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Sathya Sai Baba

I don't think Sathya Sai Baba should be present in this article, at least without some solid qualification. It is true that his cult uses varied religious imagery, but that is a far cry from actually understanding the many and significant ways in which the major Indian Religions can not very well be reconciled.

Besides, the way the entry is worded is very ambiguous. It forgets to mention the strong suspicions that surround the person of Sathya Sai Baba, (as seen on his own article) and suggests that he is somehow recognized and accepted by all the major religions mentioned in the article. That is arguable at best. Islam, at the very least, is known for having little interest in mixing with other religions. If they made an exception for Sathya Sai Baba then this is major news and would create quite a comotion. I believe that they did not, however, and Sai Baba and his followers are just proclaiming what they want to believe in regardless of fact or permission.

I would personally prefer Sai Baba to be removed entirely from the article, but a simple rewording would probably suffice.

Best,

Luis.

I re-worded it but I think it is better to mention also some other Indian new religious movement to keep it balanced. By the way, the original Sai Baba did have both Muslim and Hindu followers and the Muslims allowed mixing in the case of Shirdi Sai Baba. Amazingly the statement of Sathya Sai Baba and his followers is not entirely untrue. Sathya Sai Baba does have some Muslim followers but they are few and mostly Shia Muslims or followers from small Muslim sects. Andries 19:21, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Tribal religions

Shouldn't there be some mention of India's tribal religions here? I would add the details myself, but I was here LOOKING for those details ;D

Good idea but I hardly know anything about India tribal religion. Andries 19:02, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Just thought I'd comment: unfortunately or fortunately, whatever, Christianity, Hinduism and Islam have all vied for the membership of tribals. Islamic conquerors of long ago converted them, Christian missionaries of today are very active all over the country trying to convert them, and Hindus run around telling them that their beliefs are really just a subset of Hinduism. There is a tribal commission in India today in charge of trying to maintain their autonomy from foreign (i.e. non-tribal) religions. Maybe later I'll try to work on it --LordSuryaofShropshire 22:58, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

I added the section Tribal religions in India and many more religions which were missing. some help will be appreciated to explain more about those religions. I am sure there are many more religions in India which we are missing.

Bhagwan Sri Sathya Sai Baba

Its always interesting to note that Sri Sathya Sai Baba becomes a point of discussion wherever the name appears!!!

Probably, Luis, may not be aware of the grassroot service work undertaken by the followers/devotees/fans of Bhagwan Sri Sathya Sai Baba which is not normally reported in the mainstream media as the volunteers would not like to be 'limelighted'. Luis, you should certainly make a visit to Puttaparthy and you will soon understand from where the "suspicion" surrounding SSSB arises from. Also, your query on Muslims' belief in SSSB too will be answered partially. Also, have patience and keep watching/observing closely SSSB and the developments at Puttaparthy in the next six years. Your query will be completely answered.

Please check the following link which is a recent story that is published in one of the leading newspapers of India on April 25, 2005.

http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=126199

There was always people around the world who condemns and criticises those who shared their Love and Affection with others. In a world where Jesus Christ was crucified what else can one expect? The people who throw dirt on others do so because the ego in them rebels against the slow and steady growth of Love in them.

Check this too...its an article that came on another leading daily in India on May 22, 2005.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/007200505221568.htm

Two other media reports that came in the end of May 2005.

http://www.canindianews.com/news/News/NewsArticle.asp?sdkjshdhsdkjs=sdhsjdhsdlsdjlksjdl;sd&NewsID=-643194774&sdhskjdhskjd=sdhsjkdhsjkdh

http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEA20050530025143&Page=A&Title=Southern+News+-+Andhra+Pradesh&Topic=0

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1391312,00410010.htm

A report that came in the second week of June 2005

http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEK20050613014508

Number of Sikhs

the number of sikhs given here (35 million) does not match the numbers in the sikhism article at Sikhism#Sikhs around the world (23 million). Both figures cannot be correct. Tomer 22:20, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

The number of Sikhs in India won't exceed more then 25 million for sure. - India1989

attack and Invitation.

Many Hindus and Jains who do not belive in Idol worships invited Muslims to attack and distroy the Hindu, Buddha and Jain Temples. Muhammad Gazanavi was invited to distroy Somnath Temple. Many encloypedias say that Jains were more interested to distroy Hindu and Jain Temples. Will any reader of this discussion give some fact on this subject?

vkvora 15:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Arrangements

Isn't it good to arrange religions according to the alphabetical order. This is not an article deals with Chronology or time line of one particular group's history and culture. It was dealing with many diverse systems independent to each other. So as usual it is good to arrange alphabetically. - Paul 18:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Ravidasi not included

While looking up more on the topic in wikipedia I came across, Ravidasi. Should this be included on the page? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kedar Borhade (talk • contribs) 22:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

Proposal for structural reorganisation

Here is a proposal for structural reorganisation of the article. The article may be organised under the following sections:

• History
• Major religions
• Pilgrimages
• Religious holidays
• Religious thinkers
• Problems

At present, the article just describes the major religions in India. However, the scope of the article is far greater. A summarisation of the present article will fit in the section "Major religions" of the proposed structure. Please comment. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 09:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Good Idea. Describing the religions should not be the actual purpose of this article. Instead how & in what forms people follow religions in India, their problems, their social issues etc should be the focus.

Also the following topics should be included:

• Religion & the media.
• Religion & vote bank politics.
• Secular traditions & religious (in)tolerance.

Also demographics section should be expanded to include statistics of various sects, if possible. --Shahab 18:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Shahab 18:23, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Information needed to be added

• Notable places of worship (should include plgrimage sites).
• Religious leaders.
• Economic Social disparity (if exists) between religious communities.
• Creation of Pakistan, Communal riots, Secular ethos of India.

This article needs to move away from being Religions in India to become Religion in India in the sense that it needs to focus more on religion from the Life in India angle. Cheers.--Shahab 06:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely agree with Shahab. The title is Religion in India, not Religions in India! The section on pilgrimages would include notable places of worships; communal riots, socio-economic disparities may come under something in line of "problems". Creation of Pakistan would be covered in History. Please help make this article at least a GA (hopefully a FA!). It's nice to see many people visiting the article and editing. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 06:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Some more points that the article should address:

• How does the Indian constitution and civil/criminal law treat religion ?
• How does Indian educational system treat religion ?
• What are Indian populations attitude towards religion ? For this see for example, the following Pew Global Attitudes Project reports
  • Report 1 (Search for India on the page)
  • Report 2 (see page 49 and 73 of the PDF file; page 39 and 63 of report ... search does not work on document)

Good to see this article get some (non-trollish) attention ! Abecedare 06:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Please suggest some sections where these things can be added. While the treatment of religion by law can be put in a straight-forward way, am a bit hesitant about the education. What do you exactly want to state? That secular attitude is sometimes violated in education, with the government in power sometimes trying to introduce their point of views? News reports of such incidents should be available. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 09:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I was thinking of even more basic information that may be obvious to Indians but not to wikipedia's larger audience. For example:

• Law: I think we should start by mentioning that India's constitution declares it a secular country with no state-religion; grants right to practice any religion; has a uniform criminal code though the civil code (i.e. laws governing marriage, divorce etc) vary. Only once we have laid this background of the rule, can we sensibly talk about the controversies and exceptions (Shah Bano, Uniform Civil Code, religion in politics etc)
• Education: Again we should first try to establish the background first, as to who sets the syllabus (non-religious organizations like NCERT etc ) and provide statistics, if available, about how many educational institutions are run by different sectarian organizations, and how many students get formal "religious" education (my guess is that this percentage would be minuscule). Only then, should we talk about how the system does not always work as it is ostensibly supposed to.

I agree with DaGizza's comment below that we need to think about the sections needed in this article. I'll be happy to provide more input but have to rush off now ... will be back later ! Abecedare 13:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi! I went ahead and added a section "Constitution and law" in the very beginning. Please see. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 14:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice job, Dwaipayan! I'll try to look up more references for education and other sections of the article and add info. in the next day or two. Cheers. Abecedare 14:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Percentages

The percentages in this article don't agree with each other. See these examples (found in this version):

• From the lead: Christianity by 2.4%
• From the table: Christians, 24,080,016, 2.34%
• From the pie graph: Christianity — 2.3%
• From the text: Christianity is the third largest religion of India making up 2–2.9% of the population

Another example:

• From the lead: Islam is practiced by 13.4% of all Indians
• From the table: Muslims, 144,005,446, 14%
• From the pie graph: Islam — 13.1%
• From the text: 160 million Muslims in India (the second largest population in the world, after Indonesia), which is 16.4% of the population

Shouldn't these percentages be uniform throughout the article? Happy editing, 11:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and IMO it should follow 2001 census data. The pie chart should be made according to that data. Latest estimations may be mentioned, but census data should be adhered to.--Dwaipayan (talk) 12:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The demographics table has been updated per the census results (source — one needs to download the zipped spreadsheet to see the data). The data elsewhere in the article has also been made uniform. (please check if I have omitted something leading to discrepancies). The pie chart (which did not corroborate with the data perfectly) has been removed. Someone please help to create a pie chart based on the demographics table. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 13:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

"Major religions"

What exactly is the purpose of this section. It is a mixture of history, geographic distribution and general info. I believe the structure of the article needs to be discussed before any changes are made to the content. We don't want the sections to overlap in what they say. Each section needs to flow with the one preceding it and the one following it. Personally, I believe we should remove this section and perhaps create a geographic distribution section. Gizza 12:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

"Major religions" is supposedly a summary of Major religions in India. You are correct in pointing out the section has rather become a mixture of history, geographic distribution and general info. The primary goal was to give general information. It seems that general information (what are Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism etc) and geographic distribution should be covered here. Historical informations should not be in this section (that's dealt with/will be dealt with in "History"). Please comment.

However, I do not believe in one concern raised by you. The content of the article should also be enhanced besides deciding a stable structure. The article being this week's INCOTW has begun to attract some visits, and good edits. Both structure and content are important. For example, under "Pilgrimages", a thorough description of Buddhist pilgrimages were added. Hopefully pilgrimages of other religions will also be added soon. Then (or simultaneously) we can summarise the section, and create daughter articles as necessary. let the article enjoy whatever attention it is having, and the content increase; stabilisation of structure (which, I repeat, is equally important) can be achieved as the content is enhanced. Comments are welcome. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 13:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. We can rearrange the information after it is added. I said it because on the other religion related article I have worked on (mainly Hinduism), many editors look at each section independently and lose track of the article as a whole. This leads to the article to become 100kb+ and huge amounts of information are repeated two or three times unnecessarily throughout the page. I suppose since this article is not even 30kb yet, it would be alright to expand content and structure it accordingly later on. Gizza 22:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

"Major Thinkers" section

The title is a little strange to me - it sounds almost like 'movers and shakers'. Maybe 'Religious reformers'? Does there even need to be a section about specific religious reformers? If so, then it seems like it should be in the History section. Also the word spiritualist (look it up) has a very different meaning than what must be intended here. ॐ Priyanath talk 01:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Religious reformers or religious figures definitely sounds better. I also agree with your second statement that it tends to have similar information to the history section, because the major thinkers impacted on the religious history of India. "Religion and politics" is also a strange name. Maybe that should change to "religous conflict." We could then move the last paragraph of the history section into there as well. Gizza 04:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

As said by DaGizza Religious Figures is probably the best name. Not all of the people mentioned are reformers, for example the Sufi saints did not create new systems, the same is true for the Christian, Buddhist figures. Contemporary religious leaders should also be included in this section. Religious conflict won't probably be quite accurate because that section was aimed at describing the relationship between politics and religion as existing in India (vote bank, hindutva philosophy etc) and not only conflicts. Conflicts should be in differnt section titled Problems or something like that. The idea of the title was taken from Religion in the United Kingdom. Cheers.--Shahab 07:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you think this section should contain a sentence or two about contemporary religious figures? Something along the lines, "Influential religious voices in contemporary India include the Shankaracharyas among Hindus, the Imam of Jama Masjid among Muslims and the Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso among Tibetan Buddhists ?" I realize that these persons (except possibly for the Dalai Lama) are not prominent enough to be mentioned in the respective religion's articles, but they may be relevant from the Life in India perspective (for example, the media typically interviews these persons to get the representative religious POV). Of course, we'll need some citations to back any claim. Abecedare 01:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

New section and subsection(s)

Hi all. Started a section named "Influence of religion on social life" (please suggest any better name if you think the name is not suitable). The first subsection of this section is "Daily activities"—highlighting the daily activities characteristic of different religions in India. Found out a good source for Hindu daily activities, and copied some stuffs from there. So, this subsection would need copyediting in order to avoid copyright violation (however, Library of Congress is a .gov site of US government, so copyright status is probably pretty flexible). Added some stuff of Islamic rituals which I was aware of. Please help adding stuffs on other religions.

Besides "Daily activities", this section includes "Pilgrimages" and "Religious festivals" (previously independent sections). One plan is to add information on life-cycle realted activities (birth, marriage, death rituals) of different religions. Hope this edits will give more "Life in India" angle to the article. Please comment and edit. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 12:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Right to divorce for Shia women

Mumbai: In a surprise move, the All India Muslim Shia Law Board on Sunday announced to give Shia women the right to divorce and made marriage a legal contract that would be enforceable in a court of law. Releasing a new Shia Nikahnama here, Maulana Mohammad Athar, president of the AIMSLB said, "The new undertakings are being made mandatory on humanitarian grounds."

Can't figure out where to put this or whether this belongs here at all. --Shahab 18:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Ummmm...probably it does not belong here, at least not in the present structure. It's too specific. May be somewhere in Islam in India?--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Muharram and holi image

IMO, Muharram (or any other festival) does not merit so much space in the article as provided by this edit. This article should be summarised as far as possible. Only names of the festivals, and maximum one sentence on pan-Indian festivals (Diwali, Eid, Muharram, Christmas) would suffice. Please comment. The holi image is not taken in India. That does not preclude its inclusion, but it will be better if we can find out an image taken in India during a significant festival. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Only mentioned Muharram because it is unique in character as it is not celebratory in nature. Its procession has played its part in igniting unrest too sometimes. Also to an extent it is not a global feature. Summarisation is OK, but I feel that it is the Daily Activities section which should be shortened, if not removed. The info it gives is appplicable to same religion people throughout the world. For example even Muslims in US would observe the 5 daily prayers etc. What is unique about Muslims in India? A good idea would be to put any unique info on daily life activity as an intro in the Influence of religion on social life section. What do you think? Cheers.--Shahab 19:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the comments on "Daily activities", yes, anything unique should be there. I added those stuffs just because those were available with reference! If consensus is removal, no problems. However, I thought it would give that Life in India angle. After the addition, it read somewhat stale! Personally I know little about the rituals, and could not find out references either, so could not add much. Any idea about unique Indian rituals?

Regarding Muharram, my opinion is deletion of such long addition. I don't have any idea, but is Tazia relatively unique to India?--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought that it was only relatively unique (and practised maybe in Iran too), but this site says that it is restricted only to Indian Shiites. (Also the site raises an interesting point of it having been inspired by similar processions of Ganesh.) The Taziya should be kept, maybe in some other section, as it a ritual unique to India. Can't think of any other unique Indian rituals at present, but maybe can find out some Sufi ones. By the way can you take a look at the demographics. The data in the 2 tables don't match exactly. I don't know the source of the second table. Lifted it directly from Demographics of India. Cheers--Shahab 20:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Found a site about rituals :Hindu rituals,Muslim rituals. Also see Religion in India. Cheers.--Shahab 20:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Partially solved the problem of the second table of statistics. Still, some entries need references. Will see the links provided by you tomorrow. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh! The links uses the same data (and even the same language) as provided by the Library of Congress site (the reference that has been used so far in creating the "Daily activities" section). I have not gone through the links thoroughly though. But it seems there would be nothing new :( We'll have to try more.--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Pilgrimages

To be pedantic, a pilgrimage is different from a Holy city. Many of the holy places mentioned are piligrimages as such. Some are but in many of them the "journey" isn't significant, just the place itself. So I think the name should be changed to holy cites or holy sites. We could therefore talk about both pilgrimages sites and general holy places. Does anybody have any objections? Gizza 22:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the idea that the terms "pilgrimage sites" or "holy sites" would be more general. Not all holy sites are in cities, I suppose. And perhaps not all holy sites attract pilgrims. In some traditions the act of making the journey, and the way the journey is conducted is of greatest importance. In these traditions the pilgrims do various types of penance on the way, preparing themselves spiritually for arrival. I seem to recall some theological debate about this pertaining to the question of what happens to pilgrims who die on the way, never reaching the goal. I cannot find the citation, but I think that the verdict was that their faithful effort was as good as reaching the goal. Don't put this into the article, of course, as I have no citation and may be mis-remembering the idea. Buddhipriya 00:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I suppose what happens to a pilgrim dieing on the way differs on the religion. I know according to some traditions, death in Varanasi makes your soual attain Moksha just as Muslim dieing in Mecca makes them go to heaven. But even if we find citations, I think the information may be too specific for it to be added. Gizza 01:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

References

The following references in the article seem very iffy to me:

• http://konkanicatholics.blogspot.com/2006/07/feast-of-st-thomas-apostle-to-india.html
• http://www.saag.org/papers10/paper950.html
• http://www.freshnews.in/bjp-cd-is-vote-bank-politics-of-worst-kind-cpi-m-3289
• http://www.geocities.com/ifihhome/articles/bbl002.html

I think they all fail the WP:RS requirements, and should be replaced by better sources. Any objections ? Abecedare 01:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Usually blogs and geocities sites are not considered as reliable source. However, I am not sure about the South Asia Analysis Group. I have seen papers from that site being used in other articles.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted the other 3 sources. South Asia Analysis Group seems genuine, and while the source technically may be considered self-published, it does not present any redfalg issues - so I don't have any objections to leaving it in.

That said, I think some parts of the Religion and Politics section (especially the third paragraph) provides insufficient context for a general reader and probably sufferes from recentism; for example, the sentences "During an election campaign in Uttar Pradesh, the BJP allegedly released an inflammatory CD targeting Muslims. This was condemned by the Communist Party of India (Marxist) as playing the worst kind of vote bank politics." Needs to be looked into eventually. Abecedare 06:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Atheism

There has been a strong tradition of atheism in India. The dravidian movement is based on rationalism. We need to incorporate this in the article. sumal 14:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Religion map

Id be willing to make a map if someone can give me some reference material -- 16:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, thank you for being here. I was planning to contact you :) Anyway, what do you plan to build? I mean how religions can be depicted? (I hardly have any idea on maps, so please excuse me if I sound foolish) --Dwaipayan (talk) 17:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I have got something. Please see this.--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Religion in India and Carvark

Please, add something about Religion and Carvark. vkvora 18:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Good point, but it will need skillful writing so that undue space is not given. Will try. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Tried. Please see if it sounds ok.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I expanded it a bit and worked on the citation format. Ideally, books mentioned in footnotes should be listed in the References section, as they may come up multiple times. Then the authors can be cited just using author name and page number. I also fixed the date for the codification of philosphies, which was after 200 AD. :) Buddhipriya 01:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Used Template:Harvard reference for the book references.--Dwaipayan (talk) 11:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Schools of thought

Shouldn't this article have data on various sects or schools of thought within the principle religions and their number of adherents. Another thing missing is a list of religious institutions. Also, can some experiencd wikipedian please make a todo list for coordinating efforts. That will help. Cheers.--Shahab 13:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Major school of thoughts within the religions and their number of adherents (if data is available) should first be added to the article Major religions in India. Then some of the significant sects (or school of thoughts) may be added in the "Major religions" sections in this article.

What do you exactly mean by religious institutions? Significant temples and mosques? Or missions like Ramakrishna Mission etc? IMO, if you mean the later, it should can be added here in this article.

Will try to make a to do box. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

By institutions I mean thought schools, like Sanatan Dharma etc in Hinduism (I really don't know the principal schools in Hinduism) and Deobandi, Barelvi etc in Islam. But I guess reliable data concerning them would be hard to obtain. The least we can do is just name them in the demographics section. Here is my proposal for the structure:

1. History

1.1 Religious figures

2. Major religions

3. Demographics

4. Religion and the Indian state

4.1 Legal position

4.2 Interference by the state (Here we should have the Shah Bano

case, saffronisation allegations, Laws to check conversion etc.)

5. Influence on the people

5.1 Daily activites

5.2 Special occasions

5.3 Rituals and pilgrimages

6. Problems

6.1 Communal strife

6.2 Vote bank politics

Please comment. Cheers.--Shahab 18:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Pretty neat. Comments— (1) "Special occasions" - what would this encompass besides festivals? (2) Problems may or may not need subsections. However, that can be considered later. (3) Interference by the state - Ummm...Ok! Unless someone suggest a better alternative name, we can go with it. (4) Personally I would like to either have "Religious figures" as a separate section or not having it at all. Because, "History" is very important, and rather not have an apparently unrelated subsection. If needed, "religious figures" in its present form (just mentions the names of the figures) can be deleted. Some sentences describing the significance and influence of major religious figures may be added to some other sections such as History itself, or, Influence on the people. IMO, "religious figures" is not a very important section. What do others think?--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Regarding "schools of thought" take care not to confuse Indian philosophy with Religion in India, as philosophical schools are only one part of much larger picture that also includes ritual practices, devotional trends, etc. I would avoid putting much detail about the philosophical schools here because it will be easier to maintain it if it is in the detail articles for Indian philosophy or Hindu philosophy, which have overlaps already. Buddhipriya 19:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Special Occassion can include festivals, marriage and other religious ceremonies. Maybe a line about the tragic outcomes which blind dogma sometimes leads to. I agree with your view religious figure names should be included into history section (with a link to the main article). Contemporary religious leader names can be put in the intro to Influence on the people. Let's see what others think. Cheers.--Shahab 19:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Aren't many "rituals" also daily (or weekly, yearly :-)) activities? I prefer the rituals be discussed in that sub-section. And an obvious point I would like to make is to not give undue weight to the last ten years in say, the communal strife section. Daily needs to be changed to a broader word, so weekly and months prayers/fasts can be added. Yearly events can go in special occasions. The only word I can think of at the moment is periodic, but there must be a better word. Gizza 05:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

History

Currently it is weak on Jainism and Sikhism, both of which originated and have most of their followers in India. Gizza 07:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

GAN review comments

• First sentence - "Religion in India comprises beliefs and traditions that rank among the world's most ancient and varied." - can be rewritten to bring the message better. If nothing works, leave it as it currently is.
• what does "is the most important minority religion" mean? Sounds like POV to me.
• Suggestion: Use timelines to introduce various religions that exists in India. That would seem to have a better flow
• "have long had a worldwide presence" - once again, POV material. Either be precise or give reference to this phrase
• please put the "secular" declaration by constitutoin in context. If i am not too mistaken, the same was introduced through amendment in 1976. however the same is not evident with the statement here.
• What happens in a few months/years from now when Sonia Gandhi, Manmohan Singh and Abdul Kalam retire from the picture? Do we stop having religious diversity. It is better to use a historic reference i.e., Muslims (Egs for Indian president/PM); Christian (Presidents/Prime Ministers); Sikh (Presidents & PMs) and other religion. Please avoid the use of Sonia as neither she nor her post as Chairperson, UPA has no constitutional powers. If anyone needs to be added, it is BR Ambedkar who coverted to Buddhism.
• "Evidence of prehistoric religion in India is sparse." - Violates Show, don't tell policy. Remove it as the para allows the person to come to a conclusion rather than forcing him into one.
• "After 200 CE, several schools of thought were formally codified in Indian philosophy, including Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Purva-Mimamsa and Vedanta. " - doesn't this sentence skip time (200 CE material mentioned during 500BCE data) or the article's timelines needs to be modified to be kept around in that timeframe.
• Copyedits required to the History section. (Eg: The para on Islam starts with a sentence on the decline of Buddhism. The same could have been the last sentence in the previous para)
• "Sufism (a mystic tradition of Islam)." - the wikilink for sufism starts with "mystic tradition of islam". then why do we need the info in brackets. please remove them
• Need to expand on this - "Although historical evidence suggests the presence of Christianity in India since the first century, it became popular following European colonisation and missionary efforts.". A single sentence is no just way of explaining 2% of Indian population
• When discussing about the history of religions of India, why is this para turning up "Communalism has played a key role in shaping the religious history of modern India ..." If anywhere, it should be a subsection in "Sectarianism". It can be titled - "Communal partition"
• Move the "See Also" in the Demographics section to the end of the section.
• "Islam is a monotheistic religion centred around the belief in one ..." - make it into a seperate para
• As of 2007, India was home to 147 " - change "was" to "is"
• "..147 million Muslims, the world's third-largest Muslim population after Indonesia and Pakistan" - provide numbers for Indonesia and Pakistan
• "Buddhists form majority populations in the Indian states of Sikkim, Arunachal Pradesh, and the Ladakh region of Jammu and Kashmir" make it into a seperate para
• " Jainism is a nontheistic, dharmic religion and philosophy originating in Iron Age India." - make it the first sentence of the next para
• "The preamble to the Constitution of India proclaimed India a "sovereign socialist secular democratic republic". - remove the term "secular" and pur the sentence in context (original constituion). The next sentence on secular/1976/const. amendment completes the overall picture
• The law section needs to be expanded to include the various laws specific to religious practices and various struggles for reforms in these laws. The Hindu marraige act, Shah Bano Case, Muslim Personal Law.
• The image of buddhist dancer in the section on RITUALS is not appropriate
• The ceremonies section is pretty weak as it lacks depth of information. There is no coverage of weddings - differences in weddings across various parts of India; burial ceremonies - muslims bury their loved ones; Hindus cremate etc; the practice of SATI in earlier days and the current constitutional ban on the practice
• Pilgrimage sites looks more like a list. It will be better to make it into a table with the following columns - Name of temple; main deity(s); Religion; Description of the Lord. Eg: Tirumala Venkateswara Temple; Lord Venkateswara (Believed to be a form of Lord Vishnu); Hinduism; Vishnu is worshipped as Venkateswara in Tirumala, Andhra Pradesh. The temple is situated on a hill and the regular darshan lasts 5 seconds. The temple is believed to be the most visited pilgrimage in India and second to Vatican City across the globe.
• Festivals can also be timelined as per the occurance in the annual calendar (range can be given where possible. For eg: Diwali is Early Oct - Mid Nov)
• Why is the article mum on the subject of "Religious conversions". The same needs to be covered here as well
• The politics section needs clean-up as issues whose roots lie elsewhere is described here. For eg: Shah Bano case needs to be discussed in Law section; the 2002 Gujarat riots in the communal violence section; Ram Temple and Babri Masjid in communal violence. They all had political impact but the main identity of these issues is not communal but they were reflected in politics
• "During an election campaign in Uttar Pradesh, the BJP released an inflammatory CD targeting Muslims. This was condemned by the Communist Party of India (Marxist) as playing the worst kind of vote bank politics. " - reeks of WP:Recentism. This sentence can be done away with.
• Consolidating all "Need references"
  • Either here or somewhere in main article, i would need reference for both these phrases - "India is one of the most religiously diverse nations in the world; religion plays a central role in the lives of most Indians"
  • Though inter-religious marriages are generally taboo, Indians are generally tolerant of other religions and retain a secular outlook. Inter-community clashes have never found widespread support in the social mainstream, and it is generally perceived that its causes are political rather than ideological in nature.

In summary, the article has a great start and is a potential FA topic. However the coverage of the various topics in the article is very shallow and needs more data/content as well as copyedit. --Kalyan 11:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Though inter-religious marriages are generally taboo, I disagree. Most Indians don't mind now. I know many people (even in my neighborhood) who marry members outside their own faith. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.227.156.156 (talk) 11:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Hinduism bars beef consumption. It does not bar consumption of beef, Hindus are advised not to eat it but it isn't some compulsory norm. 220.227.156.156 11:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

merge

I moved the demographic and political portions to Religion in India per the merge suggestion. "Indian religions" should discuss the "Dharmic" religions of Indian origin, and as such is a major merge target for the disparate and motley collection of articles, including

• Dharmic religions
• Hinduism and Jainism
• Buddhism and Hinduism
• Jainism and Buddhism
• Sikhism and Jainism
• Sikhism and Hinduism

dab (𒁳) 17:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a great plan. Thanks. Andries 22:55, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2007_September_8#Dharmic_religion. Please centralize the discussion there. Andries 23:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Have you considered also merging Buddha from the Hindu perspective? Addhoc 14:13, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I created user:Andries/Dharma_in_religions because several editors at Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2007_September_8#Dharmic_religion stated that there should be an article about this. It is mainly a copy from dharma. Feel free to improve it. Andries 17:52, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I tried to further clarify the scope of this article by adding another mention of "Republic of India" to the article's beginning. If someone still feels that this is not enough to prevent readers from becoming confused about what the article is about, please comment. Thanks. Saravask 04:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Vedantic / Vedic

The description Vedic period usually describes India upto around 6th century BCE, which is around the time when Jainism and then Buddhism started. Addhoc 16:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Addhoc, that's right. And here is the reference for that :- MODULE 11: INDO-SHRAMANICAL (600 B.C.E. - 300 C.E.), "The term "shramana" is from the root shram, meaning "to exert oneself" or "to practice austerities," and refers to non-Indo-Brahmanical mendicant groups that began to appear in North India some time around the sixth century B.C.E. ", from here : http://www.indiana.edu/~isp/cd_rom/mod_11/mod_11_x.htm.

And AnishShah19, for your kind info I quote your single source of Y. Masih :-

"Y. Masih (2000) In : A Comparative Study of Religions, Motilal Banarsidass Publ : Delhi, ISBN 8120808150 Page 18. "There is no evidence to show that Jainsim and Buddhism ever subscribed to vedic sacrifices, Vedic deities or caste. They are parallel or native religions of India and have contributed to much to the growth of even classical Hinduism of the present times".

The first line is a common fact. There are no rituals or adherence to Vedas in B&J. The second sentence is not entirely true and as my reference shows, is clearly untrue. One doesn't need "sources" to show that some of Jain tirthankars were originally Vedic characters. Just read any translation of Vedas available off the net (google for that). Your own orthodox sources like Jainworld.com say that repeatedly.

But the most important point is that your comment in the article, ", both are a continuation of Shramana traditions which has co-existed with the Vedic tradition" is NOT what is mentioned or what is implied in your reference, besides being Totally Bunkum. Vedic religion is a much older phenomenon and even according to wikipedia's article on Shramana. Indian_Air_Force (IAF) 11:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

IAF For your Kind Information this has been conclusively proved on the talk pages of Dharmic religion and Historical Vedic Religion that Jainism is not post vedic but a pre-vedic religion. But since you cannot understand this simple facts let me put it up once again:

Y. Masih (2000) In : A Comparative Study of Religions, Motilal Banarsidass Publ : Delhi, ISBN 8120808150

• “Till very recently it was believed that Vedic Hinduism is really the oldest form of Indian religion. But, at the present time, it would not be correct to hold this view. Even at the time of Rgveda, there were at least the Dasas/Dasyus who racially differed much from the Aryans, and certainly much more in their religious theories and practices. The Dasas Dasyus were linga-worshippers and had a god different from Indra. They did not have animal-sacrifice and had observances quite different from those of the Vedic Aryans. Most probably proto-Shiva of Mohenjo-daro was one of their deities.

It is not possible to know much at present about the Dasas Dasyus.But certainly,we find Ajivikism, Jainism and Buddhism as three religions which did not share the Vedic Aryan religion called Brahmanism which accepted the Vedas as the only religious scripture for it, and, keeping to the caste maintained the excellence and supremacy of the Brahmins over all other castes and people. The non-Vedic religions of Ajivikism*, Jainism and Buddhism did not accept the Vedas as their holy books and did not have castes.” Page 17

• “There is no evidence to show that Jainsim and Buddhism ever subscribed to vedic sacrifices, vedic deities or caste. They are parallel or native religions of India and have contributed to much to the growth of even classical Hinduism of the present times.” Page 18

• “This confirms that the doctrine of transmigration is non-aryan and was accepted by non-vedics like Ajivikism, Jainism and Buddhism. The Indo-aryans have borrowed the theory of re-birth after coming in contact with the aboriginal inhabitants of India. Certainly Jainism and non-vedics accepted the doctrine of rebirth as supreme postulate or article of faith.” Page 37

• “We know only this much that the doctrine of karma-samsara-jnana-mukti is first seen in the clearest form in the shramanic tradition. It is now even accepted by orthodox bhramins. This doctrine is not clearly spelled out in Rgvedas and not even in the oldest parts of Upanishads called chandogya and Brhadaranyaka.” Page 149

• “Jainism is a very old non-Vedic religion and some of its features go back to the times of Indus Valley Civilization. Like the Upanishads and Buddhism, Jainism was a kshatriya movement. It had its locus in a religion which was not yet touched by Brahmin cult. These regions East of Sadanira (modern Gandaka) were inhabited by non-Aryan tribes.

Jainism is not an offshoot of Vedic Brahminism. It belonged to the people who were essentially agriculturist, who valued bulls and cows. They therefore had simple living and could practice ahimsa and austerities. In contrast, the Vedic Aryans were essentially pastoral people and they were used to animal-sacrifice. Naturally the Aryan and non-Aryan people of India were always in conflict, and, so in their religious beliefs too they held opposite views. In the long run, the Vedic Aryans accepted all that was of importance in Jainism and Buddhism. The present Hinduism is a commingled stream of Aryan and non-Aryan cults. Keeping in mind the independent and parallel development of Jainism, we can proceed further.” Page 235

• “The four pillars of Jainism karma-samsara-jnana-mukti have been assimilated into Hinduism. The Pancamahavrata of Jainism (Satya, Ahimsa…) have been fully adopted by Hinduism though not with the same rigour.” Page 237-8 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anishshah19 (talk • contribs) 11:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

And by the way - wikipedia itself cannot be the source of another wikipedia article.Anish Shah 11:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

AnishShah, if Mr. Joel Diederik Beversluis (your source) claims that Jaina tradition dates to 3000 BC and that it predates pre-Vedic times, he'd better go back to school (with you in tow of course). Not only is this source bogus and dubious, it appears to be motivated.

Haven't you learnt by now that if 2 sources claim conflicting things, (like my Indiana University source vs your Masih and Joel sources) then the edit ought to reflect both lines of thought ? I am not going that way however, because what your 'sources' claim are not even claimed by the main article on Jainism. DO Not attempt further vandalism by utterly nonsensical claims. Indian_Air_Force (IAF) 12:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

IAF I am happy to note your sudden realisation that - "if 2 sources claim conflicting things, then the edit ought to reflect both lines of thought". If you would have read my edits carefully I have merely referenced that jainism is the oldest religion. I have not put it up in the main article since I understand that there is no consensus amongst scholars. Anyway Since edit wars are time consuming and disruptive and I want to concentrate on the pathetic state of other Jainism articles, I suggest a truce and following consensus :-

• You dont claim that Jainism came out of Vedic religion (I have dozens of sources to prove it)
• I will not claim that Jainism is the oldest religion or a pre-vedic religion. (I once again have dozens of sources to prove that it is pre-vedic religion)
• We can arrive at a consensus that Vedic and Shramanic stream have co-existed side by side and have influenced each other almost equally.
• I will not touch Historical Vedic religion article as long as it is in the present form.

Dont think this call for truce is out of weakness as you very well know that I can bash false arguments and tall claims totally.Anish Shah 13:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Hinduism is the oldest religion. The only other religions remotely close to the age of Hinduism are Zoroastrianism and perhaps Judaism, not Jainism. This is more or less an established fact.

Wiki is not a battleground, there are no "truces".

Whatever "Vedic", "shramanic" and other catch phrases yourself and IAF and other wish to use, Jainism, Buddhism, etc. grew out of Hinduism and some in fact still consider it little more than a sect of Hinduism. Aliens didnt start it.

Bakaman 18:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Baka. AnishShah, there is no barter system for trading in edits prevalent here, and so just stop your kiddish rants. Write only if you have anything other than Jain-samaj sources. Indian_Air_Force (IAF) 04:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Masih's sources that Manish Modi seeks to bring back DO NOT take into account facts. Some Jain Tirthankars clearly find mention in the Vedas, which means that Jainism has definite Vedic influence. This fact need not be 'sourced'. Indian_Air_Force (IAF) 09:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Baka, Your statement “Aliens didnt start it” was in bad taste and I thought you were better than IAF atleast. When you are discussing someone’s religion if not respect atleast show some civility.

IAF, with your penchant for edit wars and abusive language, I should have realized that you don’t believe in consensus and are out to impose the hackneyed misconceptions propagated by the right wing on wiki. You have been warned many times for edit warring and abusive language, but some people will never improve. So be it. I tried my level best to arrive at a consensus. As for the kiddish rants it is you are going and complaining about me like a K.G. kid to Baka and Vinay as you are unable to argue with me alone.

As for the reference (Module 11) that you are gleefully quoting on which your entire argument is based, as usual you don’t seem to have done your homework well. Refer MODULE 6: THE JINA AND THE BUDDHA ( http://www.indiana.edu/~isp/cd_rom/mod_06/mod_06.htm )which says : “As mentioned earlier in our brief summary of the religions of India, the Jain tradition is one of the oldest traditions in India and may go back as far as Indus Valley times, that is, to the second millenium Before the Common Era (2000-1500 BCE), although the precise origins of the tradition are not yet fully known.”

MODULE 11: INDO-SHRAMANICAL (600 B.C.E. - 300 C.E.), itself admits that: “With the Indo-Shramanical layer, which may well reflect the resurfacing of pre-brahmanical traditions”

This renders your entire argument and line of thinking false. As usual you manage to shoot yourself in the foot. The more argument you do, the more my case is strengthened. I ought to thank you for it. Thanks for proving that Jainism is older than Hinduism. By the way whenever you feel like arriving at a consensus and behave in wikilike manner I am open to it. Till then, I will keep on trashing your foolish arguments.

The Fact that Vedas mention the Tirthankars means - 1) Tirthankars pre-date vedas and 2)Vedas were influenced by Tirthankars. This is the conclusion that any reasonable person with even average intelligence will make.--Anish Shah 09:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

AnishShah, your arguments hang upon tenaciously and precariously positioned SPECULATIONS. They don't have a leg to stand on (as usual). The Indiana Univ clearly denotes by time the Indus-Valley (3000 BC to 1500BC), Indo-Brahminical (l500 B.C.E. - 600 B.C.E) and Indo-Shramanical (600-300 BCE) ages here : . If you've even gone through preliminary comprehension reading in school, you would have gone through the following from the same pages of Indiana State University :-

1) "One seal shows a strange, horned figure sitting in what could be described as a Yogic or meditation posture and surrounded by four animals. Some older archaeologists have suggested that this might be some sort of "proto-Shiva" figure, since in later Hindu traditions the great Hindu god, Shiva, is considered to be the lord of Yoga. Moreover, the four animals might suggest Shiva as "lord of animals" (pashupati), a well-known designation of Shiva in later times. Some more recent archaeologists and art historians have disputed this interpretation."

2) "In any case, in addition to the seals, archaeologists have also uncovered what appear to be phallus-shaped stones and crude terra-cotta female figurines, suggesting some sort of fertility cult and belief in a mother goddess. All of this is highly speculative and debatable, mainly because the Indus Valley script and language has not yet been deciphered."

^^These 2 comments invalidate Masih's Pg 17. paras that you quoted earlier. Shooting in the foot ? Talk about shooting yourself in the head.

And finally,

"To the extent that this "village Hindu" spirituality is not unlike the folk spirituality that goes back to time immemorial, it is not implausible to suggest that a majority of Hindus in present-day India still follow a pre-historic spirituality that pre-dates even the Indus Valley layer of civilization."

That one sentence that you are so happily and brazenly showing as a vindication of all the nonsense that you've said so far, itself says "maybe" and "might be". In other words, it is NOT established fact otherwise imagine what I could do with these 2 references that I quoted above. I wouldv'e gone on a rampage ! Hence, what you are doing here is to present these 'maybes' as absolute fact. This in turn proves that you do not know editing.

You have always been synonymous with vandalism and the injection of Jain orthodoxy, first into the pages of Dharmic Religion and now here. It is high time that you and your paid-for sources like 'Joel' are stopped. Masih's crap like, "The Indo-aryans have borrowed the theory of re-birth after coming in contact with the aboriginal inhabitants of India."

The reason why I restrain myself from editing this and the Historical Vedic Religion page is because of two constraints. One, I do not have sources to prove that the aniquity of some of the Upanishads, is older than the Sharamana tradition. b And secondly, due to religious sensitivities and political reasons, one cannot say that except Mahavira, all the other Jain Tirthankars are mythical and have no history to back them up. Those that actually have an inkling of existence, are first mentioned in the Vedas along with the ideas they propounded like , and . Shetasvatara and Kausitaki Upanishads of 800 BC first porposed Reincarnation. Not only that, some Tirthankars as I had shown in the now defunct DR religions talk page find mention as devils in Mahabharat : the reason of a clear fallout between Hindu and Jain followers. That they find a fleeting mention amongst many others, clearly indicates the antiquity of even the Itihasas than shramana tradition. This is something which has been generally accepted in India since ages but muddled by western scholarship like Maxi Mule-er.

Anyway, as per the clearly defined temporal classification given in the Indiana edu scholarly articles, and the fact that Jain Tirthankaras derive either their character and/or role from Vedas, and some central ideas from Veidc or very early Vedantic literature, I am reverting the article back to my version. Indian_Air_Force (IAF) 15:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Dear friends, Jay Jinendra

We must all be polite, courteous and civil with each other. And we must not make it our life's mission to rubbish the beliefs and traditions of others. IAF, are you listening?

It is against the spirit of Bharatiyata to run down and denounce other religions. Not just against the spirit of Wiki culture. So kindly do not try to run down Jainism. And please desist from reversing what is being contributed on Jainism. It is not only offensive, it is non-productive.

I do not see what kick you get out of running down religious traditions other than your own, but seeing that you do not even use your true name and hide behind your alibi, one is compelled to doubt your bonafides.

Please read some original texts of Jainism composed in Prakrit and Sanskrit to know that the Tirthankaras did not derive any ideas, role or character from the Vedas. They had absolutely nothing to do with the Vedas. And if some Tirthankaras are mentioned, with great reverence, in the Vedas, all it shows is that they predate the Vedas. And that they were very highly regarded by the Vedic people.

Reading up on Jain scriptures would help you realise that Jainism and Hinduism do not have much in common other than the fact that they both took birth in India.

A good reading of nyaya texts, which record the epistemological debates held between Hindus (Vedantis), Jains (Nirgranthas) and Buddhists (Bauddhas) will make it amply clear the great disparity that exists between the three religions and their central teleology.

Manish Modi 18:28, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The Indo-Shramanical tradition has been clearly demarcated as being in the timeline of 600-300 BC only. Masih's assertion that and I quote, "The Shramana and Vedic traditions co-esisted", is just not true. This compounded with the fact that Jainism owes a significant contrib from Vedas in terms of origin of important Tirthankars and some ideas is a given that Jain tradition dates After the Vedic period ended and the Vedantic period began in India.

Bal Gangadhar Tilak's statement does not imply that Jainism predated or even co-existed with the Vedic period much less arose after the Vedantic period began. He simply states that the Vedic period had emphasis on animal sacrifices, which was significantly affected by the Jain practice of Ahimsa later on.

Manish Modi, we are discussing history and Not right-wing myths. Indian_Air_Force (IAF) 04:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Dear IAF, Jay Jinendra

You have summarily debunked a recognised academic source such as Y Masih. You have not even bothered to give any academic reference. On what basis do you state that Y Masih is not true?

Since Tirthankaras find mention in the Vedas, it is evident that they existed before the Vedas! So how can you say that Jainism evolved in the 6th century BCE? Illogical.

Tirthankaras and their philosophy of Shramanatva has nothing to do with the Vedas. Jain and Buddhist philosophy is completely different from Vedic philosophy. So what you claim as "fact" is in fact a myth. It is a POV.

Hope this helps.

yours Manish Manish Modi 15:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey IAF! Jay Jinendra

Please pipe down your tone. You are being rude and arrogant.

What you are saying is clearly tinted with your POV. That is why you use language like "Orthodox Jain nonsense". This kind of language is not acceptable in a serious work like Misplaced Pages which is an academic work. Not a platform to brandish your prejudiced jingostic ideas.

Btw, Anish and I are real persons. And unlike you, we do not hide behind misleading petnames like IAF. Apparently, earlier, you tried to call yourself Indian Air Force but were stopped from doing so. So now you call yourself IAF.

Please do not try to obfuscate the issue by trying to project that Anish and I are one person! We are not.

I saw your replies to what Anish had stated. What strikes me is your arrogance, rudeness and air of smugness! Rather than trying a level headed sensible approach, you are sabre rattling! This tone and language is not appropriate to Misplaced Pages. So please pipe down.

In your excitement to reply to Anish, you mistakenly sent your reply under the wrong heading. But never mind. I understand that you are getting worked up.

The crux of your argument, the timeline issue is not provable. It cannot be academically verified. Maybe you need to read academic papers on this topic written by Vedic specialists like Prof Michael Witzel to upgrade your knowledge on this issue.

I will sign off by saying that your argument that the Tirthankaras were borrowed from the Vedas and that Jainism has borrowed things verbatim from the Upanishads is not only offensive but totally incorrect and entirely the product of your fevered imaginanings. Kindly do not misuse a noble project like Misplaced Pages, which a modern Jnanarnava (Ocean of knowledge), by placing such offensive and inaccurate data on it.

Best wishes, Manish Modi 16:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

(M)Anish Modi, what you've just said are empty retorts and empty arguments. Merely saying, "What you say ain't true" is not enough. You have to bring resources, references and scholarly material. In your avatar as AnishShah you did, but it was summarily and soundly buttressed by more reliable and verifiable sources of mine.

Learn to edit in wikipedia. Threats, abuses and masquerading as different persons is NOT going to hold you and your acrimonious kind in good stead over here.-----Bharatiya_Vayu_Sena(BVS). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.243.3.105 (talk) 05:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The Proof of Antiquity of the Sharamana tradition (Jainism)

IAF, Upto now the maximum that you could prove is the ability to use abusive language and ability to extract some data by googling. The maximum references that you could provide is of the websites and not actual scholarly references. The two points that you have mentioned above are also highly speculative. However I admit that there could be an element of truth in it. We have to see the truth from both the sides. It is clear that Indiana.edu speculates on the antiquity of both shramana and vedic traditions.

They have merely bifurcated the ages between vedic and shramana to indicate the dominating influence of the tradition. If the age of the shramana is 600BCE to 300 BCE, does it mean that vedic civilization was wiped out in between this period ? Evidently this would be a wrong interpretation, as it did exist but was eclipsed during this period because of pre-dominating influence of Lord Mahavira and Lord Buddha. In the same vein, Shramans did exist during the Indus valley (3000 B.C.E. - 1500 B.C.E.) and The Indo-Brahmanical civilization (c. 1500 B.C.E. - 600 B.C.E.) albeit with a lesser influence. This is evident when Indiana.edu says that “Jain tradition is one of the oldest traditions in India and may go back as far as Indus Valley times” and “Indo-Shramanical layer, reflects the resurfacing of pre-brahmanical traditions”

That is why I have mentioned that :- “ vedic tradition and shramana tradition have co-existed side by side influencing each other.”

Yet, contrary to your claim, you have already gone on rampage and wrecking a havoc on the truth as you are more concerned about ideology rather than truth. And with your usual abusive language you have come too far imposing your brand of half-truths that even when the truth is staring at you on the face, your ego and ideology prevents you from seeing it.

I have not only quoted from the websites bit also from the scholars to prove my point. I have refrained from using the Jain text sources while you are quoting from Vedas and Upanishads and yet you accuse me of quoting “Jain Samaj” sources.

Let me provide additional “non-Jain samaj” sources from scholars :-

A. Dr. Vilas Sangave (2001) In : Facets of Jainology: Selected Research Papers on Jain Society, Religion, and Culture . Popular Prakashan: Mumbai ISBN 8171548393

1) Dr. Vilas Sangave in his address delivered on the basis of his paper “Jainism : the Oldest religion” at ‘Parliament of World religions- Centennial Celebrations, Chicago, 1993 says “ Further, Jainism is an Independent religion of India and this fact is now acknowledged at all levels. It is established beyond doubt that Jainism is a distinct religion of India and not on offshoot of either Hinduism or Buddhism. The Jain religion, philosophy, ethics, gods, temples, sacred places, scriptures, teachers, ascetics, vows, holy days festivals, and outlook on life and culture, with and emphasis on Ahimsa are not only distinct from their Hindu counterparts but also not accepted and followed by Hindus. “ Page 99-100

2) “Further the jain communities is one of the very ancient communities of India. The existence of the Jain religion can not only be traced to the vedic period but even to the Induis valley period of the Indian History. The names of Jain Tirthankars are mentioned in the Vedas and there is evidence to show that the Indus valley people must be worshipping Rishabhdeva the first Tirthankar of the Jains along with the other deities. Thus Hoary antiquity is a special feature of the Jain community and it is pertinent to note that this feature is not present in other religious minorities in India.

3) Apart from antiquity, the jain community enjoys the characteristic of unbroken continuity Few communities can claim such a long and continued existence” Page 3-4

4) “But now it is generally accepted that Jainism is a distinct religion and that it is as old as, if not older than, the Vedic religion of the Hindus.” Page 14

B.Mary Pat Fisher (1997) In : Living Religions: An Encyclopedia of the World's Faiths I.B.Tauris : London ISBN 1860641482

“The extreme antiquity of Jainism as a non-vedic, indigenous Indian religion is well documented. Ancient Hindu and Buddhist scriptures refer to Jainism as an existing tradition which began long before Mahavira.” Page 115

C.Diederik Beversluis (2000) In: Sourcebook of the World's Religions: An Interfaith Guide to Religion and Spirituality, New World Library : Novato, CA ISBN 1577311213

" Originating on the Indian sub-continent, Jainism is one of the oldest religion of its homeland and indeed the world having pre-historic origins before 3000 BCE, and before the propagation of Indo-Aryan culture….Page 81 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anishshah19 (talk • contribs) 06:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Manish Bhai for your prompt edits and comments.--Anish Shah 06:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

AnishShah, till now I have not been rude, but the despicable and lowly extent that you've gone to promote your nonsense, prompts me to say this :- uncowardly are those who don't masquerade as others. Don't get it ? The Sinebot signed your comment, which you wanted to pass off as Manish Modi's "prompt edits and comments". You were caught with your pants down dude.

Now here is a rejoinder to my earlier salvo of jnana.

Your first outright lie at the outset was that your sources are not from Jainworld.com. False. Dr. Vilas Sangave is a recipient of Jain-samaj's 'honour' as a contributor of Jain philosophy and 'history'. He speaks mostly on their pages. is an example and is the complete list. This includes a larger group of Jains from Jain-samaj who organize paid seminars across the globe. These people are members of the Orthodoxy and in No way constitute frontline scholarship.

1) We are not discussing how distinct Jainism is from any other faith system. We are discussing timelines and origin of these faiths.

2) Your second point is, "The existence of the Jain religion can not only be traced to the vedic period but even to the Induis valley period of the Indian History. The names of Jain Tirthankars are mentioned in the Vedas and there is evidence to show that the Indus valley people must be worshipping Rishabhdeva the first Tirthankar of the Jains along with the other deities."

Mr. Sangave needs to be shown the previous reference. In the same vein as he claims that Rishabh Dev can be dated back to the Indus Valley times, Hindus can claim a plethora of things from Indus-Valley like Pasupathinath (Shiva), Rishabh Dev himself, who is venerated as a Bull in RigVed, Yogic postures, Mother Goddess (like Kali or Durga), Swastika symbols being found on Harappan seals etc. etc.

But you see nobody claims that Hinduism stretches back to IVC. And neither do any of the historians do so because the Indus-Valley script remains as yet undeciphered. Anyway, even if Rishabh Dev is found to have been venerated by the IVC people, it will be recorded as a Vedic god because of his enormous mention in the Vedas; the Shramana tradition would be seen as having borrowed or plagiariased Vedic dieties to present them as their own.

3) But now it is generally accepted that Jainism is a distinct religion and that it is as old as, if not older than, the Vedic religion of the Hindus. Nobody except Mr. Sangave and his ilk believe so. In which Indian history textbook of school do you find such scraps of crap ? All history tells that Jain tradition begins in the 5th century BC and that Jains believe that they had 24 tirthankars just prior to that.

4) The extreme antiquity of Jainism as a non-vedic, indigenous Indian religion is well documented. Ancient Hindu and Buddhist scriptures refer to Jainism as an existing tradition which began long before Mahavira. No Hindu text even mentions Hinduism. This is false.

Your last source is a cleverly disguised chap whom I forced you to remove earlier : Our very own Joel Diederik.

So, reverting back to the right, verified, reliable and accurate version of the article earlier-----contrary to the JW articles put forth by AnishShah (a.k.a.) Manish Modi. Indian_Air_Force (IAF) 15:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

IAF so now have started nitpicking over the non-issues. Just because I forgot to sign one of my comments you have tried to capitalise over it because you don’t have any other issues to speak of. Afterwards you are trying to discredit scholars like Vilas Sangave. Dr. Vilas A. Sangave is a Director Shahu Research Institute. According to Vice-chancellor of Shivaji University, Dr Manikrao Salunkhe , Dr Sangave, a renowned editor of Rajarshi Shahu Chhatrapati papers, has done a distinctive research series in Social History and is pioneer of sociological studies of Janism as well as the architect of development sociology discipline in Shivaji University. He has been awarded the D.litt. for his contributions to research on Rajarshi Shahu Chhatrapati papers. http://news.oneindia.in/2006/12/07/shivaji-university-to-confer-d-litt-upon-vilas-sangave-1165435387.html.

Now I will prove how you are taking everyone for a ride by your viscious, vitrolic, turgid edits and discussions. Just because no administrator is looking you are vandalising these pages with impunity.--Anish Shah 08:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

--Anish Shah 08:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

All that I am trying to say is that Vedic and Shramanic traditions have existed side-by-side since ages influencing each other.--Anish Shah 09:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge-in needed

The article Public holidays in India consists almost entirely of the various religious festivals, almost none of which are actually public holidays. Could some savvy person merge that in here, filtering what is (and is not) a public holiday along the way? Thx. -- Fullstop 17:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

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