has happened with regards to religious demographics post 1992. The best thing we can do for now is to just keep an eye out for when such data is published and available and then we can make edits. Best.Resnjari (talk) 19:47, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
The number of villagers has fallen dramatically throughout the whole country, the country being on the process of urbanization. Only in the period 2009-2013 133,544 immigrants, mainly from Greece and Italy, returned to Albania. INSTAT reports that 70.8% of migrants came from Greece and 23% from Italy. Thus their emmigration is not permanent in nature and certainly there is no correlation between religious affiliation and reason of emigrating to Greece , rather it is of economic nature and irrespective of religious affiliation. It is important to highlight the fact that prior to 1990 Albania was the most isolated country on this planet thus no Albanian could leave the country. The 2011 census claims that the orthodox community has fallen by a rate which is 30x times higher than the rate of reduction of the muslim community which simply said is pure insanity to any mind that understands the most basic notions of the science of statistics. Gjirokastra15 (talk) 21:21, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
They have left though migration has affected the Orthodox disproportionately more then the rest. After the WW2 they had already gone from 20% from the census of the Zog yeas to 17% in 1945. The Enver years had integration, etc resulted in a birthrate that was not on par with the other communities. That Enver disliked Ghegs and all Catholics in Albania and Muslims up north belonged to that subgroup meant less integration and higher birthrate (Clayer goes into this). But i am not going to entertain ideas that there is some conspiracy that happened in 2011 in the census. Poor training of census takers and incompetence were the main culprits. The Orthodox Albanian community is represented in government, we have had people in high positions and leaders of the country controlling the levers of power post 1992. Even now much of Rama's cabinet is Orthodox (with him being Orthodox now Catholic). Census takers were Orthodox while others came from different religions. If something dodgy on a mass scale occurred, it would have been revealed from within -especially post Berisha. Well anyway, if or when there are studies published we should all just keep an eye out for them, its the best we can do in such circumstances. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:44, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
I would not put that much faith on the 13.000 conversion study, since it seems likely they focused only on the Evangelical/Protestant groups. Also I will have to say that because of partisan politics and party loyalty (related to the spoils system that keeps many families afloat) transparency becomes harder. Also the government saying openly that the census was manipulated in favor of one or another religious group could cause religious tensions. Another thing of note is that we have no explanation at all how it went from 70% undeclared (the preliminary census result) to only 13% in the final results. So based on the preliminary results the undeclared/non-religious would be more hit than all other groups. But yes, the best thing we could do is focus on finding newer sources. Vargmali (talk) 15:37, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Hi Vargmali ! The preliminary results usually refer to a sample of data shown early by the government of where the census was undertaken not the whole thing. On the 13, 000 number, its from an academic study published in the West that gives figures outside what the government and religious organisations claim to be the "real" figure of their flocks. One thing in this whole census matter is that though census numbers are disputed due to the problems of the process, there is a tendency to place trust in Orthodox or Bektashi numbers from their religious organisations as being factual or "reliable" by some quarters in Albania etc. There is nothing out there to point that their numbers stack up as well, especially with the Orthodox whose numbers -due to a falling birthrate were in decline from many decades ago, yet alone post 1992 migration to Greece as well. In relation to the Orthodox church etc they have claimed that their numbers are from the 400, 000 mark up to at times 700,000 ! That does not make sense at all. Either so many Muslims converted to Orthodoxy or the Orthodox have a very high birthrate and migration never happened. Unless there is actual data to show that it is the case for each or all of those 3 scenarios, i take with a grain of salt the claim that large scale authentic conversions occurred. On the Bektashi, most live in the south, were integrated into the system under Enver and their birthrate went down to the one to two kids. When i was writing the Islam in Albania articles etc i am came across studies that noted that Bektashi practices had to large extent been forgotten (due to Enver's anti-religion campaign). That some Bektashi identified generically as Muslims in the census then should come as no surprise. Sunni's a; that time voiced little on this apart from despair etc. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:04, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Resnjari, if the preliminary results are so drastically different from the actual results this casts a massive shadow over the whole census. One can't wash a away a 57% difference from the census. Also, the 13.000 number to me seems rather dubious to include the Orthodox and the Catholic conversions, since they coincide very well with the numbers of Evangelical/Jehovah Witness groups. Now the Church says that 700.000 are members based on the baptism records, which even if they were correct (we can't verify that) they would ignore the fact that many simple are were nominally baptized or if left the religion latter at life. But I am not arguing about their numbers, but about the fact that conversion to Orthodox Christianity was a widespread phenomena to just ignore or dismiss like that even. Also we do have studies like the European Social Survey in 2012 that show the Orthodox to be closer to 10% and not 6%. As for the Bektashis, we have no data to show their decline of fertility during Communism and to compare it to the Sunnis. Also, during Communism there was a natalist policy which even party members followed, with the exception of a small urban elite. Since the Bektashis remained rural during Communism, even if their practices were damaged their identity would remain. For example the European Social Survey from 2012 also puts them at 10%, and not anything closer to 2%. The census is simply the outliner here. Vargmali (talk) 09:25, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
In general the quality of the data of this census is questionable. We should use such data with heavy precaution as they do not reflect the real demographic picture of the country (EC, UN organizations, CIA factbook etc. & some recent secondary-academic papers are a few sources that support the dubious nature of this procedure).Alexikoua (talk) 19:11, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
If reliable sources can be found supporting the fact that the preliminary results showed a 70% as undeclared , then it is only logical that this fact gets the merited attention next to the census results.Gjirokastra15 (talk) 20:03, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
The big thing is "if" there is something, if there is nothing, its only conjecture. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:04, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Gjirokastra15 Resnjari this is probably what Vargmali was talking about: . The original source is INSTAT, but I'm lazy so you're getting this from me at least. Here's a quote:

Shifra 70%, e përmendur më herët në media, që sugjeron numrin e të regjistruarve që nuk janë shprehur për besimin, rezulton përafërsisht e vërtetë edhe sipas burimeve nga INSTAT/ Duke mos marrë në konsideratë faktin se rreth 1 milionë emigrantë nuk janë bërë pjesë e censusit, atëherë ndërtimi i fytyrës së re fetare të shqiptarëve pritet të jetë befasues. Për krahasim në një sondazh të kryer që në vitin 2001 në këtë drejtim solli në vëmendje shifrën se të paktën mbi 10% e qytetarëve deklaronin se nuk i përkisnin asnjë besimi. E marrë gjithsesi me rezervë ajo sinjalizon se një proces tjetërsimi është në zhvillim edhe pse besimi fetar perceptohet nga një pjesë e popullsisë si përkatësi për shkak të familjes dhe jo si çështje besimi.
English (Google Translate): "The 70% figure, mentioned earlier in the media, suggesting the number of registered non-believers, is also true according to sources from INSTAT / Not considering the fact that about 1 million immigrants have not become part of census, then the construction of the new religious face of Albanians is expected to be astounding. For comparison, in a survey conducted in 2001 in this regard, it was noted that at least over 10% of citizens stated that they did not belong to any faith. Yet, with the reserve, it signals that an alienation process is in progress although religious beliefs are perceived by a part of the population as belonging to the family, and not as a matter of faith."

... among other interesting things. Now of course I expect all of you to have different reasons why you find this acceptable or unacceptable but that is indeed what things were saying before the later set of results came out. Some might say the later census results were wrong and the census takers saw all the non-responses and just filled in the answers based on people's last names (some sources also report things along these lines). Others will say this is some sort of biased sample. According to this the ones excluded are "1 million immigrants". Either "sample" coming from the other is incredibly statistically unlikely. There's also the possibility that both are far off the mark. As a Wikipedian, the whole thing is fishy as everyone's claims add up to something like 200% and the mapping of regions in the census is entirely bizarre as you have one nearly totally 30% undeclared rural commune next to a 90% declared rural commune with the same culture etc, there other weird random blips like pockets of Catholics in Orthodox/Bektashi regions in the South, mysterious disappearance of the population of cities and regions from other surveys, and other totally bizarre things I can't find any source explaining; at the end of the day, as a Wikipedian, don't have a clue, and I don't need to have a clue. As almost everyone has noted in different ways here, there's been criticism of this census from all sorts of angles. To be entirely fair, Albania is a very complicated place with phenomena like atheists from mixed Bektashi/Orthodox background who "practice" both faiths (on holidays), these are not rare at all. How is a census supposed to capture that? One day we will be citing books about this census and others. Until then...--Calthinus (talk) 22:15, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Calthinus, point taken though with the last sentence from the cited paragraph from the news article, its mainly refering to a decrease of religious practice etc, not outright religious identity. When i was writing the Islam in Albania articles, i cam across scholarly studies which refered to these religious identities being seen in as a cultural thing -mainly secularised, not in terms of belief or faith. In that sense it tallies up with INSTAT's data that it collects separate to a census based on factors like church/mosque attendance, populations surveys etc. It still would not preclude that secular people or ones without belief could still identify in the census forms as belonging to a particular religion, but for them interpreting it as a cultural community thing. I know of people where i live in Australia that that have done that. More data for the changes underway are needed. At least when it comes to ethno-linguistic data, scholars have done sufficient fieldwork in communities that are not Albanian speaking to know where they reside which on that front is good. Best.Resnjari (talk) 22:52, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Thank you Calthinus it suffices as an initial footstep. Personally i would not be surprised if such was indeed the case given the fact that the vast majority of Albanians are a bit confused regarding their religious affiliation and i woud suspect that many of them are starting to not equate religious affiliation with family heritage anymore especially those of muslim faith given the social pressure as a result of the en mass emigration. Resnjari, you seem to take for granted that the orthodox community has fallen in numbers , but such is not the case .... please do take some time to watch this material/these photos which although has/have no value as a source it will indeed show to you how wrong you are : Here for example you have the orthodox mass in the cathedral of Tirana , ....as you can clearly see there is a minimally threefold dominance over the catholic one for the same event (Easter). Here is the orthodox mass for Easter in the city of Korce which according to Instat is only 20 % orthodox ... i mean come on!!! It truly is a tragicomedy and i hope you understand the source of my persistence..... P.S Calthinus , i noticed that you thought i was a girl , i am sorry to dissapoint you friend but i am a guy :) Gjirokastra15 (talk) 06:16, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Gjirokastra15, the use pictures or even video footage can be used to show any set of viewpoints. As with your exmaple of the Orthodox and attendance, the Muslim community can also be a case in point where for years and years now when its Ramazan, the centre of Tirana and adjacent streets overflow with people doing prayers (2013), 2014), (2015), (2016), (2017) etc and Korca Ramazan attendance rates are sizable and could make the case and say see there are many Muslims. On the Orthodox I am refering to decline because the 1945 census already showed a 3% decrease from the 1930s figure of 20%. Secondly it has been cited in non-Albanian scholarship about the Orthodox birthrate decreasing over the decades in comparison to other religious communities. Then there is the issue of migration (yes it has affected other communities, however if a community was already decreasing in numbers that additional factor compounds the matter more). And on conversion to Christianity an acedmic study places 13, 000 as being the figure for actual conversions to Christianity from Islam in Albania post 1992. To reach numbers claimed by certain communities of increases, some in the hundreds of thousands (!) does not add up. On Korca, its rural countryside overwhelmingly has Muslim villages (especially to its north and western confines) and there has been an influx from them post 1992 that has impacted Korca demographics. Similar thing has happened to Shkoder and Lezhe with Catholic increases from the northern highlands, Saranda with Muslims from the Kurvelesh interior. Great change has occurred and is still occurring in how people practice or don't practice religion and whether they identify with a particular religious community in the context of being outright believers or just cultural community identification (secular context). Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:16, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Gjiro, sorry, though I believe I am not the only one who has used "she" to refer to you in the past. Me fal.
Neither of you are making good arguments here. First of all, the census did not say 20% Orthodox for Korce, it said 35%. You can see the stats here--]. You may have been thinking of hte figure for Korce county or Korce region, not the city. This was a decline from over 80% a hundred years ago. Some of that can be explained with migration, but not all of it. Anyhow. Both Christian and Muslim festivals are widely attended by people of both faiths, as well as people of neither faith. This is a well known fact about Albania. In fact rural Muslim and Christians might make pilgrimages (!) to sites for the other ones faith which they still consider to be universally holy. This is covered in plenty of academic papers (De Rapper, Gerda, etc...) aside from just being a well-known phenomenon. So sizes of crowds there don't prove anything.
Regarding Korca, the hinterland is not exclusively or even overwhelmingly Muslim as there are a mix of Christian and Muslim villages surrounding it. To the South and East, you have Christian villages: Drenova, Boboshtica, Dardha, Mborja, some Vlach villages in Qender. Then there's Upper Devoll with Hocisht. Also a few in the north, like Bulgarec. There were historically Bektashis in other nearby areas, Sunnis in the city itself and Halvetis around Pojan. An aspect of the Orthodox population has also been migration from the Albanian countryside to Albanian cities, at a higher rate than the Muslim population. Also with the others some exaggeration and simplification has happened here -- Saranda's hinterland is Greek and Saranda has many of those still even after heavy immigration (as per Kallivretakis it also has like 10% Albanian Orthodox, perhaps from Lukova region), Catholic migration to Shkoder and Lezhe was already underway during the 19th century adn the cities already had sizable Catholic populations in 1918 as per the Austrian census.
Intermarriage is a complicating factor and is characteristic of Korce; results of Orthodox-Muslim marriage tend to end up identifying as Orthodox and often practicing neither; in any case Korca is very culturally secularized. Regarding intermarriage, by where Bektashis live, they should marry more Orthodox than Sunnis, and this has been discussed by various papers how this does happen. They are also culturally closer to the Orthodox when they are both in (formerly?) Gheg cities like Tirana and again intermarry in those places.
Imho 6-7% could actually be a legitimate number for the number of Orthodox believers (56% for Muslims believers though at the same time? Questionable.). However other polls taken after the census have shown higher numbers for the Orthodox like 12% and 14% -- personally I suspect that is the number that "identify with Orthodoxy". The Orth church claims its "own census" of followers shows 24-25%. But there is a complicating factor here-- it is entirely possible that 25 or even 30% of hte country has an Orthodox cultural background in some form which may indeed cause them to come to church and respond to this "Orthodox census", but many of them also have other backgrounds and identities (Bektashi, atheist, Protestant, etc...). The whole Orthodox-as-cultural-identity thing (as well as "cultural Muslim") gets convoluted when you consider how many people are both-- and yet each must be only one thing on the census, somehow. Various indicators have also shown that the Orthodox are the most secularized (the Muslims also are highly secularized, Catholics not so much)-- perhaps due to them being the most educated, and/or due to the communists successfully co-opting nationalism and painting Orthodoxy as an oriental, intrusive, foreign and "Greek" religion (in other ways they were harsher to Muslims or to Catholics though). When someone is of mixed Orthodox/Muslim heritage and practices neither (common) they often identify as Orthodox but that doesn't mean the census will say so, for a plethora of possible reasons. --Calthinus (talk) 17:43, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Anyways , i think we should just add that according to some media the preliminary reports were showing 70 % as undeclared. We could continue infinitely by projecting our own desires and estimations. Rresnjari , honestly i am not impressed ... A community that supposedly has 10x more believers than the orthodox community , gathers almost the same number of believers in Tirana as the orthodox community in Korce. Furthermore , i brought those photos so that they could serve as a logical footstep in estimating the real number of the Orthodox community and this could be done by estimating the difference between the Catholic & Orthodox masses in the capital of Albania. Gjirokastra15 (talk) 20:47, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Well that's your view and others contest that view. I am still in no way swayed that the Muslim population has decreased from such epic proportions that some quarters in Albania are alleging. With Tirana etc my point was that anyone can use photographic or film as "evidence" to make their point that a certain religious community is massive in relation to the others. In the end its not reliable because we are placing our own interpretation on such sources. Its why acedmic sources (i.e wp:reliable and wp:secondary are required at the very least. But with regards to Islam, revival (some see it as growth) instead of decline is what is happening over the years due to mosques construction in villages etc , .Resnjari (talk) 23:09, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
As i said to you before, this discussion produces vanity, however keep in mind that more churches than mosques are being built. The latest church to be built in Tirana per example is an advertist church . However that by itself means nothing this being a nonlinear matter. The fact is that the christian population in Albania is greatly underreported : Here for example you have 1 evangelical church that has 6.198 followers with an increase of 20 % since last month ... only 1 evangelical church in Tirana has almost more followers than the total percentage given for all the evangelicals/protestants of Albania. As of 2007 , there were already 189 different Protestant associations and groups. If you add to the equation the orthodox and catholic churches , the mormons and the the jehovah witness then it should become apparent to you that this requires a universal approach. Gjirokastra15 (talk) 00:44, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Gjirokastra15 I would support adding it, as it already is present on other related pages. My apologies for the tldr above. --Calthinus (talk) 21:51, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Its important that if it gets added that the word preliminary is added, as that data refers to initial and not final results. Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:09, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Resnjari-- of course. To not state that would be frankly manipulative. --Calthinus (talk) 02:42, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

@Gjirokastra15 the construction of mosques has been recent, due to previous funding issues post 1992 with the Saudis and now especially the Turks (due to their rising GDP) in conjunction with diaspora money filling the present day void. The Orthodox via mainly Greek (and some Cypriot Greek) money achieved the construction of many churches and the Catholics via the Vatican in the 1990s and 2000s having a head start of some decades on the Muslims. Muslims have been playing catch up as they found patrons willing to aid in revival and rejuvenation efforts in areas that traditionally were/are Muslim. My point with citing those two articles from Balkaninsight (from a neutral news source outlet) was that Islam is by no means a spent religious force in Albania. With protestant groups yeah sure there are many registered, does not mean their numbers are ballooning. Its like with the Iranians and their Shia organisations etc, registered but does not mean their presence has increased Shi'ism in the hundreds of thousands (as some out there types claim) apart from a few hundred. Also facebook is not a credible source for use in Misplaced Pages, otherwise i can use facebooks sites on Islam in Albania. You still have not presented (some) academic sources or something of the sort to show this massive decrease of Islam in relation to a huge upsurge in Christianity within Albania. Best.Resnjari (talk) 22:42, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

I have already stated that those links have no value as a source , especially the facebook pages , however they served as a footstep in showing you empirically & practically how much the census results do diverge from reality / how underreported the evangelicals/protestants are. That is pure WP:OR , but is the best i have in establishing by aproximation the religious composition of the country which is dynamic in nature.Gjirokastra15 (talk) 23:19, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
What's really weird about the understanding of POV is that while we have claims that Le Monde Diplomatique is useless as a wikipedia source in this case at the same time ultranationalist journalists such as Mema are fine to stay. No wonder the quality of such arguments are really weak for a noticeboard. On the other hand published maps such as the one of Diplomatique and the one in ] meet both wp:ACADEMIC and wp:SECONDARY. There was also a claim to discredit Diplomatique on the ground that we have no primary material that points to a map like this one. Nevertheless there "is" primary stuff that verifies this map (CIA reports etc.). Not only that but parts of Kallivretakis, Nitsiakos, Winnifrith works are misrepresented and cherry picked in order to promote a false impression.Alexikoua (talk) 09:54, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 December 2017

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Change

"Albania recognizes almost three national minorities, Greeks, Macedonians and Montenegrins, and two cultural minorities: Aromanians and Romani people. Other Albanian minorities are Bulgarians, Gorani, Serbs, Balkan Egyptians, Bosniaks and Jews."

To

"Albania recognizes the following national minorities: Greek, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Montenegrin, Serb, Roma, Egyptian, Bosnian and two cultural minorities: Aromanians and Romani people."

The sources are: 1. http://www.novinite.com/articles/184224/Albania+has+Recognized+the+Bulgarian+Minority+in+the+Country 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/Bulgarians_in_Albania#Acknowledgement_of_the_Bulgarian_minority

Please make this change in the other langueages also. Rogershehu (talk) 10:21, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Done Here in the English Misplaced Pages. The English Misplaced Pages, however, has no control or authority over the Wikipedias in other languages and cannot automatically make this change or force it into those other languages. You will need to either perform this change yourself or request others to perform this change at the appropriate pages in the other language projects. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:50, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

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Map replacement obsession

All of the sudden and contrary to long debates an editor claims that a map about the historical presence of minorities should vanish from this article ]. I'm sure that this initiative warrants talkpage participation by the editor instead of simply (misleading) edit summaries.Alexikoua (talk) 09:35, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Talkpage discussion happening at the Language of Albania talkpage (Talk:Languages of Albania) on map a thread on that page revived by you. Adding this link as an addition to this thread which is about your controversial "historical presence of minorities" map with a replacement map encompassing scholarship.Resnjari (talk) 09:40, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
By the way, the unexplained removal of a long established consensus map equals disruption (no need to pretend to be offended in specific edit summaries in order to avoid talkpage participation).Alexikoua (talk) 10:01, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
"long established consensus" not really, it was the only map available at the time.Resnjari (talk) 10:11, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Wiki commons appears to disagree with this claim.Alexikoua (talk) 10:18, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Well one issue with the second map is that it shouldn't have the editors username written on it.Seraphim System 10:07, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Seraphim System, about a username it can be removed and not removed. Those things are trivial. The issue at hand is whether Alexikoua's map is factually grounded (as of now it is based on few sources (6!) with one being academic and only selectively used for the Aromanians) vs the second map which covers everything separate to the additions by Silent based on sources. Its important that such maps are based on scholarship and not a certain POV. Best.Resnjari (talk) 10:23, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
I'm not familiar enough with the sources but the map shouldn't be restored with a particular editor's username written on it. Either way it looks like the two maps are wildly different, at least in their representation of the Greek speaking areas. It would really be best to post the sources for the discussion here directly.Seraphim System 10:27, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Seraphim System, A username thing is trivial with or without. The discussion was revived on a another talkpage. I don't know whether it should be done over there or here. But having multiple discussions one the same thing many pages would not be productive toward resolution although i don't mind having it here if others want to move the discussion to this talkpage. A similar discussion was had some time back on this issue -in the end it went no where are there was no replacement map, although some editors acknowledged the limitations of Alexikoua's. Questions where asked of Alexikoua as well with little reply. For full discussion see: . Anyway the divergence in the Greek population has to do with the Orthodox population in general. In the late Ottoman period, much of the Orthodox Albanian speaking, Aromanian speaking population had Greek sentiments due to religious factors, schooling etc. From a Greek point of view these are Greeks who were made Albanians (post 1912) and from a Albanian perspective these where Albanians being Hellenised, a process halted due to inclusion into an Albanian state. The issue is are these to be shown as Greek outright. If so then the distribution as per Alexikoua map sort of covers that, if linguistic and other local identities are taken into account, then language etc ought to be shown which limits the Greeks to the area in the south, as per Calinthus's map. I still am perplexed as to why Muslim areas are shown in Alexikoua's map or additions by Silent to Calinthus' map as being Greek. On sources here is the wiki link that Calinthus has used to date based on scholarship -the link is also highlighted on the map caption. Best.Resnjari (talk) 10:43, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
I think the best thing would be to find a clear source for a map and follow that. Even then, sometimes in issues like this it is better not to have a map at all, or to keep it simple, so other editors can WP:V. The preference should also be for English sources, or translations should be provided. I think we have to take care that what is in the articles will be considered valuable by those reading them.Seraphim System 11:17, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Seraphim System, there is one in map form and its Winnifirth, which is in line with the scholarship and had Alexikoua followed that map fully (instead of just for the Aromanians) would have almost to a fine line had the same outline that Calinthus originally had with his map (before Silent's additions) for the distribution of Greeks in Albania. The scholarship does not contradict each other. There are editors here who are pushing for a Le Diplomatique map source which is not based on scholarly sources to extend the Greek area, in addition to a early 20th century Greek source Sotiriades -while not saying why that map ought to be privileged above others which show like the scholarship something different. Thing is when i pose questions to these editors about their map like Alexikoua's i get no reply or the reply does not address the issue. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and ought to be based on its criteria of having wp:reliable and wp:secondary sources not POV affirming something. I am also for not having a map too, but these editors insist, so i insist on accuracy. Best.Resnjari (talk) 11:29, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment: I am against bold replacement of the map. Without going into detail who is right and who is wrong, editors who struggle to insert another map should respect wp:brd because their bold edits are reverted with appropriate explanation. The current map is based on long term consensus and it would be necessary to gain another consensus for its replacement.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:23, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
There was no consensus then, there just was no alternative map. A discussion on map accuracy is more than warranted as per Misplaced Pages criteria of wp:reliable and wp:secondary. Resnjari (talk) 11:29, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
The current map was inserted with this diff more than two years ago. That counts as silent consensus. If you have valid arguments which support removal of the map then follow WP:DR and gain consensus for your position. Do not advocate violation of WP:BRD.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:48, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
It was not silent consensus. The map has been challenged heaps of time in various talkpages of where it has been displayed. There has not been an alternative one to replace until now. Many questions of accuracy have been raised. If you want you can participate in the discussion. I base my self on scholarship and the sources in those deliberations and not something else. Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:09, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
The map survived for more than two years. That counts as silent consensus in articles which are so frequently edited like this one. The problem with article on this kind of topic is that a few people with strong opinions end up aguing among themselves and generate huge walls of text that might drive away any outside editors who would otherwise be willing to participate in the discussion. If the map is indeed so bad, then follow WP:DR and easily gain consensus for its replacement. There is no particular need to continue this discussion here and clog talkpages with huge walls of text. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:31, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Its not about survival, its about accuracy, I have seen maps such as one regarding the Principality of Arbanon that was there for years and years which was removed in the end for being inaccurate . Anti, there can't be one set of rules about accuracy and source reliability applicable for one map and then out the window it goes in favour of 'map survival' for another. The map by Alexikoua has multiple problems ranging from omissions of communities like the Gorani, Romani and Bosniaks etc. Calthinus has gone out of his way to address those short comings using scholarship with a new map. The discussion was initiated by other editors on multiple talkpages so i have answered on those and they too replied. They have agreed to move discussion to one on the Languages of Albania page. Don't know about a DR yet, this process on the talkpage first needs to run its course, hopefully with a resolution.Resnjari (talk) 13:50, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Blatant WP:IDHT again. Although I clearly stated (diff): That counts as silent consensus in articles which are so frequently edited like this one and you decided to completely ignore my comment and to compare:
  1. Albania with 836 watchers and 15,110 edits
  2. with Principality of Arbanon with less than 30 watchers and 261 edits
Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution policy is English Misplaced Pages policy with its own page. All the best. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:23, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
iI pointed out previously in an example where a 'silent consensus' map was overturned due to accuracy issues. It does not matter how many watchers there are for that to occur on any article. Accuracy is very important otherwise why have rules like wp:reliable and wp:secondary. A discussion has begun on the map issue. If you want to participate by all means, otherwise this is trivial here. Best.Resnjari (talk) 14:30, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Blatant WP:IDHT again. There is absolutely no doubt that you do understand that the difference in number of watchers and number of edits is very important and that you can not compare the article on Albania and some other article with 100 times less page views. Instead to follow Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution policy you opted to clog this talkpage too with walls of text although there is no doubt you understand that it might drive away any outside editors who would otherwise be willing to participate in the discussion as I pointed in this comment above. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:55, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Anti, you keep infering on one thing an i gave an example of another where a change has happened in such a instance. I thought this was a encyclopedia project, not a online forum about how many pageviews occur determining outcomes. Accuracy is very important, as per wp:reliable and wp:secondary. Otherwise whats the point of Misplaced Pages if accuracy is not the overall standard of the place. Also please don't infer something of my comments. I have not inhibited anyone from commenting and nor have i said that they should not. As i have said to you before and now again, see: wp:civil. On walls of text in recent times you engaged in some of that on my talkpage and some other article talkpages. If you don't like it don't do it. If editors want to comment it is their choice. Best.Resnjari (talk) 18:03, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
  • i gave an example of another where a change has happened in such a instance If 6,000 people who see this page every day did not challenge the map it for more than two years, based on Misplaced Pages:Silence and consensus I conclude that it gained silent consensus. If you believe that your Arbanon WP:OTHER STUFF EXISTS example means that Misplaced Pages:Silence and consensus is not valid anymore, go and initiate its change.
  • If editors want to comment it is their choice Absolutely not, because repeatedly pushing a viewpoint with which the consensus of the community clearly does not agree, might be characterized as stonewalling or filibustering. And it is disruptive and sanctionable. I looked trough the archives of this page to see if there was consensus to remove this map and noticed a couple of threads where small group of editors indeed challenged this map, but they failed to gain consensus for their position. One of them was initiated by you (link. If after all this comments you and other members of this small group did not convince multiple other editors, the only way to proceed is to follow WP:DR policy. Not to continue with stonewalling and filibustering.
  • I think I gave clear explanation about my position and I do not have anything else to add to it now. I understand that you are not satisfied with my position, but you can not expect me to be somehow obliged to continue discussing this with you as long as you are not satisfied. All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:36, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
I'm afraid that Res. still needs to offer a decent explanation why Le Monde Diplomatique's map is unreliable. I would suggest to avoid terms like "controversial map" etc. without serious explanation.Alexikoua (talk) 15:12, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Your map omits communities (Gorani, Romani etc) and it colours areas that have solid Muslim populations as Greek. Controversial is the term because Muslim Albanians in the past did not even identify with pro-Greek sentiments. It infering that they where affiliated with Hellenism when even Soiriaides (that map you use) avoids that. With the Le Monde Diplomatique it was published in 1999 while Wnnifrith's book was published in 2002. Why does it not reflect the view of Le Monde Diplomatique but instead the ethnic map done by Winnifrith reflects data like Kallivretakis? You uses both sources for your map, either one or the other is wrong? Additionally why the Sotiriades map? One could use Gustav Wiegand's map which resembles the scholarship or others.Resnjari (talk) 15:26, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Yet again you fail to explain why Le Monde Diplomatique is unreliable. On the other hand SR's initiative to solve the various contradicting views still meets stubborn opposition, though it solves the Gorani, Romani issues.Alexikoua (talk) 15:30, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Le Monde Diplomatique is not a scholarly source and in between its publishing in 1999 there is Kallivretakis who did fieldwork before and Winnifrith who did fieldwork after. Le Monde Diplomatique have also produced a map of Macedonia that has issues as well like showing the Ohrid and surrounding areas as Albanian! When it comes to accuracy big issues (one does not know how Le Monde Diplomatique came by its content -not specified, no footnotes or something of a disclaimer about fieldwork, guesswork?) and does not correspond time and time again to scholarship. Instead works like those of Nitsiakos corroborates via fieldwork the previous works of Kallivretakis, Winnifrith etc. On your end how about a reply about Sotiriades, why that map? Best.Resnjari (talk) 15:42, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Le Monde Diplomatique is not a scholarly source... Actually you have to be kidding since dozens of authors of academic background contribute there. Feel free to take the issue (yet again) to the relevant noticeboard. On the other hand I have the feeling that you simply cherry pick Nitsiakos, Kallivretakis, Winnifrith etc. in order to promote your personal POV. Winnifrith for example mentions Greek speakers in the Korce region, Nitsiakos in Permet & Kallivretakis doesn't offer an analysis about Permet & Korce.Alexikoua (talk) 15:56, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Its a media source, not a peer reviewed scholarly journal. Le Monde diplomatique is to quote its wiki lede disclaimer "is a monthly newspaper offering analysis and opinion on politics, culture, and current affairs. Le Monde diplomatique is a left-wing anti-capitalist newspaper." Its also had issues with 9/11 conspiracy theories etc. I have not taken the issue to a relevant noticeboard. On Winnifrith mentioning there are Greek speakers does not mean they are a majority, same with Nitsiakos and Permet. Can you highlight where in those passages it says majority, mixed or even Greek only -as i have those books right in front of me on the desk. Best.Resnjari (talk) 16:07, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Its part of an article that's focused on diplomacy&international politics. Not to mention that the author of the article is a Sorbon Uni. graduate on the subject: It simply falls into both wp:academic and wp:secondary. It also appears that another book also adopts this "controversial" opinion about the Greek inhabited area ]. On the other hand a can't see a single published map that limits the Greek region in something similar to the one uploaded by Calthinus. It's better to wait for corrections about Permet and especially about SR's proposal (about double&triple colored areas) which sounds quite reasonable.Alexikoua (talk) 21:43, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Le Monde Diplomatique is a newspaper, and as such it can not weight more or as much as peer reviewed academic studies. Le Monde Diplomatique has been criticized for its publishing of fringe content. For example, just some examples because the list is long enough to write a book, Le Monde Diplomatique has been criticized for its promotion of fringe ideas that globalization is nothing more than an American attempt at world conquest, the United Sates are worse than bin Laden, Europe is an American "vassal" . To be honest with you, the best thing Le Monde Diplomatique has done so far is its portraying of Ohrid as a city of contemporary Albania. However Le Monde Diplomatique is nothing against the author of literary essay Alexikoua has mistakenly taken for an academic source. Philippe Rekacewicz is a geographer and cartographer, and has nothing in common with a reliable historian or ethnographer. He has participated in some "radical cartography" projects and this is well-documented. The geographer has used only one reference, Rexhep Qosja. You keep this up and I will add Qosja's writings to some Misplaced Pages articles. The same standards to be applied to all articles, right? I guess essays like the one used in the fringe map are the reason behind Ignacio Ramonet's (editor-in-chef of Le Monde Diplomatique) worry about unreliable information that is being served to media organizations such as Le Monde Diplomatique itself . The other book Alexikoua presented here was written by who based on what references? Based on Misplaced Pages? The book is an ordinary collection of online information that is of much help to tourists. The proposal of SR is misguided because what is disputed is Le Monde Diplomatique source (and some others, maybe), hence just adding it to the map made by Calthinus creates more confusion. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:15, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Simply degrading articles written by serious academics (as this one) isn't a sound approach. I doubt if someone can be convinced at the correspondent noticeboard. On the other hand I would suggest to avoid sources written by ultranationalist journalists such as Marin Mema (see S. Melani).Alexikoua (talk) 00:48, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
"Simply degrading articles written by serious academics", well since you place scholarship above everything else, why Le Monde Diplomatique (is it an opinion piece or peer reviewed) serious scholars like Kallivretakis, Wnnifrith, Nitsiakos etc etc ? Ktrimi991 analysis is quite warranted here and concerns expressed of merit. Alexikoua, some reflection on "ultranationalist" issues as you still have given a response about Sotiriades, what makes that source credible? "On the other hand a can't see a single published map that limits the Greek region in something similar to the one uploaded by Calthinus." Should i upload Winnifrith on a image sharing site and place a link here, since you used him to show Vlach distribution and ignored the rest (to refresh your memory)? You want "corrections" on Permet using scholarship, yet are not in favour of such corrections for other places. Albanian Muslims are Greek on the map, what kind of POV is that? We'll see where this goes here for now. Map will need much more corrections.Resnjari (talk) 06:06, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
I also will note why is it that scholars like Nitsiakos (2010, also a Cambridge scholar -since qualifications of other academics were raised by Alexikoua) on the ground that do fieldwork mainly note that the Greeks are found in Albania's south, in the Gjirokaster and Saranda areas even corroborating previous scholars like Kallivretakis while source like Le Diplomatique (opinion piece or is it peer reviewed?) or even that source now used by Alexikoua don't show methodology, source etc from where they got their info.Resnjari (talk) 06:13, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
After Ktrimi's well-sourced and comprehensive takedown of some of the sources used, we should engage that rather than the totally unrelated Marin Mema. Weirder still the reference to a discussion where Alexikoua tried to paint Mema, who is of Orthodox Christian heritage, as a "Jdichadi". Honestly if I were you Alexi I would be incredibly embarassed that took place and would never want to bring that up again. Its bizarre to accuse Ktrimi of using Mema anyways as he is the one who worked hard to replace Mema's journalistic sources with published books on Stath Melani. To be fair Mema may not have been best, although many of his views are common in Albania, he happens to be persona non grata in Greece due to his statements on the Cham issue. Alexi you should be understanding as you too made mistakes, like using Cassavetes, who I suppose you didnt notice launched into rabidly racist diatribes not only against Albanians, Christian and Muslim alike, but also offtopic ones against Arabs and "Abyssinians" in his failed attempt to convince the American political elite to award North Epirus to Greece-- which was what you cited as a scholarly source. One interesting tidbit though-- the stats Cassavetes cited, Virgili's, in his rabidly Greek nationalist propaganda work, show zero Greek speaking Christians in the Korcha and Erseka kazas...--Calthinus (talk) 06:38, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
For the record i was not in favour of using Mema and prefered removal of him with replacement via scholarship. There is a huge issue with the hatched lines matter. Apart from covering areas that are solidly Muslim Albanian (even the Greek army in its statistics respected that those people were Albanians and not some kind of Greek people), Orthodox Albanian (speaking) areas are given as Greek. Take for example Leskovik (cited by both Greek army stats as majority Muslim Albanian etc). Modern fieldwork there by Karolina Bielenin noted that it was not evident that the town is a mixed Greek and Albanian one, with most people there that know Greek having only learned it post 1992 due to going and working in Greece -p. 282. . Alexikoua used Winnifrith and the comment above about not knowing or having come across a map that was inline with Calthinus' map on Greek distribution does not suffice. Alexikoua cherry picked it for Vlach distribution and ignored the rest. Any further comments of the sort about not being aware of that content, then i will place the map on a image sharing site and a link to it here for all to see and compare with Alexikoua's map. We ought to strive for accuracy, not something based on a reality that is not there.Resnjari (talk) 08:24, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Alexikoua Your words do not match with the truth, hence they can be interpreted as a personal attack. Sadly, you have produced such claims in relation to me in places that are much more serious than this page. Of course, you opened that little investigation on the behalf of another person with whom you seem to have off-Wiki connections, hence if that kind of circus resurfaced the person who would face with the outcome of that kind of disastrous and ill-advised action is not nicknamed Alexikoua. I never supported making use of Mema's article because it was written in a newspaper (newspaper like Le Monde Diplomatique) and the author, like Rekacewicz himslef, does not wear the blessed coat of a historian. After I saw Mema and other newspapers, I placed two academic books after every sentence of the said article and proposed on the talk page to remove Mema and other newspapers. I pinged you but you did not respond. You supported keeping Mema there. You say that "Jdichadi" Mema is not a reliable source, and you say that another journalist, Rekacewicz is a reliable source. I guess journalists as sources are of help when it suits our POV, right? Rekacewicz made use of Qosja for his work, hence Qosja is a good peer reviewed source? I have access to the books of Qosja, and I will use him like you use Rekacewicz. Of course you don't share Qosja's opinion on Greece and the Greeks in Albania. We are in a crossroad. We disregard sources that claim the United States are worse than bin Laden and equal to Hitler and Stalin and stick to sources that are in the world of historiography or make use of every journalist that comes to our hands. I support giving Caesar what belongs to Caesar, the Greek speakers should be represented on the map in every corner of Albania they live. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:43, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
It appears that certain editors follow strict national lines and thus credible sources "must" be labelled as POV (Monte Diplomatique & various published maps that clearly show the Greek area stretching under a Himare-Prespa line) simply beacause wp:IDLI. 2. I'm also still waiting for Ktrimi's analysis (as in the weird S.Melani additions he did in Permet which still aren't addressed by him), 3. Kallivretakis, Winnifrith, Nitsiakos do not refute this map which isn't controversial but a product of a long established concensus.Alexikoua (talk) 17:42, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
It's also sad that SR's middle solution isn't accepted by editors that display stubborn and unexplained opposition.Alexikoua (talk) 17:44, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
While SR's proposal was intended as a middle solution, it was absolutely not, as it included unacceptable sources. You are not listening but Resnjari and Ktrimi991 have sufficiently demonstrated the problematic nature of all three of your sources concerning the Greek distribution. It is not IDLI. Le Monde Diplomatique is a newspaper that promoted 9/11 conspiracy theories, equated the united States to Hitler, Stalin and bin Laden and cited only Rexhep Qosja, bizarrely -- and its other maps are similarly wildly inaccurate (indeed solidly Albanian Ohrid is something not even rabid Albanian nationalists believe, yet Le Monde Diplomatique has it...). Frankly the use of such a conspiracy theory mouthpiece is offensive. Rekacewicz is also a "radical cartographer" also involved in the same sort of far-left madness. Sot----- is one of many problematic 19th century sources that have long been refuted. Not a single one of these holds up. Ktrimi and Resnjari explained this all and cited their statements, first you tried to redirect the conversation onto Marin Mema which is wildly offtopic and also not favorable to your position anyways, and now you are pretending Ktrimi's revelations never happened. Please stop running and hiding and engage. If you can counter these statements that would be one thing but so far you have appeared unable to do so.--Calthinus (talk) 18:03, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Its quite weird that while defending the use of nationalist advocates such as M. Mema you reject Diplomatique because of 9/11 conspiracies... the nature of your arguments can be easily considered as not impartial. I'm not running and hiding neither engage but this kind of POV and stubborn opposition to remove long established consensus map needs to stop. Alexikoua (talk) 18:18, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
You either didnt read or are being deliberately misleading. No one has defended using Mema in this discussion (ironic given your unapologetic use of the wildly racist Cassavetes). In fact Ktrimi was the one who removed him. On the other hand, how can you defend your reliance on far-left "journalism" that vomits out wild anti-Western conspiracy theories?--Calthinus (talk) 18:43, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Let me remind you that the one that used Cassavetes was you (can't understand why you accuse me on that). Also about Mema let me remind you that you found him reliable about Melani ]. It would be very weird to dismiss Diplomatique (which isn't the only map that defines the Greek area) because of "Bill Landen claims" made against other authors of this newspaper, while at the same time defending the use of ultranational journalist with connections to ISIS sympathizers such as Mame. Apart from this, you proposed to add in your map areas about populations that identified as Greeks. May I ask if this still an active proposal?Alexikoua (talk) 18:59, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
I used Virgili's stats inside Cassavetes pamphlet. Virgili is not Cassavetes. You on the other hand used the racist propagandist Cassavetes to make a statement about population sentiment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Special:MobileDiff/791211498 . Its ok, we all make mistakes, and i assume it was one. Ive talked ages about how ridiculius the defamatory ISIS claims about Mema are (for starters hes Christian!), but I prefer less emotive books to his journalistic style. Additionally, my support for the use of Mema was for simple facts like the date of Melani's death which I didnt think would be fabricated, nothing else -https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Special:MobileDiff/792946528 -- but in hindsight I admit that might have been a mistake-- we both make them. Enough with the Whataboutism. Yes my proposal to include a statement about sentiment on the side is still active.--19:13, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
The non-Albanian character of such communities: bilingualism, mixed ancestry, self identification etc. is an essential feature for a map about "traditional presence of non Albanian communities" and should be portrayed in the correspondent areas of this map. I'm glad you understand this fact.Alexikoua (talk) 19:26, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
The map should portray facts-- language, religion-- not analyses ("true nationality", etc...). I'm fine adding a statement that some non-Greek speakers identified as Greek. I'm not fine saying all Orthodox on the South diddid which would have Veqilharxhi, the Qiriazis, Mitko, Hoxhi, Melani, Sotiri, some of the Frasheris and so on as all "Greek" which is absurd.--Calthinus (talk) 19:43, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
  1. "International Religious Freedom Report 2007: Albania". US Dept. of State/Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor. www.state.gov. 2006-09-15. Retrieved 2010-05-13.
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