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• Refining the administrator elections process
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Disruption from User:Bayrak along ethnic lines

Most of this user's edits so far appear to have a pro-Arab, anti-Iranian slant that does not work entirely within the framework of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. Here are some examples I can pull up:

Trying to edit articles along original (and frankly, incorrect) viewpoints (that if a man is a Seyed then he must be an Arab): see Talk:Ruhollah Khomeini#Isn't he Arab!! In that section he was warned , yet he decided to try it again on December 5th Talk:Ruhollah Khomeini#the fake sayed...

Patently absurd attempt to deny that Azeris can have Iranian nationality: azeris are not iranian/persian. That he chose to attempt this on the article about the Supreme Leader of Iran (who is a prominent example of an Azeri with Iranian nationality) suggests that Bayrak is just trying to cause trouble.

Sometimes he removes tags without adding a source Other times he will tag and/or remove material without any attempt to look up the issue, usually in order to remove claims about people being Persian faaaaaaaaaaaakeeeeeeeee that is not translete & all his works in arabic he is not persian. He might add "arabic" without providing a source they were arabs. It is curious how his double standard organizes itself along ethnic lines...

He might even repeatedly remove sourced material without sound explanation if the material asserts that something is Iranian:

AGF violation with regard to original images: fake......... He remove the image (of Iranian girls in Kuwait) because he happens to doubt its veracity but makes no attempt to contact author or otherwise give the benefit of the doubt. It seems bad practice, and that it is also applied against an Iranian presence (since he denies that there are many Iranians in Kuwait) fits into a troubling pattern of ethnic warring.

This list is hardly exhaustive. The apparent ethnic motivation for much of this disruption is quite a manner of concern. It seems unfair on constructive editors that this behavior can continue unchecked from a user who has shown little desire to become a constructive editor. 67.194.202.113 (talk) 21:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't really have much to add to this, he said everything perfectly. Let me just clarify one thing. He does go on the talk pages. He is never persuaded from the view he took before going to the page. He ignores arguments and points we make sometimes, doesn't even acknowledge that we made them. And last but not least, he persistently pushes his views if we disagree. The entire thing is frustrating. --Enzuru 21:13, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

And even so, he only goes to the talk page in some of the cases. At Ossetians, for example, where he repeatedly removed the multiply-sourced (and fairly uncontroversial) fact that they are an Iranian people, he never took the issue to the talk page, even after being asked: questionanswer. But as you have pointed out, his participation at the talk page yields no fruit anyway. 67.194.202.113 (talk) 21:23, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Aside from the diffs of tag removal, which I agree are a concern, some of the other complaints here are pretty vague, without clear evidence, or citing very old evidence (those diffs about removing sources are from months ago). For example, can anyone provide a diff that shows a recent case where there was a clear talkpage consensus, and Bayrak editing against that consensus? If not, this really isn't a matter for ANI. I'd recommend some other step in dispute resolution, such as starting a thread at the Ethnic/Cultural conflicts noticeboard. I'll also have a word with Bayrak about the tags. --Elonka 21:52, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

This is rather recent. --Enzuru 22:52, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The Khomeini situation is also recent, particularly his decision to continue the same ridiculous thread even though he was warned against it. The Khamenei edit was also within the last few days. The disruptive behavior is evident in both older and recent edits; you might say that it is characteristic of his Misplaced Pages career, unfortunately. It hardly seems reasonable to go to whatever instruction creep noticeboard over a lone wolf. He obviously he knows the rules, since he cited them when removing information he didn't like. That he then violates them for his own ends betrays an underlying lack of respect for Misplaced Pages rules, not a lack of understanding; having witnessed his repugnant double standard it is difficult to accept claims of innocence or misunderstanding. I emphasize that we should not be misled by these tactics, as it only prolongs the disruption and the frustration of genuinely well-meaning users. We have tried discussion, explanation, and warning to no avail. 67.194.202.113 (talk) 05:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

in arabic wikipedia we do not Accept the complaint from I.P i dont know here if they do because behaind the I.P always plots --Bayrak (talk) 21:45, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

This isn't Arabic Misplaced Pages. WP:AGF --Smashville 22:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

It is amusing when a user provides an example of his own inappropriate behavior by his response to a thread about his inappropriate behavior. Bayrak, you might consider actually presenting a defense to the charges against you, instead of attacking me (or any other user) without sound reasoning. 67.194.202.113 (talk) 05:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I've got the relevant articles (Khwārizmī, Ruhollah Khomeini) added to my watchlist, have added a couple comments to the talkpages, and will keep an eye on the edits of Bayrak (talk · contribs), 67.194.202.113 (talk · contribs), and Enzuru (talk · contribs). If other admins agree, this thread can probably be marked as resolved, perhaps "Situation is now subject to admin monitoring, no other action required at this time." --Elonka 06:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

You are the only admin who has opined on this matter so far, and your response (asking for "recent diffs" even though they were already presented) suggests that you do not fully understand the case at this time. It is important that we do more than we have already done for he has not responded appropriately to our reactions so far. We could use a few more administrative opinions on how we should respond differently to this case depending on what direction it takes from now on. 67.194.202.113 (talk) 06:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

What exactly is it that you would like administrators to do? --Elonka 18:37, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

You need to be harsher with him than you have. Your message on his talk page treats him as if he just doesn't know any better, which is hardly the case. Do not give him the benefit of the doubt. It is wrong to assume good faith at this point, since he has shown understanding of the rules only when they were convenient to him; this precludes a genuine misunderstanding of the rules and reveals that he does not care for the rules but rather is advancing an agenda along ethnic lines, using the rules when they help and disregarding them when they do not. Any words he may now try to hide behind (blaming poor English skills or newness) should be taken with a grain of salt because the evident double standard speaks against his claimed innocence and ignorance. What you need to communicate is that the ill nature of his editing so far is now clear to all, and thus any further transgressions will be met with a block since he knows better. I've already warned him to this end but he, of course, did not care, and even boldly continued the very disruptive thread that I had warned him against. As an administrator, you may be able to scare him into compliance, but it must first be clear that you are not misled by his attempts to dodge around the true nature of his misbehavior. 67.194.202.113 (talk) 20:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. It seems as though those who are resisting the rather absurd edits of editor "Bayrak" have received far more of a "tongue lashing" of sorts, than the actual culprit at hand. Bayrak very well understands the rules and purpose of Misplaced Pages, and only claims ignorance when the situation suits him. The bottom line is that Bayrak has an agenda that is clearly anti-Persian/anti-Iranian in nature, and is attempting to use the English language Misplaced Pages to advance that said agenda. He will no doubt continue this behavior until some action is taken. The Scythian 21:17, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

It is frustrating to see nothing is done, and I'm sure he's quite emboldened that an administrator is asking us for a consensus on an article that has historically had a strong consensus against what he wishes. --Enzuru 02:15, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Hmm, amusing. Particularly since the Azeris are partially Iranian, at the least. I'll keep an eye on this fellow. If he doesn't make any productive contributions he'll be banned before too long. Moreschi (talk) 23:06, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, enough is enough, he has decided to push the disruptive Khomeini thread further . Just block him at this point; there is no point tolerating further trolling and stupid games from him. 67.194.202.113 (talk) 09:01, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey 67.xxx -- I don't edit much in such articles, but saw this thread here and since i have an interest in these matters have kept an eye on it. I was leaning towards your views on bayrak, based on what i was reading here. But that dif you point too from a talk page doesn't seem particularly bad. I don't know about Khomenei, but many millions of Iranians (including khamenei, right?) claim decent from the prophet's tribe. Claiming such descent doesn't make them less Iranian; there's been lots of intermarriage and big families in the past 1,400 years. I'm not weighing in on whether that guy's talk page assertion about Khomeini and the Quraysh is true (that content issue should be dealt with over there -- should be easy to answer given the shared Iranian and Arab interest in geneology). Just pointing out that comment doesn't come close to out of bounds.Bali ultimate (talk) 15:50, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, read the whole talkpage. Bayrak is clearly pursuing an agenda (basically his argument is that Khomenei had an arab ancestor in the distant past and that this makes him "Arab" rather than "Iranian"). Various attempts have been made to point out why this is wrong. He's bullheaded. So, i can see why one would feel he's disruptive and pushing an agenda. Why not just ignore him as long as he's confined to the talk page? If he starts pushing this content into the article against conensus, then come back?Bali ultimate (talk) 16:13, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Bali is correct. Bayrak's comments may or may not be tendentious, but I'm reluctant to block someone simply for speaking their mind on a talkpage. If he were pushing inappropriate edits into the article against talkpage consensus, that would be something different, but if he's just trying to present his point of view on a talkpage, that's what we want people to do in a dispute. If no one agrees with him, well, ignore him. --Elonka 19:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The disruption is not confined to the talk pages. Please actually read the diffs presented as evidence; must of this starts in the article. A quick survey of his contributions will also demonstrate this point further. It usually begins with some absurd anti-Iranian/pro-Arab change to the article (at Khomeini, at Khamenei, at Ossetians, at articles about some medieval scholars, and so on). Eventually he may go to the talk page, but as we have seen his participation is not constructive and is often akin to trolling, and is persistent. With disruptive article edits and disruptive talk page edits, with knowledge of the rules (which are respected only when convenient to him), I am completely boggled by the drive to protect him and extend the benefit of the doubt to him in this thread. Even if there hadn't been disruption on the articles, since when is talk page trolling even after warnings an acceptable Misplaced Pages career? If he had stopped after warning, then maybe we could say we misunderstood him. If he stopped after this thread, then maybe we could still say we misunderstood him. But he has continued some of the very same threads that he was warned against; that this provocation has been tolerated by administrators is quite unfortunate. 67.194.202.113 (talk) 21:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not seeing trolling here, I am seeing someone with a limited grasp of English. I imagine that if I tried to participate on the Arabic Misplaced Pages, my own posts would be fairly unintelligible, and if someone gave me a long thoughtful reply back, I would just see it as an indecipherable wall of text, and I would probably miss all the philosophical subtleties of what they were trying to say. So I would reply based on what I did understand, and then if they got angry that I wasn't responding to the rest of their post, and responded to me with more stuff I didn't understand, the situation would spiral. My recommendation is to try a bit more patience. Speak to this editor in short and simple sentences. Use small words. When he ignores you, don't assume that he's deliberately ignoring. Instead, assume that he couldn't understand what you just said because you may have used words that were not in his vocabulary. Now, I do agree with Moreschi below that there's a limit to how much patience we need to show to someone who doesn't have enough English to effectively participate in this project, but let's not make things worse by using the "troll" word. --Elonka 23:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I actually can see this guy is moving in the direction of a block (i appear to disagree with Elonka on this -- his grasp of english appears strong enough to understand the substance of the issues). However, Elonka, an admin, appears to have promised in good faith to keep an eye on this guy. I'm sure she will and you should continue to do so, and if more of the same behavior emerges in article mainspace, other steps might be taken. You may be back here soon. When you come back, frame it like this UserX did y, was warned, did y again. Was warned about similair problems in the past. Provide diffs for it all. He might end up getting blocked. But continuing to insist he get blocked now is not going to help your later case, is not going to get what you want now, and just might lead to your position being taken less seriously (in a volunteer project, sometimes squeeky wheels get less grease, however unfair that might seem).Bali ultimate (talk) 23:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll be sure to bring it to attention if the behavior continues. Hopefully then the correct decision will be taken, instead of the coddling and delay seen so far. 67.194.202.113 (talk) 23:48, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The user "Bayrak" says above "in arabic wikipedia we do not Accept the complaint from I.P i dont know here if they do because behaind the I.P always plots". This is the best proof of why the complain is relevant. I think everbody agrees that from the language X to the language Y arguments should not loose their validity. If in arabic wikipedia things are so as he says, then we should think about a review on whole ar.wikipedia.org.--خنیاگر (talk) 21:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

• DFTT, people. He can rant on talkpages, just ignore him. If it's offtopic remove it per WP:TALK. Otherwise just don't feed. Obviously if he starts putting this stuff into articles in the future it's a much more serious matter and we will deal with that proactively.
• Although frankly this guy's English is so poor I question the point of him editing here. Misplaced Pages is not language school. That needs to improve as well. People with broken English need to prove they are worth taking time over. If they don't contribute worthwhile content...

• A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away I spent many long days copy-editing the works of a Russian editor whose articles contained many instances of...idiosyncratic...grammar. But, as the result was outstanding Russian opera articles, everyone was really happy. It's not that hard to show us you're worth the trouble. Moreschi (talk) 20:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Orangejumpsuit

Orangejumpsuit (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), recently blocked, engaging again in tendentious editing, incivility, edit warring, etc.

A quick review of his recent edits should make it clear, but if you want a summary...After being warned many times by me and others for this behavior, comes off block to immediately edit war to remove material he sees as negative from Henry Hyde, he claims as retribution for the Barack Obama article being too full of praise. Responds to warnings on talk page with accusations of me being a "THUG" and such on my own talk page and his. Please be careful in reviewing his talk page because he has been manipulating it to remove warnings, retitle headings to make them accusations against me, etc. In principle he can do what he wants on his talk page so that is not the problem behavior itself, only a showing that he is on notice of a possible block, he has vowed to continue, and all attempts by me and others to reign this in have failed. If I fix the Henry Hyde article again he will revert again, or carry on his pointy disruption somewhere else. Also, he is a new WP:SPA created in August to disrupt the Barack Obama / Sarah Palin articles and by all appearances a possible WP:SOCK. Wikidemon (talk) 03:09, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

This is example of thuggery, in which wikedemon does not agree with me, so he threaten me with banning with this Sad, you can't win argument here about equality of political bios so you threaten and harass me instead.

This guy is on a power trip and should be stopped.Orangejumpsuit (talk) 03:29, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, my warnings are not helping the situation so I won't issue any more until we deal with it... to avoid inciting an edit war I'm also avoiding reverting the edits (I'll clean it up once we're done).Wikidemon (talk) 03:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Its obvious your "warnings" were just bold face threats, bulling, and harassment. What every you like to call them, the net results is to chill those who disagree with you when your augments not strong enough to stand discussion so you revert to ad homuium, and threats, which you so kindly have cataloged.Orangejumpsuit (talk) 03:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

They are warnings, like the sticker you see on the top rung of your ladder not to stand on it. I cannot stop you, but the warning puts you on notice so that if and when you do get on trouble for your edits it is not without fair warning.Wikidemon (talk) 03:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

What you simply call "Warnings" are in reality uncivil threats and incivility in order to chill the augment and attack me ad humiuim. I presented an augment and you personally attack me. That very uncivil and to have the gaul to say I attacked you.. thats a bold face lie and you know it.Orangejumpsuit (talk) 03:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

This is certainly troubling. I think Orangejumpsuit needs to avoid these sorts of edits which do appear to be clearly about making a point. He directly claims to do so in his edit summaries... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I guess treating all the Political biographies, equally, is not a wikipeidan concept. Should only some Biographies be treated with different in terms of Style, content, and tone??? Or are you against this concept and whikpedia should be war ground where the Left gang should war with the Right gang and the one who has the numbers, admins on their side should win??? does MIGHT make right? Is it the gang that wins get the spoils??? Or, should all protect the fairness of the political bios, not because you like me or hate me or like or hate the subject of the bios but it's the right thing to do? This is the issue I stand on and wikidemon and others like them want it to be a place of political attack and those that stand in the away of this agenda shall be harassed and baned?Orangejumpsuit (talk) 03:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The jumpsuited one has reacted to disagreements on edit questions with incivility; he repeatedly characterizes warnings about inappropriate language as "threats"; etc. His summaries and posts to talk pages display a lack of assumption of good faith and a failure to maintain a neutral point of view on the political topics which seem to be his only interest. --Orange Mike | Talk 03:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Putting words in my mouth is not very nice... The question I am aruging is that all political biographies should be treated equally. If you are against that, then wikipeida is just a bias political blog, with out the value of fairness and balance which all the people of the political biographies deserve. This drama is proof that this may not be the ultimate goal of wikipeida, but only a place where political gang war flourish , un checked and enabled by thos like you... Orangejumpsuit (talk) 03:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

PS to Orangemike, your cheeky "the jumpsuited one" is more poof of incivility and you chilling the agument. Whats good for you is not good for me? oh well? Orangejumpsuit (talk) 04:00, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I think he was trying to clarify he was talking about you, not himself, as your usernames are somewhat similar. \ / (⁂) 04:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I blocked him for 1 week. What I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is that OJS was just released off of another block just a few hours ago and began this editing again. I figured the fact that he started so immediately warranted a longer block. --Smashville 04:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Good block. I endorse it fully. He's just trying to pick fights... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The editor's talk page is an interesting read if you want to see a flame-out. Block is now extended to indefinite. Wikidemon (talk) 21:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I blanked it and protected, per Wikidemon's suggestion...if nothing else, he made a legal threat at the end...can someone stick a template on there...I know there's one, but I can't find it...--Smashville 21:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

{{indef}} on the user page. It is a pretty good flameout. Did he eventually rid wikipedia of its "bios"? Protonk (talk) 00:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

uptight and a bit pugnacious perhaps. But his points were well-taken. On the Henry Hyde page he found at least one blatant example of NPOV. The Obama article is a campaign mailer. The difference between the treatment of Republicans and Democrats here on wiki shows a bias bigtime for the Dems. The Republicans have their scandals amplified while the Democrats have their idealism amplified. I think someone should mentor him in Wiki civility etc, not just block him. We could use one or two more Conservatives on wiki. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The difference between the treatment of Republicans and Democrats here on wiki shows a bias bigtime for the Dems. Uhhuh. You might be interested in Conservapedia. They don't care about NPOV. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 05:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

No, we don't need "one or two more Conservatives on wiki", what we need are honest editors with the ability to be impartial while editing. Cries of "their side is treated better than my side" ring hollow, and false. Tarc (talk) 13:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

really not so hollow if you listen with an open mind. I don't get too involved with politics, but the sense that the pres-elect is messianic is inescapable. You certainly won't get that impression reading the bios of the conservatives, ;) Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Nobody of any serious consideration is calling him a messiah, except the ones on the right who want to mock him. Maybe the public is just excited to get a President who won legitimately. Baseball Bugs 16:50, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Of course not. Most liberals mock religion and particularly Christianity. Perhaps that's why they find it difficult to see that they are approaching this new legitimate president-elect with the same uncritical fervor and support that a Christian might reserve for his messiah. I celebrate the fact that America is mature enough to vote for a "black" man for president; however, I am not uncritical of this particular, inexperienced and singularly unknown man, Barack Obama. For all our sakes, however, I certainly hope for the best. Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

"Most liberals mock religion and particularly Christianity" ? You pretty much invalidate yourself from the discussion with inflammatory BS like that, IMO. Tarc (talk) 04:12, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

So this is resolved, then? Jolly good. Perhaps someone could add a note to that effect. // roux   04:16, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

###### a l k. c o m

I and at least one other editor have had "Have you bookmarked ###### a l k. c o m yet? It's sort of like Wikipeda's refdesk, except it doesn't suck.<!-- ��B8��#� �P�ou��-->" put on our talk page, under the heading "AT," with the edit summary "Reverted vandalism. 932c". Note that I made the HTML comment visible, it is not visible to the naked eye on our talk pages.

Examples: User_talk:Davidwr, User_talk:Genemod

Is there a way to blacklist this text? davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 04:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Here's another I saw . Grsz 04:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

You can try $wgSpamRegex (requires developer intervention), one of the anti-vandalism bots or wait until the abuse filter. MER-C 04:12, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Grsz11: Do you mean another 4, all since undone. These 4 had different edit summaries. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 04:16, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

It showed up on my talk page twice last night.---Balloonman 04:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Got two at my talk page just a couple hours ago. –Juliancolton 04:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep an eye on Misplaced Pages:Open proxy detection - that's where they will show up. MER-C 05:17, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Here was another one, blocked by an admin: Baseball Bugs 08:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I had the dude post twice on mine. :) —Ed 17 17:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

If it, or they, are not already blocked, try posting them to WP:AIV, or take them directly to User:Redvers, who had already blocked a couple of them. Baseball Bugs 17:42, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Resolved – For now anyway - an admin blocked the IP for a week

Resolved – IP blocked 24h for WP:3RR violation--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 06:21, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Resolved – User indef-blocked by Aitias.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 07:36, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Resolved – All cleaned up --Chris 12:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Resolved – Gwen Gale has restored the older history Karanacs (talk) 16:29, 8 December 2008 (UTC).

Resolved – Please see this diff for more information.

l'aquatique || talk 05:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

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