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Message Page for Conrad Dunkerson (CBDunkerson)

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Hope your not too busy...

I saw you had some recent trouble on WP:AN/I, so I hope you're not too busy to help an ex-admin, admin-hating, user. I've been blocked on my current account under the most ridiculous of accusations, for 48 hours no less, for merely stating my case on WP:AN/I and insisting sources be cited. I'd appreciate an unblocking so I can start an RFC, but if you're reluctant to help out the infamous... I understand. -Freestylefrappe

You've gathered quite a following, CBD. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 04:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the assistance thus far. Unfortunately, the version you have reverted to on Vicente Fox has vandalism on it - some anon inserted "blah blah blah." Before I am blocked again, please either provide an email or email me at danofalltrades7@hotmail.com. I have some diffs I'd like to show you. I know I'm not supposed to evade a block, but since my talkpage on User:Ya ya ya ya ya ya is protected I have no way of conversing with you. Please unprotect that so I can communicate with users. I promise to remain as civil as can be expected given the circumstances. Regards, Freestylefrappe/Republitarian/KI/Tchadienne/NOBS/Republitarian (freestylefrappe 20:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC))

Quenya on Misplaced Pages

Hey CBD!

Since you have Category:User que on your userpage, I thought perhaps you'd be interested in expanding the test Misplaced Pages in Quenya, located here. Best, Firsfron of Ronchester 06:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion about accountability of admin behaviour

Re : I would say an RfC would be best to proceed. I will countersign it if you decide to go for it. --Ligulem 09:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Just to note that I believe your view of the matter is correct. I don't buy that "don't criticise an admin's action". If I see how cases are handled by the ArbCom some admins would possibly be surprised how their behaviour would be taxed by the ArbCom. But I have no intention to blow this thing up either. I just don't like double standards. Anyway, time will tell. --Ligulem 16:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Just for your information. Pschemp simply deleted my notice on her talk (prerequisite for an RfC). Just in case you reconsider the RfC later. I made my opinion. --Ligulem 16:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

"block people for things they are doing themselves"

See, quotes like that are really not good. They really do equate long-time administrators with simple troublemakers and trolls. I know you don't have much gratitudude for what we've done, but it still hurts the project to try to drive away the people who actually contribute to it. --W.marsh 14:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Might I suggest that your time could be better spent on something other than tracking my contributions in search of things to complain about? Various admins involved in this dispute blocked for incivility and personal attacks while themselves engaging in incivility and personal attacks. It is thus unfortunately not I who equate them with "simple troublemakers and trolls" as you put it, but rather their own actions. You are entirely mistaken in your accusation that I here "try to drive away" people. I don't want anyone to leave. I just want them to understand that their actions are also going to "drive away the people who actually contribute". You know. People like Tobias Conradi? Or Masssiveego? Shouldn't we be trying to encourage them to positive action rather than deteriorating the situation further by insulting them? I have criticized you, made you angry, and crossed the line of civility as this argument has gone on and for that I do apologize. But I sincerely believe that it would be better for all involved if my 'fellow admins' would examine just how 'beneficial' to the encyclopedia their actions in these instances have really been. --CBD 15:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Meh. I do hope that some day you can see all admins, even yourself, are guilty of "abuse" and personal attacks by your standards, and that chastising them over a single incident while defending troublemakers and turning a blind eye to trolling really, really makes productive users feel bad. But I guess we're really never going to agree on this. See you around. --W.marsh 15:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

For the record, CBD, I totally agree with your point on AN/I that admins just shouldn't get by with making personal attacks because they are admins. It doesn't matter if they "contribute heavily" to the encyclopedia: rules are rules, and should be upheld no matter what status the user has. I'm saddened that the post was removed from AN/I because I think the message was a good one: no one should make personal attacks. These standards aren't particularly high, so I'm not sure why the message was so poorly received by some users. The bottom line is that calling someone a troll repeatedly is a personal attack, and personal attacks never make the encyclopedia better. I wish you much luck in your campaign to get users to just be more civil to one another. Firsfron of Ronchester 19:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Trolling is an action, not a personal characteristic. That's what seems to be totally missed here... if I say someone is trolling, I think their actions are hurting the project in some way. I don't really care about who the person is or what kind of person they are, I just want them to stop trolling. I don't mean it as a personal attack, and never have. I didn't even take it as a personally attack when CBD called me a troll, it was just a criticism of my actions. --W.marsh 23:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it is edifying to note your reversal of the facts here. I said "trolling"... you said "troll". Yet here you present it as if the opposite had taken place. We all view events through our own perspective and take them in ways that might not have been intended. I would never call any user who attempts to contribute in good faith a troll, because it implies that they are always so. Even saying 'trolling' in regards to specific actions is incivil (and thus I apologized for that) though not technically, as you note, a 'personal attack'. --CBD 23:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

So as always (or so it seems), a massive blow-up can be traced to a semantic misunderstanding. Figures. :-) --W.marsh 23:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Ya Ya Ya Ya Ya Ya Ya Ya Ya Ya Ya oops too many

That's absolutely fine, I was just scrambling around that ifdef block at the time. There's a bit of a flurry of admin action that seems to be flying around on Freestylefrappe and his other accounts right now, and I'm worried that hasty things are being done. See the bottom of WP:AN right now and also see the tag just slapped on User:Tchadienne. Yeah, a checkuser showed he's the same guy as Freestylefrappe. We absolutely knew that already. I don't know what the best thing to do is. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

See and especially for the last two AN/I threads on this topic. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to pester -- you should know that none of his new accounts were admitted alternate accounts "from day one" like you said in that edit summary... but they were eventually admitted. If memory serves, the admitting has always come about around the same time the new account runs into edit-warring or civility troubles. Anyway, thanks for looking into it. I don't think he'll want me having much to do with it -- last I checked he still seemed to hate me quite a bit. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 22:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Just chiming in to verify what Bunchofgrapes said. He admits the accounts when he's found out, which really isn't acceptable. Mackensen (talk) 15:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

If you can point to an instance of that actually being true please do so. However, in my experience he has always done so before being 'found out'. Nor has he ever used two accounts to 'vote together' or 'edit war together' that I know of. Again, if I am mistaken then by all means please show me evidence of it. Otherwise, I think these repeated accusations are not helping the situation. --CBD 17:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I think CBD is right. He admits to the accounts when they get in trouble for some reason -- but not when the identity issue is found out. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, CBD, I think the instance of one of these "other" accounts running for adminship is pretty serious. Wouldn't you say that the community has a right to know that an arbcom-desysoped admin is running for adminship under a different name? Incidentally, your characterization of the Ya ya request as an IP outing attempt is quite wrong. People often list observed IPs along with usernames in a request and we always ignore them. Listing only an IP along with the main account cannot be anything other than an outing request; listing multiple usernames is a different matter. Mackensen (talk) 23:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Mackensen, when you say "your characterization of the Ya ya request" I assume you mean the request by Chacor about Ya ya (rather than vice versa). Note that you also say, "Listing only an IP along with the main account cannot be anything other than an outing request"... and thereby answer your own question. Because that is exactly what Chacor did. It was a request to verify that Ya ya ya ya ya ya = IP address. 'Tchadienne' was added to the request a day later... again, not to check if Tchadienne = Ya ya ya ya ya ya (because the user revealed that himself), but as another account to check the IP address against. Chacor stated that his entire purpose was trying to prove a 3RR violation by Ya ya... the fourth revert having been made by that IP address. Ergo, it was every bit as much an 'IP outing' request as the one for which Ya ya has been criticized and blocked.

On adminship... sure it would be nice to know a user's entire past history in judging an RfA, but do you seriously think that none of our thousand admins ever got there after getting into trouble and then creating a new account? We have never required such disclosure before... our policies even state that you CAN run for adminship with a new account. The only restriction placed is that you can't have two admin accounts at the same time. If we don't want to allow users to 'start over with a clean slate' we should say so... rather than calling it a 'serious' offense - despite the fact that it was implicitly allowed by all past practice and policy. --CBD 00:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

CBD, a further point. I dislike being contrarian and dislike even more assuming bad faith, but I'm puzzled by your attitude throughout this affair. Freestylefrappe isn't misunderstood and he certainly isn't being picked on; rather he's one of the most unpleasant people I or anyone else ever dealt with, who was desysoped for those reasons alone. Any user who has ever disagreed with him (or even came to his attention in a few cases) has found themselves harrassed, belitted, and falsely accused (such as when he accused me of sockpuppetry during the Arbcom elections for no apparent reason). He's run for adminship under false pretenses and repeatedly disrupted the encyclopedia. Why, exactly, are you so intent to find fault with the harrassed parties? As I said, I'm not trying to stir things up and I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm just completely mystified. Best, Mackensen (talk) 23:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I know you weren't asking me, but I could be seen as doing a little of the same, Mackensen, and my answer is straightforward -- I just didn't like seeing people get the facts (a little) wrong, because every little incorrect thing gave Freestylefrappe more fuel for his red-hot anger furnace and made life that much more unpleasant for the admins trying to deal with the situation. (I think the new ArbCom motion is spot on, anyway.) —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

As Bunchofgrapes says... I'm just trying to keep the accusations true and 'fair'. We don't help anyone by accusing him of things he hasn't done or giving him unequal treatment. He was criticized and blocked for that 'IP outing request'... but Chacor did the same thing and nobody has said 'Boo' about it. He was right that there were WP:BLP violations on the Vicente Fox page (like... a full paragraph calling Fox a racist with zero references backing it up) that started the dispute (making that 3RR check moot BTW - 3RR doesn't apply to BLP) and nobody seemed to care that blocking him allowed those violations to be restored. In the above you describe it as 'Freestylefrappe' vs 'the harassed parties'... but FSF considers himself the 'harassed party' and unfortunately there are some valid reasons for that. I try to look at the facts rather than picking one person to define as 'the bad user' and ignoring any legitimate concerns they might have. Look at the realities of the situation from his perspective;

1. He is reverting violations of WP:BLP
2. A 4th revert is made by an IP address
3. He is accused of using that IP as a sock to violate 3RR... when he didn't need to do since it was a BLP issue
4. He suspects that the person filing the IP check (Chacor) made the IP edit himself and asks for a counter IP check
5. He is blocked for this... because we don't allow 'IP outing'... but Chacor isn't blocked
6. He complains... more and longer blocks.
7. He complains ALOT... more blocks

Et cetera. Now, people can disagree as to how much of 'his perspective' is valid and whether they assume that IP really was him or not, but it isn't like he has no reason at all to be upset. --CBD 00:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Template:Babel-N

I have modified Template:Babel-N to let it support center alignment. --Hello World! 12:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Should template:babel-0 be removed? --Hello World! 13:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The input parameters of Template:Babel-N is different from Template:Babel (with the addition of "User_"), so the two templates are not prepared to be merged.--Hello World! 13:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea how to merge template:Babel-N and template:Babel. --Hello World! 15:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Apologies if you believed I was trolling

I've no idea quite what makes you think that, I honestly do believe that you should be in charge of the site. Your level headed way of thinking typifies all that is decent about Misplaced Pages, and I believe the site would be vastly improved if more people were to follow your lead. Again, apologies if you have presumed my motivations to be different from the intent. --Pussy Galore 23:39, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

He has been targeted by much sarcastic commentary from uncivil admins, I think your remark just got caught in the crossfire, dont take it personal. --User:Zer0faults 14:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep, if CBD takes a swipe at ye, it's a misunderstanding that you shouldn't take personal. If anyone else dangles a participle or asks a question, it's an attack and evidence of a massive admin conspiracy. The rules to Fizzbin are easier to follow than this. Please explain the double or even triple standards you apply to help clarify this. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Please review Misplaced Pages:Harassment. I'll cite an example for your review: . I believe you are attempting (clumsily) to harass me because of our recent disagreements. I'd like to ask you again politely to stop. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 04:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Sound advice. --User:Zer0faults 15:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm beginning to suspect that you're not editing in good faith. I look forward to hearing CBD's take on the matter. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

AGF please, do not be offended by your own comments, you stated its harrassment to edit talk pages that you have edited, did you not? Or are we still complaining that I added sources to that Idaho article ... Ohio? Who knows anymore, anyway please stop following around my edits, considering you made this edit after the one stating Galore was indef blocked, I am sure you did not expect a response from him. Good day. PS I am starting to assume that you do not know what assume good faith is. --User:Zer0faults 16:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

My take? Please stop polluting my talk page with your apparent inability to comply with Misplaced Pages:Civility. --CBD 18:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merge in Elf article

Hello, CBD, I was wondering if you could use your admin powers to official-ize the proposed merge that was proposed here. The debate — the formal word for it as I know — has been in a consensus to accept the merge and it's been there for a couple of days. —Mirlen 23:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

ME-ref template

It took some careful reading of the template, but I see how it works :) As for other texts, if I come across any sure I'll add them. I guess the logical way to go about it is by adding references to existing articles, any M-e related book not yet in the list can then be added. That's why I added the Roman numerals: I usually refer to the HoMe books as HoMeII p123 or VIII p16 etc., the same style CJRT uses. -- Jordi·✆ 07:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Talk page header

I stole your cool talk page header for my talk page. Hope you don't mind. -- Jordi·✆ 15:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Not at all. Theft of cool formatting is a proud wiki-tradition. I myself stole the concept from here about a year ago. :] --CBD 19:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Highway

...copy past sister (can you fix?) "Infobox highway". Should all be at the uppercase name, which is infobox naming standard conform. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 11:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. --CBD 11:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Tense issue

A little help here. (Sorry to keep on bothering you like this CBD.) —Mirlen 00:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Citizendium

Citizendium might be speeded soon. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 17:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Freestylefrappe

I have proposed a community ban at AN/I. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:37, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Regarding my changes to BFME2 units list

Hello, i recently edited the BFME2 units section and you claimed that I posted nonsense. Which of course is completely untrue, I was merely correcting mistakes, as well as adding three confirmed new units. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.27.221.31 (talk • contribs) .

Hi. Sorry, but I'm not sure what you are talking about. You were apparently using a different IP address because the above was the first edit made by this one. I am guessing that 'BFME2' is The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II, but I only edited that article once... in February... to add info, and I've never edited the associated List of units in The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II at all. Looking back through my contribution history for the past few months the only thing I've called 'nonsense' in an edit summary was when someone added 'Chris Jones' to a list of hobbits. Could you give me some more info about the incident you are referring to? What article was it in? What date? Et cetera. --CBD 12:17, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

After further research I am guessing that you are referring to these edits of yours (which look fine to me) and this message of mine on the talk page of the same IP address. Note that my message is dated April 12th... more than five months before your changes to the list of units and thus completely unrelated. My message was actually directed at this edit from that IP address listing "Adam Wisbrock" as a famous resident of Lossarnach. Most likely your ISP randomly assigns IP addresses and the IP you were using at the time had previously been used by someone else. This also makes it difficult to get back in touch with you... because if I left a message at the talk page of the IP address you most recently used you probably would get a different IP next time and not see it. You might want to create an account to help avoid confusion like this. --CBD 12:33, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The note you left on my talk page regarding User talk:J.R. Hercules

I would be very interested if you would find at least one diff where I have ever reverted J.R. Hercules or re-inserted old comments on his talk page.--Konstable 12:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I was actually not even asking him to "keep the warnings". I was asking participate in discussion or at least reply to my comments rather than tag the article with {{NPOV}} without explanation other than throwing insults at everyone who has ever edited the page.--Konstable 13:29, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Please stop. Now you are harassing me. Stop accusing me of thinks I have never even considered doing. Provide quotes of my words with your accusations and I think you will find that none of them are true. WP:AGF.--Konstable 20:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Re: User:Pewlosels

I wasn't making a pre-emptive block; I honestly have neither the time nor the inclination to pre-emptively block anyone on Misplaced Pages. My argument was that this user was another incarnation of the AN/I troll. It appears no one else believes that, though, & another Admin has already reversed my block. -- llywrch 16:32, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

You could be right. The possibility occured to me when they first showed up... but barring absolute checkuser proof, self-declaration, or some form of actually disruptive behaviour by this account I just can't see blocking. Even if we 'guess right'... I'd still rather 'assume good faith' and let some random troll get in their five minutes of disruption then adopt the practice of blocking people because we think they might be trolls. --CBD 16:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:AN/I archive

where is the discussion? http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=74713746#CBDunkerson_loses_it Tobias Conradi (Talk) 20:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

It got archived here. --CBD 20:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

thx Tobias Conradi (Talk) 23:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Member?

Would you like to become a member of wikiproject Writing Systems? After basically designing {{Infobox WS}} and the Gaelic script debaccle, you've done a lot for this project. I feel bad that I didn't ask you earlier. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 21:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the invite and no worries on timing. I hadn't signed up previously because, other than Cyrillic, all of my (non Latin) writing system knowledge relates to various dead and/or fictional scripts... most of which I think have been covered pretty well. I'll look around and see where I could help out. --CBD 13:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

It's okay if you don't plan on being a die-hard member....look at most of the people on this project. Many of them want to work on certain things. If you would want to join, but you feel that you won't spend a large amount of time with the topic, you could write "part-time contributor and template manager" ;-) Anyway, thank you all the same for what you've done so far. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 20:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Invalid Warnings

Thanks for the heads up. I think I might leave the warnings for a few days now, I feel kind of bad at how I flew off the handle at Swatjester like that. I probably just made things worse; I didn't realize how suspicious he was of everybody who was an anon. I mean I know most users on wikipedia are suspicious of anons immediately, but Swatjester takes it to a level I haven't seen before. No offense to him, that's just how he views the wikipedia, and if I was aware of that previously I probably would have been more understanding. I don't hold anything against him anymore. Anyways, thanks again for the notice. 69.124.143.230 00:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Issues of tense

As you know, the debate on whether novels related to Tolkien related articles should be in past tense or not is going on. I was thinking of involving WP:Novels (after all, they too were involved in the collaboration of making The Lord of the Rings a FA article) and presenting our case with solid, justified reasons (and perhaps a bit of passionate pleas in there as well) here. But before I did so, I wanted your advice and feedback on whether that plan of action is either good or ill. —Mirlen 14:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems like there is just one person arguing for present tense. I'd really like to see if he has a reason other than 'because that is the way it is supposed to be'... which isn't strictly true (there are exceptions) and doesn't explain what is 'good' about it in this case. Explaining how Tolkien's texts differ from other novels may be more difficult with people who are not all familiar with them. Opening it up for comment by more people may be needed if he is set on this, but he has to at least give some reason other than 'following what I think a guideline says' first. --CBD 14:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your advice, CBD, and I do agree with what you said. The other reason given was confusion, which I did not consider it as a justification. I did post a comment on the talk page of where the dispute resides but he has not replied yet. If no reply is given in 1-2 days, should I revert it back to past tense, or should I prod the user (for the third or fourth time as you can tell by reading my comments) for a reply? Frankly, I'm for the first plan because I am tired of prodding for a reply (since unreplied comments w/clear majority seems to me as a settled dispute)...but I don't want it to turn into an edit conflict, so perhaps waiting is the best course of action...? —Mirlen 00:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd go ahead and put it back, but not repeat if he reverts it. If he reverts to enforce his version, but can't give a solid reason then I guess we'd have to take it to the next stage of requesting comment from a wider audience. I agree that 'possible confusion' doesn't seem like a big issue as alot of people won't be familiar with the guideline, but most of those who are might well also know that it has caveats... and in any case, as was noted, we can point them to both the Wikiproject standards and the guideline itself for explanation. --CBD 00:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright, thanks CBD :) (and for dealing with my endless barrage of questions). —Mirlen 00:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

one more abusive deletion?

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log&page=Agdam

Can you check by which policy this was covered/ where my dab was moved ...? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 02:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Your disambiguation page info was in the 'deleted revisions' list at Agdam. I'm not sure how it could be separated out, possibly by moving 'Agdam' somewhere else first but I'm not sure if that would move the deleted history also. For now I'm going to restore the history and then add that info into the district article to indicate that there are other places with the same name. That's an important fact to make note of and normally we would do it with a disambiguation page as you did, but until articles on the other locations are created the argument will be that we 'only disambiguate articles which exist'... which doesn't work so well when it is important to note different uses on things that don't have articles yet. I'd suggest creating stubs for the new articles first and then restoring the disambig page... I don't think any of the 'Agdams' are likely to be much more likely to be searched for than the others and thus you are likely correct that disambiguation makes sense. --CBD 14:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

• thx for undeleting. I could then use this to redo the old dab.
• same here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log&page=Kangarli
• the admin who deleted, said that red links would be ok for him. So IMO he himself could have made internal redlinks next to the external links. If you undelete Kangarli I can make there redlinks too. And I also can create one more stub to be sure there is no policy conflict at all. I will also re-read WP:CSD to see whether he violated policies once again. He is very well aware that I am absolutly against use of admin privileges in editorial conflicts which are not covered by policies. He also wants to delete documention on former abuses Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Tobias Conradi/admin right abuse. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 15:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Replied here. --CBD 11:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

• if you like, your vote? Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Tobias Conradi/admin right abuse Tobias Conradi (Talk) 16:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Civility

I eagerly anticipate your reply to and . I will be terribly disapointed if you once again excuse Tobias's incivility while leveling continued criticism like this at other admins. Please step up to the plate, Tobias listens to you and would benefit from your insight as a calming influence. Anything that can be done to bring him back from the edge of the precipice would be beneficial. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 22:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

When have I ever excused Tobias's incivility? Or were you just trotting that falsity out again in hopes of getting a rise? Of course Tobias should have chosen different comparisons. Even if he 'did not intend to equate' there are plenty of less potentially inflammatory comparisons... or no comparison at all. It would have been fine to say, 'Calling admin rights abuse, 'admin rights abuse', may be upsetting for the admins, but that does not mean we should not do it and thereby encourage further abuses'. Makes the point clearly without potentially mucking it up with comparisons to other things that people might take as including closer parallels than were intended. As to 'bringing him back from the edge of the precipice'... I think not harassing him would be really beneficial in that regards. --CBD 13:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

So... that's a "no"? - CHAIRBOY (☎) 21:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

If you have reached the point where you would claim that "Of course" is synonymous with "no"... well then there doesn't seem to be much point to further communication. --CBD 21:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I apologize, then, because I missed the edit you made telling Tobias that his behavior in those diffs I provided was not appropriate. If you could provide those, I would really appreciate it. If you spoke with him off-project, then let me know too. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 22:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you well know that I have stated both publically and privately that Tobias should not respond to conflict with incivility and have cautioned him on this more than once... including in relation to the specific instance you are harping on (most recently when I said so again above). It's over. The discussion was closed. I warned him about those comments, others warned him about those comments.... now you are bringing it up again after the fact... why exactly? Because the three or four warnings on those specific lines he received at the time weren't enough? It needs to be repeated again? --CBD 12:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrator Review

Howdy! I've created Misplaced Pages:Administrator Review as a process proposal, and I would like your thoughts on the subject. You and I have regularly disagreed on subjects related to admin interaction (I'm still waiting for that diff above, btw, but that's a seperate issue). I'm trying to figure out a way to make it easier for users who feel they have been wronged to get immediate, organized feedback from the community that will either satisfy them that an abuse has not happened or gives them the foundation for a legit RfC. I'm sure you have some thoughts on the matter, I'm trying to make WP better, but if it's not a good proposal, I'm counting on folks making that clear. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 06:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Generally seems like moving the place for 'informal complaints about admins' from AN/I to this new area and putting more process around it. Dunno whether it would be better than the current system or not... the added complexity of the process (as opposed to just writing a note) might deter some users. I'd probably go with something more like an 'intervention help desk'... you are focusing on whether "an abuse has not happened or ... the foundation for a legit RfC". Most of the time arguing over 'who is more at fault' just exacerbates the issue... there is a disagreement and people are unhappy. We should generally acknowledge/discourage repetition of mistakes on all sides, but be trying primarily to resolve the dispute rather than deciding who to blame. --CBD 12:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Date template

Hi Conrad. I know you have been involved in date templates before, and I was wondering if you could help with an idea I raised at Talk:Hurricane_Katrina#Dates_lacking_years. It involves the tendancy for people to give dates without years (ie. day and month only) for current events. Unfortunately, as at the Hurricane Katrina articles, this can be confusing over a year later, as sometimes it is no longer clear which year people are referring to. The ideal situation is for people to use the year when they first write the sentence, but in articles with lots of dates the repetition of the year can be annoying (and anyway, a well-written article will make clear what year a series of yearless dates refers to). Still, I was wondering if some date template magic using "current date" could be used to construct something that displays the day and month for a year after the date entered, and then displays the day, month and year after a year has passed? If this would only work for wikilinked dates, it might not be worth it. If it can work for all instances of a date, that would be great. Maybe something like this already exists? I haven't found it yet though. Thanks. Carcharoth 09:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll raise this at MOS:DATE as you suggest. I'm not actually surprised that it doesn't mention it. A lot of guidelines that superficially look good miss out basic stuff. Though sometimes they have been removed under the mantra of anti-instruction creep. Carcharoth 12:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

New text now in place here. I'm sure you are aware of it, but I thought I'd also point out Misplaced Pages:As of, the rather long-lasting stop-gap measure implemented until "someone comes up with a better idea, perhaps using a template" - can you think of a suitable way to tackle recentism in dates using templates? Carcharoth 23:48, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I hadn't seen Misplaced Pages:As of before. Reading up on that it looks like a template of the form, {{update after|2008|11|4}}, was recently developed at {{update after}} for this purpose. After a specified date it displays an 'update needed' superscript note and adds hidden links to the day, month, and year so that people can check all pages needing update in the current month. If enough people use this for tagging and perform cleanup it should do a pretty good job. --CBD 10:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

And I hadn't seen {{update after}}! Thanks for pointing that out. PS. I only spotted your reply here by chance. Must be more organised! :-) Carcharoth 00:23, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

templates using hiddenStructure

Hi Conrad, per request of Carl, I did a xml dump scan for templates using hiddenStructure. Feel free to help cut down on User:Ligulem/work/templates using hiddenStructure :). --Ligulem 12:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Great. I've been tempted to just take it out of the 'common.css' to spur cleanup, but this list will help alot. --CBD 11:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Ruud did this. I reverted for now, because I want to cut down on the list first. Ruud's idea is good though, and I took it into my monobook.css. See also discussions at MediaWiki_talk:Common.css#hiddenStructure_again. --Ligulem 11:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot to mention that http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/monobook/main.css already contains hiddenStrcture (see also User_talk:R._Koot#MediaWiki:Common.css). --Ligulem 11:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

PLEASE PLEASE HELP!

CBDunkerson, I am having a problem with a very aggressive editor. It is wikipediatrix. I am a new editor and have created several articles in which she has either put up for deletion or has raised issue with repeatedly. She has her own favorite Administrator and editors that will agree with everything she says even while admitting that she is very aggressive. I created an article for Christian Recording star David L Cook. It has been hell from day one. Now here is the issue we are having now. I use AOL and some of the other edits are coming from an IP address that is used by AOL. So therefore the IP address seems to be the same. She is now alledging that I am making all of these edits when I simply am not! I cannot control AOL or how they use their IP addresses. This has been an issue for Misplaced Pages for some time and I am very aware of it. However, for her to go onto various editors and Administrators talk pages and say that Junebug52 and the IP address user are one in the same is simply absurd. That is her personal POV and should not be allowed. When I first stareted editing I did create a user name that was part of the compnay that I work for. I found out that I could not do that and so I changed to a private name of which I am the only one to use my account. She claims that I work for David L Cook. I do not! I work for a company that handles various artists and Mr. Cook happens to be one of them. The fact that he is handled by the company I work for has no bearing on the fact that I do not use my companies resources or time to edit or contribute. I do not use their data base to contribute. These are my own projects outside of whatever company I work for and I do not work for Mr. Cook. She has littered the talk page with nothing but negative statements and I am just at my witts end. It has been explained to her that before she makes edits to the page that she should introduce her thoughts onto the talk page and then allow me or another editor to make suggestions. Oh no, she has not done that one time. She goes in and makes aggressive edits and then will not tell anyone why she does them. If you review her talk pages you will see that I am not the only one that she does this to. When you question her, then she gets even more aggressive and comes back with this thing about me being uncivil to her or throwing a tantrum? Today I requested another editor look at a discography page on CD Baby and tell me what he thought of it since she removed David's discography. She immediately came back and said "It's so amazing that it just showed up on CD Baby when it was not there 48 hours ago" She said she cached the information and it was not there. Well I wrote her back and gave her this cache cite She had nothing to say about that except that it ws not the one she was refering to. Note: I did not add it to the page, but just asked another editor to look at it and give his opinion. After he gave his opinion I was fine with it and it them became a moot point. But not with her. She had to keep on and now she has me listed for blocking and saying I am editing under an IP address and all kinds of crap. That is not Misplaced Pages, that is her own point of view. I can take her editing, what I cannot take is her disregard for me as an editor or making false accusations. I am humbly asking for your help in this matter. I am at the point of removing myself from Misplaced Pages all together because this has really hurt my feelings. She has even went as far as to say that David L Cook and Junebug52 are one in the same? How can she say that without proof? It would not surprise me if she finds this request as I feel she is watching everything I am doing and making remarks to whomever I reach out to. PLEASE HELP! Junebug52 13:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi CB, got another programming request for ya...

As you've probably noticed I work with lists a lot, and one thing that takes up an inordinate amount of time is columnization. Do you know of a way, or could you whip up a tool, to add columnizing markup code automatically? Counting the column of links and placing the tags manually is extremely tedious, and must be repeated for each heading section. And there are hundreds of lists which need columnization.

Here's the page I'm about to tackle, along with some sample markup code (also if you know of better markup code for this, I'd be glad to learn of it):  Talk:List of academic disciplines#This page needs columnization. --The Transhumanist 05:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

For simple lists I think that the easiest markup to use is just;

{|
|-
| A || B || C
|-
| D || E || F
|-
| G || H || I
|}

However, for lists with indented sub-headings like on the page above I think you are pretty much stuck with a method like you are using on that page. The easiest way I know of to split up the lists manually would be to copy them into a spreadsheet program like Excel or Lotus 123... then you could highlight the full list to get the complete count of entries, add rows with the markup tags at the appropriate spots, and then copy the whole thing back to the edit window. --CBD 15:53, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I use Excel as well. It is a simple way to concatenate different mark-up tags and coding together, if you don't really know enough programming to use a proper editor that will do things like that for you. Have a look at the CONCATENATE function in Excel. Search and replace is also useful for manipulating and rearranging data, as are the data sorting functions in Excel. Carcharoth 00:20, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Cool, I'll try these.

How hard would it be to create a bot that processed list pages and their columns automatically? --The Transhumanist 22:29, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I haven't worked with Misplaced Pages bots at all, but I'd suspect that the general concept wouldn't be too bad. The problem area would be any sort of decision-making. Should a particular list page be columnized? How many columns should it use? Should the column breaks be made at different points to accomodate indented lists? Et cetera. It would likely also get confused by any images, comments, or other 'non list entry' text as there would be no way to distinguish those. I think there is always going to have to be human input and review. Where are you running into hangups? It might be possible to put together a macro to automate any task that takes a while. --CBD 11:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

For Service Above and Beyond the Call of Duty

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		As a supervising admin, CBDunkerson helped resolve one of the most contentious, mind-numbing, extensive disputes in Misplaced Pages history over the naming of state highways. For this commendable and exhausting work, he deserves the eternal gratitude and Wiki-love of every Wikipedian. Xoloz 17:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ed Poor 2

This case is now closed and the results have been published at the link above.

Ed Poor is placed on Probation. He may be banned from any article or set of articles by an uninvolved administrator for disruptive editing, such as edit warring, original research, and POV forking. All bans are to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ed Poor 2#Log of blocks and bans.

For the Arbitration Committee. Arbitration Committee Clerk, FloNight 13:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:SRNC thanks

Thank you for your participation as a judging admin at WP:SRNC! We appreciate your willingness to be involved in a contentious situation, and to deliver an unbiased verdict.

Regards, Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 05:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Nepal

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Baglung_District&diff=81581488&oldid=81113104

Probably all NP districts got this edit. Can this be roled back? Assume only admins can do so. Looks like template code was put in pages. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 17:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

It looks like they just substituted a template onto the page blank... which isn't useful in any way that I can see. I just deleted the template info. This can actually be corrected by anyone with a normal revert or edit. Since the substituted logic added things to Category:Country subdivision infobox templates that category can be used to see the pages it is on which aren't 'Template:' pages and corrected there. --CBD 16:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I can do one by one. But I thought you can roll back the 20 or so edits by the user. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 23:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The only 'special' admin ability in this regards is the 'rollback' button... which is basically a revert with an automatic edit summary. Just saves a second or so over doing it manually. However, rollback is only supposed to be used on vandalism... and while adding blank infoboxes isn't helpful it could certainly be well intentioned and does not appear to have been a deliberate effort to cause problems - ergo not vandalism and rollback shouldn't be used. I've just been undoing them manually. --CBD 16:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

NavigationBar

Hi - I'm interested in any comments you might have about template:NavigationBar. I've started a thread on this at WP:VPT#NavigationBar. Thanks. -- Rick Block (talk) 20:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Update to Template:Update_after

Hi! I've made changes to Template:Update after (it now links to Category:Misplaced Pages articles in need of updating and As of), and made significant changes to the documentation at Template:Update_after (including documenting the built-in ability to add a comment, and a changes in where it's allowable to be used); please review, and provide comments at Template talk:Update after if you think any are appropriate. Thanks! --Scott McNay 03:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC).

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Non-Notability

Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Non-Notability. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Non-Notability/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Non-Notability/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, -- Drini 22:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Template:Announcements/New featured pages

Thanks for fixing my erroneous transclusion of the discussion - too much cutting and pasting! You had fixed it by the time I noticed and went back to correct myself. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem. --CBD 16:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment out of context

You make a comment about "some incivil comments (e.g. 'monster') around" the WP:RFAR Brya case. This is my original comment:

"However, because Brya was given an infinite number of chances without ever being blocked, imo, the community created the monster that Bray became. By monster, I mean not the person, but the large and unwieldy resulting behavior exhibited that has wasted so much time in botany pages, continuing to do so now by having to discuss it here, on WP:TOL, and all over the place, and caused so much damage, the ferocious edit wars and rampant speculation and Brya's POV all over the place, and endless discussions about what to do about Brya."

This has been going on for months and, indeed, has become a "huge thing: something extraordinarily or unusually large," or a monster. Please don't accuse me of making uncivil comments when I've carefully said exactly what I mean: the situation is huge and out of control and disproportionate to what is going on.

And MrDarwin saw it accurately for what it is: an accusation that the community shares some responsibility with Brya for what is going on, because they failed to give sufficient, gentle warnings, that they really meant early on.

You're essentially making a misplaced personal attack on me, about my lack of civility with this comment, and removing the careful and civil context I placed the word in--and no other word in English means precisely what I meant as this one does. You also singled me out with your comment, that I was uncivil, when the person who has requested arbitration has been posting threats and making personal attacks on me and others on my talk page, their talk pages, anywhere they have access.

I wondered when I first came to Misplaced Pages to start cleaning up the botany pages, why so many were so poorly done, a disproportionate number, compared to many other categories. It's because every newcomer runs the danger of running afoul of Brya's POV and carefully guarded pages and getting squashed in the process. Most simply won't bother once they see the records of the dozens of edit wars, and all the other evidence of disruption. However, I think Misplaced Pages owes a responsibility to the community to not spread false information. And I am simply perplexed as to why it has been allowed to go on for so long. From a newcomer's perspective and still relative outsider, it is incomprehensible.

My point about the monster is the behavior that resulted from plant editors not dealing with the problem earlier. It is, in fact, a civil comment, in a stream of people putting the blame on Brya, when Brya doesn't have a voice, to point out that Brya isn't the only one at fault.

KP Botany 01:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Since I apparently don't use your English language dictionary and that's the only one allowed on Misplaced Pages, I'll leave you all to your own devices. You should, however, put notice as to what dictionary is the only one allowed on Misplaced Pages. KP Botany 17:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Is there a more efficient way to encode this signature?

My new sig has received a complaint. It's 6 lines of wikicode. Is there a way to reduce the code and achieve the same visual effect?

  The Transhumanist  

Thanks for your answer on my talk page. It helped a lot.  The Transhumanist   02:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)