Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 132.234.251.211 (talk) at 03:50, 20 September 2005 (→Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Okay, so I was reading an argument that within the first year homicides went up 3.2%,(& homicides with firearms went up 300%), Australia-wide, assaults went up 8.6%; Australia-wide, armed robberies went up 44% (Victoria only). I'm aware that the robbery number was cherry-picked as the biggest increase, because the Australian number wasn't as distinctive/large.

It's been almost a decade, and I've not seen any re-caps (along with comparisions of the newer pistol laws - before and after)

I also haven't seen any data from before (ie: were the trends going up, staying stable, or going down previous to this legislation), I haven't seen any numbers per capita (are there simply more homicides because there are more people?), or data from economic strata (are more people becoming poor?)

I know that in the U.S. the crime trends were already headed down, and advocates tend to claim those decreases for gun control. What's the status here?

-- ~ender 2005-02-26 08:04:MST

I think you have it backwards. The biggest change to gun laws in the U.S. recently is that many states have allowed the right to carry a concealed weapon. This has been accompanied by a decrease in the crime rate, and it's gun-rights activists, not gun-control ones, that seem more likely to cite crime-rate figures lately. Funnyhat 05:53, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

"moral panic" stuff - not specific to Austraila

Removed:

The attitudes towards law-abiding firearm owners and the opponents of the 1996 gun laws by the politicians of Australia, the media, the anti-gun movement and the community in aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre and the rapid introduction of the 1996 gun laws were an example of moral panic on a large scale with many people using law-abiding firearm owners and those who opposed the 1996 gun laws (both gun owning and non-gun owning) as scapegoats for what happened at Port Arthur. Also, the rapid introduction of the 1996 gun laws highlights serious flaws in Australian democracy with the parliament rapidly passing these laws without proper, rational debate and scrutiny of these laws as well as threatening politicians who are members of political parties that back the bans but hold pro-gun sentiments and objected to the bans with removal from the party if they didn't support the political party's line and stance on the gun laws.

To claim this is specific to Australian democracy is just nonsense; politicians *always* respond to public outcries on a specific issue, and the response is often ill-considered legislation that advances other agendas that couldn't get passed in more normal times. Hence the PATRIOT Act in the United States, to pick one very well known example. Or witness the belting the left of the Democratic Party was given by the hawkish centrist wing on their opposition to the Iraq War in 2003, despite being proven completely right by history. --Robert Merkel 06:49, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Also removed: "The incident left a strong impression among those who opposed the 1996 gun laws that John Howard dislikes all forms of legal gun ownership among law-abiding Australian citizens as well as him using the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre for his own personal political gain (since he was elected Prime Minister of Australia in March 1996 which raises questions on his motivations) by using law-abiding firearm owners as scapegoats and potraying them as threats to the community by wearing the bullet-proof vest to the rally."

Howard was elected before the Port Arthur massacre. Aside from that, the section was very poorly constructed, and quite obviously constructed from a pro-gun perspective; nobody can pretend to know what John Howard considers a threat to the community. That is an inference that shouldn't be made here. Also, the personal political gain Howard got out of the aftermath is irrelevant to the gun control debate.

Olympics

The last sentence is not a sentence. Perhaps someone who can divine its intent can complete it. --Rkundalini 19:02, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

More pro-gun bias

This: "This has in fact become a hot issue in recent times as some people are becoming more sympathetic to private gun owners and the burdensome restrictions placed on them, forcing the political climate to focus more on the criminals using the weapons and less on the weapons themselves."

Is not 'fact', but someone's opinion regarding gun control (as much of this article seems to be). Using adjectives such as 'burdensome', and assuming to know that more Australians are sympathetic to pro-gun groups than opposed to said groups has no place in an encyclopaedic website.

Furthermore, categorical statements like "forcing the political climate to focus more on the criminals using the weapons and less on the weapons themselves." also have no place in an encyclopaedic website, as this is more conjecture and opinion on the political climate of gun control in Australia.

Anti-gun bias

While the edits of User:202.173.128.90 have removed a lot of out-of-place and POV stuff, I think the article has now gone the other way. For example, "the Australian community" did not push for those specific gun laws, a segment of the community did while another segment (not just the "pro-gun lobby") opposed it. If I remember correctly it was very controversial and, for example, is attributed with destroying National Party support and bolstering One Nation in Queensland. Which brings me to my second point, which is instead of being a tit-for-tat tightrope attempt at NPOV portrayal of the history of gun control, the article should actually provide proper background information on gun politics in general in Australia and the various players in that political game. Until someone can address this and in particular address the anti-gun POV now present in the article I think we need a POV warning, so I'm sticking one there now. --Rkundalini 12:59, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Attribute opinions please

Dear anonymous gun rights advocate:

Please read the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view policy. The view that the reaction to the Port Arthur massacre was a moral panic is an opinion, not a fact, one that is obviously held by some people but not all. Please attribute these views appropriately, preferably with evidence to back it up. --Robert Merkel 01:13, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Reply

What happened after the Port Arthur massacre was in fact an example of moral panic and scapegoating on a large scale. My advice to you is to read all the Australian newspapers that were printed from when the news about the Port Arthur massacre was reported to the gun debate that occured afterwards.

After reading the newspapaers, have a read of the Moral Panic page here on Misplaced Pages as well as look at the Misplaced Pages page on the Columbine High School massacre and you will see that the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre (as well as the aftermaths of other mass-shootings) was an exercise in moral panic and scapegoating on a large scale.

My advice to you is that just because you think it was a moral panic doesn't mean that opinion is universal, or even a majority one. Many prominent Australians consider the introduction of those gun laws as a rational response to events. I am Australian and my family *are* farmers and occasional hunters, so I *do* happen to remember quite a lot about that particular debate. I personally think that there's a fair element of truth to your moral panic hypothesis, but that is irrelevant. It shouldn't be hard to find somebody in an editorial in a shooter's magazine (or even in the mainstream papers) who called the reaction a moral panic. Quote them instead of asserting your opinion as fact. As you haven't done so, I'm going to have to revert you again.--Robert Merkel 03:22, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Robert Merkel,

There are many Australians out there who see that the actions of the politicians, the media, and the anti-gun movement in the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre was an act of moral panic, mass-hysteria, and scapegoating and many of these people are not gun owners. Also, the whole moral panic hypothesis is NOT irrelvent because what happened after Port Arthur and Monash University was an example of it and nearly a million law-abiding Australian citizens were treated like crap.

Besides, what I haved added on the "Gun Politics of Australia" page posting IS fact - it is the stuff that people like yourself tend to overlook or ignore because it dosen't doesn't fit you anti-gun views. There is need to show BOTH sides of the debate and not to have the page restricted to the biased, anti-gun version that you want.