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Unprotection

As per the request, and after contacting the admin responsible for the protection, I am unprotecting this article. I can quite understand the reasons which lead the admin to protect this article. Currently, my own opinion is that, given the current state of the article, pretty much any edits are preferable to leaving it as it is. This is not to condone the multiple actions of many different editors which have reduced a featured article to this state: I must remind all concerned that disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point is a blockable offense independantly of the three revert rule, as has been confirmed by the Arbitration Committee on several occasions.

For the majority of editors, who are editing in good faith, I invite you to consider that the best way of putting your point is to "write for the enemy" rather than engaging in trench warfare. Misplaced Pages is neither an election meeting nor a saloon bar; our aim is to be useful to our readers. Physchim62 (talk) 03:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Physchim62. that sounds fine. I would like to offer one small comment, if I may; could you please give us some guidance on how to proceed? we seem to keep going around and around in circles around the same issue. I don't know why we're not able to get any traction. Admins seem to come and go, but no one seems able to put some clear ideas on the table on how to proceed, or to take at least some stand on who is somewhat right, on even at least some small part of any of the main issues. So any guidance you might be able to provide on even some small part of this might be greatly appreciated. Thanks. --Sm8900 03:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Global Warming Dmcdevit method

Copied from Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Global Warming Dmcdevit method:

We'll be trying some of Dmcdevit's thoughts out on Global Warming.

We're unprotecting now. Could folks please keep an eye on the page, and block any Edit warriors on sight? (Note that you can block for edit warring even when there has been no strict 3RRvio, but do be careful of what you call an edit war, nevertheless.)

Hopefully no-one will actually be editwarring, but since we're unprotecting a contentious page, you never really know for sure.

--Kim Bruning 03:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I just posted a comment there. Thanks for the notice. --Sm8900 04:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Archiving

Excuse me, who just decided it is a good idea to archive discussions which are only an hour old? why is this being done? It seems like it was done by people who are uninvolved in this article. Thanks. --Sm8900 04:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It's a good idea, the page was too long. The material's in /Archive 21, and it's easy enough to cut and paste discussions from there if necessary. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom

(Note: Restoring this talk section from archive, as it was active as of today. Thanks. --Sm8900 04:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC))

Mediation has got us nowhere, all the discussion has changed little, and edit wars are continual. I believe that the only way to settle this conflict would be through arbitration. What are other people's views on this? Would others support moving the dispute to ArbCom? All other steps seem to have been taken. -- Cielomobile 00:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not opposed, but ArbCom has a long-standing policy that it does not handle content conflicts. There are user conduct issues as well, but just now they are minor. --Stephan Schulz 00:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe that WP:MEDCOM hasn't been tried yet, and there's also community enforceable mediation. However, as someone who's mostly been watching this dispute from afar (including the threads it's spawned on various noticeboards) I think it's going to end up at arbitration sooner or later. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, we just had Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-03-25 Global warming, where we could not find a full-time mediator, and User:Kim Bruning effectively gave up. Also, Talk:Global warming#Guerrilla_Mediation_opening_here seems to be active at this time, but the guerrilla mediator also has not been very active. I agree that this is eventually headed to ArbCom (for the third time). --Stephan Schulz 01:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I would prefer that the term "war" be applied to its customary meaning, instead of as a euphemism for ordinary editing disagreements. James S. 00:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Medcom has been tried. There is a Guerrilla Mediation supposedly underway, although the mediator runs off for a while and the page just keeps rocking. I want the Mediator to be more active, but what can you do? I think CEM is experimental right now. They need some time to mature before handling this page. Arbcom is probably too drastic at this time. I detect impatience in a few folk. Don't worry! If you die tomorrow this page was not that important. And if you live, it will still be here! --Blue Tie 01:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

This is the strangest edit I have seen today! LOL. --Blue Tie 01:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I care about the little things ;-). But seriously, my web browser hang while saving, so I resaved. I suspect the Wiki engine got a bit confused.--Stephan Schulz 01:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

A content dispute like this isn't suitable for ArbCom. I don't think mediation has been allowed to properly run its course here. Some slow progress has been made. A large part of the issue is the huge number of participants which means mediators simply get swamped and can't keep up. If everyone could just slow down for a bit... -- Leland McInnes 01:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Queuing theory. One Server, Multiple Input Channels. Makes me think that one technology based solution would be to limit each participant to 3 article edits a day and 6 talk page edits per day on highly involved articles. Of course that would really stress some folks out. We wouldn't want to be responsible for deaths by stress. --Blue Tie 01:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the problem with this article isn't one that the Misplaced Pages model can resolve. The Misplaced Pages model tries to be fair to everyone, and when there's a split in users' opinions that they aren't willing to budge on, the Misplaced Pages solution is to do nothing or to protect the article from editing ad infinitum. For the article to truly be stable, there would have to be a proprietor who blocks everyone on one side of the argument and makes the official stance the other side of the argument. Obviously the "fair" solution is to include everyone's views on the matter, but one of the requirements the other group has is to not include everyone's views on the matter - and even though that's POV, they're in the majority and very active about reverting out attempts to change it to NPOV (and they can't be outruled as they include several of the administrators and bureaucrats of Misplaced Pages). So ArbCom is worth a shot, but I predict more of the same. --Tjsynkral 01:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, except ArbCom can actually enforce things. Nevertheless, I think it's a bit drastic and I think we should wait for the current mediation taking place. ~ UBeR 01:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I actually see it differently. I believe that there is a way for this to be resolved. Let me see if I can write what I see in my mind.

First there are the people who are pov and will absolutely NOT compromise. This is not out of evil but out of a belief that they are serving a higher good. I believe that they will tend to be in a minority. I hope this article would not attract the deviants! Second, I think that most people actually want a really good encyclopedia article. (And by the way, if you want to see one, I would recommend looking at Lochry's Defeat which is up for FA. Compare our article to that one, and this one suffers greatly in the comparison, I think.) Third, I think that if people can get over a lack of trust and believe that the other person really doesn't want to push an agenda but only write a good encyclopedia, we can get past these issues. But it has to be true. There has to be no agenda except to write an article that is good. Fourth, I think that in that situation, you can refer to wikipedia guidelines and rules to help resolve issues and problems. Fifth, I think that we need some system to coordinate. There are too many people who want a piece. This means that there would have to be a plan...an outline ... of the article. And probably not of just the article but of the whole area encompassed by this issue of climate change.--Blue Tie 01:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

There are only two possible solutions. Either limited edit wars are tolerated (because they are perpetrated by a few and they cannot change the article to their liking anyway) or some users will be banned. A consensus was already reached. The article focusses on the science. If we discuss politics and other issues then that can't be used to dispute the science. The science that can be included in this article can only come from reputable peer reviewed sources. This means e.g. that the conclusions of the study by Oreskes can be mentioned in the article, but not those of the Oregon petition.

Reverting people who repeatedly violate these basic principles is i.m.o. not a big deal (In some other science articles these sorts of reverts happen every day). But if some adminstrator thinks that it is a big deal, then he/she should ban the POV pushers. I think that any further block on editing this article won't do much good, because the hard core POV pushers won't ever change their behavior. Count Iblis 02:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Count Iblis, you said: " A consensus was already reached. The article focusses on the science. If we discuss politics and other issues then that can't be used to dispute the science." Are you saying the consensus was to only focus on science? Or are you saying the consensus is to also include other subtopics, but not to allow them to question the science? If the latter, can we perhaps try to implement that? I am open to that. Thanks. --Sm8900 04:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, from my view there are several problems with your two solutions:

1. edit wars are a bad thing.
2. no real consensus has been reached yet on the article being about science without a change in the name
3. your decision to limit what can be entered into the article as a reliable source has not been agreed to.
4. your plan to revert people every day is the same as edit warring. However, it is one of the problems that people have been complaining about with this article and as long as this is the approach you take the article will not work.
5. if someone were to to be banned for pov pushing you might suffer instead of others. Be careful what you wish for. --Blue Tie 02:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I just want to note for the record, in my opinion it is the pro-status quo group who are the POV-pushers. They are continually reverting a wide variety of edits, from a wide array of good-faith editors, on many diverse sub-topics, because they say that all such edits detract from what they consider to be the "proper" article. --Sm8900 03:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I tend to think that may be true. It looks like it. It feels like it. --Blue Tie 03:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment and question re this issue

Thanks Blue Tie. to answer the specific question here, I tend to agree with Leland McInnes, above. The mediation has not been allowed to run its course. However, I also feel it is doubtful how much it can ultimately accomplish. I recognize the need for compromise, and am open and amenable to reasonable compromise. However, I'm not sure the pro-status quo group is similarly open.

Let me ask you folks in the pro-status quo group, do you see any need to be willing to compromise on any aspect of this issue? or do you see yourselves as already holding the correct position, holding the line against many less-skillful edits which would add improper edits and insertions to this article.

Alt: valiantly holding the line against knowing or ignorant pov pushers who seek to add destructive edits and insertions to this article. --Blue Tie 03:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not trying to be cynical or ironic here; I am genuinely asking. If any of you do picture yourselves as willing to hear the views of the other side, and to compromise somewhat to reach a resolution, I would be open to hearing it, and some of the genuine concerns you might have in reaching compromise.However, I'm not sure that is the case. That's why I feel the mediation should be allowed to progress further, but I'm still not sure how much it will ultimately accomplish.

Also, how do you see this issue? I assume you feel you are the main check against a range of invalid edits? Or do you see this as a dispute between well-meaning good-faith edits on both sides, with room for compromise? again, I am genuinely asking, and not seeking at all to be ironic. I appreciate your input. Thanks. --Sm8900 03:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I personally feel that there is no need for compromise past the passing mention of controversy that already exists in the form of a summary-style section. As for how I see the issue, I see some editors on the pro-politics side as acting in good faith, and some as nothing more than POV pushers (I will not name names).

Now, concerning the mediation, the first one had little effect, and I highly doubt that the second will produce any results either. We will let it run its course, but in the end, there is only one path for the dispute. I do not know where in Misplaced Pages:Arbitration policy it says that ArbCom does not handle content disputes; under scope, it is written that ArbCom "will primarily investigate interpersonal disputes," but I do not take that to mean it will not investigate content disputes. Besides, content disputes are interpersonal disputes anyway: they are disputes between persons. -- Cielomobile 08:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Alkivar's conduct on this page

Can we discuss Alkivar's conduct on this page? First he put a 1-week protect on the article without so much as a post to the talk page, now he is aggressively blanking sections of the article and archiving still-active talk page discussions. I for one don't think this behavior is right and it's borderline vandalism. --Tjsynkral 04:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Also note that the first edit warring since the last unprotect was done by none other than Alkivar:

Revert

Revert back by Alkivar

Whether or not one revert counts as edit warring is arguable, but it seems like we have a problem. --Tjsynkral 04:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Nah, the first edit warring was done by Jacob Buerk (talk · contribs), and he's blocked. Read WP:AN, it's fun! --Akhilleus (talk) 04:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreee, we have a problem. This is absolutely improper. Something strange is going on here. BTW, anyone want to answer my incisive questions from last discussion. aahhh, I guess not... :-) --Sm8900 04:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Some folks are experimenting with new intervention methods. I'm not sure I agree with all of the methods proposed, but it's worth a try, I guess. --Kim Bruning 04:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

And this is supposed to help the article...or the situation...how, exactly? --Sm8900 04:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure, but note how this is a summary article? I think people are looking at how to get the NPOV discussion away from this article, and leave it at the actual sub-articles, where there are less people (and so it's easier to reach consensus). I agree some of the edits seem a bit drastic, though %-/. --Kim Bruning 04:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

And I'm confused why he's been blocked. He reverted what amounts to blanking of the article, in apparently good faith, and gets blocked? That's MORE than a bit questionable! Kyaa the Catlord 04:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Reverted without discussion or edit summary. Naconkantari 04:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The user has been unblocked per email. Naconkantari 04:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

And? Last time I checked, wikiquette suggests an edit summary, but when you're watching for changes and they look, sketchy, be bold and take steps. Blanking in the manner Alkivar has been doing would look suspect to anyone who watches recent changes. This is a bad precedent to be making! (There was a edit conflict) Kyaa the Catlord 04:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Note that Alkivar (as the protecting admin) has been specifically invited to help out by the unprotecting admin. That's a bit more than I bargained for, let's see what happens. :-) --Kim Bruning 04:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd encourage all editors on this page to follow WP:0RR to avoid creating further conflict on the article. Naconkantari 04:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Encourage all you want... but we've already seen that the current "cure" is worse than the illness. Kyaa the Catlord 04:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

What "cure" would that be? Naconkantari 04:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Half-cocked, nearly abusive blocking of good faith edits by wikipedians in good standing? Kyaa the Catlord 04:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Be nice. He did correct his move immediately. :-/ --Kim Bruning 04:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice? I'm sorry, three edittors have now been blocked from editting because of making valid edits on the article as of now. This isn't Sparta. Kyaa the Catlord 04:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

:-/ --Kim Bruning 05:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Admins knew the article would be unprotected, and they were looking for possible edit warriors. I've left a message at the admins noticeboard. --Kim Bruning 05:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Good. But this is worse than the disease, we have editors being blocked for making edits, not for edit warring. Kyaa the Catlord 05:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Argh, yeah. So I've also got some people from irc actively watching now, including watching out for hair-trigger admins (sometimes real-time communications can be a boon). Hopefully this will cover all the bases. It's now actually morning again around here. :-/ I'm going to need to sleep soon. <looks bleary-eyed> --Kim Bruning 05:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC) but who watches the watchers watching the watchers?

Well, please follow at least Harmonious editing club guidelines --Kim Bruning 04:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm interested to see what happens. --Blue Tie 04:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Me three --Kim Bruning 04:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC) <bites nails/>

update: Now TJ... has been blocked. He's made 1 edit on the page which seems to have been an arguably valid edit. WTF? Kyaa the Catlord 04:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

This page is starting to look (and sound) a lot more like these guys or these guys. The parallels are almost uncanny. See ya, I'm going to sleep. --Sm8900 04:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe wait a little while before you actually edit, and move slowly, while things sort themselves out. --Kim Bruning 05:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

FA?

Perhaps at some point the disappearance of the FA star can be explained? --Akhilleus (talk) 04:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It is de-featured. --Blue Tie 05:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Right, I'd like an explanation of how that happened. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It isn't plainly obvious? --Tjsynkral 05:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. Apparently the FARC was closed and the result was that the article was de-featured, but I don't see any statement of the reasons why. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Read the FAR page and you will see a gusher of opinions why this page doesn't come close to deserving FAR in its current state. --Tjsynkral 05:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

What that tells me is that you can get an article de-featured by starting a bunch of edit wars and complaining that the article isn't stable. A closing statement might cure me of this misapprehension, if in fact I am mistaken. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I've asked Kim to explain why he closed the review, but I expect it will be reopened since it is unclear what motivated the very early closing. Christopher Parham (talk) 06:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It has been reopened, but the FA star is still no longer on the article page. I am not sure how to put it back; could someone else do so? -- Cielomobile 08:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

NPOV problems and new "edit warring" standard

The edits immediately before Tjsynkral's plainly violated WP:NPOV by taking a firm position on a scientific controversy that different scientists disagree about.(e.g., "40%", "primary factors" vs. insert of "insignificant"). There was no commentary on the talk page supporting this new conclusory evaluation of multiple points of view. That's one way to achieve stability for an article if a different standard for blocking is applied to edits that fail to adhere to the favored POV than those that do on grounds of "edit warring". Someone should add an NPOV tag, but I imagine someone has previously removed one, and I don't want to be accused of edit-warring. -- THF 05:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Logic Problem

There is a problem with the first section. It says:

These conclusions have been endorsed by more than 30 scientific societies and academies of science, including all of the national academies of science of the major industrialized states, and no individual scientists disagree. The only scientific society that denies human-caused global warming is the American Association of Petroleum Geologists.

It can be demonstrated instantly that there are individual scientists who disagree. But even if that cannot be demonstrated, the statement makes a positive assertion that there are none who disagree, but the citation does not say that. The citation only says that in one study of 928 abstracts, a social scientist could not find any abstracts that clearly disagreed with the mainstream views. That is definitely not the same thing as no individual scientists disagree.

It is an un-sourced statement as it is written.

And now, this article makes it clear that at least the following scientists disagree:

Bill Gray, Richard Lindzen, S. Fred Singer, Pat Michaels, Sterling Burnett,

So the statement is wrong that none do. --Blue Tie 05:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

For the moment, at least, I'd like to remove the text "and no individual scientists disagree." since I don't think it's an accurate representation of Oreskes' paper. We can then discuss what, if anything, should replace it on the talk page. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Blue Tie, I notice you've changed the sentence, but I don't think that's an accurate summary of Oreskes' argument either. The whole point of the scrutiny this article is under at the moment is to make editors discuss proposed changes on the talk page, so why don't we discuss what the sentence should say? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Akhilleus (talk • contribs) 05:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

I have a problem with making a firm statement about the number of dissenting scientists, as if that is a known fact, when we only have one source to back it up -- and that source has been accused of confirmation bias. I think that if we had another source on the number of dissenting scientists, we would be closer to saying something unqualified like "small number of individual scientists who disagree..." but it would be improper synthesis to use Oreskes's essay to say that there are a small number of dissenting scientists. It weakly supports the idea of a "consensus among scientists" (I say weakly because sitting in your armchair and searching a database for a text string doesn't constitute substantial research) but it definitely is not a study on how many scientists disagree. I think that was what the research set out to prove - the consensus, not the lack, or magnitude, of disagreers. I don't personally think we ought to make a run-on sentence qualifying exactly what Oreskes's methods were in the intro - we should just say "some individual scientists disagree" and although not a large departure from "a small number" it does not introduce a factual inaccuracy into the article. --Tjsynkral 06:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Right now there are no statements about the number of dissenting scientists. There isn't even a qualifier like "many" or "few". It just says that there are individual scientists. As far as the "Weakly supports" consensus, I agree that it is very weak. I have argued this previously and I really think the study is bad. That is why it should be counterbalanced. But I did not interpret what it meant. I just quoted its conclusion. --Blue Tie 06:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, now I've edited it twice (taking steps). What do you make of that edit? --Blue Tie 05:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It's closer to what Oreskes says, but I still don't like it. Your wording implies that Oreskes only took abstracts into account. Not so. Furthermore, the statement "An abstract review of 928 peer reviewed articles" is unnecessarily specific--this is the lead, after all. The basic point that's being made in the lead is that there's a strong consensus behind the IPCC position, and the quantification and qualification in the current version is not helpful for the reader, in my opinion. I'd simply cut the paragraph off after "These conclusions have been endorsed by more than 30 scientific societies and academies of science, including all of the national academies of science of the major industrialized states." The following sentences probably go lower down in the "Controversy and politics" section, where we link to other articles--if we want to characterize Oreskes' study, we should probably do so in Global warming controversy. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, according to her article she only took the abstracts into account. (To me that is a problem). And here is the problem with not being pretty specific: You will start to use words like "Some" "Many", "Few" "a tiny Amount" and so on, which are going to be objected to by some (reasonably so) because they are not specific and in some cases bad synthesis. They are weasel words. I do not think anyone would disagree that there is a "strong consensus". Where the problem comes in is when you start to describe the opposition. Do you describe it as "small", "tiny", "very small", "insignificant"? And when you are finished describing it, how do you support that judgment of its size and quality? I suggest that if you follow wikipedia standards you must avoid weasel words. So what do you use? --Blue Tie 07:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Oreskes

Why is Oreskes in the intro at all? The article is not about Oreskes, and the Oreskes paper is only a single point of view that is contradicted by the refutation of Oreskes by Peiser. THF 06:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

You're wrong about Peiser, but as I just wrote, I think we should take Oreskes out of the intro. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

OK. So how do we settle this issue then? There are plenty of people who really badly want to say that as far as scientists go, this is settled and now its just the politicians who are quibbling. There are also people who really badly want to say that it is not settled science and that many good scientists disagree. Other than OR, or unsupported weasle words, how do we support this? --Blue Tie 06:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, Blue Tie, I think you've stated the basic reason why there's so much fighting over this article. Why don't we just wait for some other editors to weigh in before making any big changes to the lead? --Akhilleus (talk) 06:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Okie doke! How long do we wait? A day or two?

To me its this lead is all a bit wrong. Really, the lead should require few or no cites. It should all be referenced in the article. itself. And that is one of the big problems with the article. It was really one of the two criticisms I had when I first came to the page: The article needs to be re-structured so that the summary "recounts" the contents of the article. And it should be short and sweet. Then the sections of the article need to cover the details.

Unfortunately I did not, at that time, quite grasp the intentions of the different parties. (I was just trying to make the article flow better and be sort of unslanted. But now that the article has, more or less, been considered to be a matter of science only, I believe that SOME of the debating goes away. But the under those rules the article should also be renamed and a new summary article linking to a fairly large number of sub articles should be created. That one article should be almost like an intelligent train station... giving good information but also helping people get to the place that they really want to go. All of the articles in the group should have navigation toolboxes near the top --Blue Tie 06:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

For reference, here is how I originally tried to handle that two sided debate:

lobal average air temperature near Earth's surface rose 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.3 ± 0.32 °F) during the last century. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concludes, "most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations," which leads to warming of the surface and lower atmosphere by increasing the greenhouse effect. These conclusions have been endorsed by more than 30 scientific societies and academies of science, including all of the national academies of science of the major industrialized states. One study of over 900 technical papers found no scientists who disagreed with these conclusions although a document called the Oregon Petition contained the names of 14,700 individual scientists who expressed disagreement with some or all of the IPCC conclusions . The only scientific society that denies human-caused global warming is the American Association of Petroleum Geologists.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Blue Tie (talk • contribs)

Well, we can say that "Some scientists say that there is a consensus, while other scientists disagree that there is a consensus" with cites to both -- that seems self-refuting to be sure, but it's consistent with NPOV. Peiser cites several studies showing 25% or more disagreement with the "consensus." THF 06:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Which words in that are weasel words? --Tjsynkral 06:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"Some" would be weasely I think. And in this context, others would also. --Blue Tie 06:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

No, "some" and "other" seem innocent to me. And I'm one of the biggest advocates of removing WW from this particular sentence. --Tjsynkral 06:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, well how do you handle the very first example under WP:AWW? Maybe by exceptions? But remember, the answer has to be justifiable to a large body of people who want to make a point by emphasizing one over the other --Blue Tie 06:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Akhilleus, you may think Peiser is "wrong," but NPOV prevents the article from making that evaluation. If Oreskes is included, Peiser's attempt to replicate Oreskes needs to be included with the same prominence. NPOV and NOR means that it matters little to the article content whether you or I think a particular notable reliable source is wrong or right. THF 06:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

That's silly. Editors can and should use their judgment about which sources can be included. It's easy to conclude that Peiser is wrong by reading his study and responses to it. Nothing about the policies you mention constrain us from saying that Peiser is wrong. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like the very definition of WP:NOR to me. -- THF 06:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not think it is right for a blocking admin to participate in the discussion and call the other side "silly" for their views.

I Agree that editors can and should use their judgment about what sources are to be included. If this were my own article, I would deprecate Oreskes. I think her study is flawed in some fundamental way. But there are many who think she is dead on. Well, if they can value her inputs even while I think her inputs are no good, perhaps they could value THF's advocacy of Peiser even while they would think his views are trash.

I will give an alternative reason why Peiser should not be included -- but then the Oregon Petition should be included. Instead of having the article debate itself over its sources (which looks really bad) instead, just let the article present two sides and let the people at home decide what they want to think. I believe Oreskes did something wrong in her study. I also think the petition, while more transparent also has some problems. I do not think either source is actually better than the other. But by including them, we do not need to argue over the sources. We can state.. "This many articles showed no negative views", but .."This petition has at least this many names that do oppose". Let the reader decide. --Blue Tie 07:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I've just seen the latest edition of the lead paragraph (this version, for clarity) and it seems about right. We note that a peer-reviewed study found a consensus, but then identify that some scientists disagree and by linking to the article, make it clear who is being referred to and their status. The problem with including the OP or Pieser in the lead is that this effectively gives them equal status with Oreskes, which is misleading. The casual reader isn't likely to click through and form an objective opinion based on a detailed evaluation of sources - they'll most likely take the paragraph at face value. Whether we believe Oreskes to be a "good study" is rather irrelevant here, because it's the only one of these three to have been published in a peer-reviewed journal. Making "editorial judgements" about peer-reviewed, non-retracted sources is original research.

Conversely, quoting numbers from the OP as a counter to Oreskes is also OR unless qualified with a fairly hefty statement about their provenance. Pieser's work is similarly unsuitable for inclusion in the lead because it was rejected by Science and partially retracted by its author. Mentions of either of these sources belong perhaps in the controversy article, but not in the lead paragraph of the summary article - that is most definitely undue weight. --YFB ¿ 08:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I find Oreskes in the lead jarring. We already source consensus to the National Academies. We could relegate Oreskes to another footnote (which can provide the current context, footnotes can be more than just literature referenceas). --Stephan Schulz 08:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I think jarring is the right way to put it. But, unless I am wrong, some people want to assert strongly that there is consensus on this. If you leave Oreskes out do you also throw out the fact that there are individual scientists (unnumbered) who are in opposition to the general model? --Blue Tie 08:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, first of all, I do not particularly like that opening for a couple of reasons. I think the first sentence in the article is not correct and I think it can be improved and expanded.

Second, I do not think that putting OP with Oreskes gives them equal standing, but if it does, I am ok with that because I think Oreskes has a big problem.

Third, saying that whether we believe Oreskes to be a good study is irrelevant is not true. There are guidelines related to reliable sources that says that just because something is from a peer reviewed journal, that does not make it right. I am not even sure this was a peer reviewed article since it is not described as one but instead is described as an "essay". And on the archived talk page I quote the guidance from RS which gives permission for editors to judge these sources.

Fourth, I agree that Piesers work should be excluded, but I think so for different reasons -- I do not think wikipedia should impeach its own sources.

Finally, I disagree with your conclusion that mention of either of these sources belongs elsewhere. Because, if it is uncited, there is no justification to put the fact that there is disagreement in the scientific arena on this matter. There must be a cite to justify the statement. Remove the cite.. remove the statement. But that will not fly per NPOV. So you need the cite.

However, if we were change this article so that it was renamed "Science of Global Warming" and then the science was described and also the debates among scientists was included as a section or paragraph or whatever, then the lead would not need ANY sources or cites and the details could be handled in the body of the text. On that note, I specifically do not believe that the article should be JUST about the science as it is seen from the majority perspective. It needs to be an NPOV article and not a fork. --Blue Tie 08:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Oreskes does not belong in the lead - it is excess detail William M. Connolley 09:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

That is starting to appear to be the general agreement. Be interesting to see if everyone agrees. --Blue Tie 09:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I would support leaving Oreskes out of the lead, which might solve a lot of this argument. The intro currently seems dominated by the controversy aspect, which is rather unbalanced. However, I disagree with Blue Tie that the OP needs to remain there - as I said above, the "scientists opposing... " article provides ample evidence to back up the assertion that agreement is not unanimous, without resorting to citing dubious evidence. --YFB ¿ 09:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

OP clearly does not belong and isn't there so we don't have to discuss it. I've removed Oreskes by restoring an earlier version of the whole para - this restores some sol/vol stuff that was removed for no obvious reason William M. Connolley 09:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I was only discussing it because there seemed to be disagreement about whether it should be inserted. I agree with both your changes (restore old paragraph to lead, reduce economics detail). A small detail I noticed is that the restored paragraph refers to 20 national science academies whereas the newer one had 30. --YFB ¿ 09:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any point in counting them William M. Connolley 13:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It's 20 National Academies (or "all who have a formal opinion"), 30+ scientific societies (all but the Oil Driller's Union ;-). --Stephan Schulz 15:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that, Stephan. --YFB ¿ 17:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

William, I see you put back the sol/vol information back into the lead after your revert (fine). Are you fine if it is removed, as the exact same sentence appears in the solar variation section. I think either Schulz or Arritt moved it originally (excessive detail?). ~ UBeR 18:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Fickle blocking

So apparently I was blocked for making one edit to the page. Not reverting, not doing anything of the sort. The administrator who blocked me never responded to my e-mail, and eventually the hour was up.

We need a template atop the page to warn users: DO NOT EDIT OR YOU MAY BE BLOCKED. Whatever happened to Be Bold? This is a chilling effect when administrators can block someone for making one edit - who is going to try to improve the article when they have to worry about being blocked over it? --Tjsynkral 05:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you have a legitimate case for getting that block removed from your history. It was not right. --Blue Tie

Hidden note

Naconkantari added a hidden note to the top of the page. While this is probably a good idea, I feel like the note should probably say "Please do not make any edits or reverts to the article which are reasonably likely to be contested without first discussing on the talk page." We're all aware of the wisdom of discussing controversial edits, but I think as worded the warning might give people the idea that material should only be added, not removed, which is somewhat at odds with the way things currently work. Thoughts on makign this change? --TeaDrinker 06:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Solar variation

Somewhat to my surprise, I see that the sol var stuff has been considerably downgraded - its out of the causes section and is, it seems, proven to be negligible. I'm surprised the skeptics haven't howled about it. I now think it is underweighted and should be moved back up William M. Connolley 09:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Probably should. But I think there might be another issue. Grabbing whole chunks of the article and deleting it without discussion is not in accordance with the plan that the blocking admins came up with. Its no longer "BE BOLD" with this article. Now its "be timid". --11:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Since irradiance has been declining as part of its normal cycle since ~2001, I think putting solar variation in the causes section is absurd because (1) the peer-reviewed citations say it's insignificant, (2) it has recently been subtracting from warming, which would make it the opposite of a cause. However, I am not opposed to keeping the "Causes" section plural on principle. James S. 14:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC) 19:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree it should be moved back up. The machine512 18:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The citation requested in the Solar variation section is on the next sentence. James S. 17:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, what is insignificant? The effects of solar variation, or the amount of variation? I don't think that is made very clear, and that statement is jumping to a somewhat vague conclusion which seemingly contradicts the other statements. The machine512 18:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The amount isn't enough to have a substantial influence over the effects. James S. 18:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

How can it be called a "cause"?

Is there any dispute that solar radiant energy falling on the earth has been decreasing for the past five years, and generally stable in the industrial era? James S. 18:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It's a hypothesis, so yes.— Preceding unsigned comment added by UBeR (talk • contribs)

Who's hypothesis disputes either of those facts? James S. 18:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Solar is generally believed to have increased somewhat from 1900 to about 1950 and been more or less stable since. "Falling on the earth" is a bit ambiguous, as solar radiation also heats the earth if it is absorbed in the atmosphere. And 5 years is too short a time frame to be relevant, as the sun has a 11 year activity cycle. I don't understand UBeR's remark. --Stephan Schulz 18:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The past-5-years stuff is a red herring: there is fairly clearly no great impact of the 11-y solar cycle on climate. This (I think) is attributed to the thermal buffering of the ocean; though I've never seen it properly discussed. The point about the solar variation stuff is that it *has* been suggested as contributing, and that should be mentioned, even if the majority opinion is against it. James S is being unreasonable William M. Connolley 08:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

If the majority opinion is that it is not a cause, why do you want it in the causes section? James S. 11:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

For the obvious reason: that this article reports more than just the majority opinion. There are people that believe this stuff and they publish papers on it William M. Connolley 12:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Survey: Is solar variation a "cause" "in recent decades"?

As long as the first one-sentence paragraph includes the qualifier "in recent decades" then I will maintain that solar variation is not a "cause." Agree or disagree; why or why not? James S. 18:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Multi-Point viewpoint

There is significant text missing from this article, namely the 7 or so points (paragraphs) that discussed many facts opposing either the hypothesis that the globe is warming and whether or not global warming, if it is occuring, is significantly or even mildly affected by human activities.

I may have this archived - I will look and submit for review, but it is my belief that it was maliciously removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jzeman (talk • contribs) 13:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

Econ

I'm not convinced by the entire removal of the econ para. What was left there seemed a fair discussion of the large uncertainties: propaganda section was unjustified William M. Connolley 13:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm baffled: Sm has reinserted the over-long and badly pro-Stern biased econ section. Even if well-written it wouldn't belong; as written, it certainly doesn't William M. Connolley 15:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It appears properly-sourced and referenced. If it were well-written, in what way would it not belong here? --Sm8900 15:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The entire section places undue weight on one of dozens to hundreds of economic impact studies. Hal peridol 16:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

To clarify - the Stern review is not representative of most of the studies of the impact of galobal warming on the economy. I provided some information from the IPCC AR4 SPM concerning the equivalent social cost of carbon emissions, based on a number of studies, that James put in. I believe that that is a sufficient summary of the overall economic impact. As William points out, it does discuss the size and to some extent nature of the uncertainties. Hal peridol 16:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Hal. Are you saying that the other sources, other than Stern, were written by you? Thanks. --Sm8900 16:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this will help your reading comprehension:"information from the IPCC AR4 SPM".Hal peridol 16:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, perhaps I was unclear. I simply meant to ask, did you add the material on sources other than Stern. I was not meaning to argue over the material. Thanks. --Sm8900 16:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah - my apologies, I did misunderstand. I posted a few quotes and some info from the SPM to the talk page, in an attempt to reach some consensus with James, because I thought (and still think) that the article as it stands is too long. In particular, there is already quite a lot of information on possible effects and impacts in the various sub-articles. James actually added this part to the page. I'm trying (not so successfully, I guess) to steer clear of the Global warming topic right now, since it's a huge time sinkhole even just trying to keep up with the changes. Anyhow, thanks -Hal peridol 16:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Hal. No problem. Thanks for your help. if the econ section is the result of several editors, who added referenced sources for different, balanced views, then I feel that it is a balanced, well-sourced section. Thanks. --Sm8900 16:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no justification for such a long section on econ. I've cut it back down to the first para. James S has a distinctly POV desire to include as much Stern as possible but Stern is an outlier William M. Connolley 08:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

As much Stern as possible? I trimmed that section down from what you deleted, and put it in line with the other sections, covering what other people had added in reverse chronological order. I didn't write any of its original text, although I did clarify some wording.

Stern is an outlier, because he is the first to have computed through 2200. So, he should be given additional weight. Mention of the other studies should be removed because they stop at 2100.

"has a distinctly POV desire" is a personal attack. I think you are unhappy because you got caught when you said that the "vast majority of economists ... simply don't accept (Stern's) values" which is not true. Do you have any support for your characterization of the vast majority of economists? James S. 10:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Mention of the other studies should be removed because they stop at 2100 is absurd, and a fine example of why you got banned. Stern is an outlier because of his discount rate. I disagree with JQ re others views of Stern William M. Connolley 10:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The difference between a present value computation of an asset which takes a short view and one which takes a long view is that the one which takes the long view is better. There is no way Stern could not be familiar with perpetuity calculation. Do you have any evidence to back up your characterization of the vast majority of economists or not? James S. 10:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

You appear unable to accept that the discount rate is the main issue with Stern. But this isn't the Stern discussion page William M. Connolley 12:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Controversy and politics

I believe that the sentence, "The US government has ordered scientists it employs to refrain from discussing subjects related to global warming," is a fair summary of the underlying articles, so I intend to replace it. However, in doing so, I am not making "war," even as it is defined in WP:EW; nor am I engaging in a "revert duel." I am reversing the previous editor's deletion of that sentence because I believe they for some reason were not aware that the sentence correctly summarizes several events in the underlying articles. James S. 15:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The sentence is clearly controversial; nor is it obviously approriate in a global article. Nor is it anything to do with the science. I encourage you to leave it out William M. Connolley 15:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

How can you possibly say that the threat of loss of employment for insubordination, for which I think we have half a dozen uncontested examples, is not a direct assault on the integrity of the scientific professions? There is no question that the US government provides lucrative career and pension opportunities for employees willing to follow orders, even if those orders conflict with the necessity of uncensored scientific communication. When lobbyists can offer campaign contributions in exchange for control over scientific reports, that most certainly is controversial, and that is exactly why it belongs in the section discussing controversy. James S. 15:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Have there been countries other than the US asking their scientists to refrain from discussing their areas of expertise? James S. 18:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

How about this sentence?

US officials, such as Philip Cooney, have repeatedly edited scientific reports from US government scientists, many of whom, such as Thomas Knutson, have been ordered to refrain from discussing climate change and related topics.

James S. 16:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Can you please provide a direct cite for your statement that scientists were ordered to rfrain from discussing this? Also, how about this phrasing:

US officials, such as Philip Cooney, have repeatedly edited scientific reports from US government scientists. It has been alleged that many scientists, such as Thomas Knutson, have been ordered to refrain from discussing climate change and related topics.

That seems more NPOV to me. thanks. --Sm8900 16:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"It has been alleged" is a weasel phrase. Please see page 30 of Donaghy, T., et al. (2007) "Atmosphere of Pressure:" a report of the Government Accountability Project (Cambridge, Mass.: UCS Publications). James S. 16:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

it is not a weasel phrase. I would suggest we not use labels on each other's ideas. You can simply explain why it is or is not warranted in this cse. I am trying to help you. please do not create a contentious atmosphere where none exists. If you have a different view, that is fine. Using labels for my simple suggestions creates a tone of cotentiousness. I would like to be able to simply discuss this article. Thanks. --Sm8900 16:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Calling something an allegation implies that it is still in dispute. Officials don't deny that there have been specific orders to refrain from discussions, because those orders are documented. I'm sorry if I offended you, but I hope you would call my choice of words weaselly if they implied a controversy about something that was not in dispute. James S. 17:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi James. I appreciate your helpful reply and positive tone. the answer is no, i would not call your words weaselly in such a case. Those words get overused much too often around here. I have written frequently for articles on Mideast issues, which are more contentious then these. In those articles, people still do not use labels, as it is understood that their views are at odds, and they do not need to refer to such general terms to indicate that. i understand the use of such terms sometimes is meant to help to identify an underlying issue, but I find them to unhelpful generally. I appreciate our ability to discuss the substance of this. --Sm8900 17:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

If the order are documented, then that sounds good. Could you please cite that direct fact in your text? thanks. --Sm8900 17:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Added. James S. 17:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

James, I agree with your material, only that the summary on the GW page is not intended for details. Summaries do not rely on references, so this material belongs on the Politics of global warming article. Putting this here begins to bring in non-peer-reviewed, non-scientific material to this page, which we've achieved a consensus on remaining focused on global warming itself, not the political fallout from it. --Skyemoor 17:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I am not aware of any such consensus having agreed to that. i think one of the ways to solve the edit war is to foster a greater atmosphere of inclusiveness here. there is no consensus on what you just described, and in fact that is part of the reason for edit wars occurring.

I would like to see one simple principle accepted here. We can agree that we all have some diverse views on the scope of articles. Let's try agreeing that if others make good-faith edits, we can try just letting them be. That is the path to greater co-operation. We can slowly let an atmosphere of greater inclusiveness prevail, and take a look at the overall product after a certain period of time. I think that would be a good course of action for all of us. Thanks. --Sm8900 17:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no such consensus. ~ UBeR 17:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

You admitted so yourself in the following discussion(emphasis mine). --Skyemoor 19:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"Apparently a lot of the editors here have been very stringent on using only the "research published in the leading peer reviewed journals that are well cited by climate scientists should be included" for referencing science material. It appears William added a link to his blog for one of the statements in the solar variation section. Surely, there should be some peer-reviewed paper indicating the information we have in the article? ~ UBeR 21:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)"

First, I'm saying there's no consensus in reply to your statement that this article is to be 100% natural science. Second, on the peer-reviewed sources, I was pointing out that de facto we have used peer-reviewed and published materials to cite scientific material in this article. That is why I pointed out the blog being used as a reference. However, it appears everyone disagreed with me, and agreed that trifling sources like blogs can be used. ~ UBeR 19:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I missed that debate. I'm still in favor of using only information that can be found in the leading peer reviewed journals. Of course, if the contents of an article is also reproduced on some blog then it can be preferable to link to that blog instead to the journal Science, which can be accessed only if you are subscribed to that journal. I would thus not approve of the link to William's blog unless it can be shown that what he has posted on his blog is published. Count Iblis 20:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you, Count Iblis. In fact, I used a direct quote from you, which I thought was perhaps the norm on this article, that only the "research published in the leading peer reviewed journals that are well cited by climate scientists should be included" for referencing science material. Even though a guideline allows almost anything, I suspected we'd keep high standards for such a pretentious article. However, William, Skyemoor, Schulz, and Arritt all disagreed. ~ UBeR 21:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Review of the various summaries.

It may be prudent to do a review of the summaries. I've just cut one paragraph which while probably correct, wasn't mentioned in the source article (not to mention poorly sourced - which is why i noticed it). The summaries should be short concise descriptions of the various articles, and (imho) not include new stuff that isn't a reflection of the material or text presented in these. Am i completely wrong in this? --Kim D. Petersen 22:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

No, you are absolutely correct. We have the regrettable situation at the moment that people are editing the "summaries" to suit themselves, and paying no attention to the individual sub-pages. We could avoid a lot of controversy (here) if the sub-pages were sorted out first William M. Connolley 11:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Peer Review vs Other Sources

This article should abide by WP:RS which does not exclude sources other than peer reviewed journals. I would not even have a problem with some limited inclusion of William's research (he is an expert, particularly in models) but I would want to keep that to a minimum (as I expect he would also) and it would be best if items could be supported not from blogs.

Having said that, the purpose and title of the article make a difference. If the article is renamed The science of global warming then it should significantly favor peer reviewed articles. It is, after all, a science article. But if it retains its current name, Global warming it must be larger and broader than it is now and include topics that are not going to be covered in peer-reviewed journals. --Blue Tie 01:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Non-Weasel Words

Blue Tie, for the second time, please read WP:NPOV which states "Views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skyemoor (talk • contribs) 02:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC).

Doesn't matter. The policy does not say "quote us in the article". "Tiny" is a weasel word. shall we get a third opinion on this?--Blue Tie 02:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

How about "teenie tiny minority"? :) Maybe there is too much emphasis is on the numbers here. Every single time some viewpoint or idea is expressed must we state "9 scientists believe this", "400 believe this"? What purpose does this serve, to inform the reader that one is right and the other is wrong through vague numbers? The machine512 03:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I think we should have the percentage. James S. 11:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Tiny minority view

Well - for once i agree with Blue Tie here - that sentence is too much, it reads better as "....other hypotheses have been...". But i still have problems with that paragraph. Particularly this sentence "have been proposed to explain all or most of the observed increase in global temperatures" - i have been tempted several times to add a tag to that one.... First of all - what hypotheses are these? And secondly - can anyone mention even a single hypotheses which explains "all or most"? (for instance solar variation cannot explain the lack of stratospheric warming). --Kim D. Petersen 02:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry that it is only for once. I hope that we may find areas where we can mutually agree. --Blue Tie 02:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Over-reliance on an editorial for weasel word content

I believe that relying upon the editorial to declare that there is only one scientific society is marginal. Unless they did a poll, that source is simply someone's opinion. For the sake of honesty the quote should really read "and the American Quaternary Association believes that there is only one organization that denies" or something like that. But I have not argued for that because, frankly I suspect that there might be others but I do not know of any; it reads better the way it is and it is not that important to me. But it might be important to others and I would not argue with them.

However, to rely upon that editorial for the use of the weasel word "few" in this article is stretching the limits too far. WP:AWW does not say "weasel words need to be cited". It says they should be avoided. Lets get them out of this article. They are just bait for debate anyway. Remove that. --Blue Tie 02:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence (beside your own gut feeling) of any other scientific society that does? If not, then I see no reason why the reference already provided is not suffecient. Raul654 02:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Nope. But also note that I specifically said I was not arguing against that. So why exactly do you bring this up? If someone else wants to bring it up, I think its a valid point but I do not particularly care that much. I just think the source is sketchy. It is "debate by proxy". --Blue Tie 02:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The source reflects an opinion of an advocacy organization that there are "few" disagreeing scientists. This is not a statement being made with a claim to factual accuracy - it only reflects the opinion of an organization that has a vested interest in minimizing the scientific contributions of scientists who oppose their stance on global warming. I think it is inappropriate to use this source to claim either that AAPG is the only scientific society in disagreement or that there are "few" opposing scientists. Ironically I would be sooner inclined to believe Oreskes on that than this (well, since the other side used the word first) propaganda. --Tjsynkral 02:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Some points: (1) The statement is not an editorial. It's an "article... presented by the Council of the AMQUA" . (2) AMQA is a reliable external source—not an advocacy organization, but a scientific society which "is a professional organization of North American scientists devoted to studying all aspects of the Quaternary Period, about the last 2 million years of Earth history." (3) The standard for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. As AMQA is reliable source which uses "few", it is acceptable to use that wording even if this was derived just from the council members' personal opinions. That is, it is not our job to decide ultimate truth; we just give citations. Now, if there are comparably reliable external sources which challenge that wording, then it might require revision. Do you know of any? --Nethgirb 03:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the statement is an editorial. I would hate to get into a debate about what constitutes an editorial but I have a hard time reading it and thinking that any reasonable person would not recognize it as an editorial statement. Sure, it is an editorial presented by a committee, but that does not make it any less an editorial. And sure, it is an editorial by an esteemed committee, but again, that does not make it any less an editorial.

I understand that the standard for inclusion is Verifiability, not truth. That is why I used the term "debate by proxy". In essence it means that "if I can find someone else whose opinion I can quote, then I can include it in an article". While that is a valid wikipedia standard (at least for now), I would hope editors would not really do that because it opens the floodgates of debate by proxy. Shall we go there? Its a bad downward road.

If you really truly want to go down the road where all we need to do is find some source somewhere that provides support for a position as long as it meets minimum WP:RS standards (and then we do not exercise any judgment on them) we can really screw this article up big time. Is that what you really want to support? I am not in favor, but the rules do allow it. --Blue Tie 03:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Blue Tie, I suppose whether we call it an "editorial" or not doesn't matter much, so we can agree to disagree there. Also, I see your point that "debate by proxy" could get ugly and certainly I have experienced this :-). But that is not the current situation. The situation is that we have a reliable source (by your own admission) explicitly backing up a statement, and a huge amount of supporting evidence from many reliable sources. If you think the statement is incorrect, at a minimum we need to find some comparably reliable sources which state otherwise. Then, we can try to exercise good judgement in deciding what is fair. But the current situation is not the opinion of a reliable source vs. another reliable source; it is the opinion of a reliable source vs. the opinion of certain editors here, who as far as I can tell have provided no external citations in this discussion. --Nethgirb 03:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Even an editorial in a peer-reviewed journal is reliable if there is no contradiction to it. Has anyone suggested that there is a second scientific society which agrees with the AAPG? James S. 11:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

1. "Consensus About Climate Change?"
2. American Quaternary Association (5 September 2006). "Petroleum Geologists' Award to Novelist Crichton Is Inappropriate" (pdf). Eos. 87 (3): 364. stands alone among scientific societies in its denial of human-induced effects on global warming.
3. "Climate Change Policy" (cfm). American Association of Petroleum Geologists. Retrieved 2007-03-30.
4. Cite error: The named reference grida7 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
5. "Consensus About Climate Change?"
6. Oregon Petition
7. American Quaternary Association (5 September 2006). "Petroleum Geologists' Award to Novelist Crichton Is Inappropriate" (pdf). Eos. 87 (3): 364. stands alone among scientific societies in its denial of human-induced effects on global warming.
8. "Climate Change Policy" (cfm). American Association of Petroleum Geologists. Retrieved 2007-03-30.
9. Campbell, D. (June 20, 2003) "White House cuts global warming from report" Guardian Unlimited
10. Campbell, D. (June 20, 2003) "White House cuts global warming from report" Guardian Unlimited

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