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Talk:It ain't over till the fat lady sings

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Origination

This term was indeed coined by sportscaster Dan Cook. {{helpme}} I wish to insert part of an internet article with additional information on the subject, but your information on additions state that is not permissible.

I was sure I had seen that "saying" in "Catcher in the Rye" when I read it in the early fifties.

Found substantiation of its use by Salinger on a page entitled "Mr. Gross' Home Page" at a site named Webdreamer

I hope I am not violating a rule by clicking 'Save page' I am entirely new to participating. 

 Thank you

Franmorris 05:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)=franmorris

It's copyright if you just save copy and paste. If you can reword it, so this not a generic copy, then its allowed. Have a read of WP:Copyright Brian | (Talk) 06:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure it the article is factually correct; at least, this page: claims Cook didn't actually invent the phrase.

It should be noted that the above dissenting opinion is not valid. They refer to a another source, a book of quotatiosn where the phrase is 'the opera isn't over...'. While a minor difference and quite likely a contributer of the common phrase starting with 'it ain't over...', the phrase we hear almost too often did seem to start with Cook. Besides, the article mentions similar phrases that may have led to it all, from 'it ain't over til it's over' and references to fat women singing in church.

Dan Cook and the Time Machine?

If the phrase occurs before 1978, then it isn't a possible alternate origin. Unless Dan Cook has a time machine, his attribution is incorrect. Professor Ninja 12:02, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

which opera?

The article claims that the originator of the quote was voicing a stereotypical view of opera. Actually there are two operas that fit the bill: TRISTAN AND ISOLDE and TWILIGHT OF THE GODS, both by Wagner. Both are very long operas in which the soprano appears at the end, after a long absense from the stage, to sing a powerful closing aria (LIEBESTOD in the first case, BRUNNHILDE'S IMMOLATION SCENE in the second). One version of the story is that a bored little boy in the audience kept asking whether the opera was over, to which his father replied, accurately but not very elegantly, "it ain't over 'til the fat lady sings." CharlesTheBold 03:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Examples?

Deleted. Who cares? That is, would anyone wanting to know about the saying give two hoots about its use in the Simpsons or Independence Day? What relevance do these have to the actual saying, other than fluffiest trivia? - David Gerard 09:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

  • I think a short list should be restored (probably as "References in Popular Culture"). A short list of uses in popular culture justifies that it really IS a saying, and one that's important enough to know about (to understand popular culture). I haven't done so, b/c I'm curious about what others think. Dwheeler 15:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Another explanation I have heard before

I heard that "the fat lady" is actually referring to the whistle, meaning that the game isn't over until the whistle is blown signifying the end of the game. The quote on this article, "The opera ain't over until the fat lady sings" seems to show that this is actually not the case. I can understand how the whistle interpretation may have been drawn from incorrect knowledge of the saying's origins, but it may be worth further discussion. Has anyone else heard this before? Syckls 15:25, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

No, and it's pretty far-fetched. The saying refers to opera, specifically the Brunhilde stereotype complete with horned helmet, breastplate and spear. Also, Earl Weaver used to use that expression, and there are no whistles used in baseball. Baseball Bugs 03:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Requested move (old)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


Here are some reasons why I believe "till" should be used in the page name:

  • Google: ~12,000 hits for the phrase with "'til" and ~30,000 for the phrase with "till" (~11,000 hits with "until" )
  • Grammar: According to "The Columbia Guide to Standard American English" (1993), " 'Til is a variant spelling used by those who think (incorrectly) that till is a clipped form. At best it looks old-fashioned and self-conscious. Use till instead." Ulmanor 18:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


Suggestion

In my opinion, the name of article is less important so long as the article itself states that variations of this phrase exist, and briefly lists examples of variations. Just a suggestion. Gracenotes § 20:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It seems a little silly to be debating whether "'til" is grammatically correct when the phrase contains "ain't". Dekimasuよ! 05:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Eh. On behalf of 131.252.230.164 (talk · contribs), I'm wondering what would be the best title for the article. In newspaper sports articles, the two are used about as often (with "till" used more frequently than "'til"). Regardless of the title, I am altering the article to mention both, if no one minds. Gracenotes § 20:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 14:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

This template must be substituted. Replace {{Requested move ...}} with {{subst:Requested move ...}}. Using "'til" instead of "till" is blatantly incorrect English, and we should move the article to reflect that fact. "Till" is not a contraction of "until", it is a proper word by itself and it is in fact far older than "until". Google "'til till" and look at some of the results from the experts, they all say the same thing (e.g. ). Since there was a previous discussion of a move over this issue that failed, I thought I should bring it up again, even though this is pretty much an open and shut case --Oskar 00:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Yet you don't have a problem with "ain't"? Baseball Bugs 02:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
You're going to apply the Oxford Dictionary to something that was said out loud and someone wrote down? I don't know about this one, but the parallel saying by Yogi Berra is written this way on p.121 of Berra's own book, The Yogi Book, L.T.D. Enterprises, 1998: "It ain't over 'til it's over." Baseball Bugs 03:43, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Since this article about the proverb itself, rather than Dan Cook's original line (which was slightly different), the Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs will be the most reliable source for the correct spelling of the proverb. Masaruemoto 07:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Applying the Oxford Dictionary to this line is about as pretentious as calling it a "proverb". Baseball Bugs 12:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Listen, all the English guides says that "'til" is incorrect and "till" should be used, but if that isn't enough you can google the term and almost exclusively the "till"-usage comes up (e.g ). If that isn't enough, you can search bartleby, and find Dan Cook's original quotation, and yes, it uses "till". Can anyone give me any good reason why it should be "'til"? I mean, come on, the evidence is all pointing in one direction! --Oskar 21:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't really matter. Just have it your way, and have a redirect from the other way. Baseball Bugs 23:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
And by the way, "till" is a synonym of "until". Baseball Bugs 23:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
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