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User talk:Carcharoth

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This is a Misplaced Pages user talk page. For the fictional wolf of the same name, see Carcharoth.
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If you're here to respond to a comment I posted on your talk page, feel free to reply on your talk page so the question and answer are together. I tend to watch talk pages I've posted comments to for a few weeks after my initial post, but I don't keep my watchlist open all the time. If you want to get my attention sooner, feel free to leave the reply here instead. If you leave me a message, I'll respond here unless you ask me to reply somewhere else. I may also reply at your talk page if that is the trend in the conversation. Discussions that took place prior to 21 October 2006 are mostly split between talk pages. Archive

Archives

Middle earth wikiproject

I think that when the article index is done, it will replace those other pages, and hopefully will be a central depository for all our articles. Also, I look at the wikiproject pages themselves, and this project desperately needs to be revamped and redesigned, perhaps like the Final Fantasy Wikiproject. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 17:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

A revamping would help. More editing of the articles would also help! I'll try and help as much as I can. Carcharoth (talk) 15:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Post-wikibreak comment

Mostly for myself, but also for the benefit of any others reading this page: I was on wikibreak during the last half of July and the first week of August, a total of just over three weeks. I wasn't totally out of touch, and still lurked in a few places and followed some of what was happening and e-mailed some people now and again, but I did miss quite a bit as well. Like previous wikibreaks, it will take me a while to get back up to speed and to get editing again. The break also gave me a chance to reassess the approach I take to Misplaced Pages, so the next few weeks may see me spending more time adjusting the way I do things around here. Nothing too drastic, just trying to be *slightly* more organised! :-) Now, I have some Signposts to read and other areas to catch up on. Carcharoth (talk) 16:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Preliminary reorganisation

  1. Do lots more content editing, from wikignome work to extensive writings and rewritings of articles.
  2. Be more focused in non-article namespaces (ie. see things through to a conclusion rather than just commenting and contributing to drift and endless cycles of discussion). If something ends up unresolved, don't just move on - make a note somewhere and come back to it later. Start a page of unfinished business and long-term projects that need attention every now and again.
  3. Balance time between different WikiProjects (eg. Midle-earth and Academic Journals and History of Science) and Wikimedia projects (eg. Commons and Wikisource).
  4. Allocate more time to organising (both myself and various projects).
  5. Find the time to write essays on certain key topics.
  6. Identify areas I have wanted to spend more time on and become active in those areas.
  7. Keep ongoing notes to keep things organised.
  8. Sort my watchlist and keep it tidy by using RecentChanges on subpages created from the watchlist.
  9. Subscribe to various mailing lists (definitely wiki-en-l and maybe others).
  10. Don't try and do too much. Aim to get the balance right between various areas.

More points to be added later, eventually to be integrated into the ongoing self-reorganisation. Try not to write lists of more than about 10 points. When a list gets that long, switch to doing work on one of the points on the list. Always try and leave a particular area tidy so that it is easy to come back to it later and do more work in that area (or for others to carry on the work). Carcharoth (talk) 16:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

  • I have one for you to look at, with regards to #1. I created John Koethe just a few days ago. I'd love to hear if you have any suggestions for improvements or whatnot. D.Jameson 17:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
  • One other that could use some of the same type of work is this one, which I'm trying to work with the FACC to get up to featured status. They've not been real active on it, so any help you can offer there would be great as well. Great to have you back, Carch! D.Jameson 17:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Carcharoth, it's good to see you back! Seemingly energized and with new resolve. Don't forget to set aside time for Tranche Beta - though that's still a few months away. :) Franamax (talk) 20:43, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. :-) Energized and with new resolve right enough. Let's see how long it lasts though. I fear the 10 points I wrote above could keep me going for a while... Carcharoth (talk) 22:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
You do have a problem (which I would not consider being a problem, but this is a wiki after all) with writing very apt multi-point summary and analysis of complex issues c/w laying out directions to move forward. These are typically rejoined with one or two editors seizing on a single point and running with the ball. As a consequence, your useful summaries get lost in the noise, and no comprehensive solution develops. I have no idea how to correct that, I personally prefer the "sum up, address each point systematically" style - but unless you're a business manager with full control over your department, it doesn't often work since people prefer to do anything but address details. That is what I see as the real-world impediment to your admirable style. As I say, I've often seen you IMO do the right thing and have it come to naught, no idea on how to correct that. :) Franamax (talk) 23:34, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Stable version on de-wiki

Just added an interwiki link to de:Hoher Kasten (back to the en-wiki article, which is a lot smaller, but still). The interesting thing is that this is a chance to see stable versions in action. I'm guessing I just wait for someone else to roll by and verify my change, and it will go live. Wonder how long that will take? Carcharoth (talk) 22:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Seems to have happened already. Or maybe not. Can anyone understand German and explain how it works? Carcharoth (talk) 22:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Your edit has been 'sighted' by a user named Herzi Pinki. That being said... a couple of weeks back they switched to showing the most recent edit to all users by default. So the 'sighting' doesn't really impact display at all. Even if/when they switch back to showing the most recently sighted edit by default that only applies to unlogged in users... while logged in you would still see the current edit regardless of whether it was flagged. Finally, even IP users would see edits they MADE immediately after saving, but if they reloaded the page it would then 'disappear' until someone flagged it. --CBD 21:29, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Ah, right. Thanks! Carcharoth (talk) 21:42, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian PD?

Image:Stalin jeschow molotow.jpg Someone suggested you might have insight into this dilemma. I've posted queries to noticeboards on both English Misplaced Pages and Commons to ask how we're handling works that may have exited the public domain under the new Russian copyright law. Do you know whether there's an effort to come into compliance, or where any centralized discussion took place about how to deal with the change? In all likelihood, thousands of images fall into the same gray area. Best wishes, Durova 19:57, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, not a clue. Wish I could be of more help. Carcharoth (talk) 19:58, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Portal drive?

Hm, another post of yours popped up on my watchlist. In case Portal:Arctic interests you...

All featured pictures. Also, Ziegler Polar Expedition was a DYK. Durova 20:24, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It does look like Portal:Arctic could work quite well! I'm still slightly stunned that nothing similar exists yet. I think people interested in this are more important than content, so trying to find at least one other person who sounds interested enough for me to <ahem> shove it all at them... Carcharoth (talk) 22:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, I happen to have a good working relationship with Misplaced Pages's most prolific contributor of featured portals. I can't make promises on his behalf, of course, and we're collaborating on a couple of other drives. But if there are enough solid B-class articles to support the undertaking, he might be persuadable. Generally this means a minimum of 10 biographies, 10 non-biography articles, and some other things. Do you think the subject has that strength? Durova 06:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Saw your note at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Canadian Territories. did you get Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America? I'm not sure if I've seen any others on the various native people in the Arctic. Slightly releated may be Misplaced Pages:WikiProject International law who might be able to help with some of the various claims in the Artic Ocean and Northwest Passsage issues. Looking at Durova's comments above, finding 10 non-bio B class should not be a problem. There are plenty of bio articles, see Category:Canadian Inuit people for example, but I'm not sure if there are enough B class bios. Though if you include Arctic explorers, Category:Explorers of the Arctic, then that should not be a problem either. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 08:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Forgot to mention that I would be willing to help. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 17:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Forgot to mention that I would be willing to help. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 17:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Is there an echo in here? :-) Something else has come up, but I should get back to this soon (hopefully tonight). I'm still rummaging around to see what material there is. What would be best to start first, a wikiproject to tag articles, or a portal to feature the best of the "Arctic" content? Carcharoth (talk) 21:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about the double post. I've been having problems with rain showers cutting the Internet off during the day. I would suggest that the project and tagging come first. The portal could wait. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 22:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Artic

I can probably help you with starting the wikiproject or portal for the artic project. See my work on the Queens of the Stone Age taskforce, wikiproject Russia, wikiproject Pink Floyd and wikiproject rock. Just contact me and i'll start work. --Be Black Hole Sun (talk) 10:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll try and leave you a note on your talk page, but maybe you will see this? As I said above, I'm considering what exactly is needed to start this going. I can't remember what is needed to set a wikiproject or portal going. Last time I looked, there were approval processes. Has that changed or not? See also my answer to CambridgeBayWeather above. Carcharoth (talk) 21:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Follow this link

Click and read to the bottom. This will show why I am concerned about Abd. Misplaced Pages:Competence is required. In spite of good intentions, if Abd's behavior drives off good contributors, and Abd does minimal article editing, then we may have to act. We cannot know whether somebody is a troll or if they simply lack social skills. Its the effects that matter, not the motivations. Jehochman 17:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

My view is that Abd should not come under pressure simply because someone has said Abd is the reason they are leaving. That way you leave the door open for people to apply pressure by "leaving". I'm not saying that Fritzpoll is acting this way (and I have a great deal of respect for his work), but that if he doesn't want to engage in discussion or finds it too stressful, then that is his choice. But he shouldn't use that as a parting shot. Some of my most stressful moments have been when I've been criticising others (not very strongly, or so I thought) and then they suddenly "leave". I'm like "what? what did I do? come back!". I still think this can be resolved by Abd moderating his style, and people trying to understand *him* a little better (if you have time, I'd point you to some of the mailing list posts that Abd has made), as well as people getting the right balance between "this is a volunteer project and if I don't like what's happening I can leave" and "I'm going to stick around and stand up for how I think things should be around here". It is one of the more difficult balances to strike. What Fritzpoll has effectively said is "I'm not coming back until I can be sure I won't face diatribes from people like Abd" (those are my words, not his - what he said was "until I'm sure that I can edit without feeling the dread, without waiting for you to tell me"). Fritzpoll may not realise it (please point him this way if you get the chance), but that is in its own way a threat. Do you remember what happened with User:Cryptic? He seemingly just walked away (though no-one really knows what happened there). That is a loose end that never got resolved - people walking away and leaving things unresolved can be very damaging. See User:NoSeptember/Leaving for more on this. Essentially, what I'm saying is that Abd should moderate his behaviour, but don't *react* against him for Fritzpoll leaving. That is being reactive, rather than calm. Carcharoth (talk) 17:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Maybe you could have a word with Fritzpoll to make him understand that. Yes, administrators should not be so quick to walk out in the face of criticism. It is easy enough to just ignore Abd if one does not like his style. However, there is a point that valued contributors should not be badgered until they leave. That is a persistent problem with our community, that civility in language is enforced, but not in actions. Additionally, Fritzpoll invited Abd to use dispute resolution, but Abd continued to make complaints in ways and places that would stir up drama rather than move the problem towards resolution. This behavior does look quite a lot like trolling. Jehochman 17:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
If Abd is a troll, I'll eat my hat. :-) (no, I don't have a hat, but you know what I mean.) My post to AN may not have helped, but I think the key here is to get Abd to move on, and to get Fritzpoll back. One thing Abd (and everyone really) should remember is that even if what you write is not intended to be threatening, it might come across that way. Hell, what you wrote to Abd came across as threatening. Abd, maybe you could post here (and not at AN) about what you think the problem is, and I'll have a look at it if you like? Carcharoth (talk) 17:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Abd doesn't bother me. I just skim their posts and shrug. Yes, we need to separate those two because continued interaction is harming the encyclopedia. Abd could be recommended an article writing project. Jehochman 17:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I've posted to his talk page. Will now post to Fritzpoll's (and hope he reads it). I hope everyone else is calm now. Maybe something should be posted at the AN thread? Carcharoth (talk) 17:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I wikitrailed my way here. I think the only thing that at this point should be posted at AN would be an archive box around the thread. Keeper ǀ 76 18:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Are you sure Abd isn't a troll? That diff has me worried. Jehochman 18:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Should have said I was leaving one computer. Now I guess I have an even longer AN thread to read. I'll go and have a look. Carcharoth (talk) 21:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Just so you know

Fritz basically closed the topic ban thread as "consensus reached" when there were something like 20 editors supporting, and maybe 1 or 2 opposing. It wasn't controversial in the least. D.Jameson 22:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the point that Abd was making (badly and overly verbosely) was that what was needed was a re-examination or re-opening of the discussion. An independent review of it. But I'm getting a bit confused about it myself. It doesn't help that I keep confusing it with the Carol Spears business. I was around for that, but missed most of the WW threads. Carcharoth (talk) 22:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Fritz made the point to him that he couldn't simply overturn the community's topic ban. He pointed Abd to appropriate ways to contest it. Abd ignored him, continued to badger him, and made veiled threats about getting him deadminned, hauled before Arbcom, and a dozen different things. D.Jameson 22:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Yeah, it was clumsy. Sorry, Abd, if you are reading this, but it was. There are other ways of making the points that you (Abd) make. In this case, the ball was firmly in WW and Abd's court. He or they should have gone to AN and asked where the right place is to review a community topic ban. This is why I prefer such bans to be time-limited, rather than indefinite, and with structures for appeals. Otherwise the appeals start the very next day (and justified appeals get rejected as forum-shopping), or those under the restrictions never bother to appeal and the community collectively forgets about it. Worse, and it has happened, after a year or so, the community forgets about the topic ban, and then a new community (the one a year later) has to deal with someone dragging up this year-old topic ban when the user in question may well be a much better editor. Instead of the topic ban being quietly over-turned, much drama ensues. Sorry if that was a bit obscure. I can explain the case I have in mind if anyone is interested. Carcharoth (talk) 23:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Wilhelmina Will

Hi Carcharoth. I've read your comments over at WP:AN, and, although I should point out that I didn't just do a quick tally to determine consensus (as I told Abd several times), I am willing to accept that alternative interpretations exist; it was, in fact, with this in mind that I started the thread on AN to begin with.

With Abd's blocking, WW no longer has her advocate, and does not, I believe, want to engage the community in determining her DYK status. There are, as I have repeatedly accepted, legitimate concerns about WW's topic ban. As such, and given that you are the nearest admin to this whole problem, I'd like to make you the same offer I made to Abd: could you either be, or could you find a neutral administrator to reassess the value of the close. If you/they disagree with the stance I've taken, I will, as I promised, retract my close and defer to the appropriate processes. How does that sound? Fritzpoll (talk) 23:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I was away when this all blew up. You might want to find someone else willing to gather the diffs and represent the case for review. I think User:Gatoclass expressed some concerns. He might be a better advocate to approach. Carcharoth (talk) 23:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
If you were away, you might be the better one, since you weren't involved. All you have to do is review the two AN/I threads (the one where the copyvios are discussed and the one where the community commented on the need for a topic ban) and determine if the close was valid. TO be honest, WW doesn't need advocacy - she doesn't care. This is about getting the ban right, and making sure the community can be confident in the decision. Fritzpoll (talk) 23:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
If it can wait until tomorrow, I'll look then. Could you provide diffs to the two threads? Carcharoth (talk) 23:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't see there being any urgency, since WW is happily creating articles anyway. There are a handful of AN/I convos, but the only two ones relevant to WW are the original copyvio thread and the gathering of editor commentary some time afterwards. I'll discuss your comments with you once you have them - I would appreciate it if you could chat with me first about it before announcing it elsewhere. Cheers Fritzpoll (talk) 23:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, I'll look tomorrow. Carcharoth (talk) 23:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Now that's how painless it was supposed to be :) Fritzpoll (talk) 23:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Will look this evening. Sorry for the delay. Carcharoth (talk) 11:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Have read the two threads and also User talk:Wilhelmina Will/Archive 3. There are some other threads I need to read as well. Deep down, it seems to be a complex mix of motivations to create content (DYK awards) and concerns about quality of content (copyvios and accuracy), made complicated by interactions between editors. More checking of new articles and DYK submissions is, as always, urgently needed. Plus a better way to both raise such issues and to follow them up. Carcharoth (talk) 12:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I've seen no evidence that WW submits copyvios, I think the main problem is that she's been editing articles whose content she doesn't really understand in order to win DYK awards. So it seems to me the most obvious step would be simply to ban her from submitting DYKs on technical subjects. As long as she sticks to everyday topics, I can't see why she couldn't keep submitting to DYK at this stage. Everyone at DYK knows of the wikidrama she's been involved in, so I'm sure they will be double checking her work to ensure it conforms appropriately with policies. Gatoclass (talk) 13:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Copyvio is probably the wrong word. It is more copying stuff when not understanding a topic. Sometimes that comes from the best of motivations - not wanting to change stuff due to not understanding the terms being used - which ironically is usually when trying to retain accuracy. Quoting or letting others paraphrase is best in those cases. I agree that a ban on technical articles is one possible solution, but even better would be just to have DYK regulars check all contributions during a probationary period, or some kind of mentorship. That needs a willingness on WW's part to accept criticism and improve - it can be hard for anyone to do that gracefully, especially if they feel they are being singled out. Anyway, I need to take a closer look at the actual articles before saying any more, but that will be later. I now see the this one was something that was brought through something like the AfC process, and was the website people themselves submitting their own content, or something. Have a look at the apology at the bottom. Carcharoth (talk) 13:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree that proposing a period of DYK mentorship would be the ideal, but WW has so far refused mentorship or being involved in groups. That's where I got stuck in trying to work out how to extract from the problem - unless WW engages in the community process, the avenues of escape are very limited. Fritzpoll (talk) 14:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I think I'm stuck as well. The sticking point, as you observe, is WW engaging with people. I think some people, on her talk page, were having some success. Possibly things should just be left for you, and those others (such as DYK regulars), to deal with as best you can. That might deal with things better than another AN/ANI discussion. One important point to make is that if the same problems recur (or continue) in future (and some have suggested this is already happening), then WW's failure to engage with the issues previously will be a factor. It's absolutely her choice whether to collaborate or not, but in general, those that don't work with others around here when they need to (eg. when sources or writings are challenged), don't end up "making it" as WW put it (or, more to the point, their contributions don't survive - the best way to ensure your contributions survive is to discuss them with other people and see if they are accceptable). Might not seem fair, but that is just how things work around here, partly due to the system and partly due to the ethos and tradition. Carcharoth (talk) 23:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
And that was my stalemate, leading to my determination that consensus and the evidence suggested a DYK topic ban until WW engaged with the community to resolve the issues was appropriate. We could just keep the topic ban in place until the community discussion comes up with some alternative, but I don't think a straight lifting of the ban would be helpful, and we'd always need WW to acknowledge any conditions that applied to her. Do you have any thoughts on this? Fritzpoll (talk) 08:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
I think "copyvio" is a more than the wrong word. There was the one incident from January, but that is all that anyone has found. The other incidents (calling Bechtic "revolting" and reverting an edit to keep the article above the 1500 character DYK minimum) also seem to be one-offs. The ongoing issue isn't copying, but that in trying to avoid copyvios she changes the phrasing of the journals she uses. And since she apparently doesn't always fully understand those journals, she sometimes botches the meaning when she rephrases things. And while that is something to take seriously, it is not nearly as prevalent as was suggested during the initial ANI discussion. Unfortunately, the problem now (as is discussed above) seems to be that WW can be difficult to engage, and the events over the past week haven't seemed to help that. Abd was the one person who seemed capable of engaging her, and that seemed to be at least partially offline, so hopefully he is still able and willing to engage her during his block. Rlendog (talk) 01:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I am curious if you are still doing anything in terms of reviewing the WW situation or have you completed your independent review of the situation and the closing? --GoRight (talk) 04:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. I didn't make it clear enough. My main response was here. I think discussion is still continuing, but at some point someone will have to step in and do a summary and come to a conclusion that everyone will hopefully accept. I'm beginning to see the point of what Abd said about someone needing to take responsibility for closing and logging the conclusions of any such discussion, especially if anyone is claiming support for a topic ban (or support for the absence of a topic ban). My basic conclusion is that until someone feels strongly enough that consensus has been reached so that they can add something to Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions, and notify the editor in question, then there is no topic ban in place. Carcharoth (talk) 04:55, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Having just been the recipient of such a restriction, I would agree that if there is not already there certainly should be a formal recognition that until someone takes responsibility for closing the discussion and actually having something entered into Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions that no conclusion has formally been reached. This provides a nice clean line to answer the question of whether such a ban has actually been imposed. --GoRight (talk) 17:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I will raise this at Misplaced Pages talk:Editing restrictions. Carcharoth (talk) 18:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree with that summary, but I might add that it is not entirely true that "there is no ban in place". I don't propose to accept any articles at DYK that she writes on technical subjects or with offline references, and I will be making that recommendation any time she or someone else nominates any such article of hers. So there is in fact a de facto restriction on what she will be allowed to submit for the time being. I don't really see the point in trying to pursue further restrictions at this stage, given the apparent difficulty in getting any sort of consensus over this at AN/I. Gatoclass (talk) 07:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Gatoclass, are you a regular participant within the DYK community? Rather than focusing on the actions of this one user who appears to have been unlucky enough to cross paths with User:Blechnic, would it make sense as part of the DYK process to require an independent review of any such articles not simply ones from WW? Or is there already such a review process in place? I apologize for not being up to speed on the formalities of the DYK process. --GoRight (talk) 17:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Gatoclass is indeed a regular in the DYK process. I suggest you raise this further at User talk:Gatoclass or (better) at Misplaced Pages talk:Did you know (or wherever they hold their general discussions). Carcharoth (talk) 18:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, will do. Thanks. --GoRight (talk) 18:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

In the interests of bringing some sort of closure to the current WP:AN thread on this issue, and in consideration of the fact that (unfortunately for the two of you) both you and User:Fritzpoll are already viewed as being the primary administrative reviewers on this issue, might I propose the following course of action:

  1. You consult with User:Fritzpoll and come to some sort of a joint decision as to whether there is, or is not, an existing DYK topic in place for WW based on your joint assessment of the entire discussion, any actual evidence which has been provided in terms of diffs, and any subsequent analysis thereof.
  2. If you decide that such a ban is warranted and appropriate in light of that assessment, that you provide a clear description of exactly what the ban covers (i.e. self-nomination and/or nomination by others) along with a statement of the terms and conditions under which the ban might be lifted.
  3. If you are uncomfortable making any binding decision on your own (jointly) that you then open a new straw poll to assess community consensus on whether a ban is appropriate, or not, based on the discussion and analysis which has occurred subsequent to the original vote.
  4. Finally, based on the results of this latest vote that one of the two of you declare a final result and, if a ban is still supported, that you record it at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions and declare the matter settled.

Thoughts? --GoRight (talk) 18:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. Could you drop Fritzpoll a note? Carcharoth (talk) 18:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Will do. --GoRight (talk) 18:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm now under a self-imposed general ban from editing outside my user space, but I specifically exempted matters affecting Wilhelmina Will, and some others. I came to the same conclusions as Carcharoth, early on, but gave Fritzpoll an opportunity to take responsibility for the close, or, if he didn't and no administrator did, the ban would not have existed, kind of like an AfD with no determination of a consensus that is also based on evidence and cogency of argument, something that !votes don't do, in themselves, no matter what the numbers are. Since Fritzpoll elected the outcome that he was closing, he was then the go-to person for minimally disruptive challenge to the conclusion, or other clarification (such as term, specific restrictions, etc, none of which was clear from the original discussion). This is really how Misplaced Pages decision process works, and that this wasn't understood by many was quite frustrating. Fritzpoll continued to take the position that, no, it wasn't his decision, the community decided, and hence the community had to be consulted before some different decision could be made. This would be like an admin who closes an AfD as delete, then comes across evidence that showed the conclusion was flawed, and, had he had this evidence in hand at the time of the close, and if he had understood it, he'd have closed differently, but who claims that it wasn't his decision, he'd only looked at the !votes (or the !votes plus his prior impressions which were not part of the discussion). I'll point out that we could replace the vote part with a bot or a clerk. A judge with discretion, who decides not on !votes but on arguments and evidence, may reverse an earlier decision, based on the merits as newly understood, within the range of what the judge could have earlier decided. It is highly efficient, avoiding, quite likely, a useless Deletion Review, and if anyone disagrees, there is Deletion Review or, later, a new AfD. Setting aside the sock puppetry distraction that Fredrick day (I conclude) crafted to disrupt the process, I was blocked for arguing for this (the early warnings, consider to be warnings regarding my offense, came prior to the sock puppet problem). But my block is irrelevant here. And any possible errors made by Fritzpoll are, likewise. I agree completely with Carcharoth's suggestions, above. It's pretty much what I had in mind, but the process was interrupted by the flap and my block. Fritzpoll and I would have come to this place, and quickly, quite without AN, which simply delayed it a bit. Thanks, Carcharoth, and thanks, Fritzpoll. --Abd (talk) 19:11, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

And thanks, GoRight. You are a relatively new editor, and probably shouldn't have started compiling evidence at AN, it just makes the natives restless, they don't want extensive content there, but, hey, for a new editor, it's been quite good, overall, I appreciate deeply the assistance and your advice during my block. I've made the first steps toward a review process for the block that will be minimally disruptive, it's entirely in my user space, so if something things that disruptive, well, they have recourse, but I rather doubt that such an opinion would be sustained! And, ultimately, I'll get the answers I seek, one way or another; most likely, I predict, it won't take any edits outside my user space, except for occasional comment like this. But you never can tell... --Abd (talk) 19:19, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I just want to draw attention to this diff. WW does seem to be willing to reach out to others on technical articles when she is unsure of something. She does seem willing and able to learn and improve, even if she is somewhat reluctant to engage the broader community in discussions about the accusations surrounding her. This would seem consistent with the issues surrounding copyvios, which apparently were an issue several months ago but which she apparently learned to stop doing after it was brought to her attention, even if she didn't make a grand announcement about it. Rlendog (talk)

I agree. If WW were to say something, I think lots of people would support WW now. Refusing to say anything is WW's choice, but maybe someone could explain that going against a community consensus like that (even if it is mistaken) is difficult if WW stays quiet on the matter. The ball really is in WW's court. Carcharoth (talk) 01:46, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

U haz

e-mail. Maxim (☎) 01:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I've replied. Carcharoth (talk) 11:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Replied again. Maxim (☎) 13:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I had got that one, just hadn't replied yet, though I have now. Carcharoth (talk) 14:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Polar exploration: possible featured topic

SandyGeorgia has pointed out to me your note on the Featured topic talkpage, about the possibility of a featured topic on the history of polar exploration. During the past six months I have brought ten polar articles to FA status - basically, all those you list except for Andrée's balloon and Harry McNish - and I am currently working on Southern Cross Expedition.

I believe that "History of polar exploration" is far, far too broad for a single featured topic, and could embrace hundreds of articles. What I am hoping to do, eventually, is create a featured topic entitled (possibly) "British Antarctic Exploration in the Heroic Age". This will comprise seven expedition articles (Southern Cross, Discovery, Scottish National Antarctic Expedition, Nimrod, Terra Nova, Imperial Trans-Antarctic, and Ross Sea party) and five polar commander articles (Borchgrevink, Bruce, Scott, Shackleton, Mackintosh). There will also be a summarising article embracing the entire topic. The Southern Cross article is in progress, the Carsten Borchgrevink article needs a lot of attention, and the summarising article needs to be created. These are my current projects and will probably take me to end-September.

There are plenty of other potential featured topics within the polar history umbrella. One I would dearly like to work on, when time permits, is "Ships of the polar explorers". I hope also soon to begin a series of North Pole articles - I am visiting the Arctic myself in mid-September. If you have any particular ideas you would like to discuss, in relation to current or feature topics, please feel free to contact me on my talkpage. Regards, Brianboulton (talk) 18:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I knew there had to be someone churning out all that great featured content! :-) I'll drop a copy of this on your talk page. For now, would you have any time to look at List of Arctic expeditions? Carcharoth (talk) 23:53, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for your note. I will look at, and add to, your List of Arctic expeditions, but I doubt that this will ever be fully complete, unless you set certain boundaries to it. For example, there were at least fifteen expeditions which set out in search of Franklin - are you going to include all these?

And, yes, I'm well-informed on Arctic history, though I chose first to churn out my Antarctic articles. I have various future plans for the Arctic, which include developing the Jackson-Harmsworth Expedition article, which I've created as a brief summary, raising the standard of the existing Fridtjof Nansen article, and creating articles for Nansen's Greenland and Fram expeditions. I have been collecting source material for all of these, and next month I'm going to the Arctic to take some photos. I started the stub Farthest North, with a view to developing it along the lines of Farthest South, which I am still polishing.

As to who actually got to the North Pole first, who knows? Cook was discounted early (though I have a book that "proves" he actually made it). Peary was generally accepted until recent times, and still is in some quarters. Other contenders are Robert Byrd (aeroplane, 1926), Nobile, Ellsworth and Amundsen (airship, 1926), Alexander Kuznetsov (aeroplane landed, 1948) and Wally Herbert (on foot, 1969). There's lots of scope for some interesting articles here.

Finally, good luck in whatever you decide to do, and I am happy to co-operate wherever possible. Brianboulton (talk) 16:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah well, I guess I knew that List of Arctic expeditions wouldn't be possible to turn into a comprehensive list. What I think would be useful is a timeline summary of the important points in the history of Arctic exploration. Similar to polar exploration, but as a timeline rather than an article. That would point up redlinks where articles are needed, and would arrange existing articles in chronological order, which is always helpful. If you know of any expeditions that are redlinks and which would make substantial articles, please add them. Thanks. I'm also slowly proceeding with plans for a portal and tagging articles for a wikiproject (see User:Carcharoth/Arctic articles), but improving the existing content should always come first, so I'll let you get on with doing that and help out where I can. Carcharoth (talk) 16:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Arctic

This sounds like a good idea, to get more going for this neck of the woods as a Wikiproject/portal. Have you had any feedback. I can probably help putter with some odds and ends over the next few days or so...and I enjoy setting up portals and whatnots. Kind Regards SriMesh | talk 05:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

If you are willing to do some of the legwork with compiling lists of relevant WP:GA and WP:FA articles, as well as at least 10 WP:FPs, and other tasks along the way, I can help with the portal-drive. This is a bit trickier without the handy dandy statistics that would have already been compiled had there been a preexisting active WikiProject though. Cirt (talk) 16:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I was thinking that tagging the articles would end up with those stats, but creating a (possibly incomplete) listing to get things going is not a bad idea. The list I did earlier (at "Featured topics") was nearly all Antarctic exploration history. I've recently been doing category work, and getting confused by the existing polar/arctic/antarctic categories, and the Soviet/Russia ones. One thing that does need discussion is when (sometimes splitting hairs isn't that useful) and where to draw the line between Arctic stuff and other stuff (definitions include: latitude, isotherm, climate), and how far to deal with subarctic stuff. One things I did get started was asking for a bot to examine articles and list those with latitude co-ordinates that fit the "latitude" definition of Arctic. Apparently that is being done at the moment. Carcharoth (talk) 18:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

This might be a helpful To do list to get started: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Arctic. Cheers, Cirt (talk) 17:16, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I found 11 featured pictures, including the 3 Durova listed above, and put them at User:Carcharoth/Arctic articles. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 17:34, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Cool. Thanks. I'll try and copy these discussions over there, or at least bring them over there. I had been considering asking "permission" at that requests page for starting wikiprojects, but I guess starting a talk page will be OK, and technically permission is not absolutely required, just encouraged or something. See Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Council/Proposals. I'll also try and update the notices I left and reply to those who have left notes. Carcharoth (talk) 18:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Oh oops, I went ahead and created the project page, also asked for help from John Carter (talk · contribs). But if "permission" is not actually required from Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Council/Proposals then no worries. Cirt (talk) 21:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Categories: Aboriginal peoples in the Arctic & Regions of the Arctic

I noticed you were populating the two categories and started looking for more to add. I added a couple but then started wondering about the best way to do it. What I mean is, if Category:Nunavut is in Regions of the Arctic then should the Nunavut article be there as well? For Aboriginal peoples in the Arctic should the Category:Inuit be there and the article Inuit? Cheers. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 16:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The category structure is confusing at the moment, and until it settles down my changes might not look that logical! As I said above, currently trying to get the Soviet/Russian/Soviet and Russian and Polar/Arctic/Antarctic stuff sorted. As for categorising categories as well as categorising the articles (instead of one or the other), that is something that confuses I lot of people. I don't always get it "right", but I tend to err on the side of only inlcuding the category if it makes sense. I much prefer to either include both, or just the article. It depends on what I think people arriving at the category will be looking for. Feel free to juggle things around or ask me to stop something if it looks like I'm heading in the wrong direction. Carcharoth (talk) 18:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm leaning towards having both included but didn't want to start adding a bunch with seeing what your intentions were. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 18:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

categories

re: You removed Chelyuskin steamship from Category:Polar exploration by Russia and the Soviet Union. While formally it looks correct, it is not. A signif part of the text is not about ship per se, but about its work in polar exploration, which is not described elsewhere in wikipedia. Therefore the deleted category is IMO in fact useful for navigation. When updating categories, I would suggest to review the whole article content, rather than its major topic. I understang that this is a grey area, and you will not include the article spoon into the category "Restaurants" just because the "spoon" article says that spoons are widely used in european stype restaurants :-). I am merely suggesting to be less formal, although I suspect usage of various automated tools makes you think less and click more. Anyway, keep yourself busy. wikipedia needs you :-). `'Míkka>t 21:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. The same applies to much of my reorganisation of Category:Exploration of the Arctic. I'm aware of this and for now I think people can get from the the "Exploration in the Arctic" category to the "Arctic exploration vessels" category (Category:Arctic exploration vessels - I think I added that to the Chelyuskin article) without going too far wrong. I'm also creating redirects to help navigation, such as this one (Lady Franklin Bay Expedition). In my view it is a trade-off between having categories that make sense and category tags that cover what an article contains. I know it can be contentious, but have a look at Category:Arctic and see if you can suggest better ways to organise things from (a) the point of view of someone browsing the categories; and (b) the point of view of someone reading an article and considering the category tags as a starting point for more browsing. About the automated tools, there is an option in HotCat to press Ctl and click OK, and then modify the edit summary and the edit. I will try and do that more. I would also like to turn of the "minor edit" marking, which is annoying. But category work is so much easier with automated tools! :-) Carcharoth (talk) 22:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The Lord of the Rings: FA review

The Lord of the Rings has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. --Davémon (talk) 09:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

GoRight's suggestion

Sorry, I was away for a wedding over the weekend (not mine) and couldn't respond adequately to this. I'm happy to follow his suggestions, and so want to know what your interpretation of this matter is, so that we can start a discussion. Cheers, Fritzpoll (talk) 20:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd be tempted to skip straight to point 3, unless you think we can up with something at point 2. What do you think? Has enough new evidence and discussion come to light that a new straw poll is needed? You might also want to look at Misplaced Pages talk:Editing restrictions to see if I represented things right there, or not. Did I get that right? Carcharoth (talk) 01:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I'd be concerned that a new straw poll would be overdoing it a little bit without a specific proposal - the community discussed it at AN/I to start with, I asked AN to confirm the original discussion, and that discussion is still ongoing. My personal opinion would be that we should close the matter together, taking into account the new discussions that have taken place at AN. If we did, I suspect that the outcome would be that WW is no longer under a DYK topic ban, given that any concerns editors had about her work appear to have dissipated, and that her most recent articles since coming back from her holiday have proven to be good, and that she is willing to work with other editors to check technical details. We could ask for more stringent checks at DYK of her nominations, but given the lack of recent evidence (and the disputed quality of older evidence) as regards the issues initially raised, this would seem punitive rather than preventative, so I would avoid it. I too would feel a little odd jointly foisting this on the community, but if you are amenable, I'll propose this over at the current discussion for a straw poll. I might do this anyway, given that it will widely be reviewed as a change of heart on my part and it would be best for WW if this can be resolved quickly Fritzpoll (talk) 07:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Sounds OK to me. I'll try and drop by the discussion later, or you can point people to this discussion. Hopefully people will still, as always, have high standards for new articles. It's a difficult thing to judge. Let's hope it turns out OK. Carcharoth (talk) 07:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I've posted it as a subsection of the existing discussion - check it and make sure it sounds ok. Your comment (hopefully support) would be very useful at this point. Fritzpoll (talk) 07:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
If there are no objections by the end of the day (1600UTC), I'll overturn the ban. That sound ok? Fritzpoll (talk) 13:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I'd wait longer, but not so long that it gets archived. I find it also helps to state at the start when a discussion may be closed, but hardly anyone (including me) remembers to do that. Carcharoth (talk) 13:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Ban overturned. Thanks for the neutral set of eyes - pity it wasn't asked for earlier. Fritzpoll (talk) 08:05, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Troll or newbie?

What's your opinion on this remark, and the user's contribution history? Jehochman 20:52, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

He or she seems angry about something. Looks like a very political account, which given the former user name is not surprising. Possibly removing the AN thread he or she started might not have been the best idea. I agree with the article deletion as regards a single-event article about a person. But really, I'm not the best person to ask about US politics. There are concerns about the attitude, and I could see problems in the future, but I can't see anything right now that couldn't be a combination of picking up the wrong attitude through lurking and inexperience. If they learn to talk civilly and less confrontationally, things might go OK. Carcharoth (talk) 01:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, on a gut feeling I did not block them, and they have been talking with me civilly enough. Hopefully they will get up to speed. Perhaps it's somebody from another wiki. They seem familiar with at least some aspects of what we do. By the way, I appreciate your ability to read edit histories and correctly view situations through diffs. Not everybody is so sharp. Jehochman 02:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I tend to be pleased when people know how things work. It can save a lot of tedious explanation. Treat them like they know what they are talking about and tell them to ask questions if you go too fast for them. If they are genuinely new, it will show eventually. It was a short contribution history, thankfully. Carcharoth (talk) 02:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Re Community ban/indef block

Apologies for the late response; I'm not normally very active over the weekend. I issued the indefblock in response to copyvios reported on ANI. In the ensuing discussion the question of a community ban was raised, but there was no unanimous consent for this as one or two editors expressed a willingness to unblock under very specific conditions, so the thread closed with the block in place and the editor's talk page being monitored.

The same editor was brought up again on ANI around three weeks later later, having apparently been evading the block by editing from her IP and creating an alternative account. Her additional lack of productive response on her talk page led to new calls for a community ban (discussion here), which this time were unanimous. I was only peripherally involved, and don't know who closed the thread, but I assume that since my original indefblock was still in place, there was thought to be no need to take any action other than noting the ban on her pages. If I've understood the thrust of your comments, you seem to be implying that the closing admin should have reblocked to reflect the new consensus and link to the ban discussion, which makes sense to me ;)

I hope this helps. EyeSerene 08:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It did, thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 21:50, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Portal Arctic

Thanks for your note. Thanks for the heads up on the DYK. Also thanks for the searches made on the WP already! You truly have been busy. Kind Regards SriMesh | talk 14:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Have completed all the boxes now to some extent. Have to yet finish adding completely all the awesome images you have found. ound a few FA bios as well. Slow going, as I am tagging talk pages as I add the articles. Made 3 tentative intros. Perhaps the topics section is a bit full, probably would like to make a general Arctic topics template, which combines the best features of all topics from all templates or categories or lists. The categories and Wikiprojects sections are a bit empty so will probably add roating pictures there. Have some more tweaking to do as per some peer review suggestions which I have used on past portals, but the basics are up and running. Need another break.SriMesh | talk 18:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for all that. Nice example of being WP:BOLD! :-) It wasn't me that found the pictures, though. That was User:Durova, who may find some more soon. Have a nice break, anyway. Maybe someone else will carry on things or come along to help - I know some others were interested in this. Carcharoth (talk) 21:50, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Portal Bios

Hello there. I agree with you about the bio on Jake Gyllenhaal after that one, I added marginal articles and biography aricles to the nominations section.. Me thinks B class bios should be plopped into the nominations section as well unless they are high importance. I will peruse your link shortly to see if there are any B class articles which should be close to GA nomination...SriMesh | talk 22:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem with the majority of B-class articles is that their introductions are 1 to 2 lines long, and the portal uses the introduction only on the portal, and should be about 10 lines long to help balance out the box sections, and to give an entire overview of the article as a whole, and not just a dictionary definition. Maybe some of these articles can be fleshed out in the introduction to introduce each section over the next while, because they are of top to high importance to the arctic in general.SriMesh | talk 23:20, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Me again, put the excellent arctic-related biograhical articles up for nomination to get some votes, and added one B class article, and removed Jake. See NominationsSriMesh | talk 23:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

BHG

Did you notice her Wikibreak? You might not get an email till September. PamD (talk) 22:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. I did notice that, but wasn't sure what to do. Thanks. I'll wait a few more days. Carcharoth (talk) 22:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
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