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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: Park, Meadhbh (2022). "Fight Club: Gavin McInnes, the Proud Boys, and Male Supremacism". In Carian, Emily K.; DiBranco, Alex; Ebin, Chelsea (eds.). Male Supremacism in the United States: From Patriarchal Traditionalism to Misogynist Incels and the Alt-Right. Abingdon, England: Routledge. doi:10.4324/9781003164722. ISBN 978-1-0005-7622-1.

Certainly a far-right neo-fascist hate group, but "white nationalist" doesn't really fit

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The group is led by Enrique Tarrio, an Afro-Cuban, who says "I'm pretty brown, I'm Cuban. There's nothing white supremacist about me." Gouncbeatduke (talk) 21:20, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

See Self-hating Jew and EXPLORING WHAT IS BEHIND THE RARE PHENOMENON OF JEWISH ANTI-SEMITES. Doug Weller talk 21:30, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Certainly that is one theory of why Tarrio is in bed with so many white nationalists. Another is that he willing to join forces with white nationalists (with whom he disagrees) in what he views as a more important fight against socialism. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 22:54, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

I think I saw something about Proud Boys saying they think Tarrio is just a front to make them look better. Dronebogus (talk) 13:52, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

The article should describe them the way reliable sources do. For example, the ADL says, "The Proud Boys are a right-wing extremist group with a violent agenda. They are primarily misogynistic, Islamophobic, transphobic and anti-immigration. Some members espouse white supremacist and antisemitic ideologies and/or engage with white supremacist groups." The SPLC calls them a "General Hate" group, not easily categorized. IOW, they attempt to bring together various strands of the far right and deliberately do not have a core ideology. TFD (talk) 02:42, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Exactly. "Some members" espouse white supremist views, but not all members and not the leader. I have been to several BLM marches where some marchers wore communist party shirts and carried communist party signs, but if someone made the the claim that BLM was a communist movement in the led of the BLM article, it would properly be reverted. We do a disservice to our readers when we do not hold articles about despicable groups to the same high NPOV standards as normal articles.Gouncbeatduke (talk) 15:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Also, I do think the Proud Boy have a core ideology, which is pretty well summarized in their slogan “Pinochet did nothing wrong!”. Tarrio sells a t-shirt stating this on his own web site, and Tusitala Toese is often photographed wearing it. Their ideology is that bringing about a violent dictatorship where torture is commonplace is the best way to fight socialism in the US and elsewhere. See https://archive.thinkprogress.org/amazon-shirts-pinochet-far-right-aed4d58ccb0a/ and https://www.splcenter.org/files/proudboyssellingpinochetjpeg . As this ideology is not a cause celeb like white supremacy, you see far more of an issued made about one unknown Proud Boy at one rally wearing a 6MWE t-shirt, a shirt not sold on any Proud Boy web site and which no one in Proud Boy leadership has ever been photographed wearing. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 15:49, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Proud Boys are a white nationalist group who tries to excuse their behavior as being anti-socialist (where "socialist" is used to mean "things we don't like"). Their rhetoric belies the idea that they are just against socialism, since they lump in anything they consider "woke" to be socialist. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:51, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

The idea this hate group is open about being pro-Pinochet, pro-dictatorship, pro-torture and murder of socialists, anti-immigration, anti-feminist, anti-LGBT+ rights, and islamophobic, but is hiding their white nationalist agenda is an interesting theory. I don’t see much evidence for it, but I see a lot of evidence against it. Tarrio is Afro-Cuban, Gibson is Japanese American, and Toese is Samoan. McInnes, whose wife is the daughter of Native American activist Christine Whiterabbit Jendrisak, once said "I've made my views on Indians very clear. I like them. I actually like them so much, I made three." Gouncbeatduke (talk) 19:23, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Being pro-Pinochet is not an ideology. Pinochet supporters included liberals, conservatives and far right. Many of them of course were also white nationalists.

I think it is very short-sighted to claim that the Proud Boys as a group have a white nationalist agenda. It's basically saying we've seen this before so they must be the same. But the American far right also originally had a virulent anti-Catholic agenda. They now however accept Irish and Italians as those groups became absorbed into American society. Six of the nine justices of the U.S. Supreme Court are now Catholics - that's not just tokenism. Now they seem to be attracting Hispanics, who are also (slowly) moving into U.S. Society. No doubt they would also like to attract more blacks. Also, while many members are anti-Semitic, they also attract members from the Jewish far right. TFD (talk) 02:37, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree it is short sighted. It may dangerously underestimate the Proud Boys as well to assume they are white nationalist, I think their appeal is far broader than that. I watched some of McInnes's attempted intervention with Kenya West, trying to convince him being anti-Semitic is a mistake and that many of the Orthodox Jews are Trump allies. It sounds like anyone of any race who is a Trump ally is considered a Proud Boy ally.Gouncbeatduke (talk) 03:42, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

• Here is a fairly good academic paper on the Proud Boys' white nationalism. The first sentence of its abstract is The Proud Boys are an opportunistic hate group whose message of white male chauvinism is infused with religious and nationalist symbols. It says in the body that However, the ideology of the Proud Boys seems to be ever fluctuating, as are its targets. It has been pointed out that founder McInnes plays a duplicitous rhetorical game in rejecting the label of white nationalist and alt-right while espousing many tenets associated therewith. This paper says much the same thing (see especially the section Denial & Shifting Blame: DARVO as a Discursive Tactic, which focuses on how they obscure their white nationalist ties.) Other good sources include "Proud Boys and the White Ethnostate: How the Alt-Right Is Warping the American Imagination", an entire book from an academic publisher exploring modern white nationalism via the Proud Boys. In terms of news coverage, Politico calls them a "white nationalist fight club", a characterization that another academic paper has cited approvingly. So while they deny that they are white nationalist, I don't think that this is treated seriously in academia - they're frequently covered in-depth as a white nationalist group, and are often used as an example of what a modern white nationalist group looks like. --Aquillion (talk) 05:52, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I think this research is pretty out-of-date and weak. There is no mention of Tarrio, who took over in 2018, in either the Kitts or the Kutner paper. These papers make the assumption you can't prove the group is despicable unless you can uncover some hidden ties to white nationalism greater than the fact a significant subset of the membership is involved with white nationalism. I think this is unnecessary, there is plenty of despicable stuff out in the open. The thing Kitts gets right is the stuff about Trump being their hero, I wish the article would expand on that. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 23:23, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Seconded. The ICCT paper is incredibly duplicitous. I quote the following from the article:

“We must secure the existence of our people and a future for our white children”. The latter is referred to as “the fourteen words”. The Proud Boy’s slogan is thematically linked to the fourteen words, as both emphasize the need to secure or preserve western or white culture. To provide further evidence of the linguistic bridge between western and white nationalism, it is important to reference an episode of the Gavin McInnes show, where his guest, Emily Youcis, a vocal supporter of white nationalism, implored him to say the fourteen words to prove he was at the crux of “this movement.” Gavin McInnes, in response, recited the 14 words, replacing “white” with western."

Somehow, the fact that McInnes declines to make pro-White statements is used as evidence that he is a white supremacist.

It seems that the main evidence that the Proud Boys is a "White Nationalist" organization is that they frequently insist that they are not. If this is true, then Antifa must be Fascist, Mumia Abu-Jamal must be a cop-killer, and Jews must be the clandestine rulers of the Earth, because they all protest so much that they are not.

Also, Tarrio is mentioned in the Hague paper, though just as an "Afro-Cuban." Harry Sibelius (talk) 11:17, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

@Valjean Why did you delete @Drowlord's post here? Harry Sibelius (talk) 18:53, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that deletion was awkwardly done on my cellphone and not ideal. I somehow missed the chance to leave an edit summary, so I went to his talk page and left a warning. We don't allow editors to come here and push their own conspiracy theories. Otherwise, the source and info about Tarrio being an informant is very old news and already in the article, right in the lead with multiple sources. We lost nothing, but I'll have to figure out this mobile editing thing. It doesn't always work well for me, and now, on my phone, I see that talk pages are without a TOC. I don't like it and will have to figure out what's going on. It comes and goes, so I suspect I may be unwittingly triggering some setting. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:21, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

There has been plenty of "conspiracy-theorizing" on this talk-page, such as that Enrique Tarrio is a "self-hating" black latino, or that "I think I saw something about Proud Boys saying they think Tarrio is just a front to make them look better." Drowlord at least supported his claim with a somewhat relevant source, unlike others on this thread. You clearly are acting in bad faith, and do not actually have any problem with conspiracy theories, or else you would've deleted the other comments. Harry Sibelius (talk) 02:24, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

That makes no sense. I didn't read the thread, just his comment. What was there (provide an exact quote) in that source that "supported his claim"? You should read my warning on his talk page. You must AGF or stop editing. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:41, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Why are you deleting random comments on threads that you haven't read? You are obviously familiar with the subject, as you say that you are familiar with Tarrio's status as an FBI asset. All you wrote on his page was "Conspiracy theories. Don't spread them here." What am I supposed to learn from that? Drowlord wrote was that Tarrio is an FBI asset, with a reliable source backing up his claim. Did you take issue with his claim that PB is itself a creation of intelligence? If so, you must justify why you take issue with this conspiracy theory, but not baseless, unsourced claims of "self-hating" blacks conspiring with Nazis in this same thread. Harry Sibelius (talk) 05:18, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't have to take issue with or correct other issues because I take issue with one problem. If I see a problem, I'm allowed to focus on that problem.

I took issue with this part of their comment: "The organization is a puppet hate group run by the FBI to justify their domestic terrorism work." Pushing such conspiracy theories is not allowed here. It is forbidden advocacy of fringe opinions. The link Drowlord provided is already used in the article and the issue is a very old one we have already dealt with, so nothing was lost by deleting the comment. We have documented that Tarrio was an FBI asset for a long time. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:13, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Kitts, Margo. . {{cite journal}}: Check |url= value (help); Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
2. Stern, Alexandra Minna (16 July 2019). Proud Boys and the White Ethnostate: How the Alt-Right Is Warping the American Imagination. Beacon Press. ISBN 978-0-8070-6336-1 – via Google Books.
3. Magazine, Politico. "What Charlottesville Changed". POLITICO Magazine. Retrieved 2022-12-18.

They aren't Neo-Fascist

Should we add anti Zionism to the Ideology list?

The founder, Gavin Mclnnes once wrote a list about the things he hates about Israel, one of the Proud Boys leaders said Zionists are criminals who are trying destroy our civilization. Bradenmeddleton (talk) 05:21, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Do you have any sources we can cite for those statements? — The Hand That Feeds You: 12:08, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

https://www.jta.org/2020/11/11/united-states/a-leader-of-the-proud-boys-says-it-is-now-a-fully-white-supremacist-group-called-the-proud-goys Bradenmeddleton (talk) 14:37, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think this source is sufficient to identify this as part of the group's overall ideology. The source notes It is unclear how Chapman’s call has been received by others in the group. Other Proud Boys channels on Telegram have not reflected the changes he wants to institute, and a message from the administrator of one said, “No, we are not the Proud Goys. No, Kyle didn’t stage a coup,” and then referred to him with an ableist slur. If this change were broadly accepted, I would expect additional sources would have reported on it in the intervening two plus years. VQuakr (talk) 23:27, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 April 2023

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The word "always" needs to be changed in the sentence

"The Proud Boys are known for their opposition to left-wing and progressive groups and for their support for former U.S. President Donald Trump, who has always denounced such groups, including the Proud Boys."

because it simply isn't true, as later described in the article.

I suggest the following

"The Proud Boys are known for their opposition to left-wing and progressive groups and for their support for former U.S. President Donald Trump, who sometimes denounced and sometimes offered acknowledgement of such groups, including the Proud Boys." Chuckjonesbabygorilla (talk) 03:07, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done: I'm going to change "has always" to "has". "Offered acknowledgement" doesn't appear in the article and needs consensus. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:13, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Ideology

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So i looked through the PDF linked in Reference No. 1. The word "Chauvinism" are mentioned two times, "Authoritarianism" are mentioned one time, "islamophobia" are mentioned 0 times and none of those are in relation to the subject of the article.

Does the reference really support the statements or am i missing something?

Overall it might be a good idea to diversify the references for the ideology section of the infobox Trade (talk) 18:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Callmemirela 🍁 19:44, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Trying to get some consensus here @Callmemirela:--Trade (talk) 21:02, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Then the edit request template is inappropriate to establish consensus. Callmemirela 🍁 21:17, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I'll make the change myself if i dont get any responses within a week Trade (talk) 21:59, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

@Trade @Callmemirela Authoritarianism is not an ideology, but a political system; it should be removed.

Anti-immigration, anti-feminism and anti-LGBT rights can be summarized with the term social conservatism.

What do you think of the following ideologies (as internal factions)?

• Pinochetism

"The Proud Boys have increasingly embraced Pinochet as a sort of mascot. “Helicopter ride” memes and the phrase “Make Rotary Aircraft Great Again” – references to the dictator’s practice of dropping political enemies from helicopters – are common on Proud Boys’ social media posts. At one point, the group also sold merchandise and gear featuring a crest associated with Pinochet."

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/proud-boys

• Occidentalism

"but welcome non-white members as long as these members acknowledge that Western civilization is superior to all others"

https://www.populismstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/ECPS-Organisation-Profile-Series-1.pdf

• Right-wing libertarianism

"Despite purporting to oppose government tyranny, the Proud Boys’ values exemplify the slippage between right-libertarianism and fascism (Vitolo-Haddad, 2019), working toward what Michael Orth (1990) described as a “libertarian Utopia which combines violence, repression of women, and a dictatorial state into an all-American Utopia which emits strong fascist resonances.” Similarly, political scientist Adolph Reed, Jr. (2013) argues that this contradiction is inevitable in right-wing libertarianism, and the Proud Boys adopt a libertarian “aesthetic” of freedom to promote a politics that is often authoritarian"

https://www.populismstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/ECPS-Organisation-Profile-Series-1.pdf 93.45.229.98 (talk) 13:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Sounds excellent to me Trade (talk) 14:54, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Participation in the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (2017)

The episode should be added to the proud boys history section.

References:

"In March 2017, a Proud Boys member named Brandon Vaughan of the Ottawa, Canada, chapter assaulted a Palestinian-American community college professor. Videos of the assault show Proud Boys members fighting alongside the Jewish Defense League, a right-wing militant organization." https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/proud-boys

"Vaughan is a prominent member of the Ottawa Proud Boys, a right-wing group that describes itself as “Western chauvinists.” He is also a regular at far right protests in Ottawa, Toronto and elsewhere in Canada." https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/warrant-issued-after-ottawa-man-skips-u-s-arraignment-on-assault-hate-crime-charges https://canoe.com/news/local-news/warrant-issued-after-ottawa-man-skips-u-s-arraignment-on-assault-hate-crime-charges/wcm/5b97e2c2-4875-47c4-a5e9-730ae5a8e916 93.45.229.98 (talk) 13:47, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Symbolism

I propose to add the following:

RWDS - Right Wing Death Squad https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2023/05/09/what-to-know-about-right-wing-death-squad-phrase-linked-to-texas-shooter-proud-boys/

Hoppean snake https://theintercept.com/2021/02/04/pinochet-far-right-hoppean-snake/

If you know of anything else please say. 93.45.229.98 (talk) 13:54, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

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