Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:51, 4 January 2018

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Donald Trump. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Donald Trump at the Reference desk.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Want to add new information about Donald Trump? Most often, it should not go here. Please consider choosing the most appropriate article, for example: Presidency of Donald Trump Timeline of the Trump presidency, 2018 Q1 List of presidential trips made by Donald Trump Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections Donald Trump on social media …or dozens of other places, as listed in {{Donald Trump series}}. Thanks!

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Donald Trump article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187Auto-archiving period: 7 days

Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article: You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances) Changes challenged by reversion may not be reinstated without affirmative consensus on the talk page Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. Further information Enforcement procedures: Violations of any of these restrictions should be reported immediately to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. Editors who are aware of this topic being designated a contentious topic and who violate these restrictions may be sanctioned by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense. With respect to the WP:1RR restriction: Edits made solely to enforce any clearly established consensus are exempt from all edit-warring restrictions. Edits made which remove or otherwise change any material placed by clearly established consensus, without first obtaining consensus to do so, may be treated in the same manner as obvious vandalism. In order to be considered "clearly established" the consensus must be proven by prior talk-page discussion. Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring. If you are in doubt, contact an administrator for assistance. Whenever you are relying on one of these exemptions, you should refer to it in your edit summary and, if applicable, link to the discussion where consensus was clearly established. The contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topics sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. Remember: When in doubt, don't revert!

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Arts and Entertainment / Politics and Government This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the arts and entertainment work group (assessed as Mid-importance). This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Top-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Business Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Business, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of business articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BusinessWikipedia:WikiProject BusinessTemplate:WikiProject BusinessWikiProject Business Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:WikiProject Donald Trump Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. New York City High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York City, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of New York City-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York CityWikipedia:WikiProject New York CityTemplate:WikiProject New York CityNew York City High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics: American Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by American politics task force (assessed as Top-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. United States: Television / Presidential elections / Presidents / Government Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by American television task force (assessed as Mid-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. presidential elections (assessed as Top-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject United States Presidents (assessed as High-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. Government (assessed as High-importance). Template:WP1.0

	Donald Trump was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result June 2, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed February 12, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed September 18, 2016 Good article nominee Not listed May 25, 2017 Good article nominee Not listed Current status: Former good article nominee

There is a request, submitted by Lionsdude148, for an audio version of this article to be created. For further information, see WikiProject Spoken Misplaced Pages. The rationale behind the request is: "This is the President of the United States".

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Pstein92.

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Cuozzo, Steve (November 16, 2013). "Don't Trust Anything on Misplaced Pages". New York Post. Popper, Ben (July 22, 2015). "Someone just deleted Donald Trump's entire Misplaced Pages page". The Verge. Merrill, Jeremy (February 1, 2016). "On Misplaced Pages, Donald Trump Reigns and Facts Are Open to Debate". New York Times. Germ, Erik (May 28, 2016). "5 Secretly Bizarre Sections Of Websites You Use Every Day". Cracked.com. Guo, Jeff (October 25, 2016). "Misplaced Pages is fixing one of the Internet's biggest flaws". The Washington Post. Alcantara, Chris (October 27, 2016). "The most challenging job of the 2016 race: Editing the candidates' Misplaced Pages pages". The Washington Post. Staff Writer (December 21, 2016). "Most-edited Misplaced Pages pages of 2016 revealed". BBC News. Gartenberg, Chaim (January 20, 2017). "Misplaced Pages editors can't decide if Trump is the president yet". The Verge. Wyrich, Andrew (June 5, 2017). "Someone is trying to get Trump's official portrait deleted from Misplaced Pages". The Daily Dot.

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): LittleRobbinBird (article contribs).

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Donald Trump article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187Auto-archiving period: 7 days

This was the most viewed article on Misplaced Pages for the week of December 6–12, 2015; January 31–February 6, February 21–27, February 28–March 5, March 6–12, March 13–19, October 9–15, October 16–22, November 6–12, and November 13–19, 2016; January 15–21 and January 22–28, 2017, according to the Top 25 Report.

Open RfCs and surveys

• #Proposing a change to the first sentence
• #RfC: Sexual misconduct allegations in the lead

• v
• e

NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as:
] item
To ensure you are viewing the current list, you may wish to purge this page.

01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 7 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Misplaced Pages's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017, upheld by RfC July 2024)

25. In citations, do not code the archive-related parameters for sources that are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not preclude bringing up for discussion whether to include media coverage relating to Trump's mental health and fitness. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (RfC October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (RfC October 2021) Amended after re-election: After his first term, scholars and historians ranked Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history. (November 2024)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias, optionally using its shortcut, WP:TRUMPRCB.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

66. Omit {{infobox criminal}}. (RfC June 2024)

67. The "Health" section includes: "Trump says he has never drunk alcohol, smoked cigarettes, or used drugs. He sleeps about four or five hours a night." (February 2021)

Sexual abuse allegations need to be mentioned in the lead

We really need to get the sexual abuse allegations back into the lead section. This was included there for ages before it was unilaterally removed by someone, it has an extremely lengthy in-depth article, Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations (which in itself is a very strong indication that a topic merits mention in the lead section of the main article), and it is one of the most defining features of Trump's presidency, second perhaps only to the scandals related to Russia. In the past someone claimed that there was no longer any coverage of this to justify its exclusion, a blatantly wrong and ridiculous claim. Just from today we have e.g.:

• Trump sex harassment accusers demand congressional inquiry, BBC
• Trump accusers renew sexual misconduct charges against him, say it was ‘heartbreaking’ to see him elected, The Washington Post
• Women detail sexual allegations against Trump, CNN
• Trump accusers band together, seek congressional probe of 'sexual misconduct', Fox News
• 4 Trump Accusers Call On Congress To Investigate Sexual Misconduct Claims, HuffPo
• Women accusing President Trump of sexual harassment call for a congressional investigation, USA Today
• https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2017-12-11/women-accusing-trump-of-sexual-misconduct-seek-congressional-probe, US News & World Report
• Trump accusers call for Congress to investigate sexual harassment allegations against him, ABC News
• Women who accused Trump of sexual misconduct speak out, NBC
• Women who have accused Trump of inappropriate conduct, Reuters
• Three Trump Accusers Seek Congressional Probe, Bloomberg
• Women demand probe into alleged Trump sexual assaults, Al Jazeera
• 3 Female Accusers Call for Congress to Investigate President Trump for Sexual Harassment, TIME
• This is just the tip of the iceberg; I find hundreds of articles about this issue just from today from media around the globe

The coverage of this issue has been continous and extremely extensive for much more than a year – in addition this issue has received coverage (although not as much as today for obvious reasons, given that Trump was a comparatively obscure figure before he won the Republican nomination) for at least 30 years. The sexual abuse allegations are, next to the Russia thing, clearly the single most covered issue related to Trump in reliable sources, possibly the most covered issue. Certainly when we take his whole life into account this is the dominant story. It thus ought to feature prominently here. The fact that it already has a stand-alone article underlines that. Not mentioning it in the lead will clearly come across as strongly partisan/politically motivated and neither NPOV nor encyclopedic in any way. --Tataral (talk) 20:49, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Concur. Long term coverage and historically significant.Casprings (talk) 21:56, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 69#Shouldn't something about the sexual misconduct allegations be in the lead? for a recent discussion. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 22:05, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, this question was raised very recently after the Weinstein scandal broke out. Although the discussion was not a formal RfC, opinions varied widely on the suitability of this episode for the lede section. With 5 editors for and 11 against, I do not see a path to obtaining consensus for the lede. — JFG 23:24, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

You assume that few of the opposers would be swayed by the above list showing massive, high-quality RS coverage continuing through present day—which was not clearly shown in the previous discussion—and you may be right. Many editors simply can't be swayed. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:29, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

I do not assume anything and would be happy to see a RfC if somebody cares to build a well-crafted proposal. Consensus may have changed with recent coverage. — JFG 23:33, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As one of the opposers in the discussion in Archive 69, I'm not swayed by that list at all. The question isn't whether the allegations are notable (they are; and they are discussed in depth at Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations), the question is whether they are relevant enough to be included in the lede. As a point of reference, they aren't mentioned in the lede at Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 either. power~enwiki (π, ν) 23:36, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

In that case, Tataral, I suggest we stop farting around and start said RfC. Let me know if you need help framing or formatting it, I don't know how much of that you've done and it's often done wrong. It often helps to do it first in a sandbox, minus the {{Rfc}} template. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:40, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, an RfC would be a good idea. If you to want to help initiating one that would be most welcome. --Tataral (talk) 15:22, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

@Tataral: I'll get something started in one of my sandboxes and then post here. No reason why it shouldn't be open to improvement by anybody, within reason. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:04, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

@Tataral: Basic structure is here. Start by adding the "background" part. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:22, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Of course it doesn't belong in the campaign context. The allegations relate to Trump personally, not to the campaign.

As for the lead - I completely agree. I made similar arguments previously (in the middle of the discussion - they were largely unaddressed), and I also proposed that the sub-section on the allegations be shifted from the campaign section to the personal life section (see same discussion for more arguments). If you guys are going to set something up, feel free to take from that discussion as you'd like. Nick845 (talk) 02:07, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

THey should be in the lede. Anderson Cooper stated that the sexual assault allegations against Trump--in the form of the Billy Bush tape and the accusers--were the most covered issue of the campaign. Steeletrap (talk) 07:45, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Certainly belongs in the article intro, as the focus on his assault allegations are increasing by the day. Particularly in the wake of yesterday's tweet suggesting Senator Gillibrand would be a whore for campaign cash... Trump attacks Gillibrand in tweet critics say is sexually suggestive and demeaning. TheValeyard (talk) 17:15, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Yeah that is not what the tweet or source says. Might even be a BLP vio. Perhaps you should reconsider what you wrote there. PackMecEng (talk) 17:17, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

I know how to read. Do you? The passage in question, "...and would do anything for them..." has been characterized as sexually suggestive by critics, which the source has covered. TheValeyard (talk) 17:34, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Yup I can read just fine, do you understand WP:OR and that DS extends to talk pages? Because it certainly does not seem like it. Especially when you are putting words in their mouth calling people whores. PackMecEng (talk) 17:44, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

My view is that there’s an imminent court decision coming soon about whether the defamation case of Summer Zervos will go forward in state court. I suggest we wait for that upcoming decision, because it makes no sense to haggle about what (if anything) should go into this lead when it’s inevitably going to have to be changed soon, one way or another. Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:31, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

There will continue to be something just over the horizon for some time. That nothing should be added until it's no longer subject to update is a really weak argument, considering that we are constantly editing the lead. But you are free to !vote No in the upcoming RfC, there is no rule against weak arguments. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:49, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

If there is to be an RfC I very much believe the BLP noticeboard should be notified as BLP issues are certainly involved. Personally, at this point, I think the existing five (?) paragraph lede may well be already overbalanced with three of those paragraphs dealing with his presidency. Should that to my eyes obvious violation of WP:WEIGHT be found acceptable, maybe the allegations might merit inclusion, but if there is in the eyes of enough others agreement with me on that point that would change things. On that basis, I might propose the RfC raise two questions, one regarding proportional WEIGHT in the lede and a second contingent question regarding the allegations. John Carter (talk) 21:56, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

I strongly oppose further complication of this issue, as we already have enough complication to deal with, and I would suggest that you (1) !vote (or abstain) with the assumption that the lead will remain basically the same as to weight considerations, being the product of much discussion by many experienced editors, and (2) optionally start your own RfC about that. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:03, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

RfC framing

I'm interested in opinions about my framing in my sandbox. I see nothing wrong with the general question, leaving the specifics for a separate discussion, but some editors call "Malformed RfC question!" when you're not specific. "I can't !vote Yes when I don't know what content would be added." Then, when you're specific, many of the !votes are Opposes that propose a different specific, and consensus for any one specific is impossible. Comments? ―Mandruss ☎ 19:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Probably need another RfC if this one closes as including it, to selected a wording among possibilities. Galobtter (pingó mió) 19:12, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

I understand. Still, no matter what you say in the RfC opener, many editors will respond with "I can't !vote Yes when I don't know what content would be added." Combined with other No !votes, there will likely be enough of that to kill a Yes consensus. If the Yes consensus is killed, there is no follow-on RfC. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:16, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Yeah that could happen. Should define what you mean by mention a little more clearly I reckon though. I assume it means close to "Many allegations of sexual misconduct have been made against him". Galobtter (pingó mió) 19:24, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't get the feeling that anyone would advocate more than a relatively simple, short, one-sentence mention of the allegations in the lead (certainly I wouldn't). Thus I think it would be a good thing if the RfC included in some way a proposed wording, such as "several women have accused him of sexual misconduct." Can we have two questions at the same time, a general question and a proposed wording? If the proposed wording is relatively uncontroversial, it would seem more efficient. --Tataral (talk) 19:43, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

If we move in the direction of specific, is there a reason not to go all the way? It's far more than several, and I would suggest "Since the 1980s, at least fifteen women have accused him of sexual misconduct." I'll await other comments on two questions at the same time. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:50, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Of course some (perhaps many) editors will Oppose the above unless it also mentions his blanket denial and counter-accusations of politically-motivated lying, per NPOV. Before long, it's too long for the lead. And so it goes. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:56, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

”Since the 1980s” is misleading (unintentionally no doubt). All of the accusations became public after he started his 2016 campaign, except for two (by Ivana Trump and Jill Harth) that were withdrawn. Also, it could easily be rephrased with zero additional words to include his denial. For example: “Since 2016, numerous women have accused him of sexual misconduct, which he has denied." Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:59, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

"Numerous" is well known for causing problems. In this context, it could reasonably be interpreted as anything from 5 to 200, and is therefore too vague. "Since 2016, more than one dozen women have accused him of sexual misconduct, which he has denied." I tried hard to find a way to express that the alleged incidents span several decades, but that introduced its own ambiguity, implying that all the women alleged incidents spanning several decades. Concise is the enemy of accurate. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:03, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

"Since 2016, more than one dozen women have accused him of sexual misconduct, which he has denied" looks like a good wording for the proposal. --Tataral (talk) 21:06, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Ok, with that endorsement and a "thanks" from Anythingyouwant, I have updated the sandbox accordingly. Let's wait a day or two for more comments here, as framing is critical. You still need to fill in the "background" part, which could largely be copy-and-paste from your opening post in this discussion. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:20, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

I would tweak it a little bit: "During 2016, about 15 women accused him of sexual misconduct years earlier, which he denied." That packs in more info with fewer words. But like I said, my view is that it's premature for us to make such an edit to the lead given that we'll know very soon whether there will be a case in state court or not. If such a case is rejected or postponed until after his presidency, then I'd leave all this stuff out of the lead. But otherwise it probably would need to be in the lead and phrased differently. Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:42, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Given that there are ongoing accusations right now and that this is very much an ongoing issue which has been gaining much steam in the last week (see the links I posted) I think "since 2016" is better than "during 2016." Also, I'm not quite sure about the "years earlier" part; while perhaps technically correct it places a lot of emphasis on the fact that the more serious accusations relate to events from "long ago" and thus gives the impression that this is a matter that is mainly related to a long gone past, but the Donald Trump and Billy Bush recording where he discusses his habit of assaulting women isn't that old, being from the 2000s, and more to the point, his behaviour towards women is very much a current issue, which is the main reason it gets the attention that it does. Perhaps instead: "Since 2016, about 15 women have accused him of previous sexual misconduct, which he denied". Also, regarding the number 15, I'm not sure that we need the exact number in the lead, partly because it could change. So "several" or "over a dozen" would be good alternatives in my opinion. --Tataral (talk) 15:51, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

To get an idea of how to include this type of content in the lede, take a look at the last paragraph of the Bill Cosby article. Otherwise, a basic rule of thumb: If it deserves a section, then it must be mentioned in the lede. The weight is determined by the weight in the article, and if most of it has been spun-off into a large subarticle, then the size of that article, not the little mention left behind, determines the weight. This subject has great weight, not only because of how controversial it is, but by Trump's playboy life, a big part of his reputation.

Failure to include this content violates NPOV through use of editorial censorship guided by personal opinions, feelings, morals, etc. Stay neutral by leaving those things behind, looking at the content, and just DOING IT. It's supposed to be a cold, calculated, neutral decision. NPOV does not refer to neutral content, but to neutral editors. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:47, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

@BullRangifer: Ok, you're arguing for inclusion, which is fine. Some of us including me feel it's largely a waste of time to have that discussion outside of an RfC. At this point, particularly in this subsection, we're trying to nail down exactly how to frame such an RfC, and that seems to be stalled. Do you have an opinion that might help move things forward? ―Mandruss ☎ 21:58, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Don't you love meta-bike sheds? — JFG 23:10, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

What would you suggest as the alternative? ―Mandruss ☎ 04:00, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree with you that discussions on the merits are unproductive outside a proper RfC context. If I were in your shoes, I would just boldly start the RfC… I'm afraid I have no helpful opinion on how to frame the question, though. This subject has been very touchy. For the humour-impaired, this pun was intended. — JFG 09:57, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

I've been intending to start one, it's just that I haven't had the time to get it done yet. Unless someone else does, I expect to start an RfC in a day or two. I think we have more or less agreed on a proposed wording, and that it's now a matter of small details. Possibly the RfC could indicate that the exact wording isn't set in stone; the main point should be to agree in principle that this material should be mentioned in some way. --Tataral (talk) 04:10, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

- Good luck. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:10, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

I checked out the draft page and I would oppose the sentence as it's currently written, as it doesn't fit anywhere in the current lead without being jarring to the reader. You might consider, instead of trying to make RfC respondents agree on a specific wording, simply ask if the Lead should make short mention of the accusations, and then if the response is yes, try to come up with a sentence (or better yet a half sentence) that works. ~Awilley (talk) 06:35, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

In principle I too would prefer a more general question. The lead currently isn't very well structured and in any event we will probably continue to make significant edits to it in the time to come. Therefore a more general decision is preferable in my view, while the exact wording and its placement in the lead should ideally be considered somewhat flexible, so that it can be integrated in the lead in a good way. But Mandruss suggested that people tend to complain if one doesn't propose a specific wording. Would a workable compromise be to phrase the main question in a general way as you suggest, and then propose a wording that should only be considered tentative? --Tataral (talk) 23:30, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Taken out upon RFC discussions re UNDUE and LEDE

This again ??? It was unstable 14 Oct 2016- 14 Nov 2016, and been taken out of lede since then due to RFC failing to get consensus, as the remover carefully said.

The minor event of 4 accusers had a PR appearance may be put to Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations, but is not significant there, let alone to this article or making a noticeable effect on his life -- he did get elected anyway for example.

To quote from when the question last re-re-returned ... Archive 46 ...

Tataral - to answer the initial question -- you're mistaken, the RFC consensus process ran against keeping this in the lead, it is in the template top for many Trump articles and in a lower subsection for this biographical article. It was discussed repeatedly, but in particular see Archive 31 and the Archive 35 entries. Th Sandstein note mentions reconsidering it again "after some time". Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:29, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Cheers again Markbassett (talk) 01:48, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

"No consensus" is not the same as "consensus to omit", and they should not be treated the same. There is nothing wrong with trying again and again until a consensus is reached either way. Sandstein's full comment, dated 13 Nov 2016 (13 months ago): "I therefore recommend that the discussion is repeated after some time to determine whether the issue is still considered to be of lead-worthy importance after the election." It's now after the election, and 13 months is easily "some time". Thus, Sandstein recommends this RfC. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:59, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

However, given that there have been several other events relevant to the subject in the past year, and the fact that there was no positive position of support roughly a year ago, before all the actions of his presidency and other areas getting attention, I believe it is in no way complicating things to ensure that the lede is found to be compliant with policy and guidelines in all ways, not just the one you are primarily interested. John Carter (talk) 02:37, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

13 months have passed since that debate, as noted by M, and we have seen sustained controversy related to this/coverage in RS. Only this week there have been hundreds and hundreds of newspaper articles about it. Just from the last few hours:

• Trump lashes out at senator amid calls to resign over sexual misconduct allegations, CNN
• Trump attacks senator and dismisses sexual harassment claims as Democratic conspiracy, The Guardian
• Trump’s Combative Denials Again Draw Him Into the Sexual Harassment Debate, The New York Times
• Lawmakers seek probe into alleged Trump sexual assaults, AJE
• Donald Trump Just Claimed He Never Met Women Accusing Him of Sexual Harassment. That's Not True, TIME
• How to handle the sexual misconduct accusations against Trump, Washington Post
• Trump accusers: Who are the women at the centre of sexual harassment allegations against the US President?, The Independent
• Democratic women unite on demand to investigate Trump: Nearly all of the women in the House Democratic Caucus on Tuesday called for the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee to investigate allegations that President Trump engaged in sexual misconduct before winning the White House, The Hill
• From 'locker room talk' on, Trump fends off misconduct claims, Politico
• Trump is reportedly furious at UN ambassador Nikki Haley for saying his accusers 'should be heard', Associated Press
• Trump's Own Department of Justice Will Decide Whether to Investigate Him for Alleged Sexual Misconduct, Newsweek
• White House Presents Weak Witnesses To Defend Trump From Sexual Harassment, Assault Claims, Newsweek
• Trump Blames Democrats for Fueling Sexual Abuse Claims, Voice of America
• Lawmakers seek probe into alleged Trump sexual assaults, AJE
• Trump allies worried about political costs of attacking his accusers: report
• The list goes on and on, even when only looking at coverage from the last 24 hours ...

Since the last time we debated this Trump has supported a far-right white supremacist candidate to the senate who is best known for the extensive allegations of sexual abuse made against him (the allegations against him are mentioned in the lead section of his biography, even though the allegations against Trump have received probably a hundred times more coverage in RS).

It's quite clear that there aren't any policy-based reasons not to include this issue, the most widely covered issue related to Trump, in the lead. --Tataral (talk) 04:26, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Al Jazeera is a reliable source now... 70.44.154.16 (talk) 05:03, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

As a person who opposes inclusion: I see no reason to oppose having another RFC on this topic at this time. I repeat that I am not impressed by the list of news stories, and will continue to not be impressed no matter how many links in CNN, Politico, etc. are presented. power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:30, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Power~enwiki I'm just wondering what it would take for you to be convinced - would it be books about his life giving it a lot of weight? Galobtter (pingó mió) 16:17, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

I doubt any references will convince me at this time, unless there's new information that emerges (not just more coverage of the same stories as before). power~enwiki (π, ν) 16:28, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Re "I doubt any references will convince me": That's fair enough, but you do realize that in that case we don't have to take your opinions on the matter into account, given that Misplaced Pages is based on the coverage in reliable sources, and not on our personal beliefs, e.g. about whether the coverage in RS is justified/fair/correct etc.? --Tataral (talk) 17:57, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't care if the Washington Post runs "Trump Sexual Harassment" as the A1 story for a month; if the news stories repeat the same coverage and there's no actual new news, it's not going in the lede based on "OMG so much coverage". Misplaced Pages articles are based on reliable sources, but this is ultimately an encyclopedia, not a dictatorship of vote-counting through links to web pages. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:28, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Put it in...it self evident that these allegations are relevant 2602:306:BD95:45F0:E45C:E70A:D878:7C31 (talk) 21:30, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

With this extensively disputed and having no apparent political or other impact, what would the lede say? Just as a practical matter, it seems to me that this would suck up a huge amount of editor resources that are more urgently needed to work on NPOV wording and sourcing throughout this article. SPECIFICO talk 22:11, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

what would the lede say? - Aren't we discussing exactly that in the preceding subsection? ―Mandruss ☎ 22:30, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Nothing significant has happened - since the last RFC took it out for UNDUE and LEAD, so no reason for a new RFC. Look, this article is WP:BLP and focuss on his life story -- and really this simply made no big impact to his life so it's just not deserving prominence. The guidance for WP:BLP is also to be restrained -- not to be a tabloid putting up WP:SENSATION or WP:SCANDAL. Given that the last comparison is Bill Clinton where lead mentions none of the accused rape, affair/stalking with settlement, infamous blue dress but only mentions the impeachment due to perjury ... I think this is just wasting time. This is still failing UNDUE and LEDE as before because really nothing significant has changed. Markbassett (talk) 03:23, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

We are all volunteers and free to waste our time as we see fit. You are not required to waste any more of yours. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:12, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Actually, just as a point of information, as per WP:DE and WP:TE, we are actually not all free to spend our time here entirely as we see fit, particularly as this page almost certainly qualifies for discretionary sanctions as per at least WP:ARBAP2. John Carter (talk) 01:44, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

I am well aware that editors are not free to violate DE, TE, BLP, NOTFORUM, and various other things. I considered spending the time to make that comment 100% accurate, but I decided to give my audience credit for not taking everything so literally. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:28, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support running an RfC. It's probably a good time to test the consensus again. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:59, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
• Support an RfC. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:34, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose wasting further time debating whether we should use the RfC process to (try to) decide a question that is clearly worthy of RfC. This is a near-comical example of How To Get Nothing Done. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:06, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
• Just do it. You don't have to hold an RfC to see if you can hold an RfC (though thanks for asking). Volunteer Marek 06:50, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose nothing notable has happened since then and now to warrant a new RFC. 70.44.154.16 (talk) 08:26, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose it is true that a person doesn't need to have agreement for an RfC, but some might raise DE or TE concerns if they seem an RfC has been originated without sufficient cause. I doubt anything of substance would be done to the originator the first time, but worst-case-scenario it might become significant should any sort of second mistake of that broad type be made. And frankly I don't know that the limited consensus of a smallish number of respondents, if such a consensus were even reached, would necessarily trump BLP concerns anyway. John Carter (talk)£
• Comment: Although it's nice to see that there is consensus for holding an RfC, we aren't really having an RfC over whether to hold an RfC. An RfC will be initiated eventually, probably this week, once discussion of how to frame it has been ended or no longer serves a meaningful purpose. --Tataral (talk) 11:37, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
• Support as a person who is almost certainly going to oppose the RfC, I do encourage you to start it. I won't be online for about ten days to comment (likely in opposition), but there's clearly enough support to litigate this topic again. power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:09, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
• Support I have proposed new text below, with plenitude of references. Are those who oppose this being in the lead joking? Find another article about someone accused of sexual harassment where it isn't in the lead. Profane Username (talk) 23:15, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Proposed Text, with references

"Trump has been accused of sexual misconduct by 19 women.  Although Trump has denied the allegations, polls show most Americans believe the allegations are true.  At least 8 U.S. Senators have called on Trump to resign over the allegations. 

References

1. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/11/us/politics/trump-accused-sexual-misconduct.html
2. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/what-happened-to-trumps-16-sexual-misconduct-accusers.html
3. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/what-about-the-19-women-who-accused-trump/547724/
4. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-sexual-assault-allegations-claims-women-how-many-groping-accused-us-president-a8091581.html
5. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/a-running-list-of-the-women-whove-accused-donald-trump-of-sexual-misconduct_us_57ffae1fe4b0162c043a7212
6. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/nov/30/donald-trump-sexual-misconduct-allegations-full-list
7. http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-rape-sexual-assault-minor-wife-business-victims-roy-moore-713531
8. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/12/us/politics/trump-blames-democrats-for-false-accusations-from-women.html
9. http://time.com/5077256/donald-trump-sexual-allegations-poll/
10. http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/11/politics/booker-merkley-trump-resignation/index.html
11. http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/12/politics/trump-resignation-senators/index.html
12. http://www.newsweek.com/whos-running-president-2020-look-no-further-lawmakers-calling-trump-resign-749901
13. http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/365016-van-hollen-calls-for-trump-to-resign
14. https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/14/kamala-harris-trump-should-resign-296082
15. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-resign-us-president-sexual-harassment-allegations-accusers-women-a8110676.html
16. http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/12/politics/trump-tweet-sexual-misconduct-russia/index.html

• 'Support As nom. Crystalline prose, cuts through the hazy fog and delivers knowledge to our readers. There is no reasonable argument to not include this in the lead, other than "It makes someone I genuflect towards look bad! Keep it out!" Profane Username (talk) 23:25, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. For starters, in matters of criminal law, polls are irrelevant. Number two, you conveniently omit the party affiliation of the Senators. Number three, as I’ve said before, I am watching to see whether there will be a trial in court about this involving Summer Zervos, and a decision on that is imminent. Number five, see the Bill Clinton lead, etc. Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:00, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Comment Thanks for the input. I am comfortable changing it to 8 democratic U.S. Senators, if people would prefer. We can also cut the polls part if people find it irrelevant. Also, Clinton lead does mention the "sex scandal;" I'm not clear on the point there. Profane Username (talk) 04:02, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

The Clinton lead does not mention any of the Bill Clinton sexual misconduct allegations. Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:25, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

It mentions the Lewinsky scandal and impeachment in the lead. Maybe it should mention a little more, but no more than a sentence. Try the format I suggest below. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:51, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Lewinsky was consenting adults and is not included in Bill Clinton sexual misconduct allegations. Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:57, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Actually she is mentioned there. Some of the women mentioned in the misconduct article were also consensual relationships. I think we should keep the Lewinsky mention because of its significance. It led to an impeachment. Then add one more sentence in the same format as I propose below for Trump. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:10, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support short mention per our rules for a lede. As a rule of thumb, every subject worthy of a section should receive short mention in the lead. This is one of them. I suggest only the first sentence and denial, not the polls or rest. Also bundle the refs (not done here):

• "Trump has been accused of sexual misconduct by 19 women, and he has denied the allegations.

It should obviously be tweaked and lengthened if anything more comes of it, such as legal convictions or settlements. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:51, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

References

1. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/11/us/politics/trump-accused-sexual-misconduct.html
2. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/what-happened-to-trumps-16-sexual-misconduct-accusers.html
3. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/what-about-the-19-women-who-accused-trump/547724/
4. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-sexual-assault-allegations-claims-women-how-many-groping-accused-us-president-a8091581.html
5. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/a-running-list-of-the-women-whove-accused-donald-trump-of-sexual-misconduct_us_57ffae1fe4b0162c043a7212
6. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/nov/30/donald-trump-sexual-misconduct-allegations-full-list
7. http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-rape-sexual-assault-minor-wife-business-victims-roy-moore-713531

There are no footnotes in the lead, so I don’t see why we should start now. Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:40, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

We don't have to use footnotes. I just copied what was written above. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:35, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support This is obvious, and no one throughout any of these discussions has made anything even approaching a persuasive point in opposition. It's getting absurd, really. Nick845 (talk) 05:30, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose The lede should serve as a general introduction as to why the subject is notable and the allegations have had no effect on his career. There's very little information about the allegations in this article, in fact this proposal would add more detail to the lede than currently appears in the rest of the article! Per WP:LEAD, everything mentioned in the lede should be sourced in the body and nothing regarding public response or senators asking for his resignation appears in the article. Should he resign, or should there be major developments with the Summer Zervos lawsuit, we should reassess. See this similar RfC regarding Al Franken, which largely decided not to include the allegations until they actually did affect his career.LM2000 (talk) 06:16, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

• Generally speaking, the weight of the subject determines how much space we use in the lead. "Sexual misconduct allegations" is a nice sized summary of MULTIPLE sub-articles, and their weight and size should be factored in, not just the summary left behind in this article.

  The effect on his career is a rather irrelevant red herring. A man of his wealthy can get away with just about anything. He has stated that he could shoot (MURDER!) someone on Fifth Avenue and he wouldn't lose any supporters, a small minority of Americans. He's really saying that the murder would have NO EFFECT on his career, at least with that small minority. That's proving to be true, but it still has a great effect on his reputation with the vast majority of Americans and the rest of the world, so it actually does have an effect on his career. Payback just comes later for him. Karma is on its way. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:50, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

• As discussed in the previous discussion on this issue, most of that section is about the fallout from the Billy Bush tape, which has not been proposed to be included here. I'll wait for Karma to catch up before I switch my !vote, as I did with Franken.LM2000 (talk) 07:05, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

I would rather put child-out-of-wedlock into the BLPs of Pres. Warren Harding and Thomas Jefferson since there’s actual conclusive proof. In contrast, these accusations regarding Trump never have been verified in court. That’s why I am waiting to see about the Summer Zervos case. Don’t rush karma. Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:21, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Whether or not it ends up in court only affects how we report it. We still report it. That's what we do. We report allegations, verified or not. -- BullRangifer (talk) 07:30, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

It appears that both articles follow policy very nicely:

Harding's extramarital affairs are mentioned in a nice section: Warren G. Harding#Extramarital affairs, and in the lead.

Jefferson's affair with Sally Hemmings is likewise mentioned in a nice section: Thomas Jefferson#Jefferson–Hemings controversy, and in the lead. -- BullRangifer (talk) 07:38, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

The Harding lead doesn’t say anything about children out of wedlock. Fine if it did though. Do you understand why? Because the facts are known. With Trump, a woman who never met him can tell a reporter in 2016 that she did meet him in 1985 on a date, and he touched her shoulder without explicit permission, or said something inappropriate, and wham she’s into the lead of his Misplaced Pages article. In contrast, there’s potentially an actual court case coming up soon, so why not wait and see what happens with that? I never remotely suggested we shouldn’t cover this stuff, but that can be done later than the lead. Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:50, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Oh, no. Not at all. We don't get into that kind of detail in the lead. The fact that a president has been accused by multiple women is very notable, has its own section, and multiple sub-articles. That's good enough for short mention in the lead, but usually not for listing the women and all the charges. We write a short summary, and readers can read the article for the details.

As far as Trump's well-known and highly publicized adulterous affairs while married, literally bragging/admitting/confessing his actual and repeated practice for many years of grabbing women by the pussy, and multiple women confirming he did it to them, and they didn't like it, that's very different than your weird and unreal scenario of some woman he's never met falsely accusing him. Not only do we not have or know of such cases, if we did they obviously don't "wham she’s into the lead of his Misplaced Pages article". They would not get mentioned here. You lost quite a bit of credibility with that one. Be more serious and address what he's actually done, confirmed by himself and those he did it to.

As far as court cases, those can be dealt with as they come. Some may be worth mention in the lead, and others not. -- BullRangifer (talk) 09:00, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

You’re suggesting that every weird and sketchy accusation go into the lead, not by name, but by increasing the number we give. For instance, his ex-wife Ivanka said some stuff in a divorce proceeding and later recanted, but we would use her to pad the number in the lead. Same with some others. Some of the accusations are more serious than others. Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:29, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is not a properly formatted RfC, it has entirely ignored all the previous discussion on how to frame the question, and I wouldn't support the proposed wording here or having 3 sentences and 16 footnotes about this in the lead. It should be just one sentence. Note that my oppose here is of a technical nature and entirely unrelated to the question of whether the abuse allegations as such should be mentioned in the lead. I will start a proper RfC later, but it was delayed due to the discussion on how to frame the question + christmas. --Tataral (talk) 05:40, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

the first without prior military or government service is too wordy

Should be replaced with without prior public service. Public service not only includes government service and military service, it also includes common public sector services such as police, firefighter, public school teacher, paramedic.

38.121.71.168 (talk) 02:24, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Global warming position

Not convinced that the section dealing with Trump's position on climate change is representative of the facts. To say that Trump does not accept the science sounds rather too legitimate, as if he has a well-considered contrary position. This is followed by a sentence which states that he said in 2012 that climate change is a hoax, but that he was joking - as if it was a mere false step, or that he has even an iota of credibility in this area whatsoever.

We know that he continued with his conspiracy theory in December 2013:

• http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/you-are-so-stupid-it-painful-trump-blasted-saying-us-could-use-good-old-global-warming-1653076

... and several times in 2014:

• https://www.snopes.com/donald-trump-global-warming-hoax/

... and in 2015 and 2016:

• http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jun/03/hillary-clinton/yes-donald-trump-did-call-climate-change-chinese-h/
• https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-symons/trump-now-blames-scientis_b_11228538.html

... and of course we have seen in the last few days of 2017 a lot of headlines about buffoonish comments on global warming thanks to some localized snowfall.

Here are some more sources, all of which describe or characterize Trump as a denialist or conspiracy theorist:

• https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/11/president-trump-global-climate-change-denial-environment/
• https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/12/donald-trump-climate-change-skeptic-denial/510359/
• https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trump-and-the-truth-climate-change-denial
• http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/37936740/what-climate-change-deniers-like-donald-trump-believe
• http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-not-deleting-climate-change-denial-tweets-despite-chinese-hoax-global-warming-claims-a7332396.html
• https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-19/how-trump-climate-denial-is-catalyzing-the-world-quicktake-q-a

There are hundreds more.

• Propose that the current formulation:

Trump does not accept the scientific consensus on climate change. In 2012, he said that global warming was a hoax invented by the Chinese, but later said that he was joking.

... should read:

Trump is a climate change denier. He has frequently expressed an opinion that climate change is a hoax or a conspiracy arranged for the economic benefit of China. Cpaaoi (talk) 12:28, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't think you'll find good enough sourcing to use the term "denier". Most reliable sources don't use that term when describing Trump and this article should reflect mainstream viewpoints. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:19, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

You mean apart from the BBC, The Independent, National Geographic, Bloomberg, The Atlantic, CBS News, Newsweek, HuffPost, The Guardian? Denying denialism? Cpaaoi (talk) 12:28, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

You didn't provide any sources to back up your claim. I checked the four listed in the OP and none of them label Trump as a "denier". But should you find any, please don't cherry-pick. Our goal is not to find the most incriminating sources and use them to write an article. Instead, Misplaced Pages articles are supposed to represent mainstream viewpoints. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:42, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

If one has many cherries, it may that one is being selective. Or one may simply be standing in a cherry-tree orchard. All the following describe Trump as denying, being a denier/denialist/disbeliever, or being considered a denier:

* https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/673005/Trump-the-climate-change-denier-Republican-hires-top-sceptic-as-energy-advisor/amp

* https://thinkprogress.org/trump-even-gets-climate-denial-wrong-889a61198961/

* http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/stasi-hurricane-trump-taps-climate-change-denier-nasa-article-1.3464200

* http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/donald-trump-myron-ebell-are-climate-deniers-dream-team-heres-why-1592338

* https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-why-trump-denies-climate-change-10677570

* https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/44720/Climate+change+denier+Donald+Trump+takes+US+out+of+Paris+climate+deal

* http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/17/beijing-to-trump-climate-change-is-not-a-chinese-hoax/

* https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2017/03/13/trumps-epa-chief-is-a-climate-change-denialist-why-is-anyone-surprised/#ecbf01822fc7

* https://friendsoftheearth.uk/climate-change/what-are-donald-trumps-policies-climate-change-and-other-environmental-issues

* https://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/09/24/donald-trump-i-dont-believe-in-climate-change/

* https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/meet-myron-ebell-the-climate-contrarian-leading-trumps-epa-transition/

* https://newrepublic.com/article/143066/trumps-cowardly-new-form-climate-change-denial

* http://prospect.org/article/will-harvey-dent-trump%E2%80%99s-climate-change-denial-probably-not

* http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/338721-bloomberg-trumps-climate-change-denial-is-embarrassing

* https://www.salon.com/2016/11/14/denying-climate-change-is-only-part-of-it-5-ways-donald-trump-spells-doom-for-the-environment_partner/

* https://www.democracynow.org/2017/7/13/donald_trump_s_climate_change_denial

* https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2017/05/09/trumps-climate-change-denial-rattles-u-s-businesses/?utm_term=.44e8ae4588c9

* http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-climate-20161127-story.html

* http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/12/trump-climate-timeline/

* https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/06/opinion/sunday/as-donald-trump-denies-climate-change-these-kids-die-of-it.html

Want more? Cpaaoi (talk) 13:09, 29 December 2017 (UTC):

The first link doesn't call Trump a denier. The second link isn't a reliable source. The third is an opinion piece and is only reliable for the opinions of its author. I stopped at that point. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:48, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Nice try. First link: "Donald Trump has cemented his stance as a ‘climate change denier’...". And I'm glad you've stopped. (But if we're focusing on opinions - as if there might be some stone tablet on which Trump is labeled a denier! - here's the opinion of Stephen Hawking:

"By denying the evidence for climate change, and pulling out of the Paris Climate Agreement, Donald Trump will cause avoidable environmental damage to our beautiful planet, endangering the natural world, for us and our children." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-40461726.) Cpaaoi (talk) 14:03, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) OK, that makes one out of seven (assuming the Express counts as a reliable source and not an opinion piece). Either way, your own sources are proof that that term is not widely used by reliable sources. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:09, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Again, the BBC article you provide says no such thing. That's a quote from (apparently) Stephen Hawking, not BBC News. You are now 1 for 8. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:12, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

I have no idea how you are scoring this. Interesting that you first said that the article should represent "mainstream viewpoints", but are now dismissing "mainstream viewpoints" as opinion. Are we trying to have it both ways? Anyway, I thought you stopped? Cpaaoi (talk) 14:14, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Cpaaoi, I agree with the general point you're trying to make. I think you can avoid the argument you're in by using: Trump does not accept the scientific consensus on climate change. He has frequently expressed an opinion that climate change is a hoax or a conspiracy arranged for the economic benefit of China. O3000 (talk) 14:21, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

I think your version would certainly be an improvement, O3000. I would personally still cleave to denier; if it walks like a denier and it quacks like a denier (and lots of journalists and commentators call it a denier) then it is probably a denier. But that's why I'm asking for opinions here; I'll step back and see what others say. Cpaaoi (talk) 14:32, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Cpaaoi: Simple: I am looking for third-party reliable sources which call Trump a denier. Non-reliable sources don't count. Opinion pieces don't count. Quotes don't count. I'm looking for actually, bona-fide news coverage from respected news sources.

Keep in mind that "denier" is a word to watch and a contentious label. It should only be used when widely used by reliable sources. Quite honestly, it's not widely used by reliable sources and therefore shouldn't be used in this article.

If you want to make another suggestion that doesn't use "denier", go ahead. Until then I see this as a non-starter. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:26, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

You've got two long lists above. I'm not going to go further with you, A Quest For Knowledge. WP:LISTEN Cpaaoi (talk) 14:32, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm a volunteer. I don't get paid to check your sources. All I can say is that I checked 8 that you provided, and at best, only one supports your argument. You need to prove that it's widely used. Instead, your own sources are evidence that it's not widely used. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:37, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

You may find difficulty getting anyone to look through your list. I saw in the titles socialistworkerparty, stevensalzberg, blogs, and opinion and didn’t bother clicking on the links. Better to have a shorter list of better sources. I also think using labels will result in a year of reverts and arguments. The text can be strengthened without using a contentious label. Also, keep in mind that accusations of WP:DE can be DE. O3000 (talk) 14:44, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, most of those sources are either unreliable or opinion articles. Most of the sources by mainstream publications like the NYT or WSJ are blogs and opinion articles they decided to publish. I really hope you (Cpaaoi) didn't expect to convince anyone through the socialistworkerparty, Mother Jones, Think Progress, Salon, etc., links. --1990'sguy (talk) 22:30, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose proposed change. I honestly don't see the proposed revised text as any improvement on what is already in the article. Even though Trump is clearly a climate change denier, it is going to be very difficult to organize a consensus around calling Trump a "climate change denier" in Misplaced Pages's voice. The existing text makes his nonsensical position quite clear, and I feel that is sufficient. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:24, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
• I don't think the proposed sentence is an improvement and labeling someone like that isn't very encyclopedic. However looking at the current sentence makes me want to replace "does not accept" with "rejects". ~Awilley (talk) 20:50, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Replacing "does not accept" with "rejects" would be fine with me. I'm tempted to make the change myself, but it's probably better to get more feedback given that this is a contentious topic. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:27, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
    • "Rejects" is a YUGE improvement. I would see such a change as a non-controversial improvement to the language. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:51, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Proposed change to Alma mater naming convention

Hi all, I'm proposing a change to the wording of the Alma mater that was decided as per Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 56#Universities in infobox. I mainly came across this as a Wharton undergraduate alumnus myself, who noticed the odd naming convention used for the infobox's Alma mater section.

Currently, it's displaying as "The Wharton School", which is not the proper name of the university that President Trump graduated from. Instead, Wharton is a school within the University of Pennsylvania. I propose that we spell out both Wharton and the University of Pennsylvania in the combined format, "Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania".

Some supporting reasons for this change:

1. The degree conferred to Wharton undergraduates is from the University of Pennsylvania
2. Penn advises its students to spell out both the University itself and the school in their resume samples -
3. If President Trump had instead attended the College of Arts and Sciences at Penn, we would not simply be writing "The College" under his Alma Mater
4. Other alumni of Wharton around Misplaced Pages either spell out the combined version with both Penn & Wharton or just write University of Pennsylvania followed by the degree in parenthesis. E.g., Elon Musk, Sundar Pichai, Jon Huntsman Sr.
5. Writing "The Wharton School" alone may be more acceptable for MBA graduates, but generally unseen for undergraduates
6. Our own article for Wharton spells out "Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania" as the page title — "The Wharton School" redirects to this page.

chsh (talk) 04:46, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

• Naming the University seems like the conventional choice. Though most universities have colleges, naming the college only seems to come up with pretentious prestigious colleges. GCG (talk) 02:39, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Proposing a change to the first sentence

As seen in other articles on US presidents, the lede begins with (name) is an American politician (and whatever else they may be) who served/is serving as the nth President of the United States (from x to y).

Example 1: Ronald Wilson Reagan (/ˈreɪɡən/; February 6, 1911 – June 5, 2004) was an American politician and actor who served as the 40th President of the United States from 1981 to 1989. Example 2: William Jefferson Clinton (born William Jefferson Blythe III; August 19, 1946) is an American politician who served as the 42nd President of the United States from 1993 to 2001.

I am proposing that the lede be changed to:

Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, businessman and television personality who is currently serving as the 45th and current President of the United States, in office since January 20, 2017.

CatcherStorm 04:27, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, but this has been discussed here at great length, multiple times, and the current lede is the consensus version. See "Current consensus #17" at the top of this page. --MelanieN (talk) 04:50, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Agree with Melanie. I don't like the "blank who is serving as" for any sort of politician article. For example, what sounds better: "Bob Jones is a member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Texas's 1st district" or "Bob Jones is an American Republican Party politician who is currently serving as the U.S. Representative from Texas's 1st district"? I'd go with the former. MB298 (talk) 04:57, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Consensus can change. The unusual construct we currently have is there to satisfy those editors who didn't like the idea of Trump being called a politician, even though he absolutely is. I think the proposal by CatcherStorm has merit. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:30, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

IMO it's more about repetition (I've argued the same for Obama etc). President is a title and what is most associated with Trump - should be first. Politician adds nothing to the fact that he is president. Galobtter (pingó mió) 11:41, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Disagree. A politician (in elected democracies, anyway) is someone who is seeking election, or has been elected to engage in political activities. Every article Misplaced Pages has on politicians refers to them as politicians except this one, and only because Trump doesn't like to be thought of as a politician and so editors who are (mostly) of a certain political persuasion have seen to it that the article reflects his wishes. In the future, I have no doubt the article will be normalized and this nonsensical situation will end. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:15, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - For each example precedent supporting the change, I have no doubt I could find at least one not supporting it, and there is no real need for inter-article consistency here. I'm not aware of any guideline support for that rationale, and that's not likely to be an oversight by the community. One could make a decent argument that this kind of consistency would be dry and boring for readers. We might as well propose that all sentences should have the same length. So I tend to discount such "appeals to precedent".
  While consensus can change, I don't see any new argument, certainly not enough new argument to revisit this so soon simply because we might get a different result with a different mix of participants. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:07, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

@Mandruss: See the ledes of Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George H. W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon, Lyndon B. Johnson, and John F. Kennedy. They all refer to them as American politicians, until around Dwight D. Eisenhower. I believe this is because they were modern-era presidents, as Trump is. I think we should involve Misplaced Pages:WikiProject United States Presidents in this discussion. CatcherStorm 19:55, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

• Support Its not just American presidents. Theresa May, Emmanuel Macron, Angela Merkel, Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping, & Justin Trudeau all use this style.GCG (talk) 02:25, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

RfC: Sexual misconduct allegations in the lead

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Biographies Politics, government, and law When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Should the lead include mention of the allegations of sexual misconduct on Trump's part? --Tataral (talk) 08:02, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

If yes, I tentatively propose the wording "Since 2016, about 15 women have accused him of previous sexual misconduct, which he denied", but I would like to note that the exact wording shouldn't be considered to be set in stone, and that we might need to adjust it as things develop.

If you agree in principle with the proposal to include mention of the allegations but do not support the exact wording proposed above, you may support the proposal but indicate that you don't support the exact wording proposed – if necessary we will have a new discussion or RfC about the exact wording.

Rationale for the proposal

The sexual misconduct allegations against Donald Trump were the most widely covered issue in reliable sources during the presidential election. The issue continues to receive extensive coverage in reliable sources, more than a full year later. Its importance is highlighted by the fact that the coverage of the allegations against Trump are linked to a broader discussion of sexual misconduct in society. For examples of recent sources, I refer to the previous discussion we had on this. During his presidential term so far, the sexual misconduct allegations are, next to the Russia issue, clearly the single most covered issue related to Trump in reliable sources, possibly the most covered issue.

As a rule of thumb, any issue worthy of an in-depth stand-alone article should be considered notable enough for at least a brief mention in the lead section of the main article on the relevant subject. The misconduct allegations have such an in-depth stand-alone article, Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations. --Tataral (talk) 08:02, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Survey: Sexual misconduct allegations in the lead

Yes – include in the lead
No – do not include in the lead

• Yes, per the rationale above. --Tataral (talk) 08:20, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
• No. Insignificant in relation to the rest of activities. Should he face impeachment or significant legal action this may be different. RfC is not neutrally worded.Icewhiz (talk) 13:30, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
• Yes to the idea, but no to the proposed wording. It is very well reported that Trump has been accused by multiple people on multiple occasions, but the dating and number of accusations I don't think are appropriate. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 14:00, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
• Yes to the idea, but no to the proposed wording (yes, there's an echo in here). I'm uncomfortable with the lede having things like "about 15 women" in it, because it sounds vague. My preferred text would be something like this: "Trump has been credibly accused of sexual misconduct, which he has denied." I use "credibly" because the Access Hollywood tape has him admitting it. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:45, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Discussion: Sexual misconduct allegations in the lead

Process discussion: SMAITL

Tataral The background section just seems to be your rationale and so should be part of your "yes" !vote Galobtter (pingó mió) 10:11, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

I don't see why. The background section is one particular's editor's proposal (or rationale for the proposal which is the subject of the RfC) which other editors are free to agree or disagree with. It's not supposed to be "neutral". In any event, the particular structure of the RfC was discussed for almost a month (with a draft found here User:Mandruss/sandbox) before it was started with no objection to that. --Tataral (talk) 12:38, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

All of the text preceding the first recognizable signature is copied to the RfC listings. That part should be a concise and neutral statement of the question or proposal. I've taken the liberty of copying your signature above and the listings should be updated by the bot within an hour. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:13, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

After reviewing WP:RFC and the essay WP:WRFC, I think this is a case where common practice has diverged from the guidelines. As I'm philosophically opposed to that, I now agree that your rationale should be moved to your !vote. Apologies for the bad steer. Although not technically necessary, I would add another sig following your instructions. When this is resolved, this discussion can be collapsed as "Process discussion". ―Mandruss ☎ 14:01, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Yup, that's why I was asking him to move it. Doesn't make sense to privilege one rationale to appear at the top. Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:09, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

@Galobtter: So in your view a 3-word "Support as proposer" !vote would be improper in an RfC? It requires that the proposer's rationale has been previously stated; otherwise it's a vote, not a !vote. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:29, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, would be improper I think, better to have the rationale with the !vote. I think this is mostly needed when it is formatted like this, with a seperate sections for the survey and what not. Could confuse/mislead people (inexperienced users etc) to have that there. Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:48, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're saying after the first sentence, but I'll read that as a "yes". I have no problem with that, but it confirms that "common practice has diverged from the guidelines." I see "Support as proposer" all the time, including from many very experienced editors. The RfC Reform Movement starts here. ;) ―Mandruss ☎ 14:54, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

I can't say I've seen a lot of "support as proposer" !votes in RfCs. TONS of them in AfDs, however. What bugs me the most is how RfCs are now being used at the first introduction of an idea, rather than as a way to resolve deadlocks, etc. This is particularly a problem in politics-related articles. Why wasn't this proposal introduced in "regular order" (or whatever you want to call it)? -- Scjessey (talk) 15:01, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Huh? This has been discussed multiple times before (recently too), with a mixed response. Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:08, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Mandruss more offtopic stuff but people also forget that there's no requirement for RfCs to run 30 days and so much more.. Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:08, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Scjessey, there is some discussion still on this page, and it's been discussed before. I think experience tells us that RfCs are more likely to produce a clear consensus than open discussion, anyway. If we go straight to RfC, we're just saving a ton of time in many cases. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:11, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

I think that is a function of how polarized editors have become. More or less every discussion in the US politics topic is now a form of dispute resolution. This is a relatively new development - RfC's were considered one of the last resorts as recently as a couple of years ago. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:15, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm quite ok with new developments. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:21, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

We have had endless discussions on this issue, including most recently nearly a full month of discussion on whether to have an RfC. --Tataral (talk) 15:51, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class biography articles
• B-Class biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Mid-importance biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Arts and entertainment work group articles
• B-Class biography (politics and government) articles
• Top-importance biography (politics and government) articles
• Politics and government work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• B-Class WikiProject Business articles
• Mid-importance WikiProject Business articles
• WikiProject Business articles
• B-Class New York City articles
• High-importance New York City articles
• WikiProject New York City articles
• B-Class politics articles
• Mid-importance politics articles
• B-Class American politics articles
• Top-importance American politics articles
• American politics task force articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• B-Class United States articles
• Top-importance United States articles
• B-Class United States articles of Top-importance
• B-Class American television articles
• Mid-importance American television articles
• American television task force articles
• B-Class United States presidential elections articles
• Top-importance United States presidential elections articles
• WikiProject United States presidential elections articles
• B-Class United States Presidents articles
• High-importance United States Presidents articles
• WikiProject United States Presidents articles
• B-Class United States Government articles
• High-importance United States Government articles
• WikiProject United States Government articles
• WikiProject United States articles
• Former good article nominees
• Spoken Misplaced Pages requests
• Misplaced Pages articles that use American English
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press
• Misplaced Pages requests for comment