Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Alex756 (talk | contribs) at 15:24, 3 February 2007 (Response to Qxz's statement). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Do you think it will really happen?

Since this is a subpage to your user page I am not going to make any changes without discussing them here first. I added some information on the Wikimedia Foundation page and a comment on the user page under "Fundraiser controversy" to point out some things about this abrupt change in the bylaws. I know that some WMF "Officials" feel that they gave adequate notice of Brad's unilateral revision of the bylaws that he did right after he came "on board" in June 2006 but this was also around the same time that Jimbo stated on the mailing list that he was hiring Brad so that Brad would "continue" to work with all the other pro bono lawyers of the foundation (like myself and Soufron for example). I may be wrong but I have no evidence that ever happened; what appears to have happened is that all legal work after that point was monopolized at HQ. What did happen for sure is that the bylaws were quickly rewritten without notice(I had originally written a provisional set of bylaws creating a membership organization that could be used to submit along with the IRS application for tax exempt status) and without any consultative committee or bylaw revision committee that is customary when such an event occurs so that a group of people can discuss the current bylaws before changing them or suggesting changes in order to analyze how the bylaws failed to function before making several proposals on new or amended bylaws. While it is true that the bylaws stated that they could be amended simply by the board of trustees I think there is an issue about members being given adequate notice of this change and that it not have been done just days before a fundraiser without any announcement or press release. As I also stated people contributed to WMF projects under a license that gave away most of their rights, they did that with the belief that they at least maintained membership rights in the organization that controlled those contributions and made them available to others to easily modify. Quaere: is the GFDL contingent upon the material representation of membership rights and can the unilateral denial of those rights lead to an invalidation of that license based upon misrepresentation?

Regarding your page I would also like to point out that the changes in the bylaws not only take away the right to vote but all rights (entitlements) and obligations (responsibilities) of "entrenched" representation. While the Board has passed some resolutions "promising" to include "community" members on future boards none of this is clearly defined (i.e. what is the so called community?). Also the idea that everyone who contributed was a member has been replaced that everyone is just a user, complete disenfranchisement. Members normally have a right to complain, to state grievances, etc. like in any "democratic" structure. Taking away the "rights" of members also takes away the board's direct "obligation" towards those members to be replaced with a vague idea that if someone is a "member" of the "community" somehow (without any formal procedure in place) their grievances will be responded to. My recent experience along these lines, as I told you on the telephone yesterday, was that the board and its members are generally unresponsive and getting in touch with a bunch of people who have delegated all their authority to a staff that routinely fails to return member phone calls is a royal waste of time unless you threaten to sue (strange that gets their attention when my idea when I first got involved was to create a membership structure that prevented anyone from filing suit in a court but the revision of the bylaws left that as an open option to anyone who has a grievance against the corporate structure).

I think the way to proceed is to start a new Association of Wikipedians and Wikimedians and it should be totally independent of the WMF servers, it should have its own structure, tax exempt status and should be a place where anyone who has contributed to WMF or any of its projects (not necessarily as a volunteer editor) should have a place to comment and critique what is going on in that organization without judgment or creating any kind of pressure on the individual participants to conform to the so-called ideals of WMF. Such a Union of Members could act as a real arena of reform that could exert positive influences on a culture that is become complicated, confusing and debilitating to true collaborative work.

I am also adding the following notice to my user page and I suggest that everyone do so as a sign of protest over what has happened:

Alex756 never thought when granting a GFDL license to the foundation that his membership rights would be unilaterally terminated and he hereby gives notice that he also revokes all GFDL and CC licenses due to said misrepresentation of the Board of Trustees (BoT) and herewith demands that all his contributions prior to this page be removed because they are infringements on his copyrights. Alex756 06:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, you can't do that. You agreed to license your work under the GFDL when you submitted it – Qxz 04:22, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

From Misplaced Pages:Copyrights: "You can later republish and relicense them in any way you like. However, you can never retract the GFDL license for the versions you placed here: that material will remain under GFDL forever." – Qxz 04:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Ha, ha, that is very funny. So you are saying that the board can take away membership without giving proper notice, fail to have annual meetings and they can break their own rules but the rest of us peons have to do something because they said so? This is exactly the problem. I made all those contributions because I thought I was part of an association of people whose voices would be guaranteed by legal means, now those legal rights have been taken away from me, the social contract has been smashed, not by me, but by them. They revoke my membership, I revoke my license, it is that simple. Alex756 15:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

misunderstanding?

I believe there were never actually any members. I think I read about this on the foundation-l mailing list some time ago...This is what I remember reading: The different membership classes only indicate potential members, for instance "CONTRIBUTING ACTIVE MEMBERSHIP" would be only for contributors but no contributors were ever given this membership. The reason the membership section was removed is because is was not being used, it was just a relic. Its removal does not change anything. You never were a member in the first place. S Sepp 17:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC) edit: I remember where I heard this. It was on an episode of the wikipedia weekly podcast. S Sepp 17:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC) edit 2: It seems it is more complex than I thought. S Sepp 20:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this is all a misunderstanding. I suggest you contact a memeber of the Board if you want a full explanation – Qxz 18:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

There were never actually members? What about elected member representatives? They had elections and you had to have a certain number of edits to vote? How can there not be members? The old bylaws clearly stated: "All active members shall have the right to vote in this Foundation at any membership vote for Member Representative to the Board of Trustees." The fact that the board never seemed to follow its duty to create a membership fee or a membership application (you could suggest that becoming a user was a membership application and the board decided to waive the fee or set the fee to zero) does not negate membership rights. The right to vote for representation, the right to know what the board is doing, attend meetings, be active in the association. As far as "volunteer active members" the old bylaws said the following:

B. VOLUNTEER ACTIVE MEMBERSHIP:

This membership shall be open to all persons interested in supporting the activities of the foundation who have contributed under a user name to any Wikimedia project prior to the election ballot request deadline. The board may set minimum contribution requirements for the purpose of eliminating fraudulent votes. Volunteer Active Members shall have all the privileges of Contributing Active Members. Volunteer Active Members are automatically qualified to vote, do not need to register as a member prior to voting, and can opt out of membership at any time.

As it clearly states all volunteer active member does not have to pay dues, or do anything, they were automatically entitled to vote.

I am saying these things because I wrote these bylaws with Jimbo Wales, I don't think anyone on the board knows as much about them as I do. To my recollection I never stated that there were no volunteer active members. If you have any indication otherwise, please be specific about your sources. Alex756 18:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

You obviously know a lot more about this than I do. I will just refer to my source in case you are interested. It is in Misplaced Pages Weekly episode 6 at time 28:40 where they talk about members and the bylaws. A semiquote from there "to the best of my knowledge there is some dispute about whether no person or one person has completed the process". The podcast can be downloaded here. I will leave this discussion now. S Sepp 19:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I listened to this podcast and there is some talk about the Contributing Active Membership category which required an application and the payment of a membership fee and it is suggested that only one person "joined" in that category. The other (and most common) type of membership was opened to all members and was what was used as the basis of voting rights during all the annual election meetings that we held annually as required by the Florida statutes and the bylaws; as the quote from the bylaws shows (it is highlighted) no membership application or other formality was necessary for that to be done. Alex756 20:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be concerned that you've lost your right to vote in something. The only Foundation-related thing that there has ever been voting for is the elections for Board membership. Observe: http://meta.wikimedia.org/Elections_for_the_Board_of_Trustees_of_the_Wikimedia_Foundation — there are no plans to discontinue this. What exactly is the issue? – Qxz 03:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

In fact, the bylaws agree with this too. Observe: http://wikimediafoundation.org/Wikimedia_Foundation_bylaws#ARTICLE_IV_-_THE_BOARD_OF_TRUSTEES Section 3 part (C):

Persons elected by the community shall be appointed for a term of two years. The Board of Trustees shall determine the dates, rules and regulation of the voting procedures. The Board shall determine who shall be qualified to vote in the election.

All they mean by "determine who shall be qualified to vote in the election" is set a minimum edit count and/or time since creation that a user account must meet in order to vote. This has been the case with all previous elections, too; currently it is 400 edits. Again, what exactly is the issue? – Qxz 03:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC)