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Respectful response to Warning

Dear Hseldon10:

I have no political vinculation or anything of the sort. I am only a THINKING mexican. Portraying López as a Center Left, not allowing renown and international news agencies opinions on what López is and the sort of leader he could be for our country does not precisely talks about your political neutrality or, for this matter, Misplaced Pages´s. He is Leftist. He is Populistic. He is violent. He does not have any respect for the law and the legal system. He knows nothing about public finances. Why avoid saying it on wikipedia´s page dedicated to him?

As I said, I have no policitcal interest but I know it is extremely important for people around the world that read about him to know who he really is.

Regards.

Gerochoa

I share your opinion about Lopez Obrador, but Misplaced Pages is not a place to post opinions. You can get a blog to do that. In Misplaced Pages we contribute with neutral content and cited sources. Please do not post your opinions in controversial articles.

Hari Seldon 15:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hari Sheldon:

With due respect, most of my words are not my opinions, they are respectable information sources, including the Lopez' Spanish version in Misplaced Pages:

- For starters, please search these three words on google: Lopez Obrador Izquierda. You will get over 438,000 sources where you can clearly see he is not "Center-Left", he is leftist.

- Check http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2006/01/20/internacional/1137778090.html, where you can see a more neutral opinion on him

- Designing "policies that appeal to low income citizens", having a "84% approval rating" and increasing over 400% the public debt of the government he led is not populism? so what is it? please check populism and see if he fits

- Violent? please check today news. Carlos Ahumada's wife was going to release 5 more videos that implicated him and persons really close to him in bribery and other sorts of extorsion. Guess what? merely 5.30 hours before the release of those videos, she and her kids get a shower of bullets from an unidentified car. is it too difficult to figure out who send the marksmen?

I am getting busy and I do not like to be called politically biased when the artcicle itself is the one that´s biased. I will do my best to have it changed to a more neutral view. Any thoughts?

Since AMLO is a controversial topic, please discuss your edits in the Talk page before editing the article page.

• Please learn to indent your comments
• The spanish version of the wikipedia has its own issues, and it is generally of a lower quality than other version
• We had a discussion in the talk-page on how to refer to AMLO. The consensus is "Center-left". Please revise Misplaced Pages policies.
• El Mundo is only one source. Neutrality is achieved with many sources. The article you submit is a statement of opinion.

There is no way to measure his public debt because of his opacity in government. Please contribute to wikipedia by finding a source for this and publishing it in the article. "Populism" is not a neutral word.

Violent is not a neutral word either. No one has yet judicially accused Lopez Obrador of attempting assasination on Ahumada's wife. Please see Videoscandals (Mexico)

My thoughts are that you are biased. Lopez Obrador is not a saint, but he isn't the devil either. Please be thoughtful of neutrality when editing, and please discuss your edits in the appropriate discussion page previously.

Hari Seldon 16:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Gerochoa.

President of Mexico

Please use verifiable sources to back up your recent additions to this article. Introducing personal opinions goes against the Neutral Point of View policy of Misplaced Pages. Thanks. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 22:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

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Please could you be a little bit more informed

What I have written the last days is not for Political Campaign. I am not with any party or with any religion. I am a M.S. student interested for the problematic that is being carried out. Calderón and the PAN were complicit in the approval of the FOBAPROA, which has been a very costly Bank rescue for mexicans. And I think this must be published as you have published the recent polls. About the polls I ask you: What polls? Not all the polls show that Calderon is being the leader.

1) They where not. The FOBAPROA is arguably a crime. It was the financial mechanism that saved the Mexican economy after the 1994 collapse.

2) If you say they where, cite your sources.

3) Incredible coincidence that you find this out only after the PRD started its mediatic campaign saying just this.

4) Even if they where, you still need to cite your sources and stop using weasel words.

5) See Mexican general election, 2006 for more information about cited sources on polls

6) This discussion belongs in the Talk:Felipe Calderon page, not here

7) Please sign your contributions to talk pages.

Hari Seldon 02:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Elected president = not a dictator

On June 3, you edited Mr. Fox's article saying "Fox is not a dictator, he is an elected President." Please remember that Adolf Hitler gained 43.9% in a democratic election before coming to power. And he sure was one dictator; in spite his 'democratic' mandate Herrk 18:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)Herrk

Of course I did not "suggest that President Fox's administration is in any way similar to Adolf Hitler's regime!". I was merely pointing out your deficienies in terms of argumentation. Herrk 18:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC)Herrk

REFORMA

I can see that you have a history for bias (with an obvious tendency to the right) and being opinionated in your contributions. This is a reminder to BEING OBJECTIVE in your Reforma piece.--Andres lopez 05:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations

Dear Hari:

I'd like to congratulate you for your honest attempts of keeping a NPOV.

It is only natural that many people come to your talk page and argue about their political beliefs after the historicaly narrow elections in Mexico, seeing how you've edited several pages about the issue. Nevertheless, you've been mature and respectful about their comments, insults, rants and whatnot.

Congratulations! Keep up the good job :)

Pablo 18:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources required

As a self-professed Wikipedian from Mexico, please help to find sources for Fresa (AfD discussion) in order to make a verifiable encyclopaedia article about the concept. See chav for how such articles should be sourced. Uncle G 11:54, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Usage of the User Monty Python userbox

Hello there...I have come up with a whole slew of new usages for the User Monty Python userbox. They are currently located in my sandbox. I would like your opinion before I put them up for general consumption, and if you have any other suggestions, please let me know.
—Lady Aleena talk/contribs 21:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

They are now on the template itself...you can see them there. - LA @ 08:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Proposal for Vicente Fox article

I look forward to working with you and others on Vicente Fox now that this incident has... passed. However, personal attacks you made against me, specifically your statement that I am a "dictator of Misplaced Pages" are not allowed, and normally are removed from Misplaced Pages pages.

I have asked three administrators, CBDunkerson, Capitalistroadster, and DMCdevit, to remove the attack, but none of them are willing to, for reasons unknown to me.

Therefore I respectfully ask you to remove them yourself. Regards, freestylefrappe 22:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

UANL Tigres

I reverted your edit to UANL Tigres article. According to Template talk:Football kit, only kit colours should be showed.--Panarjedde 22:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Concerning Oaxaca edits

Hey! Thanks for all the valuable input on the article. Would you mind perhaps formulating the changes you think should be made in a list, or even better yet, making the changes yourself and explaining the changes? The biggest problem i see with the page is that very few people are citing sources, and even fewer are making changes while explaining the changes. Also, as i mentioned on the talk page, a lot of space is taken on Brad will's death compared to everything else. I'd opt for more coverage of other things, lest it seem as if Brad Will's death is the only important thing happening. --Chalyres 08:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Calderon's cabinet

Hi Hseldon10, I've reverted most of your edits concerning Felipe Calderón's cabinet since they haven't been officially appointed. They are likely to be sworn on 1 Dec 2006, which is still 9 days away and we just can't foreknow the future. Cheers, All-Bran 19:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, that's fine, you can add a succession box for Gil Diaz, but please do not appoint Carstens as his successor just yet. Cheers, All-Bran 19:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Image:AMLO Presidencia legitima.jpg

Si publicas tu imagen en el dominio público, porque no la pones directamente en commons para que los otros proyectos tengan acceso a la imagen ? Lo hice.

Saludos.

132.248.81.29 19:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC) mffff. fr:Utilisateur:Lachaume

reverting vandalism

Hi there. You just reverted vandalism on the page on President of Mexico. Rather than marking it as a minor edit, it would probably be more informative if you mark it as an rv or rvv. Magidin 20:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Mexican election controversies

In case you are interested and/or stopped watching the page, I've begun adding quotes and links to the page on Mexican general election 2006 controversies. At least some questionable claims have been removed (perhaps as a result?), though there is still a long way to go. And some of the information I tried to add was (tentatively, at least) removed. In any case, you might want to take a look. Magidin 21:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Monterrey

I see you're in a small conflict with User:Raveonpraghga on this page. I don't really have any opinion on the issue of the relative importance of cities in Mexico, however I do feel strongly that all such statements should be sourced. (see WP:RS) It does seem to me however that two cities could claim this distinction and the matter could never be fully resolved -- its all so vague. I do want to caution you both however, not to break the three revert rule. You haven't so far, but you might just want to keep that in mind. In the grand scheme of things, its a small matter, and it would be a shame to let it explode into something bigger. Cheers. Dina 13:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Second city

Hello Hari: I'm aware of the things going on specially with those two Argentinan users. One of them "J.Alonso" is editing the article Monterrey just as a reaction of my accusation of him incurring in sockpuppetry. Can you tell me who threatened with the IP ban? AlexCovarrubias 01:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry. He cannot ban your IP, that's stupid. He is not even an administrator. The only thing he could do is "report" you for the "three reverts rule". However I reverted the information you provided because it is verifiable and properly sourced, so there's no reason for him to revert it. If you want I can give you my e-mail address so we can contact over there. AlexCovarrubias 01:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Hari. I've seen that you and Alex reverted the controversial statement about Monterrey being the "second city" of Mexico. Unfortunately, Alex took it as a "personal attack" from my part, which is far from true, given that I am not even Argentine, but Mexican (and before you accuse me of joining hands with Raveonpraghga, not even from Guadalajara). I was actually engaged in an unfortunate and unprofitable discussion with Raveonpraghga because he insisted on claiming that Guadalajara was the "second most important city". It is not that I think that Monterrey should "have the title". But, like Dina, I don't agree with its vagueness and ambiguity. For me, subjective titles, based on our own reasoning and perception are far from encyclopedic or rigorously academic. If someone says "Monterrey outranked Guadalajara decades ago" this statement is not only debatable, but unsourced.

Let me try to explain what I am trying to say, in the same way I tried to explain Alex. In the argument I had with Raveonpraghga I contested his statement (that Guadalajara is the second most important city) because of its vagueness. Guadalajara could well be the second most populated conurbation and perhaps the second most important cultural city in the country (given their numerous and renown cultural and artistic conferences it hosts). Yet, it is not the second most important industrial city (that is Monterrey) nor the second most important in economic size (that "honor" belongs neither to Monterrey nor to Guadalajara, but to Garza-García as measured by GDP per capita, even if it is part of the metro area of Monterrey). Moreover, Guadalajara is definitely not the second most important tourist center (as it had been claimed) but Cancun and even though it is home to very important universities, the city with the greatest number of universities in Mexico, outside of Mexico City is Puebla, which is, arguably, the second most important educational hub (I am not talking about "quality" or ranking, which obviously belongs to ITESM, but of number of out-of-state students).

I think that by now you get a glimpse of what I am trying to say. Monterey undoubtedly is the second most important city in many aspects, but not all, and given that Guadalajara and Monterrey are in many standards "second", the issue will not be solved by "our perceptions" nor by trying to provide a list of "characteristics" in which we can prove that one city is "the second", because, on the other hand, you will find a list of "characteristics" in which the former outranks the latter, and the discussion will never end. That is why, in that particular discussion in the Spanish wikipedia with Raveonpraghga, as well as in this discussion about Monterrey, and for the sake of academic and encyclopedic rigor, it is better to say that which is true and unarguable. In other words, it is better to go to specifics, for example: Monterrey is the tenth most populated municipality though its metropolitan area is the third most populated; it is the second most important industrial hub in the country (as measured by industrial GDP), the first city ranked in entrepreneurship (above Mexico City, based on America Economia), and is home to the most important private university in Latin America (based on whatever ranking).

I don't think you will find a source that explicitly states that Monterrey is the second most important city in Mexico (ambiguous), yet, I have found (unfortunately, because I still oppose their ambiguity) sources that state that Guadalajara is the second city in the country. In either case, both claims are subjective, based on "which characteristics" we choose to consider (arbitrary) and which we try to overlook. I guess if a source can be found, a statement like "John Smith, an expert in demography and economics states that Monterrey is the second most important city".

Do let me know what you think, and I invite you, like I did Alex, to participate constructively on the debates by providing sources and being open to new approaches to the same issue.

Cheers, --Alonso 02:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Great!! Thanks for your response! Even though I think convincing Raveonpraghga of deleting that statement from Guadalajara's article will prove to be quite a challenging task. He also accused me of vandalism in the Spanish wiki, and in fact vandalized my own User page, and even "threatened" of blocking my account (a silly threat since we was a new user). I resorted to asking an admin to semiprotect the article, which of course, didn't prevent him, as a registered user, of editing the article at will. Even if in the short-run, he doesn't agree to eliminate the statement and re-inserts it, I would think it would be wise to show our commitment to academic honesty (and a little Wikipedian etiquette) if we do our part eliminating the statement from the Monterrey article while we continue to demand the same thing from the Guadalajara article. --Alonso 03:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

At least lets show the consensus on the Guadalajara page so that other editors can revert his vandalism. Hari Seldon 03:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Mexican League final placing

You recently reverted my edits to the Mexican teams' final places. I've already told you that using general statements like "did not qualify for playoffs" is not only not helpful, but implies that a team finished in a respectable position, even if they finished dead last like Tigres did. You seem to think that this is some personal attack on your team. Well, guess what? For being last, Tigres will be relegated to Segunda Division, so pretty soon everyone will see how "disrespectable" Tigres is. Saying a team finished last when they did is not an insult. Besides, other club articles like Wigan Athletic and VfB Stuttgart are specific and use numbers instead of "did not qualify for playoffs" to describe a team's final place, so why should Mexican teams be any different?--DethFromAbove 21:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Your Point: The Mexican league system for tallying up final positions is so complicated we shouldn't bother trying to decide who ended up where.

My Point: Current "consensus" is too vague and not at all helpful.

If there are better, albeit more complicated, ways of presenting accurate information, why can't we do those? Information for the Mexican league should be complicated because the Mexican league is unique in its determination of final positions. You said the only fair way of judging would be to present their league, percentual, playoff, and group positions for all teams. Why can't we do that?--DethFromAbove 23:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

ITESM citations

Hey, I was looking at the official ITESM site and can't find the 99% part, can you point me to were you found it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Solid Reign (talk • contribs) 04:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

So, should I remove it? I tried searching with google for this, however all I could find is in the mission statement a remark like "Professors should have a higher degree than what they teach." However, I think this is from the 2005 mission statement. The same goes for the research part, I can't find anything that says it's a great part of what they're trying to accomplish. So, should they stay or should they go? Solid Reign 14:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Second City

Hey man, guess what I just found out. Regiabeauty is none other than Raveonpraghga. I began to suspect, like you, that he (she?) was the same guy since he was making the same grammar and spelling mistakes, and the fact that the arguments were pretty much similar. Anyway, the first edit under the name "Regiabeauty" was done by the anonymous IP address: 68.229.63.236 . Then he created the account User:Regiabeauty and began posting with that name. Yet, if you click on the contributions of 68.229.63.236, you will find that he introduced himself to Dina, on his very first intervention as Roberto Maya , and then as Robert Mayan (since he is probably using an automatic translator!), which happens to be real name of User:Raveonpraghga as it can be attested in his same user page. This same 68.229.63.236 also edited Raveonpraghga's User Page adding his personal information . And, he couldn't have been more obvious, without logging in, and using IP 68.229.63.236 again he signed explicitly as Raveonpraghga in here and here. I am reporting him at Misplaced Pages:Suspected_sock_puppets. Please feel free to participate in the discussion that will follow. --Alonso 06:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

A question

Hey Hari, how well do you know Alex Covarrubias? The thing is, he's engaged in several discussions trying to prove how Mexico is so much better than any of the other Latin American nations; yet rather than discussing for the most part he is reverting all edits that might try to show otherwise and even deleting compromising information (like the HDI index from the Latin America article, since Mexico really doesn't do that well on Human development). What surprised me is that a "new" user, User:Dr.Kerr happens to be recently participating in the same articles (Newly industrialized nation, developing nation, Latin America) making similar changes and claims, and while claiming to be from McAllen, he is making the same grammar mistakes. --Alonso 16:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for answering. I have asked him on several occasions to participate constructively in some discussions (like the one about Mexico's superior standard of living driving Argentine immigration), yet he never answered back and even deleted my petition from his talk page. Like I said, he hasn't really participated in discussions, he is simply "reverting" changes and deleting compromising information without explaining why. In any case you might want to review the history of Latin America's article, mainly the Economics section. --Alonso 16:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Not yet, I won't file an accusation against him. I don't think it is as obvious as Raveonpraghgas. And, he first accused me of so (without being able to back it up) so he might take this personal. I rather wait and see what else Dr. Kerr does. If he continues to participate in the same discussions and articles, or if he continues to follow the same "reversion" pattern, then I guess we should do it. --Alonso 16:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey, Alex filed an accusation against me. I am filing an accusation against him based on what I showed you about Dr. Kerr. I still have to defend myself, and I will request our IP addresses to be checked (I've got nothing to hide). I ask you to participate in the discussion if you wish to: Misplaced Pages:Suspected_sock_puppets/J.Alonso --Alonso 04:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for participating. As you can see more users are giving their opinions; one of them proposed that Alex's account gets blocked. We will see how this discussion ends up. Best case scenario, Alex's account doesn't get blocked and he beings to participate constructively. I've seen some of his contributions in graphic design which have been useful. Yet, when it comes to discussions, he needs to learn to debate properly.

By the way, I added the reference links on the second city proposal, like you had suggested before. Like you said, a page with references is harder to vandalize. And, even if it gets vandalized, since we are providing evidence, most administrators will simply revert it, instead of reopening the debate over and over. But, of course, if you find more information about Monterrey (or Guadalajara) that would enhance or even change the proposal, by all means add it. After a discussion like the one we had in Second city, we get to know other users and see which users have good-will, are cooperative, and present valuable information and intelligent arguments. You were one of them. I hope we can work together in other articles and projects in the future. Cheers, --Alonso 00:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Apology

Hari, I apologize if you felt offended at any point by my comments or if the tone that I have use in my edits is too rough. I want, however, to praise you for your good intentions and the enthusiasm you have for participating to provide the readers of this encyclopedia with an idea of what Mexico is. It takes a better man to admit to be mistaken, and I do not have anything but respect for the fact that you always read and accept other's points of view. Hopefully I will have the opportunity to participate with you in improving this invaluable resource ' wikipedia' Andy Rosenthal 03:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

User:Instinkt

This user, Instinkt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) made a large number of changes to articles on Mexican football teams, which I suspect, (partly due to your objections on his talk page and partly because he deleted a line about the Chivas winning the championship on Dec 10, as well as other edits I recognize as wrong) are pura porqueria. I reverted all his recent edits, you may wish to review what I did as I'm not familiar with many of the players or recent player trades. You can review his edits by clicvking on "Contribs" above. Saludos desde Chicago! Tubezone 15:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree about assuming good faith, but in the case of potential mass vandalism, I would rather revert and let the editors sort out what should stay. Unfortunately in some cases bad information has remained in articles for months. Thank you for reviewing and correcting the articles. ¡Feliz navidad! Tubezone 18:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)