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/Archive 1

Homosexuality and Christianity

I have undone a couple of your edits to Homosexuality and Christianity

Explained why on the talk page. Among other things, I don't think there is a consensus in favour of using the word "sodomy", which does not have a single agreed-upon meaning. Skoojal (talk) 22:39, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I used the term because that is the term used in the Bible. Many churches are against sodomy, not against homosexual orientation. Trying to suggest that one or more churches are against homsexuals, based on their interpretation of biblical referecnes is innacurate. The problem that the definition of sodomy is not well agreed upon is not my, or our problem. We should quote the scriptures, not make assumptions about all of Christiantity.

For instance "Throughout a portion of Christian history some theologians have viewed homosexuality as immoral." This clearly is not accurate. Through most of Christian History, Sodomy has been viewed as immoral, and some Christiant have castigated homesexuals based on that.

Then, redundantly the article gives again "Historically, most Christian churches have regarded homosexual behavior as immoral." Now, the churches that have been against homosexuals are against "anal intercourse" which is how they interpret "sodomy". The broad term "homosexual behavior" is too broad, as churches don't feel that men loving other men, or men kissing other men is immoral, only men performing "sodomy" on/with other men.

My point is that fundamentalist and conservative Christian organizations (the ones that show hatred and prejudice toward gays and lesbians) base that on biblical references, most of which are directly related to biblical quotes regarding "sodomy".

Furthermore you said " Historically, most Christian churches have regarded homosexual behavior as immoral. This position is today held by the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches, and Evangelical Protestant churches such as the Southern Baptist Convention. On May 15, 2008, for example, the Roman Catholic bishops of California issued a statement explaining their opposition to the state supreme court ruling of the same day which effectively legalized same-sex marriage."

The Catholic Church dogmatic position is that homosexuality is "gravely disordered" and immoral. Now, Catholicism has not always felt that way, that has only been the position for five or six hundred years. SO, saying that they have "historically" regarded homsexuality as immoral is debatable depending on how long something has to be some way to be "historically" their position. HIstorically, for most of Catholic history, homsexuality was not considered "immoral".

Unlike many Christian denominations that oppose discrimination against gay and lesbian people in civil society, the SBC has gone on record as supporting it.

The SBC has never had a historically firm position, their position has continually gone through change, and at this time, just slightly more than 50% of Southern Baptists supported a resolution to "uphold a traditional view". Suggesting nearly half of southern baptists disagree.

In nearly half of the state conventions, a resolution upheld a traditional view of marriage or expressed concern for corporate support of homosexuality. State or national laws upholding a definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman were supported through statements passed in Alabama, Colorado, the Dakotas, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, New Mexico and the Northwest. In Colorado, a resolution opposed statute changes pertaining to domestic relationships.

Also, Catholics and Southern Baptists hardly qualify the statement "most Christian churches ..."

Atom (talk) 23:24, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

That the definition of sodomy is not clear is a problem for absolutely anyone who reads that article. You'll probably find that most other editors agree with me about this. Homosexual behavior is a more suitable term. You may have a strongly held point of view, but getting the Homosexuality and Christianity article to reflect scripture isn't possible or desirable. Skoojal (talk) 23:29, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I apologize for stepping on your toes. I don't claim to be an expert on the topic. I am heterosexual, but believe that this kind of prejudice is wrong. I am also a Buddhist, not Christian. I recognize that the issue is difficult for many Christians. A large proportion of Catholics and Souther Baptists (chosen because you cvhose them in the article) are against this kind of prejudice. In the case of the Catholic church, in the U.S. they may even predominate. But, worldwide amongst Catholics that may be less true, and also the Catholic church is unique in that it doesn't matter what the congregatin wants, church dogma set by the secret brotherhood of priests, and ultimately the Pope is what rules. They are a remnant of the roman empire, after all. Amongsth southern baptists, the people of the church 'are the church, and although slightly more than half have decided that their prejudice is necessary, just less than half feel that this kind of prejudics is morally wrong. Many, many other churches have the same controversy.

Regarding sodomy, reading the article the primary foundation of prejudice by conservative Christians hinges on bible verses that say that sodomy is wrong. There is apparently nothing in the bible that says that loving other people is wrong. There are a number of things in the bible, such as things in leviticus, that are completely ignored by conservative Christians, but they have chosen to not ignore sodomy. As the foundation of their prejudice against homosexuals is based on their decision to enforce the bible's rules against sodomy, and to interpret sodomy as anal sex, it is my belief that the emphasis of the article should be on that. If the interpretation of the definition of sodomy is ambiguous, then their justification for prejudice is ambiguous.

By leaving out the foundation of their beliefs, we relegate the article to only explaining the current stance of each church on homosexuality based on their policy and dogma. With most protestant churches that is a constantly shifting reality. The SBC alone, has argued about this and changed their position subtlely for many years, and is very likely to come out against discrimination against homsexuals in a few years. (Love the sinner, hate the sin -- their words). The Catholic church is not likely to change their cathechism anytime soon, especially with the bad man that is currently their leader. But, given that there already exists a great schism between U.S./European Catholics and the rest of the church on may positions it is quite likely that the church will swing from its ultra conservative stance currently towards reality in a few generations (once the current pope's influence wanes.)

In summary, if the foundation for their belief boils down to a literal interpretation of one or more bible verses that condemn sodomy, then we should not say in the article that they are "against homossexuals" or "against homsexuality" or "against homosexual behavior" when really, what they are against is sodomy.

Atom (talk) 15:31, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

In response to the above: I do not see at as 'homosexual' for two men to love each other in a non-sexual way. It hardly makes sense to speak of something as homosexual unless it involves a sexual component, and 'homosexual behavior' is as good a term as any for this. Skoojal (talk) 03:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Not to open an old discussion, but the assertion that "sodomy" is the term used in the Bible is completely false. No such word is used in the KJV, and certainly no comparable word existed in the original text. It is actually quite likely (and the consensus among most Jewish Biblical scholars) that the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah was brought about because the residents of those cities abandoned a time-honored tradition of accepting visitors into their home unconditionally (a rather important custom for a people traveling about in the desert, hmmm?) rather than anything to do with teh buttsecks.

As an atheist, I used to feel that getting Christians to change their mind about whether homosexuality was a sin or not was rather superfluous -- a bit like convincing the KKK to open up their membership to African-Americans :D After seeing For the Bible Tells Me So recently, I have changed my mind. Not only is it critically important to speak out about this, but it is not clear that even a literal interpretation of the Bible prohibits homosexuality for anything but the ancient Jews (The oft-quoted section in Leviticus was laying down the laws of the Jewish people wandering the desert, not immutable commandments from "God". There may be a passage in the New Testament that condemns homosexuality, but it's not clear from the text whether "God" was pissed off because of the homosexual sex per se, or if because the sex was taking place as part of week-long drunken orgies...)

(Sorry to butt in, I still had your page on my Watchlist from the whole mess with Whistling... who I notice hasn't been on-wiki in 11 days. I hope Whistling is okay... :/ ) --Jaysweet (talk) 12:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, I just want to assert that the position that "I am not against homosexuals, just homosexual sex" does not in any way reduce the bigotry. "I'm not against African-Americans, I'm just against their skin being black. You see, their ancestry isn't what's sinful, it's the color of their skin, and if they would just get it bleached...." --Jaysweet (talk) 12:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment

Hi Skoojal,

I haven't responded to the comment that you left me on my talkpage but rather on Talk:Conversion therapy. I'll leave it up to you whether you want to continue any conversation there or on User talk:Conmalone.

Best , Conor (talk) 02:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The reason why I responded to you on your talk page was because the conversion therapy talk page is becoming unmanageably long. I've requested Dybryd to archive some past discussions to make it more manageable. Skoojal (talk) 03:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Archiving

Hey there,

I will certainly take a look at previous edits to Talk:Conversion therapy and see what others have done. I am more than happy to spend a few minutes retrieving previously deleted discussions and archiving inactive discussions that are currently taking up space on the talk page. I'll do that by the weekend. Thanks for bringing the need for archiving to everyone's attention. If you respond to this, please do so on my talk page or on the article's talk page as I'm not watching yours. Peace. Conor (talk) 01:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Ownership

Hi Skoojal,

Taken from User talk:GeneralBelly: GeneralBelly, on Haiduc's talk page recently you wrote, 'After seeing your posts on the LGBT board (kudos), I thought you might be interested in looking at Talk:Conversion therapy and perhaps examining any ownership issues that might be more apparent to someone not involved in editing it.' If this was directed at me, let me reply: I don't try to 'own' articles. Skoojal (talk) 23:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. That was a general request that I made that I made to a number of users for all edits to be assessed for ownership issues - my own included. I fully realise that I'm not immune to bias. I hope that clears things up. Peace. Conor (talk) 00:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry

Sorry about that, my proxy is running slow. I may have to reboot! :-D... anyways just ignore my welcome template. Ciao! --Eric (mailbox) 04:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Whatever. Skoojal (talk) 04:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

template?

I see you've been working on the Sexual orientation article. I don't suppose you'd have time to look in on the Sexual orientation template, which is completely nutty and getting nuttier by the second? It'd be a real help.

Dybryd (talk) 05:01, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a look at it, but no promises as to what I can do. Skoojal (talk) 06:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

just ran across this

Help:Archiving_a_talk_page Dybryd (talk) 02:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

see talk

Skoojal, I added something to the discussion of the primal therapy article.Twerges (talk) 10:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

thought you might be interested:

Not sure of what encyclopedic value there is in it (i've only read parts of it so far), but thought you might be interested in the book at this site (downloadable/updated version of a print book). It is a book by 2 of your fellow new zealanders about the nature vs. nuture debate. User529 (talk) 12:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Neil Whitehead? I'm aware of him. I appreciate some of his points, but I don't find him reliable, any more than the other side is reliable. Skoojal (talk) 21:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Freud

Hi Skoojal - thanks for the 'call'. I like the work you have been doing to the Freud article - removing loads of drivel and a few WP:coatracks. More Wiki articles need this sort of attention. However I prefer to put my effort into main pages rather than getting sucked into dialogues on talk pages with "people with very fixed views". I am afraid I don't know much about people like Lacan (is it?) who were not the direct progeny of Freud. Keep up the good work Motmit (talk) 16:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Tendentious editing on Freud

Hi Skoojal. What is your issue with Lacan? I mean, really, every scholar who has any familiarity with the history of psychoanalysis in Europe (and particularly in France) can tell you that Lacan is an extremely important part of the narrative of Freud's legacy. Why are you so intent on deleting mention of Lacan? It seems particularly ridiculous when you are encouraging us to keep a reference to Deleuze and Guattari's Anti-Oedipus, a work whose entire raison d'etre has been characterized as an attempt to undermine the predominance of Lacanian analysis in France. What is your agenda here Skoojal? It does not seem to be about improving articles here -- you seem specifically focused on effacing the Lacanian contribution (just like on the Foucault article you seem singlemindedly focused on discrediting Foucault in the most sensationalistic manner you can find). If you are really trying to improve these articles, can you please share with us why you think these things are improvements? Or, failing that, can you please stop doing this? You make plenty of positive contributions to the articles, but when other editors notice that certain of your edits fly in the face of what reliable sources have to say about the issue, you should recognize that you do not own these pages and yield to consensus. csloat (talk) 21:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I have no "issue" (I dislike that term) with Lacan. I repeat that, if you look closely at the Freud article, you will see that I have not deleted all mention of Lacan, and I have no intention of doing so. I am not actually encouraging anyone to keep the mention of Deleuze and Guattari's book there; I've simply decided not to remove it. The comments about that book you restored have little or no relevance to the article. I do not believe your changes are supported by consensus. Skoojal (talk) 21:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

That is true you have left Lacan's name on lists where there is no explanation, but you have deleted it from the sections where the discussion should point to it. You have butchered the section on Freud's legacy specifically so you can get around having to mention Lacan -- it seems very strange. And the consensus was pretty clear among those who participated in the discussion that Lacan is an important part of Freud's legacy. So, can you please explain why you wish to erase evidence of Lacan's importance? Thanks. csloat (talk) 21:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

The 'philosophy' section was badly confused. It seemed to equate 'philosophy' with the humanities in general, which is wrong. Unfortunately, you restored that. If the section is actually about the humanities in general and not simply philosophy, then mentioning only Lacan and the Frankfurt School exaggerates their importance out of all proportion. Skoojal (talk) 21:38, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

That is easily fixed without deleting the entire section. csloat (talk) 22:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I never deleted the entire section. I simply removed questionable material. Skoojal (talk) 22:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

You're nitpicking - you know as well as I that you removed every sentence save one, leaving the section demonstrably inferior almost to the point of unintelligibility. There was nothing "questionable" about the material you deleted at all, as we have demonstrated throughout the discussion. Again, all you need to do is fix the word "philosophy" if it bothers you, not butcher the section completely beyond repair. csloat (talk) 23:48, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I am insisting on accuracy. I did not remove the section. The cut down section is perfectly intelligble - it was the longer version that was confused, because of the questionable material it contained. I do not know who the "we" you refer to is - please say who you mean. Skoojal (talk) 23:50, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

You are not insisting on accuracy; you are deleting accurate material as part of some weird campaign against certain aspects of Freud's legacy. You have never shown what is "questionable" about the material you are deleting, and your vehement defensiveness about deleting it suggests ownership problems with the page. The "we" I referred to included all of those who participated in the discussion on the talk page, primarily you and myself. Hope this helps your understanding. csloat (talk) 23:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

When I wrote that I was insisting on accuracy, I was referring to your false claim that I removed the philosophy section entirely, as opposed to simply cutting it back. The material you refer to as 'accurate' is indeed questionable, as I pointed out in the edit summary when I removed it. The Freud talk page would be a better place to discuss all this. Skoojal (talk) 23:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

You did not "simply cut it back." You butchered it, removing everything except for one sentence which seems lost without any explanation or discussion. What you deleted may not have been perfect but you have shown nothing "questionable" about it except that you called it questionable. This is the very definition of tendentious editing. Cut it out. csloat (talk) 00:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I have discussed this on the Freud talk page. If you want to discuss this issue, it would be better to do it there (and to get into more detail, as opposed to repeating the same vague, general claims you've made about my editing). Skoojal (talk) 00:06, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes we can continue there however you have yet to identify anything at all "questionable" about the material you removed, so stop pretending that you "have discussed this on the Freud talk page." And, frankly, my claims about your editing have been quite specific, not "vague." Hopefully you will stop being tendentious now. Thank you! csloat (talk) 00:35, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

stop edit warring with me

Skoojal,

Stop undoing everything I do. You're starting undo wars for no reason.

Twerges (talk) 01:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Twerges, I am not "undoing everything" you do. Please be clear about this. I have never even bothered to edit many of the articles that you have edited. I have given my reasons for the changes I have made, and remember, it takes two to edit war. Try asking other editors for their opinions about the disputed issues. Skoojal (talk) 01:12, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

"try to be more civil"...

My post was perfectly civil.

"I have never even bothered to edit many of the articles that you have edited."

I meant recently.

"it takes two to edit war. Try asking other editors for their opinions about the disputed issues."

Whom would I ask? The other editors left after being booted or warned. I doubt randroide cares about this issue.

I don't wish to go through the entire procedure of requesting comments etc over this. I just reverted the introduction to how it was before I edited it.Twerges (talk) 01:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has a formal procedure for asking for a third opinion. You could use that. Or, you could ask Randroide to find out what she thinks; how do you know what her view is if you don't ask? You could even try discussing the disagreements with me; who knows, I might change my mind, if you can give me a good reason for doing that. Skoojal (talk) 02:34, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Template and Non-heterosexual

Please stop removing Template:Sexual orientation from articles, you've already done it to sexual orientation and homosexuality, they are there for a reason. And do not remove Non-heterosexual, that is a term use is sexology and was places on the articles for a reason. --Cooljuno411 (talk) 11:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

So tell me what the reason is. I see no reason for the presence of that template. Skoojal (talk) 23:24, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Simon Levay.

Then next time ,don't come to a public forum and ask for help. That bit of material is NOT how articles are written. If it's not a reliable enough source to use in the article, then it's not reliable enough to include in the body of the article at all. Further, that's a self-serving link, disingenuous to 'cite'. Either find reliable coverage of it, or don't include it. It's a biased primary source. ThuranX (talk) 00:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what you're trying to say. Of course it's reliable enough to use in the article - that's what I did. It's essential that LeVay have the chance to respond to James's defamatory claims. Skoojal (talk) 00:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

ThuranX: My understanding of WP:SPS is that one's self-published materials are indeed citeable when the SPS cited on the subject's own bio page and when the claim addresses what the subject thinks. This appears (to me) to be exactly what Skoojal did. Am I misunderstanding something?

In the way of disclosure: I have had no shortage of incidents with user:Jokestress, I am not involved in the dispute on Simon Levay. Although Levay and I work in related fields, I have never met him.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 01:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Conversion therapy

It encourages people to create the pages. Those were prominent people at the time, they need pages with detailed info on their ideas.Zigzig20s (talk) 16:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Final warning for block

I hate to do this to you, but please stop editing Simon LeVay, in the manner that you have been doing, with less than reliable sources, or I will have to block you as violating edit warring and the living persons rules, and for vandalism. We must discuss the matter of how to source, and whether to include such controversy, on the talk page, before re-inserting it against consensus, as you have done. Bearian (talk) 17:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)