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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Infobox writer template.

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Template:Infobox writer is permanently protected from editing because it is a heavily used or highly visible template. Substantial changes should first be proposed and discussed here on this page. If the proposal is uncontroversial or has been discussed and is supported by consensus, editors may use {{edit template-protected}} to notify an administrator or template editor to make the requested edit. Usually, any contributor may edit the template's documentation to add usage notes or categories. Any contributor may edit the template's sandbox. Functionality of the template can be checked using test cases.

	Infoboxes
This template is within the scope of WikiProject Infoboxes, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Infoboxes on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.InfoboxesWikipedia:WikiProject InfoboxesTemplate:WikiProject InfoboxesInfoboxes

This template was considered for merging with Template:Infobox person on 17 December 2011. The result of the discussion was "no consensus to merge at this time; some support for refactoring {{Infobox writer}} so that it internally calls {{Infobox person}}".

Proposed short description

I propose adding {{ucfirst:{{Short description|1={{ #if: {{{nationality|}}}| {{{nationality|}} |}} writer}}|2=noreplace}} which should add a short description in the format writer. ― Qwerfjkltalk 16:28, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Notified Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Writing ― Qwerfjkltalk 16:35, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I like Nationality genre writer but do not have the template skills to determine how to select first of multiple genres.

No objection to the proposal as stated. —¿philoserf? (talk) 16:38, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

@Philoserf I think you can use {{#if:{{{genre|}}}|{{{genre|}}}|{{#if: {{genres|}}|{{#invoke:String|match|{{{genres}}}|%a+|match=1|nomatch=}}}}}} (added just before writer) ― Qwerfjkltalk 16:49, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not sure that would work. ― Qwerfjkltalk 16:51, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

This needs refinement. You need to strip wikilink code, for example. See this version of my sandbox for an example copied from a real article. Find an infobox with more sophisticated text handling. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:46, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

@Jonesey95 @Philoserf Looking at the articles that use |genres=, it seems very difficult to tell what the first genre is, and it seems arbitrary to use the first genre listed. ― Qwerfjkltalk 20:18, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

an editor can always override the generated short description. i'd just like a sane default. i have seen for example {{infobox game}} that use short description "Game" and thus must be overridden nearly everywhere to be useful. —¿philoserf? (talk) 16:04, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Philoserf it would be very difficult to tell what the first genre is, as sometimes {{plainlist}} is used, sometimes {{hlist}}, sometimes <br /> (just looking at a few cases). ― Qwerfjkltalk 16:11, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Acknowledged —¿philoserf? (talk) 16:15, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

In the other hand, if there's only one genre, that would be easy enough: {{#if: {{{genre|}}}|{{Delink|{{{genre|}}}|}} ― Qwerfjkltalk 20:21, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

The {{{nationality}}} should probably be delinked as well. ― Qwerfjkltalk 15:20, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Pinging @Goszei as a recent contributor; currently I have: {{ucfirst:{{Short description|1={{ #if: {{{nationality|}}}| {{Delink|{{{nationality|}}}} |}} {{#if: {{{genre|}}}|{{Delink|{{{genre|}}}|}} writer {{#if:{{{birth_date|}}}|{{#if:{{{death_date|}}}| ({{#invoke:String|match|{{{birth_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}} — {{#invoke:String|match|{{{death_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}})| (born {{#invoke:String|match|{{{pub_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}})}}}}|2=noreplace}}
producing writer (born X)/(X — Y). Not sure if the genre is needed - see below. Pinging @Jonesey95 and @Philoserf as well. ― Qwerfjkltalk 22:02, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

I think including |genre= is hopeless. I clicked on three articles at random from the first page of the TemplateData monthly report, and the second one, Carlo Collodi, shows that including the genre field will not work. The third article, Clive Barker, would also generate less than desirable results. I think that you should try for "nationality writer (born X)/(X–Y)" in the sandbox, and then copy some infoboxes to your sandbox and try it out to see if it works (do this regardless of what you are proposing, as it will reveal obvious problems before you spend the time to post again here). Note that I removed the spaces in the proposed year range, per MOS. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:50, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

@Jonesey95 After testing it on 3 random articles, this code seems to work:
{{#ifeq:{{{embed|}}}|yes||{{Short description|1={{ucfirst:{{ #if: {{{nationality|}}}| {{Delink|{{{nationality|}}}}} |}} writer {{#if:{{{birth_date|}}}|{{#if:{{{death_date|}}}| ({{#invoke:String|match|{{{birth_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}}−{{#invoke:String|match|{{{death_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}})| (born {{#invoke:String|match|{{{birth_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}})}}}}}}|2=noreplace}}}}  ― Qwerfjkltalk 09:03, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I do not see any test results. Please put your proposed changes in the template's sandbox. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:22, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done @Jonesey95 ― Qwerfjkltalk 07:11, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria Is this okay? ― Qwerfjkltalk 08:52, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

In what cases have you tested this? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:41, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria I've tested it on three random pages (you can check my sandbox history), and the testcases page seems to work fine. ― Qwerfjkltalk 19:49, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Not quite - the emdash should be an endash. Also I think when the box is embedded the automatic summary should not display. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:09, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria  Done ― Qwerfjkltalk 20:22, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

See User:Qwerfjkl/sandbox3, although I find it unlikely that any of the relevant parameters would be used in its embedded form. ― Qwerfjkltalk 20:47, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I see that your sandbox has both embedded and not embedded at the same time - what is it intended to show? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:48, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria The number for the date of birth is from the second template, not the first, meaning the first must have been suppressed. ― Qwerfjkltalk 06:52, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Okay, but that wasn't what I was asking. Look for example at Nelson Mandela - there is an embedded writer infobox, but summarizing him as "Writer" would not really make sense. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:59, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria It still gives no auto short description if embedded (and I updated the sandbox to show this). ― Qwerfjkltalk 12:25, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Okay - what about if more than one nationality is provided, for example using {{hlist}}? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:29, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria I believe I have fixed this (though hlist is only used on two articles, both of which have a short description). I have applied {{Plain text}} and then suppressed.the nationality when it contains a ASCII letter (such as , / ). An example can be seen at User:Qwerfjkl/sandbox3. The changes are at User:Qwerfjkl/sandbox2. ― Qwerfjkltalk 10:16, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I wonder if something might have gone wrong with that change - I've changed your sandbox version to have only a single nationality and yet this is not reflected in the shortdesc. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria Oops, I used {{#if: '''|''' (the pipe shouldn't be there). Now fixed. ― Qwerfjkltalk 16:09, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Okay. Has this latest version been thoroughly tested to avoid other bugs? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria I don't anticipate any major issues with the birth_date and death_date parameters (all it does is look the first 4-digit number). The nationality parameter should be okay, though the biggest issue will probably be using the country instead of the nationality (e.g. United Kingdom instead of British). Another problem could be templates, although this doesn't seem to be to much of a problem (see here for a list of articles in which the nationality parameter contains templates (and no short description)). Currently, it can correctly handle nationalities with citations and using the {{flag}} template (so long as the nationality is used, not the country). It strips the flag icon and leaves the delinked text for templates like {{USA}} (I've removed most (all?) of those). ― Qwerfjkltalk 21:38, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Filed a WP:AWBREQ. ― Qwerfjkltalk 20:00, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I think using |nationality= should be removed. Per WP:INFONAT, this field is often redundant and it is slowly being removed from infoboxes except when it actually provides additional information (I would estimate it belongs in only around 10% of IBs). There is nothing wrong with having nationality in the SD, but it needs to be added manually (without some very complicated logic). MB 16:40, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

@MB I still think it should be kept. It's used in ~14,000 articles, and won't affect anything if no value is given. ― Qwerfjkltalk 16:08, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

It may encourage editors to add more redundant uses of |nationality= as a way of "improving" the SD. MB 16:25, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

@MB I think a note to that effect (probably on the documentation) would stop that (something like):

| nationality = <!-- ... Do not add this to change the short description -->

 ― Qwerfjkltalk 16:39, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Usage guidance is already there:

| nationality      = <!-- use only when necessary per ] -->

I think very few people read the documentation. MB 16:45, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

@MB Hmm... you may be right. On the other hand, if they don't read the documentation, I don't see how they won't add nationality anyway. ― Qwerfjkltalk 16:58, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

@MB My reasoning would be that they won't known add |nationality= to change the short description unless they read the documentation, where a message could be out to discourage this. ― Qwerfjkltalk 10:51, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

@Qwerfjkl, MB, Nikkimaria, Jonesey95, and Philoserf: I am declining the 3O request. There are more than 2 participants in this dispute, so I would recommend taking this to the WP:Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. Sorry for the inconvenience, Sennecaster (Chat) 13:44, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

• This is the problem with trying to create automated “template” short descriptions.

The short description should be tightly focused on what makes the individual subject notable. In most cases, a person’s nationality is background information - not central to their notability - and is thus irrelevant to the short description. In the rare cases where nationality (or any other “group” label) does form a central part of the subject’s notability, it can be added to the short description by hand. Blueboar (talk) 14:10, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

The above opinion is contrary to the advice given at Misplaced Pages:Short description#Examples, contrary to actual SD usage in hundreds of thousands of articles, and contrary to normal practice at disambiguation articles. Nationality is a useful disambiguator, helpful for people searching for a specific "John Smith" or "Carlos López". – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:28, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please add the following code to automatically generate a short description: (see Proposed short description above) {{ucfirst:{{Short description|1={{ #if: {{{nationality|}}}| {{Delink|{{{nationality|}}}} |}} {{#if: {{{genre|}}}|{{Delink|{{{genre|}}}|}} writer}}|2=noreplace}}  ― Qwerfjkltalk 07:55, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Courtesy ping: @Philoserf @Jonesey95 ― Qwerfjkltalk 07:57, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

This approach would not seem likely to produce a result in line with WP:HOWTOSD, which prefers nationality and dates rather than nationality and genre for disambiguation. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:14, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria It that case, this could be added to the end: {{#if:{{{birth_date|}}}|{{#if:{{{death_date|}}}| ({{#invoke:String|match|{{{birth_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}} — {{#invoke:String|match|{{{death_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}})| (born {{#invoke:String|match|{{{pub_date}}}|%d%d%d%d?|match=1|nomatch=}})}}  ― Qwerfjkltalk 13:31, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

...which would add dates but keep genre. As above, I think this proposal needs more refinement. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:32, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit template-protected}} template. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 13:59, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Pppery, I believe I have fixed all the issues (here here). Should I try to establish more consensus? ― Qwerfjkltalk 19:13, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

You don't have to satisfy me, you have to satisfy Nikkimaria and anyone else watching this talk page, which you clearly haven't done since she responded to the comment you claimed fixed all of the issues with more problems that you seem to have spent no effort fixing. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 19:15, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

@Pppery Sorry, wrong link. ― Qwerfjkltalk 19:17, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

@Pppery I'm not sure if you followed the correct link, since I have corrected those issues. ― Qwerfjkltalk 12:03, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. Please reach agreement with Nikkimaria before reactivating this request — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:45, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Reactivating. See User:Qwerfjkl/sandbox3 — Qwerfjkltalk 16:27, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

I am not aware of any prohibition on genre, date, or nationaity, as long as they are correct. Any editor can improve the short description by crafting a customised version that better suits the topic, but the automated default must not be wrong or misleading. · · · Peter Southwood : 18:00, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Hopefully, this shouldn't malfunction. The nationality will be ignored if contains a non-ASCII character - to avoid complications like dual nationalities, etc. - and the birth/death date gets the first year given in the parameter. (The genre proved too difficult.) ― Qwerfjkltalk 18:12, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Reactivating (hopefully for the final time). I've removed the usage of {{{nationality}}}, which @MB brought up issues with, and so I request that the changes from User:Qwerfjkl/sandbox2 be implemented. ― Qwerfjkltalk 22:37, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

That will just produce writer unless birth and death date is given. Would it be better to use just the birth date for living people? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:36, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

@MSGJ: I removed this earlier due to another editor's concerns that these are often unreliable. ― Qwerfjkltalk 13:49, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

I've deployed, but I think the code can be improved. I don't understand why the birth date would be considered unreliable for living people, but acceptable for dead people. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:41, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Parameter to turn off short description

This template is generating a short description (with an error in it, when the subject is still living) even when the article already has a separate short description. We need a means of turning off the short desc. code in this template entirely.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:35, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

It also seems to be overriding local SDs (living or not). MSGJ, you should probably back out the change. MB 21:43, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

 Reverted, looks like further testing is needed — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:49, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

The |2=noreplace looks like it was in the wrong place. I think it needed to be moved two braces to the left (i.e. it was outside the SD template). – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:39, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Signature format

There is a signature in Joseph Mellor Hanson that is out of proportion. There is no |signature_size= in this template. Also, the signature is displayed in the right column of the infobox instead of being centered at the bottom. Can this be made to work like the signature in {{infobox person}}. Jonesey95? MB 01:25, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

 Done. Let me know if I broke anything. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:14, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

It looks fine to me. I do note that this template has the website centered with a heading, so with both signature and website, you get Arthur Miller, whereas infobox person does it differently. I don't have an example offhand, but the website in infobox person is in the data column with a label. Since URLs can be long, websites in this template probably wrap less often, which is better. If there is no complaint about this format, maybe in the future we should consider changing other templates. MB 05:52, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Religion Parameter

How does one include a 'religion' parameter in the template? SmoovOpr8r (talk) 16:12, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

It is not available. There is a notice at {{infobox person}} with links to the RFC on this. That applies to all related biographical infobox templates. MB 16:19, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

I see. Thank you. SmoovOpr8r (talk) 09:30, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

If the religion of the writer is important to understanding the person, and you have a reliable source that supports information about the person's religion, you can include that information in the body of the article. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:47, 9 July 2022 (UTC)