Misplaced Pages

Talk:Al-Karaji

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Paramandyr (talk | contribs) at 17:32, 13 October 2014. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 17:32, 13 October 2014 by Paramandyr (talk | contribs)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
WikiProject iconBiography Stub‑class
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
StubThis article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Note icon
An appropriate infobox may need to be added to this article. Please refer to the list of biography infoboxes for further information.
It is requested that an image or photograph of Al-Karaji be included in this article to improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.		Upload
WikiProject iconMiddle Ages Unassessed
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages
???This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Biography assessment rating comment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article.--KGV (Talk) 06:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

POV

We need Persian sources on him, not Greek and Arab --Kash 18:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

References

The standard approach is to place references at the end ("There are two basic formats for external links. The most common is to add a list of external links at the end of an article. Put here, in list form, any web sites that you have used or recommend for readers of the article. The standard format for these is to have a level 2 header (i.e. == Header ==) named "External links" followed by a bullet list of links." Misplaced Pages:External links); reverting that change with the misleading edit summary "don't remove references" isn't acceptable (especially when it includes a blind revert of other edits, such as tidying of the format of other references).

The second, less common, form is to embed the links in the text. Southern Comfort has done neither, but has used the less appropriate method of references. If there's a good reason for using anything other than the usual form, could the reasons be given here? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Al-Karaji is Persian

Numerous authoritative sources have been cited that Al-Karaji is Persian. Please don't replace Persian with Islamic, if you want to be "comprehensive and accurate". --ManiF 05:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

If he was born near florida he was probably not Persian, and I don't see any evidence refuting the claim that he was born in Karkh. Since it's not clear if he was Arab or Persian, it's better to just call him a Muslim mathematician. Aucaman 05:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Read the published sources provided, he was born in Karaj and he is clearly called a Persian. --ManiF 05:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
There's no evidence that he was born in Karaj. We don't even know his exact name! In any case the article says he could be from somewhere near Baghdad, and if this is true he's not Persian. Aucaman 05:36, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Again, read the published sources provided. According to most accounts, Al-Karaji was born in Karaj. Regardless, the place of birth is irrelevant to this discussion, as Baghdad at that time was a multicultural city with a large Persian population. And, according to all the reputable sources, Karaji was a Persian. --ManiF 05:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I changed "he was probably Persian" to "most sources identify him as being Persian" - both still do not state "he was Persian", which would be POV. Cheers, Khoikhoi 07:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why MaiF insists on reverting my version, given that I'm agreeing with him (fallout from a conflict at another article, perhaps?). The version that I'm trying to preserve didn't replace "Persian" with "Islamic", it retained the two designations, putting the former later, and in the context of the dispute about his nationality (whilst also clearly stating that the modern consensus is that he was Persian).
I've now tried to re-organise the article again, still trying to omit the rash of unnecessary and unsightly footnotes in the summary, and placing the references at the end. I've tried to incorporate some of Khoikoi's additions and compromises. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Mel, please assume good faith. This issue has nothing to do with fallout from a conflict at another article. I have no problem with your current version which states the facts about his ethnicity, I'm just going to replace "Islamic" with "Muslim" and tidy up the reference section, you have an online shop listed there and two references are listed on the same line. --ManiF 11:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I went to check the references, and I can't see either a commercial link or two references on the same line; are you thinking of an earlier version? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

http://binomial.csuhayward.edu is an online shop and a personal website. Also, the first two references are listed on the same line. --ManiF 12:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The first two references are now correctly formatted, but isn't a shop (I think that you've been confused by the jokey title). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Persian or Arab!?

There is a strong Persian presence in all these 'controversial' article that’s why the keep deleting every thing related to Arab people or Arabic language and sometimes Islam ....remember most of those 'Persian' scientists (if they all really were Persian) studied in Baghdad, Cairo or Damascus and the majority of their work (and sometimes all of it) has been written in ARABIC Under the Arab empire .Also in that time no one actually cared about being Persian or Arab they just say we are Muslims…..Aziz1005 00:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Well actuallly Neshapur and Baghdad were the big two and Baghdad was metropolitan. There is a lot of Arab scientists as well. Also the Abbassids were run by Persians vaziers and later on controlled by Buyids and Seljuqs. Note Arabs , Persians and etc.. all contributed to the Islamic civilization. But a person from karaj (part of modern Tehran now) is a Persian Muslim just like someone from Cairo is an Arab Muslim. و السلام . --alidoostzadeh 02:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
According to your logic, Ptolemy should be called an Arab Muslim (and everybody laughs ;-) The whole debate about Al-Karaji being Persian or Arab is total nonsense. Ethnicity is a modern nationalistic construct, and in lack of any evidence to what language the chap spoke with his mother I suggest Abbassid is the best compromise. Although the record is lacking, his working language must have been Arabic, like most of his contemporary scientists in the Abbassid empire. Cerniagigante (talk) 07:54, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

An explanation for the edit warring

I would strongly suggest user:Seanwal111111 bring whatever reasoning he has for removing sourced information, here, before removing sourced information again. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I already said it in my edit summary: the deleted edit is contrary to the guidelines on ethnicity and previous nationalities at Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style/Biographies. I have only reverted the edit once in the last 24 hours, but I've reverted it 3 times in the last 43 hours. I intend to hold off on reverting it again tonight but I'll revert it again tomorrow morning because it is clearly in violation of the MOS guidelines for the opening paragraph of biographies. I will add that I am motivated in part by my finding that content of the edit is a falsehood: I find there is truly zero historical evidence of what the ethnicity of Al-Karaji/Al-Karkhi was (and this total lack of evidence is reported by the well informed source at 1 and also 2). But the lack of evidence is ultimately beside the point because the MOS guideline is the trump card here. Here again is what the MOS guideline says about the lead paragraph of a biography:
Ethnicity... should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.... Birth and death places should be mentioned in the body if known, and in the lead if they are relevant to the person's notability; they should not be mentioned within the opening brackets.
Seanwal111111 (talk) 18:21, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

If i understand it correctly - by using your logic we should remove most if not all of the part where it mentions one ethnicity in articles, which is completely stupid. --Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust (talk) 11:06, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I am unconvinced. Your "sources" do not change what the source(Persian) you continue to remove through your disruptive behavior. Maybe you should read up on Misplaced Pages:POINT and Misplaced Pages:DISRUPT. Also, your "interpretation" of MOS is off.
"Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability."
Notability is dependent on source(s). Therefore, if a reliable source mentions al-Karaji's ethnicity we are required to mention it. Just as if the source mentions his sexuality, we would be required to mention it.
Your statement, "I find there is truly zero historical evidence of what the ethnicity of Al-Karaji/Al-Karkhi was (and this total lack of evidence is reported by the well informed source #1 and #2", is simply your opinion that those sources are "well informed" or there is "zero historical evidence"(which is original research). --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:32, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Categories:
Talk:Al-Karaji Add topic