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VwM.Mwv

Cristina neagu

Springee, Trekphiler and RAF910

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Springee

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Dlthewave (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:48, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Springee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Trekphiler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

RAF910 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun_control#Discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Note: This pattern of POV-pushing involves three editors. I hope that submitting them together is not problematic. These diffs and quotes are merely examples; the entire discussion should be read for context.

1. 30 November 2018 Springee posts at WikiProject Firearms expressing concern that the "Criminal use" list at Glock is "out of control". RAF910 and Trekphiler chime in with POV-pushing comments: "...there are too many anti-gun editors who are pushing a political agenda, and doing everything in their power to gang-up on and ban pro-gun editors. So, despite our best efforts, I'm afraid there is very little we do about it at this time. Just "VOTE and HOPE" that enough editors realize where this is going and are willing to do something to stop it." "If it didn't lead to a change in the law, what impact did it have on Glock? Show that., & maybe it merits inclusion". These complaints are not a substantial consensus-building discussion and none of the arguments are based in policy, however it is cited later as prior consensus. My suggestion to discuss at Talk:Glock was ignored.
2. 30 November 2018 Trekphiler blanks the entire Criminal Use section with the summary "which of these led to changes in law enough to impact Glock sales? none." This is not consistent with any current guideline and seems to be based on a deprecated WP:FIREARMS criminal use recommendation.
3. 30 November 2018 After I reinstated the section, Trekphiler removes it again with a personal attack in the edit summary: "don't need to show impact? it smells like gun-confiscator propaganda otherwise
4. 11 February 2019 Springee opens a discussion: "The list of crimes was deleted last November. A discussion with respect to the list was had here ]. Involved editors were myself, Dlthewave, RAF910 and Trekphiler. The concern and consensus was this had become an indiscriminate list of crimes with no indication that those crimes were associated with Glock in general. It is not clear that external RSs about the Glock company commonly include long lists of crimes. This isn't to say that a crime section can't be supported via RSs but we should base our inclusion and the associations of any particular crime with external sources about Glock that make that association." This raises several concerns: By linking the editors, Springee is effectively canvassing a group of editors who expressed support for his position; the previous, unsubstantial discussion is now referred to as "consensus"; and Springee is setting a high bar for inclusion, requiring that all sources in the criminal use section be about Glock specifically, an expectation which is not applied to any other section of the article. When challenged, Springee seems to apply a double standard to justify removing criminal use content while retaining information about police and military users: "The list is out of control because it is long, has no content other than "Crime X included a Glock" and is indiscriminate because no justification for inclusion was offered or suggested." (even though the Users section consists almost entirely of "Agency X uses Glocks" entries); " it is common in firearms articles to discuss police and military users" (while requiring that criminal use section be justified for inclusion in this specific article.)
5. 12 February 2019 Trekphiler makes an uncivil accusation: ”This list is nothing but an effort to dirty Glock firearms, & by extension, all firearms. I don't see a "criminal use" section for the 1934 Ford or the Chevrolet Impala. Why not? Because there's a hate-on for guns. “
6. 17 February 2019 After reliable sources including the Washington Post are provided to support the Criminal Use section, Springee makes dubious claims that they are ”basicallly content free” and insists that more sources be found. This is accompanied by unproductive, rambling walls of text about everything from police departments using Glocks to something about F-150s.
7. 17 February 2019 RAF910 canvasses Drmies, an editor who previously supported removal, and misleadingly assesses consensus by counting votes.
8. 17 February 2019 RAF910 makes a false accusation of forum shopping (I did not start any of the discussions) and assesses prior consensus by counting votes.

Taken together in the context of the overall discussion, these comments represent a pattern of obstruction to the consensus-building process by refusing to work toward a compromise, refusing to accept that consensus may change and setting ever-higher bars for inclusion of criminal use content. The initial discussion on the Wikiproject Firearms page and selective notification of editors raise canvassing concerns as well.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Springee alerted
• Trekphiler alerted
• RAF910 alerted

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

• It should be self-evident that I did not come here to resolve the content dispute. I came here to address problematic behavior surrounding the dispute which has been impeding the consensus-building process. I find it particularly odd that Cullen328's statement consists entirely of their opinion on the dispute and implies that these editors being "right" somehow nullifies the civility issue. The comments presented here, by myself and others, would be unacceptable anywhere on Misplaced Pages and certainly should not be tolerated in a Discretionary Sanctions topic area.

RAF910 has pointed out some of my writing on the topic and I too would encourage folks to read User:Dlthewave/Signpost_Opinion_Firearms. It is understandable that this may be viewed as polemical, however I feel that it is important to highlight the long-term pattern and I've been careful not to name individual editors. I view this episode as a continuation of the pattern described there. My goal is not to add criminal use to every firearm article or block everyone who disagrees with me. I just want to discuss it in a civil, open manner without being accused of bias. I find it interesting that Wikiproject Firearms members have repeatedly stated that criminal use is outside the scope of the project (most recently in November 2018) yet the project pages are still being used to provide recommendations on criminal use content and begrudgingly notify fellow editors of "out of control" lists. The lack of interest in developing best practices for criminal use content is one reason that I started the Gun Politics Task Force, an idea first proposed in 2015 by project members who did not want to get involved with political topics. It seems that their idea of "not getting involved" has evolved to mean excluding this content from articles within the scope of the project. The fact that RAF10 has made only two brief comments actually highlights part of the problem: They have made no attempt to actually discuss the content in question. –dlthewave ☎ 15:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• GoldenRing I attempted to explain the purpose of my Signpost opinion submission above and Whitewashing of firearms articles was an essential supplement to that piece. I feel that it is important for editors to be aware of the long-standing pattern that has been taking place, including in cases like this where the issue is a continuation of something that has been going on for over a decade. I was careful not to include usernames. Is this a sufficient explanation or should we continue this in an appeal discussion? –dlthewave ☎ 14:37, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• Springee
• Trekphiler
• RAF910

Discussion concerning Springee, Trekphiler and RAF910

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Springee

I don't understand why we are even here. This is a content dispute. The claim of improper notification Dlthewave made was wrong as APPNOTE specifically says notifying previously involved editors is not canvasing. However, when a few months after participating in said discussion Dlthewave reverts a consensus edit that is a problem. Rather than disputing the consensus Dlthewave ignored it. Since Dlthewave is concerned about improper notification I would point out that the project the editor started has a goal to add content such as mass shootings into firearms article when possible ]. The ~10 project editors have been nearly unanimous in their opinions on such material. Why wouldn't any notice to such a sympathetic project be automatically seen as improper notification? Dlthewave isn't a "bad guy" or anything and, even though I think this ARE is way off base, I think in general they are acting in good faith. However, this is a very inappropriate use of ARE to try to address a content dispute. Finally, I would suggest that Dlthewave's own POV is very strong in this area. Consider that in their Signpost submission, towards the end of their article, they implied that editors such as myself were keeping criminal content out of an article against a general RfC discussion ("To date, the article does not make any mention of criminal use") but neglected to mention to readers that this was due to a new, local RfC that said consensus to not include. If there is PUSH I would say it is in both directions but also, even in Dlthewave's case, all within Wiki policies and guidelines. Springee (talk) 11:52, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Legacypac's comments

LP's history of INCIVILITY towards me should be kept in mind when reading this. The editor was blocked (later lifted with a warning) for their attacks against me. Block log ], related talk page discussions ], ]. Unsubstantiated accusations of COI are certainly not assuming good faith when I have already stated I have no COI in this area. Never have, unlikely I ever will. Also, I'm not an NRA member, never have been. Springee (talk) 11:58, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

@Legacypac:, do not come to my talk page to accuse me of lying here. ] If you feel something I said here was a lie then show your cards. I am tired of your accusations. Springee (talk) 04:37, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Your follow up comment does not show where I "lied". Here is the block warning ] in question. Springee (talk) 04:54, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Additional follow up comments

MastCell (talk · contribs), I'm not clear if you are suggesting I've engaged in battle ground behavior. I wouldn't think so. I've tried to engage editors like Dlthewave and K.e.coffman on their talk pages specifically to avoid civility issues. As K.e.coffman said, I have been civil. I do suspect I'm long winded and willing to post my concerns. I can see how that can be seen as stonewalling. You suggested I moved a goal post with respect to the Glock crime inclusion. I don't believe I have. I suggested that the sort of articles that could establish WEIGHT would be articles "about Glock" that talk about mass shootings. Never did I claim that simply finding any example should be sufficient. To K.e.coffman's credit they found two articles along those lines. Not to dive too deeply into the content dispute but the articles are of limited quality and don't draw any causal links. Basically I don't think they provide encyclopedic content. I said as much. I did not remove the new material from the article. I don't see how a civil disagreement on the talk page is stonewalling nor do I see how this isn't part of the process.

K.e.coffman (talk · contribs), I appreciate that you acknowledge the civility. I don't agree with much of what you have said here but I also view you as civil. So first, how do you think my question at WP:Firearms ] would be canvasing? I made no edits to the article but I did raise a question. I suppose you could argue that the sort of editors who watch that talk page are likely to be sympathetic. However, wouldn't that same concern apply to anything posted to WP:Gun Politics, the project Dlthewave started? The few participants listed have been strident in trying to add crime material to many firearms pages. Look at the list of Collaborations and Related discussions. Every case is a discussion regarding the inclusion of crime content in a gun article. How is that different?

Anyway, based on the WP:Guns discussion the long list of crimes was removed from the article. Even now it appears that editors agree that the long, indiscriminate list should not be in the article. Pinging the involved editors when the topic came up again in February was APPNOTE (see Mr rnddude's statement below).

Yes, I did feel the proposal you highlighted at the S&W M&P15 page was forum shopping because less than two years earlier we had a RfC with significant participation looking at the exact same content.]. I think my view that nothing had changed was vindicated by the result of the recent RfC that reached the same conclusion as the previous one. How should editors feel when people simply ignore previous RfCs?

You said that based on previous AEs I should know about problematic behaviors. I agree. This is one of the reasons why I work very hard to remain civil, even in the face of attacks such as those LP has leveled against me here thus I'm not sure why you would highlight "Personalizing disputes" or "canvasing" given, as others have noted, we are dealing with APPNOTE. I do have a long term concern that is shared with other editors who have worked in the area of firearms. It does seem that some editors really push on the crime aspects by trying to put lists of crimes into every article. I have weight concerns with that which I've expressed with others and even asked Dlthewave to help with ]. What I've seen is many of those editors got frustrated and found that either they did take things too far and violated CIVIL or they gave up and left that article space. So while I think it is incivil to suggest an objective to chase away editors who don't agree with a POV, I can understand why others feel that way.

Additional edit: @K.e.coffman:, I'm sorry that your reply was to back away from an acknowledgement of civil but didn't include answers to any of my questions/concerns Springee (talk) 02:50, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

But I do have a solution: I think one of the best things we could do for this problem, ie should crimes be added to many of these articles, is to visit the question of WEIGHT. I've discussed this a number of times and will throw it out here just in case. Does weight have reciprocity? That is, if A is significant to B, does that mean B is significant to A? In the case of some gun crimes people have argued, "the crime was significant and articles about the crime mention the gun thus the gun article must mention the crime". Other times we have decided that even if the crime was significant and a tool of the crime was significant, that doesn't mean the crime appears on the tool's article. For example, after a RfC it was clearly decided that it was UNDUE to include the DC sniper attacks in the Chevrolet Caprice article. Perhaps if we could answer this question we would cut down the back and forth.

Statement by Cullen328

I am neither pro-gun nor anti-gun and feel that I am neutral because I have been criticized roughly equally by people on both sides of that debate. But if someone added content to an article about a kitchen knife manufacturer reporting that some criminal stabbed someone with a knife made by that company, I would object. Undue weight. It would be inappropriate, in my view, if someone added content to an article about a company that rents trucks stating that company inadvertently rented a truck to someone who carried out a truck bombing. It would be inappropriate to add content to articles about Home Depot or Lowe's or any other home improvement company reporting that somebody bought supplies there that were used to build a terrorist bomb. All bets are off, of course, if such a company was proved negligent in a court of law. Last time I checked, sales and ownership of firearms remains legal in the United States for the vast majority of adult citizens. And the overwhelming majority of legally owned firearms have never been used in a crime or any act of violence. Personally, I favor universal background checks and other reasonable restrictions on gun ownership so the so-called "pro-gun" editors might be wary of me. But really. If reliable sources report that celebrity X died of alcoholism, and their favorite beverage was Cutty Sark should we add that to Cutty Sark (whisky)? I do not think so. Undue weight and soapboxing. This should be declined. Cullen Let's discuss it 07:36, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by RAF910

Please read User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing of firearms articles, User:Dlthewave/Signpost Opinion Firearms and Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/Newsroom/Submissions "Opinion: Firearms". Where Dlthewave portrayed himself as the epic hero fighting the forces of darkness. Basically, this is in direct violation of Misplaced Pages:Advocacy. Also, see User talk:Felsic2/Gun use "Requested move 19 May 2018" where on 4 June 2018 there was a consensus NOT to move this page to Misplaced Pages:GUNUSE or Misplaced Pages:GUNCRIME. However, 18 January 2019‎, Dlthewave ignored said consensus and created (backdoor) redirects to said page anyway. This is also clearly a violation of Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing. Also, he is constantly accusing his fellow editors of acting in bad faith and violating Wiki policies. And, as you can see he is adept at Misplaced Pages:Wikilawyering. Dlthewave's edit history speaks for itself. I believe it's his ultimate goal to get as many "pro-gun' editors as possible blocked or topic-banned, so they cannot interfere with his crusade.--RAF910 (talk) 06:50, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Springee, Thank you for reminding me. On 11 April 2018,‎ Dlthewave started the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Politics/Gun politics page with the expressed purpose of adding "criminal use" sections to firearm articles. Again, showing that he is a self declared Political Advocate. --RAF910 (talk) 18:55, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

MastCell, is wrong. I have made no effort to "to move the goalposts" or " responded with a litany of excuses that seem fundamentally like stonewalling." If you read the Talk:Glock page, the only editor moving the goal post is Dlthewave. I have only made two edits to this page, and only one edit in this regard..."OPPOSE the addition of a criminal use section in any form, for reason already stated.--RAF910 (talk) 00:07, 12 February 2019 (UTC)". The other edit was..."Starting a new discussion on the same issue, is just another attempt at forum shopping. The above discussion is 2 for and 4 against inclusion of a criminal use section.--RAF910 (talk) 19:31, 17 February 2019 (UTC)" after Dlthewave restored the "Criminal use" section against the aforementioned 2 to 4 consensus.....Also, how anyone could say that I'm trying to shut down the discussion at the Talk:Glock page with these two edits is patently ridiculous. The only editor trying to shut down discussions here is Dlthewave who is constantly accusing his fellow editors of acting in bad faith and violating Wiki policies. see User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing of firearms articles, User:Dlthewave/Signpost Opinion Firearms and Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/Newsroom/Submissions --RAF910 (talk) 21:06, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Dlthewave latest comment confirms that he knows that I have not engaged in any disruptive behavior. He's just upset that I have only made "two brief comments" and that I'm not willing to get involved in long drawn out discussions. He also acknowledges that it's understandable that his edits may be viewed as polemical, but he feels it is important to highlight what he believe to be long-term patterns. I don't know, or care why Dlthewave is here...I want no part of it.--RAF910 (talk) 19:03, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Mr rnddude

Springee opens a discussion ... This raises several concerns: By linking the editors, Springee is effectively canvassing a group of editors who expressed support for his position. Really? Involved editors were myself, Dlthewave, RAF910 and Trekphiler. <- The OP is the second name on the list of those notified, and only four people commented here. So everyone that was there was notified. So there's a falsehood.

Sigh. I couldn't read past there, although I see Drmies is also named. Fascinating that a pro-gun editor should canvass a gun-control advocate. Mr rnddude (talk) 07:16, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

GoldenRing - this? it was closed as decide on a case-by-case basis if I recall correctly. Mr rnddude (talk) 08:02, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Legacypac

I follow the NRA article where Springee can be counted on to push a "nothing negative about the NRA or guns" agenda. He denies any COI but from what I've seen the NRA should be sending him thank-you cards and maybe an honorarium for his dedicated efforts. Such volunteer dedication is truly rare. I'm not familiar with the other editors named here. Legacypac (talk) 09:12, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Springee decided to dig up how they managed to turn a comment about their whitewashing of the NRA article into a short, inappropriate and quickly lifted block against me. . I'd forgotten they did that. Just shows how relentless their POV pushing and wikilawyering is against anyone that tries to hold a NPOV line. Legacypac (talk) 04:48, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Trekphiler

Personal attack? Seriously? At what point did I even mention my alleged target's username? (Hell, I don't even know it. Or care.) POV-pushing? That has to be the thinnest excuse for a POV push I've ever seen. I do believe the Glock page's "criminal use" section should be remvoed, because all it does is catalog crimes with no particular cultural or historical significance & no impact on any laws, nor on Glock's policies or sales. As such, IMO, including it is POV against firearms. My views on the subject are strongly held, & may be strongly stated. I will offer no apologies for that. So, I would suggest this is an effort to silence criticism or an opposing point of view rather than persuade or achieve consensus. (That "consensus" may amount to nothing beyond a narrow majority vote is a policy matter better dealt with elsewhere.) Since I expect to be held to a different standard from anybody else, as always, I will expect a topic ban, if not an outright indefinite site ban, any second now. So be it. Good riddance. TREKphiler 18:20, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by K.e.coffman

I've participated in these debates and I would like to highlight a long-term pattern of uncollegial behaviour, the voicing of conspiracy theories, and general failure to assume good faith on article Talk pages & via edit summaries. For example, Trekpiler persists with his theme of a " confiscator lobby" which the editors who do not agree with him apparently belong to:

WP:GUNS Talk page, February 2018: permalink

• Every time there's a mass shooting, the gun confiscators come out & blame the weapon for the crime.
• And there are evidently some confiscators involved, too, or we wouldn't have somebody trying to put the event on the S&W page in the first place

Smith & Wesson Talk page permalink

• March 2018: Naah... The confiscators will still rather take guns away from law-abiding people.
• April 2018: As for the proposition the page is written as a promo or fansite page, that is simply preposterous, and smells of another effort by the confiscator lobby.

Glock, Nov 2018, via edit summary:

• don't need to show impact? it smells like gun-confiscator propaganda otherwise

RAF910 expresses similar sentiments, with accusations of "crusades", "missions", etc.

• Colt AR-15 Talk page, April 2018: Now we have editors who have decided that it is their mission to add criminal use section to every firearms article that they can get away with. And, even if they lose today, they will be back tomorrow with another rfc, and then another and another until they win.
• Compare with RAF910's comment in this report: "I believe it's his ultimate goal to get as many "pro-gun' editors as possible blocked or topic-banned, so they cannot interfere with his crusade."

Springee is at least civil, but he misunderstands canvassing. This was a clear case at WP:GUNS: Crime list at Glock. He then uses that discussion to claim prior consensus on the Glock Talk page, as detailed in OP's report. Springee (along with RAF910) has also accused others of forum shopping on article Talk pages. See for example, Smith & Wesson M&P15 Talk page, October 2018 , four instances of "forum shopping" from Springee and one from RAF910. I discussed with Springee here.

Springee participated in prior AE requests in the topic area, so he should have known about the problematic behaviours highlighted there, such as "personalizing disputes" (Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive233#Thewolfchild), and "Canvassing amongst project members or by using project pages will be heavily frowned upon" (Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive228#Thewolfchild). --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:06, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

I should qualify my statement about civility as being too generous. Using article Talk pages to accuse others of "forum shopping" is not civil. It's WP:ASPERSIONS. If one has an issue with another editor's behaviour, then article Talk pages are not an appropriate venue. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:03, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Drmies

Hey, I'm at ARE again--it's getting to be exciting. I should run for ArbCom so I can be on these pages all the time. Cullen328, I see your kitchen knives (and earlier in the article history I felt the same way as you do) and raise you a couple of articles which, apparently, clearly link a particular gun/gun brand with a set of crimes/mass murders. Had it not been for those articles it would be an easy matter of "remove, undue". But that's all I have to say on content.

On the actual matter, well, some of the pro-gun editors have a tendency to be somewhat inflexible, and play it too personal: Trekphiler's comment, cited above, on the "effort to dirty Glock" is an example thereof; I believe this is the kind of thing that led us to the Arb case on gun control in the first place. Another thing that was so important in that case was the...let's charitably call it "quibbling" over what are reliable sources; we see some of that here. And the more you look at that comment, the more reason there is to think that they are simply too hotly involved, throwing shade on good-faith editors. Now, RAF's note on my talk page--yeah I supported removing that section earlier, and it's true that I'm a Nerfgun-toting admin, so I suppose a kind of selective canvassing is possible, but for such a judgment one would need some more evidence than just this one. Finally I'll break a lance for Springee, an editor with whom I frequently disagree (because foolishly they disagree with me), but I believe them to be working out of good faith and with a strong enough knowledge of what we're doing here. Drmies (talk) 01:41, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

• I just noticed the comment by RAF cited below by MastCell: oh dear. RAF, that is totally uncool, and the time may come that you will regret having made that comment. Personally, I hope you regret it already, and will retract. Drmies (talk) 01:44, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Pudeo

Why are these editors being bundled like this? The general behauvior of RAF910 and Springee for instance is very clearly different. Are you expecting some kind of a collective sanction?

The content issue needs to be settled for once and for all somehow. It is ridiculous to keep fighting over the criminal use section in different articles. (My opinion is that criminal use should be mentioned when there is a lot of coverage commenting exactly that, like with bump-stocks and AR-15 style rifles, but random lists of crimes in most articles is completely useless WP:TRIVIA.) In the case of Glock, the list of crimes is undue, and Dlthewave's viewpoint was in the minority and perhaps that is why he is resorting to this board.

Dlthewave's first point about canvassing the Firearms project is rather absurd when you consider that he himself has started an alternative task force called Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Politics/Gun politics. If you go look at the project's talk page, you will find Dlthewave informing the project about the criminal use RfCs and discussions. How is this any different?

I also think that the userpages (User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing of firearms articles and User:Dlthewave/Hall of Fame) are a violation of WP:POLEMIC and illustrate an uncollaborative attitude, certainly more than anything Springee has done, in any case.

MastCell's comment about the three editors having a "deep-seated partisanship" (and apparently Dlthewave not?) is strikingly biased, and given MastCell's history at AE requests that relate to gun politics and general politics, I have raised the issue directly on his talk page. --Pudeo (talk) 08:52, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Springee, Trekphiler and RAF910

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I am still looking at the dispute. But in the meantime, I would like User:Dlthewave please to explain how User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing_of_firearms_articles is not one big violation of WP:POLEMIC that ought to be deleted. GoldenRing (talk) 07:55, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

• Also, want there a big RfC on "criminal use" sections of gun articles recently? Possibly specific to the AR-15. Can someone remind me where it was? GoldenRing (talk) 07:57, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
• @Mr rnddude: The very one, thank you. GoldenRing (talk) 08:54, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
• On the dispute itself, I'd value insights from other admins, but initially I'm not seeing any need for enforcement action here. The community have decided that inclusion of such material is to be decided on a case-by-case basis and so there is nothing wrong with the existence of the discussion per se. And at this stage I'm not seeing such tendentious behaviour in that discussion that enforcement is warranted. GoldenRing (talk) 09:10, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
• Since I have received no answer from Dlthewave, I have deleted User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing_of_firearms_articles as an arbitration enforcement action for being a violation of POLEMIC.
• @MastCell: I certainly have no objection to the warning you suggest. GoldenRing (talk) 12:26, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

• As a matter of first impression, this looks primarily like a content dispute to me, and we don't resolve these via AE. I advise all editors to keep calm and avoid ad hominems, but the conduct reported here doesn't rise to the level of requiring sanctions, in my view. Sandstein 09:44, 18 February 2019 (UTC) (Disclaimer: I vaguely remember once taking part in an RfC or other discussion about this kind of topic, but I don't remember what my point of view then was, or whether I participated as editor or closing admin. Sandstein 16:24, 18 February 2019 (UTC))
• The current consensus is that criminal use of firearms may be covered in articles about those firearms on a case-by-case basis, so it's correct to call the underlying question a content dispute. However, there appear to me to be significant user-conduct issues in how that content dispute is being approached, and those issues are appropriate for discussion, and possible action, here. Specifically:
  • Dlthewave does present pretty compelling evidence of a battleground mentality on the part of RAF910 ("there are too many anti-gun editors who are pushing a political agenda, and doing everything in their power to gang-up on and ban pro-gun editors. So, despite our best efforts, I'm afraid their is very little we do about it at this time") and Trekphiler (who removed a reasonable edit with an edit summary reading "...smells like gun-confiscator propaganda...", and dismissed apparent good-faith discussion thus: "... nothing but an effort to dirty Glock firearms, & by extension, all firearms. I don't see a "criminal use" section for the 1934 Ford or the Chevrolet Impala. Why not? Because there's a hate-on for guns").
  • In this discussion, Springee and RAF910 seem to move the goalposts. They previously, and properly, insisted on evidence of coverage by independent reliable sources to justify coverage of criminal use. However, when presented with such sources, they responded with a litany of excuses that seem fundamentally like stonewalling.
• I don't think that all of Dlthewave's concerns are substantiated, but a significant subset seem to be based on valid behavioral issues. The RfC made it clear that discussions of coverage of criminal use are legitimate and need to be undertaken in good faith on a case-by-case basis, but the presented diffs show Springee, Trekphiler, and RAF910 trying to shut down such discussions as categorically inappropriate (in violation of the RfC), and attacking Dlthewave in terms that betray their own deep-seated partisanship, when Dlthewave is in fact engaged in appropriate editing and discussion.

  If I'm the only one who sees behavioral (rather than just content) issues here, then I won't push the matter, but I do think there is enough evidence here to justify at least a warning to Springee, RAF910, and Trekphiler to respect our processes and to tone down the battleground mentality. If there are previous warnings/sanctions, then a topic ban might be warranted. MastCell  19:18, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

• Thanks for highlighting the most problematic aspects. I agree with this analysis. Sandstein 23:03, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

• This really isn't an AE issue, it's more of an ANI issue. While the Arb ruling on gun control is "broadly construed", I think this is about guns, not control. That doesn't stop any admin from taking an ordinary admin action (based in part on the consensus of the aforementioned RFC), but I don't see how discretionary sanctions could be used here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:14, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Sir Joseph

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Sir Joseph

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:21, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Sir Joseph (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American_politics_2#Discretionary_sanctions_(1932_cutoff)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 01:19, 20 February 2019 - title of the section was reverted to version existing before
2. 04:18, 20 February 2019

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

N/A

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Edit-notice informing of 1RR

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

A 1 revert rule was instituted for Ilhan Omar on February 18. An edit-notice was created informing editors of that fact. Sir Joseph has previously been reverting over this same section header (eg [ here). After making two reverts, the editor was asked to self-revert. The user declined and has been editing since. A clear 1RR violation with a refusal to correct it.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Informed

Discussion concerning Sir Joseph

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Sir Joseph

This seems to be a bad faith request. As I stated on my talk page, there was no first revert, I made mention to go to Misplaced Pages:Reverting#What_is_a_reversion? where I changed the wording, which is the normal change not a reversion. MVBW then reported me to EW, and Icewhiz and SoWhy said the same thing. Admin, SoWhy explained this diff is not a reversion, and Icewhiz further clarified that the first diff Nableezy is pointing to is from weeks ago and can't be used as the first point of reference. diff I urge you all to look at the timeline of the diffs and not just Nableezy's request, we don't look at the baseline from weeks ago, this article is under 1RR. 1RR means you can't revert more than once in 24 hours. I did not revert more than once in 24 hours. I have also been participating in the discussion at the talk page and this is just playing the numbers game to get their side, which seems odd and disheartening to drag the IP conflict into a US Congresswoman's antisemitic tweets. Sir Joseph 17:37, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Sir Joseph

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.