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Material from Black Lives Matter was split to All Lives Matter on 04:47, 5 September 2016. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution.

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: R.L.G. (January 15, 2015). "#BlackLivesMatter". The Economist. Gretchen McCulloch (January 29, 2015). "Is a Hashtag a Word? The Case of #BlackLivesMatter". Slate. Jeff Guo (October 25, 2016). "Misplaced Pages is fixing one of the Internet's biggest flaws". The Washington Post. For instance—right now on the page for Black Lives Matter, there's an anonymous contributor who is upset that the article doesn't mention George Soros, who is believed by some on the alt-right to be the movement's ultimate sponsor. (It's not true.) The contributor accuses the pages editors of conspiring 'portray BLM in the most favorable light possible.' 'Easy,' one of the editors responds. 'Take a breath and let's see what we can agree on.'

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Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2020

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Request to remove the two paragraphs in the "United Kingdom" section, specifically these two :

"In London, after it was defaced a few days earlier, protestors defaced the Statue of Winston Churchill, Parliament Square, Westminster with graffiti for a second time. Black spray paint was sprayed over his name and the words "was a racist" were sprayed underneath. A protestor also attempted to burn the Union Jack Flag flying at the Cenotaph, a memorial to Britain’s war dead. Later in the evening violence broke out between protestors and Police. A total of 49 Police Officers were injured after demonstrators threw bottles and fireworks at them.

Over the weekend, a total of 135 arrests were made by Police. British Prime Minister Boris Johnson commented on the events saying "those who attack public property or the police – who injure the police officers who are trying to keep us all safe – those people will face the full force of the law; not just because of the hurt and damage they are causing, but because of the damage they are doing to the cause they claim to represent. "

REASON:

The impression is strongly given that these have been included merely for reasons of political bias and/or to provide skewed negative associations, as they are completely irrelevant and have absolutely nothing to do with the subject ("Black Lives Matter") which the article is about. Vandalism and the other petty crimes mentioned were not sanctioned by the protest movement and are in any case not particularly unusual events, and unlike the Colston statue issue in Bristol, in this case did not have greater symbolic or public significance or effect. It would be more useful, interesting and informative if the article had included, for instance, information on the number of protesters and some of their demands.

The comments of the Prime Minister given here are also completely irrelevant to the subject. If he should be included at all, the relevant part of his speech, ommitted for unknown/questionable reasons, is where he says "“You are right, we are all right, to say Black Lives Matter; and to all those who have chosen to protest peacefully and who have insisted on social distancing – I say, yes of course I hear you, and I understand.'".

SpurredByLove (talk) 08:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

As for the second request, regarding the Cenotaph, the source says: Even some supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement worried that the vandalism of the statue would only alienate Britons from the cause of social justice. But others thought the graffiti was spot-on, seeing such acts as manifestations of justifiable rage.

So I believe it has relevance there. The first event, re the statue, would need some researching to ensure it's not connected in any way (in which case, removal may appear correct). Regarding the speech, the former comment from the PM should probably be added. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 03:07, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. There appears to be a discussion in this section about the merits of this change. Please note that edit requests should only be made once a consensus has been reached. Please continue this discussion in another section on this talk page and gain a consensus before reopening this request. Thanks. — Tartan357   23:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Funding section

The Funding section claims "Black Lives Matter have received over $100 million in funding from the Open Society Foundations, Ford Foundation and Borealis Philanthropy among others. In addition, the Black Lives Matter Movement has received support from organizations and foundations like the Black Youth Project 100, the Black Civic Engagement Fund, the Center for Popular Democracy, Color of Change and the Advancement Project."

This seems very poorly sourced. The 2016 Washington Times article which claims "Black Lives Matter is increasingly awash in cash, raking in pledges of more than $100 million" appears to confuse Black Lives Matter with Movement for Black Lives. It also claims the Soros foundation gave $33 million to BLM, which has been fact checked by Snopes and found to be the total donated by OSF to all organisations with even the most tangential of connections to the Ferguson protests. The Politico article "major donors consider funding black lives matter" doesn't mention any figures at all.

At the very least, it needs clarification of what is meant by 'Black Lives Matter' in the context of funding - namely dozens of different organisations involved in racial equality and justice in some way.

The most recent tax filing I can find for the Black Lives Matter Foundation (the organisation rather than the broader movement) is from 2017 and is for $279,109. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nephtys84 (talk • contribs) 08:36, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. If anything, it looks like referencing funding goals over the next 10 years and not remotely a received funding. --Msherby (talk) 00:09, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Looking at the section and references again, I think this funding section needs a lot of re-work to make accurate, including new references. The two references are from 2016 and not good quality. Msherby (talk) 00:22, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

The 279,109 amount you are talking about is for the Black Lives Matter Foundation which is different from the Black Lives Matter Global Network. The Global Network is the corporation linked at the top of this wiki article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bewkid (talk • contribs) 21:47, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Why was this even removed? Even the Black Lives Matter website has a donation button right at the top of the page. When you click on "Donate" it even shows their registration ID's in each state. The reason why as someone mentioned above there hasn't been a donation to the actual foundation since 2017 is because all donations now go through ActBlue. It also says this on the Black Lives Matter official website. Here is the direct website: https://blacklivesmatter.com/ You can clearly see the giant blue "Donate" button, and when you click it, you can see the registration ID's on the right side of the page, and what organization is handling the BLM donations for them. The Funding section needs to go back up. 2601:145:500:831:40F7:D571:8CE5:B24 (talk) 22:34, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Ford Foundation claims to fund "Movement for Black Lives" (aka M4BL) on its own website. This link also confirms the funding from Borealis Philanthropy:

https://www.fordfoundation.org/ideas/equals-change-blog/posts/why-black-lives-matter-to-philanthropy/

"Movement for Black Lives" is NOT in fact separate from BLM. M4BL is a coalition of groups which includes BLM (https://en.wikipedia.org/Movement_for_Black_Lives https://web.archive.org/web/20190502120213/https://policy.m4bl.org/about/)

From Borealis Philanthropy, we see a quote from a senior member of Open Society Foundations which confirms their support for M4BL (and hence BLM):

“We are proud to be a BLMF donor in this important political moment because supporting the Movement for Black Lives (M4BL) is what will make long-lasting, systemic change possible,” said Alvin Starks, Senior Program Officer with the equality team of the Open Society Foundations’ U.S. Programs.

https://borealisphilanthropy.org/black-led-movement-fund-2018-grantees-focus-on-cross-movement-collaboration/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.247.111.114 (talk) 00:00, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 June 2020 ( Marxism )

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Remove reference to 'Marxism' as an aim of BLM in the sidebar. This is completely unfounded and the supporting references for this claim are from established right-wing agitating sources. The references quoted do not support the inclusion of Marxism as an aim of BLM in any way. 212.69.53.171 (talk) 14:19, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Aren't some of the founders self-described Marxists?- "She describes herself as a Marxist and a queer social justice activist" from- https://en.wikipedia.org/Alicia_Garza

 Done That was vandalism that has been removed. Garza may identify as Marxist, but that doesn't mean BLM is too. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:49, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

They are "trained Marxists" according to one of the founders, Patrisse Cullors: https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/video-resurfaces-which-black-lives-matter-founder-says-groups-creators-are-trained https://therealnews.com/stories/pcullors0722blacklives — Preceding unsigned comment added by Psyden (talk • contribs) 03:04, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Marxists https://modernsurvivalblog.com/current-events/blm-co-founder-reveals-they-are-trained-marxists/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/12/make-no-mistake-blm-radical-neo-marxist-political-movement/ TudorTulok (talk) 16:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

• TudorTulok, please cite reliable sources, not blogs and opinion pieces. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 23:41, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

If white lives matter can be tagged with alt-right with a weak connection, surely Marxism can be tied to BLM. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ice fly editor (talk • contribs) 02:38, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

• Ice fly editor, yes, if that were the case, then... but it's not. Drmies (talk) 23:41, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Category:Dishonoured statues

I have created Category:Dishonoured statues (0) (talk) (first member was Statue of Edward Colston; it now includes a Stalin ;-) ). See also its talkpage for consistent & useful usage. -DePiep (talk) 19:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

this is a welcomed category but 'dishonoured' seems like a catch-all term that could encompass many things, from a vandalistic graffiti to a statue being torn down. (PS: see Decommunization in Ukraine, List of communist monuments in Ukraine, Demolition of monuments to Vladimir Lenin in Ukraine, Category:Destroyed landmarks in Ukraine, Category:Destroyed sculptures, Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials, etc. for other examples to add to your category).Alcaios (talk) 20:02, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

(ec) (I just lost my reply, will reply to first version) -DePiep (talk) 20:23, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

(ec) @Alcaios: Yes, 'inclusion creep' is tricky (see also the cat:talk). That is why the category page has in its intro "... explicitly and more permanently dishonoured". This excludes e.g. paint throwing. and we'll see how this develops. Existing categories Dishonoured and Destroyed do not have this dimension. This is wikipedia, so development is open :-)

Sorry for the edit conflict, I was including other articles to help you. Alcaios (talk) 20:44, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

OK (I usually don't lose my edit in an ec; probably now bc the earlier post was edited). BTW, I have checked Category:Destroyed sculptures and lots of Ukrainian statues qualified for inclusion. You can take a look & check. -DePiep (talk) 12:58, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, the new category is open for WP:DIFFUSE: subcategories for Ukraine, US-confederates, UK-colonialism, Stalin, ... may be created. I do not know the Ukraine history well enough to be specific about Ukraine. -DePiep (talk) 20:39, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Maybe notability is best secured when the statue itself has its own article. -DePiep (talk) 20:45, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Organization structure

This article is missing information about how the organization is legally structured and should include incorporation or non-profit information. FinalNemesis (talk) 14:09, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2020

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40.142.143.153 (talk) 12:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Ford did not donate to BLM. But they did donate to black lives movement. They are totally different.

 Done Removed, thanks. Existing source said the same, but also noting this article: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ford-motors-funds-black-lives-matter/ ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 03:12, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2020

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change African-American to Black, many Black-Americans do not have origins in Africa. 206.176.144.9 (talk) 14:02, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

All humans have origins in Africa. There are African Americans descended from the slave trade, and others who are recent migrants from Africa. Who are these non-Africa-related black Americans you speak of? Aboriginals are called "black" in Australia, but I doubt their small presence alone is enough to remove "African-American" from this page. Wallachia Wallonia (talk) 23:24, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:05, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• March against the Yanez not guilty verdict in the shooting of Philando Castile (35229974362).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:52, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Only in the Western world?

BLM appear to only exist in the Western world & have no interest in what happens elsewhere. The article should state why they ignore what's happening in the rest of the world. The vast majority of black people don't live in the West, so it's strange to exclude them. Is there an explanation for their narrow focus? Jim Michael (talk) 11:25, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

We can only state that with reliable sources. Otherwise it would be original research. No focus on Latin America or the Caribbean either, for that matter, it's all about rich Western countries. But if that is what the sources say, our hands are tied. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 17:08, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Secrecy and confusion

The domain name "blacklivesmatter.com" is registered by "GoDaddy.com, LLC". The registrant's e-mail address is "blacklivesmatter.com@domainsbyproxy.com". The name of the registrant is not provided. Why is the registrant's name being kept secret? There is a Delaware corporation named "Black Lives Matter Global Network, Inc." (no. 6194815; incorporated 11/18/2016). And there is a California corporation named "Black Lives Matter Foundation" (no. C3790568; incorporated 5/22/2015). Which of these two corporations is the article titled "Black Lives Matter" about? Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 17:30, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@Scott Gregory Beach: This article is not about a particular corporation, it concerns the overarching Black Lives Matter movement. If you have queries about domain registration, you would be better off directing them to the domain registering company (which you seem to have identified as being GoDaddy). You may find the help page for talk pages useful to confirm what the scope is of topics here. Hope this helps. Best, Darren-M talk 20:53, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining that the article is about a social movement, not about a particular organization. Since that is the case, the "Infobox organization" should be removed from the article because it gives the false impression that the article is about a particular organization. Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 21:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@Scott Gregory Beach: I think the infobox itself is useful, but I've amended the organisation type from "Activist organisation", to "Activist movement". I think this better reflects the content we already have elsewhere (especially the lead), which explicitly details that while formal 'chapters' exist, Black Lives Matters itself is an informal movement. Best, Darren-M talk 21:25, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Many people say that they donate(d) money to BLM. If it's a movement rather than an org, who receives the money? Jim Michael (talk) 08:23, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

BLM not a tax exempt charity?

The Internal Revenue Service continuously publishes and regularly updates its "list of organizations eligible to receive tax-deductible charitable contributions".

Publication 78 Data: https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/tax-exempt-organization-search-bulk-data-downloads

The Delaware corporation "Black Lives Matter Global Network, Inc." (no. 6194815; incorporated 11/18/2016) is not on that list of "eligible" organizations.

And the Delaware corporation "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc." (no. 6518139; incorporated 10/16/2017) is not on that list of "eligible" organizations.

It therefore appears that neither of these corporations is eligible to receive tax-deductible charitable contributions.

So where is the money going?

"Black Lives Matter Managing Director Roasted for Dodging Questions on Finances, Antisemitism". Breitbart, June 10, 2020.

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 20:45, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@Scott Gregory Beach: I am unclear what edit you are suggesting here, but it is worth calling out that Breitbart is a blacklisted source except for opinion. Further detail here: WP:BREITBART. If you have a desired change, either be bold, or make sure to provide sufficient detail here including reliable sources so somebody can review it and add. Best, Darren-M talk 21:30, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I took you advice. I boldly added a couple of sentences to "Loose structure". Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 03:59, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

@Darren-M: It appears that Scott Gregory Beach is correct. The blacklivesmatter.com website is not affiliated with the Black Lives Matter global movement. See https://www.complex.com/life/2020/06/black-lives-matter-foundation-not-affiliated-with-movement or any of the other articles that have come out in the past few days regarding this. MikeToddATL

Hard-Left Organisation that supports the removal of police across the world

I have included some links for the people who don't have the general knowledge on this organisation. The BLM website also shows they are a communist organisation. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/12/make-no-mistake-blm-radical-neo-marxist-political-movement/ https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/how-the-black-lives-matter-movement-went-mainstream/2020/06/09/201bd6e6-a9c6-11ea-9063-e69bd6520940_story.html (Airline7375 (talk) 17:56, 15 June 2020 (UTC))

Per WaPo: "As consensus grows about the existence of systemic racism in American policing and other facets of American life, longtime organizers of the Black Lives Matter movement are trying to extend its momentum beyond the popularization of a phrase. Activists sense a once-in-a-generation opportunity to demand policy changes that once seemed far-fetched, including sharp cuts to police budgets in favor of social programs, and greater accountability for officers who kill residents." The Telegraph piece is an op-ed. I don't see any mention of marxism on the BLM website that you linked to. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 18:09, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Airline7375, please keep your point of view and original research off of this talk page and stick with what reliable sources actually say, none of which call BLM "communist".. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:13, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually, you're the one who needs to keep the point of view out of this discussion, which you do by dismissing the facts as mere "point of view" and even in your claim as to which sources constitute reliable sources and do not. The affiliation of the Black Lives Matter movement with the Communist umbrella organization FRSO (Freedom Road Socialist Organization) is now well-known and well-established; under which its founders have been trained as Marxist organizers (as stated here by one of its founders https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=342) - and as cited here https://backtojerusalem.com/we-are-trained-marxists-says-blm-co-founder-patrisse-cullors/, here https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/12/make-no-mistake-blm-radical-neo-marxist-political-movement/ and a growing number of other places now. The founder Alicia Garza is currently the leader of the FRSO/Liberty Road affiliate "Left Roots" and received training at the 2014 Mapping Socialist Strategies retreat, which was organized by the Rosa Luxembourg Foundation. Opal Tometi took over, as executive director, the Black Alliance for Just Immigration from Gerald Lenoir who was the leader of the Maoist-leaning Line of March group and she also attended the Mapping Socialist Strategies seminar on June 4, 2015. Patrisse Cullors (the one who speaks in the video, describing herself as peers as trained Marxist organizers) studied in LA under Eric Mann, a life-long Maoist and former member of SDS, the Weathermen, and the League of Revolutionary Struggle. There is no "original research" or "point of view" involved in any of these facts. And it all needs to be included on the page.

Follow the money

A California nonprofit public benefit corporation named International Development Exchange was formed on May 16, 1985. https://businesssearch.sos.ca.gov/Document/RetrievePDF?Id=01275657-3638077

International Development Exchange changed it name to Thousand Currents on May 3, 2017. https://businesssearch.sos.ca.gov/Document/RetrievePDF?Id=01275657-22294922

A Delaware corporation named "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc." was formed on October 16, 2017.

Thousand Currents is the fiscal sponsor of Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc.

In 2017, Thousand Currents gave a "cash grant" of $62,000 to a California corporation named Black Lives Matter Foundation. https://thousandcurrents.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/THOUSAND-CURRENTS-2017-990-PDC.pdf And in the previous year, Thousand Currents gave $28,130 to Black Lives Matter Foundation. https://thousandcurrents.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/FY17-990-Thousand-Currents.pdf

Black Lives Matter Foundation receives cash grants from Thousand Currents, and Thousand Currents is the fiscal sponsor of Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. This makes me wonder whether Thousand Currents is receiving charitable donations on behalf of Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. and whether Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. is instructing Thousand Currents to give some of the donated moneys to Black Lives Matter Foundation.

"The Black Lives Matter Foundation" Raised Millions. It's Not Affiliated With The Black Lives Matter Movement. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/black-lives-matter-foundation-unrelated-blm-donations

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 02:11, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

"Cease and Desist Order"

Issued to Black Lives Matter Foundation

Issued by Xavier Becerra, California Attorney General

Dated "December 2, 2019"

http://rct.doj.ca.gov/Verification/Web/Download.aspx?saveas=1520997+.pdf&document_id=09027b8f803ac14f

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 04:48, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Position on Israel still current?

First, as another user mentioned, the statement on Israel was apparently made by the Movement for Black Lives (perhaps not even that organization directly), not Black LIves Matter, so does this section belong here? Here's the article on the subject: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/08/why-did-black-american-activists-start-caring-about-palestine/496088/

Second, that article is from 2016. I've been crawling all over the BLM and the M4BL websites, and I can't find a position on Israel anywhere currently on either of those sites. I've been doing a keyword search for "Israel" on all pages - nothing. Perhaps it's been removed? And if so, shouldn't that be mentioned? M4BL got an awful lot of flack for the wording of that statement back in 2016, wouldn't be surprised if the position has simply quietly "disappeared" from any public statements since then. If someone else can find it, please clear up the mystery!142.202.44.13 (talk) 14:00, 17 June 2020 (UTC)Hat Wever

This is highly important to the Jewish community and may be important to inter-sectional researchers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ice fly editor (talk • contribs) 02:41, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Cultural impacts of the Black Lives Matter movement

I would like to create a new article for cultural outcomes of the Black Lives Matter movement. Perhaps Cultural impacts of the Black Lives Matter movement or another name that is meant to cover art, street art, music, literature, etc.

I am not finding an existing article like this... and this article has an Influences section where I suggest having a paragraph with a {{main}} link to this new article.

Just checking in here regarding this approach and article title... while I will start compiling information. Any thoughts or suggestions about the new article and its title?–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:45, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

I just found Civil rights movement in popular culture. Perhaps the title could be Black Lives Matter movement in popular culture.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:48, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Help needed over at List of police violence incidents during George Floyd protests

There are some 700+ reported cases of police violence, we need lots of help to find reliable sources for them, if such sources exist. Feoffer (talk) 04:47, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Feoffer, Is there some way to filter which reported cases are notable? Or, is there a way to group some of them by place and date?

I was thinking that it might be nice to add a column for outcome, particularly for the instances of significant injuries due to excessive force.

If the list could be grouped or filtered, I would be happy to help.–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:54, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

For ones not already included in the article, there's an online spreadsheet , you could sort it by city.

For the ones already in our wikipedia article, you can sort by Location. Feoffer (talk) 03:18, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Feoffer, Your intention is to add all 700 or so instances?–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

My hope is to include all the incidents that merited coverage in reliable sources. But many of the "numbered" incidents don't merit inclusion. Feoffer (talk) 19:25, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Gotcha. I'll work on it tonight.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:14, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Social network analysis and BLM

The primary BLM "hub" describes itself as a "Global Network". I believe that BLM is a social network and that social network analysis can be used to analyze and describe BLM.

The first paragraph of the article about BLM might be revised to read:

Black Lives Matter (BLM) is a global social network. The network is composed of individuals and organizations. Some components of the network are affiliated with a Delaware corporation named Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. That corporation refers to its affiliates as "chapters".

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 15:31, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

WP:No original research. Also, we're not here to promote a foundation that's exploiting the movement (not a "social network"). Ian.thomson (talk) 22:39, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Ian, are you confusing the California corporation named "Black Lives Matter Foundation" with the Delaware corporation named "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc."? According to BLMGNF,Inc., Black Lives Matter Foundation is not affiliated with BLMGNF,Inc. Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 23:00, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2020

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Definition is blatantly false. BLM is not a peaceful or non violent protest group by any definition. Looting and rioting is not peaceful! Please correct the definition. 198.45.162.49 (talk) 21:52, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

This is not a legitimate request per WP:ER. Lester Mobley (talk) 22:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Cops are called peace officers even though kneeling on someone's neck for over eight minutes, shooting someone with a malfunctioning brakelight in the back, lynching someone over a traffic stop, shooting a jogger in the back, shooting a man in his home because the cop couldn't remember where she lived, and shooting a sleeping woman because the police had the wrong house by ten miles are all pretty much the opposite of peaceful. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:50, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Black Lives Matter (social movement)

According to Misplaced Pages, "A social movement is a loosely organized effort by a large group of people to achieve a particular goal, typically a social or political one".

The title of the Misplaced Pages article about "Black Lives Matter" should be changed to "Black Lives Matter (social movement)". Then, within that article, the organizations participating in the movement can be identified and described. This structure will help readers to understand that "Black Lives Matter" is a social movement (not an organization) and that many different organization are participating in the movement. Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 23:59, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

The addition of a parenthetical, like "(social movement)", is used to disambiguate a name or title from other uses. I am not aware of another use of Black Lives Matter and there isn't another article titled Black Lives Matter, so why disambiguate?–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:37, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Carole: There are about two dozen organizations that use the words "Black Lives Matter" in their names. For example, "Black Lives Matter Vancouver".

When people see "Black Lives Matter" they sometimes assume that "Black Lives Matter" is an abbreviated version of an organization's name. For example, they might assume that "Black Lives Matter" is an abbreviation of the legal name "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc."

The Misplaced Pages article about Black Lives Matter should clearly and carefully distinguish between Black Lives Matter (the social movement) and the organizations that participate in that movement.

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 01:53, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Scott, I am not quite understanding your point. The social media hashtag #BlackLives Matter led to the movement and legal entity / foundation. And chapters were formed, such as Black Lives Matter Vancouver.

Just out of curiosity, aside from the location based names, like Black Lives Matter Vancouver, what do you anticipate would be the topic of the article "Black Lives Matter" if this article was moved to "Black Lives Matter (social movement)"?

In other words, what is the most common use of "Black Lives Matter" that should be differentiated (disambiguated) from "Black Lives Matter (social movement)"?–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:15, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Added "not quite" above.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:35, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

If you are suggesting two articles:

The article could be split into one article about the social movement that excludes the information specific to the Black Lives Matter organization / foundation and its chapters, which would have its own article.

In that case, I would think that the social movement should probably be the main article (what most people think of as BLM) and the formal organization and chapters should likely be disambiguated, such as "Black Lives Matter (organization)" or "Black Lives Matter (foundation)".

I assume that the article about the organization would be a relatively short article about the actual founding of the organizations, its leaders, and its chapters, with most of the information in the movement article + a bit of cross-reference information and links to the other article.

If you think that this should be broken into two articles, the process is to post the {{Split}} template on the article and explain what you think that the content should be in each article for discussion.

If you are saying that the information specifically about the foundation and its chapters should have its own section (which sounds like you are saying), that would be pretty easy to do, but there would be no need to rename the article "Black Lives Matter (social movement)", right?–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:43, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Carole: Searching the United States "Trademark Electronic Search System" for the words "Black Lives Matter" yields a list that includes 28 records. One of those records has the "Serial Number 88958933" The record shows that the owner is "Fisher, Haig INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 315 Meigs Rd. #A-281 Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93109". The "Goods and Services" section of the record reads "IC 035. US 100 101 102. G & S: Political party services, namely, promoting the interests of a political organization; Providing a website featuring information about political issues; Providing information regarding political issues, knowing how to vote and knowing how to register to vote; Providing information, news, and commentary in the field of politics".

At this point, I believe that there is no person or organization that has the exclusive right to use the name "Black Lives Matter".

Yes, "The social media hashtag #BlackLivesMatter led to the movement and legal entity / foundation". But there is not just one legal entity that uses "Black Lives Matter" in its name. There are 4 Delaware corporations and 3 California corporations that have the words "Black Lives Matter" in their names and probably many more in other states and provinces and other jurisdictions.

Throughout this article, I am only seeing Black Lives Matter mentioned for the social movement and the global network foundation. (And, of course, there are chapters that contain the name Black Lives Matter + the city.) Article titles for pages that would otherwise have the same name are: given the non-disambiguated name to the most common usage (See WP:PRIMARYTOPIC discussion of usage) and a disambiguated name for other uses. I suppose a Black Lives Matter (disambiguation) page could be created with Black Lives Matter, Black Lives Matter (global organization) (or other disambig name) and whatever uses that you found that might justify its own article in the future. Plus, have an {{Other uses}} template at the top of the BLM articles.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

The article currently reads, in part: An organization known simply as "Black Lives Matter" exists as a decentralized network with over 30 chapters worldwide". That statement is not true. The corporation named "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc." has a website and numerous "chapters". That corporation may sometimes use "Black Lives Matter" as an abbreviation of its full, legal name but that usage not does legally change its name to "simply" Black Lives Matter. To legally change its name it would have to adopt and file an amendment to its articles of incorporation.

It says "known simply as" - Black Lives Matter is used throughout the BLM website. I think it would be good, though, to state the full foundation name.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done with this diff. Please feel free to edit the note, etc.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:24, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Adding "(social movement)" to the title of the article would not be necessary if the first paragraph of the article defined Black Lives Matter as a "social movement" and states that many organizations use the words "Black Lives Matter" in their full names.

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 14:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

The article would not need to say that many organizations use the words "Black Lives Matter". Misplaced Pages is not a directory. It would be good to have a section about the organization and chapters with the full / legal name.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Carole: States have laws that regulate the names of corporations. In general, a corporation's name cannot include the word "bank" or "trust" unless a state regulatory agency gives a proposed corporation permission use those words. And some states require that a corporation's name shall identify the corporation as a corporation by including the words "corporation" or "incorporated" or "inc" or "corp", etc. I do not know what Delaware's corporation naming laws provide but I would not presume the it is acceptable to delete "Foundation, Inc." from the name of the largest social movement organization in the Black Lives Matters social movement. Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 19:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Scott Gregory Beach, Please feel free to change it to what you believe it should be, but I think that you'll need another source. I used a page on the BLM website for the citation. In addition, I think the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation is another entity that provides grants for local BLM efforts. I believe it is also sometime called Black Lives Matter Foundation, but I am not sure that they are exactly the same. It sounds like you might have a good handle on this, though.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:44, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Statistics

I think it could be helpful to include some statistics that give more context on the issue of police violence toward black people in the U.S. Would it be best to include these in the Criticism section, or somewhere else? For example, according to an article in the Wall Street Journal: "In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015. That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population....The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. " Stonkaments (talk) 05:20, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

References

1. https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/474143254_201712_990_2019022316123190.pdf
2. Mac Donald, Heather (2 June 2020). "The Myth of Systemic Police Racism". The Wall Street Journal. Retrieved 19 June 2020.

Stonkaments, I see that no one has commented yet, so I'll jump in. I think statistics would be helpful, perhaps statistics could be taken from the perspective of police excessive force statistics, particularly where there was no crime or a very minor crime (i.e., if they were carrying a gun, a threat to police, etc. that might not be considered excessive force). There looks to be some sources from the query that I added, like one by the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

The section could be called something like "Police use of excessive force". What do you think?–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:07, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

The issue is that unless those sources mention BLM specifically, using them to implicitly justify or critique it would be WP:OR / WP:SYNTH. We cannot imply a conclusion that is not stated by the sources, and obviously putting it here would be making an argument about BLM - to present such an argument, we need to have sources that mention BLM specifically. --Aquillion (talk) 07:29, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

White Lives Matter

I propose that section be split into a separate page called "White Lives Matter", to be focused separately on hate group. The content of the current page seems off-topic and these sections are large enough to make their own page. --ZmeytheDragon16 (talk) 13:02, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Does it need to be split, or could a new, fuller article called White Lives Matter be created, such as the way All Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter are handled in the Black Lives Matter#Counter-slogans and movements section (i.e., keep the section, add a {{main}} template?–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:21, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

ZmeytheDragon16, White Lives Matter isn't really a significant topic. It was/is a small counter-response to Black Lives Matter. There aren't really enough significant events on it that would make a separate article appropriate. The current section of it here is 3 lines long. You can prove me wrong by expanding it here and then you'll have a better case for a split imo. Right now, I suspect it would just be a pointless stub. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Good point. Another option is to expand the Nationalist Front (United States) that discusses the White Lives Matter rally and send the redirect to that page.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:50, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

CaroleHenson, I think putting the content and redirect to Nationalist Front seems like the best option right now. I'm not convinced there's enough for a stand-alone article. Best, Eddie891 _Work 12:29, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Eddie891, Okay. I will remove the split template on the article page, copy the content for the White Lives Matter section to a new section in the Nationalist Front (United States) page, and change the redirect to the new section in the Nationalist Front article.

ZmeytheDragon16, I will look for a bit more info about the White Lives Matter movement to add to the National Front article, but would appreciate any additions you would like to make when you foresaw having a separate article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Steps  Done, including starting the Nationalist Front (United States)#White Lives Matter section and adding some content.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:03, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Black people vs African-American in the context of this being an international / global movement

Hi fellow editors. The article refers in a number of places — including in the infobox and articles such as this one — to BLM being internaional / global. That being the case, should the term "African-American" not be replaced by a term applicable to black people in other regions, such as Western Europe, where they experience similar police brutality? Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 08:26, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I think that would be a very good idea. This movement is not just about American people. Laurier (talk) 19:32, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

New introductory paragraph

I have drafted a new introductory paragraph for the BLM article. Please note that my draft defines BLM as a "social movement" and that it refers to BLM organizations as "social movement organizations".

Black Lives Matter (BLM) is a social movement. The primary goal of the movement is to stop unjust killings by police officers. The members of the BLM movement publicly protest against alleged acts of police brutality on Afro-American people and they sometimes block public roadways as a means of drawing attention to their protests. The members of the movement have established several social movement organizations, including Black Lives Matter Sacramento, Black Lives Matter Vancouver Wa, Black Lives Matter Global Network, Inc. and many others.

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 17:00, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

References

1. Friedersdorf, Conor.  "Distinguishing Between Antifa, ...." The Atlantic. August 31, 2017. Retrieved June 20, 2020.
2. opencorporates. "Black Lives Matter Sacramento". Retrieved June 20, 2020.
3. opencorporates. "Black Lives Matter Vancouver Wa". Retrieved June 20, 2020.
4. opencorporates. "Black Lives Matter Global Network, Inc." Retrieved June 20, 2020.

Why is this preferable over the current opening paragraph? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:11, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Snoogans... The current introductory paragraph reads, in part, An organization known simply as "Black Lives Matter" exists as a decentralized network with over 30 chapters worldwide..."

The blacklivesmatter.com website includes a page that lists 16 chapters, not 30 chapters. The "Fund the Movement" page of the website states that "Your contribution will benefit Black Lives Matter Global Network". So it appears to me that the owner of the website is not named "simply" Black Lives Matter.

The "About" page of the website reads, "#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013". The coining of a hashtag does not establish a corporation named simply "Black Lives Matter" or anything else.

The "About" page also makes reference to "Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc". Maybe there is a Texas or Alaska or Oregon corporation with that name, or maybe the reference to "Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc" is a bungled effort to state the name of the Delaware corporation named "Black Lives Matter Global Network, Inc." or the Delaware corporation named "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc."

The errors and ambiguities in the BLM website should not be imported into Misplaced Pages. It is very important to find out what exists and what is just an error. I hope that my draft introductory paragraph does not include any errors or ambiguities.

It might be the case that Black Lives Matters Global Network, Inc. has published a fictitious business name statement to inform the public that it is conducting its business under the fictitious name "Black Lives Matter". If such a statement has been published, that statement should be referenced in the article so that the reader understands that the corporation is conducting its activities under a name that is not its legal name (as stated in the corporation's articles of incorporation).

Let's work together to remove the mistakes and confusion from the BLM article.

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 18:23, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I added information about the BLM organizations to the note about the organization's name here, based upon information at the BLM website. I am still a bit confused about the difference between Black Lives Matter Foundation, Black Lives Matter Global Network, and Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation (all of which may more legally correctly also include "Inc.") - but I just put in the info that is on the website. If someone can help straighten this out, it might be better to have this in the body of the article - perhaps with its own section within the Black Lives Matter#Structure and organization section.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:14, 21 June 2020 (UTC) I would be happy to write that section if someone can help me sort out the organization's names and purposes.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:17, 21 June 2020 (UTC) Updated diff.–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:02, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Influence Watch information about BLMGNF is a bit helpful, makes it seem as if Black Lives Matter Global Network is shorthand for BLMGNF, but also creates some confusion for me about Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:07, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

"dedicated to non-violence"

Cite the source Dudemanyeah (talk) 21:52, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Dudemanyeah, Based upon the cited source, I changed "dedicated" to "favoring". There may be a better word, but it's at least more in synch with the source now.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:23, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 June 2020

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BLM founder Patrisse Cullors said they (the other co-founders) are Marxist trained and supportive of the communist movement in the United States in interview, there by causing the alt right to seize upon and try to discredit and delegitimize the BLM’s goals.

Source

Patrisse Cullors on video interview 2015 stated the following: “ Myself and Alicia in particular are trained organizers. We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories.” 108.45.159.112 (talk) 18:55, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I did a query on this and I am not finding reliable sources for this. It is not mentioned on her personal website or the Black Lives Matter website.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:20, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2020

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Black Lives Matter have frequently and publicly called for violence recently. To suggest they are nonviolent is a flat lie and clear bias 71.215.128.35 (talk) 14:32, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. — Tartan357   14:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Possible section on Nascar

Possible section on Bubba Wallace incident. It will provide better context to the race relations tensions. It has also been one of the victories of BLM to remove the racist confederate flag from nascar.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ice fly editor (talk • contribs)

References

1. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/bubba-wallace-confederate-flag-trnd/index.html

Ice fly editor, Tallying all the outcomes of the Black Lives Matter movement, like the removal of the Confederate flag from Nascar could add a lot of volume to the article. It could be interesting to have an article about Changes as a result of the Black Lives Matter movement or a similarly worded article title, and include items such as:

• Legislative and procedural changes in police policies
• Removal of monuments of racists and racist monuments, like Confederate soldiers, slave auction, etc. statues
• Removal of Confederate flags
• Change in marketing and branding of products, like Uncle Bens and Aunt Jemima
• Etc.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Talk:Black Lives Matter movement in popular culture

Article tags have been added to Black Lives Matter movement in popular culture. If you have some time and can weigh in on the comments on Talk:Black Lives Matter movement in popular culture, that would be helpful.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:56, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 June 2020

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BLM can no longer be defined as a "non-violent" civil disobedience protest. Please change/remove "non-violent" from the definition. The leaders themselves do not align with this definition. 2603:9004:800:577C:2C9D:9050:8F2:B4F6 (talk) 12:45, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 12:57, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Davis Polk and Holland & Knight

These prominent law firs are named after defenders of racial segregation, yet nothing is mentioned on their Misplaced Pages pages. Every time I try and add references information on this, another editor removes the information. Clearly, the removal of such information is against Misplaced Pages rules? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.207.74.159 (talk) 09:57, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

I am not understanding how this relates to this specific article about the Black Lives Movement. Are you talking about edits made to other articles (in which case, the posting should be made there).

Removing content is in accordance with Misplaced Pages guidelines if: it is irrelevant; discusses a fringe theory, minor point, or is otherwise WP:UNDUE; uncited by a reliable source; or any other guidelines that define appropriate content.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:29, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Discussion of violence

There have been a number of attempts to address violence conducted during the times of Black Lives Matter protests and they have been rejected, generally because the requests have been inappropriate or uncited.

I think it would be good to address it. At the top of the article, it says BLM is "an organized movement advocating for non-violent civil disobedience". I think the article should also state that the movement is conducted at a series of local levels, and attended by a wide body of individuals and sometimes violence become part of the protests: sometimes by police, sometimes by protesting attendees or others / opportunists. Basically, the protests have been mostly non-violent, but there have been incidents of violence, burnings, lootings - with differentiation between protestors and opportunists. I am happy to work on this, perhaps making a section for violence at BLM protests. There are tons of sources here.

The Police use of excessive force section needs a bit of work as well. Some of the information is misleading.

Any thoughts on this?–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Criticism Section Written as a Dialectic

The Criticism section is written as a dialectic. It is written in a point counter-point style which is not fitting for a section titled "Criticism" For instance, the following is not a Criticism of BLM but actually a criticism of the police "A North Carolina police chief retired after calling BLM a terrorist group. A police officer in Oregon was removed from street duty following a social media post in which he said he would have to "babysit these fools", in reference to a planned BLM event." Similarly, the following is also not a criticism of BLM and is not appropriate under the criticism section "Washington Post columnist Jonathan Capehart wrote that Giuliani's comments reinforced his sense that the former mayor lives in a "racial world of make-believe"." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.8.103 (talk • contribs) 08:03, 29 June 2020 (UTC) (Please sign your comment with 4 tildes.)

Suggest, these statements be moved or removed. Possibly consider adding another section along the lines of "Controversy Among Public Figures" where such statements can be placed if they do indeed add to the quality of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.8.103 (talk • contribs) 22:01, 29 June 2020 (UTC) (Please sign your comment with 4 tildes.)

• This is one of the many reasons criticism sections aren't a great way to organize information, per WP:CSECTION. We should consider rearranging / retitling it. --Aquillion (talk) 07:24, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Commit/Convict/Arrested for

2019 numbers on use of force by the police are not accurate

In the subsection 'Police use of excessive force', the numbers for 2019 are not accurate. Currently, it says: "In 2019, police officers shot and killed 1,001 people. About half of those killed were white, and one quarter were black."

It cites two sources, statista.com, and WP . However, following the link provided, statista gives different numbers for 2019: 1004 were killed, of whom 370 (37%) were white, and 235 (23%) were black. According to WP, the numbers for 2019 are as follows: 999 killings, of whom 403 were white (40%), 250 were black (25%). So I think that it would be better to say: "In 2019, police officers shot and killed about 1,000 people. About 40% of those killed were white, and one quarter were black."

Also, the following WP quote is, while technically true, less informative than it could be. It currently says that "The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans." The rate for white people is 13/1m and for black people 31/1m. That is nearly three times higher. To make an analogy: If I consider buying a car, and model A has a price tag of $25k, model B of 95k, then yes, model B is 'more than twice as expensive' than model A. It is also 'more than three times as expensive' than model A. However, the most informative thing to say would be to say that it is 'almost more than four times as expensive' than model A. So I think it would be better to say that: "The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is nearly three times as high as the rate for white Americans." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16b8:3128:300:39c1:36df:7a52:2b5d (talk • contribs) 21:02, 29 June 2020 (UTC) (Please sign your comment with 4 tildes.)

You're failing to account for the killings where race was unknown. Per the Washington Post database, out of 856 fatal shootings in 2019 where the victim's race was known, 403 (47%) were white and 250 (29%) were black.

And 31 / 13 = 2.38. That is not "nearly three times as high".

It seems like the Washington Post database is subject to frequent revisions, so the 1,001 figure may not remain accurate and I support changing it to "about 1,000 people." But I believe the percentages for white and black Americans should remain unchanged. Stonkaments (talk) 19:48, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

My bad on the 13vs31! As to the "About half of those killed were white, and one quarter were black.": From the wiki article, it is not clear that this excludes the unknown category. Then it should at least say something like "of those cases in which ethnicity/race was known, ...". Also, it rounds up 3% for the proportion of whites, 47% to half, and down 4% for the proportion of blacks, 29% to a quarter. This increases a difference of 18% (47-29), factor 1.6 (47/29), to a perceived difference of about 25%, factor 2.0 (50/25). I'd rather give the actual percentages here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16b8:3128:300:39c1:36df:7a52:2b5d (talk • contribs) 23:13, 29 June 2020 (UTC) (Please sign your comment with 4 tildes.)

Do we add in western opinion pieces that are against BLM founder's marxist learnings in the "Criticism" section?

I read recently that BLM founders were well versed in understanding marxism. Despite it's statistically the older white gen guys, that are most likely to see this socialism as evil and Breitbart defintely had a field day attacking it. I have also seen quite a few opinion pieces in top leading newspapers that similarly criticises the founder's ideology. Generally attacking it by saying that Marxism stands in complete opposition to their Judeo-Christian foundation of America. And that it's atheist philosophy that attacks the "american way". It's obvious the writers are fundamental christians and they see the west as "supposed" to be christian and so they see marxism as a mortal enemy to its religion. Should we add this in to the "criticism of BLM" section or not? Some example sources - https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/ https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/29/editorial-black-lives-matter-is-rooted-in-a-soulle/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/12/make-no-mistake-blm-radical-neo-marxist-political-movement/ P.S not that familiar in creating a new chapter in talk so sincere apologies if I actually did it improperly. MangoTareeface9 (talk) 12:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

• Op-eds in low-quality sources, far from "top leading newspapers." We should leave this out. We already have more significant critiques in the article. Neutrality 20:47, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

NY Post is in the top 10 newspapers in the United States by average weekday paid circulation in 2019, in fourth place right below NY Times. Therefore it seems to fit the very definition of one of the "top leading newspapers". Lantrix //Talk//Contrib// 09:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

uhm

What is a big ol' picture of Osama bin Laden doing on this page? Possible vandalism? 71.34.119.126 (talk) 04:45, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Pogroms and Cultural Marxism

Why are the Pogroms and Cultural Marxism of BLM not mentioned in the article? --105.12.2.182 (talk) 07:25, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Probably because it's a figment of fevered right-wing imagination. Or did you have actual reliable sources attesting to this? --Calton | Talk 09:43, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Passing comment: Progrom seems a bit strong but, at a quick look, cultural marxism might have due weight (see WP:DUE and ). I'm not motivated to dig further, but some digging might be useful. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:49, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Why is Marxist not even mentioned in the article?

This organisation is described by many as Marxist. This is a common description by many, yet not even mentioned in the article. How come this is so? Is this a possible double standard on Misplaced Pages? Rudy Giuliani has among others mentioned that BLM is a Marxist organisation and there are several sources on the net that also mentionens it. -Primal Benefactor (talk) 13:55, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

• https://nypost.com/2020/07/01/rudy-giuliani-blm-a-marxist-group-planning-to-destroy-police/
• https://nypost.com/2020/07/01/the-agenda-of-black-lives-matter-is-far-different-from-the-slogan/
• https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rudy-giuliani-calls-black-lives-matter-a-marxist-organization-2020-07-01
• https://www.quora.com/Is-Black-Lives-Matter-a-Marxist-influenced-group
• https://disrn.com/news/video-surfaces-of-black-lives-matter-founder-saying-were-trained-marxists
• https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/29/editorial-black-lives-matter-is-rooted-in-a-soulle/
• https://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/rita-panahi/blm-are-radical-neomarxists/news-story/8ed22f8b57042417bf23745dba70ad7c
• https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/25/patrisse-cullors-black-lives-matter-co-founder-fea/
• https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/black-lives-matter-is-marxist-its-claimed-in-lisburn-council-row-39313482.html

Also, starting 1.00 minutes into the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgEUbSzOTZ8 , BLM co-founder Patrisse Cullors says, "We actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia in particular, we're trained organizers. We are trained Marxists. We are super versed on ideological theories." Just mentioning this for the discussion -- I haven't added anything on it to the article. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 15:30, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

I think it's worth noting that most of the sources you've listed here aren't exactly reliable. While the New York Post has, what I believe is, limited reliability, the remainder of your sources lack balance and/or are explicitly biased in portraying a pro-Trump/pro-Republical/pro-xyz (whatever you want to call it; cascading to anti-BLM) slant. Several of the sources you've listed actually all come down to one specific thing, which is Trump's Attorney calling BLM marxist, which most certainty isn't a reliable source for Misplaced Pages's standards (and for political topics, like BLM). Quora especially, is most definitely not a reliable source. On top of this, several of your sources are opinion posts/columns, not actual journalism. I think it's also worth mentioning that just because two founders of an organisation hold certain political views, that doesn't mean the entire organisation has the sole purpose of exercising those ideological ends. The YouTube sources as well... all I can say is that there's a lot of bias and manipulation involved there, especially around the way that questions are phrased - the description explicitly says that the host is anti-BLM (hence, questioning the core of the show; is it for finding truth, or for finding weapons against BLM): "I condemn Black Lives Matter because they are a Marxist movement. Marxism is anti-Christ. They substitute sin with power." If you can find a number of neutral academic sources that support your claim though (BLM has been the subject of a number of reliable and respected academic sources, so this shouldn't be too hard), then I'd suggest you go forth and repropose this. Otherwise, I don't find it appropriate that such a substantial and slanted claim should be included. ItsPugle (talk) 10:50, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Just read the article. It's a giant article and Marxist isn't mentioned a single time, when so much connections exists. This to me is clearly proof that this wikipedia article is used as a political "weapon" (as you call it) by the editors of the article. Does the same standard apply to right-wing articles? Look at the censoring online on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook and all other larger Social media sites. Right-wing people are being persecuted and purged from all these sites. Are they being persecuted and purged on this article as well? -85.225.175.224 (talk) 22:35, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, History of the United States is even bigger and "Marxist" isn't mentioned in there either. What's your point? Please look up, where a point about "reliable sources" is made. I don't know what you mean with "censoring online on YouTube" etc, or what it has to do with this article. If you are indeed feeling persecuted, I am sorry. Drmies (talk) 23:45, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

BLM also has, or had until very recently, one of its stated aims on its website at the overthrow of capitalism. Which is a Marxist view. Ben Finn (talk) 20:49, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Also BLM’s Marxism is the subject of this article in the UK’s Telegraph newspaper, certainly reliable as journalistic sources go. Might be more of an op-ed (behind paywall) but confirms that BLM is widely regarded as Marxist. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/12/make-no-mistake-blm-radical-neo-marxist-political-movement/ Ben Finn (talk) 20:55, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

I mean, the Telegraph has a strong right-wing bias and inconsistent factuality of reporting... Plus, it's an op-ed, so it's no more valid than me saying that the sky is orange. ItsPugle (talk) 02:44, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

The Huffington Post has has an exactly opposite strong left-wing bias and is rated by that same fact check site as "...Mixed for factual reporting due to failed fact checks and the promotion of pseudoscience"; yet there are nine separate references in this article linked to the Huff Post. Misplaced Pages is about a neutral point of view being representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. Not using references that are right wing while using references that are left wing seems biased and not neutral. Reliability of the sources can allow us to use mainstream publications where we don't yet have any independent and published academic sources. Even when these publications are biased (as you mentioned op-ed), then sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. If we exclude a right bias, but have an equally op-ed based left bias used in references, then the article no longer stays neutral. Although a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context. In fact the Huff Post was launched on May 9, 2005 as a commentary outlet, blog, and an alternative to news aggregators. The Daily Telegraph has been around since 1855 and according to our own article has been described as a newspaper of record!! I would consider it a valid reference. Lantrix //Talk//Contrib// 09:04, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources says:

• Daily Telegraph: There is consensus that The Daily Telegraph (also known as The Telegraph) is generally reliable. Some editors believe that The Daily Telegraph is biased or opinionated for politics.
• Huffington post: There is no consensus on the reliability of HuffPost. As HuffPost is a newer publication, some editors prefer to use reliable sources with more established reputations. Some editors believe the site reports with a political slant, which makes it biased or opinionated. HuffPost's syndicated content should be evaluated by the reliability of its original publisher. See also: HuffPost contributors.

Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 12:10, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

@Lantrix: we don't use mediabiasfactcheck, it's not a reliable source. Our article says HuffPost is mostly described as liberal leaning, which is not strong left-wing. This article says "The overall Black Lives Matter movement is a decentralized network of activists with no formal hierarchy". To suggest that all those or even a large minority of those supporting this huge international movement are Marxists is, well, silly. Doug Weller talk 12:52, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

As for the New York Post, the issue isn't the newspaper, it's the fact that it is an opinion piece by two employees of the conservative The Heritage Foundation. Basically it's the view of the foundation - which by the way is also into climate change denial. Of course they would say that about BLM. Doug Weller talk 13:43, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

This seems a bit far from WP:IRS to me. RS, as I read it, generally says to look at the reliability of newspapers, magazines and similar sources at the publisher level rather than at the authorship level.

Thanks @Doug Weller: I would agree it's unreliable. I'm only using it to compare the opposite sides of the spectrum in reference to @ItsPugle: using it to say the Daily Telegraph was too right wing and un-reliable. I can use the same argument for other references to be too left wing. Agreed as an op-ed it's the view of the foundation too. Lantrix //Talk//Contrib// 12:00, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I wasn't making any judgements about any other sources used when I called out the biases of The Daily Telegraph. I'm not a heavy contributor, just a passing editor with little knowledge about the overall article's quality. Regardless, that really shouldn't be a concern - if there are unreliable sources that you've already called out (you've gone to the effort of counting the references of Huffington Post, so....), then I'd implore you to find replacements and make those changes. ItsPugle (talk) 12:35, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources says:

• New York Post: There is no consensus regarding the reliability of the New York Post. The New York Post is a tabloid newspaper with high circulation, and most editors prefer more reliable sources when available.

I'm not sure that your assertion that the article authors must necessarily have been expressing the POV of their employer when writing for an outside publication is valid. As you say, though, the article is an opinion piece. RS does say, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact. "

Time Magazine. Here’s a “reliable source”: Judgesurreal777 (talk) 23:12, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Two things: Time does not say that Patrisse Cullors is a Marxist. It said "Cullors weaves her intellectual influences into this narrative, from black feminist writers like Audre Lorde and bell hooks, to Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin and Mao Zedong. Reading those social philosophers “provided a new understanding around what our economies could look like,” she says. Reading Lorde and hooks “helped me understand my identity.” That doesn't make her a Marxist. Second, this should be dealt with very carefully since this article is about both the movement and the organization (i.e., we wouldn't want to give the impression that protestors or chapter members are Marxist, because that is not a valid deduction).–CaroleHenson (talk) 07:38, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

So some of her intellectual influences that provide her with an understanding around what our economies could look like are Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin and Mao Zedong? She's not a Marxist then, she's someone who wants the US economy to look like Communism. Time is generally reliable as a Misplaced Pages concensus, and the reporter of that article was a general assignment reporter at Time, so not an op-ed. Lantrix //Talk//Contrib// 12:12, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

If the fact that someone reads about someone and finds something of value does not make them committed to that perspective. If it did, I would be Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, etc.

Is there evidence from a reliable source that Cullor actually considers herself a Marxist (which would impact her article)? Since we are talking about Black Lives Matter and not a biography of Cullor, is there any evidence from a reliable source that Marxism is used in creating positions, policy, etc. within this organization?–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:23, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2020

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Can you check to see if Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation is the actual Non-Profit charity? I checked the IRS web site and there is no filing for this organization. I did find ActBlue Charities. 2601:80:4202:B7B4:ADDC:73A3:5A88:E488 (talk) 15:06, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 15:57, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Comment I think what the contributed was requesting was an edit to clarify the conditions of BLM's registration as a charity. While the "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation" is not registered in the United States as a charity (per the IRS' Charity Register), the Black Lives Matter Foundation is. The former is likely an operating name of the latter. i.e. no change needed. ItsPugle (talk) 14:09, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Misleading edit on Mayor of Olympia

Misleading is being kind. She later said "I know that what happened to me was not domestic terrorism.” She apologised and said “Once I stepped back and calmed down, I realized that those words were an overreaction to what I’d seen in the video,” Selby says seeing FOX News “twist her words” gave her “insight into the divisions” happening across the country. She did condemn property damaged. And the vandalism was graffiti. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 18:01, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

It looks like the content about Olympia and Selby was deleted in this version.–CaroleHenson (talk) 07:49, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of sources

This is a pretty blatant misrepresentation of sources. For example, the first source says:

"The data is unequivocal. Police killings are a race problem: African-Americans are being killed disproportionately and by a wide margin. And police bias may be responsible."

But that is being used to insert text into the article which claims: "Sendhil Mullainathan has argued that the data does not show police racial bias is a major factor in accounting for killings of African Americans"

Mullainathan does say that there may be other factors at work, but the text that is being added is not reflective of that. Volunteer Marek 20:07, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

This does not qualify as RS. This is a non-peer reviewed working paper (though Fryer might have a published version of it). This again doesn't support the text that is being inserted. Volunteer Marek 20:12, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

That is one cherry-picked quote that doesn't reflect the overall tone of the article. Note the following two sentences: "But this data does not prove that biased police officers are more likely to shoot blacks in any given encounter. Instead, there is another possibility: It is simply that — for reasons that may well include police bias — African-Americans have a very large number of encounters with police officers."

I believe the article's main conclusion is: "In fact, the deeper you look, the more it appears that the race problem revealed by the statistics reflects a larger problem: the structure of our society, our laws and policies." So the author is arguing it's a systemic issue, and the data doesn't support claims of police racial bias in a given encounter. Stonkaments (talk) 20:18, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Here is the published version of Fryer's paper. Stonkaments (talk) 20:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

"when contextual factors are taken into account"...what does that mean? Drmies (talk) 22:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

The Injury Prevention study, which you claim doesn't support the text being inserted, says: "Both estimated hospital-admitted and fatal injury ratios per 10,000 stops/arrests did not differ significantly between racial/ethnic groups." Stonkaments (talk) 20:24, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

"Data does not prove" is not the same as "data disproves" which is what you're pretending the source says. The author clearly says it could indeed be bias. "In a given encounter" is a way to get around the point. It being a systemic issue does not exclude the possibility that it's also an individual issue.

You're also misrepresenting Fryer. His conclusion is that "We argue that the patterns in the data are consistent with a model in which police officers are utility maximizers, a fraction of which have a preference for discrimination, who incur relatively high expected costs of officer-involved shootings.". Volunteer Marek 20:40, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not pretending the source says anything; please stop with the personal attacks. My edit clearly stated "Economist Sendhil Mullainathan has argued that the data does not show police racial bias is a major factor in accounting for killings of African Americans." Stonkaments (talk) 20:53, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Yet you omit the "police bias may be responsible" part. Volunteer Marek 20:55, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

And here is another problem. This, aside from being your fourth revert today, uses a false edit summary. The text is NOT "original research/biased language". It's straight from the source which says, quote: "In contrast to previous work that relied on the FBI’s Supplemental Homicide Reports that were constructed from self-reported cases of police-involved homicide, this data set is less likely to be biased by police reporting practices." Hence, the text is directly based on the source and is important because it accounts for differences with other studies. Volunteer Marek 21:10, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

"less likely to be biased" is not the same as claiming the data is "better" or that the police-reported data is necessarily biased. Stonkaments (talk) 21:18, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

1) The fact that police reported data is biased is right in the source 2) So restore it replacing "better" with "less biased". Volunteer Marek 21:27, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

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