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Edit this section for new requests

Request for extension on the editing restrictions

There are editing restrictions imposed upon myself and Martinphi at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist. The dispute has only gotten worse, probably indicating that arbcomm did a poor job of adjudicating, but no matter. I hereby request that the editing restrictions which are set to expire in about two weeks for this arbitration decision be extended. I am perfectly happy living under civility, AGF, and NPA editing restrictions if it means that Martinphi must also live under editing restriction regarding his (continued) disruption of fringe-theory-related articles.

ScienceApologist (talk) 03:00, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Request for a special restriction at Naked short selling

Executive summary: To prevent sophisticated sockpuppetry, I propose that we bar new accounts from editing the mainspace of articles under probation.

Me and User:Mackan79 have become concerned that it is impossible to enforce the article probation from the Mantanmoreland ArbCom. Although editors are instructed to edit only from their main or sole account, technical evidence cannot enforce this instruction against highly sophisticated sockpuppeteers. Mantanmoreland, having learned from at least four prior sock puppets, is an extremely sophisticated sockpuppeteer. His most recent User:Bassettcat account initially passed check user with flying colors. This account was only caught after making one—and only one—unproxied edit.

There are two new editors now at Naked short selling who share Mantanmoreland's POV. Mackan79 suggests that they're violating instruction C of the article probation (no advocacy) by their inflammatory rhetoric. I don't know whether either of them is Mantanmoreland, but I find it hard to believe that they are completely new accounts—as they claim. For example, Janeyryan claims that this is her first and only account "since the dawn of time," but I note that her first edit was a sophisticated wiki-markup contribution to Misplaced Pages Review, in passages purporting to deal with the Overstock.com article. Still, I don't know whether either of these accounts is certainly Mantanmoreland, and I don't see why we should spend more time worrying about it. Instead, I suggest we put controls on these articles to limit the incentives for Mantanmoreland (or Wordbomb, or anyone else) to sockpuppet in these subjects.

So, I present Mackan79's proposal.

Basically, new users (I would argue users who began editing after March 2008) should refrain from editing the mainspace of the reverting with other users in the topics under probation.

Mackan79 hoped that the editors would voluntarily agree to such restrictions, but Janeyryan rejects them, and casts aspersions on the motives of me and Mackan79. Janeyryan suggests that this proposal seeks to exclude POVs from the article. This is false. I don't know about Macken79, but I don't have a strong POV on the article. (Here I reverted to JohnnyB's version)

Our objective is solely to prevent sockpuppeteering by removing the incentives to create new sock accounts. In this way, Mantanmoreland or any other interested party can suggest changes from the talk page, but these suggestions will be reviewed by editors who were never involved in this POV war. I think this arrangement will improve the quality of the encyclopedia; it should not be applied to just these two users, but to any new accounts in this area.

This externally-driven battle must stop. In the words of Newyorkbrad, "please, not here; no more here; no more, no more, no more. We need to stop the bleeding; we need our encyclopedia back." Cool Hand Luke 02:53, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Holy smokes. While I appreciate and understand the reasoning behind this, this has a huge number of practical and philosophical problems. Aside from the "wiki way" issues, enforcing this would require a completely new technical tool or blocking any relatively young account if they attempt to edit a probation topic. Semi-Permanent full protection would probably be less drastic than this. More than a few accounts got their mop at less than six months, so March 2008 as a cut off is really a bit much

That all having been said, I trust that there are reasonable editors making these suggestions, which suggests a serious problem going on in the background that needs more attention.--Tznkai (talk) 03:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I also considered that new accounts could submit some form of identification, but that seems equally unwiki, and I don't believe we have the infrastructure.

Semi-protection has been applied almost continuously since the ArbCom. Full protection is another option that I'd considered in the past, but I think it's overkill for simply preventing new sockpuppets. This is less restrictive. Cool Hand Luke 03:13, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Having additional, un-public information here, I am convinced that at least one of the accounts here directly relates to Mantanmoreland in some way (meat or sock). While I deplore having to take steps such as the one requested above (or something similar), this is a long term disruption from a user who is exceedingly good at preventing technical identification of his accounts. If we simply restricted the two users in question from the page (perhaps allowing them to use the talk page), I am convinced that yet another one would take his place, and attempt to use up the reservoir of Assuming Good Faith that we must do, lest we devolve into a witch hunt, the type the user in question used to do so many times to opponents in turn. This is a financial feud. This is a personal feud. This is something that has the ability to greatly harm the encyclopedia, and I urge readers to take it gravely seriously. SirFozzie (talk) 03:22, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be wrong to ban new accounts, because it would give too much of a POV advantage to editors on the page whose accounts were set up before March 2008. My suggestion is that anyone wanting to edit articles that fall under that ArbCom ruling should be asked to discuss on Skype, by voice and on webcam, their interest in editing those articles, with an experienced admin who has no prior involvement in the case. Certain questions can be asked to ensure that the admin really is speaking to the person behind the account and not a friend who's standing in for them. It would have to be the same admin conducting all the "interviews," for obvious reasons. The editors would also have to be willing to give their real IP address, and to commit to using only that one, or one within the same range if it's not static; and by editing the articles would be agreeing to be regularly and randomly checkusered.

If this is applied to all accounts making edits to those pages, that would be much fairer than banning new accounts.

Alternatively, as I suggested about 18 months ago and I see Luke has considered too, the articles should be protected so that only admins can edit if good suggestions for edits are left on talk, but where the idea would be to add new material only if there were a pressing need to do so. As I see it, what's needed is for those pages to be left in peace for a long time, in the hope that people with strong views get bored. SlimVirgin 04:00, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Full protecting the articles as SlimVirgin has suggested above is a possible way to move forward on this. I do think that the proposers of this AE section have been working competently and fairly (fair disclosure: I have been a dilettante on this, when I see a bit in the news about naked short selling (such as international bans), but rather then possibly play whack a mole, or twenty questions, or put every user through an inquisition just to edit the article , the we just refuse to let it happen. I really don't like to lock this down "Long term" (ie, for the forseeable future), but rather then play the game every time a new user shows up (which is what I don't like about the current situation), or unfairly restrict a broad swath of users, it may be best to say "We're not interested in your battles." and full protect it until such point that people who want to use it as a battleground drift away. SirFozzie (talk) 04:06, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

If we do full protection, I suggest that me, SirFozzie, and any other editor who has ever touched the article should be prevented from editing it. We'd use {{editprotected}} if required, just to get truly fresh eyes. I think announcing a long policy from the outset is the best way to bore would-be POV pushing socks. (By the way, 18 months ago this would have saved tons of drama!) Cool Hand Luke 04:13, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I certainly have no problem with that. SirFozzie (talk) 04:18, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Hm, tough one here. The Janeyryan account history certainly raises a few eyebrows. It's conceivable but unlikely that a genuinely new editor could share a pointed interest in Misplaced Pages Review, Naked Short Selling, Overstock.com, Patrick Byrne, and Gary Weiss without being our old friend. A number of arbitration cases have had a multiple editors with a single voice provision, including COFS, Starwood, and Midnight Syndicate. Although that provision wasn't specifically included in the relevant case to this thread, it may be arguable that it applies generally. So on the good faith supposition that the new accounts might somehow be intimately familiar with Misplaced Pages Review yet unaware of the history behind these particular article topics, suggest leaving this instance go with a caution. Although not an administrator, I am fully prepared to open a formal arbitration clarification request and seek an amendment to the Mantanmoreland case fashioned after the findings and remedies of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Agapetos angel. Specifically:

• The recruitment of new editors to Misplaced Pages for the purpose of influencing a survey, perform reverts, or otherwise attempting to give the appearance of consensus is strongly discouraged. A new user who engages in the same behavior as another user in the same context, and who appears to be editing Misplaced Pages solely for that purpose, shall be subject to the remedies applied to the user whose behavior they are joining.
• Agapetos angel and User:Dennis Fuller, User:Phloxophilos, User:220.245.180.133, User:220.245.180.134, User:220.245.180.130, User:58.162.252.236, User:58.162.255.242 and User:58.162.251.204 are banned from editing of Jonathan Sarfati and associated articles. This list is not exclusive and the remedy applies to any user, registered or not, who engages in the same type of tendentious editing as has been done by Agapetos angel.

Posted in trust that any actual good faith contributor in this unusual situation will get the message and contribute non-disruptively, refraining from confrontational actions such as characterizing a polite request to depersonalize a dispute as trolling. It is natural that concerns exist after 2.5 years of contending with a persistent and very sneaky sockpuppeteer. Nonetheless, we err on the side of good faith at this website, and in ambiguous situations seek to act politely in ways that resolve conflict (or ambiguity). Durova 04:29, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

That might be helpful, but I truly don't want this to be a finding about these editors. This is a sophisticated sock master. Like SirFozzie said, if we banned these accounts from the subject, Mantanmoreland could still start more, using each up until he depletes its share good faith. I would be interested, in whether Arbitrators would favor some kind of protection solution. Cool Hand Luke 04:41, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

That's why I would open it as a clarification request, so that a remedy could deal with any return of MM & Co. The Agapetos angel case dealt with a dispute that had similar dimensions (although far less high profile) and a similar disruptive pattern, and the provision settled things down nicely. Given the history of CU-confirmed socking that was known even before Bassetcat was confirmed, it's a bit surprising that this year's Committee didn't include a 'who's who' provision already. Durova 04:47, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

To respond to the main proposal, heck no. Several editors already oppose arbcom's over-extension of rulings that involve editors not named in a specific case, and this would be going far further than that. Extremely out of the scope of power that arbcom has. -- Ned Scott 04:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Ned's comment appears to be directed at Luke's comment, yet fwiw the Agapetos angel decision was enacted in April 2006 and has been enforced without controversy for 2.5 years. Durova 04:43, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I've just seen this, and would mostly like to clarify, with respect to Luke, that this is more his proposal than mine. I don't have a strong opinion, but my comment was only intended to reflect the way I was approaching the situation, mainly in response to one of the new accounts' complaints that I was "revert warring" against the two of them. I consequently raised this, as I said on the page, mainly needing to clarify what was going on: two new accounts with the same views, jumping in with apparent familiarity, insulting other editors, making questionable edits, and as I considered notable, both tending to make grudgy comments about "Mr. Byrne." The specific problem I saw was that without stricter enforcement of the probation, treating new accounts like this normally would lead to another quick devolvement of the article.

To be honest, I mostly felt that if other editors knew what was going on, then the problem might solve itself (at the moment it didn't seem anyone was paying attention). From the above, I think this may still be the best option, assuming that admins are willing to look on and deal with any editor who, under the circumstances, edits tendentiously. I do think something here needed to happen, though, so I can see the basis for Luke requesting clarification. Mackan79 (talk) 06:41, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Also, to clarify, my suggestion wasn't that new editors be restricted to the talk page, but that they "be asked to rely heavily on the talk page, and not join together in reverting other editors." Of course to a great extent all editors should do this; my reason for saying that new accounts should in particular on these articles is that it is one of few ways to disarm the specific problem of sockpuppetry without much more restrictive measures. I do think that's a reasonable and possibly needed principle, whether or not it needs some finding here. Mackan79 (talk) 06:57, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry for the mischaracterization. No "reverting with other users" is probably more palatable solution, although it's also much more subjective. I agree that would be an improvement though. Cool Hand Luke 14:25, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Not to the exclusion of the excellent suggestions above, I have a recommendation to add. Part of the way that the WP:BATTLE was waged in the past was in the use of aggressive language and bad-faith accusations. Janeyryan's language perpetuates this: "please don't take out the articles you don't like", "you just want to remove opinions with which you disagree", "what I see are two editors...attempting to ban editors from an article who disagree with them", etc. Polite inquiry into another editor's reasoning and mindset is fine, but accusatory mind-reading inflames the discussion and disrupts the collaborative process. I'd like to recommend a low tolerance for mind-reading on the talk pages relevant to this case. Specifically: where such statements are made, they may be redacted by any editor without the permission of the one who made them, normal talk page etiquette notwithstanding. The editor who made the statement should be warned. And if an editor continues to use aggressive accusatory language or impute ill motives to another, they should be blocked or topic-banned quickly with appeal to Arbcom as the only recourse. alanyst 14:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Public suspicions of sockpuppetry are also accusations of bad faith. Cool Hand Luke 14:25, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, and I think that such accusations (as distinguished from polite inquiry) should also be covered under the restriction I proposed. If sockpuppetry is a concern, a discreet checkuser request or note at this AE page would be far preferable to derailing a content discussion on an article talk page. alanyst 14:38, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I regret some of my language such as that and apologize for it, but I was upset at edits that I felt were arbitrary and which changed things from correct to incorrect. This edit , reverted language by another editor that, however imperfect, made the point that the most serious NSS regulations were temporary, not permanent. That was pointed out on the talk page when originally made, but was changed back anyway. It has since then been changed back to reflect the temporary nature of those regulations.

I also was upset by this edit . While I agree that the language was inappropriate,this edit changed authorship of the cited article from correct to incorrect. Subsequent to this change, the citation was removed in its entirely by another editor, so I imagine that my concern over this was not unwarranted. I agreed that the language used by the other editor 'JohnnyB' was not good, so I later substituted more neutral language, discussed it on the talk page, and Mackan agreed with it. While all this was going on I had an exchange with Cool Hand Luke where I became annoyed, which I regret, but I was troubled that my editing was not properly appreciated. Also I felt that I was being goaded by Luke, but I now see that this was not his intent.

I just wanted to clarify the editing in question, as the subject is complicated but at issue here were some simple factual matters. I feel that my edits were generally proper, even though I did not always display proper tempermant and I certainly apologize if anyone was offended if I was not diplomatic. I agree with Mackan that editors should preferably post in the discussion pages first before making chages. I think this should be followed by all, and I thought we were reaching that. Yes, to respond to another point, I most certainly did have knowledge of the controversies surrounding these pages in a general way, as it has received widespread publicity outside of Misplaced Pages. There seem to be other editors drawn to this article by the same publicity and it is not reasonable to expect that all editors who become interested in a page because of publicity will have the same viewpoint.--Janeyryan (talk) 14:21, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll briefly address the substantive issues. 1.) Most sources I have seen report that the September emergency rules "banned" naked short selling. The current source cited in the lead says so in the subtitle. Yes, some of the rules have descriptions such as "provisional," while others don't. However, JaneyRyan and JohnyB256's decision to focus only on those that do, and therefore to remove the general assessments of many sources that have said the rules "banned" the practice, did not "correct" the article as Janeyryan says. Janey says above that he or she refers to the "most serious" parts of the regulation, but this is solely their interpretation. 2.) It is possible that JohnnyB256 was correct to expand a citation while adding the language that Janey concedes was not appropriate. However, I'm not exactly sure how this is relevant. Also, it was not someone else but myself who then removed the citation altogether in response to comments on the talk page.

In any case, I don't believe Luke or I are of the opinion that Janey did not make any valid suggestions. My concern was that after Johnny made a series of problematic and contested edits that I undid and brought to the talk page, Janey replaced the majority of them without discussion. Other changes were equally problematic, including that both removed mention of the failure of Lehman Brothers, and that both replaced contested language in the lead. The problem is that if new accounts can do this, then discussion becomes ineffective. This is why I suggest that new editors on these articles, or at least those that raise flags with the probation, should be asked to show some additional consideration for some of these problems. Mackan79 (talk) 20:32, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

It is certainly true that the sources said the rules 'banned' the practice, but more detailed sourcing indicated without a shadow of a doubt that some of these strictures were permanent and some temporary. The edits by JohnnyB drew a distinction between the temporary and permanent ones, without making value judgments as to which were more significant than others. Your edit reverted JohnnyB in toto. I reverted that reversion, and explained my reasoning on the talk page.

I think the issue concerning the authorship of the cited study is more significant than you portray it here. A study was cited in which two of the three authors were engaged in litigation related to naked shorting. Even if that conflict was not to be noted in the article (and it eventually was, as Luke agreed with me that it was important), there was no good reason to change the citation so that the two principal authors of the study were not mentioned as authors.

I disagree with you about Lehman Brothers. I think that it is POV to imply, on the basis of an offhand comment in a wire service story, that Lehman Brothers' demise was affected by naked shorting. Mr. Fuld said that, which is in the article and should be in the article. However, in Line 35, I think that a more neutral method of dealing with that issue needs to be found, without the controversial implication that the death of Lehman Brothers was caused by NSS.

While all this serious dispute was going on, you at this point placed on the article talk page your 'proposal' that in effect would ban me from the article. Luke then reiterated that proposal, again on the article talk page. Even though he said he did so to get the input of other editors, so as to not come here prematurely, I felt, and I still feel, that it was not appropriate for you to place that proposal in the article talk page. I felt that doing so derailed the discussion and turned up the temperature of the discussion considerably. Then Luke placed a post on my talk page that I felt was unecessarily confrontational. I felt beleaguered by these actions.

Whatever steps you take to enforce good behavior in this article I hope will be applied evenhandedly to new and older editors alike. I don't think it's fair to say that only new editors are making or have made inappropriate reverts, when as I just described there were edits by more established editors that were inappropriate. I think that all editors should take pains to discuss changes before making them. I also think there also should be a firm rule against discussing editor behavior, or editing strictures affecting current editors of an article, in article talk pages, whether it be this article or any article.--Janeyryan (talk) 21:02, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

To explain my "confrontational" postings: You accused me of being a POV warrior five times before I posted to your talk page, and I only did that after you said we should stop discussing it on the talk page altogether; I was doing what you requested. Contra what you state above, we were not "reaching that" or any other agreement. The talk page now stands in a position where you reject Mackan79's proposal as an attempt to "bludgeon" POVs we allegedly disagree with.

The point is not whether this or that user is making good or bad reverts. The point is that by allowing new users to revert war, we continue to provide incentives for dedicated sock masters to battle over this material. Like Cla68 said (but you reverted calling it "trolling" ), this dispute would benefit if you stop personalizing it. Cool Hand Luke 21:14, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

We're discussing what happened in the article and talk page, and I don't see how one can do that without naming the editors who did what and when. Certainl my edits have been discussed at some length, as you just did. Why is your describing my edits not 'personalizing' but when I discuss your edits it is 'personalizing.' ?

A proposal was placed on the article talk page that specifically singled out new editors, naming JohnnyB and myself, for a topic ban. That's about as personal as one can get, and it had no place on the article talk page in my opinion. It turned up the heat level and it was unnecessary. I also think that it wasn't necessayr for you to post on my article talk page as you did, essentially to make the case that even though you were proposing a topic ban of new editors, that it didn't have anything to do with me, when it clearly did. This is not 'mind reading.' Mackan's proposal singled out me and Johnny B.

I felt that the article talk pages should be confined to discussion of the article, not the editors, and I did not agree with your view that discussing a topic ban for new editors belonged in the article talk space, when it would specifically affect (and antagonize) new editors actively editing the article.

As for reverting, I believe that no one has the right to revert war, new editors or old, and that all editors should be encouraged to use the talk pages.--Janeyryan (talk) 21:39, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

No one ever suggested a topic ban. Along with SirFozzie, I don't even think a topic ban would be slightly helpful. It's a facially neutral proposal concerning editing to the article, not the editors. Cool Hand Luke 21:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

The proposal was that editors from after March could not edit, but would be confined to the talk page. That;s a topic ban, in effect if not name. Look at the 'executive summary' at the top: Executive summary: To prevent sophisticated sockpuppetry, I propose that we bar new accounts from editing the mainspace of articles under probation. You then go on to talk about 'two new accounts,' one of which is me. How can you possibly claim that this has nothing to do with me? That is why I objected to your post in my talk page, as it was making a claim that was obviously not true, which obviously would annoy the recipient of such a post.--Janeyryan (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify: the intial proposal to in topic ban new editors was made by Luke in this edit, in the article talk page, specifically mentioning JohnnyB and myself. I don't think it's correct to say that this is not plainly directed at myself and this other editor,--Janeyryan (talk) 22:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

tl;dr but this is about a larger problem, and not (just?) you.--Tznkai (talk) 22:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not, and have never been interested in uniquely restricting you or JohnnyB. Cool Hand Luke 00:22, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Stepping back

Janeyryan, let's step back from the particulars of how Luke presented his proposal. You arrived at Misplaced Pages with substantial familiarity about Misplaced Pages Review and a distinct interest in several articles that were favorites of an editor who was sitebanned a few months ago--one whose POV appears to be indistinguishable from yours. During his two years as a Wikipedian he and his interests were discussed extensively on Misplaced Pages Review. If this is coincidence it certainly is a remarkable one, particularly as we extend the good faith assumption that you stumbled into this quandary innocently despite your demonstration of fairly in-depth knowledge of the website that was most critical of him. Combine that with two other circumstances: the sitebanned editor was a serial sockpuppeteer whose last accounts were identified and banned a few months before your first edit. Now one way you could distinguish yourself from him--if indeed you have no connection to him--is by breaking from other patterns he exhibited. He was extremely skilled at sidestepping pertinent concerns about his conduct, and at blowing smoke over minor side issues, and at taking umbrage at direct questions. If you have a simple and direct explanation for this highly unusual profile of interests and POV your account has demonstrated then the community would give you a fair hearing. Historically, every previous account that has exhibited the same profile has turned out to be a sockpuppet of that same banned editor. So you can clear the air right now if you want: please, how did this come about? Durova 23:48, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I've already explained that I became interested in these articles and subject matter by raading about them off-wiki, in a number of venues where they maintain that Misplaced Pages is a center of market manipulation and other forms of agita. These articles (and subjects) have received substantial publicity. They were one of the numerous topics in the Deep Capture website, which devoted substantial space to them, and they were also addressed in the Register in several articles. Surely there are other editors who were similarly drawn to Misplaced Pages, to this article and others, by reading about them elsewhere. It's quite that simple, and I hope that is a direct enough answer. I don't think there is anything sinister about that, or suspicious, though I am aware in general terms of the recent problems and of the socking that has taken place on both sides.--Janeyryan (talk) 00:10, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

"Surely there are other editors who were similarly drawn to Misplaced Pages, to this article and others, by reading about them elsewhere." Actually, no, there weren't; certainly not in this particular combination. A few new editors showed up after naked short sales made headlines in mainstream news, but they didn't seem to have interest in the rest of the spectrum. In any case, much as I would like to agree with the idea of locking the page and having neutral administrators make edits agreed to by consensus, I am afraid it will be largely ineffective. There is a relatively small group of editors working on this article now, and a consensus generally would mean more than 3/5 editors wanting something in, with the other 2/5 saying it shouldn't be added. Despite significant efforts by several individuals to try to attract additional (and knowledgeable) editors to these articles, there is very little interest in them outside of a core group. The article probation is, I believe, important to providing a degree of control; however, given the real-world issues surrounding naked short selling, editors who work in the financial industry are probably constrained from editing that article, in particular. The other three articles specifically covered by the Arbcom probation have been much less problematic. Aside from addressing edit warring and forcing people to stick to the talk pages to work out improvements, I am hard pressed to see what full-protecting will do other than keeping the article in static form. Risker (talk) 00:27, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Note too this was three days after the Misplaced Pages Review article was moved into mainspace. Cool Hand Luke 00:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

@Risker: that's remarkable. These articles have been publicized everywhere, not to recruit people to edit them but to publicize their supposed deficiencies. I disagree that people in the financial services industry cannot edit articles on financial topics, if there is no direct conflict.

@Luke, my first edit was nine days after the Misplaced Pages Review article was moved to the website. I was not seeking to imply that I read about the Misplaced Pages Review article elsewhere; I read about WIkipedia Review itself elsewhere, as well as reading that magnificent website myself. Personally I think it is remarkable that Misplaced Pages has the forebearance to allow an article on a critical site. One correction: you or someone said that I had engaged in 'sophisticated formatting' in my first edit. Not correct. I moved a sophisticatedly formatted citation from one place to another within that page. I hope that my having done so does not detract from the fact that in my first edit I corrected a mistake.--Janeyryan (talk) 00:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, new editors would usually be expected to make a mistake with their first edit. That you did not is clearly suspicious. John Nevard (talk) 00:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

That is a remarkably unhelpful comment. ++Lar: t/c 13:52, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Behavioral rather than technical solution?

Perhaps instead of trying to find a technical solution to this problem, a behavioral one will be better. I suggest that any editor who revert wars, personalizes any content disputes, is unwilling to compromise, or personally attacks any of the other editors/admins involved with these articles (the four mentioned in the ArbCom ruling), be immediately and completely banned from participation in these four articles for a month, with subsequent penalties escalating from there. That should be enough to make sure that any interested editor behaves. By the way, I've noticed that since the banning of Mantanmoreland at least three of those articles are now much improved. Cla68 (talk) 03:09, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

This would almost work. The problem is in the loose definition of "edit war," and if we are still treating new users exactly like those who have been around. If I disagreed with an edit of Luke's and reverted it, for instance, I would be surprised if SirFozzie immediately reverted me, but I might say "ok, I guess I was wrong on that one." If SirFozzie tried a middle ground, I'd almost certainly go along. If new accounts can do the same thing, however, then there's more of a problem. That's what happened here: I disagreed with changes made by JohnnyB256, so I reverted them. Janeyryan then replaced JohnnyB256's edit with some minor adjustments. After explaining on the talk page, I reverted most of these edits again. Whoever is right in this case, I think Johnny will be able to get a hearing and show in talk if I'm disrupting the page. I can't create another account like this one, so if that happens, I'm done. If new accounts are on entirely equal footing, however, then sockpuppets can effectively overtake the page.

This isn't to disagree with your suggestion, but to say you probably still need something more to prevent that. From most restrictive to least, I see these options as 1.) Protect the page indefinitely, 2.) Restrict new editors to the talk page, 3.) Ask new editors not to revert, or 4.) Restrict editors who appear to be violating the terms or intent of the probation. Mackan79 (talk) 04:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

When editors are put on article probation, aren't they allowed only one revert a day? Why not use that as the standard for what constitutes edit warring in those article? Cla68 (talk) 07:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

As I see it, this could still be gamed by socking; in fact, it may even increase the incentive to sock in the same way as strict voting, by taking out the judgment element. So, it could slow down revert wars in the hope that then more editors would pay attention, but I'm not sure it would solve this problem. Mackan79 (talk) 07:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Mackan79. As long as new and old accounts are treated equaly, there will still be a strong incentive to sock. I see Risker's point that locking the page will keep it in largely static form, but I think that's the core idea of SlimVirgin's suggestion.

I dunno, it's not an easy problem. At the least we could try 1RR and hope that slowing reversion will provide enough time for more eyes, but I'm not confident it will be enough. Cool Hand Luke 14:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Alarm bells?

You know, when I see edit summaries like the one here, all sort of alarm bells go off on my mind. Turns out that all the stuff removed by User:Janeyryan was a)weasel worded b)wrong c) in direct contradiction with the first source on the section d) already reverted once, told to go to the talk page, where his only discussion was placing in doubt the quality of the source and making a personal attack on the person that reverted him (Shapiro) before killing the sentence again

See my repairs .

Notice that JaneyRyan writes the edit summary as if it was an unsourced sentence, but he had previously seen the source for that very same sentence and he had only put in doubt the credentials of the source, not the sourced material itself

(TL;DR paragraph) He has also tried to downplay the incidence and damage of NSS and puts in doubt that companies were bankrupted because of NSS (doh) and restoring outdated articles from 2006 and 2007 before NSS started being a visible problem and sort of misquoted sources when the source says "For the market as a whole, however, it appears to be a large and growing problem (see chart). Hundreds of smaller firms claim to have fallen victim to naked short-sellers (though some clearly only say that to excuse underperformance)" so it's perfectly correct to say that there is concern of faltering companies and not just a reaction to a crisis.

Given that these edits show an attempt to whitewash NSS, given that he re-made his edits with only personal attacks as discussion, given Janeyryan's history (which I have only looked at superficially on the last two hours), given that it's not the first time that his edits try to whitewash NSS in some form, and given that the article probation says "to refrain from any form of advocacy concerning any external (...) allegation,". Can I has a topic ban on Janeyryan? (this is the correct noticeboard to ask for a probation-related topic ban, right?)

For all that is worth, JohnnyB256 edit warred over the same sentence and source the day before . Maybe a coincidence, is it enough to has a checkuser too? --Enric Naval (talk) 23:43, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand the train of thought int he first paragraph in the above post, except that it appears to ascribing malevolent motives and actdions to me where none exist. The sentence in the litigationj section that I rewrote I explained in the talk page, under 'litigation section (redux),' and it was agreed to by the other main editor on this article without any objection. I did not know that the language was taken from the Emswhiller article, and no one mentioned it. It is absolutely not true that I had 'previously seen the source of that sentence.' (the Emswhiller article, that is). As far as I could tell it was unsourced, and it was not supported by the law review article previously given as a source, for which the authorship was not properly stated.

The assertion that thousands of companies have been bankrupted by NSS is highly controversial and should be sourced. The article saying that companies say they have 'fallen victim' to NSS is not proper sourcing for a claim that companies have been actually bankrupted, or put out of business, by NSS. If there are any such companies, let see a few examples. One would suffice.

The articles from 2006 and 2007 were not 'outdated,' and represent a skeptical school of thought that should be in the article for purposes of balance. Attempting to balance this article is not 'advocacy.'--Janeyryan (talk) 01:00, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The wikilawyering... it hurts my eyes >.< . You removed a sentence saying that illegal NSS had happened, which should have been sourcable from multiple sources....

Articles from 2006 and 2007 are of course outdated. I remind of the The Register from October 2008 where it's explained how Byrne's denouncing of NSS was downplayed by manipulating the wikipedia article, which in turn made the media believe that the issue was not important, and the manipulation wasn't uncovered until mid 2006 and it wasn't linked to the DTCC until mid 2007. Knowing that, it's silly to take at face value the media statements on 2006 and 2007, as we know that they were manipulated.

Anyways, you make some good points: the number of bankrupted companies should be sourced. However, if multiple huge companies make public statements that their notable bankruptings were caused by NSS then that's a notable thing to add to the article (especially the ones claiming that it was the only causing factor) and then balanced with analysis of which were the real causes.

Seriously, your edits are just too sympathetic to NSS, to the point of whitewashing. If you are a legit account and not a sock, then you need to take more care to make neutral edits. --Enric Naval (talk) 15:43, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

P.D.:Notice that the reason that I "attack" article specifics is because I am comment on your edits, not on you, so I forcefully have to cite specific issues. Once I have looked at them, I can tell if the edits go in a certain way. --Enric Naval (talk) 20:19, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I have a problem with the language 'there's no denying.' Surely there is a more neutral way of phrasing that, because there are indeed those who deny there is a problem, Jenkins for one. I doubt very much that he got that idea reading Misplaced Pages.--Janeyryan (talk) 20:38, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Missing the point

Janeyryan: You are again arguing about article specifics, which has already been pointed out as not helpful, and is a diversionary tactic we have seen before. I agree with all the other editors here (that is, just about everyone) that you are exhibiting a lot of hallmarks of previously banned accounts that all ended up resolving to the same problematic person. There is a problem here that transcends this particular ID, because if we decide you too are Gary Weiss or whoever it was that was behind MM etc. (which I find behaviorally quite likely) then there will be a next, and a next and a next. A prohibition of a different nature entirely is needed. Without such, we will waste valuable time of otherwise productive editors, administrators, Checkusers, and arbitrators. (I looked at the CU log again to remind me, and a fair bit of time has been wasted looking into you by several CUs, to no avail) Remove the incentive to sock, and the socks will stop. Even if we posit that you are NOT a sock, your behavior is nevertheless problematic. Remove the incentive to get away with problematic behavior and the problematic behavior will stop. So I support the notion of developing and implementing a different sort of prohibition. The sooner the better. ++Lar: t/c 13:46, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

'You are again arguing about article specifics, which has already been pointed out as not helpful.' That is really unfair and not accurate. I am responding, on point, to accusations made against my editing, as can be plainly seen from the exchange above. I strongly disagree with your saying that my 'behavior' has been more 'problematic' than that of other editors on that page, where surely I was not the first to revert. Even Luke, a regular editor of the page who brought this case here, has gone to great lengths to say that he is not singling me out and that he has agreed with some of my edits. --Janeyryan (talk) 14:20, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

This Janeyryan ID is an example of a class of problematic IDs. My beef is with the class which this ID is a member of. My commentary (in a new section that I started to break things out from being a response to any particular posting) is not a direct response to any one posting by this ID, but to the discussion on the page as a whole. I see a lot of diversionary activity, attacks, and the like. Not helpful. There is a real problem here and trying to divert this into a discussion of those pointing out the problem is not helpful. ++Lar: t/c 14:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

This is amazing. Somebody attacks me on article specifics. I respond to that attack. You say, 'Don't argue about article specifics, it is unhelpful, and is a diversionary.' I respond that I had been attacked on article specifics. You respond again that my saying that makes me part of a 'class of problematic IDs.' I am at my wits end here. Am I just supposed to sit down and shut up and not respond to accusations against me?--Janeyryan (talk) 15:06, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to respond to article specific concerns if you like, but realize that in doing so you are not addressing the major concern I have. Which is that you and several other users that frequent NSS and related articles are as likely as not to be socks of a long term problematic user. Given that that user has a track record of becoming increasingly hard to detect with each new sock, it is unfortunately irrelevant whether you technically correlate or not. You pass the WP:DUCK test and rather than trying to cope with increasingly sophisticated socking (or what appears to be such, even if it is not) the users here addressing the problem (none of whom have the remarkably narrow focus you and the other users of concern do) are trying to come up with novel solutions. You're not helping that. I note that there seems to be a pretty wide consensus (absent yourself and a few other users most of whom pass the duct test) that there is a problem and something needs to be done. Hence, you're not addressing the main point. Which is an expected behaviour pattern. ++Lar: t/c 20:03, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I have already addressed your main point, which is to say that I am not the sock of a banned user or any other user. Apart from that I answered directly what people say. I am not being 'diversionary' (changing the subject). Enric Naval advocated my topic ban, and I responded to that point. I don't see how I can just let such a remark go unresponded to, even if it does not address your concern. You do seem to have a similar concern, which is that my 'behavior' is 'problematic.' I addressed that. My purpose here is to respond to comments directed at me, or concerning me. I have done that, and accusing me of responding in a way that is somehow sinister or inappropriate, or exhibits a 'behaviour pattern' that is to be 'expected,' is not fair. Why is it objectionable for me to discuss article specifics but not when other users raise the subject, and in a way that mandates a response from me?--Janeyryan (talk) 20:38, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

A bare assertion that you are not a sock, given your behavior pattern and area of interest, is not sufficient for my satisfaction. Sorry, I'm fresh out of Good Faith in this matter. The rest of it matters not. I would like to find a solution that allows even socks to edit constructively in this area, or not at all. What we got now... ain't working. ++Lar: t/c 21:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Again, what behavior pattern? Every time I try to narrow this down to specifics, so that I can figure out what the problem is and respond, I am accused of being 'diversionary' or exhibiting 'an expected behavior pattern.' Apart from defending myself in this page and its calls for my banning from the article, I have tried to make the article on naked shorting more neutral and in that editing there seems to be agreement to my contributions, albeit grudging, even from editing accounts with which I have crossed swords.

You made another comment earlier about other accounts involved in this discussion that 'pass the duct test.' Can you please elaborate? Are you claiming that I have brought socks into 'this' discussion on this page?--Janeyryan (talk) 21:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The behavior problems are: 1.) Attacking the motives of other editors, even when it is just content that is being discussed. Huldra raised this on Janeyryan's talk page here. Cool hand luke has raised it again here. I raised it here, noting that you and JohnnyB256 were both doing this. 2.) Other advocacy on the talk page, most noticabely in making off-topic jabs at Patrick Byrne. I noticed this coming from both Janeyryan ("Mr. Byrne is the dominant voice on this page, so please let's not be silly about this.") and JohnnyB256 ("I think what you have here is an article that while it pleases your contributor Mr. Byrne is misleading to readers and skewed.") ("Mr. Byrne no doubt is pleased that his pet crusade is given one-sided treatment, but you are doing a disservice to your readers.") 3.) Editing of the article, for instance both Janeyryan and JohnnyB256 removing mention of the failure of Lehman Brothers without explanation, as well as other generally partisan edits. I note that the same also applied to JohnnyB256, possibly to a greater extent. ("tangential at best");(adding that a statement was "generally derided," a term (and tone) also favored by one of the banned accounts on this page.) As previously, the problem is not just one of these elements, but the three of them together; however, the three of them together is exactly what caused the problems last time. Mackan79 (talk) 22:25, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Alternate proposals

The proposals below are my attempts to address the existing problems, but without completely upending how we do the burden of proof on Misplaced Pages. An attempt to follow Jimbo's principle of applying strict scrutiny.

• Advocacy concerning outside disputes, controversies, proceedings and feuds, is unwelcome on Misplaced Pages
  • The appearance of advocacy is unacceptable on naked short selling and related articles, and such edits are unwelcome, as are their editors, and editors are mandated to address such disruption, keeping in mind the judicious application of common sense.
• Combative edit summaries are unwelcome on Misplaced Pages
  • Edits with combative edit summaries on naked short selling and related articles are considered to be disruptive on face, and will be removed.

OR

• Naked short selling is protected indefinitely.
• {{Editprotected}} should be used to request the insertion of non controversial material
• Naked short selling/sandbox is created, and editors should feel free to use that space to work out their differences. Stable changes in the sandbox article may be migrated to the main article with the use of {{editprotected}}.

I'm not overly pleased by either prospect, but I find it more workable than whats already been suggested (which I liberally stole from to create these proposals. Trout away.--Tznkai (talk) 21:12, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The Troubles

Request examination of the above edits plus User talk:Harrymph#The Troubles and User talk:Yachtsman1#Incivility.

Are accusations of vandalism by User:Yachtsman1 justified? If so, editing restrictions should be considered on User:Harrymph per Misplaced Pages:General sanctions. If not, editing restrictions should be considered on User:Yachtsman1. Alternatively, on both or neither. Harrymph (talk) 11:48, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I have been placed on notice of this posting by Harrymph on my talk page. The article referenced has been placed under special status, and any editor has been asked to consult on the discussion page. Notwithstanding, Harry has seen fit to make changes without meeting the requirements as stated. After reverting two edits, and leaving comments on Harrymph's talk page asking that he reach consensus before making edits, I finally resolved the matter by adding a citation to back up the portion Harry wished to have deleted without consultation. I consider this matter closed, and would merely ask that Harrymph attempt to reach consensus before making any further changes to The Troubles.Yachtsman1 (talk) 18:30, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I've no quibble with the citation provided or the content of the article. My request is for neutral examination of the editor behaviour. Either I am a vandal or Yachtsman is rude or both or neither.

I have no intention of ever editing the article again, nor have I ever edited it before this. As usual, the bullying tactics of the article's owners have succeeded in scaring me off. Harrymph (talk) 08:15, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

The article you were editing was one under special sanctions. My initial attempt was to make you aware of that fact, my intent clearly stated that my undo was to avoid conflict if possible, and I extended the courtesy of explaining my actions on your talk page asking that you try to seek consensus on your edit. You changed it yet again, even after it was fully explained, which caused me to undo your change, provide another explanation, and finally conduct research to provide the citation in the article, and to place the entire matter to rest. Thus, the article received a citation, your reason for making the edit was obviated, and everyone can move on. In any case, at no time did I use abusive language, name calling, or any other device that would make my actions "incivil". As stated, I feel this matter is closed, and would merely ask that in the event you ever wish to edit The Troubles in the future, kindly seek consenses before making any siginficant change to the article. Yachtsman1 (talk) 16:04, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

• On the basis of what has been stated above, I would move that this matter be formally closed by any willing administrator. Thank you.Yachtsman1 (talk) 16:21, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

You did indulge in abusive name calling. You called me a vandal. Three times. Harrymph (talk) 19:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you again for your comments. This does not rise to the level of abuse, nor is it "name-calling" as vandalism could be changed without penalty on the article in question. Each change was accompanied by full explanations in each case, none of which was incivil by any standard. In sum, I do not find your complaint has merit, and suggest, again, that this matter be closed by an administrator. In the future, please ask for consensus before making any additional changes to The Troubles in order to avoid conflict.Yachtsman1 (talk) 19:27, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

My changes were "accompanied by full explanations in each case, none of which was incivil by any standard". Unfortunately, yours were not. For which, you still have not apologised or acknowledged your mistake. Harrymph (talk) 09:54, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. Let me expound for a moment. Your changes were to an article that is perhaps the single most controversial article on this site, one that has engendered heated debate, conflict, mediation, arbitration and other measures that are clearly stated on the Discussion page as the result of its subject matter. In other words, this is an article with a "troubled" history. Any editor, including you, is required to seek consensus prior to making any substantive changes to The Troubles. Thus, any serious change made without seeking required consensus is vandalism, and violates the unique standards set forth after arbitration for this particular article. If anything, it should be you extending an apology to me, an editor who has gone to great lengths to seek consensus on the article in question prior to making changes to meet both neutrality and quality standards. It should be you who extends an apology for so quickly dismissing my good faith effort to have you reach consensus, which you roundly ignored, instead creating the very conflict I was trying my best to avoid by stubbornly making the change yet again without seeking consensus, even though you were fully aware that such consensus was a requirement. Even then, I reverted your change back, performed research, and added a cite to remedy the problem, obviating your objection to the item in question (in other words, resolved the issue). I shall repeat - Your complaint lacks merit in my opinion, my comments were extremely civil, they were in conformance with the conditions placed on editing the article in question, and I consider this matter closed. Let me also take this opportunity to remind you to please seek consensus before making any additional substantive edits to The Troubles. If, as you state, you have no intention of editing The Troubles any further, then the matter is doubly closed. Thank you.Yachtsman1 (talk) 19:45, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

You keep going on about the article. This isn't about the article. It's about you callng me a vandal without justification. Harrymph (talk) 07:50, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you again for your comment. It's all about the article in question, and the unique character of that article. Under those circumstances, unilaterally changing the article without consensus was vandalism, the comment was civilly provided, justified and correct. Let me repeat - Please seek consensus before making any additional substantive edits to The Troubles. Thank you again. Yachtsman1 (talk) 15:06, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

• I again move that this matter be closed. An objective examination reveals that the complaint lacks merit, incivility is lacking, and this running debate is getting nowhere. Yachtsman1 (talk) 15:06, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

It says quite categorically at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles that "Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources requires that information be supported by a reliable source." It says nothing about removal of unsourced information being vandalism nor does it say that editing of the article is banned unless you first raise the issue on the talk page. You've now called me a vandal twice more based solely on your own personal rule which you've invented outwith of the arbitration case in order to impose your own opinion on the article.

It also says there that editors indulging in edit warring can be put on probation. If I edit-warred by making two similar edits in the space of twenty-four hours, then so did you: . The difference is that my edits were supported by policy WP:V and were civil, while yours were uncivil and unsupported by policy. Harrymph (talk) 15:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you again for your comments. Edit warring requires three changes on the same article in a 24 hour period by the same editor. The special sanctions for this article also require that consensus be reached before making a substantial change in the article. The remainder of your points, a non sequitor of the first order that does not incorporate an assumption of good faith, does not merit a response. Thank you again.Yachtsman1 (talk) 17:55, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

You keep mentioning the "special sanctions" which mean that consensus must be sought prior to editing the page but I can't find them anywhere. I do not see them on the article page, or the talk page, or the arbitration page, or the general sanctions page, nor do they appear when you click the edit button. Please provide a direct link and a quote. Harrymph (talk) 08:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Alright, full stop.

I am reviewing this matter, but a few things need to be clarified:

• The Troubles is a highly controversial article and is under General Sanctions. There are a number of useless details and a lot of specific rules but it comes down to this: we (Misplaced Pages at large) have a lower tolerance of edit warring, incivility and other nonsense and administrators are mandated to address it.
• Apply common sense when editing any article, apply extra common sense when editing controversial articles.
• Vandalism has a very specific definition, and refers to a very specific kind of problem, and it never refers to actual content disputes.
• Edit warring is any set of actions, inactions, and mindsets that encourages or tolerates confrontational tactics when in a content dispute. This especially includes reverting edits and a lack of constructive discussion.
• Civility is an important behavioral issue that we mandate editors follow in order to produce a functioning productive environment for encyclopedia writing.
• The Vandalism, Edit warring and Civility policies are important, but they are not to be used as ammunition in personal or content disputes. There is probably nothing more counterproductive than using policies as a bludgeon against other editors.
• Harrymph and Yachtsman1 are highly encouraged to edit articles that have no mention of the words "Ireland" or "Irish" or "Troubles" while I sort this out.

Now there is an election or something that is going on today, so please be patient while I review the issue. --Tznkai (talk) 14:16, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Resolved