Talk:Black and Tans - Misplaced Pages

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Archive 1

Special Reserve?

There seems to be a bit of an edit war raging over the official name of the Black and Tans, or whether they had one at all. Books such as D M Leeson's The Black and Tans (2011) make clear that the Black and Tans weren't a separate force like the Auxiliaries, and that they weren't the Reserve Force (which was founded in 1839). But did they have an official name nevertheless?

Most sources do not say that there was an official name for the Black and Tans. Several very recent sources, mostly news websites, say in passing that the Black and Tans were officially named the "Royal Irish Constabulary Special Reserve" (which isn't the same as Reserve Force). However, those sources should be taken with a pinch of salt, as they might have gotten the information from Misplaced Pages itself, as such sources often do. The name has been in the article since 2015. It's based on two sources:

Reynolds, John. Divided loyalties: the Royal Irish Constabulary in county Tipperary, 1919-22. University of Limerick, 2013. p.83
"The burning of Cork, December 1920: the fire service response". History Ireland, November/December 2015 issue.

I can't find any other sources from before 2015 that use this name, which makes me wonder whether a mistake has been made and copied by several others.

In light of all this, I think we should remove "Special Reserve" as their official name unless better sources are found. We could write somewhere in the article: "some sources say that their official name was the Royal Irish Constabulary Special Reserve". ~Asarlaí 22:20, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

This one, this one, or this one, for example. The Banner talk 23:08, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

We have numerous asides from sources which may well have got the title from wikipedia, but we also have the most recent scholarly account of the Black and Tans by David Gleeson which explicitly refutes the suggestion that Black and Tans were the RIC reserve or special reserve, or that they formed a separate corps from the RIC. I would respectfully suggest that all sources here are not equal and that the full scholarly treatment must get priority. In fact, if you look above D.M Gleeson actually commented here many years ago that this was not correct. Just because the mistake has been repeated many times does not make it right. Jdorney (talk) 12:56, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Gleeson?

Let us start at the beginning:

Is the work of mr. Leeson peer reviewed?
Is he a notable historian in his own right?

The Banner talk 13:59, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Banner, unfortunately only your first source (the book review) is from before 2015, which means it's possible the others have gotten the name "Special Reserve" from Misplaced Pages or the two sources in this article. The website wouldn't pass as a reliable source anyway. I agree with Jdorney that scholarly sources must be given priority. What we really need are primary sources (from the 1920s), or scholarly works which cite them.

The problem is that the vast majority of sources do not say the Black & Tans had an official name. We only have a few sources (out of thousands) that say they do, in passing. They're all from the last few years and don't tell us where they got the information. A few even say their official name was "Reserve Force". But we know that's wrong, so it's possible the others are wrong about "Special Reserve" too.

Therefor, I think we should re-write it to say: "some sources say that their official name was the Royal Irish Constabulary Special Reserve". ~Asarlaí 17:50, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Excuse me, re 'Gleeson' slip of the typing! (Corrected now). Mr Leeson is absolutely is peer reviewed. He is a professor of history at Laurentian University, Ontario Canada, specialising in modern Irish History. His work on the RIC is widely cited in the academic world . Reviews of his book on the BLack and Tans are here . So I don't think that there's much doubt about his credentials.

As well as David Leeson's work however, there are more scholarly references that back up this point. The 'Black and Tans' were recruited as regular RIC constables. Richard Abott, in Police Casualties in Ireland (which is the go-to work on RIC casualties in the War of Independence has this to say. (2019, p.81),

who or what were the Black and Tans? The simple answer to this question is that they were recruits to the regular RIC who had to wear a hybrid dress of police and military uniform.This situation arose because so many men joined the RIC that it was impossible to secure sufficient quantities of dark green police uniforms... Another result, perhaps more serious than the look was the impression that there men were members of the RIC in the sense of being regular constables as heretofore. The uniform appeared to indicate that thy were a quasi military force under the control of the military authorities. This impression died hard long after any deficiencies of uniform had been made good by the end of 1920 with all the men being equipped in standard police uniform.

Furthermore, turning to the general scholarly history of the war, with Charles Townshend's The Republic, The Fight for Irish Independence,(2013), we find the same point: the so called Black and Tans were actually recruits into a restructured RIC, not a new division of it. P.102.

French in cahoots with Walter Long, was allowed to reconstruct the police, in a way that would have huge repercussions on the legitimacy of British authority in Ireland. At the end of ht year a n order was issued in the name of the Inspector General of the RIC, authorising recruitment of non-Irish personnel into the constabulary...A few days into the new year, the first British recruits began to arrive: The Black and Tans were born'. And p.157, 'The first British recruits to the RIC went out to stations, after a few weeks training, in March ... They were enlisted a regular constabulary but the addition of khaki undoubtedly hinted at a quasi military role. Even after the regular RIC's uniform shortage was cleared up, at the end of 1920, the sobriquet 'Black and Tans' stuck to the British recruits.

So the point I'm making is the specialist scholarly work tells us that the 'Black and Tans' was just a nickname for the new recruits made into the RIC from Britain from 1919-21. They were not temporary constables nor did they form a sub-unit the Special Reserve. I'm not sure how this trope came up but it is incorrect. If we are talking about the Auxiliaries however that is another story. They were recruited as 'temporary cadets', with their own uniform, rate of pay, units and command. I hope we can make progress on the article on this basis. Jdorney (talk) 17:54, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

If the Black and Tans were absorbed into the RIC, why are they treated like a separate unit with even a specific uniform? Even here: They were supplemented by the Black and Tans and 'Auxiliaries', who became known for their brutality, in 1920. See also this:

I hope I'm not being repetitive, but can you please read the sources I've provided above again? As Leeson, Abbot and Townshend make clear (above), they were not treated as a separate unit. they were drafted into RIC units. They were only initially given a different uniform because there were not enough police uniforms to go around. This was rectified by late 1920. A news source like RTE and Irish Times (above) is not equal to the specialist literature on the subject as a source. To be clear while there certainly existed a perception, in part due to their initially different uniforms, that the Black Tans were different formation to the RIC, this was not the case (see Townshend above). Again, the Auxiliaries were different, they had a distinct units, distinct uniform and distinct command. But the 'Black and Tans' were just recruits into the RIC. I think this is very clearly asserted in the sources I've given here. Jdorney (talk) 18:56, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

No, you are not repetitive. You are just ignoring what I have to say. So, thank you and goodbye. I am not spending any more time on this charade. The Banner talk 19:52, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid that's not good enough. This is not a charade. I have provided pretty extensive sources to back up the point I am making. I have listened to what you are saying, but you are incorrect. I will accordingly be changing the article to reflect the sources and I trust you will stop reverting please? Jdorney (talk) 22:09, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Peer review is nothing but agreement by the like minded - said by Alex Danco and many others.

I don't know who Alex Danco is, or why his opinion matters on the topic of peer review. But he sounds like he has his head up his ass--like many others.Cliodule (talk) 22:01, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

some sources count a "small number" of Irishmen as black & tans

How about 1 in 5 were Irish born? That's not really a "small number", nor is this a neutral way to word this info. The demographics of the Black & Tans reflected the demographics of the UK at the time, including Ireland's proportion of the population, and the Catholic/Protestant proportion in Ireland. Jonathan f1 (talk) 22:23, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

"British rule"

I keep seeing this phrase in virtually every article for this period of Irish history. What, pray tell, does "British rule" mean or supposed to mean? Is anyone seriously denying that Ireland was an equal member of the United Kingdom from 1801 -1922? And if not, isn't there a better or more neutral way to talk about a move to secede from the British state without making it sound as if they were literally ruled over by a foreign government against their will? By the late 19th Century, Ireland was sending more MPs to Westminster per capita than England & Wales. The first woman voted to the British Parliament was an Irishwoman.

You know, there is close to a 'zero' chance that historical articles on Ireland, particularly from the Early Modern Period on, are being edited neutrally. It is quite obvious that many of these articles have turned into little fiefdoms jealously guarded by a handful of editors, and that no one else is really paying attention to this space. Jonathan f1 (talk) 22:46, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Under British governance possibly might sound better Zwphyr (talk) 01:14, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

"Under British rule" is both neutral and accurate. Cliodule (talk) 21:24, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

True. Ireland was in the same position as Scotland and England and the principality of of Wales - all ruled by the British Parliament in which they are represented. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 09:17, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Vandalism in response to Biden comment

@Mz7 This article is getting vandalized due to increased public attention. I don't know standard procedure, but perhaps it should be sanitized and locked for a bit. SnowdogU77 (talk) 23:45, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I believe a lock for 24 hour is needed Zwphyr (talk) 01:12, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

@SnowdogU77:

Done. I put the article under semi-protection for a couple days. In the future, you may request page protection at the following page: Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection (shortcut: WP:RFPP). Best, Mz7 (talk) 01:41, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate it I am somewhat new to the whole Misplaced Pages thing, so I will do that in the future Zwphyr (talk) 01:46, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Lead

We currently say:

"The vast majority were unemployed former British soldiers from Britain who had fought in the First World War. Some sources count a small number of Irishmen as 'Black and Tans'."

British soldiers from Britain is rather redundant (we wouldn't say French soldiers from France) so shall we simply say British soldiers?

Lukewarmbeer (talk) 09:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

You know you can edit this article, right? It's kind of Misplaced Pages's thing. Cliodule (talk) 19:54, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

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