Misplaced Pages

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• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace

From SledDogAC

The information I have added to the webpages is all correct and verifiable. I have provided documentation for what I write, in sharp contrast to AKMask's edits. AKMask doesn't want wikipedia to be neutral. This person has an a pro-Iditarod, pro-musher agenda that he or she only wants the public to know. If wikipedia wants to be held in high regard, it will ban administrators and editors like AKMask who act like dictators to keep facts from being told. I certainly don't deserve to be banned. Here's an example of what I've added and what has been repeatedly deleted by AKMask: (removed due to enormity)

The Rockets

Hello,

I don't know all the rules or procedures of Misplaced Pages, for that I apologize. However I have attempted to edit the page for "The Rockets" with some but not total satisfaction. One of the definitions you have posted reads as follows:

"Crazy Horse (band) — An American rock and roll band which was originally named "The Rockets".

In fact the Crazy Horse band was only one of at least two bands that have used the name the rockets The Detroit band mentioned was probably more well known as "The Rockets" than The crazy horse band was. While Crazy Horse is certainly notable, They used that name for a year or so, The Detroit Rockets used the name for 10+ years. and can still be heard frequently on Detroit FM stations.

The second, as one of your own admins pointed out, was a well known Band from Detroit. They put out 6 albums total, had several songs that charted and were formed by two of the former members of the "Detroit Wheels" Their singer sang for a period with Ted Nugent. They were the opening act for major bands of the period such as Kiss, ZZ Top, amungst many others. They had some but primarily local Detroit sucess with such hits as "Turn Up The Radio", "OH Well", "Takin it back" and others. They deserve more than a "See also, Detroit Wheels" I would be happy to attempt to do them better justice but I'm not sure I would be the best person to do so given my inexperience of WIKI and all the ins and outs, formatting ect. I will probably never find a reply so it may be better to send replies to crider.john@comcast.net

Thanks

See the following links:

http://www.johnny-bee.com/ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Street/2818/ http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=3550 http://madrabbit.net/rockets/

User:Jon Awbrey project spam

1. WP:E!
2. WP:EEE
3. WP:MOPA
4. WP:MOTA

and "Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Joy Of Learning, Inquiry, Exploration" which I have speedied as Nonsense, disruption. User has started at least five projects in the last week Please review this action. and post dissenting views and rationale here - thanks. KillerChihuahua 20:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion all of these projects are inappropriate WP:POV-pushing by Jon. He has a clear agenda - see his extensive postings at Misplaced Pages talk:No original research for which he has been blocked for trolling in the past. I'd suggest taking them all the MfD. Gwernol 20:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought he was supposed to be going. Funny how often people keep editing even after spending weeks trolling (in this case the mailing list) with absurd self-justifying homilies about how they are leaving a project which is surely doomed because it really is everybody else who is wrong. I feel a touch of WP:ROUGE coming on. Guy 21:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering about his long drawn out essay on why he was leaving WP not being fulfilled myself, but a quick check of the Internet Field Guide to Troll Behavior soon clarified things for me. Needless to say, I support your actions wholeheartedly. KillerChihuahua 21:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to say that I believe Jon is edging from the harmless troll zone into the disruptive pain in the arse zone these days; perhaps the time is approaching for the community to forcibly take him at his word, as it were. Well, maybe that's a bit harsh, but we could perhaps community-ban him from project space for a while. Guy 22:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

IMNSHO whatever contributions he may have made are far outweighed by his continual disruption and POV pushing. His editing style everywhere I have seen it is to obfuscate to the point of nonsense; I will support any ban decided by the community up to and including total ban from the project. Alas, I fear that will take the long drawn out route to accomplish, and I have not the time to be of much help if that is the case. KillerChihuahua 23:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a URL for the Internet Field Guide to Troll Behavior? I need to refresh my memory. (And he's Misplaced Pages:WikiLawyering about Misplaced Pages:WikiLawyering. )— Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

My apologies: It is here. KillerChihuahua 00:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I found it, "The Sophist Troll" •Jim62sch• 10:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Guy on this: he's moving to the point where the sheer volume of his POV-pushing and blather threatens to overwhelm several important policy debates including those at WP:NOR and WP:VAIN. I would absolutely support further action against him. Gwernol 23:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe Jon Awbrey may have exhausted the community's patience. I'm not aware of any useful edits he makes, and efforts to discuss the frequency of his posts to policy talk pages (226 posts to NOR talk in just a few weeks) are rebuffed. It's difficult to know what the point of most of his posts are, and he reverts when people try to refactor or move issues to subpages. He engaged in the same behavior on wikiEN-l. It has reached the point with NOR talk that it's impossible to have a sensible discussion because of him. SlimVirgin 00:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Guy as well; since he's said he's leaving we should just help him fulfill his desire in this regard. Jayjg 00:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Jon's had plenty of warnings and opportunities to not disrupt the project and contribute quietly. And he's recently just off a fairly long block for similar activities. There's only so much the community should have to put with, so something more substantial seems to be necessary. FeloniousMonk 02:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Also agree. JoshuaZ 02:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Indefinite block implemented. Gwernol 02:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Jon Awbrey's edits in article space are very beneficial to wikipedia and should be allowed to continue so long they continue to be beneficial. His edits outside article space have indeed exhausted the community's patience. One concern here is that article edits by him as an anon or a new name might be reverted to no good end. I'm sure you guys can work out the details. Thanks. WAS 4.250 05:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually I agree here: although he is disputatious and often includes WP:OR, he also does make sound and valid contributions. I don't have a problme with blocking him while we think about what to do, but I do think that we should do one of the following:

• As a community, ban him from Project space (other than to enter a comment of reasonable length in any debate related to an article on which he is active or has expert knowledge)
• Take the case to ArbCom and ask them to come up with a solution

I am reluctant to trouble ArbCom if there is an unambiguous and obvious consensus to do what we believe ArbCom would do anyway. We could start an RFC, but the idea of an RFC with Jon fills me with horror - we'd need to add more storage to the servers to acommodate all the argumentation and justificaitons why (as always) he is the only one marching in step.

So my reluctance aside, ArbCom may be the best course. Do nothing is not really an option. Guy 11:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Guy, can you give some examples of Jon's good editing in article space? My own preference is the indefinite block, but if we're to limit him only from the project space, it would have to be absolute with no exceptions. If you give him an inch, he'll take a mile and we'll be back where we started. SlimVirgin 11:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see that as well, my experience with him has been on Truth and Truth theory where his editing has been anything but "sound and valid contributions." I understand he contributes to mathmatical articles, are his contributions there improvements? I'm not qualified to judge. KillerChihuahua 11:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I have not checked every edit by JA. However, every edit I have sen (to an article) was trivial, pedantic, or just poorly-worded. I think perhaps he just likesbeing ableto read himselfon the internet. I have seen noevidence of his making positivecontributionsand on tlak pages he has a clear patern of disruption and obfuscation. He makes endless series of comments that make no sense or are so abstracxt that they must be referring to something else though who knows what. The effect of his adding allthis mishmash is so that he can then say "obviously discussion is ongoing so there is no consensus yet; people have to respond to each of my comments before we can say this discussion is over." Killer Chihuahu and others have already pointed out the destructive effects of this tactic. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Evidently my impression of good contributions is the result of insufficient expertise in the subject areas. I now concur with the community ban, especially given the response to said ban. Guy 21:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

In saying "User:Jon Awbrey's edits in article space are very beneficial to wikipedia and should be allowed to continue so long they continue to be beneficial." I was thinking specifically of logic and Charles Peirce related articles (and not to talk pages or other articles) even tho I was also motivated to speak by his article edits in the 24 hours prior to being indef banned (which while beneficial can also be characterized mostly as "trivial, pedantic" as Slrubenstein points out; but in any case should not be reverted. Can anyone claim wikipedia is better off reverting his article edits made in that 24 hour period?). According to his talk page his major edits are at "608 Truth 418 Charles Sanders Peirce 294 Philosophy of mathematics 201 Relation (mathematics) 174 Relation composition 160 Scientific method 123 Pragmatic theory of truth 122 Truth theory 118 Sign relation 104 Logical graph 84 Theory of relations 83 Relation reduction" I can see where he could get himself into trouble on Truth so lets look at his last edits at that article (again, article, not talk):

1. adds {{details|Truth theory}}
2. makes the ref section small as it is supposed to be
3. and reverts vandalizm

His behavior in article space is almost always positive so far as I can see. His behavior in nonarticle space is too disruptive and nonproductive to be tolerated anymore. His intelligence is an asset so long as we can trust him to make positive contributions and in article space he appears to care about his reputation. In talk venues he prefers unproductive behavior (and for those who can't make heads or tails of it; it boils down to "I'm smarter than you; nah nah na nah nah"; which really pushed some people's buttons) when he can't immediately get his way. A total ban throws out the baby with the bathwater. WAS 4.250 02:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't normally say such things, but since JA is being defended as a valid article contributor, I must respectfully disagree. JA drove me away from the Solipsism article I was once interested in due to his heavy-handed demeanor. JA aggressively reverted all changes he did not find to his liking and was a poor communicator on the talk page- longish, detailed requests for information would be answered with an unclear tangent.

Furthermore, his writing was, frankly, crap. JA did have useful thoughts, but he absolutely refused to write well, a rather critical requirement for a WP editor who claims "English at a professional level" in his userbox. JA chose to write in neither an accessible general audience style that Misplaced Pages generally seeks, nor in the precise if occasionally non-obvious statements of a careful philosopher or scientist. Instead, at least to my humble opinion, JA wrote in the pretentious blather of a college student who covers for the fact he didn't actually read the works with a haze of unclear statements. Now, this is just how some people write (and they are bad writers, which is unfortunate when they have insight to communicate), but it's also how good writers can cover for a lack of knowledge. Which was it? Beats me. He seemed smart enough, but I'm still not sure on some of his stances.

Here's a sample of the cutting prose JA has introduced to Misplaced Pages:

Solipsism is sometimes said to be unfalsifiable, but this confuses a question of logic, namely, the logical contingency of the solipsistic thesis by virtue of its logical form, with a question of rhetoric, namely, the practical difficulties of persuading a particular person, with a particular psychological constitution, of the contingency thereof. But the normative science of logic is quite distinct from the descriptive science of psychology, and has nothing to do with the peculiarites of an individual person's thought process.

Aside from this logic being false (at least IMHO- it sets up a bizarre straw man involving pscyhology and persuasion, which was not in the original passage even a little bit), the reasoning given for why this makes any sense is... opaque, at best. Plus, it's presented as fact. This was put right near the top of the article, too.

In fairness, for those who bother to check the Solipsism talk page history, I am not completely blameless either- I restarted the debate two months later after JA had long since stopped responding to my requests for clarification on the talk page with an actual edit to the main page (I'd stopped editing before to try and avoid an edit war), but I hadn't noticed that someone had already come in and mostly cleaned up the writing. Still, my biggest complaint with JA is stylistic; I can deal with opposing viewpoints in an article, and even opposing viewpoints presented as fact, but not obfuscated writing. It took another editor, Mglg, to make clear JA's intentions (I think).

I've seen the occasional JA edit to other articles as well, albeit with less first-hand experience, and I have not been impressed. SnowFire 04:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

He can be obscure. He delights in mindnumbing logical precision. But in reviewing his last edit to the article and most of ita talk page, I don't find that your abouve quote does him justice. the below quote from him on the talk page is perhaps more typical. WAS 4.250 07:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

First off, we agree that psychological arguments are irrelevant. That is just my point. All of the arguments that I've seen for the claim "Solipsism is unfalsifiable" are based on psychological arguments and betray a confusion of — whatever you want to call them — pragmatic, psychological, or rhetorical arguments with logical arguments. But when someone introduces a psychological argument, you have to meet it on those grounds and try to explain how it differs from a logical argument.

Second off, the old statement said "Solipsism is logically coherent, but not falsifiable, so it is not testable by the scientific method". There was nothing about "unknowable", whatever that means, so let's stick to one claim at a time. Terms like "logically coherent" and "falsfiable" do have definitions in logic. Unknowable? — Who knows?

Third off, unfalsifiable is not the same as unprovable or undecidable. Those terms also have definitions in logic and they are not the same concept as unfalsifiable. The typical indefeasible is really just a tautology whose syntactic form makes it difficult to recognize it as a tautology. Many strings of characters are simply not meaningful enough to qualify as a proposition that can be judged true or false. But the name for that is "meaningless", not "unfalsifiable". Jon Awbrey 02:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but what does that show? The claim that solipsism is unfalsifiable is a game. Jon is taking it seriously, and then trying to argue against it, and does so in way that shows he hasn't grasped what it means or understood the meanings of the terms he's using. This is what he did all the time on talk pages, at great length and to Misplaced Pages's detriment. SlimVirgin 07:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree completely. I know SlimVirgin is a model Wikipedian, is an asset to Misplaced Pages, is better able to spot trolls than I can. I also know Jon Awbrey is very bright, focused on logic to the detriment of his ability to interact productively, and worth keeping as an editor of articles if that is possible. And that is not possible given his recent behavior on non-article pages. Enough background. On to solipsism. A debate was had in an amatuer forum (wikipedia) on a complicated philosophical subject that the professsionals disagree about. The subject (solipsism) was not given an agreed on definition. The terms used in the debate (eg falsifiable) were not given agreed on definitions. One party (Jon) assumes the definitions of the terms are the ones used in the logic circles he frequents while his debating partners assume otherwise. Semantic misunderstandings get in the way of adequate communication. I see nothing there that has anything to do with Jon's childish response to being told by people that he was a troll and to just go away because he was trying to revert longstanding text that Jon was able to show was not longstanding at all. Jon's behavior has warrented some kind of severe response. I hope in the end that response does not include his inability to edit article space. WAS 4.250 11:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

If JA was an extremely opinionated sort who occasionally edits in cloudy writing, I wouldn't be here. That would qualify as quite a lot of Wikipedians. My problem is that even on the talk page, he couldn't explain himself very well, even to "Do you think this: Yes/No" type queries.

I wouldn't even call that excerpted statement a particularly enlightening one from JA. He still doesn't make clear his stance; I could have told you before that he thought the claim "Solipsism is unfalsifiable" has to do with psychology, but he doesn't explain why that rather non-obvious statement would be true. The second statement he is picking on the fact that I used a different word once because I was searching for a way to get through to him, and assuming I was changing my stance when I was actually trying to better explain it. The third statement, he never makes clear what definitions he actually is using, and later references Misplaced Pages articles that... support "my" definition? I was confused. It took the other editor mgmg to figure out what definitions JA was using.

For an analogy, a fiercely opinionated conservative posting on the "American conservatism" article is fine. However, they should be able to clearly explain the reasons behind their views and the definitions they use of words- Clinton coddled terror, the Democrats are protectionists and opportunists, "liberal" means "Aggressive mommy state statist" in this usage, etc. Somebody who seemingly takes all conservative positions as pure fact and refuses to explain themselves- or explain themselves, but badly- is very hard to work with on an article, even if they do in fact have wonderful, great reasons behind their edits (and it becomes other editors jobs to figure out what they meant and qualify it properly).

As another comment, Misplaced Pages should be accessible to a general audience when possible. I don't normally invoke WP:OSTRICH, but if I'm having trouble understanding his statements, when I have a fair amount of experience at this kind of thing, what are the chances of random passerby? Philosophy isn't quantum physics. I firmly believe that philosophy, with a grand tradition of being done by amateurs in the streets a la Socrates, can and should be understood by everyone. SnowFire 16:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to comment on the issue at hand, but As another comment, Misplaced Pages should be accessible to a general audience when possible is something I strongly believe in, and is something I believe wikipedia should encourage. Most topics, no matter how obscure, can normally be worded in a manner understandable by a layperson (albeit with a potentially significant increase in length). I applaude you for that statement :) LinaMishima 16:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Some subjects lend themselves to lack of clarity. Physics and math subjects can be unreadable due to necessary prerequisites. Philosophy can be conceptually obscure. Using words that require definitions that have subjective meaning in order to discuss philosophical issues related to subjective experience lends itself to semantic misunderstanding. For example, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy says:

"There is considerable infelicity in Fodor's choice of terms. He is able to offer a cogent account of why methodological individualism counts as a methodological constraint. He argues that the desire to align terminological distinctions with objects having different causal powers is “one which follows simply from the scientist's goal of causal explanation and which, therefore, all scientific taxonomies must obey” (1987, 42). Thus it is a methodological precept. (Although one can see clearly here the stark contrast between Fodor's use of the term and that of Weber or Hayek, for whom the ability of the social scientist to provide something beyond merely causal explanation was what imposed the methodological commitment to the action-theoretic level of analysis.) It is simply unclear why Fodor chooses to call it individualism. With methodological solipsism, on the other hand, one can see why he calls it solipsism, but it is unclear what makes it methodological. Indeed, Fodor goes on to state that “solipsism (construed as prohibiting the relational taxonomy of mental states) is unlike individualism in that it couldn't conceivably follow from any general considerations about scientific goals and practices. ‘Methodological solipsism’ is, in fact, an empirical theory about the mind.”(1987, 43). Thus in Fodor's use of the terms, “methodological individualism” is not really individualistic, and “methodological solipsism” is not really methodological." WAS 4.250 22:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Roman Catholic Church in Great Britain page move

There was a survey being taken at Talk:Roman Catholic Church in Great Britain as to whether the article at Catholicism in Great Britain should be moved to Roman Catholic Church in Great Britain. As it appeared that there would be no consensus for the move, JzG aborted the vote and moved the article to agree with his own previously stated POV. -SynKobiety 02:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

From the talk page the matter appears more complicated than that; please don't bring half-told content disputes here. Mackensen (talk) 02:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I did not intend to be misleading. I was just trying to follow the instruction: Please make your comments concise. Administrators are less likely to read long diatribes. Are administrators exempt from WP:AGF? I brought this issue here because of what appears to me to be an administrators abuse of privilege. Would another unbiased administrator please look into this? -SynKobiety 03:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, the page history is very suggestive. Vaquero100 (talk · contribs) appears to be move-warring. Furthermore, I'm surprised this is an issue at all. Catholic is ambiguous. Roman Catholic is not. Why is this here again? Mackensen (talk) 03:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't bring this here to inquire about an administrator's POV about the content: A survey was being conducted to address that. An administrator chose to abort the vote in progress in order to push his POV (one with which Mackensen apparently agrees). Are administrators given the charter to override users when they disagree with the users? -SynKobiety 03:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

When it comes to matters of common sense and clear factual accuracy, I should imagine they are - that's why the community made them admins. Some catholic churches are seperate from the Roman Catholic Church. If the article is about the Roman Catholic Church and not inclusive of those Catholic churches that do not recognise Rome (and Rome doesn't recognise them!), then there it should remain. Crimsone 04:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

What you believe to be common sense and clear factual accuracy may be seen by others as biased POV, whether or not you are an administrator. That is why a vote was being taken. Is an administrator entitled to ignore a vote in progress and impose his own POV? -SynKobiety 04:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The article was moved unilaterally in a copy-and-paste move. I fixed it. One of the editors involved in the move war states on his User page his agenda the "Defense of the Catholic Church in the use of her name". Do not bring your battles to Misplaced Pages. All other articles on the national RC churches are at Roman (only Canada and Great Britain are out of step with the convention, I started a discussion on moving Great Britain to be consistent with the rest, there is already a discussion at Canada). Voting is evil. The last move created double and triple redirects, most of whicih I think I have also fixed. In other words, I did what an admin is supposed to do: fixed up the mess caused by editors on a mission. Guy 07:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the concept that "naming conventions of pages" is not subject to a vote. Once a norm has been established that should hold sway. Just because "k.d.lang" likes to downcase her name doesn't mean we should. Just because someone decides that the "Catholic church based in Rome" is the only legitimate one, doesn't mean we do. The standard is "Roman Catholic Church of xxx" and that's what should hold. Don't be a scone. Wjhonson 07:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually when it comes to personal names we should depict them the way they want. In fact v/v kd lang, it says right at the top of her page that the first initial of her name is cap'd due to 'technical restrictions' in the Wiki software. The 'l' is lowercase. Anchoress 10:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest a 'move lock' would be appropriate here to stop the POV pushing, and move waring. But since I've already expressed opinions on this issue, I won't be the one to do it. 'Catholic' is a ambiguous/contested title - and it is not NPOV for us to describe one denomination as the Catholic Church. Keep it at Roman Catholic, and note that the denomination in question usually self-designates by the contested title. --Doc 10:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I came here because of a procedural issue, which is exactly the kind of thing where I thought adminstrators should hold sway. What I have found is that there are many administrators who feel that their place is to enforce their own POVs instead of enforcing Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines. There is more consideration about what the policies and guidelines mean among users in the discussion at Talk:Roman Catholic Church than has been exhibited here by administrators. Of course, administrator JzG has shut down a survey being conducted there also. He tells us "voting is evil." WP:NCON says otherwise.

The title I gave this section has now been censored twice. It was originally Administrator JzG aborts vote in process. Please excuse me if that violates some procedure, but show me the guideline it violates. -SynKobiety 01:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I too am concerned by an edit by admin. JzG. In this edit this vote was closed prior the announced closing. It included the comment "Thylacoleo's summary at the end of this section sums it up perfectly. Please note: voting is evil." This to me is not the way admins. usually close debates. JzG was strongly involved in the debate. --WikiCats 13:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to make note of this: Administrator Code of Conduct: Consensus "Misplaced Pages works by consensus. One of the tasks of an admin is to implement that consensus. As such, if a discussion has led to consensus for a certain version or action, an admin should not ignore that to revert to another version or perform the opposite action, if they prefer that for whatever reason." --WikiCats 14:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Travb (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Travb (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) made some pretty hostile comments on an afd earlier today , , , , , , adding personal attacks both in edits and edit summaries. He was blocked , and I suppose he emailed the blocking admin and was unblocked shortly. Travb came to my talkpage to apologize and removed the comments he made on the afd...then, in less than an hour, he saw that rootology (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was in trouble and quickly arrived at arbcom in what appears to be some retalitory effort against me since rootology filed an arbcom case against me that isn't going according to his plan. Would someone have a word with Trab and get him to calm down?--MONGO 19:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I complained about this user and personal attacks earlier and was ignored. I hope this shows admins the natur eof this users behavior, hopefully something is done. --zero faults 21:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Personal attack reports belong at WP:PAIN. I don't see any WP:pain entries in your immediate contrib history. If you consider this to be primarily a personal attack situation would you like it moved to the appropriate place? Crimsone 21:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I consider it to be a disruption issue, and no, I don't want it moved from here.--MONGO 21:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Travb has a long history of disruptive conduct. Kelly Martin (talk) 22:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Unrelatedly, Travb's user page was just vandalized. Thought I'd report that here in case its not actually unrelated. ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 22:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Looking over his edits and especially his edit summaries...he insults an arbcom member, insultingly mocks others comments by quoting them in his edit summaries,, , tests the waters on a proposed ruling that links to encyclopedia dramatica will be removed by adding this...can someone have a word with him and explain that whjile I welcome all comments to the arbcom case, I hardly can see why he needed to show up today for the first time and post over 40, yes forty, mostly harassing comments on the arbcom case.--MONGO 04:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if he just has an explosive temper or what but here is where he called me a liar and other things and threatened to "report me." In the end, he apologized when he realized he was mistaken and I took no further action. I do think he needs a mentor because his reactions to editors is disruptive. Maybe even time away from political articles. --Tbeatty 04:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes right after he called Morton Devonshire a sockpuppet. I mean he does apologize after insulting people, doesnt that make it ok? --zero faults 15:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Travb's response

MONGO (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I was ready to move on and then Mongo filed this ANI

First and foremost, the comments on rootology's userpage which led MONGO to file this ANI was a notification to rootology that I would no longer be editing Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/MONGO/Workshop:

"Anyway, I am unwatching the page, if you need more help, let me know."

I felt like I had made my points, and that continuing to argue with MONGO was more harmful than beneficial. In addition, I know MONGO's past edit history, and his behavior towards others, since we are both interested in politics. (See MONGOs CONDUCT below) I had even predicted:

"I am waiting for you or another admin to start threating me for expressing my opinion. (Remember this sentence--if it doesnt happen, I will admit I am wrong)."

Sure enough, as soon as MONGO saw the opportunity, he called this ANI. I wanted to put this episode behind us, but now MONGO has filed this ANI, "in what appears to be some retalitory effort against me".

My WP:NPA violation

The information about me being blocked is correct. I wrote:

"Keep Notice how the "official" version adovates of 9/11 (most notably MONGO) are voting to delete this article. This is a common tactic they have used repeatedly in an attempt to remove POV which does not conform to the "official" version of 9/11 and their own POV."

My comments violated WP:NPA, and because of my boot history, I was given no warning, and I was immediatly booted. I then emailed the admin, explained the situation, explained my past boot history, told the admin that I would erase all of the comments, and apologize to MONGO. In less than an hour, the admin unbooted me. MONGO had not commented on the WP:NPA violation, but I took the initiative and apologized writing:

"You may never see this edit, but I mentioned your name in a recent AfD you voted on. I removed the offensive comment. My apologies sir, happy editing."

I realized my mistake and retrified it.

Since being booted for WP:NPA, I have asked the admin if my edits on this AfD were okay and ask him to let me know if there was any problems:

Please let me know if I am stepping over the line at: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bob Mcilvaine I am being very careful not to even "skirt" WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. I will stop editing this page if necessary, or change any edits I make.

Mongo's accusations

MONGO wrote:

"...then, in less than an hour, he saw that rootology (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was in trouble and quickly arrived at arbcom in what appears to be some retalitory effort against me since rootology filed an arbcom case against me that isn't going according to his plan."

I explained this in detail to MONGO on MONGO's arbritation page, which I will expand here:

WP:AGF First of all, there is no "retalitory effort against" MONDO. All this is speculation on MONGO's part:

"in what appears to be some retalitory effort against me since rootology filed an arbcom case against me that isn't going according to his plan."

The key word is "appears". Like the allegations on the MONGO arbitration that others have filed against MONGO. MONGO has no evidence supporting his statments. MONGO, please minimize your speculation and WP:AGF.

I got involved with MONGOs arbitration, because rootology messaged me. That is what got me involved with MONGOs arbitration. I have known about MONGOs arbitration for weeks, and added no comments. As mentioned above, MONGO and I have known of each other since I became an editor in October 2005 with WSI. We frequent the same political sites. We also are in contact with the same people. Unfortunatly we have radically different views, which up until this point has never been a problem.

I can't remember running into you until a couple of months ago, if that. Your edit summaries and other details and incessant approach at the arbcom you are not even a signatory was harassment....40 plus edits...out of the blue...sure...you showed up right after you discussed rootology's situation with him.--MONGO 07:32, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Mongo's second set of accusations

Mongo states: Looking over his edits and especially his edit summaries...he insults an arbcom member.

How is quoting a admins wikisite insulting? How is quoting his profession, which is brought up on his own talk page, insulting? I was asking a pointed question about the neutrality of the Arbitration. Your past behavior and inability to work with other wikiusers is written off as "excessive zeal" and other wikiusers, who happen to be your ideological opposites are severly criticized. As I wrote before, all I am asking for is a level playing field from a neutral non-political admin. How is this insulting? For having a rich history of saying some really nasty things to other editors, you seem to take criticism rather badly yourself.

No, I simply don't like it when you show up and try to dsirupt the arbcom because an obvious troll is probably going to be banned. Besides, the manner in which you quoted him and the sneering attitude is simply uncalled for. You go around accusing people like myself of being right wingers and POV pushers...look at yourself.--MONGO 07:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, can I go to bed already? I was just about to finish up, and say: "I will deal User:MONGO's" accusations later. And now this....sigh....I am not a "right winger", I am a definate left winger. I push my POV, but I do it differently then others. Wait, why are we on this subject? Aren't we talking about Fred? FYI, I just apologized to Fred on his user talk page. I hope this helps diffuse the situation. I don't know what this means on my talk page:

"I'm done talking with you...either an Rfc or I'll take this issue to arbcom."

But if you recall, I was finished with the MONDO arbcom, I had told rootology I was going to unwatch the page, and I was willing to let others gather the evidence against you in the MONGO arbcom. Then you initiated this ANI. Why do you continue to threaten me? How does this help to diffuse the situation? IMHO, and please correct me if I am wrong, your tone is very negative and threatening. Travb (talk) 08:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Mongos Conduct

Since Mongo has brought up edit history's and my user behavior, I would like to address MONGOs behavior and where all of this happened today.

This entire grievance happened on MONGOs arbitration page, which several users have brought up because of MONGO past and current behavior and violations of wikipedia policy. The arbitration deals with MONGOs past and current behavior.

MONGOs failure to work with others continued today: Full text here:

1. MONGO: WP:NPA WP:AGF WP:CIVIL "Not once had you posted anything to this arbcom unitl after you saw what was possibly going to happen to rootology...do you think I am blind? Go ahead and start another arbcom if you think I am so bad....quite obviously, this entire thing has been a giant troll-a-rama from the beginning...and your long list of blocks and other disruptive excesses are more than apparent. Bring it on, pal."

I await MONGO's apology for calling me a troll.

1. MONGO: WP:Civil "Frankly, I don't care what you do."
2. MONGO: WP:AGF "Are you insinuating that there is an admin cabal?"
3. MONGO: WP:AGF, WP:Civil "Go look at the evidence page...it's not going to be reposted here. You showed up because your buddy may end up indefinitely banned, and judging by his actions this morning, he hasn't helped his case one bit."

I asked MONGO to state the evidence against User:Badlydrawnjeff and explain what this meant: "No action is taken against MONGO for any excessive zeal he has displayed." When I showed he had no evidence against User:Badlydrawnjeff, and ask him what "excessive zeal" means, MONGO got incredibly hostile, as above. I continual asked MONGO to stay on topic, instead he:

1. WP:AGF Started to accuse me of being rootology's buddy, "You showed up because your buddy may end up indefinitely banned"
2. WP:NPA Started accusing me of being a troll. "quite obviously, this entire thing has been a giant troll-a-rama from the beginning"
3. WP:NPA Started to bring up my past block history "and your long list of blocks and other disruptive excesses are more than apparent"

I asked him repeatedly to stay on topic. He did not.

To defend myself, I followed the converstation and asked him the same questions he was asking me:

1. About his edit history and
2. His association with Fred.

When I realized their was no point in continuing the converstaion, I unwatched the page, and told rootology I would leave. (See #I was ready to move on and then Mongo filed this ANI).

Ha...you're the one counciling rootology, consoling him on his talk page and insulting others in the process...do you see me post anything on Fred Bauders page?--MONGO 07:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Mongos supporters

MONGOs two supporters Tbeatty, Zer0faults, are active editors of Allegations of state terrorism by United States of America. A page which Mongo has actively edited. There has been a ongoing edit war and the case is currently in RfC and a mediator is taking the case, actions which I initiated. I could line up just as many editors to Allegations of state terrorism by United States of America who would support my version of events.

The only other supporter, Kelly Martin, is an admin who I had contact with several months ago. I agreed to no longer discuss the issues that we were discussing. If Kelly Martin would like to reopen this discussion, and give me her blessing to start talking about the issues we were debating about, then I will discuss this issue further.

What? I have made a total of three edits to that article! I was never edit warring there and haven't even editied there in three weeks. I'm not involved in either the mediation or the Rfc on that article.--MONGO 08:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

MONGO, I am simply pointing out Tbeatty, Zer0faults past association with you, and I pointed out that: I could line up just as many editors to Allegations of state terrorism by United States of America who would support my version of events. If you want to go through all of the edits on this wikipage, etc., we can do that. Travb (talk) 08:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe I've edited that article twice, one day apart. Three weeks ago. I would not call myself an active editor. I commented on the talk page I believe but that, too, was weeks ago. I would also not say I have a "relationship" with MONGO though I have seen his edits. My impression is that he was a fair and productive editor. I don't even think you could classify my comment here as supporting MONGO. Rather, I comment on my interaction with you, when you accused another editor falsely of being a sockpuppet. You misinterpreted a diff log and I pointed out where you made a mistake in your interpretation. You called me a liar on more than one occasion on the sock accusation page. You later apologized. That is not supporting MONGO, but pointint out my experience which seems to mirror what we see here. Agressive personal attack followed by passive apology. I believe that your apologies are sincere but your behavior is a pattern and your behavior is disruptive. I do think that you and wikipedia would benefit if you had a mentor and if you refrained from editing articles that invoke a strong emotional response until you understand more about the process and comport your behavior to the process.--Tbeatty 09:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions to resolve this dispute

• Option one: MONGO can file a request for comment on me, if he wishes, this is what he suggested for me to do today against him.
• Option two: I quote:

Personal attack reports belong at WP:PAIN. I don't see any WP:pain entries in your immediate contrib history. If you consider this to be primarily a personal attack situation would you like it moved to the appropriate place? Crimsone 21:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

In which case, I can file a WP:PAIN also. (See #Mongos Conduct above)

Update

Since initiating this ANI User:MONGO has written on my talk page:

WP:Civil Trolling and harassment

WP:NPA WP:AGF You have trolled and added many harassing comments today...I think you are harassing me. If this doesn't end, I will be forced to write up an Rfc on your actions. I have already brought the matter up at AN/I.--MONGO 04:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:AGF...Look at your edit summaries and your commentary ...talk about a complete failure to assume good faith.--MONGO 07:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC) Full comments here My response here

WP:AGF WP:Civil WP:NPA "Are you serious....are you so blind to your editing and edit summaries that you fail to understand that you did nothing but attack me and even an arbcom member? No doubt, you showed up at arbcom to pick a fight immediately after discussing matters with rootology...who spent yesterday attacking numerous wikipedians in the worst way he could....guess what that makes you look like? A supporter of a troll. I'm done talking with you...either an Rfc or I'll take this issue to arbcom." (emphasis my own)

(Please let me finish explaining my side)

Travb (talk) 05:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Comments

How much room here is that going to take...how about you apologize to Fred Bauder for the comments you made about him, and your massive loss of good faith.--MONGO 07:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, is there a word limit here? You have made quite a lot of accusations MONGO. I want to show that many of them have absolutly no merit. I don't want to be booted by an admin for behavior that I never did. (See Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/MONGO/Workshop#Badlydrawnjeff for an example of this behavior.)

"how about you apologize to Fred Bauder for the comments you made about him" See my section about my comments to Fred #Mongo's second set of accusations. If Fred wants me to apologize to him for calling him a lawyer, and pointing out a template on his user page, I will happily apologize. In fact, if it helps difuse the situation, I will apologize to Fred right now.]

On a completly unrelated note (Please see the fallacy of logic: Tu quoque):

I would appreciate you striking out all of your "troll" comments.

"and your massive loss of good faith" WP:AGF "...accusing me of acting in bad faith is not assuming good faith by yourself, pot calling the kettle black and all that.... I would appreciate you striking that part of your comment out with an apology as well." Thanks in advance ;) Travb (talk) 07:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Outside Comment

Oh for God's sake, GIVE IT A REST. --Calton | Talk 08:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, are you an admin? If you are, can you promise that I won't get booted for MONGO's comments today? If you can promise that, I will stop.

MONGO made a lot of accusations, which I personally feel have no merit. I would love to go to bed right now, but I don't want a message on my user page tommorow that I was booted for accusations which I personally feel have no merit.

Sorry to bother you. I didn't initiate this ANI, and I wish it had never been started.

I vaguely remember you Calton, but don't remember were :( Travb (talk) 08:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Then you shouldn't have been harassing and insulting myself and Fred Bauder. If I wasn't having a dispute with you, I'd block you right now for a week at least...your block log definitely seems to indicate that you are a problem.--MONGO 08:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for not blocking him, but in this situation, were I an admin today, I think I would... Needs some time out. Georgewilliamherbert 19:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

To quote Kelly Martin "we do have a lot of petulant children on Misplaced Pages. And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Hopefully Travb stops playing his game MONGO, but just remember its all passive agressive, the idea is to get a response out of you that he can then add more complaints about. --zero faults 08:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely with Calton. Travb, what admin action are you hoping to achieve by this? This is not the forum for you and Mongo to have a private argument. --ajn (talk) 08:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• This is far too lengthy and disjointed for ANI; it needs a better format (e.g. RfC/RfAr) and much better organization. Also, Calton may not be an admin, but his words carry more weight than many users who are admins, as far as I'm concerned. El_C 08:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

RE: what admin action are you hoping to achieve by this?

As I wrote above:

MONGO made a lot of accusations, which I personally feel have no merit. I would love to go to bed right now, but I don't want a message on my user page tommorow that I was booted for accusations which I personally feel have no merit...can you promise that I won't get booted for MONGO's comments today? If you can promise that, I will stop.

RE: what admin action are you hoping to achieve by this? This is not the forum for you and Mongo to have a private argument.

I can't personally speak for MONGO who initiated this ANI today. I agree 100% that this is not the forum. I wish that Mongo had let me move on, unwatch the Arbcom page, and let us go our seperate ways, instead you all have to listen to this ANI. Sorry

I am quitting now. Sorry to bother everyone.Travb (talk) 08:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You sure apologize about alot of things, perhaps you should have never went after MONGO on the Arbcom issue in the first place. --zero faults 08:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I think ArbCom are quite capable themselves of handling any material posted to them. We don't have to worry about that. This whole conversation is a real mess. Let's just stop it at this point, draw a line under it, forget it, AGF, and allow everyone to show their true good intent by not perpetuating it any more and remembering the purpose of this project is to create encyclopedia articles. That purpose seems to get lost at times. Tyrenius 13:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

CBDunkerson loses it

This has been moved to the talk page of WP:LAME. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Note that so moving it is showing a bit of a POV! :) ++Lar: t/c 13:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Moving a discussion having nothing whatsover to do with edit warring to a page about lame edit wars isn't 'POV' so much as just... odd. Especially given that the discussion in question was over until AMiB revived it with the move. The normal course of action would be to simply archive it... which indeed has already been done. --CBD 13:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Well the POV to me (I saw it in a funny way) was saying that the discussion was itself some sort of a war, I guess. Standard archiving seems the best approach to me. ++Lar: t/c 13:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Rory096

Something odd is going on with Rory096 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). If you check his contribution history, he seems to be running a bot to add templates, but then all of a sudden you see these three edits: . It's a very strange looking (at least to me) edit history. There seems to be some past history that I am not aware of. Can somebody look into it? -- Gogo Dodo 04:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

He isn't running a bot, just making many minor edits. The other edits are apparently part of some IRC joke. JoshuaZ 04:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I see. I noticed that Teke just blocked him for 15 minutes. And I did read Rory096's response on his talk page. If this is some joke and admins are involved, I am very disappointed. -- Gogo Dodo 04:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

This isn't a joke that admins are involved in. I saw the tail end of Rory acting batty on IRC and discussing these edits, so I hit his shutoff button that's on his userpage. The block was to calm him down. It can be extended if he continues, no problem. Teke 04:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice if we could get some explanation either here or on IRC for the people who use that method of what is going on here. JoshuaZ 04:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Here would be better than IRC; not everybody uses IRC. -- Gogo Dodo 04:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't either but since this seems to be IRC centered I presume it has a chance of being resolved there. JoshuaZ 04:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Rory was talking about being bored, and then went to do the Cats. Then, randomly, he mentioned his odd edits and in a matter of a minute after looking I went and temp blocked, he said he was going off for a bit. There's really not a whole lot to what happened; it was as quick and confusing on IRC as it was here. As I said I just hit the shutoff once I gathered the pieces that he provided willingly; I invite him to comment further or for another administrator to extend the block if necessary. Teke 05:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

He's just being stupid, and he's keeping it out of the article namespace, so it's not a big deal. Don't make a bigger flap out of this than you have to.--SB | T 05:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

He was making minor edits because he was bored, resulting from a conversation about trolling on IRC. Shadow1 18:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Right, but I have a feeling this isn't about redirect categorization. --Rory096 20:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this is totally unacceptable! Let me suggest that social networking take place on a social networking site. I hear there are many of them to choose from. This is supposed to be an encyclopeida, not a social scene for in which to make "joke" edits out of boredom! There is plenty of realy work to do, and here's a bunch of wasted efforts Pete.Hurd 19:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

This entire thing has been blown completely out of proportion. I made those edits as a joke that affected nothing encyclopaedic. I was in the process of self-reverting when Gogo beat me by a matter of seconds. Nothing malicious happened; my edits were completely harmless. Yes, there's work to do, but that doesn't mean that every editor should be forced to do whatever has to be done every second he's on Misplaced Pages. Might I remind you that editing, especially editing the encyclopaedia portion, is completely voluntary? There's no harm in edits like those that I made- do we ban "vandalboxes" because anyone editing those isn't editing the encyclopaedia itself? That would be silly, because if we weren't allowed to have a bit of fun here, the rate of editors burning out would almost inevitably go up exponentially. --Rory096 20:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The wasted time wasn't yours, it was all the people chasing after you trying to figure out what was going on. They could have been doing other things than playing an unwitting part in your joke. Pete.Hurd 20:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, this has been blown out of proportion. If this was never put on ANI, it would have saved Gogo's time, JoshuaZ's time and your time. As soon as I showed that it wasn't malicious it should have been dropped. --Rory096 21:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

This was a joke, I was on IRC, User:Jasabella said that his userpage redirected to "Bitch", then Rory actually redirected it, thats all. Just a joke no one died, completely over exaggerated--Coasttocoast 22:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Talk about freaking out over nothing. I like the IRC crowd, I spent a lot of time on there. They do this. A block? You've got to be friggen kidding me. Self professed vandalism to a userpage of two people in a joke? That's the sort of thing that shows how our community interacts, keeps level and has fun, an important part of life. Next time this sort of thing comes up, unless someone actually complains, have some fun yourself. Everytime someone reverts take a shot or something. -M 00:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

For those not on IRC like myself, it was not being blown out of proportion. There was no indication that it was a joke until after I asked about it. Look at it from the point of view of not having the information from IRC: User redirects another user's page to "Bitch" with the comment "vandalism". The targeted user has not edited since July 8. How is somebody not on IRC supposed to figure out that it's a joke? Then the same user makes another vandalism edit with references to an infamous vandal and then returns to sign said vandalism. How else am I supposed to interpret this without any information from IRC? -- Gogo Dodo 06:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Gogo Dodo is saying some important things that doesn't seem to be getting through. The subtext of the IRC crowd seems to be "look, if you're not on IRC, then you shouldn't be concerned about apparent vandalism, or bot misbehaviour, just leave it to us, the in-crowd, cuz we know what's really going on". Saying things like "I like the IRC crowd, I spent a lot of time on there. They do this." sends the opposite message, something like "hey, we're just a bunch of clowns who should be kept far away from admin tools". Pete.Hurd 16:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

"I like the IRC crowd, I spent a lot of time on there. They do this." Makes us sound like clowns who shouldn't have admin bits? Wow, and here I thought IRC was a old, respected protocol used to discuss and further many, many collabrative efforts. Hate to see what you'd say for a RfA where the user admitted to playing solitaire once in a while... -M 18:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that under the circumstances it was certainly a good idea to ask me what I was doing. However, once I replied to you and told you it was a joke, there was no need to take it to ANI. --Rory096 18:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Why are we still discussing this? There's nothing more to see or fix. It's a waste of time that could be spent fixing actual problems, as I see it. Luna Santin 18:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to keep adding to the conversation, but I'd like to clarify a few things. First, I think the two admins involved (Teke and JoshuaZ) did a fine job. After they clarified the situation to me, I have no complaints. Second, I put this whole thing on WP:AN/I because at the time, I did not know what you were up to and I thought it would be best to take care of the situation immediately instead of waiting to find out what was going on because you seemed like a bot gone wild to me. While I was typing here, you were replying to me and it was not until after I hit Save did I look at your reply. Finally, I agree that this case is closed. -- Gogo Dodo 00:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Mike18xx personal attacks on living scholars and distortion of other editor's comments

NOTE: Having looked at other sections, I realize that I may have written this in a wrong place. Sorry about that if that is the case.

Mike18xx (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) was reported to ANI before. Now, he is making personal attacks on living scholars and had distorted other editor's comments.

Please have a look at this where he distorts my edit. When user:Itaqallah noted and fixed this vandalism , Mike showed his persistence by this revert and calling Itaqallah's edit as vandalism . But later he self-reverted.

Mike's comments on Bernard Lewis who is a notable living scholar:

• Bernard Lewis is a *hack*

• I consider (Lewis) to be a notorious bonehead...

Mike's comments on Carl Ernst who is another living scholar:

• Carl Ernst is a hack.

Mike's interpretation of wikipedia policies: "Bernard Lewis" is not a reliable source for wikipedia since ,

Mike is not contributing to wikipedia in a civil manner and removes sourced material (e.g. ). --Aminz 09:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been ignored twice before reporting his behavior of which there seems to be a growing consensus that there is a large problem with it. He has been blocked several times before for his personal attacks, incivility, and refusal to accept consensus already.--Jersey Devil 10:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

There has been a certain amount of "complaining" about admins issuing civility warnings. That said, I gave Mike one yesterday and was planning to see if it "took" with an eye for going for a much longer block. I think Mike has a point when he alleges Aminz isn't quite perfect revert war wise but Mike's style of editing (with partial reversion happening in successive edits, with some changes thrown in so the article never returns to exactly the same state) makes it very hard to tell. Personally I think this user isn't going to reform but I could be wrong. However, when I saw his contributions after the warning I gave, including this one, I think the warning didn't take. Blocked for a week. This time. ++Lar: t/c 11:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, Jersey Devil... I'm not sure you're being ignored. I've been keeping an eye on this user for some time, periodically. It's just a hard case to come to grips with. This user is, in my view, fairly skilled at skirting the line. ++Lar: t/c 13:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you kind sir. (This is me JD posting from uni)--128.6.205.109 17:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Edited initial post ONLY to add more information on user (block log, contribs etc) ++Lar: t/c 13:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Indef blocking of meatpuppets

This section covers materials related to the issued raised in the section above.

The following is crossposted from User talk:CBDunkerson#Hauke/User talk:Ezhiki#Hauke:
Hi, Conrad! Regarding this, could you, please, refer me to the appropriate page? I am having trouble locating the RFCU you mentioned. Thanks!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 12:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Ezhiki. See Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Tobias_Conradi and particularly this edit where Pschemp acknowledged that they were separate individuals and this where Essjay closed the request with the conclusion that was the case. Pschemp has subsequently argued that 'maybe they really ARE sockpuppets', but if she wanted to make such a case she should have pressed for the checkuser to be fully reviewed rather than saying there that they weren't sockpuppets... and then turning around and saying 'yes they are' after short-circuiting the process for determining that. --CBD 13:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

*That* RFCU, eh? I was under impression there was another one. Since there isn't, and the results of this one are pretty clear, I'll be unblocking both accounts—there is no good reason to permablock two innocent individuals, although I very much doubt they are going to return to editing after such a nice welcome we gave them. Thanks, Conrad.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Note that as I understand policy,if users are acting like sock or meatpuppets (or acting like the same user) it doesn't matter *what( the CU results are, if the action is circumventing a block, the other users are blockable as well. I think this unblock was incorrect. Please bring this to AN/I so consensus can be sought. ++Lar: t/c 14:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

As Lar requested, I am posting this here for everyone to review. Regarding the situation at hand, please note the following:

• Both users Hauke and Chrisjj2 were permablocked as sockpuppets of Tobias Conradi. As the links provided by CBD above attest, the person who requested the CU agreed that the accounts were not sockpuppets, but meatpuppets.
• According to WP:SOCK#Meatpuppets, the meatpuppets issue occurs when multiple individuals create brand new accounts specifically to participate in, or influence, a particular vote or area of discussion.
• A look at Hauke's and Chrisjj2's contributions is sufficient to see that neither user specifically participated in or influenced a particular vote or area of discussion, hence they don't meet the sockpuppet/meatpuppet criteria.
• By Lar's logic above (if users are acting like sock or meatpuppets... it doesn't matter *what( the CU results are... the other users are blockable as well), as applied to the edits of users in question, if I were to edit tango-related articles around the time of Tobias's block, I would have been blockable as well, because, even though I am not him, I am a friend of his, am associated with him, and would be acting like him (by editing the articles on the same topic he is interested in).
• According to Lar, the purpose of these two users' edits were to circumvent Tobias's block. I find this accusation a bit strange considering the nature of the contributions of said users. Furthermore, as these users were clearly identified not to be Tobias by the RFCU, the sockpuppetry allegation is inapplicable.

That said, I would certainly appeciate a review of my actions (i.e., unblocking the accounts of both Hauke and Chrisjj2) by the community of administrators.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

A look at their contributions shows and . New users don't start talking about some random "User:Tobias Conradi" who they've never encountered before and have no reason to have any knowledge of, on RFPP citing semi-protect policy no less. If not sockpuppets of User:Tobias Conradi, they are at least sockpuppets of someone who is circumventing something. —Centrx→talk • 16:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

These two users are friends of Tobias; no one ever denied that. Both edited Misplaced Pages in the past anonymously. Chris was asked by Tobias to ask the questions he asked, because Tobias was blocked and his talk page was protected (in my view, injustly, but why and how that happened is not the topic of this particular thread), leaving him no other means of communications. Is asking a question on someone's behalf a crime now somehow? How can you say that Chrisjj2's account was created with one agenda (a quote from WP:SOCK#Meatpuppets) if only a few hours passed between the first edit from this account and the permablock? What happened to AGF? Innocent until proved guilty? What kind of harm was done when the question was asked? What's more important, why insist on keeping the permablock now? What purpose would it serve? In what way would it benefit Misplaced Pages?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your thorough writeup Ëzhiki While I think we can't tar with the meatpuppet brush TOO broadly, (or else all people that ever edit bridge articles are meatpuppets of each other!) Tobias has said these are personal friends of his, and they turned up during rather suspicious times. SO I think the block was a good one and the meatpuppet charge warranted.

THAT said, the desired outcome here is that we get constructive edits from peacable users... how exactly that happens isn't the main thing. so with this now well documented, I'm not as sussed, although I still think it wasn't a warranted unblock. (Rather, I'd posit it as evidence of CBD taking the wrong side again) BUT... I just want to put in that if either of these users increases frequency of edits primarily while Tobias is blocked, as they did in the past, and aren't around much the rest of the time, or if they are editing basically to do things related to Tobias while he's blocked, I will not hesitate to reblock. On the other hand if they edit constructively they have nothing to worry about. ++Lar: t/c 16:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Given that the RFCU discussion linked above found, "everyone involved is of the opinion that these are different people" I don't see grounds for a sock-puppet accusation. Lar suggests that 'meatpuppets may also be indef blocked', but that is not actually how the policy reads... what it allows is that if there is confusion as to whether someone is a 'sock' vs 'meat' puppet then they may be blocked. However, we cannot just block a known 'meat puppet' indefinitely... if a blocked user were to ask me to make a comment to an AfD discussion for them and I did so I would be 'acting as a meat puppet' on their behalf... but so long as I identified the source of the view and why they didn't give it themself I can't imagine that being a 'blockable offense' at all. In this case another person spoke in defense of the user while they were blocked and their talk page protected... if that was a 'sock' then it should be indefinitely blocked. But a 'meat' puppet doing the same should not be... and as even the original complainant/blocker at the time acknowledged that this account WAS a different person this seems like a proper unblock to me - indeed I had asked Pschemp to reverse it and was considering doing so myself. --CBD 16:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Lar, if, after unblocking, they start editing basically to do things related to Tobias while he's blocked, I will be the first to re-block them. You have my word for it. Least of all I am willing to stand for people only to be proved a fool by them later.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:50, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Just a point. The checkuser did not prove that these users were not sockpuppets. It simply didn't prove that they were. It's perfectly fine, in my personal opinion, to apply the rule that if all of an account's edits look like sockpuppet edits, they probably are. Nandesuka 16:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Put more succinctly: if you edit like a sockpuppet, don't be surprised when you are treated like one. Nandesuka 16:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It was denied, innocent to proven guilty? Assume good faith ... Anyway since there is no voting and the edit to tango wasnt one in contention and the other user did a seperate action by asking a question for a real life friend, I am not sure what harm was done. Perhaps unblocking the question asker will give him a moment to edit. --zero faults 16:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Innocent until proven guilty makes sense when the cost of error, e.g. putting an innocent person in prison, is high. The greatest cost in this case is possibly discouraging persons who could be productive future contributors, which is less likely in this case if they were created accounts only because they were summoned to defend their friend. But they are still free to become productive contributors, at most they couldn't edit for 24 hours and lost their favorite nicknames. And the fact remains that, if not all having the same IP, they could all be the same person using various shell accounts. —Centrx→talk • 21:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Nandesuka, I sincerely hope this same line of reasoning is not applied to you if you ever have an unfortune of landing in court in real life (which I by no means want to happen to you). I can partially justify your logic as applied to Misplaced Pages, but refusing a review of a situation post factum is something no good admin can afford. Other than that, the question at hand is not "what should have been done", but rather "should we give two decent people another chance to edit Misplaced Pages after what may have been a mistake".—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:50, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The checkuser was denied because EVERYONE involved agreed that they were not sockpuppets. Let that sink in. Everyone. The admin with checkuser privileges, the accused puppetteer, and even the person who originally made the accusation all agreed that they were not sock puppets. If that's not good enough... oi! --CBD 16:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure. But that's not the point. The point is that they are alleged to be acting like meatpuppets, or were, and doing things solely (or mostly, a little positive contribution sprinkled in to make it look good...) to aid Tobias in circumvention of a block. SO I supported their block at the time, and still think it was a good block but I'm willing to now suspend my thinking and go back to assuming good faith. For now. ++Lar: t/c 17:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Lar, you've just pretty much voiced a good chunk of my point of view. Considering the limited information available and emotions running high at the time of the block, the block was within the limits of policies—the users were blocked as alleged sockpuppets/meatpuppets. However, considering the information that came into light later and the nature of these users' contributions (as described above), it should be pretty clear that the block was only marginally justified, and should not have been (kept) indefinite. If we agree on that, I propose to close this thread for good, leave both Hauke and Chrisjj2 alone, and give them a chance to participate in this fine encyclopedia project where we are having so much fun. I stand by that my unblocking them was justified and the right thing to do. I stand by that the users should be re-blocked if all they do from this point onward is to continue serving as Tobias's meatpuppets. If you disagree with my actions and my line of thinking, I invite you to explain in details (preferrably at my talk page) why I am wrong and what I should have done instead.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:01, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the legal system, not the court of public opinion. Furthermore, since admins are judge, jury, and executioner, the concept is effectively meaningless. Arbcom has upheld the principle that users who edit in a manner indistinguisable from other users may be held to the same restrictions regardless of actual IP-based sockpuppetry. After all, the use of (now blocked) open proxies can make edit tracking a tricky proposition. Mackensen (talk) 21:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Chrisjj2 has noted edited in the same manner as the other two and 1 only shares one article in common. Considering he admits to being friends with someone else, I dont think its very odd they may share an interest. --zero faults 01:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

If Hauke isn't a sock/meatpuppet then why did he suddenly spring to life after 3 months of inactivity exactly one hour after Tobias was blocked and request to be unblocked in the same grammar style as Tobias? pschemp | talk 00:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

People who live in the same country often speak the same, I am not sure, perhaps I am missing something, but they admit to knowing eachother. If the account went active and he made an edit, a good edit, not vandalism to an article for a friend with an account he already had, its not really meat/sock puppetry. Also I guess noone is arguing that Chriss should remained blocked then since he didnt make an article edit. --zero faults 01:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Hauke's IP is in a different country than Tobias's. One that speaks English. As for Chris, he sent me an email way back when this happened saying he had a dynamic IP, that he only edited to help Tobias and he didn't care if the account was blocked. pschemp | talk 04:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

posting racist quotes

User 70.16.248.128 is repeatedly posting accurate racist quotations in the Lyndon B. Johnson article regardless of the efforts of the other editors. He has violated the 3R rule. But it's more serious--putting nasty racist remarks in a highly visible article should be off-limits. It humiliates black and Hispanic kids and degrades Wiki. The quotations--accurate--were selected by 70.16.248.128 because he thinks LBJ's crudity has to be exposed. Rjensen 17:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Wait - I'm confused - if they are accurate, why should they not be there? --Charlesknight 17:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked the user for a clear 3RR violation. However I have to say, the quotes are well sourced and if they are accurate they can be included in the article. I am also going to block User:Libs23 for 3RR. This needs to be discussed on the talk page of the article by all sides in this dispute. Gwernol 17:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

as someone who has not edited the discussion, I have started a discussion on the talkpage and will attempt to bring parties together. --Charlesknight 17:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that Charles. I hope that will move the matter forward (I have also not been involved in the Lyndon Johnson article in the past). Neither side in this particular dispute comes off well and they both need to talk to each other. Hopefully your intervention will help. Thanks, Gwernol 17:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Wiki needs a policy on hate speech--in this case quoting the hate speech of dead politicians in order to ridicule minorities in 2006. use of Wiki to post hate speech should be off limits, The quotations were selected from many thousands by one person (User 70.16.248.128) (that is OR) for the purpose of "exposing" Johnson's racism. The editor did not put it in context and does not use any of the many expert studies that have analyzed LBJ's language and his attitude toward blacks and hispanics. (The editor involved is very poorly informed about black voting, so he clearly has not beed reading.) For example the transcripts use "nigra" which most readers will read (incorrectly) as "nigger". Rjensen 17:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a discuss now better suited to the article page, can I suggest that we continue there (although I might be awhile as it's friday night and I'm off to the pub for a bit). --Charlesknight 17:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure LBJ wasn't saying "Negro," and it sounds like "nigra" because of his accent? LBJ was the last President to make use of the term "Negro" to refer to black persons in the US. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 03:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Sysop restores vandal glorification pages

I'm wondering why Ryan Delaney (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) took it upon himself to restore a bunch of the vandal glorification pages. All of these were dealing with obvious vandalism, which doesn't need to be tracked or glorified, simply reverted, ignored, and the vandal blocked. The principles of WP:DENY strongly support this. In this past week we've seen CheckUser evidence that one of our glorified vandals, Mr. Bobby Willy, was himself operating sock accounts and contributing to a lot of the long term abuse pages. He'd vandalize with one sock then add it to his glorification page to the other. And then once it was deleted he posted complaining messages to ANI saying about how he was going to quit because the game "wasn't fun anymore". So why are we giving him back his vandal page? I recommend the immediate re-deletion of these pages. --Cyde Weys 17:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I restored them because, after asking on the talk page of WP:DENY for evidence that shows that these pages encourage vandalism, I didn't get any. I did get some personal attacks however. I'm interested in being shown wrong here (really!), and I'm definitely interested in finding some compromise, but in absence of productive discussion I have no choice but to do what I think is right. --Ryan Delaney 17:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Hardly anyone reads that talk page, I imagine. And of course you "have a choice"; you can "do what you think is right", or you can go to a wider venue to discover that lots of people disagree with you. One of them is, basically, wheel warring; are you sure you want to be doing that? --jpgordon 17:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You didn't talk to me. Standard admin courtesy says that you talk with the admin first before reversing an admin action. I don't think I've ever read the talk page of WP:DENY. So why would you comment there rather on my talk page? --Cyde Weys 17:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

And can you give me specific links to where exactly on Misplaced Pages talk:Deny recognition you proposed to undelete these vandalism pages, and show me the personal attacks you got as a response? --Cyde Weys 17:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, this comment by Tony Sidaway was somehow perceived by Ryan Delaney as some sort of "personal issue", and he felt that was grounds to cut off the discussion and just go undelete all of the pages. I'm just not seeing it. --Cyde Weys 18:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I note you also restored a page which was deleted via MFD, and a couple of redirects which would also be deleted as a result of that MFD, reading the page it appears you have taken exception to one persons comments and had a knee jerk reaction, indeed declaring that you would no longer participate minutes before enacting the recreations. --pgk 17:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm incredulous at the reasoning employed here. Volumes of discussion on this question have been filled on this noticeboard, at MfD, DRV, and various other locations. Mackensen (talk) 17:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I support Ryan he has my consensus for restoring the pages, I just wanted you to know that. Lapinmies 18:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you endorse using sysop tools as a retaliation for a perceived personal attack, though? --Cyde Weys 18:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

A consensus of one? Did you mean to phrase it that way? Mackensen (talk) 19:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

"...and I am unanimous in that." --jpgordon 01:36, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Undeleting the vandal pages was not a good decision. Discussions here (and at MfD) on a number of occasions were supportive of having the vandal pages deleted. Agree with deleting the lot again -- Samir धर्म 19:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC) Restoring those pages was unwise. There is a consensus that these pages need to go. Undoing Cyde's action without first discussing it would be wrong in any case. Tom Harrison 19:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• Deleting all of them again would be a good idea, given that the restoration went against AfD in one instance and in all instances is against WP:DENY and the best interests of the project. I find Ryan's decision to undelete extremely unfortunate given that it goes against a number of other admin actions without significant efforts to talk to them first. --Improv 19:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
• Though I am not going to walk around calling everyone's judgement "unfortunate", I don't feel we need these pages at all, especially considering WP:DENY.Voice-of-All 19:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought this was already discussed on MfD. We have seen evidence that it is working, from an earlier thread on this page that "Mr. Pelican Shit" was promising to stop if he got his page back, and a lot more. Please let them stay deleted. Grandmasterka 21:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I already undid one of the restorations, which was on a page that was deleted with a valid MFD. Curiously, the last version of that page even had {{mfd}} on it, which Ryan then removed. Thus, he had to have known that it already had an MFD ... and then restored it anyway. --Cyde Weys 22:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

What is the real issue here? Is it the restoration of the glorification pages or the wheel warring? These are two separate issues that require separate responses. Isopropyl 22:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It is a non-issue. Ryan made an error in reversing administrator actions without asking around first. This was rash and impolite, but easily fixed: the pages are now deleted again, in accordance with the standing community decision, and should remain so unless some further discussion results in their being labeled useful. — Dan | talk 22:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

What community decision? Many admins are against this so calling it a community decision is wrong. Lapinmies 07:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Request intervention on inappropriate Usernames

I am concerned with some Usernames that seem to be clear variations of my own Username. Because I am the party directly interested, I will not affect any action on this myself. I would, however, request that other Administrators look into it, as I believe it may be grounds for blocking, unless a Username change is requested voluntarily by the owners, under our current Blocking policy (Usernames → ...deliberately confusing...). Although some of them are inactive, I would say that it would still represent a liability. Here's the list:

• Redux! (talk · contribs) — inactive
• Redux S.R.S (talk · contribs) — inactive
• Redux78 (talk · contribs) — one edit
• Reduxed (talk · contribs) — two edits, plus inflamatory statement in user page
• Reduxx (talk · contribs) — 21 edits

Borderline (those are also close, but the variation may be distinctive enough – I'll leave the call to another admin):

• Reduxthree (talk · contribs) — 8 edits
• Reduxtion (talk · contribs) — 26 edits

Thank you in advance. Redux 20:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Some of the names have been blocked, but I am leaving Redux S.R.S alone. VoiceofAll is also blocking some of them. User:Zscout370 20:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Zach. And thanks to VoA too! I appreciate it. Redux 02:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Dasondas POV-pushing edits/personal attacks

in Circumcision and Genital modification and mutilation - personal attacks at http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ALordkazan&diff=74547340&oldid=74186332 and http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AGenital_modification_and_mutilation&diff=74453398&oldid=74451415

I haven't reverted his latest vandalism because It could be seen as a content dispute. I consider it vandalism because he's blanking information and altering it in full knowledge that he is violating NPOV rules and has blasted anyone who disagrees with him as "a bigot" or a "symapthizer of a fringe group" or "ignorant of the religious significance" (even though I - who am an antireligious atheist have told him that I am in no way opposed to him volunarily getting himself circed and asked the rhetorical question that "would not voluntary circumcision when one is old enough to consent not be more religiously meaningful?") - i'm tired of his POV-pushing and his personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with him Lordkazan 21:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I would guess that you are trying to point out disruptive beaviour (?), because I've already issued npa2 for the personal attacks as per your WP:PAIN report (good faith note for the future; You may like to issue warning templates to the required level (as long as you can justify them) rpior to listing on the noticeboards :) --Crimsone 21:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm probably blind, but I never good find the list of the NPA violation templates :P, and yes he's being disruptived - another user pointed out to me what he's changing in Circumcision may qualify for removal under wikipedia rules, but I know (From his previous behavior and statements) that is not why he's removing them. I've been trying my damnest to try and get Circucmsion to be less POV - right now it's very pro-circ POV and he's adding more pro-pov to it. I'm getting really frustrated with the bunch of editors squatting that page, and the edit history will show that I'm not the first circ opponant to come in and try and make the article balanced and get fed up with several regulars preventing the article from being made neutral Lordkazan 21:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You might want to check out {{npa2}}, {{npa4-n}}, etc. Isopropyl 22:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I protected the article to break the ongoing edit war. Please note that the reporter of "POV-pushing edits/personal attacks" is far from being innocent here: May I suggest all parties to please tone it down, WP is not a place for political/anti/religious activism. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens 22:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I keep my POV comments to the talk pages and try to keep wikipedia NPOV thank you very much. 12.226.237.65 01:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC) (oops that was me, wasn't logged in Lordkazan 01:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC) )

I agree with that action. From the message I just recieved on my talk page, I'd say that there is quite a heated dispute here where all parties need to calm down. In the interests of accuracy and fairness, I was just informed that, Lordkazan has also launched a vicious attack or two in the other direction, but I am yet to see a diff for these. In any case, I've said this purely to comment on possible conduct - personal attack reports and diffs really belong at WP:PAIN. --Crimsone 18:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Further to the above comment, I've looked at this dispute in some depth now, as has somebody else. I have spent a truly rediculous amount of time on this, and have proposed a solution at User_talk:Dasondas. Failing this, I would suggest that arbitration is the next step. --Crimsone 18:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Misuse of policy template for questionable proposed policy

A proposed policy, and yet in userspace: User:Kelly_Martin/Policy_council. When the template has been removed by three consecutive editors, Kelly has replaced it each time.

Kelly having a history of unilateralism when it comes to policy since wikimania, the proposed policy is alarming enough on it's own, seeking to limit who creates policy and how policy is amended, while being drafted in userspace away from an unsuspecting community and proper community input, but it gets worse when one considers that recent IRC discussion on this topic at #wikipedia Kelly proposed that all policy needs to determined by a small group of policy makers in face-to-face meetings funded by the foundation, and away from the community and its' input, led by Kelly Martin and Kim Bruning. Viewed in this light, Kelly ignoring calls for this proposed policy to be placed in the Misplaced Pages namespace, then edit warring to keep its' proposed policy template while hidden away from community review is simply unacceptable. I'd like to hear what regulars here have to say about this before I try to remove the template again. Thanks. FeloniousMonk 23:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Kelly should not edit war, even in her userspace- this cannot simultaneously be a proposal AND a page that only she can edit. However, I don't see that what namespace it's in is a big deal. Discussions of the merits of this (IMO appalling) proposal belong elsewhere, of course. Friday (talk) 23:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems a somewhat pointless edit war. If this proposal is to be put before the community, then it'll obviously need to be publicized, so there's no problem with letting it sit in her userspace for the time being. Conversely, if this were to be a fait accompli from the WMF, the location of the proposal wouldn't matter in the least—so there's still no problem with leaving it in userspace. Kirill Lokshin 23:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. The Land 23:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of where it is, it needs to be discussed and other people have to be allowed to edit it, so I suggest that Kelly moves it to project space so that a discussion can begin. The Foundation would presumably want to know the strength of feeling about it, Kirill, if they were to involve themselves in any way, so that's why it needs to be in project space, or at least publicized and open for editing. SlimVirgin 23:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

If it were a fait accompli from the WMF, community participation would not be an issue. It's a fait accompli from Ms. Martin that I'm concerned about. FeloniousMonk 23:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Considering the level of community involvement being proposed—elections, WMF support, that sort of thing—I think that concerns about this being imposed by any single individual are somewhat far-fetched. (At the very least, there would need to be enough support from the stewards to get rid of the dissenting admins! ;-) Kirill Lokshin 23:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh for heaven's sake. Please stop removing the "proposed" tag from what is, wherever it may be in Misplaced Pages's namespaces, clearly a policy proposal. This is an utterly ridiculous and petty little squabble. --Tony Sidaway 23:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm about as worried about all this as I am an invasion of Michigan's Upper Peninsuala by Canada. People work up policy ideas in their userspace all the time. The assumptions of bad faith flying around here are staggering. Mackensen (talk) 23:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• So what exactly is the problem with people being reminded that "This page is a proposed Misplaced Pages policy, guideline, or process. The proposal may still be in development, under discussion, or in the process of gathering consensus for adoption. References or links to this page should not describe it as "policy""? Demiurge 23:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Nothing whatsoever. I'm in favor of it being marked as such. Mackensen (talk) 23:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Talk about a tempest in a teakettle. It's a subpage of Kelly's userspace. What does it matter whether it's labelled a proposed policy or not? Stop reverting Kelly in her userspace. --Cyde Weys 23:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The policy template is not being misused, so it should be left alone. There is nothing wrong with her drafting a proposed policy in her userspace. If you think the policy itself is questionable, then question it. Mexcellent 00:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Response

I'm still very confused about all this. This is a policy proposal under development. The {{proposal}} tag specifically covers this possibility. I really can't come up with a rational reason for the passionate insistence that it is wrong for a draft page in user space to have the {{proposal}} tag. And given some of the comments above, I find it extraordinarily hard to assume that the objections being levied at the mere existence of this proposal are truly offered in good faith -- especially the charges of "unilateralism" and of attempting to engineer a personal "fait accompli" for a proposal that would create a majority-elected body whose principal function is to recommend policy to the community. I did say that I would seek to get Kim Bruning drafted to the council.

I've already told the people who are so vehemently objecting to it being in user space that they can move it. Radiant! removed the tag in what appears to be me to have been "good faith" because it appeared to have been "stale". He was mistaken, however, and I reinstated the tag and solicited preliminary comment from a variety of people. Some of those comments have been fruitful (thanks, Alison), and have led to what I think is a better proposal. However, I was not quite ready to take it fully "public"; I should think that that should be a choice I get to make (but apparently not). So, I invite anyone who feels that this proposal should be debated in full now, before I've decided to move it for discussion, is free to move it to an appropriate page in Misplaced Pages: space.

Oh, and FeloniousMonk, this proposal in no way limits how policy may be created or changed. I suggest you reread the proposal, as you are clearly mistaken about that. Kelly Martin (talk) 00:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I see no issues with why {{proposal}} should'nt be used in the user namespace. El_C 00:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

But isn't there an issue with an edit (which Kelly later says seems to have been a "good faith" edit) being reverted with the edit summary "kindly stay out of my userspace" when the page is described as a proposed policy? AnnH ♫ 01:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. The editor in question is quite capable of negotiating on this with Kelly. There's no need to bring every piddling little spat to this forum, which is already groaning with serious problems requiring actual administrator attention. --Tony Sidaway 01:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yup, if I wasn't assuming good faith, I'd say this sounds a lot like a 'let's get Kelly for this' thread. --Doc 01:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Kelly protests that she does not understand why people are upset, and she, and many others, present this as a conflict over the placement of a proposed policy tag. These people are missing the point. What is at stake here is very simple - the degree to which transparency and equal participation are core values at Misplaced Pages. Like many others, I believe that Misplaced Pages is first and foremost an encyclopedia, and a semi-anarchic wiki-community second. Nevertheless, it is our being a semi-anarchic wiki-community that distinguishes this from all other encyclopedias. And participation and transparency are essential to the integrity of the wiki-community. This is the issue. I and many others feel that Kelly's proposal would represent a major move away from these values by creating a small, institutionalized group with excessive power. Many of us feel that there should be some limits to editing policy pages, but placing them in the hands of a small group goes against the essense of Misplaced Pages. I and others like JoshuaZ have stated these objections (politely, I believe) on the proposed policy talk page. But the problem goes deeper. The way in which Kelly has forwarded this proposal is emblematic of the thing I and others so dislike about the policy - by placing it in her namespace rather than a wikispace, she is suggesting ownership of the space in which the discussion of the policy is to take place. I think this is why so many people felt that it was inappropriate to designate this as an official proposal as long as it was in her userspace. No one has advocated any kind of censorship - simply the position that if it is in her userspace it should not be considered an official poroposal yet, and if she is ready to make it an offical proposal it should be moved to a Misplaced Pages space. I suggest that people care about this so much is not because the placement of a tag is such a big deal, but rather it served as a metaphor, a symptom, of the greater issue, to what extent is does wikipedia belong to everyone or just a few. The way Kelly responded to these concerns just confirms the validity of these concerns - she was dismissive of any criticism or request to handle it a little differently. Again, this is the opposite of the wikipedia spirit where no one owns an article or a policy, and people should deal with one another in good faith in order to facilitate the collaborative process of wikipedia. Kelly's actions suggest a disregard for these values. Someone has criticized SlimVirgin for bringing up an IRC conversation, but in fact this IRC conversation once again illustrated the danger in Kelly's approach, because the IRC conversation lacks the ease of access and transparency of a discussion on a talk page. Kelly told me that she had not been keeping the proposal a secret and has been discussing it for nearly amonth. Really? How many people have been participating in this discussion? Where is it? If you look at the talk page of the proposed policy, which is where all this discussion ought to take place, more than half of the discussion is from today, not from the past four weeks. Hardly evidence of a transparent process and a discussion over policy with broad participation. This is the issue, folks, not whether a tag belongs on the page or not, that is just symbolic of the real issue, which is Kelly's disregard for the transparency and participatory and inclusive ideals of the wikicommunity, ideas her very proposal would subvert. As our community grows we increasingly face two challenges, the increased incidence of vandalism and trolls on the one hand, and new efforts to create more bureaucracy and a less open process and concentrated contol in the hands of a few. The former is a real problem, but the latter is not the solution / it is an equally dangerous problem Slrubenstein | Talk 03:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Right, so who decides precisely when we stop being transparent. If I work out a policy idea in my head, is that too far? What if I transfer it to paper and solicit ideas from several friends who are Wikipedians, am I going to get my own thread where everyone accuses me of sneaking behind their back? The fact is, it doesn't matter what state the policy/guideline is in, the community can comment and make changes when they get a hold of it. Shell 04:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

SlR, I agree with much of what you say, but I think in this particular case, the proposal draft will have to be proposed on the project page at some point, anyway. At that point, equale participation can commence. We don't have tags for unofficial proposals, so I don't see any harm in it being listed as a proposal. It will __not__ be ratified, however, as policy straight from her userpage and onto the project page (!). It will undergo the same length of discussion on the project page as any other proposal, even if there is an influx of support from those comfortable enough to edit her userspace (and I am not among them). El_C 04:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Incredible. I would never have guessed that by creating a policy proposal draft in plain sight in my user space, I exhibited "disregard for the transparency and participatory and inclusive ideals of the wikicommunity". I had no idea that drafting proposals in the plain light of day was so subversive. I shall endeavor in the future that I am more careful to ensure that any proposals I might make are drafted entirely in private and discussed solely through backchannels, lest I find myself acting in a manner that does not further transparency, broad participation, or inclusiveness. Kelly Martin (talk) 04:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, you are not being shown sufficient good faith. You placed it in the category, which leaves it open to review and editing by interested parties; it appears that you attempted to make changes to the article based on others' feedback, which is in keeping with the wiki spirit. I am fairly confident that, if someone made a productive content-related edit, you would have allowed the edit to stand. Bear in mind, however, that making a claim on something in your userspace that is, in theory, being brought to the notice of the community through the proposed policy/guideline/whatever category was not likely to make many fans; I don't think you meant "stay out of my userspace" quite the way it's being taken, but for various reasons certain segments of the community are not willing to assume as much good faith as one might wish. But really, as long as you're willing to foster discussion on the talk page and consider useful edits to the policy, I think people should just chill a little. I also hope that you were being sarcastic about moving proposal drafts off-wiki; that would be a sad end to this little tale. Captainktainer * Talk 07:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

AGF is not suicide. Kelly has, in fact, acted with disdain, lack of transperency, and unpredictability toward established editors fairly recently, so the concern that she will attempt to do something ... shall we say unexpected with the draft on account of it being a {{proposal}}, is not entirely unreasonable. While I, myself, do not share those concerns, I am able to understand the basis for these. El_C 10:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

So, wait a moment. You're telling me that there are people who hold some belief that I have some unique, unexplained ability to change policy, perhaps via some sort of eldritch superpower? And that the current hue and cry is out of paranoid fear that I might inexplicably exercise this alleged superpower so as to cause my proposal to be implemented without discussion and against the wishes of the community? I'm flattered. Kelly Martin (talk) 17:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't be. I think there are those who think there might be an attempt to circumvent in some way the normal processes of policy proposal. This does not imply success, but it does imply conflict. As mentioned, I don't share those fears in this case. El_C 20:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't that, essentially, the crux of the allegations at the recent images-related RfC? That particular incident, I think, illustrates the effects of (and, for some, a source of) that particular fear of unilateralist action. In that particular case you formulated a policy and acted on it, claiming (and receiving) support from discussions at Wikimania. It was at least perceived as a unilateralist action. You explained why that wasn't necessarily the case, but that central lack of congruence in editing styles- "edit first, form consensus later" versus "form consensus first, edit later" - is, in my opinion, one of the reasons for the suspicion and interference in this case. Captainktainer * Talk 21:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The recent RfC regarding fair use abuse was the result of a combination of people who don't understand how policy is made on Misplaced Pages, people who dislike (or even fear) me personally, people who like to throw rocks at admins for doing what admins do, and people who just like a good fight. In any case, in that instance I was purportedly criticized for acting without consensus. In this instance, I am being criticized for attempting to build consensus. If people are going to criticize me whatever I do, I may as well do whatever I want and simply ignore the criticism, which in this instance seems even more baseless than it was on the fair use abuse RfC; at least there there were some vaguely credible complaints regarding civility. Here it's just a blatant display of the assumption of bad faith on the part of a small but vocal group who seem to be in abject fear of my purported extraordinary power to alter policy on the English Misplaced Pages. Kelly Martin (talk) 07:08, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Kelly, I tried to stay out of that RfC and I thought your policy suggestion was a good one. However your attempted method of constructing the tightened fair use policy was unilateral and unnecessarily divisive. Furthermore, many established editors expressed concern over that behavior and it is unreasonable to dismiss them all as "combination of people who don't understand how policy is made on Misplaced Pages, people who dislike (or even fear) me personally, people who like to throw rocks at admins for doing what admins do, and people who just like a good fight". And while I do see the concern here to be at best a minor policy issue, the users who have pointed out that this is symptomatic of a larger problem may be correct. In general if you approached things in a more diplomatic way we might get a lot more accomplished without these long, drawn out dramas. JoshuaZ 07:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Dude, you don't get it. I could be more diplomatic, yes, but then I'd be far less effective. I'm actually very effective in accomplishing what I want to accomplish. Yes, it's true, typically any effort on my part to accomplish anything is surrounded by a huge mass of drama. None of that has any impact on my effectiveness, though, and it's not even really a disincentive for me. I personally actually find the drama rather amusing, and I think it's beneficial for Misplaced Pages in the long run, too, because it exposes the drama queens to the community so that the rest of us know who not to trust. I'm apparently being stalked by dozens of editors who apparently have nothing better to do but look for things to go after me for -- and they will come up with things to go after me for no matter how diplomatically I do it. It's certainly not reasonable to require an editor to stop editing simply because other editors are stalking him or her, looking for opportunities to create drama. Seriously, do you really think I'm at fault here simply because I created a policy proposal draft in my user space? Kelly Martin (talk) 07:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) It is perfectly valid to create a draft of a proposal for a policy under user space and I don't see any benefit in pressing Kelly to do it off wiki. Some concerns this draft may rise is it's inclusion into Category:Misplaced Pages proposals due to the template tag. Maybe the proposal tag could be substed and then the cat inclusion disarmed. Or we might change template:proposal in such a way that it doesn't add pages to Category:Misplaced Pages proposals if they are in userspace (can be done with m:ParserFunctions). An example of a namespace dependent activation of category inclusion can be seen in the code for temlate tfd. --Ligulem 07:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the real issue here is that some people are simply afraid of me having anything to do policy at all, and start banging gongs and drums as soon as they see me sneaking up on a policy page. (Although, oddly enough, nobody reverted or even commented on my reorganization of the blocking policy the other day. Did I really sneak that one in under the radar?) Frankly, it's getting old. Don't we have policies against stalking? Kelly Martin (talk) 07:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this page serves no harm, perhaps after working on it a while Kelly will see there is no point in finishing it or abandon it all together. It can be on userspace because kelly is unsure if they even want to proceed with prosoing it. I say leave it for now, eventually the community will have a say, I doubt they will decide to give away their power anyway. --User:Zer0faults 13:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I have mixed feelings about the proposal itself (see positive and negative aspects), but I don't see any harm in 'where it currently resides'. Always seemed kind of a weak issue even on the 'article space shortcuts' and 'userboxes in template space' debates to me. Does it really matter what it says to the left of the colon in the page title? If/when the proposal 'goes active' for community discussion we can discuss. Until then it's a proposal in progress and arguing over whether it should have to wait until 'left of the colon' says 'Misplaced Pages' before having the proposal template on it seems like quibbling over the minutiae IMO. --CBD 22:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem, CBDunkerson, is that that page is now featured in Category:Misplaced Pages proposals. If it is such, it needs to be moved to the Misplaced Pages namespace. If it is only Kelly's sandbox, then it should not be listed under that category. All Kelly needs to do is to remove the category from the subst'ed template. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

How exactly is that a problem? 65.127.231.6 04:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not clear on that, either. My proposal is, in fact, a proposal in development, and I don't see why it's wrong for it to appear in a category for such entities. Perhaps if I were obsessive-compulsive (or just anal-retentive) over things like what appears in a category, I might feel differently. Kelly Martin (talk) 06:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

What kind of weird process wonkery says that policy proposals under development have to be in a particular namespace? Why? Where's the common sense behind that? Does anyone seriously believe that people's User: namespace implies ownership? I admit that I utterly fail to understand any objection to the location of this proposal, and I think anyone objecting to its location should keep their eye on the prize, and drop that objection like a bad habit. It's utterly unproductive. -GTBacchus 07:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Besides, it's moved now, so everyone's happy, right? -GTBacchus 07:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

THIS IS BLOODY RIDICULOUS. Let Kelly have her userspace page for a proposed policy, and let me have my userspace page for proposing an alternative to RfA. This does not belong on ANI, and looks like little more than a lynch mob. — Werdna talk criticism 06:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I concur... If this wasn't a lynchmob, nobody would have even NOTICED it in her userspace. - Stephanie Daugherty (Triona) - Talk - Comment - 06:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Are there any spelling or grammatical errors on the page? —Centrx→talk • 07:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

FWIW I agree that she can develop whatever proposals she wants in her own userspace. If she ever seeks to get them accepted by others she'll have to move them somewhere else, if she hasn't already done so by now, and then there'll be plenty of opportunity for people to oppose, support, suggest amendments, ignore, or whatever they want to do. I'm not sure why this is considered a big deal by anyone. Metamagician3000 09:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

CBD reverses valid DRV decision

Now going completely against the policy he claims to be inviolable, CBD has recreated Bad Eisenkappel out of process even though it was deleted and then had its deletion unanimously endorsed at DRV. Evidently it is ok for him to ignore process, but not for anyone else. pschemp | talk 00:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It appears CBD did the correct thing. The town does exist, right? El_C 00:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

This should be a fairly simply one. If there is really a town called Bad Eisenkappel at those approximate coordinates, then obviously Deletion Review got it wrong. If not, then CBD is being a bit overkeen. And yes, fuck process. --Tony Sidaway 00:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, the article is now significantly longer than, Eisenkappl (slov. Zelesna Kapla) is located in Austria in Völkermarkt (district)., which was the entirety of the previous article. Dragons flight 01:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I see no reason why this article should not exist. Therefore, I see nothing wrong with what CBD did. DRV is not infalliable. Kelly Martin (talk) 01:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I see no reason he should be complaining about other people's out of process deletions and technicalities then as was done earlier this week. Good to know. pschemp | talk 01:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

What an odd series of events. Nice article. --Zer0faults 01:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I have asked the user not to violate WP:POINT again in a casual manner. --Zer0faults 01:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

That's not point, I beleive the article should remain deleted. pschemp | talk 01:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Why is that? I am sorry your reason an article on a real town should be deleted is because CB did it out of proccess, however thats not a AfD appropriate reason. If this was deleted by accident and missed in review, then why exactly should it return to deleted status? --Zer0faults 01:16, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

He also called not one but two people trolls (edit summary) which according to him is a personal attack and admin abuse. --W.marsh 01:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow. What happened to assuming good faith? I think Pussy Galore probably meant ever word sincerely. pschemp | talk 01:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Whats this have to do with the DRV? --User:Zer0faults 01:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I can start a new topic then if it bugs you so much. Maybe I should go back and resection all those long conversations up there where someone goes off on a different subject? I wouldn't want anyone to be confused. pschemp | talk 01:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

If there is a complaint about a personal attack the proper forum is WP:PAIN --User:Zer0faults 01:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

This isn't about a personal attack, its about a double standard. Or do you think its ok for CBD to tell people not to use the words trolls and trolling, and then do it himself after lambasting wmarsh for doing it? If you do that's fine, you are allowed. pschemp | talk 01:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

You said this was about the town, the section is, a user above then complains about the usage of the words troling to describe them, thats WP:PAIN. I am not sure about the confusion. --zero faults 01:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Zer0faults, please change back your sig as you did above — so that my sigh of relief wouldn't be for naught. El_C 01:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that the out of process restoration is not the big issue here, really, although the article is not worthy of life. What matters more to me is that it's a demonstration of what we've all been saying, no one is perfect. CBD would do well to remember htat and perhaps cut his fellow admins a little slack instead of attacking them on the talk pages of disruptive users. ++Lar: t/c 01:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

DRV endorsed the deletion not because it wasn't a real town, but because the article was effectively contentless. I've re-deleted it. I won't do it again, of course, but my suggestion would be that if this town is deserving of a real article, that someone actually write a real article, rather than a stub that says "X is Y." If no one can be bothered to actually do that, then I really can't be bothered to cry crocodile tears over the poor abused baby article, cut down in the prime of its life. Nandesuka 01:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you claiming the town dosen't exist? El_C

This is rather strange. If the town exists, why not let the article exist? Antandrus (talk) 01:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Sigh, DRV said make it larger. CBD already made it 3 times larger than what DRV endorsed, and I would have happily said it was a border community with a population of about 2800 . Dragons flight 01:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

nevertheless Nandesuka got it in one. ++Lar: t/c 01:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I also have some content to add, however I am not sure if its already noted as the article is deleted. --zero faults 01:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Ye gods. This is another non-issue. The town exists; therefore its article should stay. Please find another forum to crusade against short articles. — Dan | talk 01:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The article was restored by Rdsmith4, who beat another admin (not me) to the draw. Please stop pointlessly deleting this article. It isn't going to work. --Tony Sidaway 01:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Rdsmith edit-conflicted my undelete.  ;-) The town exists, and there is absolutely no reason we shouldn't have an article on it. It is really that simple. This is not a valid CSD G4 or WP:SALT candidate. As said before, this should be a non-issue. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 02:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The point you are missing here all is that the original author of the article had MONTHS to recreate it with content, at which point no one would have complained. However, he refused to until he got his way with the original article being restored. Indeed he spent those months whining and complaining about admin abuse rather than writing a decent article. And now, by restoring it, and writing it for him, we have sent the message that that kind of behaviour and manipulation is ok. pschemp | talk 01:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

You should be happy that Misplaced Pages did not lose an important article on an actual location, if anything this drama helped expand an article. I am happy when Misplaced Pages grows in content in general. --zero faults 02:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

We do not make such a point at the expense of the encyclopedia, on a town entry, pschemp. El_C 02:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually it was Tobias who refused to rewrite it not me. If anything his refusal to do it until he got his way is what hurt the encyclopedia. Note also I didn't vote to delete the original. I objected to the ignorange of process when just this week CBD blasted me for not following it perfectly. the article is just an example of this. pschemp | talk 02:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)pschemp | talk 02:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

So this is entirely personal issue. Accordingly, please take it to the relevant user talk pages, and discontinue this conversation. — Dan | talk 02:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Should I go remove all the other personal issues posted on this page too? Though I hardly think an admin behaving badly is a personal issue as its discussed at lentgh in threads up above where I was accused of not being perfect. pschemp | talk 02:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The point here to me is merely this... we all make mistakes and we ought not to rail about failure to follow process in one instance and then fail to follow it in another. Better to have some balance and not be so quick to judge other editors, which point I think is lost now. Hopefully CBD will realise that, and cut more people more slack. ++Lar: t/c 03:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah sorry edited a few after Tony did, just havent edited the actual settings yet, 2 minutes, thanks for reminder. --User:Zer0faults

What's wrong with an article about a place that says "X is a village in Y at Z?" For heaven's sake, this is a place. It was probably here before we were born, and it will probably still be here when we're all dead. --Tony Sidaway 02:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Keeping this is a no brainer. This is exactly why we should not let silly squabbles get in the way of the encyclopedia, which I remain convinced is around here somewhere. Friday (talk) 02:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Surely we have a name for short articles on places - {{stub}}s, or possibly even {{geo-stub}}s. Are you arguing that they should all be deleted? What is wrong with a short article on a place that actually exists? -- ALoan (Talk) 05:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Nothing, as long as the "place" isn't, say, one guy's house! :) Xoloz 21:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Hi - DRV closer here. The deleted article didn't even bother to "X is Y"; it said "X is in...", but didn't even bother calling the place a "town", or calling it anything at all. If someone has a draft now in good faith calling this a town, that's fine IMO. The DRV does not then apply. Xoloz 21:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Xoloz, please don't take my action as an implication that your DRV close was improper. You followed the clear consensus and it wasn't clear that the article was about a town... unless you are familiar with German place names like Bad Mergentheim, Bad Lausick, et cetera. I just couldn't imagine that anyone would object to an expanded article on an encyclopedic subject once sufficient info were added to address such concerns. --CBD 22:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

We definitely need DRV closers who are prepared to admit that they have brains and that on occasion the use of a brain is not only unavoidable but desirable. . --Tony Sidaway 04:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Davkal blocked for personal attacks, please review

I hardly ever block for personal attacks, but this is ridiculous. I have blocked Davkal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for one week for extreme personal attacks here and especially here. Note that the obscenities are transparent versions of the names of real editors who're active on Talk:Hilary Putnam. Please review this block and feel free to change it (please post your rationale here if you do). Is a week too much? Too little? This is not a newbie. He is generally a combative editor with a tendency to edit war and three 3RR blocks to his name, but nothing like this. As I consider the attacks in the second link I cite outrageous, I blocked right away, without previous warning, which might be a reason to reduce the block. Bishonen | talk 02:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC).

Looks fine to me; we can do without this kind of behavior, since it is corrosive and drives away good editors. If he/she apologises on the talk page, then I might suggest shortening the block/unblocking. Antandrus (talk) 02:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I have been attempting to mediate a bitter dispute on the CSICOP talk page between Davkal and (primarily) Askolnick and KarlBunker. There have been multiple incivilities and some personal attacks in both directions over the last month; I've refrained from doing more than asking the participants to tone it down, since I wanted to try to get them to engage, rather than use formal warnings and process. I agree this block is warranted; and in fact Davkal's comments are not related to the CSICOP page, though Askolnick is one of those he attacks. However, if and when he returns, I wouldn't mind having a third party, unconnected to the mediation, keep an occasional eye on that talk page and make firmer requests for civility (from all parties) than I feel able to do as the mediator. If anyone is interested and willing, leave me a note. Thanks. Mike Christie (talk) 02:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Bishonen, it's not that he has not been warned about NPA. I've warned him several times that I would file a complaint against his disruptive conduct if it continues (I'm glad you've now filed one.) He knows that personal attacks and 3RR violations are blockable offenses. He can't really complain that no one warned him. BTW, he's also now vandalizing my comments, such as these, which include some vulgar comments: Yesterday, I placed a vandalism warning on his talk page. Askolnick 05:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

This place seems to have gone crazy over the past few days. Anyway, those edits were way beyond the pale. Some people could quibble about the length of the block, perhaps, but I won't. I think it was well within your discretion in the circumstances. Metamagician3000 05:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The block seems solidly reasonable to me. Also, note the excellent explanation of the block given on the user's talk page- this is an example for us all. Friday (talk) 05:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I was also impressed by the lucid block explanation. -- Samir धर्म 05:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you guys. The user didn't like my post as much as you did, I guess... :-/ but please don't anybody extend the block over his intemperate reaction to it. As I've said before on this page, a block is a shock; it's not a good time to inspect the user's talkpage for civility. Look the other way. Please compare Mexican politicians and BLP#Upped to indef below. Blocked users didn't use to be able to edit even their own talkpages. If their ability to comment the block on their talkpage is going to be used against them in this way, it might be better to remove that ability. That's not what I think we should do, though; I think we should make it policy, or at least practice, to not extend blocks over incivility towards the blocking admin. Admins have too much power to be so fucking touchy. Bishonen | talk 12:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC).

Now that doesn't sound at all like my "meatpuppet" (as Davkal calls you - among his less obscene comments). While I would have liked to see another administrator pounce on him for attacking you for doing your job, your argument makes sense, mostly. Allowing occassional steam venting is a good way to avoid even worse disruption. It's much easier to ignore an angry outburst than to have to cope with an editor's calculated and vengeful disruption caused by pent-up anger. However, may I suggest that this turning-the-other-cheek policy be restricted to only one cheek? If Davkal continues his outrageous personal attacks, this latest vulgar attack should be remembered and considered in deciding how long he will be blocked.

A review of Davkal's record of contributions shows that he has contributed next to nothing to Wiki articles. However, he has caused an enormous amount of disruption and made others waste a great deal of their time responding to his disruptive behavior. He's only worked on a few articles. When his changes are resisted by other editors, he launches an escallating campaign of disruption to force them to accept his edits. So far, blocks have not persuaded him to adopt less destructive methods of persuasion. And this latest block has only made him more furious. I don't think a week will be a long enough time out for him to decide to change his ways. As his disruptive attacks keep escallating, so should his time-outs. Askolnick 12:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Mexican politicians and BLP

All my previous interactions with administrators have been highly negative, but I'm posting here anyway, just for kicks.

There's an ongoing, lively debate on Vicente Fox (mostly), Andrés Manuel López Obrador, and Felipe Calderón about whether WP:BLP, WP:RS, and WP:NPA are policies, or just really bad ideas.

Pgk, Geoffrey Spear, Chacor and Hseldon10 believe I am a "dictator of Misplaced Pages" for insisting that sources actually support the content. For example, my first edit to Vicente Fox removed a long diatribe about "racist comments" made by Vicente Fox. Notice no references or sources were provided. I removed () the assertion that Fox's "campaign promised to provide every Mexican a job in Mexico" when the source provided did not mention this claim or anything close to it. Hseldon reverted those two edits with no explanation. I then removed all and only unsourced content. Hseldon10 then made extensive edits re-adding the content to an amazing assortment of dead links and obscure Spanish-language sources followed by a wonderful edit from Joseph Solis of Australia that completely undid my enforcement of BLP by adding in other unsourced content I had previously removed. I reverted these edits. For the next ten or so edits there was relative peace with Bnguyen adding a reliable source to Fox's controversial comments and I removed a few references linking to blogs - forbidden by WP:RS. The next twenty or so edits consisted of a revert war between Hseldon and various vandal anons over when Fox's term ends. The details are irrelevant. At this point I went through all of Hseldon's "reliable sources" and realized I had been duped. I altered the content to actually reflect the sources here, removed a pov eulogy to Fox here that was sourced to Fox's state of the nation speech. I removed several more broken links and obscure Spanish language sources. Since then Geoff Spear and Pgk (twice) have reverted my edits. Chacor is now claiming I'm violating WP:OWN and is demanding an WP:RFC. He refuses to call me by my username and instead refers to me as "yyyyyy." The comments on the talkpage are a wonderful assortment of personal attacks. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 02:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Jeez, you do realise "yyyyyy" is easier to type than "Ya ya ya ya ya ya", right? Btw, just to point out WP:RFCU - here. Also, this is a content dispute, not an administrative problem. (See also) – Chacor 02:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Chacor is engaging in sockpuppetry, in addition to the myriad of other policy violations. Is this not grounds for blocking? How did this user ever become an administrator? Ya ya ya ya ya ya 03:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Ya ya ya ya ya ya blocked 48 hours

User:Mike Halterman has blocked Ya ya ya ya ya ya 48 hours for WP:POINT for this. – Chacor 03:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Endorse block. Ya ya ya was being highly disruptive -- Samir धर्म 03:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

User's talk page history - protection? – Chacor 03:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Just noting that the user removed Samir's reason for declining the unblock request he left on his talk page, and left an abusive edit summary. I reverted it, but the change can be found in the link Chacor gave. --Coredesat talk. o_O 03:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Upped to indef

Mike has upped it to an indefinite block. Could other admins please review? Cheers. – Chacor 03:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

He wasn't using the blocking time for what I intended, instead trying to stir up more shit with myself, Chacor, and other editors. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 03:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

"He wasn't using the blocking time for what I intended"? Are you serious? That's a grounds for an indef, not following your intent? He made three contribs after being blocked. . No legal threats, no threats of violence, just one replacement of the unblock template, some continued incivility, and some personal attacks. A lot of people get angry when they are blocked: you've put them in a little holding pen and many people respond to the shock by lashing out. This level of lashing out on a blocked user's own user page shouldn't be used to justify any block extension, let alone an indef. Reduce the block back to the original length and protect the talk page. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 05:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not rolling it back. If someone else wants to do it, they're more than welcome. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 05:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no reason we should allow disruptive trolls to edit. – Chacor 05:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with *that* in general. I'm only able to evaluate so much information at a time; so far, in response to the request to review, I've looked at what's happened since he was blocked 48 hours, under the assumption that the 48 hour block made sense at the time. If it did, then what he's done since then does not justify an extension to indef. Are we saying the original 48 hour block was too lenient and he should have been indef'd from the get-go? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 05:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Indefinite is a long time. He may well have acted in a way that makes us all unwilling to shorten the 48 hour block, but it takes a lot to justify blocking someone indefinitely. Respectfully suggest the original block be restored. Metamagician3000 05:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I've done so. He has had constructive edits prior to these and, while I was also angered by his lashing out while blocked, I don't think an indef is warranted based on that alone -- Samir धर्म 05:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Slightly off topic, I apologize, but after checking his user talk, why the hell did he want to talk to me? I didn't even do any reversions at pages he editted (IIRC). Ryūlóng 10:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I saw on WP:3O that people are asking for an informal mediator. When Ya ya ya ya ya comes off his block, I'm willing to lend a hand and maybe try to mediate the content dispute (leaving any personal attacks/whatever else in the hands of the capable administrators here). Captainktainer * Talk 11:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

A block is a shock. If a blocked user "lashes out" or "tries to stir up shit" on his talkpage, I suggest you try just looking the other way. Please see my argument in the thread immediately above, concerning a blocked user who reacted a lot more rudely than this one: "Admins have too much power to be so fucking touchy." Bishonen | talk 12:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC).

This user is apparently, or at least allegedly, Freestylefrappe. From the unblock mailing list:

Ah... the eloquence of the administrator...
A lovely little comment from the administrator who blocked me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&diff=74653272&oldid=74653083
Double standards? Of course.
-Freestylefrappe

++Lar: t/c 13:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The user asked me to look into this. When I did I found that the "content dispute" was over whether WP:BLP applies to completely unreferenced claims that Vincente Fox is a racist and having Misplaced Pages itself state (rather than attributing it to someone else) that Fox frequently says things which "demonstrate his inexperience or lack of culture." In my judgement... BLP does apply here. To put it mildly. My first thought was to simply delete the page entirely as suggested by BLP, but instead I reverted to a version which seems ok and protected it. Protecting a page you have edited (just that one revert) is bad, but in the circumstances... (with users edit warring to keep the accusations of racism unreferenced and admins upholding it) I thought that page ought to be locked down until this gets sorted out. I have just now seen that I've above been accused of 'bad' admin action (what, no note to my talk page?) for undeleting and expanding an article on a place rather than just re-writing it from scratch... no doubt this will be another example of 'crimes' on my part, but c'mon. We blocked the guy who was trying to add valid references? Like this one... where he replaced a blog ref with one from CNN. But not to worry, after he was blocked they put it back to having no references at all for that section! Yippee! --CBD 14:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

His block has nothing to do with the article. His block was for violating WP:POINT at WP:RFCU. – Chacor 14:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, someone is going to have to explain that to me. There was an IP edit. You accused him of making it to get around 3RR (which doesn't apply to WP:BLP violations anyway)... he accused you of making it to 'frame' him for such. You requested RFCU's against each other. I see incivility and failure to assume good faith. Where's the WP:POINT violation? -CBD 15:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The request filed by Ya ya is clearly retaliatory, which checkuser frowns on. Moreover, we'd never accept it anyway, because he was trying to out Chacor's IP address. I wouldn't be surprised if this is FSF, since he pulled the same trick on me last January. Mackensen (talk) 15:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

So far as I know it is FSF. He has said as much and I see no reason to doubt it. However, it seems odd that if two users accuse each other of making the same IP edit we only consider the first accusation. Trying to 'out' someone's IP address also doesn't make sense to me. That would only happen if the checkuser performer revealed it... which they wouldn't. --CBD 17:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, indeed we wouldn't. That doesn't change the fact that he asked. Mackensen (talk) 17:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

CBD I don't think any reasonable person would fault you for trying to get Vincente Fox in compliance with BLP, (in fact, full marks!) but this incident doesn't seem to be primarily about that, it seems to be primarily about FSF's behaviour and sockery. ++Lar: t/c 16:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Joehazelton - Violations of 3RR & deceptive edit summary.

User:Joehazelton has violated the three-revert rule in the Peter Roskam article. This user has been previously blocked two times for multiple violations (3RR & civility).

1. 9/07/06 #1
2. 9/08/06 #2
3. 9/08/06 #3
4. 9/08/06 #4

I don't have the time to completely review this user's edit history, but I am certain you will find repeated violations.

Also, the edit below provided a deceptive edit summary. It stated removed more list cruft but in fact it added back content which had been deleted based on the objections of two other editors.

• 9/08/06 - abusive edit summary

I would greatly appreciate your help. Thanks. Propol 05:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

A quick review looks like this is an edit war between two sides of an election campaign (2006 Congressional election — Illinois) , with the editors using the articles as campaign platforms:

• Joehazelton (talk · contribs · logs) supporting candidate Peter Roskam
• Propol (talk · contribs · logs) supporting candidate Tammy Duckworth

Both are recent accounts, which seem to be single purpose (2006 Illinois Congressional elections) — ERcheck (talk) 12:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

ERcheck, would you please reexamine the situation. If you review my contributions, you will note that I have made edits to multiple political candidates of both parties from several different states. I have a general interest in politics and my account is by no means a single purpose account. Also, I would like to point out that I have not engaged in edit-warring. I have never been warned, let alone blocked. I always make every attempt to follow Misplaced Pages rules. On the other hand, User:Joehazelton is clearly a single purpose account, has been blocked twice before, warned dozens of times by other editors and administrators, and as demonstrated by the links above has clearly violated the rules (3RR and abusive edit summary). Also, I disagree with your assessment of my being pro-Duckworth. I have, however, objected to User:Joehazelton including many disparaging items about Duckworth in the Peter Roskam article. Frequently blogs have been used as sources, or negative quotes from Roskam about Duckworth - clearly items not of encyclopedic quality. I stand behind all of my edits. I am not asking anyone to choose sides; I am simply asking for the rules to be enforced! Again, I ask that this user be blocked. I appreciate your consideration. Please help me. I want a high-quality NPOV article. Propol 15:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

ERcheck response:

• With respect to Propol's response here:

• Propol's edit history: Propol's first edits were on June 16, with 3rd edit (on same day) to the Peter Roskam article. While there have been edits to a number of other articles, the vast majority are to the Roskam and Duckworth articles. Yes there have been a few edits to other articles — 6 other Illinois candidates, one Kentucky candidate, one Indiana candidate, and the CRNC chairman; 2 Democrats, rest Republican. "Single-purpose" with respect to Duckworth and Roskam may not be the most accurate description; Propol's edits do focus on current political candidates, for the most part in Illinois. Propol's interest appears to be in Illinois and nearby politics and with a focus in Misplaced Pages on one particular race in which there has been public mudslinging.
• With respect to edit warring: A definition is "two or more contributors' repeated reverts of one another's edits to an article." Propol and Joehazelton have been reverting each other's edits on the Roskam article. I see 3 reverts (within 24 hours) by Propol of the open letter.

• Additional comment's on Propol's ANI report:

• With respect to the 3RR rule, the report reverts, all fall outside of the 24 hour time frame between consecutive reversion. Note: 3RR violations should be reported to WP:AN/3RR.
• With respect to the "abusive edit summary", the text is "removed more list cruft". Propol's edit summaries include "Revert whitewash", which is no less contentious than "cruft". I don't agree that is is deception (although it was not full disclosure). Joehazelton, while adding some info, did remove a link to a DCCC page criticizing Roskam. AGF, "list cruft" could refer to that link. (In my opinion, that is an inappropriate, biased link.)
• With respect to the inclusion of blogs (not considered to be reliable sources), you have included Eric Zorn's blog as a reference. Eric Zorn may be a columnist for a mainstream newspaper, but do you know that his blog is subjected to editorial scrutiny and fact checking?

• Concerning the basic issues here:

• Content dispute, maintaining NPOV in articles on current Congressional candidates: Please see the Administrators' noticeboard section on Dispute resolution. In reviewing the edits and the talk page discussion, a neutral third party might be of help.
• Propol and Joehazelton's dispute: There are talk page discussions between the two — none too friendly. Though both editors may have the motive of seeing a fair treatment of candidates, the situation with respect to the Roskham article has become personal. I do suggest that both take a cooling off period from each other.
• With respect to Joehazelton's conduct: Though some tempers have flared (incivility), he has shown some willingess (see his talk page) to discuss the issues. I'm not willing to block for 3RR for the reported activity. Incivility / personal attacks (by either party) should not be allowed to go unchecked.

— ERcheck (talk) 11:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

ERcheck, thanks for taking a closer look at the situation. I have just one minor response to your comments, you noted that I used a blog by Eric Zorn as a source. That is correct; however, this blog was published in the Chicago Tribune and was subject to fact checking and editorial review. Really, it's more of a column than a blog. They only call it a blog because readers can post responses to the article online. I don't think an online response would qualify as a reliable source, but the original article itself does. User:Joehazelton doesn't seem to see the distinction between this and other blogs found out there. This, amongst other issues, has lead to a contentious debate. I assure you that I am trying to work in a collaborative manner, but Joehazelton is really exhausting my patience. I welcome a fresh set of eyes on the article. Thanks. Propol 15:08, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

ERcheck To respond to the Eric Zorn blog, he is a well known Chicago Tribune Journalist with a "hard core" bias towards Dupage County Republicans and has, an aggressive style and philosophy of Advocacy journalism(which in of it self would violate publish Misplaced Pages policy WP:BLP. I feel that Eric Zorn Blog editorial comments and the spin of facts to try to establish a link of disreputable and unethical behavior is Non sequitur or False Cause as well as just his opinion (Mr. Zorn's) and as such is not under very strong editorial review by the Chicago Tribune and I would classify his website as a blog. I feel Propol addition of this is, spurious and not consistent with Encyclopedic content. Also, in closing, the patronizing and condescending comments of Propol, have not been very AGF.Joehazelton 22:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Protection of R. L. Stine

The R. L. Stine page has been vandalized several times by people who do not use Misplaced Pages usernames and I would like to request that the page be protected so that further vandalism does not occur. Thanks for the consideration in advance. --Dleav 05:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

This should go under WP:RFPP, if I am correct. --physicq210 05:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes technically should go to the above mentioned page, but this doesn't look like a case where protection is called for. Vandalism on this article is light, 4 in the past week. Generally semi-protection (stops anons/new users from editting) is used when vandalism is more like 4 vandal edits an hour. When the vandalism is moderate to low, it's best just to revert it. And this is pretty much they'd say at the other page, sorry. --W.marsh 05:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Raja Lon Flattery removing warnings from Talk page

Despite repeated and final warnings, User:Raja Flattery has continued to blank their talk page. Part of this was under the earlier name User:The 89 guy which was moved earlier today to User:Raja Flattery. User:Raja Flattery has since been moved to User:Raja Lon Flattery (where ironically confessions to earlier vandalism exist). I don't understand how, but User talk:Raja Lon Flattery is protected from editing. I'm certainly confused ... Nfitz 05:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I am trying to sort this out now. --WinHunter 06:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted the move of his userpage and the talk page and left a note on his talk page about the proper procedure of changing username. The User talk:Raja Lon Flattery was never protected (the notice was added by the user himself). --WinHunter 06:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah ... they fooled me! But what about his talk page blanking - shouldn't User:The 89 guy (and I guess the User:Raja Lon Flattery sockpuppet) be blocked for that at this stage? I've just restored the warnings on User talk:The 89 guy that they had blanked earlier today. Nfitz 06:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh my - they just reverted the warnings again, and are also using User:89.32.1.82, which they have previously acknowledged is their IP. Can someone block all these? Nfitz 06:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

and, I'm realising, has undone the revert of his User Page move. Nfitz 06:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

there is no need to refer to the plural. although there are many people using that ip, i (the 89 guy user) was the one who tried unsuccesfully to change my account to "raja flattery" and "raja lon flattery". my original intetion was not to create sockpuppets. however, as a resolution for this dispute nfitz cares so much for, i will cease using any of these accounts, which should be either deleted or blocked indefinitely. once again, my account was "the 89 guy" and, attempting to move pages, i accidentally created accounts "raja flattery" and "raja lon flattery". my intention was neither to practice sockpuppetry nor to encourage it. that's why i propose the deletion or indefinite blocking of these accounts so that no one can use them. as for me, i will try to register for a new one as soon as the above mentioned accounts are rendered useless.The 89 guy 12:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't using plural ... was using 'they' as third-person singular, as I wouldn't want to misidentify sex. How do we get some administrator action here? Nfitz 16:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Emir214

I discovered Emir214 forged my RfA a couple of months ago. I brought this up at the main RfA talk page. As a result, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_adminship/Emir214 was speedy deleted by Winhunter and Netsnipe blocked him for a week. --Chris S. 06:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

User:.:Debil:.

This user has repeatedly removed warnings from his talk page after they were replaced first by User:Someguy0830 and then by myself. He has also told me to "fuck off and stop being an asshole" for the replacements, and seems to think that he owns his page on Misplaced Pages and can do whatever he likes with it. ~iNVERTED | Rob (Talk | Contribs) 09:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I gave him a week's vacation. User:Zscout370 11:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Banned User:Irate

Banned user has returned on 84.9.211.254 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), vandalising categories and issuing personal attacks. Needs blocking. Lancsalot 12:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Someone got 'im. --InShaneee 15:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Welcome message

Hi, I recently posted a welcome message on to User:Kcoelho by accident (instead of the talk page). I was wondering if the page could be deleted for the benefit of the user in question (they can start their page without my mistake in the history). Thanks. --Alex 14:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. — FireFox  _{15:53, 09 September 2006}

Dbiv and Peter Tatchell

I know it has been going on for a while, but User:Dbiv is editing Peter Tatchell despite the ban imposed by ArbCom. The editing is happening right now, and User:Calton is reverting; he is also saying some things in edit summaries he perhaps shouldn't. User:Freakofnurture is reverting as well, although he is not being so harsh in his edit summaries (he is using rollback).

I am not taking sides on this issue, but 1. Dbiv's edits are undoubtedly useful to the article 2. Dbiv is undoubtedly in direct violation of ArbCom's ruling and 3. There is an revert/edit war going on right now. Someone braver (and with protection/blocking tools at their disposal) than me might want to go and sort out what is happening. Batmanand | Talk 15:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there's a tension here. We've been put in the ridiculous position of reverting good edits. I never saw why the article ban was necessary and it's clear that we're actively harming the encyclopedia by keeping it in place. Mackensen (talk) 15:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and incidentally, in the next few minutes, 3RR violations might well happen from both users. Batmanand | Talk 15:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The only "edit war" going on here is blind canceling out of David Boothroyd's (User:Dbiv) positive contributions. While it is a bit understandable that editors want to help enforce an ArbCom decision it strikes me as more sensible to merely mention Dbiv's editing of the article somewhere (ie: here) rather than just blindly edit out his beneficial edits. In the interest of full disclosure I happen to generally disagree with the ArbCom decision to ban Dbiv from editing this article for a year. A better solution (imho) would be to have placed him on revert patrol for the article. (→Netscott) 15:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but I find it to be a dark and scary road when we start deciding which arbcom decisions we ought to ignore. For the record, I've also warned Carlton for his part in this, and may issue a brief 'cool down' block shortly. --InShaneee 15:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Tony Sidaway's comments below. Are adminstrators obliged to enforce every ArbCom decision? Obviously there will be those who will say yes but if in ignoring all rules an editor is benefiting the encyclopedia why should they be penalized? Also just as an editor can be banned under "community patience" logic, why not have the inverse apply? (→Netscott) 16:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I would ask why can the issue of a lifting of their previous decision simply be brought up to the Arbs instead? --InShaneee 16:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It was. Batmanand | Talk 16:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

My mistake. Though that link does raise some interesting points. --InShaneee 16:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Previously Tony Sidaway spoke about David being a positive contributor that the project would suffer to see him leave (a statement that I agree with). This whole story goes hand in hand with that. (→Netscott) 16:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The article is now lacking references because of the reverts. This is beyond absurd. Mackensen (talk) 15:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC) I've currently blocked Dbiv for one week and noted so on his ArbCom page. If the ArbCom would like to rollback their decision, I'll be more than happy to unblock. --InShaneee 15:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• For my part, I've re-added the references, in the interests of promoting the encyclopedic quality of an article. I would note that I'm not presently under any kind of sanction, at least none that I'm aware of. Mackensen (talk) 15:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I decided this morning, after giving Dbiv a warning, to stop trying to enforce this remedy. Administrators aren't required to enforce arbitration remedies, and in my view if I performed such enforcement in this case I would not be improving the encyclopedia, but probably making it worse. Ignore all rules applies here. --Tony Sidaway 15:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

But the question surely is this: would you, or anyone else who disagreed with the remedy (or at least have stopped enforcing it) actively revert someone who reverted Dbiv's edits? Or would you reinsert them as "yourself" (as opposed to a rollback)? Or are you going to just stay out of the whole sordid affair? It's a toughie... Batmanand | Talk 15:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

That's also a question of politness--rolling back a sysop is beyond rude (although we've all done before, as a survey once showed). Mackensen (talk) 15:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

They're good contribs, there's no arguing that. I'm all for putting back in what belongs there. --InShaneee 15:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't revert to retain well sourced, neutral and balanced information inserted by User:dbiv. I wouldn't revert to avoid retaining it either. I wish he would place his information on the talk page. --Tony Sidaway 16:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Since he is currently blocked, I'm adding the following text from Dbiv's talk page:

Since the axe of the Arbitration finding fell I have continued to edit the article, and no-one has actually criticised the substance of my edits. They have all been accepted in the article. I am not going to put edits through a 'filter' of the talk page; such a suggestion is an insult given that I wrote most of what's there in the article at the moment, and it's also pointless given the fact that no-one outside the Arbitration Committee seems to believe I will actually be disruptive. (The Arbitration Committee itself has refused to offer any true explanation of the article ban, however). Even if they do believe that I might be disruptive, then there are mechanisms in place which allow control - article-specific probation, or even general probation - which I would be quite willing to accept. If such a change was made then I would consider the article ban repudiated and return to contributing to Misplaced Pages generally. David | Talk 16:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

(→Netscott) 16:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe a solution:

1. Page-banned editors are still allowed to make suggestions at the talk page.
2. Any other editor can add them to the main page.
3. To streamline this, one or more editors could function as a proxy, he makes the suggestion, they judge it, and add it if they see fit.

As far as I know, the page-ban was for disruption, not for content issues. This would allow the ArbCom ruling to be enforced, while the positive content contributions benefit Misplaced Pages.-- Kim van der Linde 16:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)\

A good idea, but he has written in the rant on his userpage already that he would not accept that as a solution. --InShaneee 17:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Two things. One, I don't know that I'd characterize it as a "rant" (I reserve that word for incoherent tirades). Two, this solution doesn't seem any different from the present situation. Mackensen (talk) 17:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The minor difference would be that I for example would use as a filter *.* aka, everything he suggests is added, unless it is uncivil or something like that. It would be really a proxy without additional filtering. BUt I guess it will not be accaptable for him. As for the page ban, I actually disagree with the ArbCom on that, just as various other editors. As such, I think the ArbCom might want to rethink this as the ban itself is now more disruptive than the editing of the page due to the lack of community support for that ban. -- Kim van der Linde 17:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that it would be better for the project if Dbiv would restrain himself until and unless the arbcom ruling is changed/amended/etc. It's possible that the article may be improved by his edits, but it's very harmful to the community when our last-and-final-resort dispute-resolution mechanism has its remedies ignored in this fashion. IAR has its place and it's very important, but I believe that Arbcom should have its rulings honoured while they stand. I have no comment about the justice of the ruling, which I haven't followed enough to have an opinion on. --Improv 17:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm still looking for a warm supporter of the ruling convinced by the merits...Mackensen (talk) 17:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I am. Dbiv was barred from the article for disruption, edit-warring and misusing admin tools. He has a pattern of edit-warring alongside his many useful contributions. Given Dbiv's propensity to edit-war, ArbCom had little choice than to limit his ability to do so. In continuing to make constructive edits to the article Dbiv is just a much interested in playing games with the community as he is in improving the article. That said a bit more calm from some of the other people involved might help the situation as well. The Land 17:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The same could have been accomplished by putting him on 1RR and general parole, and would in the end have been much more productive for Misplaced Pages. -- Kim van der Linde 18:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

(Reindent): I don't think that admins (or anyone) should ignore ArbCom decisions because they think that they are wrong, counterproductive, ... They are supposed to be binding decisions, and the only way to go against them (except emergencies, which this isn't) is to appeal (at ArbCom or with Jimbo). If you disregard ArbCom decisions, then you loose all authority, both as an admin and the authority from ArbCom. In this case, the user has every ooportunity to make edits to other articles, and a good solution has been given to let him make indiret contributions to this article. That he disregards this shows a thorough disrespect for the decision taken by ArbCom and does not give the impression that he accepts that he was wrong earlier. That some admins are willing to support him in this against this ArbCom decision is beyond me, and is in a way much more serious than the behaviour of one editor. If you can't live with the policies of Misplaced Pages, if you can't accept the few binding decisions taken, and if you disregard them in such a blatant way, it makes me wonder how you can still be at the same time an administrator. Fram 18:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

There are several seperate issues:

1. Do you accept the binding nature of the ArbCom decisions? Yes
2. Do you agree with those binding ArbCom decisions? Most of the time
3. Do you enforce ArbCom decisions you agree with? Yes
4. Do you enforce ArbCom decisions you disagree with? No
5. Do you obstruct enforcement of ArbCom decisions you disagree with? No
6. Do you voice your disagreement with ArbCom decisions you disagree with? Yes

I am here as a volunteer, not as a paid law-enforcement officier. I think there is nothing wrong with voicing disagreement with ArbCom rulings, as long as you do not obstruct them. -- Kim van der Linde 18:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Dbiv's rejection of Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution process is the cause of his problems. From start to finish he chose to ignore standard dispute resolution policy that is used to find consensus. This behavior continues with his blatant disregard of the arbitration committee ruling. Damage *is* done to the encyclopedia if we ignore the final step of dispute resolution--an arbitration ruling.

Regarding reverting quality edits- it is a necessary evil. The same as protecting articles in the wrong version. FloNight 19:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• This is only the case if we accept the proposition that Arbcom is always right. Frankly, I think Arbcom fumbled this one badly. Its charter doesn't include content disputes but it ruled as though it did. It isn't a necessary evil. No one disagrees with the quality of the edits–my reinstatement stood, and with good reason. When you ban Dbiv from Peter Tatchell you don't punish him, you punish the article. If Dbiv needs punishing ban him, desysop him, burn his house down, whatever. But if he's still a contributor in good standing, it's nonsensical to ban him outright from an article. What about article probation? One-revert rule? No, Arbcom fumbled and would do us all a service by admitting the mistake and taking the necessary steps to correct it. Mackensen (talk) 19:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Couldn't agree more with both User:KimvdLinde and User:Mackensen here. (→Netscott) 20:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I stongly advocate a clue-based approach. Are the edits good? Yes? Then politely remind David that he's not supposed to edit the articles and should suggest on Talk in future, and get on with our lives. In this case, to suggest a list of changes that long on Talk would have taken almost as much space as this discussion... Guy 20:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I rarely feel the need to comment on threads here, but this is inane. An article that needs improving is being improved. To actively disimprove an article in the name of enforcing some rule is overdone bureaucracy and something that should only happen if, say, the Department of Motor Vehicles were running the encyclopedia. Opabinia regalis 20:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Consensus?

In the sense of a community decision I propose we try to establish a consensus regarding what we think would be the best solution for the project relative to this issue of User:Dbiv editing the Peter Tatchell article. If a consensus is established that another remedy would be more appropriate for Dbiv then we could present this community consensus to ArbCom and see if it could be adopted. I admit that I don't know if there is any sort of process to allow for this but as I'm seeing a decent number of respectable editors having reservations about the current ArbCom remedy it seems like at least the possibility of another remedy should be entertained. I would start by proposing that Dbiv be put on 1RR revert patrol on the article. (→Netscott) 20:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

A solution has been presented to Dbiv (placing his comments/edits on the talk page). I can't see how sending the message that while all channels have been used and the final, binding decision was that he should not edit the article, he can now come and do that anyway, since he has useful points to make... The solution that he rejects is one that makes it possible for him to contribute and for the encyclopedia to use his contributions, while not ignoring the past and decisions that have been taken becausee of his actions. I can't see how that is unacceptable as a compromise, and if he is not willing to compromise in any way (which is the impression this gives), then I don't see why we (i.e. the community) should just give in and let him have his way. A compromise must come from both sides. If the proposal by Netscott is supported, then the consensus will at least not have my agreement. Fram 20:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I should have made this clear. So far I've not seen much in the way of disagreement that Dbiv's editing on the article was negative per se (negative in the sense that he contravened ArbCom's ruling, surely). Unless someone disagrees that his edits were done towards improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages's quality then as User:Tony Sidaway mentioned earlier this is a case of "ignore all rules". I admit that despite this truth Dbiv's defiance relative to an ArbCom ruling is not a character in editors that the project wants to cultivate but can anyone honestly disagree that his edits didn't improve Misplaced Pages's quality? (→Netscott) 20:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

If David had said something along the lines of "look, I have a shedload of citations that need adding, does anyone mind if I just add them?" then I strongly suspect we would not be here now. These are good edits, but there is the issue of his apparent contempt for ArbCom - in as much as we have an authority, they are it. This time, he should be admonished, I think. Next time, if there is a next time, the cluebats should be wielded. Guy 20:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm afraid this is the next time Guy... as Dbiv's already been previously blocked for editing on the article in question. I believe that's why we're having this discussion now. (→Netscott) 20:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggesting changes on the talk page can be time consuming and inconvenient. Copying an article to your userspace, editing it to your hearts content, and asking someone to copy it back to the main article when you are done, is not as inconvenient. NoSeptember 21:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a classic case of WP:IAR, in its proper and pure sense - ignore rules that get in the way of improving the encyclopedia (which is why we are here, dammit - or at least should be the reason we are here: Misplaced Pages is not an exercise in democracy, a justice system, a bizarre form of nomic, or a thousand and one other things - it is an project to build an encyclopedia).

Without exploring the reasons why, the active members of the ArbCom (blessings be upon them) have banned him from editing the article. Fair enough. If he edits the article, he could face punitive sanctions. However, so long as he is making bona-fide edits to improve the article (and all observers agree, as far as I can see, that this is the case here) then there is no need to punish him for breaching the ArbCom ruling. It is simply bizarre that positive improvements should be reverted as a result of an ArbCom ruling. If someone - anyone - thinks that his edits cease to be improvements, he should be sanctioned. IMHO, E&OE, YMMV, HTH, HAND.-- ALoan (Talk) 21:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• It is not our place to overrule ArbCom. I think ArbCom and Jimbo are the outer limits of IAR, and we step beyond them at our peril. It's one thing to make suggestions that Arbcom change their decision or appeal to Jimbo, and quite another to ignore their decisions. We have ArbCom and Jimbo, we admit that they may not always be right, but as a basis of editing on the site, we should accept them as having authority on these matters. People who don't like that and won't live with it (or successfully get them to change their mind) can fork. --Improv 22:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• Just a small reminder here... this isn't about overturning an ArbCom decision but about presenting a community consensus (if one exists) to ArbCom for consideration relative to User:Dbiv editing the Peter Tatchell article. (→Netscott) 22:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• I am not suggesting that we ignore or overrule or overturn a decision of ArbCom. I am suggesting that ArbCom can not seriously have intended that their decisions would have the effect of making the encylopedia worse, and that we should interpret their decisions in a way that does not have that effect. Jimbo is another matter: I leave the interpretation of his often-Delphic comments to our high priests and priestesses. -- ALoan (Talk) 22:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• I have to agree, if someone fail to live up to restrictions plased on them by the Arbcom then by all means block them temporarily for increasingly long periods. However we should never remove good content as a way to "punish" the user who added it. --Sherool (talk) 23:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• I agree, it seems unbelievably petty. We should not confuse the issue of User:Dbiv's actions in respect of ArbCom and the quality of the article. MikeHobday 07:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Accusation of sockpuppetry

To whom it may concern:

I opened an account on Misplaced Pages today (9/9/2006 U.S. EST) and shortly afterwards was accused of being a sockpuppet of some other individual(s) -- who evidently is/are malfeasants of some sort -- by one User:Demiurge, who has taken it on him/herself to delete all my edits (except one, see below re Robin Livingstone).

I used the (helpme) function and received this reply:

"Well since I have no way of verifying the truth of otherwise of if you really only started today (From my perspective someone who genuinely started today would say that, but so would someone who is trying to pretend they only started today). I suggest you discuss it with the person who believes you are a sockpuppet, I have no magic wand to make them believe differently." -- User:pgk 15:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I contacted the individual (User:Demiurge) making the charges against me explaining that I was not who he evidently is mistaking me for, but as of the last time I checked I have not heard back from him/her - evidently he/she does not deign to communicate with me.

This boils down to some unfortunate coincidence:

a) My ISP is similar to some malfeasants, but all I can say, not being a computer systems expert, is that I live in Manhattan, NY, in a building filled with people with computers, some of whom undoubtedly use Misplaced Pages.

b) My new page edit (Robin Livingstone) was not deleted or recommended for deletion, and a former editor of that exact same page was none other than User:pgk -- talk about coincidences!! And why did not User:Demiurge recommend that page for deletion, perhaps he liked its contents, which would indicate extreme subjectivity and abuse of power (although what power he has as a non-administrator is not clear to me, as a first time user).

c) User:pgk referred to my "apparent familiarity with Misplaced Pages" as a point which denigrates my credibility. This is absurd. I have friends who use Misplaced Pages and the basics of editing are not hard to grasp, although obviously not everyone has the proper temperament. As to the voluminous rules and regulations of Misplaced Pages, I am afriad I have barely made a dent in such lengthy reading material. I have a relatively short attention span.

In sum, I do not believe my edits should be vandalized by someone who simply suspects something, and I believe that there should be a checks and balances system to force him to reverse his destructive ways and desist until he is authorized to do what he/she is doing (he is not an administrator, which I have discerned from his/her own userpage).

Thanks for your help in this matter.

Jerry Garcia was the greatest 16:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a pretty clear cut case of sockpuppetry. For the evidence see his talk page. Another question I wonder is how did you find the Incidents noticeboard with no prior knowledge of Misplaced Pages beforehand? — The Future 18:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

That's not to mention that his first edit ever was to his userpage and said "Today (September 9, 2006) is my first day on Misplaced Pages; hope it isn't also my last." I think an indef and a checkuser is in order here. --Rory096 19:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, and took care of the first part. --InShaneee 22:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Vicente Fox

Unfortunately, when CBDunkerson reverted and protected Vicente Fox to its current version, the version he used had vandalism on it. Would an admin please remove "blah blah blah" from the article? It's about midway down, try ctrl+F. Thanks. (If my talkpage wasnt protected, I wouldnt have to evade this block) freestylefrappe 21:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• For heaven's sake, pick an account and stick with it. Mackensen (talk) 21:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I took care of the 'blahs'... and cut the guy some slack. Now we're criticizing him for pointing out overlooked vandalism? --CBD 22:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm criticizing him for using an alternate account to evade a block. I'm also tired of him popping up every month or two with a different account. Mackensen (talk) 23:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Indef blocked user JB196 using AOL sock puppets

JB196 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who was indefblocked recently for trouble making, harrassment, insulting of editors and admins and ignoring all warnings has begun to use sock puppets to continue his crusade to get his own articles deleted by spamming citation templates to information he himself posted, most specifically Vic Grimes and Texas Wrestling Academy.

205.188.116.195 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

152.163.101.11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

152.163.100.136 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

I won't go into the saga of JB as it would include just about every admin page, several articles and several talk pages but suffice to say he's never going to learn. –– Lid 02:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

205.188.116.11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) - new puppet –– Lid 03:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Just a note that this notice was blanked by 205.188.116.65 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) recently who I am assuming is another sock. –– Lid 04:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why I forgot this as I though it was odd but before I noticed the changes to the pages I received a test4 warning on my talk page from a random AOL IP for no reason, 205.188.117.11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). I didn't put 2 and 2 together until now and am assuming it's another puppet. –– Lid 04:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, 152.163.100.65 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) tried blanking this notice . Perhaps yet another sock? --physicq210 05:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Another two socks 205.188.117.12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 205.188.116.196 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). –– Lid 05:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous 152.163.100.8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). –– Lid 05:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

And more

152.163.100.11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

152.163.101.5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Also another attempt to blank the section here. I don't think he liked the fact I added the story to WP:LAME–– Lid 14:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It goes on and on and on and on - 152.163.100.133 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). –– Lid 15:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

And yet another blanking: 64.12.116.65 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). --physicq210 21:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Instead of listing a bunch of AOL IPs that'll probably just change, can't you just ask for semiprotection on the affected pages? —Whomp t/c 21:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Um, I'm not involved in the dispute, but just reverting and reporting blankings of this notice. Other people/parties are involved in whatever dispute they are having. --physicq210 21:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Done, but I also think the use of AOL sock puppets by a banned user to the admins needed reporting which is why I posted it here. –– Lid 01:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Just a report that this was blanked for the fourth or fifth time . –– Lid 04:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Privacy Issue  ?

In User:Essjay/Archives/41 under the heading "User:Compaquser" a real name of a person was written against Wikipedias Privacy Policy and under "The "right to vanish" Policy by User: Kirjtc2 on August 4,2006 . This should be erased as the policy should be enforced. Especially if they have departed Misplaced Pages . I find this to be a poor repesentation of Misplaced Pages .--204.225.122.150 23:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

What do you need an admin for? Remove it yourself. --Golbez 01:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

No, please don't edit material in other people's User space. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, he removed it anyway. Essjay hasn't been around in a long time and I was about to do it myself, as I think he more or less trust me. I would recommend not reverting unless Essjay wants to himself. It's pretty small potatoes all in all. Thatcher131 (talk) 03:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Cgordonbell

Based on their edits and their non-response to my question posed on their talk page, I'd assume this isn't actually C. Gordon Bell, which would make this an inappropriate user name. Reported by: Atlant 00:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• The editor has not made any edits since the question was posted on 7 Sept. It is possible that he is away now, so not having answered yet doesn't mean that there will not be a response. Reviewing the edits, none seem malicious — in fact, all seem well informed. I'm inclined to wait. — ERcheck (talk) 01:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

About the AfD debate for Ousmane Zongo and user Giuliani Time

I know that AfD debates are not the bastion of civility and proper conduct and I tend to accept that. But somehow this particular debate just really got to me. The article concerns Ousmane Zongo an innocent man who was shot and killed by the NYPD. I was not aware of this incident and in fact his story is beyond the point. However user Giuliani Time (talk · contribs · count) nominated him by stating "The only tragedy here is for P.O. Brian Conroy (the officer who shot the man). We don't need articles about every stupid perp who gets killed". The rest of the debate also included outrageous comments by Spring3100 (talk · contribs · count) (who also seems to have a pro-police agenda), Noodles the Clown (talk · contribs · count) and Never forget the 343 (talk · contribs · count). Sockpupettry is also likely, see e.g. Kevlar 42 (talk · contribs · count) and AC Ginger Ale (talk · contribs · count).

Of course, there are bad faith nominations in AfD every day and so the Misplaced Pages world turns. But there was something in the viciousness of the language which I believe requires action from administrators and this has not been the case so far (for all I know). I'd like to add that I was not alone in my disgust at reading this debate and another editor in fact sent me a sympathy note on my talk page and I would be surprised if we were the only two editors to react in this way. Pascal.Tesson 00:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• I agree, which is why I didn't vote in that AfD. Danny Lilithborne 01:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• This is a clear case of bad faith agenda pushing, as well as demonising and skewing the facts to get the result wanted. Even if the article doesn't meet notability, as some of the more coherent delete nominations have said, the problem still lies on the fact that the AFD began in bad faith and should be speedily kept as such. A second AFD can take place after that in good faith, but this current one is based on POV pushing, slander and sock puppets. –– Lid 02:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Possible sockpuppet of Cute 1 4 u

Hello I believe that this user New York from Flavor of Love may be this indefinatly blocked user Cute 1 4 u. Check this dif and talk page Leroyencyclopediabrown for the possible proof. If I'm wrong on this I appolize in advance but Cute 1 4 u does have a history of sock puppet and ban evasion. Æon _EA! 02:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

In addition I once I commented on that user being suspicious the comments that were made by New York from Flavor of Love were removed. Æon _EA! 02:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but this looks somewhat similar (Cute 1 4 u did once create an account impersonating Raven Symone). I'd file a RFCU. --Coredesat talk. o_O 02:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought about it, thanks I will should I post the findings here or will not not be needed? Æon _EA! 02:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Any findings in the RFCU should probably be posted here unless it comes back positive and she's indef-blocked right then and there. But it looks somewhat definitive, looking at the user's edit history. --Coredesat talk. o_O 02:39, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Coredesat. I caught one of hers last week and the writing style is VERY similar to here other socks. I will post the finding once they come in. Æon _EA! 02:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The account *could* be blocked per WP:USERNAME I think... "New York" was in fact the nickname given to a real contestant on the first season of Flavor of Love (generally only the nicknames were used on the show) and thus this name more-or-less falls afoul of the "Names of well-known living people" clause. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

After looking at the userpage and what BoG said, I decided to issue the username block. User:Zscout370 04:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it absurd how much people-power is being thrown at stopping an alleged 11 year old female sockpuppeteer from "abusing" Misplaced Pages as a social network? --  Netsnipe  ►  04:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I take it from your use of quotation marks that you disagree with the characterization of social networking as an abuse of Misplaced Pages? Choess 06:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, based on this diff and the message the most current IP placed on Leroy's talk page, it's definitely her. She thinks she can hide stuff by deleting it. Ryūlóng 06:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, just call me Ed.=) I apologize to everyone who has been trying to contact me overnight. I (obviously) was sleeping. Anyway, I think that Cute 1 4 u should be given one more chance. Two reasons for this. First of all, she doesn't have to keep making new accounts just to prove her point. Second, it removes the hassle of blocking EVERY SINGLE account she makes. We all know she's going to make more and more accounts.--Ed 12:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, she was blocked for Sockpuppet abuse, impersation, Vandalism and the 11 year old part was just added ammo to the case. And the Check user came up possitive. Æon _EA! 18:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

New York from Flavor of Love and 75.34.176.105 have both been blocked indef as sockpuppets, although I thought that IPs shouldn't be blocked indefinitely. Was there an exception made? --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 18:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Banned user Daniel Brandt making anon edits

69.149.104.45 (talk · contribs) is making talk-page postings claiming to be Daniel Brandt (talk · contribs), who has been banned for legal threats. *Dan T.* 03:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Dealt with. JoshuaZ 03:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Another one: 69.149.104.17 (talk · contribs) *Dan T.* 05:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

And blocked. Would anyone object to a range block of 69.149.104.*? JoshuaZ 06:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

*looks around* I don't see any objections :) — The Future 07:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

BLP official policy: "While Misplaced Pages discourages people from writing new articles about themselves or expanding existing ones significantly, subjects of articles remain welcome to edit articles to correct inaccuracies, to remove inaccurate or unsourced material, or to remove libel." This policy appears to be a smokescreen. At the very minimum, there is no enforcement, and no provision for redress if a subject of an article feels that he is prevented from implementing the policy. There are numerous admins on Misplaced Pages who contend that a banned user who is the subject of an article forfeits this welcome, and has no right to "correct inaccuracies, to remove inaccurate or unsourced material, or to remove libel." That makes this BLP a dead letter, and it isn't worth the pixels it takes to display it. Remember, it takes only one admin to ban a user forever. I was banned by Gamaliel on April 5, 2006 because I was trying to explain that a new federal criminal law affects many Misplaced Pages editors. I appealed my ban to the mailing list and have proof that my appeal was received, but my appeal was ignored. I have been repeatedly reverted while attempting to correct information on my article. --Daniel Brandt 68.90.165.190 14:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

This IP has been temporarily blocked to implement the ban on Daniel Brandt. Gwernol 14:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Edit warring on Jews for Jesus

Could someone (other than admins already involved) pleased review the Jews for Jesus. Most editors haven't violated 3RR, but there's been a lot of edit warring and reverting without discussion. Even some experienced admins appear to be warring there. Justforasecond 04:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't really see any issues with our current administrative response. The article is, and will continue to be, a hot button issue for many editors. Our best course of action is to encourage discussion between editors, and invoke appropriate sanctions against those (from either side) who knowingly violate policy. alphaChimp 05:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I second that. An alternative (or complementary) solution would be to just take it through the dispute resolution process. It seems more like a content dispute, which doesn't really belong on this noticeboard. --physicq210 05:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree Alphachimp. Editors that discuss civilly are fine, but those editors violating policy, such as edit warring or incivility should be sanctioned to prevent this from continuing any further. Justforasecond 05:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

To that end, I'd encourage you to report any editors violating policy to the appropriate venue (e.g. WP:AN3). It doesn't matter if said editors are admistrators. alphaChimp 06:02, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh I'd be happy to but I couldn't find a noticeboard for edit warring? Justforasecond 06:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Violations of WP:3RR go to WP:AN3. Pages needing protection from vandalism go to WP:RFPP. You might also be interested in checking out WP:DR. alphaChimp 06:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks -- is this the correct place for edit warring? (edit warring that doesn't reach the "electrified fence" of 3RR?) Justforasecond 06:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

One doesn't have to make 4 reverts to violate 3RR. WP:3RR mentions that editors skirting around the policy either by using a different account or by reverting exactly 3 times repeatedly may be deemed to be in violation. The policy itself explains it better. WP:AN3 would be the correct place for such reports :) Crimsone 06:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I've just pulled up the exact quote - The policy states that an editor must not perform more than three reversions, in whole or in part, on a single Misplaced Pages article within a 24 hour period. This does not imply that reverting three times or fewer is acceptable. In excessive cases, people can be blocked for edit warring or disruption even if they do not revert more than three times per day. --Crimsone 06:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Bertilvidet and Khoikhoi gang up against contibutions

National Security Council and National Security Council (Turkey)

1. I am filing a complaint against Bertilvidet for reverting contributions to the above article on 9/9/06 without any respect to the content matter or the quality of a contribution by another party on the same day, but only on the basis of his egotistic territorialism. He, as a non-national antagonist, continously practices similar behaviour on a number of Turkey and Turkish related articles, related to Turkish institutions, both military and non-military, enforcing his political opinions with ethnic and cultural bias with the purpose of degradation. Attempts to restore objectivity and fair and valuable knowledge content in the articles that are majorly distorted with his political commentaries have repeatedly been a failure because of his unexplainable obsessive reversals of the content matter as well as his solitacion of performing the same vandalism on his behalf by some other cooperating buddies such as the user Khoikhoi. A smilar and serious prevention on their part of the improvement of the content matter took place on August 18, 2006 at the article National Security Council (Turkey), violating Misplaced Pages rules enforcing no reversal by the same administrator recurrently, in addition to not allowing any other party to contribute to those article s in a fair way. They did not only fail to recognize the contibutions in good faith but collectively called fair changes 'vandalism' to maintain their hegemony. I sincerely hope you will be able to prevent them continuing with this kind of disruptive behaviour.Thank you for your time and support in advance

2. I am filing a complaint against the administrator / contibutor named Khoikhoi for vandalising links at the article "Turkey" in a recurrent and disruptive manner, ruling out comments and requests given to him as "trolling" and "rant", also deleting them along with the links that he vandalisez. He is assisted in his activities by Bertilvidet. Please see the Turkey article and its talk history for details. The request I make from you is identical to the immediately one above. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rednblu (talk • contribs)

Please be aware that these pages aren't the place to bring disputes over content, or reports of abusive behaviour — we aren't referees, and have limited authority to deal with abusive editors. We have a dispute resolution procedure which we recommend you follow. Please take such disputes to mediation, requests for comment, or requests for arbitration rather than here. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I was referred to you by one of the resources you suggest. (pls.see below) I will also post to the others as you recommended.

"Your edits on Requests for arbitration: Hi, I removed your requests because they appear to be malformed. Please ensure that earlier stages of Dispute resolution have been followed and failed. If there is a simple problem of disruptive behavior, consider making a complaint on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents because this gets a much quicker response in cases that are clear and need immediate action. " --Tony Sidaway 03:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, as it says at the top of the page, this is the right page to place an informal complaint. After reviewing the pages in question my guess is that specifically you are objecting to reversions like this being called 'reversion of vandalism' and this being called 'reversion of commercial link spamming'... complete with accompanying warnings on user talk pages. I would have to agree that both of those instances seem like content / NPOV disputes rather than anything close to vandalism or spamming. The 'vandalism' claim seems to be founded on 'blanking of material', but I do not believe that was ever meant to apply to situations where someone removes some materials and adds others in a clearly 'good faith' attempt to make improvements (from their perspective) to the encyclopedia. I would have some NPOV concerns with the text that was being reverted, but NPOV disputes are explicitly not vandalism and ought to be discussed on the article talk pages... where I see little or no commentary on these issues. However, in like kind their actions are not 'vandalism' either. People on both sides of these disputes should stop reverting and start discussing. Use the article talk pages. Use edit summaries other than blank, 'rv', or the 'rollback' text. Basic communication and good faith efforts to resolve disagreements... rather than edit warring and accusations based on mis-application of policy. I may have missed something, for instance you specifically said to review Talk:Turkey but when I did so I could find nothing on this subject of link removal (though I did notice Bertilvidet calling someone "Crazy boy" and then 'warning' them about civility and personal attacks)... but overall it seems that there have not been any significant efforts to discuss these disagreements. --CBD 12:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Why are you posting this here? Dispute resolution is ↔ over there. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Ericsaindon2 evading block again

Arbcom banned Ericsaindon2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is back using another anonymous IP at 69.230.41.31 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). -- Gogo Dodo 05:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Noticed and dealt with, via another ban reset. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 09:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Shangwen Fang

A new user, Prior400 (talk · contribs), whom I suspect to be Shangwen Fang himself (due to his claims of familiarity with Fang's family history and career), has been removing large chunks of references to a cat abuse incident that Fang became infamous for, while adding POV statements praising Fang. I've removed a large number of them while trying to restore NPOV-ness, but I'd like folks to look at the article as well as the history to see if protect is warranted/necessary. (I do not feel comfortable protecting the article myself.) --Nlu (talk) 06:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

If anyone's willing to look at this with a different set of eyes -- please also review whether the unsourced sections (that Prior400 introduced, and which I tried to NPOV-ize) should stay at all. --Nlu (talk) 06:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Piotr Blass

Piotr Blass (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (and anonymously under 69.163.189.9 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)) has been consistantly been recreating articles about himself in the mainspace for the past few months, beginning with Piotr Blass, going to Piotr blass, and currently at Piotrek Blass and now and Piotrus Blass. Something needs to be done about this editor, who has recreated this article over nine ten times, once after userfying, and once after an AFD. This is getting ridiculous now. Ryūlóng 06:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Then shouldn't he be warned (if not blocked) for blatant disruption? --physicq210 06:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)¢

I have just done so now. Ryūlóng 06:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Kyereh Mireku

Kyereh Mireku (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has once, again, tried to get a bot created, including making a userpage for it, even when it is not even registered or scripted, or approved in anyway on WP:BOT. This time, it is User:MayorBot. Ryūlóng 08:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Couldn't find any evidence of User:MayorBot, account actually being created so I've tagged the page User:MayorBot for speedy deletion.--Andeh 12:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

God...Now he's gone back and made another pointless template. This kid is way too young to be doing much of anything on Misplaced Pages; he has not been listening to our warnings, and continues to edit unconstructively. Ryūlóng 21:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Google bug sufferer requests assistance

Could someone revert the Jainism article, which has in the last few minutes has been vandalized, my browser has the google bug problem, so unfortunately, I'm unable. Thanks, Addhoc 12:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Addhoc 13:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Entry for St Mary the Virgin, Ewell

Please ring me to discuss the wiki entry for the church on <phone number redacted> It would be appropriate to delete this, once actioned.

Thanks

Church Webmaster

Is this about the vandalism to Church of St. Mary the Virgin, Ewell and Organ of St. Mary the Virgin, Ewell by a now-banned user? If so, that has been fixed. Guy 14:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• I did notice an uncited negative statement on the page about the organ, which I removed. Demiurge 14:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I suggest deleting the phone number quickly. (I'm not an admin so I won't do it myself.) Newyorkbrad 14:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Commercial Spam

In article Erotic sexual denial, Mskatrina, also as user:66.27.70.252 has repeatedly inserted the link to her commercial web page, Erotic teasings

I count at least twenty times between 9 july and 9 sep, each of them reverted by various people.

I also see a few instances where the user removed what appears to be commercial links of "competitors". They probably also did not belong there, but shows that the user clearly knows that commercial links are not allowed.

User:Mdwh made a note on the talk page on 17 August: "See Misplaced Pages:External_links. In particular, note "blogs and forums should generally not be linked to", and see the note about requiring registration. I'll remove these links for now, please explain why if you disagree. Mdwh 00:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)"

A gave her a friendly warning on 6 September, see User_talk:Mskatrina, partial quote:
"Also see item #4 "# Links that are added to promote a site, that primarily exist to sell products or services, with objectionable amounts of advertising, or that require payment to view the relevant content, colloquially known as external link spamming. If you continue to add this kind of commercial link, eventually an administrator will take action, and block you."

The talk page has a note where she responded Talk:Erotic_sexual_denial, a partial quote, "Misplaced Pages offers a valuable service to me. I would like people to come to my site and Misplaced Pages is a great way to get people interested in erotic sexual denial to come to it.

My issue with the administrators is if anybody can edit the paper, then anybody can edit the rules. I don't think that by any means am I disabiding by the rules. The page that I have is an erotic denial website. I have people that email me everyday because they are locked up by the lock on my site, and people are generally gracious. I have adwords to get traffic to the site, and I have advertisements to pay for the advertsiing."

Atom 14:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added the page and her to my watchlist and will keep an eye out. I think there is also a blacklist for links on mediawiki, but I can't help you there. Yanksox 15:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

If the spamming persists, I would talk to Naconkantari, since he maintains the MediaWiki spam blacklist and can add the offending links. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 17:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

While she's actually debating with other editors, she still seems to be just spaming articles. --Charlesknight 17:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I've submitted the block request on Meta. Either Naconkantari or MaxSem usually gets to them within a day. Fan-1967 17:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Stalking incident, Need immediate help

I have a SERIOUS stalking problem. A user, User:Peartdrumsticks,who started as a GIPU, and then registered, who kept adding a commercial link to the page Rush (band) and Neil Peart, and whose links were repeatedly reverted out, began confronting the editors removing it, on their pages. I asked him to stop, because he was acting quite hostile. He re-edited a single comment time after time to reflect whatever new wording he wanted to use to seem innocent, even after I'd replied. When told how to communicate on a wiki talk page, with multiple entries, he became MORE hostile, and told me he'd edit however he wanted. I told him I was done talking about the issue because of his hostility, and I placed all his harrassment into a single archive, found here User_talk:ThuranX/Special_archive_1. He was asked again to stop, and I continued to add his material to this archive. things kept getting worse, and I decided the best thing would be to tell him that anythign further would result in me seeking administrative help. I soon had to, and went here Wikipedia_talk:No_personal_attacks#Harassment. This still wasn't enough. This mornign I received an E-mail from him. He titled it 'Batman', and the message body was 'hello ThuranX' and a big smiley face. I can ONLY take this as a serious and possibly criminal stalking action, as it means he had to track down my alias by searching the internet for ways to find and contact me. The 'batman' reference I believe refers to his 'detective skills.' He has requested total removal from Misplaced Pages under the 'right to vanish' policy. I take this entire action as a criminal act of stalking, and I want to know HOW I can deal with a wikipedian so angry he can't make money here that he's taken to stalking me outside of Misplaced Pages. I also do NOT want his account entirely deleted, so that if needed, the material is available for law enforcement research purposes. Please respond promptly, because I'd really rather not have to go to the local police for assistance with this stalker. Thank you. ThuranX 15:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate username?

According to Misplaced Pages:Username, names "mentioning or referring to illnesses, disabilities, or conditions (e.g. AIDS, Amputation, Asperger syndrome, etc.)" are not allowed. EBOLA rulez (talk · contribs) seems to be a pretty open and shut case. However, this user seems to have been on board for quite some time, without any problems. I'm therefore bringing it up at this noticeboard. Is action needed on this user? Aecis 15:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

If they're good-faith, just kindly ask them to change usernames, imo. – Chacor 15:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. I think somone that actually has ebola would be pretty pissed about that username.--KojiDude 16:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

If they have ebola, they won't be pissed about it for too long. Raul654 18:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for the advise. Aecis 16:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering... Could 'EBOLA' all caps, refer to something else? a music group or club? Given that that's a lithuanian user, what happens if 'EBOLA' is a town name or music group or school club? (No, really. How does wikipolicy handle things where there's clearly two words of the same spelling that mean different things? (good example i learned in spanish class... queso is cheese in spanish, but donkey in italian) ThuranX 16:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

True, but would we allow a user with the name of Fucking, Austria? --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 18:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't know. A user whose IP showed he was a resident thereof, and who contributed to articles about the region, migth be entirely appropriate. really, we could have argued 100 years ago that your name was wrong, because lefthandedness was considered undesirable, if not outright evil in some areas. The level of potential offense out to be wieghed in the situation. ThuranX 18:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Heh, good point. But, as most users here speak English as a first or second language, we should probably disallow names that are offensive to English speakers, even if unintentionally. For example, there were a slew of usernames a few weeks ago that were obviously offensive, but the owner claimed that they meant legitimate things in other languages. It was obvious nonsense, but even if it were true, they should still be blocked, because no one wants to see a User:FUCK SHIT POO in the edit history, regardless of what it means in some obscure Asian language. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 18:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

User seems to have taken this in stride, and has already put in a change-of-name request. Newyorkbrad 18:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think many admins / policymakers around here get way too fussy and prissy with "offensive name" rules (despite the fact that "Misplaced Pages is not censored for minors"). Does it really matter so much that somebody picks a name that pisses off some easily-offended prude? Even worse is when people who aren't offended themselves still take it onto themselves to be offended on behalf of hypothetical other people for whom the name might arguably be a slur or obscenity. This is speaking as a person so boring I almost always use my first initial and last name as username / handle on practically all sites, including this one... but I still have a "live and let live" attitude over others' handles. *Dan T.* 18:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet of Indef Banned editor

Hello Admins, the banned editor User:Tallboydoctorpepper and User:Tallboydoctorpepperthesecond has surfaced again as the imaginatively monikered User:Tallboydoctorpepperthethird and has already indulged in some minor vandalism. Rockpocket 18:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked indef. Naconkantari 19:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

User is refusing to talk

User:KarlBunker reverted my good faith edits to telepathy, and deleted my message asking why. He reverted me agian, violating 3RR, whitch I'll report later. If he refuses to talk and continues to POV Push, what can I do? -- Selmo 18:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

We have ways of making him talk. Seriously, though, I believe short blocks can be handed out to stubbornly uncommunicative users. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 18:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

And this is on telepathy? Maybe he's trying to make a point... Tom Harrison 18:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Somebody try and contact the two parties telepathically to work it out! *Dan T.* 18:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I've left him a polite note telling him to discuss the conflict, hopefully he doesn't remove that one, too. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 19:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Sargonious' vandalism/trolling

Can someone please block Khoi Khoi (talk · contribs) and Shazuko (talk · contribs)? It appears that both of these users are sockpuppets of Sargonious (talk · contribs), who was recently blocked by FayssalF for a week. During his block, he has continued to evade it almost every single day... I'd just appreciate it if some admin action could be taken here. Thanks. —Khoikhoi 18:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Both done Jaranda 18:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that was really fast. I also think it's high time that someone look into Sargonious being blocked for a longer period of time, as he clearly hasn't improved his behavior since last week... —Khoikhoi 18:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Guillen, WP:NLT, WP:NPA

Please see and Special:Contributions/Guillen. This use has been blocked before for personal attacks and is back at it again. His repeated attacks on my faith are getting old. Could I request that an administrator deal with it accordingly? BigDT 19:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I blocked indef, was an sock master, and came back for obvious personal attacks, just an troll. Jaranda 19:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Block uncivil user.

I ask yet again to have LGagnon permanently blocked for incivility and a disgraceful failure to assume good faith.

When I correct his teeming logical fallacies, not to mention his appalling grammar, disgraceful typos and related stylistic infelicities, he resorts to accusations of personal attack. The attack is about the low quality of what he has to say, and how he says it, not about him.

He has been just as foul in referring to Admins as "vandal coddling." Yet no action is taken against him.

Most bizarre of all, I am repeatedly told that "under no circumstance does another editor's behavior excuse repeated incivility of your own." Has LGagnon, who repeatedly achieves blocks against me, ever been told -- even once --: "No matter how uncivil AOluwatoyin is to you, under no circumstances does that excuse repeated incivility to AOluwatoyin"?

Why have I never -- not once -- been upheld in an appeal to block LGagnon? AOluwatoyin 20:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• If as I noticed 3 different admins block you for the same thing, you might want to rethink your behavior. By the way, none of them were LGagnon. If you want to get him blocked, you should provide us with some evidence of the accusations you made using diffs. - Mgm| 21:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree with MacGyverMagic's comments. If you want administrators to review LGagnon's incivility, you need to provide evidence. Ironically, you have provided clear evidence of your incivility in your note above. — ERcheck (talk) 22:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Name pages and disambiguation

(originally posted on enwiki mailing list, where it was suggested I place it here)

About a week ago, User:JHunterJ revised Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages) and then began making sitewide changes to articles on human names based on his revisions:

"People who happen to have the same given name should not be listed on a disambiguation page for that name unless they happen to be very frequently referred to simply by the given name (e.g., Beyoncé, Regis). If the name is uncommon enough for such a list to be maintainable (and if it would otherwise meet the WP:LIST guidelines), consider creating the page List of people named Title instead."

I have found that a few name pages I monitor with lists of people by name are magnets for occasional vanity additions, and more common names will have very long lists. However, such lists seem useful and interesting for causal readers, so I'm wondering what people think about balancing utility (especially for causal readers) and page size? Right now the lists are being removed entirely instead of being moved to List of people named___. This has led to protests by some editors, and he's only part way into the A names (actually, I just checked and he's now into B names).

My concern is that a lot of information is being removed when he implements these changes. Sometimes he's adding {{Lookfrom}}, sometimes not, but many of the articles with lists had explanatory information, not just a list. At the very least, I'd like to see that information moved to another page rather than deleted outright. I have asked him to hold off until a few more people had a chance to weigh in, but he has decided to continue. Thoughts? Jokestress 20:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

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