Misplaced Pages

• Administrators
  • Main
  • Incidents
• Bots
• Bureaucrats
• Centralized discussion
• Closure requests
• Education
• Interface admins
• Main Page errors
• Open proxies
• VRT
• Oversight
• User permissions

• Biographies of living persons
• Copyrights
  • Questions on media
  • Problems
• Dispute resolution
• External links
• Fringe theories
• Neutral point of view
• Original research
• Pending changes
• Reliable sources
• Resource requests
• Scalable vector graphics
• Spam
  • Blacklist
  • Whitelist
• Style
• Titleblacklist
• Translation

• History merges
• Mergers
• Splits
• Moves
• Protection
• Importation
• XfD
  • Articles
  • Redirects
  • Categories
  • Templates
  • Files
  • Miscellany
• Undeletion

• Conflict of interest
• Contributor copyright
• Edit warring and 3RR
• Sanctions
  • Personal restrictions
  • General sanctions
  • Contentious topics
• Sockpuppets
• Usernames (Requests for comment)
• Vandalism

• Arbitration
  • Committee noticeboard
  • Requests
  • Enforcement
• Edit filters
  • Requested
  • False positives
• Questions
  • Help desk
  • Teahouse
  • Reference desk
  • New articles
• Requests for comment
• Village pump
  • Policy
  • Technical
  • Proposals
  • Idea lab
  • WMF
  • Miscellaneous
• WikiProject proposals
• Discussions for discussion

• Talk
• Sockpuppet investigations
• Backlog

• The result of the discussion was no consensus for this user being topic banned.
• The result of the discussion was no consensus for this user being indefinitely blocked from editing Misplaced Pages.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Christopher Connor (talk · contribs) has just created the essay Misplaced Pages:On being Jewish. He has also linked to it from the main BLP policy page and given it the shortcut name WP:JEWISH.

The topic of how we decide which individuals should be considered Jewish for purposes of writing and categorizing Misplaced Pages articles may be the legitimate subject of an essay. However, Christopher Connor has chosen to illustrate his essay with two images. The first of these is an image of Adolf Hitler leading a Nazi military rally or parade, and has been given the caption "a Nazi informs his personal army of the definition of a Jew." The second image is the file "Kiev Jew Killings in Ivangorod 1942" and has been captioned "categorizing an aryan as a mischling is a BLP violation."

The use of these images, with these (or any) captions, to illustrate a Misplaced Pages space essay on categorization, is offensive and reflects a deplorable indifference to the sensitivity of these images and the events they represent. Moreover, this is not the first time Christopher Connor has conducted himself in this manner. Last month, Christopher Connor used the same image of Hitler addressing a rally to illustrate his essay "Misplaced Pages:BLP Nazi" (subsequently moved in toned-down form to Misplaced Pages:BLP zealot). Discussion on Christopher Connor's talkpage and in Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:BLP Nazi should certainly have made it clear to this editor, as if it could ever have been in question, that depictions of Nazi and Holocaust related events are not suited for decorating essays on editing policies.

That Christopher Connor has repeated this behavior suggests to me that this editor is deeply insensitive to the feelings of his colleagues here, and I recommend that he be blocked from editing or, at a minimum, that he be appropriately restricted. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:28, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• Wow, yeah, that's pretty disgusting. I'd support any restrictions or sanctions anyone placed on him. We don't need that kind of stuff here at Misplaced Pages. Not at all. Writing an essay about Jewishness and then filling it with images of Nazis, including one of Nazis shooting Jewish people is pretty egregious. --Jayron32 05:32, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • It's been speedy deleted. Basket of Puppies 05:46, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Trout me if it was the wrong decision. I noticed NYB applied __noindex__ to it, so I restored it, then deleted it again, because I'm fickle like that. Xavexgoem (talk) 05:48, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
      • I don't mind its being deleted. My only concern was that deletion would make it harder for non-admins to follow this ANI discussion regarding the editor who created it, but I put in a brief description of the content above in case of just that eventuality. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:52, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Blocked for 1 week, as well. He'd been warned. Xavexgoem (talk) 05:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
      • Good call. Courcelles 06:38, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Why exactly is this user not instead indef blocked?— Dædαlus 07:27, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Eh...I thought about it, but his contribs go back a ways and he doesn't have a history. Hopefully he'll get the hint. Otherwise, yes, indef. Xavexgoem (talk) 07:34, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Indef block until he gets it. There is absolutely no place for that kind of...(I don't even know what he was trying to do there, extraordinarily dark "humor" possibly)...anywhere on this encyclopedia. Indef block and wait for a full apology. This is a second occurrence. N419BH 08:17, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
      • An apology? Xavexgoem (talk) 18:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support one-week block. Not the first time this has happened and given prior warnings it's reasonable. Opposed to indef-blocking a perfectly okay content contributor based on just this, but CC must treat this as his very last warning, or an indef would be very deserved and appropriate. StrPby (talk) 08:39, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Both the one-week block or an indef block until the user demonstrates that he understands the problem are (or would have been) an appropriate reaction.  Sandstein  11:05, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• I can't see the deleted page, but based on NYB's description and the earlier "BLP Nazi" page (which I did see), one week seems to be appropriate to drive the message home. Hans Adler 11:42, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• A week sounds ok to me. Having peeked at the essay, didn't bother to read it through, given I found it so... ugly, guess it looked to me kind of like where failed sarcasm falls splat across the pale into trolling. en.WP's not censored but nor is it "ED II, the Unleashed." Gwen Gale (talk) 12:14, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Actually, without the at best entirely thoughtlessly and provocatively chosen images and captions, there might have been a point to be made here, albeit that it's not, in reality, specific to Jewishness by any stretch of the imagination. For those non-administrators who cannot read the now-deleted revisions: Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive97#Ed Miliband, Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive645#Allegation of antisemitism, and Ed Miliband (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) were the primary drivers of this particular case. You don't really need the deleted page to see the issue and the argument, which was re-hashed here from the BLP Noticeboard and article talk page in an almost canonically ill-thought Godwin's Law manner. Uncle G (talk) 12:18, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Just want to add here that there was some other strangeness recently, when he wrote an article about, and was half pretending to be, this Christopher Connor. Submitted it for DYK, said he was particularly keen to have it used, then refused to answer questions, there and on the COI board, from people wanting to make sure he was a different Christopher Connor. Discussions here and here. It was a minor thing, but it was odd. He declined even to acknowledge that people were asking him a question. SlimVirgin 12:39, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • I thought at the time that that might have been being deliberately silent to make the point that according to Project:Outing an editor is not obliged to answer questions as to xyr identity, and that it's a little foolish to assume that there's just one "Christopher Connor" in the world. Or that someone's "conflict of interest" may extend only as far as having an interest in writing the articles about encyclopaedic people that happen to share xyr name. It seems that I was right. Uncle G (talk) 13:07, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Unblock request

Christopher has now apologised and agreed not to repeat his actions in an unblock request on his talk page. I think with his previously clean record, we should give him this chance. StrPby (talk) 12:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC) :I concur. The article text and the images are at odds with each other as the text was not racist nor baiting but seemed to be an attempt tp clarify and help some BLP issues. The images were clearly beyond the line and the block seems to have gotten his attention. JodyB _talk 12:21, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Unblocking. After the reading the diffs below I must conclude that this is a pattern of insensitivity. Although his block log was previously clean there is ample evidence that he has been and remains clueless. JodyB<subBold text> talk 14:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I do agree there, the images are what hurled it over the line. If he'd further say he'll be more careful with any images he uses in hoped for irony, I'd see no need to keep the block. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:28, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I've come to oppose an unblock, given CC's later answers on his talk page left me neutral but mostly because I wasn't aware of the DYK diffs shown by iridescent. Taken altogether, I've meaningful worries he may not have made these edits for encyclopedic reasons. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:00, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• I think I oppose an unblock. "Categorising an Aryan as a Mischling is a BLP violation" under an image of Jews being executed by the Einsatzgruppen. Hard to know how to describe that if not as baiting. SlimVirgin 12:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I recall that caption. I took it as sarcasm which was so startlingly botched, it indeed looked like trolling, but likely was not. I think almost all sarcasm is baiting in some way. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock without question after seeing Iridescent's diffs, especially SlimVirgin 13:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock—so let's recap: this guy writes an essay at WP:JEWISH, which he illustrates with images of Hitler and the Nazis. He is blocked for a week. He says sorry. We unblock him after seven hours. Seriously... no. I cannot imagine any good faith explanation for his actions, other than possibly the most serious case of gross insensitivity I've come across in a long while.
  In fact, the case, bears a striking similarity to Berlusconi saying that he shouldn't be blamed for telling a Holocaust joke in a speech; rather, "the bad taste was in those who published it."
  This guy seriously needs a block for more than a few hours to demonstrate to him that the project doesn't consider this sort of thing acceptable, thus preventing further future disruption. ╟─TreasuryTag►Speaker─╢ 13:03, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

  But blocks aren't punitive, and he knows that if he messes up again he'll likely end up indef-blocked. So what's the harm? StrPby (talk) 13:04, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

  The harm comes from us sending out a message that blocks for the most outragoeous behaviour will be overturned within a couple of hours if the perpetrator says, "Oh, I'm tho thorry I made a mithtake." We need to make it plain to this editor that we will not tolerate actions such as the ones they took; if we do not make this plain, it is plausible or even likely that they will repeat them. And by unblocking this soon, it looks suspiciously like toleration to me.
  The let's-unblock-and-then-if-they-do-it-again-reblock argument should really only apply to behaviours which the person involved didn't know were problematic at the time. But this guy must have known that his Nazi snaps were inappropriate. ╟─TreasuryTag►quaestor─╢ 13:10, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock. Lord help me, but I'm actually going to agree with TreasuryTag on something; an unblock for something which no reasonable person could have considered legitimate sends out the wrong message about Misplaced Pages's values and aims. This isn't a one off incident (, , , ); this looks to be someone with an agenda. – iridescent 13:19, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock Frankly, I one of the first to say Misplaced Pages can be over sensitive to Jewish sensibilities and throw round anti-Semitism charges far too quickly, which tends to have a chilling effect. However, this editor is clearly over the line. This is trolling. An apology might be good enough, if it had been a case of "he's learnt his lesson", but he was heavily criticised for his Misplaced Pages:BLP Nazi recently, and had evidently not taken the hind. A week block is very lenient, and should be served. Next time, I'd propose an outright ban.--Scott Mac 13:39, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • On the boosterism problem: Can either of the two of you remember where the criticism was that Misplaced Pages biographies tended to start in their first sentences with a whole string of religious, ethnic, sexual, and geographic associations, each with reams of citation cross-links, before even getting to the important stuff about a person for which they are actually known? I think that we already have a non-Godwinized essay on the general subject, which is far from specific to Jewishness, but I cannot remember where I saw it. Uncle G (talk) 13:55, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock. I fully endorse every word of iridescent's rationale. Hans Adler 13:40, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock This Editor is not a a noob, Mr. Connor knows our norms here. Especially on the heels of the BLP nazi incident. Commons sense should have WP:CLUED him in. Its not rocket science to figure out that having an essay filled with images nazi would cause an adverse reaction with out the essay being called Misplaced Pages:On being Jewish. We are extremely lucky one of us found it and not the Media or a one of the many Jewish advocacy groups. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 14:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock - User should be on a short leach also when it expires. Off2riorob (talk) 14:16, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock. What Iridescent said, and the diffs Iridescent provided. Saebvn (talk) 14:30, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock I agree with Iridescent. There is something not quite right here. In addition to the diffs Irridesent gave, there are many other questionable edits, for example just recently a DYK with unnecessary details of a lynching. In the diff where he created Jewish lawyer stereotype, he claimed to be one. That article has problems going back to its creation: Shylock evidently was not a lawyer in the Merchant of Venice (the "lawyer" in the play was of the fairer sex). Thank goodness he forgot Peter Taylor, Baron Taylor of Gosforth in that first irksome diff. Was it some kind of bad taste joke? Mathsci (talk) 14:49, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • When Christopher Connor created that article, it was actually entitled Jewish lawyer. Uncle G (talk) 15:12, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
    • That doesn't help very much, does it? Mathsci (talk) 19:35, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
      • There was relevant discussion at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 65#Jewish lawyer, which was more about the article in general and an edit that Jimbo had made to it, and his belief that it needed to be made clear that the article was about a stereotype, which was part of the impetus for this proposal (by me): Talk:Jewish lawyer stereotype#Name change? (though of course "stereotype" was not in the title at the time.) The whole article was (and remains) at least a little disturbing, but at least the title is better. The discussion also had the collateral benefit of getting Jewish mother renamed to Jewish mother stereotype, though that is a much older article and Christopher Connor does not seem to have been involved in that one. Neutron (talk) 21:14, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
        • Renamed back to Jewish mother stereotype note. Uncle G (talk) 02:09, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock. I edit conflicted with Gwen Gale on declining the request. Editors have expressed concern over his edits in the past, in relation to DYK hooks and elsewhere, and those concerns should have given him pause - but did not. I appreciate that this editor works on articles where few editors are wont to tread, but that doesn't give him license for these edits. It may be helpful if he were able to show that he understands why everyone is so upset over this incident, and the previous ones, before requesting unblock again. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:23, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock at the moment. I'm not convinced the content was intended to be as bad as it was, but intent only gets you so far. Also, it's not necessarily racist to point out that "x% of people arrested for jaywalking are Lower Slobovian", if the police have a predilection to bust Lower Slobovians and let Upper Ombrians slide. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:04, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock It's pretty clear from his talk page that he doesn't get it and is blaming everyone else for the mess he finds himself in. N419BH 19:02, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock per Iridescent's diffs. There is also something ineluctably weird about the apology itself. Not buying that. Bishonen | talk 03:45, 16 November 2010 (UTC).
• Oppose unblock per Iridescent's diffs, and the fact that the essay was entirely inappropriate and a simple apology is not enough. —mc10 (u|t|c) 05:38, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock An apology is not enough. Inka 18:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Up to indef

My reading of the discussion above, especially the comment by Mathsci, is that we cannot trust this editor not to engage in subtle vandalism to insert anti-Jewish rhetoric into Misplaced Pages. Jehochman 14:54, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• support the diffs by Iridescent show crystal clear agenda that is harmful to wikipedia. The Article created log makes the pattern even more disturbing The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 15:01, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • What harmful agenda is being revealed by 2004 European Open (snooker), Smolarek, Personality of the year, Protection of Children Act, draw sheet, and Climbié? Uncle G (talk) 15:12, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
    • I said the diffs provided by Iridescent, show an agenda. Creating articles like Indigenous Australians and crime, Talk:Black people and crime in the United Kingdom, Lynching of Ell Persons, Jewish lawyer, The Color of Crime, Racial hoax, Criminal black man stereotype combined with Today's Nazi page show a troubling pattern which i think can be reasonably identfied as an agenda. I could also support the Topic Ban as well which would probably solve my concerns as well. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 16:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
      • You also said that that agenda was part of a pattern shown by the likes of List of Israeli ambassadors to France, 2004 Grand Prix (snooker), Society for Anglo-Chinese Understanding, and 2007 A.S. Roma–Manchester United F.C. conflict. These are your examples, that you pointed to, remember. Moreover, what's "troubling" about racial hoax? You seem to be conflating an interest in race relations topics with some sort of unspecified "troubling" racialist agenda. Have you not thought that you're proving Christopher Connor right? Write about race relations topics, and people will not look further than the titles and accuse one of racism. What's "troubling" about education.gov.uk? What's "disturbing" about Stationary office? What harmful pattern is Office of the Children's Commissioner revealing? ‎ Uncle G (talk) 17:05, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
        • I am not saying Stationary office is a bad article thats a straw man. Singularly Nothing here is "bad." But combine with the creation of the the articles I specified combined with the diffs Iridescent's. I dont think its unreasonable to have concerns of pattern. I would love to assume no clue but all this together looks suspicious. Take this DYK suggestion I am looking at a dozen less provocative facts that could have been used in the Article same with Black people and crime in the United Kingdom. The conversation that followed indicates he doesnt get it why people might have an adverse reaction. I am NOT saying he is a single purpose account to promote racists views on Misplaced Pages. But I have to question what he is thinking when he does pulls stunts like what I discussed above becuase I have a hard time believing and Editor can be that Clueless. I said I would be willing to accept a topic ban as alternative but some of his editing patters do raise flags in my book The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 17:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Weak opposeHaving read others comments a critique of my arguements and some thought off Wiki. i have stricken by support of topic ban. I still have serrious reservations about this editor but a topic ban seem to more appropriate for now. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 20:03, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose I support the block for the present essay creation (and the BLP nazi one earlier). However, I'm not seeing a pattern of vandalism. I'm seeing a number of politically incorrect editing interests, and nominations, but nothing more. Has been inserting stuff unsupported by sources? Perhaps he's being deliberately provocative — but I've seen worse. The essays are over the line, and he needs to get it, and not repeat it. But I don't want to ban for being offending liberal sensitivities.--Scott Mac 15:23, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support, broadly per my comments above. ╟─TreasuryTag►Africa, Asia and the UN─╢ 15:37, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose at this time.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:01, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support His unblock request clearly demonstrates his lack of sincere apology, including a non-apology apology. It is clear he does not appreciate the horror of his actions have caused. No small number of my family were murdered in the Holocaust. I strongly support an indefinite block and severe future sanctions. Basket of Puppies 16:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - No block history, quite a few contribs. User had not been sufficiently warned for an indef. Remember that he's blocked for provocation, not for being anti-semitic (or generally white-supremacist), and it's just too easy to conflate things when reading his apologies or unblock requests. Xavexgoem (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Support I doubt this will gain consensus, but it appears this user is doing quite a bit of race baiting here. If this isn't enacted, a topic ban is definitely in order. AniMate 18:10, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose indef for now. Block log was clean, I don't think it's fair to indef without warning an editor who in over 3 1/2 years has made over 3000 edits with few if any kerfuffles. At the very least, he has tried to sensationalize some racial articles and two essays and this is worrisome, but edits to racial topics have been a small slice of his editing history. His answers to questions about his edits tend to be a bit coy for me, it may be how he is though, I don't know, but it's why I don't support an unblock. The week long block may be needed, giving him time to think things over. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:57, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose indef block. Although I agree that some of this user's edits, and his lack of comprehensive explanations for them, are disturbing, the level of disruption is not very high. This is his first block and a repetition of this behaviour would quickly lead to a much longer block. I do not believe this editor engages in, or is likely to engage in, subtle vandalism to push any particular viewpoint; in fact he engages in somewhat odd borderline trolling and introduction of controversial material for unknown reasons. If he were trying to push a viewpoint, he would not be deliberately courting controversy as he appears to have done on occasion --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:57, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

(clarifying my comment - I should have said "the level of disruption is not very high when compared with the constructive contributions" - I was not suggesting that the offensive behaviour itself was insignificant, even if not intended to be offensive) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:45, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose let's not get ahead of ourselves. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:51, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose Not yet. Inka 22:09, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Response to this thread by Christopher Connor

On his talk page. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• Here's the whole thread on his talk page: User_talk:Christopher_Connor#Block_note

Regarding "But simply proposing those hooks is, according to ANI, racist. That seems to me to be twisted", you've had it explained to you (repeatedly) what the issue is, but each time go into WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT mode; see the discussion here for instance. You're cherry-picking facts (e.g. "15.7% of those convicted for homicide in Australia are indigenous", "indigenous Australians make up 2% of the population"), disregarding other information (differential conviction rates, relative probabilities of success of police investigations in close-knit communities vs large urban areas) to come up with the synthesis of "Indigenous Australians committed 15.7 percent of homicides in Australia". If this was a one-off incident then yes, these things happen, but as you yourself recognize you have a long history of being warned for inappropriate comments and suggestions (from most people I'd take this as a ham-fisted joke, but in this case I'm not sure), but your response seems always to be that the problem is with everyone else, not yourself. – iridescent 15:23, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion - topic ban

I suggest letting the week long block stand, and then imposing (preferably with his agreement) a topic restriction on all race-related content, commentary and comment. He also should not initiate any new essays without consulting others as to their appropriateness.--Scott Mac 15:29, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

"Without consulting others" is a woolly and meaningless phrase which is essentially courting disaster. Needs tightening. ╟─TreasuryTag►You may go away now.─╢ 15:38, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree; just make it clear that he's prohibited from initiating new essays at all if he cannot be trusted, or throw the last line out altogether. As for essays relating to race, that's covered by the first part of the topic restriction. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:57, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Supportin lieu of full of indef block this seems to be a good alternative The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 16:14, 15 November 2010 (UTC) This seems to be the most reasonable action for now The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 20:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Support the topic ban. The nature of the restriction on creating essays needs to be made clearer, if there is to be a restriction at all.--Korruski 16:33, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Support the topic ban, can't see the point of the essay thing (assuming the topic ban wld preclude essays dealing with race/ethnicity issues)appears to be more a problem of pushing peoples buttons occassionaly, hopefully the block will get the message thru--Misarxist 17:17, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Support The block should stand, and if an indef block isn't applied he should at the very least be restricted from all race related topics. AniMate 18:08, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Support, strongly. Basket of Puppies 18:16, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Support ban on racial topics/edits, broadly construed, throughout the en.WP space, which he can ask to be lifted after 3-6 months. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:03, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Support Good solution. As others have said, it should be broadly interpreted so as to include all the problematic articles mentioned so far. Mathsci (talk) 19:56, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Support, but... when I read this whole thread, User:Wassermann, indefblocked since June 2009, kept popping into my head. You remember Wassermann's incessant bad-faith category lawyering? Connor's ban must, apart from articles and essays, include categories, very broadly construed; i.e. he doesn't get to add categories touching on nationality or ethnicity in any way. We need to set something up that doesn't take up too much of the time and energy of other editors to check on and argue about. Do we also need to make a sock check? I'm asking, not accusing; not being much good with socks. Bishonen | talk 04:28, 16 November 2010 (UTC).

Comment A broad topic ban across the en.WP space would mean categories were out of bounds, too. So long as the ban was broadly racial/ethnicity, I think that would cover any contentious nationality cats. A topic ban needs to be simple and straightforward, easy to understand and follow, otherwise breaches and a long block are more or less foregone, I think. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:14, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Support - The essay alone shows he can't be trusted in this area, let alone the other dubious edits he's made. Skinny87 (talk) 08:30, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Support The diffs provided above show the editor is using Misplaced Pages to push an inappropriate agenda: if there is no indef block and no one is volunteering to closely monitor the editor, a strong topic ban is required to avoid further wasted time. Johnuniq (talk) 09:26, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - have you looked at the article he created on the Lynching of Ell Persons?--Toddy1 (talk) 16:26, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment Yes, that was a worthwhile contribution to the project. I could support a time limited topic ban to allow him to edit constructively in areas unrelated to race and to gain some trust and more understanding of policy, perhaps three months? Off2riorob (talk) 16:44, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment The article does not bear close scrutiny. Much of it is written using primary sources (contemporary newspaper reports from 1917) rather than paraphrasing summaries of the material from secondary sources. There is a problem with the whole of the first three paragraphs of the main text: they fail WP:V and WP:RS; they are WP:SYNTH and WP:OR pieced together from local newspaper reports at the time. I tried to check the statements about the theories of Alphonse Bertillon (seeing the image of the murder in the dead girl's pupils): I found nothing in the 2001 Law Review. One published article relates : "The most convincing evidence against Persons was an alleged photograph of Antoinette Rappel’s decapitated head in which Officer Paul Waggner claimed to see Person’s forehead in the victim’s retina." I did find a report that Waggner was trained in "Bertillon technique" in an uncited 1928 Ph.D. (J.R. Steelman), But that is not what can be read in the article. Similar questionable edits on lynchings precipitated the indefinite block of MoritzB (talk · contribs) in 2007, also discussed here on ANI. Elsewhere this editor uses "google translate" to access French documents and has not so far noticed that "Par" is not a first name in French. There is something not quite right in all of this. Mathsci (talk) 01:23, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Mainstream newspaper reports are accepted by Misplaced Pages as reliable sources WP:NEWSORG.--Toddy1 (talk) 05:17, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Local newspapers in Memphis in 1917 in the days of segregation? You must be joking. Mathsci (talk) 05:24, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose per Toddy1. Just let the block expire as planned.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Support - A single article does not automatically make him a constructive editor. I'm going to need more than that to prove he's able to keep his opinions to himself. Given the essay, I don't think that's going to happen.. not to mention his past behavior. It's a problem that he can't figure out, and thus cannot be trusted with. Support topic ban per Toddy1.— Dædαlus 21:50, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose In a nutshell, this situation is too complex at this moment for a simple solution like this. What puzzles me about this issue is that, prima facie, except for the images used I found nothing objectionable to this user's now-deleted essay: it was a a banal restatement of a number of such truisms as a proposed definition for labelling someone a Jew, that being identified as a Jew can be controversial, etc. This does not mean I endorse the essay: I just don't see why anyone would bother to write it, thus leading me to suspect that there is something in it only someone familiar with anti-Semitic hate speech would catch. (And while the apology on his Talk page isn't exactly what I'd label a "non-apology apology", it isn't what I'd expect to see in a sincere apology either.) In other words, this guy seems to be playing games with the rules, & while I can't say what his intent could be I don't entirely trust him. Subjecting him to anything but the simplest & clearest restrictions will only make the rest of us work harder to sanction him if it becomes clear that he is harming Misplaced Pages. I believe letting him come back after a week with no new restrictions -- but keeping an eye on him -- will be the simplest & best solution. If this guy pulls another stunt like that essay, we can then ban him for good without needing to take any further steps; if he is editting in good faith, & this was simply a case where he was putting his foot in his mouth, then all of us can step away from this with no unintended bitterness or dramaz & move on to better things. -- llywrch (talk) 23:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Support The hastily-applied air-freshener spray doesn't cover up the stink. Plutonium27 (talk) 20:15, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Supportish - Editor should be allowed to submit work via proxy editor if that work is acceptable within an article (I'd volunteer). It walks and quacks like a duck, but is it a duck? If that's the impression that's been created, perhaps some sort of absolvency (<-- new word) should be permitted. Xavexgoem (talk) 09:57, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose: seems overkill per those opposing above. -Atmoz (talk) 13:53, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose: Text of deleted item is innocuous in the extreme - sans the images this is storm in teacup. Rich Farmbrough, 22:52, 18 November 2010 (UTC).

Oppose llywrch sums it up nicely. He's wikilawyering, no need to give him more rules to lawyer about. If he steps over the line again he can be tossed. -- ۩ Mask 03:48, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Putting those images in the essay was tasteless, but I don’t think it’s been demonstrated that he’s actually unable to contribute to race-related articles in a neutral manner. Having created several articles related to racial stereotypes (such as those linked to by ResidentAnthropologist) doesn’t demonstrate an agenda if the articles are about notable topics and don’t give undue prominence to minority views. And if they do, that hasn’t been demonstrated in this thread. Since Christopher Conner has no prior blocks, he may have learned the lesson that he needed to from this block. We should wait and see whether he has after the block expires. --Captain Occam (talk) 20:56, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I ask to check behaviour of Ckatz_spy who repeatedly disrupts Misplaced Pages article American College of Pediatricians by removing facts documented by highly reliable expert source simply since he don't like those facts and threats me on my talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Destinero#November_2010 --Destinero (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I've never had problems with Ckatz before that I recall, but this does seem odd and inappropriate on Ckatz' part. I don't understand the reasoning behind this removal at all. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:33, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

At first sight, Destinero and Ckatz appear to be edit warring at American College of Pediatricians. Ckatz may consider that his actions are justified by his admin role, since he is taking out a passage that deplores the ACP in Misplaced Pages's voice, and which uses a reference linked to a primary source, a brief that was filed in a court case, though some of the participating organizations might have published their views elsewhere. Some of the language Ckatz was removing was "This small faction's views are out of step with the overwhelming body of scholarly research-based positions.." This is being stated in Misplaced Pages's voice as a matter of fact about the American College of Pediatricians. At a minimum, the language needs fixing for neutrality, and a legal brief should probably not be cited. EdJohnston (talk) 18:50, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE policy specifically requires: "In articles specifically about a minority viewpoint, views may receive more attention and space. However, such pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. Specifically, it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view. In addition, the majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader can understand how the minority view differs from it, and controversies regarding aspects of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained. How much detail is required depends on the subject. Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors or the general public."

WP:GEVAL policy specifically requires: "While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Misplaced Pages policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship. There are many such beliefs in the world, some popular and some little-known: claims that the Earth is flat, that the Knights Templar possessed the Holy Grail, that the Apollo moon landings were a hoax, and similar. Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or even plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit them where including them would unduly legitimize them, and otherwise describe them in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the greater world."

Please, explain and clarify what exactly should be fixed for neutrality in current version of the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=American_College_of_Pediatricians&diff=397345997&oldid=397268492 I consider it fully in compliance with Misplaced Pages standards. --Destinero (talk) 19:02, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Destinero needs to stop the edit warring and justify the changes they want to make. They appear to be inserting analysis not supported by the supplied source. Franamax (talk) 18:59, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Are you serious? Amici curiae (National Association of Social Workers, National Association of Social Workers - West Virginia Chapter, Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute, North American Council on Adoptable Children, and West Virginia Coalition Against Domestic Violence) are national and West Virginian organization dedicated to the welfare of children. "Amici sumbit this brief to (a) inform the Court of the extensive body of social science research demonstrating that children raised by same-sex couples develop just as well, and are as healthy and well-adjusted as children raised by heterosexual couples; (b) show the Court that this research has been embranced by every authoritative professional organization devoted to the health and welfare of children." (page 1) "Every authoritative child welfare and child health organization of which amici are aware recognizes, and an overhelming body of scholarly research demonstrates, that children fare just as well in families with same-sex parents as in families with heterosexual parents." (page 10) "Every leading professinal child health and child welfare organization recognizes that sexual orientation has no correlation with the ability to be a good parent and raise healthy and well-adjusted childre. The policy statements issued by these organizations reflect their professional experiences and their expert reviews of the research related to the effects of parenting by gay men and lesbians on childhood development. The statements are striking in their unanimous rejection of the assumption that optimal development requires heterosexual parents. Indeed, amici are unaware of any authoritative child welfare or medical organization that gas taken a contrary view of the research and policy implications." (page 12) "A group of approximately 60 of AAP´s more than 60,00 members opposed APP´s adoption of this policy and in dissent, formed the "American College of Pediatricians" ("ACP") in 2002. This small and marginal group has filed an amicus brief in support of Respondents in keeping with the ACP´s position that "it is inappropriate, potentially hazardous to children, and dangerously irresponsible to change the age-old prohibition on homosexual parenting, whether by adoption, foster care, or by reproductive manipulation." Dr. Joseph Zanga, one of ACP´s charter members, has described the ACP as a group "with Judeo-Christian, traditional values that is open to pediatric medical professionals of all religions who hold true to the group´s core beliefs: that life begins at conception; and that the traditional family unit, headed by an opposite-sex couple, poses far fewer risk factors in the adoption and raising of childre." "This small faction´s views are out of step with the research-based positions of the AAP and other medical and child welfare authorities." (page 15) http://www.state.wv.us/wvsca/briefs/march09/34618SocialWorkers.pdf

Thus, to put it simply, there can not be absolutely any doubts I contributed solely the facts supported by the most credible expert sources in the field describe the views of ACP "in their proper context with respect to established scholarship" as fundamental Misplaced Pages policies reqires. --Destinero (talk) 19:26, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Neither one has posted anything to the talk page. Destinero, there's no question in my mind that the lead should include something along the lines of what you are adding -- but you're going to have to work it out on the talk page, and what you have been adding can't be framed in the voice of Misplaced Pages itself. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:21, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

"This small faction's views are out of step with the overwhelming body of scholarly research-based positions of the American Academy of Pediatrics and other medical and child welfare authorities recognizing that sexual orientation has no correlation with the ability to be a good parent and raise healthy and well-adjusted children."

Please stop acusing me of liking loaded terminology when I showed here that I contributed solely the facts presented by the national and West Virginian organization dedicated to the welfare of children including the largest social work association in the world to the Court, all of which can be everytime checked by everybody. I am expecting your apology since you not able to support by reliable sources how views of ACP are not out of step with the overwhelming body of scholarly research-based positions of the American Academy of Pediatrics and other medical and child welfare authorities recognizing that sexual orientation has no correlation with the ability to be a good parent and raise healthy and well-adjusted children (see LGBT parenting article for details on decades of conclusive and widely-accepted research on the issue) and you are not able to explain how ACP founded in 2002 by 60 charter members are not small faction in comparison with American Academy of Pediatrics with 60,000 members and all other mainstream expert bodies in the field including National Association of Social Workers (150,000 members), American Psychological Association (150,000 members), American Psychiatric Association (40,000 members) etc. --Destinero (talk) 19:48, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Destinero, since this entire discussion ought to be taking place at the article talk page and you still haven't started any discussion there, I doubt you'll get the apology you are seeking. Again, you can probably add something along the lines of what you are after, but go away and do it the right way. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:14, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• Why is this discussed here and not on the article talk page? There's zero discussion about this issue there. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:29, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• Probably because this is indeed a user conduct issue: In my experience, (a) edit-warring to insert a patently inappropriate POV (sourced to a brief in a lawsuit!) into an article, and (b) wall-of-text-ranting about it on noticeboards are the classical symptoms of a soon-to-be-indef-blocked user. Destinero, if you keep this up, that will be you.  Sandstein  21:44, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• I've had my own disagreements with Destinero over cherry-picking (other) affidavits for strong language (which wasn't put in quotes). I find this troublesome, for both NPOV and COPYVIO reasons. Some parts of LGBT parenting, contributed by Destinero, were deleted by an uninvolved admin on copyvio grounds. I don't know if in the dispute at hand here Destinero picked the strong language from the source, or if it was his own. A clarification would help. Tijfo098 (talk) 22:03, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
• In the current dispute, Destinero cited an amicus brief by the National Association of Social Workers to state the postion of the American Academy of Pediatrics. The 50-page linked pdf is non-searchable, so a page number would help. Tijfo098 (talk) 22:10, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

• I improved that by referencing the actual AAP position statement. Destinero and I had a discussion about this before: I think that citing one page position statements is preferable to dozen-of-pages briefs/affidavits. Tijfo098 (talk) 22:55, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
• The language was from the brief, bottom of p. 15. Something like that usually needs to be attributed. Again we had the issue of copy-pasted statements without quotes... Tijfo098 (talk) 01:02, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I concur with Sandstein's analysis here. Destinero's behavior does not look like civil discourse aimed at arriving at a consensus version of an article. It looks like trying, by any means necessary, to force through a particular viewpoint into an article, including stretching the use of sources of marginal appropriateness, coming to ANI rather than the article talk page to contest the edits of others, and most importantly, insisting that others (and not himself) have the burden to justify the removal of his additions. WP:BURDEN makes it clear that the conservative approach must be taken with contentious material. Challenged material is to be left out, and it is the burden of the person wishing to add it to prove, via reliable sources and reasoned discussion with others, that it belongs it. When someone behaves in the opposite manner, it is a red flag that they aren't interested in playing by the rules. The issue of copyright violations and plagiarism is also MUCHO serious, and needs to be addressed as well. --Jayron32 04:02, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to ask that there is an examination of Destinero's recent edits, which - despite concerns raised here and on his talk page - are a direct continuation of his regular behaviour. Not only has he apparently ignored concerns raised over the American College article, he has also made significant undiscussed changes to LGBT parenting and Same-sex marriage that have raised concerns over copyright violations and the use of weasel words. --Ckatz_spy 11:09, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

See my comment on new developments in the ACP article here. Tijfo098 (talk) 11:19, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Removed that from the ACP article, clearly very pointed. I think Destinero has a particular and deep POV on these topics; there is no reason to stop them from editing, but they need to understand why their edits are problematic and often pointed. I think we made movement on this on ther LGBT parenting article. I also have concerns with the consistent use of "not needed" as an edit summary for quite substantive edits. This should be discouraged and instead Destinero should try to use much more explanatory edit summaries to clear up their reasoning --Errant 11:23, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I am satisfied with the current versions of LGBT parenting and ACP article. What a difference to the Ckatz POV version http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=American_College_of_Pediatricians&diff=397489091&oldid=397268492, isn't it? Yes, I care much about these topics, but please, that does not mean I want to push some POV agenda. I understand copyvio and other concerns mentioned and take them seriously and I really appreciate the movement and feedback. The reason why I wrote not needed in edit summary were motivated to reduce duplicate material and focus on the essence of documented facts and adress copyvio and weasel word concerns. For example, I see no reason why include rather esseistic and defendable writing than document clearly current scientific research-based knowledge and expert consensus to let readers to make up their own opinions on the topic. Is it clearer, now? --Destinero (talk) 19:49, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Some context around that diff.

• Destenero compared to final - this is the difference between the same end version of the article and Destinero's changes Ckatz was reverting.
• Destinero compared to Ckatz - the two versions directly compared
• Revision right before this started compared to final
• Destinero's final revision compared to final

Ravensfire (talk) 23:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Ravensfire (talk) 23:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I just want to make it very clear for the record that, Destinero's errant claims of my "POV" version to the contrary, I have no personal involvement in the page as an editor. My involvement in this matter is solely and completely based on responding as an admin to what appears to me to be yet another case of Destinero's problematic editing style, as I have had to do elsewhere in the past. --Ckatz_spy 01:19, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Please see Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-08-28/LGBT parenting, a case that I mediated. (I am no longer mediating any case involving Destinero). I thought that I had successfully explained to Destinero that his interpretation of WP:UNDUE was an extremely odd one (to say the least), and one not shared by the rest of the Misplaced Pages community. He seems to believe that if a claim is attributed to a source written by a respected expert on the topic, it can then be written in Misplaced Pages's voice. I assumed good faith with Destinero by suggesting this was a linguistic issue. However, I believe, since this issue has recurred, Destinero is attempting to game Misplaced Pages policy to his advantage, and has created disputes where none exist with some very experienced Wikipedians who are trying to write articles in an NPOV manner. He replies with walls of "lawyering" text when editors attempt to explain to him his strange, self-exculpatory view of WP:UNDUE.
• Therefore, I suggest that he be subject to a "softban" from inserting text in "Misplaced Pages's voice" on subjects relating to LGBT parenting and parenting in general, of which this is another example. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 21:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC) Corrected --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 21:05, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I hereby propose the following softban. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 21:34, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Destinero (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is banned by community consensus from inserting or removing contentious claims under colour of WP:UNDUE in Misplaced Pages articles relating to parenting and LGBT parenting. He also may not write article prose in these topics in "Misplaced Pages's voice"; that is, he may not insert claims in articles on these topics as unqualified factual statements. Destinero may be briefly blocked by any uninvolved Misplaced Pages administrator in the event of violating this limited topic ban. In the event of repeat violations, he may be banned entirely from editing articles within these topics. See also Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-08-28/LGBT parenting.

• Ban enacted. Editors are free to dispute this limited-behaviour topic ban if they desire. I would have liked comment on this; however, Destinero's record of disruptive editing in these topic areas should not be entertained any longer, since it is wasting editors' and administrators' time. A cost-benefit decision must, therefore, be made. The ban will be noted in the appropriate venues. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 00:18, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Somebody uninvolved (=not me) close this or mark it "resolved" or something, please? Dr.K., the user who placed the request, asked for that to be done ages ago, see bottom of thread. I suggest collapsing it, too. Keep ANI tidy! Bishonen | talk 22:39, 19 November 2010 (UTC).

I would like to request a page ban for Nazar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) due to long term edit-warring against literally everybody else at the articles of Prahlad Jani and Inedia. Nazar despite long conversations about OR and SYNTH just seems to not get the point thus wasting a lot of other editors' time which could be spent much better elsewhere. This massive effort has included multiple reports at RSN, ORN multiple RFCs and ANI reports including a recent WQA alert against me. At that WQA alert I was advised to bring the matter forward to this board. After some initial hesitation I did finally decide to bring it here. Thank you for your consideration.

Here is a sample of Nazar's long-term edit-warring at Prahlad Jani.

1. 17:52, 14 June 2010 Escape Orbit (talk | contribs)(→Reaction of Critics and Supporters: Removed paragraph of original research that analyses the cite provided rather than conveying what it says)
2. 05:15, 15 June 2010Nazar (talk | contribs)(→Reaction of Critics and Supporters: - restore strict info about video materials, remove POV, no personal analysis)
3. Revision as of 14:12, 15 June 2010 (edit)Escape Orbit (talk | contribs) (→Reaction of Critics and Supporters: This analysis is not IN the cite provided, but instead is OF the cite provided. That makes it original research which is not permitted in Misplaced Pages)
4. 15:21, 15 June 2010 Nazar (talk | contribs) (16,818 bytes) (restore as per WP:FILMPLOT, please discuss on talk page before blanking...) (undo) Here s/he accuses user Escape Orbit of blanking.
5. 00:41, 16 June 2010 Dr.K. (talk | contribs) m (15,744 bytes) (→Reactions: I agree with Esxape Orbit that this is WP:OR. Also FILMPLOT applies to movies. This is not a movie, at least not yet) (undo)
6. 09:54, 4 August 2010 Nazar (talk | contribs) (13,907 bytes) (→Reactions: - restore the info per consensus) (undo) The claimed "consensus" was by a single IP which was probably trolling, while all other editors disapproved of this edit. The relevant diff is: Revision as of 09:29, 4 August 2010 (edit) (undo)Nazar (talk | contribs) (→Request for comment: - agree, restoring...). It is also worth noting that Nazar waited three weeks for this reversion.
7. McGeddon (talk | contribs) (12,052 bytes) Revision as of 10:15, 4 August 2010 (Reverted 1 edit by Nazar; Rv unambiguous WP:OR - no consensus for including an editor's personal "closer examination of the video montage". (TW)) (undo)
8. 12:58, 5 August 2010 Nazar (talk | contribs) (14,365 bytes) (→Reactions: - reconstruct, no OR now, I hope.)
9. 13:11, 5 August 2010 Dr.K. (talk | contribs) m (14,264 bytes) (Removed synthetic observation.) (undo)
10. 16:45, 5 August 2010 Nazar (talk | contribs) (14,960 bytes) (Undid revision 377330681 by Dr.K. (talk) + improve)
11. (Reverted good faith edits by Nazar; We have an RFC going and a report on WP:ORN Surely edit-warring to add this synthesis can wait? . (TW)) (undo)
12. Revision as of 12:33, 25 August 2010 (edit) (undo) Dr.K. (talk | contribs) m (Too much synthesis. Restoring version by MiRroar (talk | contribs) at 12:02, 25 August 2010)
13. 12:52, 25 August 2010 Nazar (talk | contribs) (16,081 bytes) (Undid revision 380941035 by Dr.K. (talk) - please stop vandalizing the article.) Here s/he accuses me of vandalism.
14. 21:53, 1 October 2010 Johnuniq (talk | contribs) (10,431 bytes) (rv edits by Jumbo108: no useful information available yet; see Talk:Prahlad Jani#Austrian documentary) (undo) This edit is provided as reference. Article stands at 10,431 bytes due to a massive cleanup effort by user:MiRroar. In the next edit Nazar restores massively all the material removed by editor MirRoar during a cleanup.
15. 08:00, 13 October 2010 Nazar (talk | contribs) (19,214 bytes) (→Investigations: - update refs to exclude non reliable sources. restore official press release info.) (undo) Nazar restores massively all the material removed by editor MirRoar during a cleanup. Article now almost doubled in size (19,214 bytes) due to reintroduction of edited-out material.
16. 09:22, 13 October 2010 Nuujinn (talk | contribs) (10,431 bytes) (Reverted to revision 388203785 by Johnuniq; restored cleaner version, we need to talk about these edits. (TW)) (undo)
17. 09:28, 13 October 2010 Nazar (talk | contribs) (19,936 bytes) (Undid revision 390493189 by Nuujinn (talk) - remove questionable youtube ref, restore rest, as based on acceptable refs) (undo)
18. 10:46, 13 October 2010 McGeddon (talk | contribs) (10,431 bytes) (rv per talk - Nazar's edits appear to be the blanket reintroduction of inadequately-sourced material that was cleaned out last month) (undo)
19. 12:05, 13 October 2010 Nazar (talk | contribs) (19,936 bytes) (Undid revision 390506280 by McGeddon (talk) - please don't remove official referenced information. see talk. thanks.) (undo)
20. 11:51, 15 November 2010 Nazar (talk | contribs) (12,747 bytes) (→Investigations: - clarified who made the announcement) (undo) In this one s/he uses a misleading edit summary and removes maintence tags for OR and SYNTH. Dr.K.  04:28, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

• Some background (I am involved in this dispute): The issue concerns Prahlad Jani, who has lived without food and water since 1940. Jani's powers have been investigated by an institute, and there is an enthusiastic supporting doctor (see this page on the doctor's website for text like "Can you imagine a human being staying alive & doing all routine activities even at age of 70, just by Sungazing – i.e – Surviving on cosmic – Solar energy"). Media reports repeat the findings, and Nazar can use all this to add tidbits to the article to suggest there is some scientific basis for Jani's claims. I have tried to argue that WP:PARITY means that sources like this should be permitted to refute obvious nonsense, but WP:IRS rules that out (see this RSN discussion). The most recent incident was when Nazar claimed a wikiquette breach (see WP:Wikiquette alerts#Dr.K.), where two uninvolved editors suggested a topic/page ban would be appropriate. I'm hoping for suggestions on how to maintain balance at Prahlad Jani and Inedia because policies that I've seen are currently allowing nonsense in these articles, nonsense that has to be cleaned out every couple of weeks with no long term resolution. Johnuniq (talk) 06:42, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
• The current version of the page looks pretty neutral to me. It speaks of facts, findings, and criticisms of said findings. Furthermore, it is decently sourced. I'm gonna say you need to hash out on the talk page what should go in the article and what shouldn't. Work on a mutually agreeable solution. Include some of the claims and some of the criticisms of said claims. Be sure to provide reliable sources for this in accordance with WP:SOURCE. Edit warring, however, will lead to blocks for all parties involved. Alternatively, the article could be fully-protected in order to force everyone to the talk page, but I don't think any of you want that. N419BH 07:09, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
  • A closer look at the history indicates to me that Dr. K. may want to read WP:BOOMERANG. N419BH 07:19, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
    • I really don't think that have to read BOOMERANG before I report this months-long, SYNTH-fuelled, long-term edit-warring by one person against six other editors, except if BOOMERANG applies to a centipede. Because in addition to my two feet we have another 10 for the other five editors who tried to stem this OR avalanche. Dr.K.  12:18, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I had never heard of this article or this editor before seeing the Wikiquette alert in question. Then I read the article talkpage, and found I can muster no understanding of N419BH's strange hints. Everybody is already on the talkpage; that talkpage is a monster, a monument to the way one editor can waste everybody's time. Please see Nazar's Wikiquette alert against Dr.K. where he claims everybody ought to apologise to him, including the neutral editors (me and the polite Looie496) who respond to the alert. The whole thread at WQA is telling. But it's on the long side, so I offer here a potted version of my own comment there:

I can fully understand the irritation sometimes expressed by the other editors towards Nazar, who indefatigably argues his points, big and little, word by word, against consensus, with great stubbornness and much repetition. Such editing wastes other people's time woefully and stops the creation of an encyclopedia in its tracks; you never get anywhere. I believe a page ban of Nazar on this article and similar subjects, broadly construed and including talk pages, is becoming necessary. Either that or a block for long edit-warring. I've considered an RFC/U, but those are only useful with editors who are somewhat prepared to take community criticism on board. Nazars resentment and conviction that he's right and everybody else out to get him seems to militate against the hopes for a helpful RFC/U — and everybody is already tired. It's time the other editors at Prahlad Jani got a chance to work on something more constructive than fighting a rearguard action against the story of the man who has eaten nothing for seventy years. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. The timewasting aspect of all this struck me forcibly when I saw Nazar declare on the talkpage that he saw editing Prahlad Jani as a bit of a joke:

I also don't really care much about the changes. It's more a game for me. It's fun to play with you skeptic guys and see how you react to ideas which are out of your conventional understanding. In the process of this game I also hope and try to improve Misplaced Pages, but that is a secondary priority for me personally, so, even if all my edits are deleted, that's really not a very big problem ;) -- Nazar 11:52, 16 October 2010 (UTC).<br

That post (from a month ago) is discouraging to see. For is Nazar's game fun for anybody else? I doubt that. Is it helpful for Misplaced Pages? Oh, dear, no. Bishonen | talk 08:53, 18 November 2010 (UTC).

(Nazar, could you please not post in the middle of my post (again)? It really is confusing for other people. I'm moving it down again. It's right below. Bishonen | talk 12:45, 18 November 2010 (UTC).)

• I think it's more confusing if you move my posts without proper indentation (like you did in WQA) from the place, where I put them to be relevant to my cited words. But whatever, please have it the way you like. Thanks. -- Nazar (talk) 12:56, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

  It's not 'have it the way you like', it is an accepted norm of this site not to post in the middle of someone else's post. As you have been informed. pablo 13:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

  Ok. Thanks. But I was posting relevant to my own post, which was cited, therefore I posted below my own words (which were cited). Sorry if this was wrong, but this was my logic. -- Nazar (talk) 13:34, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's my reply from WQA to the above passage, thanks. -- "I'd like to comment on that, to avoid misunderstanding. It's just my personal attitude, which, I suppose, is useful in cases when lots of my work invested into an article is removed because of some reasons (valid, or invalid). I believe it's more constructive to see it as a game, rather than make a tragedy out of the difficulties experienced. This 'playing' attitude also proves more productive in many cases, like children find it easier to learn new things and overcome emotional stress when they 'play' with the subject, rather than take it deadly seriously. This attitude is not intended to be a sign of disrespect towards other editors, or their work. Thanks." -- Nazar (talk) 10:33, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

• A page ban seems like a good start. Obvious troll is ... what's the word again? pablo 10:25, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for this ANI. I think it'll be a good test and an opportunity to review their past actions for all of the involved parties. I don't claim that all of my previous edits were perfect, but I did my best to bring in new referenced information and ensure the neutrality of its rendering in the article. I respect the efforts of the opposing party to cut off the pieces which are not in accordance with the current Wiki Policies, as well as to represent a skeptic and critical view of the case, which is necessary too, of course.

I'd like to mention that I have no major problems with the current version of the article, and don't really see what more could be added based on the currently available references. However, it may be seen from the editing pattern of my opponents, that none of them originally cared to introduce new references or expose the case in a more accurate and versatile way. It was mostly me who provided the references and attempted to build the article, as well as it was me who started it and filled it with information. My opponents usually were the ones to cut off and remove, as well as critically edit the pieces they found not appropriate, for which I am thankful to them in many cases (although, I also think they might have overdone it in some instances). Since the case is an ongoing study, I'm concerned that if the page ban they request succeeds, then only one of the parties, namely the skeptic one, remains entitled to edit the article, or rather not to edit it and not to add the new information, which may become available as the research progresses.

Regarding the possible offenses other editor might have taken during our disputes, I'd like to apologize for these, as we've had many emotional points, and I'm sorry to say I wasn't always able to maintain a perfectly neutral and balanced attitude. Thanks everyone. -- Nazar (talk) 10:33, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

• I have not been involved here beyond a couple edits to Inedia two years ago, but I should be considered WP:INVOLVED. Dr. K (talk · contribs) provides a fair summary of the relevant edit and talk histories. I believe that Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary sanctions would be applicable here. - 2/0 (cont.) 10:52, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm also sorry my current time limits (it's currently office hours in my time zone) do not allow me to examine in detail the diffs provided by Dr.K., and since they are mostly pretty outdated and represent issues which had already been solved and discussed in much detail before, I don't see much sense in going into these old arguments again. But, as far as I remember the case, the edits of my opponents have not always been accurate and based on neutral rendering of available referenced information. Also, my opponents were reluctant to revert their own edits themselves and usually used the tactics of ignoring the points I raised, even if proved wrong in discussion. But again, I don't see any points which need more attention and further arguments at this moment. Thanks. -- Nazar (talk) 10:54, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I've managed to briefly review the first 10 diffs provided by Dr.K.. They are all related to the subject of inclusion of a neutral description of Sanal Edamaruku's criticism of the case, including my attempts to provide information about the video plot and subtitles, which were used as an argument in that criticism. That issue has been discussed in much detail on RSN, NOR and article discussion page. It's been closed since over 3 months now and all my subsequent edits were fully in compliance with achieved consensus on that issue. I don't think my opponents would be able to provide any diff to prove the opposite. Thanks. -- Nazar (talk) 11:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok. I've reviewed all the 20 diffs provided by Dr.K.. I don't see anything bannable in them. 11 or 12 of them are about the video issue I mentioned above, which had been closed very long ago. There's one major update I made after MiRroar's edits. I'm sorry if this update was too massive, but MiRroar's changes were very inaccurate and did not correspond to the referenced sources. I think we've sorted out the issues raised in that update long ago too. At least over a month ago, I guess. I have no problems with the points raised there at this moment. Thanks. -- Nazar (talk) 12:05, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd also like to add that I'm not very happy about Dr.K.'s attitude towards me and my edits. I wouldn't like to repeat offenses I suffered from him and enumerate again the points where he was inappropriately aggressive towards me. I don't have a problem with that at this moment either and would not like to request any sanctions against Dr.K., though I would be pleased if he reconsidered his attitude and his position towards me. I only think it's relevant to say in the context of this dispute that the edit-warring which I'm being accused of can be attributed to Dr.K.'s actions in the same, if not greater degree. No offense though. I believe it's a part of the game ("game" here not meant as 'just for fun', but the serious editing process) we play here, and we have to be ready to spend our time for sorting out such issues. -- Nazar (talk) 12:31, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

If this ANI is Dr.K.'s revenge for my WQA request regarding his use of the word "hectoring" No.2 to describe my polite notifications, then I'd like to remind that I addressed WQA for mild non imperative mediation and as a first test of how that noticeboard works. I explicitly stated there that no administrative actions against Dr.K. are requested. I'm sorry if that was taken as an offense, but the repetitive use of "hectoring" No.1 to describe my messages does not make me very happy. -- Nazar (talk) 12:52, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

You raised the same points at WQA and you were thoroughly rebuffed. Now you repeat them here as if they have a better chance to stick. They do not. Until you own up to your actions noone is responsible for your edit-warring except you and you are liable to repeat the same pattern of behaviour that brought you here. The list of reversions I added above shows you edit war against multiple editors and not only me. Stop blaming the victim. You are talking about revenge for me bringing you here. I don't think that you read my initial post carefully where I mentioned I was reluctant to do it. But three respected admins Jehochman, Elen of the Roads and Bishonen gave me a strong hint to do it. I agreed. Please WP:AGF at last. Dr.K.  13:10, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but regardless of my own faults I don't think that "hectoring" is an appropriate word in civilized discourse. While I do admit my actions were not always perfect, I consider Dr.K.'s accusations excessive and overly aggressive, trying to negatively interpret my attempts to improve the article in question over a very long periof of time. They are also outdated, as the issues to which the diffs were related had been solved long ago, and I've taken into account the remarks about my own failures at that time. Bringing them up again now after I just briefly mentioned that I'm not happy about the use of the word "hectoring" seems more like an attempted revenge, than a constructive work on the article content. Thanks. -- Nazar (talk) 13:14, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I repeat my reply to you from WQA:

In the link you provided you mentioned: == Skeptic SYNTH == Please kindly avoid pushing skeptic SYNTH into Prahlad Jani article. Your last edits removed reliably referenced factual information. Thanks. -- Nazar (talk) 13:38, 15 November 2010 (UTC) Your tone in telling me to avoid pushing skeptic SYNTH is reprehensible. Using the verb "push" against other editors is demeaning and incivil. I proved you wrong on the article talkpage and McGeddon agreed with me. It was a clear case of SYNTH on your part, yet you chose to come to my talkpage and accuse me of "pushing skeptic SYNTH", but you did not come to the article talk page to reply to my arguments and McGeddon's. I call this harassment. What is "Skeptic SYNTH" anyway? The only SYNTH added in the article is by you and it keeps getting removed by many other editors. If I need any mediation is by someone to save me from your personal attacks and innuendo.Dr.K.  13:19, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, you may follow the hint of the mentioned users, if more baseless edit warring is experienced in future, but it's probably not very wise to follow it, when all the issues have been settled and there was no edit warring for extended period of time. I'm also not seeing the diffs in your request which were not within the limits of acceptable dispute, although a bit lengthy and stubborn at times. -- Nazar (talk) 13:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Regarding your logic that my message to your page was related to the points you discussed on the article talk page saying : I proved you wrong on the article talkpage and McGeddon agreed with me, I'm sorry but you're likely intentionally misleading the readers here. Your message on the talk page came almost 2 hours later after my notification to your talk page, and it was related to totally different edits. -- Nazar (talk) 13:26, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

My message on your talk page was related to this edit you made. Thanks. Please also see the timing of the messages. -- Nazar (talk) 13:30, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)x2I'm sorry but you're likely intentionally misleading the readers here. shows your clearly bad faith. Your message on my talk did not specify which edit you were referring to. As far as I remember that was the only edit I reverted. I don't have time now. I have to go offline. But anyway your SYNTH is so massive who really cares if it was one SYNTH edit or the other. But I will come back to your accusation later. Dr.K.  13:33, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

"But anyway your SYNTH is so massive who really cares if it was one SYNTH edit or the other." -- can you please provide the diffs showing this "massive SYNTH"? I'm sorry, I did not mean to be of bad faith, therefore I used the word "likely". If it was not your attempt to mislead the readers, then please accept my apologies. My message on your talk page page came very clearly after your removals of reliably referenced information, which removals were promoting a one-sided exposure of the case. Later on other editors agreed to include the information I referred to to uphold the neutrality of the rendering. Nevertheless, you keep messing up the issue now in this massive attempt to accuse me of the things I did not do, confusing the readers with misleading cross-linking to passages which were related to completely different points and were handled differently. That is one of the things in Dr.K.'s behavior which causes a lot of stress for me, and which is also a clear cause of massive edit-war required to clarify the issues he occasionally messes up. I'm very sorry to say this, but this behaviour, whether made in good faith or in bad faith, is seen as rather aggressive from my point of view, and I'd be happy to receive at least a mild apology for that. I have to spend a lot of time and go through A LOT of stress and humiliation to prove simple, clear, and valid points, and then at the end all I get is "who really cares" from my opponent. This is not Civil, at least in my understanding. -- Nazar (talk) 13:46, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

It's probably noteworthy to say that also the previous time Dr.K. used the word "hectoring" No.1 to describe my messages, he tried to mislead the administrator who was involved into the dispute by manipulating the timings of the messages and trying to show the sequence of events in a twisted way, thus distorting the facts and demanding an administrative action towards me for things I did not do. Maybe this had been done in good faith too, but here it happens for the 2nd time in the circumstances very similar to attempted revenge on a particular user. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, just presenting the facts... And I'm just wondering, because I had to spend a few hours of my office time to untangle this confusion at least a bit, who's wasting who's time here? And what would have happened if I just wasn't there to dig up those discrepancies in timings and show how Dr.K. manipulates the situation? Would it just go unnoticed, or maybe I'd get a straight ban for his baseless (but skillfully mustered and presented) accusations? Thanks. -- Nazar (talk) 14:14, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I mean, again, facing no unsolved article related issues at the present moment (and it cost me really lots of time and nerve to deal with confusion and incompetence of skeptics in that article, but that is OK), do I really have to spend hours of my office time for rebuttal of these highly aggressive, revengeful twisted accusations by Dr.K. presented in this ANI? Don't you think that a page ban for him would be more appropriate (though I'm really not requesting it)? -- Nazar (talk) 14:22, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

• Request that both Nazar and Dr.K. leave this alone for a while until some admins have a chance to evaluate and comment. pablo 14:44, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
  • <Sigh of relief>. Happy to oblige Pablo. Let the facts speak for themselves. Take care and thank you. Dr.K.  15:53, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I know that reading through all of the above is painful, but it would be helpful to get some additional feedback on this issue. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:56, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Painful is right..if this section is anything akin to the what's going on at the article...I say a 2 week page ban is in order for Nazar...at a minimum.--MONGO 23:22, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, there have been moments:

• Another discussion on RS/N
• A discussion at OR/N
• A discussion on RS/N
• This section is pretty typical for the talk page itself.

I'm not sure what an appropriate solution would be, and at this point, would just welcome any suggestions or comments. I will say that in my opinion Nazar has some interesting views on how what sources are reliable and how to apply the no original research policy. --Nuujinn (talk) 01:01, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Dr. K., for the WP:BOOMERANG comment. Your list of links was WP:TLDR for me and as such I simply looked at the page history for the article to get an idea of what was going on. I also hardly ever look at diffs posted to ANI because they often show the worst of an editor and usually do not provide a neutral overall picture of what is going on. Nazar has made it pretty clear with his posts on this page what's going on; the comment about him seeing it as a game is most revealing. I don't know however if a topic ban is going to solve the problem. Nazar's apparrent refusal to respect consensus may be grounds for a simpler solution if it is determined to be disruptive. An admin however will have to make that determination. N419BH 03:37, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Don't mention it N419BH, no need to apologise at all. As I hope you may have guessed from the tone of my previous reply to you, your BOOMERANG comment did not bother me at all. I took it as a good faith attempt at highlighting the pitfalls of any ANI report for those brave enough to attempt it. I agree with you about the diffs. I too don't get to open too many of these when I see them. I find the task tedious and time consuming, especially when the internet connection doesn't cooperate. I tried to make my links a bit more descriptive than mere "diffs" but your TLDR comment covered that, so I guess I failed. I also tried to highlight the most salient examples as best I could through those diffs. Anyway, concerning the rest of your comments this has been a long and difficult haul. It shouldn't have been that way if more admin attention were paid at some critical points and a few blocks for disruption and WP:TEND were effected but these are the mysteries of admining for you. Hopefully we'll get some fresh perspective and solutions out of this latest foray at ANI but judging from the activity of the other threads this one sure looks quite slow by comparison. But who can tell. Take care. Dr.K.  04:42, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it does appear this thread is fairly quiet. I've been involved in a content dispute myself over at 2010 Polish Air Force TU-154 crash, see the talk page for the way I solved that problem. Might be a method to try. Chances are if no admins have responded to this thread yet they don't see anything actionable. At heart this is a content dispute and must be hashed out as such. I don't see any violation of WP:3RR or other issues. There doesn't appear to be consensus for a topic ban. My advice would be continue to work toward a compromise on the talk page. If a full-on edit war breaks out, bring it here or request page protection. I've got the article on my watchlist and will be keeping an eye on it. Take care and good luck! N419BH 05:07, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion, blatant WP:OR and SYNTH, especially if it is against consensus and fuelled by incessant, long-term edit-warring, does not qualify as a content dispute. Because there can be no dispute as to what constitutes blatant OR and SYNTH. This is a case of SYNTH 101 and OR 101. But I will not belabour the point. Thank you for the TU-154 suggestion. I'll have a look. As far as RFPP, I have tried it at Prahlad Jani without too much success. But recently, over the past few weeks, user Looie496, an admin, has been instrumental in preventing old-style edit wars and this has helped in keeping some semblance of peace at these two articles. The involvement of Bishonen and her astute observations have clarified the issues and increased the visibility of the problems faced at the articles. I think that today we are in a much better place than we ever were during this conflict. Thanks again and all the best. Dr.K.  05:53, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to thank N419BH for a fairly neutral and balanced approach to this issue. I'm sorry again for some of the more emotional points above, I was rather stressed yesterday, as I invested a lot of work into the mentioned article (actually it was at larger part me who built it), and now facing a page ban would be just utterly unfair. I'd like to repeat that at the present moment I do not have any major problems with that article and really don't have any ideas as to what could be added or further disputed about it. I was always doing my best to fight for neutral exposure of relevant points. I might not be happy about some of these points being not exposed fully enough because of limitations of video descriptions in Misplaced Pages, or some other Policies, but well, I do accept the policies currently in force and I don't think I can be accused of ignoring the achieved consensus on any of the major disputed points we had in the past. That is true as well about the use of sources in the mentioned article, though personally I might disagree with the way policies were applied, but I respected the consensus reached and never tried to edit against it. I hope I'll be able to come back to this article after some time (maybe months, maybe years) when more reliable sources and stronger evidence is available. On the other hand (this if for my opponents to consider), I also do recognize an option that further evidence may reveal the fraudulent nature of Jani's claims, and I'll be happy to include the respective reliably sourced material into the article as well. Thanks so far. -- Nazar (talk) 10:08, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Even though I do not agree with Nazar's characterisation of the editors disagreeing with him/her as "opponents" instead of say "fellow-editors", his/her latest statement holds enough promise for the future that I do not, in good faith, believe any longer that there is danger of continued edit-warring at the articles. Therefore I ask that an admin marks this as resolved and close the thread. In closing I wish to thank all the parties involved in this thread for their valuable input. Dr.K.  16:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm rarely edit on wikipedia and just when I went ahead and actually did some work. I get a great response on my talk page that is quite an inflmmatory personal attack. The editor in question is supposedbly seasoned and but did not even want to discuss anything and just kept pushing unilateral POV's before responding to my attempt to talk to him with blaring attack. I don't even want to care about wikipedia anymore. The POV pushers are too much and the people are simply too mean and assume whatever they want. I don't know what posting here does but here's hoping that someone notices what kind of an editor Dr. Blofeld is and taken some action against him. Personal attack happened on my talk page. User_talk:Pal2002 More nationally-aimed personal attacks and false assumptions on this page. User_talk:Lerdthenerd No response on the article's talk page where I tried to start a dialogue. Pal2002 (talk) 18:27, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The diff in question is here. TNXMan 18:29, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The comment I've already made to the three of you still applies. Blofeld, be politer to new users; Pal2002, don't act like you're the owner of an article and throw hissy-fits when someone else dares to change it. – iridescent 18:29, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

<edit conflict>Blofeld makes a clear threat of violence in that edit. "I'd knock your teeth out if you in this room right now" is completely unacceptable. Regardless of the circumstances, is the appropriate response really "be politer"? --Jezebel'sPonyo 18:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Tendentious civil POV pushing tends to bring the worst out of people. I'm not saying that is necessarily the case here, but there might be more to the picture than what meets the eye here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:51, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm certain that there is more than meets the eye (hence my caveat "regardless of the circumstances"), but a veteran editor threatening to knock another editor's teeth out is just...wow. --Jezebel'sPonyo 18:57, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't really care what else Blodfeld adds as long as he doesn't clutter the article with way too muchd detail or push his POV again and again as in the removal of the census table. You should read the article before I forced Blofeld to condense it. 70% of it WAS on random buildings. All whatever problem he's got with my point, it does not warrant his blaring personal attack. Pal2002 (talk) 18:35, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

No—neither you nor he gets to set conditions on what the article says. Since Blofeld has a long history in writing reasonable-quality articles on Asian cities, frankly I trust his judgement. – iridescent 18:37, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Look. I know you really like this guy, but go back and look at the state of the article. If you think 70% of the article on New York City should be on its skyline and buildings. More power to you. Pal2002 (talk) 18:40, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's hoping that someone notices what kind of an editor Dr. Blofeld is and taken some action against him. Amen to that. Without me there would be no WP:Tibet or without myself and Nvvchar you would not have the gift of good articles on Tibet like Sera Monastery, expansions to Norbulingka, articles on Lhasa Gonggar Airport and so on... NOt to mention articles like Chamba, Himachal Pradesh, Kathmandu, Thimphu all of which are wee balanced and informative articles on Asian cities which I was gradually working on with Lhasa to get up to a similar status. I'm not sure what he is trying to achieve. Ban me so I can't improve Tibet articles? Not even going to waste me breath here. The article history of Lhasa and the original message on my ralk page explains my reaction. If not see my comments on the situation at User talk:SarekOfVulcan. I will say no more. Grill me if you like but the fact is this trouble maker removed the entirety of Architecture of Lhasa form the article without warranty and then had the cheek to talk to me as if I'm a lousy contributor see his original malicious message left on my talk page. Time waster. Most people who removed sourced content like that without even discussing it from Tibet articles are PRC pov pushers. CHeck the history of the Tibet article. I've alreayd apologised for being civil but I will only apologise to Pal2002 once he stops tring to make the situation worse and works in good faith to improve the article.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:36, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

"I've alreayd apologised for being civil but I will only apologise to Pal2002 once he stops tring to make the situation worse". I'm sorry myself that I just cannot find any real apologies anywhere. I hear "it happens on wikipedia" and that you still think I'm a PRC POV pusher and a "time waster" and I think you probably want to punch my teeth out even more foor coming here if I read that statement right. Pal2002 (talk) 19:12, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

You're not going to get an apology just because you or someone else demands one. What is clear is that Blofield has appreciated that he overreacted, and he's not going to continue saying he wants to punch your teeth out because it is so frustrating to work with you. Notice how Blofield isn't demanding an apology; he simply wants you to cut this drama and work in good faith to improve the article. That you've repeatedly acted in a manner that seems to want to inflame matters rather than resolve them is a problem. If you genuinely want to resolve them, please take the advice you've been given below; back away from the carcass and move on. You are not accomplishing anything useful at this venue; anything. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:20, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

And of course Dr. Blofeld again completely avoids to discuss why he personally attacked me or his POV's I keep trying to point out. I would also like to point out this isn't the 1st time Dr. Blofeld has commited personal attacks. His block log indicates that he's already been blocked twice for personal attacks. And yet he's here again making more of them. Pal2002 (talk) 18:38, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Look dude. Maybe you are a very old man who has false teeth or none at all. Frankly my dear I don't give a damn. It was a figure of speech for "how dare you speak to me like that". No it is not civil or accpetable but neither is it for you to talk to me like that given what I've done for Tibet on wikipedia. If you genuinely want to improve the Lhasa and are not the usual People's Republic of China POV pusher we have on here trying to deny all existence of Tibetan heritage which I had initially (maybe wrongly) passed you off as given your peculiar edits which stripped the article of its heritage I would be happy to work with you. But coming here to get me blocked or banned?? makes it look as if you are intentionally causing trouble and are miffed because your edits were reverted.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:26, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Its hard to piece together the timeline between snarky edit summaries and edits on various people's talkpages. Where in the timeline of edits did you tell him things looked 'terrible'? Is that before or after he got mad? Syrthiss (talk) 18:44, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Looks very much like a content dispute and the only thing I could think to add to Iridescent's reply would be consider taking in a third opinion or request for comment to resolve those disputes that can't be handled civilly on the talk page. Being a prolific contributor is not a reason to drop threats and insults on someone's talk page, and will just get you facing increasing blocks for incivility until you can't edit anymore. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:51, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

His message was: "Your detailed additions to the Lhasa city article are NOT improving the article. In fact, it turned an okay article into a mess where 70% of the article is dedicated to buildings. It is an article on the city in general and does not need history on every building in it or even a carpet factory. It is far better to create new articles and LINK those to the city article than adding all the clutter to the city article. An example of what a city article should read like is New York City. Oh and also, please do not add empty headings if you have nothing to say under it. It just looks terrible."

The expand tags and "empty" sections were due to be expanded by myself in the next week and add content related to relgion in Lhasa, the mosque it has, sports, healthcare etc, content any article on a major city should have. I had only got around to adding alandmarks section which itself needed condensing when I had written the article but had to do now just to keep it half decent. Maybe I overeacted but his tone and edit summaries in the lhasa article really got to me and if you compare his editing history compared to mine. I happened to read several negative messages at the same time this morning and I lost it. I'm sorry but it happens occasionally when I log into wikipedia and encounter it first thing.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:48, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Exactly what my timeline and contribution studies say, so IMO going off the rails isn't great...but when someone tells you your additions to the article were terrible, makes snarky edit summaries, and then on their talkpage essentially are taking credit for your work once they've moved it to a new article I'd say thats pretty justified. Syrthiss (talk) 18:51, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

How did I take the credit? I even responded NOT to take credit for the new article. I'm sorry that I don't know what to put in edit sumamries but here you are saying that justifies him threatening to "knock my teeth out"? Pal2002 (talk) 18:57, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

You made a grand total of 9 edits in your entire history before you started throwing your weight around at Lhasa. I'd say Blofeld's reaction was mild. Give it a rest.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 19:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Here is more assuming. Personally I don't like to edit in my account because of situaions like this. I don't edit that much, but I have done enough IP edits to know my way around wikipedia. I would not have even found this place if I was THAT newb. Please, quote the entire thing and put it inside your talk page if you believe that was mild. (Personally I think judging editors on # of edits is very wrong but that's not the point here.) Pal2002 (talk) 19:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Essentially admitting to sockpuppetry is not your best course of action. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:12, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Trace my IP for all you want. This is the ONLY account I have. I don't login all the time to edit. Show me the rule on wikipedia that you have to login to edit. Pal2002 (talk) 19:14, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

You said that you made enough IP edits to know your way around Misplaced Pages - could you link to the edits you are referring to? Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:28, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

That's a fantastic idea! You first! (sarcasm) What would the point of that be? He's been warned, you've both been warned. Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 19:10, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't even know why there's a debate over content here. Find me even a half-assed "sorry" and I would be more content. But all I got from Dr. Blofeld is even MORE insults and false assumptions on top of the original insult. Pal2002 (talk) 19:17, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

On his talk page he was praised for his "tremendous efforts" at "writing" Architecture in Lhasa by a new page patroller, but the content was ironically what he removed from the article for being a horrible mess and for what he left do NOT messages at me for. And if you actually look at how much research and effort went into writing that information from book etc which John Hill and I have mostly writtwn in the article themselves it was a shock to have somebody with 9 edits editing the article and pseaking to me like that. I agree that the article need condensing in a manner I've now done but why couldn't you have discussed it civilly first? I'd have been happy to work with you on it and flesh out the terrible empty section which do need writing wither way. And I am fully aware that Lhasa is a prefecture level city, I've done years of work on this part of the world. But it covers over 30,000 square kilometres and for the very sake of articles being terribly bloated it is more feasiable to write about the urban centr eof lhasa and then about the wider prfecture. IN due course I will write a nice article for Lhasa Prefecture summarising the counties which I have mostly started and developed myself as well as landmark summarie slike Sera, Ganden Monastery etc which are not in the city itself. I hope eventually to have two GAs on it as Lhasa is probably one of the world cities I most adhere to. I would be extremely surpised if Pal2002 is not a sock puppet. No newbie throws their weight around life this surely...♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:15, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Again, I immediately declined the praise if you will actually notice. I actually already toned down my statement to you, it is nothing close to what you retuend to me. And now, instead even offering a half-assed apology you will now go on to accuse me for being a sockpuppet. If you seriously believe that, have admins trace my IP and do whatever you want. But try and at elast stay on topic. Pal2002 (talk) 19:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Genuinely I would be more overwhelmed if you weren't and were actually an editor who actually genuinely wanted to write a more much resourceful article on Lhasa with me. Such an occurence would be rare but I would welcome it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:28, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

If you had your explanations that you did here on my talk page instead of threatening me on my talk page, this would not have happened. Instead, you come here to insult and accuse me even more. Truthfully, I don't care if you get blocked or not, I just want a real answer and some "justice", whatever that means on wikipedia. You're a prolific editor and probably a great contributor to wikipedia and yet you always seem to resort to personal attacks. (as evidenced by your blocks) If you cared about the trouble, maybe you should tone down your own POV's and stop personally attacking people. Pal2002 (talk) 19:38, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Justice on wikipedia? Mmm maybe you really are a newbie... The admins here (yes there are many of them I actually like and think are crucial to the project, several of them have commented on this post today) mostly do a great job in blocking out vandalism and stopping the truly bad editors but if we truly had justice on here hundreds of our best editors would not have left the project and at this moment would be heartily writing articles for us and pretend policeman (they know who they are) would be getting on with writing an encyclopedia instead of playing the rosy policeman with shiny badge and fake plastic handcuffs and persisting to send warnings to me over seomthing that happened ten hours ago and which I've apolgised for but the reaosn why I reacted is obvious.. I am sorry for my initial message in anger. I really don't know what more I can say.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:46, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

It might help if both of you looked into dispute resolution, cited as many reliable sources as possible, justified edits with referral to policies and guidelines, solicited input from the relevant wikiprojects and overall tried to find the positive aspects of each others' contributions rather than reverting and dropping insults. Dr. Blofeld, a high edit count doesn't mean you get to ignore policies and guidelines (including the ones like CIVIL, CONSENSUS and DR); your experience should make it easier to justify your edits and thus make your point. You could be educating a new editor rather than berating. Pal2002, Dr Blofeld has an impressive edit count, is in the top-10 of all contributors to wikipedia (see WP:WBE); he's someone worth listening to. You may want to scale back the WP:BOLD and present discuss your ideas and intentions on the talk page. I see only one edit to talk:Lhasa and zero references to any relevant policies or guidelines in your edit summaries. "Taste" is generally not considered actionable on wikipedia, you need to work within the existing framework of rules, suggestions and good faith. I'd be irritated too if someone with 1/4500th my edit count started reverting without referencing any of the organizing principles on the site (that would be the policies and guidelines again). WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:50, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually WLU I have already taken the iniative to do so and have invited Pal2002 to help write an article on Lhasa civilly, the ball is in his court. Neither of us should have spoken to each other in that way but a half amicable query about the article on my talk page would have prompted a more than productive response. Not the best way to address a situation.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The reason I'm here is for the personal attack, not a content dispute. (I agree that content disputes should ->article talk page) The major reason for my original conflict has been actually resolved since Blofeld made his sections more concise (although IMO just a bit more would be better). I stand by my initial criticism as harsh as it may have sounded. But Blofeld's attack was definitely unnecessary and provacative.

->WLU: I really don't buy the patronage system has any consequence on wikipedia. In fact, that kind of thinking goes against all that wikipedia stands for, a free encylopedia. Pal2002 (talk) 21:09, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Unnessecary? Yes, probably. Provocative? Er, I'd say that your message was the provocative one. Even the other editor told you to tone it down Pal2002. As for why we are still here and you are still trying to get me blocked when I've made a conscious effort to move this into the talk page for devleoping the article beats me. This is essentially a content dispute. Obliterate the entirety of my hard work from an article with snarky edit summaries in doing so and leave a DO NOT message on my talk page telling my how crap my work prompted a reaction. If you had approached the article and myself more amicably and in good faith we'd be discussing the Lhasa article way forward. Edit count means nothing to me when I reached 100 k is really became irrelevant to me. What matters to be is article content and developing wikipedia to fulfill its potential. I genrally do so with no reward and usually no thanks. Which I accept. But when people who have not created or written a single article on wikipedia,, not even a stub have the audacity which you did to say DO NOT write informative well sourced and researched content to articles like his it really becomes surreal.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:20, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Let's put it this way. I was and still am ready to drop it. I've made my case and that is all. But you again come and inflame it some more. The reason why we're still here is because you're not dropping it and you still think you had every right to say what you said. Pal2002 (talk) 21:24, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Blocked

Someone's now blocked Blofeld for this. As is fairly well known I'm definitely no fan of Blofeld, but that seems a ridiculous overreaction to a one-off incident of minor snappiness. Since he's now not in a position to ask for it, is there any consensus at all for reversing this? I'll get the ball rolling with a support unblock. – iridescent 22:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep blocked - Blocks are preventative, not punitive, so assuming good faith on the part of the blocker, I would say there is a need to prevent disruption. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 22:58, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Seems strange to apply your assumptions of good faith to only one of the parties in this dispute. Malleus Fatuorum 23:01, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec) So, what is this "preventing", Burpelson? And how come "assume good faith" only applies to the person who happens to agree with you? – iridescent 23:02, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Why don't "you" both "ask" the "blocking admin" these "questions" instead of issuing impotent challenges to someone offering a harmless opinion? I'm sure he or she will be quite willing to unblock your special friend who no doubt is as pure as the driven snow. God forbid anyone should ever speak against the great untouchable Misplaced Pages Diva cadre. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 00:13, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Funny how "civility" only goes one way, isn't it? I'd recommend doing your basic background research before you offer half-baked opinions on issues you don't understand, by the way—the mutual animosity between Blofeld and myself is notorious (example). Just because I think he can be a pompous prick doesn't mean I think he warrants being hounded off the project by the Civility Police and a couple of wannabees. – iridescent 00:22, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Can we all please try and calm down, take a wikibreak for a day or 2 and come back relaxed, refreshed and free of bias on ALL parties. Thanks! Signed by Barts1a Suggestions/complements? Complaints? 00:25, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Funny how I give not a fig what you "think", iridescent. Do you actually want him unblocked are are you more interested in grandstanding and posturing at AN/I? I'd recommend approaching those who are in a position to "do something" in this matter, such as the blocking admin, if the former is true. If the latter is true, I'd suggest getting a life. Clearly, anyone who disagrees with "certain people" here is either an "enemy of the people" or an ignorant half-wit. I really don't care if I get blocked for that, I'm sick of the arrogant posturing and condescending bullshit of the same 4 or 5 people, content or no content. Just block me already, for I've committed the grave sin of criticizing the Divas. I'm logging off until next Monday, enjoy your drama fest. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 00:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

it does seem to be for mouthing off he did earlier in the day. At the same time, it was very loud mouthing off - and warning an admin never goes down well. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:08, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd say browbeating anyone like that should warrant the same response. Lacking a good explanation of why Dr. Blofield should be allowed to attack another editor like that, I'd say a 48 hour block is more than fair. Resolute 00:22, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• This block was a ridiculous over-reaction and should be reversed pronto. Malleus Fatuorum 22:59, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

• Meh. He's apparently retired now. Hasn't he done this before? AD 23:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Blofield has too many edits. I support his retirement, until the rest of us catch up with him, in terms of edit count.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 00:26, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support an early unblock. this had all but died down, with an apology for the original outburst already made hours before, and the "browbeating" of SoV long over. He lost his cool, he had already recognized that, and things were winding down. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:12, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

As blocking admin, let me say that I had no clue this thread existed. The block was based on the threat of violence, and the abuse being levelled simply because he was validly warned. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 01:20, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• The block was imposed for comments (which

Response:

I had already apologised for my initial outburst and actually invited this 2002 user to write the lhasa amicably with me. I had moved on to sweeter pastures when Sarek turned up 8 hours after it happened to rub my nose on it and point his moral finger. I responded to him and said surely he has something better to do and then to add further fuel to the fire his friend sheriff turned up also to tick me off. If you check the history of my talk page I was the one harrassed by them 3 times in total and sheriff even provoked me into answering his question on Sarek's talk page when again I had moved on and was writing an article. I gave him an honest reply that I think he should quit playing policeman and write articles and did it in a light hearted fashion which was intended to be humorous. I certainly did not say anything uncivil to them except that I said Sarek tdoes zilch to contribute to wikipedia but runs about on his high horse preaching at people. Again I had moved on writing an article when this block came about which was ridiculous givne that I had not only apologised to 2002 hours ago, even if I had every right to be angry with him. I had genuinely offered Sarek of Vulcan to constructively edit an article with me and was actually writing an article, not harassing people when I was blocked. I was led to Sarek's talk page provoked three times. The block was completely unwarranted and poorly timed. I even pout up a wiki break banner this morning to acknolwedge that I needed to cool off. I cooled off lunch time but later Sarek caused unnecessary conflict when he should just mind his own business. There really has to come a time and a place when adminstrators actually investigate "uncivility" and to find that in cases like this they are entirely provoked by other people. That doesn't make it right to threaten to "knock somebody's teeth out but if they actually investigated what happened as at ANI I was justified in being angry. As for me swearing I rarely if ever use very strong profanity considerably milder than the words that often appear on the main page and which I objected to last Sunday. I tend to call people assholes a lot because that is the way they are acting. Look it up in wiktionary for a definition. If you part in hard work to wikipedia and you have it obliterated and then an editors rants on at you about DO NOT write it, somebody you used to consider a friend tells you NOT TO CREATE ARTICLES and DUMP them and somebody places a deletion warning on a vlaid article and you receive thes emessages all at once first thing in the morning when you log in feeling rotten anyway and you try being sweet about it. No it is not acceptable to be uncivil but SERIOUSLY the blocking admins in cases like really do need to why a person flared upand that they have human feelings. If people stopped messing with me and worked with me to write articles absolutely nothing like this would ever occur. This should never happen again. Blocking me is the most pointless thing possible. Is it meant to teach me a lesson? Because nothing can stop me flaring up from time to time if I feel I've been badly treated. Its a natural humane reaction. 99% of the time I am more that civil to people and happen to be one of the most encouraging editors on wikipedia to content contributors and have a great dela of respect for them which I hope is reciprocated. Unfortunately we are surrounded by many negative people who do little to generate content and pretend to govern the site. I've invited Sarek of Vulcan to write n article with positively but is he interested, no, because he will only be negative about everything. We are better off without having these sort of people around. Look what he cuased here last night. Nothing but aggravation and blew it all out of proportion by making snide remars when the situation had alreayd been appeased. For heaven's sake I'm much better than all this. Stay out of my affairs and I'll remain civil, but people have to treat me with some respect otherwise the bad feelings will be returned. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:40, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld blocked

Dr. Blofeld is one of our major contributors and sadly he was blocked and has quit Misplaced Pages can anyone look into this as I am unaware of this.Please he/she is one of the major contributors to Misplaced Pages with nearly 1/30 of the total content.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 00:14, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Read up. AD 00:16, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't see Blofeld getting unblocked in under the 48 hours (or I guess coming back) with this almost holier-than-thou attitude. Blofeld needs to calm down, take a break, have a drink, a nap and then come back with fresh eyes on the whole thing. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 00:20, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

^^ Signed by Barts1a Suggestions/complements? Complaints? 00:22, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Hate to be a prude, but how long has this user been here and still does not know accounts cannot be "deleted"? –MuZemike 00:24, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

They can't be deleted (well, they can, but we don't). They can, however, be 'vanished' if Arbcom decide they want some dirty laundry covered up, though. See anything in Rlevse's contribution history? – iridescent 00:27, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah, the semi-vanish: now at User:Vanished 6551232. Nifty. As for Blofeld, fairly typical. He got hot under his collar, snippy, and failed to kowtow. Users that damage content repeatedly but remain wpcivil carry on.Bali ultimate (talk) 00:39, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I will be as cool as a cucumber until somebody destroys content and acts out of line. When that happens you don't want to get on the side of me. If people did not destroy content and were constructive it would not be typical of me. Rather its typical of the beahviour of others who provoke me to act like that.. I'm a passionate person but that pasison also comes with a price that I can get particularly nasty if disturbed. Just saying.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

If Blofeld wants to play the WP:DIVA card, so be it. But looking at the history of Lhasa, I think the summary-style cleanup work was actually warranted (i.e. Pal2002's movement of content to Architecture in Lhasa), and Blofeld's abusive outburst at Pal2002 for doing that was excessive and wholly inappropriate. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:52, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

No it was not the history of the page that concerned me. It was the way this unexperienced editor left a nasy message on my talk page with a heated tone telling me NOT to write content. Of course Andrew you've never been angry in your lifetime and mouthed off at somebody.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:20, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Can we all please try and calm down, take a wikibreak for a day or 2 and come back relaxed, refreshed and free of bias on ALL parties. Thanks! Signed by Barts1a Suggestions/complements? Complaints? 00:56, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

It would be best to take no action as regards deletes or whatever, at least until the 48 hours have passed. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• A block seem highly appropriate for anyone, no matter how well established a contributor, who would say to another contributor here "I'd knock your teeth out if you in this room right now.". There is never any conceivable justification for this. If it's objected we're blocking a particularly skilled contributor, stopping this sort of language will help get us many more of them: one of the standard reasons experts give for not editing here is our propensity of this sort of thing. DGG ( talk ) 01:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

That's not the case DGG. I was not even officially blocked for "I'd knock your teeth out". I was blocked for apparent "harassement" of Sarek of Vulcan evne though I'd moved on at the time of blocking. The original outburst happened at least 8 hours previously to the block, if I had been blocked immediately afterwards in the morning for that it would have been more justified. At the time of blocking I had not only apologised for the initial outburst and had invited the person who slated me to write the Lhasa article together but I had requested Sarek of Vunclan stop being negative towards me and to write an article, one he had started which I was working on devleoping at the time of the block. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:34, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Can't we just unblock him, he got a tiny bit hot under the collar, I know the encyclopedia is mostly written and we don't need content contributors as much as in the past but he is not a danger to the wikipedia is he? Off2riorob (talk) 01:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Please get a dose of reality swiftly. Ucucha 01:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Why can't we all just let this matter drop? Clearly wikibreaks are needed to clear the sometimes heavy bias on BOTH sides. Signed by Barts1a Suggestions/complements? Complaints? 01:39, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Ucucha, I don't need any reality, especially here. It would be better instead of your attacking comment towards me, if you actually said something about the actual issue. Off2riorob (talk) 01:43, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
    • This has nothing to do with bias, or sides. Threats of violence , even rhetorical ones, require a block to make sure it does not continue. I might be willing to pass over something like this with a warning if it were a unique occurrence , but the editor has previous blocks for NPA. It's time we took this seriously. People who expect to be excused from the ordinary rules of behavior because of their quality as editors are a threat to the growth of the encyclopedia. DGG ( talk ) 01:45, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
      • Not really; there are usually already far too many people who think they have something useful to say on "issues" like this. However, "the encyclopedia is mostly written" is false, and I wouldn't want to let it stand uncorrected. Ucucha 01:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
        • Well its a lot more written than when Blofield got here. All the main articles are totally complete, updates and new creations of obscure subjects, is all there is left. Off2riorob (talk) 01:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
          • I thought that you were writing tongue-in-cheek, and I was about to say the same to Ucucha. But now I'm not so sure. If you're not, then please note that Ucucha is quite right. There's a pernicious idea that we're mostly done, now, that is exemplified by complete baloney such as Misplaced Pages:Concept limit. But we're really not. See Special:Whatlinkshere/Wikipedia:Concept limit for clues. Uncle G (talk) 02:05, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
          • Ok it seems he was joking in fact Yes, these comments ("I know the encyclopedia is mostly written and we don't need content contributors as much as in the past" and "All the main articles are totally complete, updates and new creations of obscure subjects, is all there is left" are the silliest and most ill-informed things I seen said on WP for a long time, but sadly I don't think he is joking. We still have areas with little or no coverage, and thousands of "main articles" that are stubs or starts. Johnbod (talk) 03:44, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
• Considering what he said wasn't an actual threat anyway (Tuberville v Savage), it might have fallen under WP:CIVIL, but IMO a warning should have been enough. If it wasn't, the action was arguably proportionate. However, I know full well that this encyclopedia is barely started, let alone finished. Ask me in 100 years time. Rodhullandemu 01:58, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Parts of my comment were indeed tongue-in-cheek, and thanks for the links, I will try to get my head around concept limits, its a new concept to me and I am a bit dubious about it. Off2riorob (talk) 03:03, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• What this shows is we have a number of administrators on this website who look upon their roles as police officers working for the prosecution trying to secure as many convictions (via blocks) as possible. Gone are the days where we have janitors who will not look for lame excuses to impose (and keep) punitive blocks. I've already noted above why the contribution history shows that there was no threat of any further attacks or violence given that the entire incident was resolved via an apology in the thread above and that content building was happening. Yet, the block is still in place. The policy governing how admins should use their tools is obviously not working, and it seems we should limit the situations in which these tools can be used if admins are not going to show good judgement (first and foremost by fully familiarising themselves with the circumstances). Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:00, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Thankyou for actually examining what happened. I had not only apologised to 2002 and asked for him to constrctively move and discuss the Lhasa article and write it together but had actually alos asked Sarek genuinely to expand one of his articles which I thought he might be interested in. His friend sheriff also left a pointy message which meant I went back to his tlak page again. This editor asked me why my comments were constructive and I told him in what was intended to be light hearted humor that he should hang up his badge and write articles instead. I did not say one uncivil thing to them, except I said Sarek does zilch to generate content and runs around on his high horse judging folk. If I had been blocked yesterday morning immediately after my uncivil comments then it would have at least been jsutified which is why I put up a wiki break tag to acknolwedge i lost my temper and was backing away. I actually did that and cooled off lunch time but I had work to be getting on with with Uruguay. I did just that and had moved on when I had harassed by Sarek. If you had minded his own business it would never have happened, and if I had not been left with a nasty message over Lhasa, Albania and an unwarramted article wanring over a nunnery all at once I'd not have reacted now would I?♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:04, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no policy requiring that an admin check on ANI and AN to see if a threat of violence was under discussion already. Such threats are taken seriously from first instance, and should be removed or stricken by someone if they're retracted and a situation is resolved. Any unretracted legal threat or threat of violence should and usually does trigger an admin block on discovery.

There's a credible argument that someone should unblock now, but the block wasn't bad.

This - like legal threats - is not a subject people should be joking around about. Comments that are perceived as abusive or threatening actively disrupt the community. The user it was directed at took it seriously and came here. That it was intended jokingly is an explanation, but not a defense.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

There is an expectation that an admin will check an editor's contribution history before they do something - precisely to avoid doing something stupid. If an admin does not see red flags when an obviously established contributor engages in this conduct, and that the contributor has made several recent contributions to an ANI discussion titled "Personal attack", then there is a serious problem amongst the so-called basic model of adminning which we needs to be changed. The comments were obviously avoidable, but so was this block; and unless admins are going to look into things properly, I see no reason why we should let this sort of thing continue on what is becoming more of a pattern on ANI rather than a yearly incident. That we have potentially lost a solid contributor as a result of this incident is not something anyone should be proud of, least of all the admin who declined the unblock. The reasons for the unblock have not emerged from something that happened after the block; it's based on things that already happened before the block (and should have been looked into already). Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:16, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

It was a bad block. A blind block, oh is there a thread at ANI I didn't see that. Off2riorob (talk) 02:20, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Don't you realize that that threats of violence are taken as seriously as legal threats? Joking or not you WILL be blocked for them! Signed by Barts1a Suggestions/complements? Complaints? 02:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I will punch your lights out if you keep posting in capitals, is not really severe or serious is it. Off2riorob (talk) 02:26, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Its the same as "give him a slap". It is really not intended violentally, rather an expression of how angry I am with him. If I wanted to be violent I'd have said I'm going to cut off his head of with a machete or something, gouge out his eyes and play tennis with them and then run over it with a bulldozer. That would be violent. I'm not the only one overreacting here...♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

It is serious. Whenever you make a threat of violence towards anyone they will see it as a serious threat regardless of your joking or not joking. Misplaced Pages also takes these as seriously regardless of the level of jokingness. Signed by Barts1a Suggestions/complements? Complaints? 02:29, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

What you're suggesting is out of whack. Everything has a context and a set of circumstances; if admins are not ready to take the time to fully familiarise themselves with it, then even those provisions are going to need to be amended (either to force admins to do so or to reflect the unfortunate reality we have encountered today). What happened here does not become black and white just because a couple of sentences were read as threats of any kind. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Per my unblock decline, I believe that this block is correct. Conduct policies apply equally to all no matter how much good content they have contributed. Threats of violence, even if it is clear that they are unlikely to be realized, severly degrade the collegial and courteous atmosphere we should strive to maintain.  Sandstein  07:30, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Consensus to unblock?

I believe we have a rough consensus towards unblock, but have asked Bwilkins for input or comments, and would like to ask that any other yes/no opinions be focused and clarified here.

As I stated above, I do not feel that the block was bad, but I do feel that the totality of circumstances argue for an early unblock (without delay other than procedural for consensus). I believe that there's no ongoing active threat to prevent. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:53, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Someone should probably mention that YellowMonkey unblocked Dr. Blofeld about a half hour ago... --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:55, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Support, fwiw. StrPby (talk) 04:27, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

And I was just composing an elaborate reason to unblock. Sanity has prevailed. I just vandalized his talk page. :~) Aymatth2 (talk) 03:47, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

See here for a review of this case Count Iblis (talk) 03:49, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

How is it that a dispute between 2 people over the skyline of a Tibetan city can turn so rapidly into a circular firing squad of 15 to 20 senior editors and administrators? --A. B. 04:02, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

That's what happens with bad blocks; they piss the content providers off big time to the detriment of all, something the clueless trigger-happy civility police can't seem to grasp. "oh, look, someone's used a naughty word - let's block them!!! Yah!" --Michael C. Price 04:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

There's that intentional misrepresentation again. He threatened to knock someone's teeth out. Not a naughty word in there. Civility is not now, nor has ever been, about swear words. People who don't like it when their friends get blocked like to pretend that it is, even when the real reason for the block is something different. If people can threaten violence against others with impugnity, how long before the only people left are the threateners, as the good content editors who DON'T stoop to that level are driven away. Again, I want Blofeld to edit, but I also want Blofeld to not threaten to knock people's teeth out. It would be really nice if he could do both. --Jayron32 05:35, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

No, not "intentional misrepresentation" since I was characterising a generic problem. And BTW civility is often about naughty words. It shouldn't be, of course. --Michael C. Price 11:17, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, I woke up early because I could feel the hot breath of ANI in my sleep. A few comments:

• before blocking I had no past experience that I can think of with DrB
• the inappropriate altercation appeared to be in-progress when I issued the block - I saw no de-escalation on the go
• I recognized that DrB is a large scale contributor - but nobody is above basic levels of behvaiour
• we cannot choose to "not block" someone simply because of what they might or might not do (ie withdraw their services). This created a hierarchy that does not exist
• In the end, although I "advertise" that I will do "tough blocks", this was not one of them. In fact, it was based on policy and behaviour, and was intended to prevent additional behaviour. The length was based on past history. Not blocking would have sent the wrong message to others in the project, as would an early unblocking.

(talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:02, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Reply:

Nobody said it did. But i had alreayd apologised for my initial outburst and actually invited this 2002 user to write the lhasa amicably with me. I had moved on to sweeter pastures when Sarek turned up 8 hours after it happened to rub my nose on it and point his moral finger. I responded to him and said surely he has something better to do and then to add further fuel to the fire his friend sheriff turned up also to tick me off. If you check the history of my talk page I was the one harrassed by them 3 times in total and sheriff even provoked me into answering his question on Sarek's talk page when again I had moved on and was writing an article. I gave him an honest reply that I think he should quit playing policeman and write articles and did it in a light hearted fashion which was intended to be humorous. I certainly did not say anything uncivil to them except that I said Sarek tdoes zilch to contribute to wikipedia but runs about on his high horse preaching at people. Again I had moved on writing an article when this block came about which was ridiculous givne that I had not only apologised to 2002 hours ago, even if I had every right to be angry with him. I had genuinely offered Sarek of Vulcan to constructively edit an article with me and was actually writing an article, not harassing people when I was blocked. I was led to Sarek's talk page provoked three times. The block was completely unwarranted and poorly timed. I even pout up a wiki break banner this morning to acknolwedge that I needed to cool off. I cooled off lunch time but later Sarek caused unnecessary conflict when he should just mind his own business. There really has to come a time and a place when adminstrators actually investigate "uncivility" and to find that in cases like this they are entirely provoked by other people. That doesn't make it right to threaten to "knock somebody's teeth out but if they actually investigated what happened as at ANI I was justified in being angry. As for me swearing I rarely if ever use very strong profanity considerably milder than the words that often appear on the main page and which I objected to last Sunday. I tend to call people assholes a lot because that is the way they are acting. Look it up in wiktionary for a definition. If you part in hard work to wikipedia and you have it obliterated and then an editors rants on at you about DO NOT write it, somebody you used to consider a friend tells you NOT TO CREATE ARTICLES and DUMP them and somebody places a deletion warning on a vlaid article and you receive thes emessages all at once first thing in the morning when you log in feeling rotten anyway and you try being sweet about it. No it is not acceptable to be uncivil but SERIOUSLY the blocking admins in cases like really do need to why a person flared upand that they have human feelings. If people stopped messing with me and worked with me to write articles absolutely nothing like this would ever occur. This should never happen again. Blocking me is the most pointless thing possible. Is it meant to teach me a lesson? Because nothing can stop me flaring up from time to time if I feel I've been badly treated. Its a natural humane reaction. 99% of the time I am more that civil to people and happen to be one of the most encouraging editors on wikipedia to content contributors and have a great dela of respect for them which I hope is reciprocated. Unfortunately we are surrounded by many negative people who do little to generate content and pretend to govern the site. I've invited Sarek of Vulcan to write n article with positively but is he interested, no, because he will only be negative about everything. We are better off without having these sort of people around. Look what he cuased here last night. Nothing but aggravation and blew it all out of proportion by making snide remars when the situation had alreayd been appeased. For heaven's sake I'm much better than all this. Stay out of my affairs and I'll remain civil, but people have to treat me with some respect otherwise the bad feelings will be returned. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:40, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

support unblock, it is a sad day when an experienced user like Blofeld gets blocked, yeah his comment was harsh but the problem was solved when I told him to go on a wiki break, now some editors have dragged the topic back up and antagonised Blofeld to the point of blocking him, editors should have waited until blofeld had calmed down before coaxing him for an apology and a promise not to threaten users again. Now sadly one of our finest editors has retired--Lerdthenerd (talk) 11:22, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Simplest diff guide
• Misplaced Pages:Simple diff and link guide
• Misplaced Pages:Complete diff and link guide

In this edit I removed a quote by Brewcrewer from Nableezy's user page. Nableezy has queried my action, but not reverted. Nableezy has been notified of WP:ARBPIA, but doesn't have any special restriction relating to civility etc. Was my action ok? PhilKnight (talk) 17:26, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

If that's what Brewcrewer said and he's OK with Nableezy putting the quote on his userpage, I don;t see a problem with it. If not, then it could be seen as provocative. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:30, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm struggling to see the generalizable principle that leads to the conclusion that it's appropriate to remove it. PhilKnight, could you please articulate it? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

In my edit summary, I described it as uncollegial. Also, I suspect that Brewcrewer would find it as provocative. PhilKnight (talk) 17:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

If Brewercrewer finds it provocative to have his words quoted in that way, perhaps that suggests that he might do well to rethink his post on that talk page. The fact that Nableezy is quoting it can't be the only thing amiss here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:10, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

:::@PhilKnight, I am afraid you removing the quote from Nab's user page shows yet another time that you are not uninvolved administrator concerning I/A conflict area.--Mbz1 (talk) 17:37, 7 November 2010 (UTC) Sorry it was a wrong post.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi Mbz1, could you explain? PhilKnight (talk) 17:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC) No problem. PhilKnight (talk) 18:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Support Phil's action. WP:civility as the basis. Which, inter alia, says: "editors should always treat each other with consideration and respect. In order to keep the focus on improving the encyclopedia and to help maintain a pleasant editing environment, editors should behave politely". And that "Incivility consists of personal attacks, rudeness, disrespectful comments, and aggressive behaviours that disrupt the project and lead to unproductive stress and conflict". This appears to be less than civil. What is needed in the I/P area is greater civility by editors, not efforts by editors to inflame, insult, or bait each other.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec w Ep) The edit, especially considering the edit summary, adds more ammunition to an already active battlefield. The rule is that we should always comment on content, not the contributor. The rule is there for a reason, and if editors cannot abide by it they should think about removing themselves from the contentious topic to somewhere they can focus on content. If an editor has problems with another editor, there are ways of dealing with that such as RFC/U. Posting such as this to their user page is not part of the dispute resolution process. -Atmoz (talk) 17:49, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, trolling, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited." Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles section 4.1.2 - Decorum. The first line is clear. And the trolling line might also apply. There are two problems, though. Previous consensus has allowed Nableezy to do whatever he wants on his user page and another admin has mentioned that this sort of thing should be at AE instead of ANI. Cptnono (talk) 18:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

While it is nice that so many familiar faces have made an appearance, I would like to ask a few simple questions. How is quoting a user and providing a diff for the quote uncivil or an attack or "ammunition to an already active battlefield"? The reason the quote was there was because it is representative of some of the nonsense that users deal with in the topic area. I dont think there is anything wrong with including such a quote, I make no disparaging remark about the quote, I simply show what a user thinks, that the sources are "irrelevant". If somebody wants to make the absurd claim that accurately quoting a user and providing a diff for that quote is either "trolling" or "brings the project into disrepute" that user should be required to back up that claim with more than his imagination. Either that or strike the absurd line. I would like somebody to explain to me why what a user said on a talk page cannot be quoted on my userpage. With a reason with more substance than unsupported assertions that "civility" demands it. nableezy - 18:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Again, see the first line of the decision. It should be crystal clear. In regards to trolling, if you did it to make a point about the editor and to get under his skin then it might be considered trolling. Is it fostering courteous interaction with the user? Is it highlighting your constructive and collaborative outlook? No. It was a poor comment (assuming there is no other context) and it looks like you are attempting to showcase that and bring ridicule upon the other editor. But like I said, admins have allowed you to continue your behavior. I don't know why but that is the way it is.Cptnono (talk) 19:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Per WP:UP#POLEMIC, "material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws" may not be part of user pages. As such, the removal of the content was correct. This userspace issue does not seem to be within the scope of WP:ARBPIA, though.  Sandstein  18:59, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

How is accurately quoting a user either an attack or the recording of a perceived flaw? The flaw is with Misplaced Pages in that it allows editors who say that in a conflict on where a place is that what sources say that place is located is an "irrelevant straw man". How is accurately quoting a user and providing a diff of that quote a violation of WP:UP#POLEMIC? And if it were, shouldnt MFD be used? nableezy - 19:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

MfD is only for deleting entire pages. Under the circumstances, notably your repeated disagreements with Brewcrewer about I/P issues, the quote cannot be understood other than as an attempt by you to mock or disparage Brewcrewer. That is not allowed.  Sandstein  19:08, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

But Im not mocking brewcrewer, Im mocking Misplaced Pages. If you look at the talkpage I thank brewcrewer for his honesty on this subject. I dont have a problem with brewcrewer feeling this way or voicing this opinion. I do however have a problem with the administrators here who think it is a bigger problem that I quote a user saying the sources are irrelevant than the problem that there is a user who actually says the sources are irrelevant. nableezy - 19:12, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Hadn't noticed the comment until I was notified of the discussion. In general I would not have a problem with being mocked over something silly that I said. But this "quote" of mine is being taken out of context. Anyone who reads the discussion in its entirety will see that I did not mean that in general "sourcing is irrelevant." I meant that for that particular discussion sourcing is irrelevant because the issue was which sourced content should be primary and which sourced content should be secondary. This much was explained to Nableezy at the talk page, but s/he chose to ignore me and post the taken-out-of-context quote on his user page. These type of strawman arguments and incivility are par for the course in my interaction with Nableezy as seen at Talk:Rachel's Tomb#Location and Talk:Psagot#legality.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The context is provided by the diff. You cannot in good faith claim that the quote is taken out of context when the entire context is provided. These type of bad faith arguments are par for the course in my interaction with editors who disregard sources in favor of their own personal wishes. nableezy - 19:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

But you can in good faith argue that "The reason the quote was there was because it is representative of some of the nonsense that users deal with in the topic area" while the edit summary says "return brews finest hour" and it was posted 12 minutes after brewcrewer commented on an AE report concerning you, but almost two weeks after he actually made the comment you quoted? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, because what you write isnt entirely true, but that is to be expected from you. Brew made the edit on 21:39, 21 October 2010. I initially added it to my userpage 6 minutes later. I took it down and then put it back up in the edit you reference. nableezy - 20:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Why did you put it back up? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Because it's absurd. brewcrewer basically admits that nableezy is right, that's it's in the West Bank, but that the location should still be decided on who controls the area and his idea of what readers are interested in. The sources against Rachel's Tomb as being in the West Bank include an Israeli High Court decision; even Israel disagrees with brewcrewer's proposed location. The quote sums up the only reasoning justifying the edit. It's in the context of the exact same argument used in every disputed bit of Israeli occupied territory, that we should say it's in Israel because Israel controls it. This cycle is repeated over and over and over in different articles by the same editors, wasting massive amounts of time. Maybe nableezy should have just reported brewcrewer for tendentious editing but it's a perfect crystallization of what goes on here (and looks even worse in context).Sol (talk) 21:40, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

It's obvious brew was saying "the sources are not the issue" not "the sources are not important".

Why did he put it back up when he did, right after brew did something he didn't like? Coincidence? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I dont know, whys the sky the blue? nableezy - 02:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Scattering of sunlight by particles in the atmosphere. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

It's a shame you can't be honest about why you did it. Do I really need to dig up the previous times you put stuff on your user page just to annoy other editors? You didn't used to be shy about it. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:20, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

The placement is intentionally provocative. Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been handled with kid gloves despite a multitude of violations on WP:ARBPIA such as calling fellow editors "certain ultra right-wing nationalists" and assuming bad faith, ignoring factual data as it is presented to him :

• "certain ultra right-wing nationalists" (2 November 2010)
• "I dont exactly believe most (all) of what you claim" (1 November 2010),
• "I will be reinserting this material once protection is lifted." (2 November 2010)

His style is to allege others are bad editors and his efforts are meant to counter them, which is a horrible starting point -- and leads to a horrible editor to work with. One that uses red herrings and ignores content and attempts at reasoning.

With respect, Jaakobou 22:13, 7 November 2010 (UTC) + 22:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC) + 01:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

You really want me to respond to this nonsense? You might not look so good if I do. nableezy - 02:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

"With respect", after all that?? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:29, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The usual phraseology would be, "With all undue respect..." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. Even starting with an assumption of good faith, and ignoring that Nableezy has just been blocked elsewhere for incivility, I find it difficult to believe, after hearing about the history between the two, that Nableezy was doing anything other than engaging in uncivil mocking. And therefore find it unduly stretching credulity to believe his statements here that that was not his intent. But we need not go there, unless someone is seeking to have Nableezy sanctioned for incivility. All we need to do is let Nableezy understand how his edit is seen by the community.

Understanding (now) the consensus view on the subject, of course he, as a non-disruptive editor who is most assuredly not seeking to mock another editor against core wp guidelines, will be quite happy that the offending language that he had posted has been removed. End of story.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:40, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Uhh no, there were a few uninvolved views here, and Ill pay attention to them, but for the most part this section has been dominated by users who havent done much in the past few days except for request that I be blocked. Ill just have to find a creative way to include this quote, a way that would not be "uncollegial". nableezy - 02:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Nableezy, I would suggest that you respect consensus. You were blocked this week. You now indicate a lack of interest in respecting the views of those who supported you being blocked -- as though their opinions about your editing or disruption are not legitimate. You have it wrong. As you were blocked on the advice of those editors, it is precisely those editors who you should be heeding. WP:consensus does not suggest that Nableezy should only heed the views of those who agree with him, and not the views of those who the blocking admins agree with. If you are indeed intending to be non-disruptive, as you maintained, you will heed the view expressed above.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:15, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

In 3 years I have been blocked for 3 hours for civility. I understand why you are repeating this line, Ive seen you play this game before, you like to pretend that a somebody is a "problem user" with a "history of disruption". I dont see a consensus for anything here, and even if there were a drama board is not the place to determine the consensus on what may be placed on a userpage, MFD is. You can continue to comment here, but it wont affect anything I do. If uninvolved users have something to say I will certainly pay attention. Bye. nableezy - 14:10, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Nableezy. If we start using labels like "problem user" with a "history of disruption" for every editor who's only been blocked 6 times this year , we're setting unreasonably high standards. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

ahh, but all my blocks are in my one block log. How many of your friends can say the same? nableezy - 17:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Unless you have evidence of socking, you should retract that statement. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

The vast majority. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:42, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Nab -- as you know, you have an impressive number of blocks, and separately an impressive number of bans. Some of the editors who you don't want to listen to here are the ones who contributed to complaints about your behavior that led to your blocks and bans. Again, I would suggest that those are precisely the editors you should heed, rather than ignore, if your goal is to be a non-disruptive contributor to the Project, which of course I'm sure it is.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:59, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

It actually appears that adding up all of your blocks results in a number greater than mine. Does that mean that as you have so many blocks your view is irrelevant? Color me confused, I thought you kept raising others history because you had a clean one. Back to the point, Ill pay attention to whatever uninvolved editors have to say. That doesnt include the editors who made a complaint about my supposedly incivility which resulted in a 3 hour block for me and a 48 hour block for the user who wrote the line that prompted my response. Funny how not one of you had any problem at all with what that user wrote. TBS funny. nableezy - 22:48, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

couldn't be maybe that the other user's block for PA was disputed by all but three out of about a dozen or so editors, whereas your comment was an undisputable PA; could it? WookieInHeat (talk) 03:53, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

• No opinion - If we want to talk about quotes, I think his "All that will happen is that uninvolved users will be drowned out by familiar faces making predictable positions", said in regards to this AN/I filing, was spot on. If we strip out the noise from the above discussion, we're left with one legitimate opinion against the quotation usage (Sandstein). So how about this; all those involved in the topic area zip it, and let people with no horse in the race get a word in edgewise if they wish. Tarc (talk) 16:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Tarc -- I encourage you not to zip it. Let's AGF, and assume that even editors who have observed and supplied information relative to Nab's prior blocks are entitled to contribute to this discussion. It makes little sense to censor out of the discussion those editors who have made legitimate complaints regarding Nab, that have been supported by admin action. If fairness is our goal.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:55, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment it would seem the most logical conclusion would be that if brew doesn't mind the comment on nableezy's page, it's fine. that said, if brew feels the comment is being taken out of context in order to portray him in a negative light (which does appear to be the intention), it shouldn't be there. on another note, as per usual nableezy appears to be treading the civility line very carefully, being as condescending as possible without stepping over it (i.e. calling other users comments "nonsense" in this thread). WookieInHeat (talk) 22:02, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
• Comment I would like to propose we start a page somewhere called "I/P Bickering", thus allowing the rest of the wiki-verse to return to more productive things. This has already become the predicted forum for attacking favorite targets. Sol (talk) 23:03, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Unarchived

Nableezy has again brought attention to Brew's quote (out of context and consensus seems to be against him doing it like that) while also adding two quotes from me on his user page. They are also out of context. Yes I said I was anti-Arab but then I clarified it when requested. Yes I said there should be white supremacists editing but made it clear that it is because articles related to them are skewed. He cut out those bits. If he is purposely pushing people's buttons he needs to be banned from the topic area.Cptnono (talk) 18:10, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The old thread, which you've unarchived, was focused around whether my removal of a diff from Nableezy's user page was ok. My understanding is there wasn't a consensus that I had made a mistake. Also, from my perspective Nableezy's user page was problematic as it named the editor quoted, and that is no longer the case. PhilKnight (talk) 18:30, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I misread consensus then. S is it OK then? If so, I will edit my user page accordingly.Cptnono (talk) 18:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Last time I went ahead and removed the problematic material, and the discussion amongst uninvolved editors was finely balanced as to whether my actions were acceptable. In this context, and given this time around the content is less problematic, I don't intend to go ahead and remove the diffs. PhilKnight (talk) 18:48, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

So if I put on my user page "This user is an asshole." is it acceptable? I know how dumb that sounds but it is essentially what he did and I am not using his name.Cptnono (talk) 18:52, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

TLDR, but to me, the quote seems fine. It is not an attack against the editor who made it: they said it, why would they post an attack against themself? That is a ridiculous argument. So as per WP:USER, it comes within the boundary of what one can generally post one one's page. For instance, I have a diff of someone PROD-ing my talkpage because I am "extremely shameful" – it's just a bit of humour. Cope. ╟─TreasuryTag►Speaker─╢ 18:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Cool. This can be marked as resolved. It looks like I can add "This user is an asshole." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cptnono (talk • contribs)

If you're replying to me, then I never said anything of the sort. ╟─TreasuryTag►constablewick─╢ 19:01, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes I was. You said that his user page was acceptable. Read the comment right above it. To be honest, it is not something I am not comfortable adding but it makes sense that it would be acceptable under the reasoning provided.Cptnono (talk) 19:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

What I said is that the quote referred to at the top of this thread is, in my view, acceptable. What I did not say is that rampant personal attacks are permissible. Perhaps you should read it over again. ╟─TreasuryTag►most serene─╢ 19:07, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

But he is saying essentially the same thing. He is making me look like an asshole by taking the quotes out of context. I wouldn't mind looking like a different kind of asshole (a jerk instead of a racist) if the full conversation was there, of course. I just don't see the difference.Cptnono (talk) 19:10, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) He is quoting you. If you'd said that he was publicising the fact that you made yourself look like "an asshole" (your words, not mine) then I might have agreed with you. But if you wanted to avoid the appearance of "an asshole" then you shouldn't have made that quote. ╟─TreasuryTag►belonger─╢ 19:15, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

But he didn't use the full quote which changes the meaning of the quote.Cptnono (talk) 19:16, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

But he did link to the full quote which clarifies the situation (if you say so). ╟─TreasuryTag►sheriff─╢ 19:18, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

That is a cop out. He is skewing the meaning of my quote and adding a small link that makes it say something different.Cptnono (talk) 19:21, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

What size do you think the link should be in order to make it fair, then? ╟─TreasuryTag►assemblyman─╢ 19:22, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I think he should provide the full context clearly without the need to use a link. I stand behind what I said but I don;t stand behind he impression he is trying make.Cptnono (talk) 19:24, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

So why did you complain, just above, about the "small" dimensions of the link, if they are actually irrelevant? ╟─TreasuryTag►hemicycle─╢ 19:26, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Because it is a small link. But even if I described it as a big link it doesn't change the scenario.Cptnono (talk) 19:29, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry. I assumed that your phrase, "...adding a small link that makes it say something different," was an objection to the size of the link. I think that's how a normal person would interpret it. ╟─TreasuryTag►stannator─╢ 19:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say you weren't normal. But is the size of the link the only thing you wish to comment on or will you comment on the stated (and even clarified) concern? You ignored my primary reason and instead started playing a game with single word out of numerous comments.Cptnono (talk) 19:49, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. But I did it brilliantly. ╟─TreasuryTag►quaestor─╢ 22:19, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Please do not attack other editors, as you did here: User:Nableezy. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. HalfShadow 19:03, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• Nableezy's whole user page appears to be a soapbox and his wikilawyering in this thread is tedious. The quote removed from the user page was an out-of-context dig at another editor. We're usually pretty loose about userpage contents simply because most users aren't so tendentious. But at the end of the day, user pages are supposed to have encyclopedic purpose or they should not remain on the site. If Nableezy wants a soapbox for his political views, that's great, he can start a blog. WP is an encyclopedia and we're not here for that. Also, not that I'm any fan of huckster "street artists", the Banksy painting image on Nableezy's userpage is probably a copyvio.

  Nableezy's conduct (battleground editing, wikilawyering) seriously fails to adhere is in tension with the purpose of Misplaced Pages, possibly to the point of serious failure to adhere. As such, remedies under ARBPIA discretionary sanctions would seem to come into play. I haven't followed the soap opera enough to call for stiff sanctions right away, but a formal "thin ice" warning seems to be in order.

  In short, cut the crap. 69.111.192.233 (talk) 20:15, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that calling yourself Anti-Arab probably isn't going to get a very good reaction from Arabs or most people in general. Qualifying it with "Arab governments and the predominant religion over there have historically been problematic" isn't helping matters. There's precious little good will in the I/P edit battles as is and branding yourself as against a group of people tarnishes a hardworking editor. Sol (talk) 22:52, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I think that was addressed to Cptnono not to me. I haven't looked into Cptnono's edits, which may also be problematic. In my view these long term edit battles shouldn't be allowed. If WP isn't capable of putting together a neutral article (as agreed by consensus) on a topic after a reasonable amount of time, it should boot the article to incubation and leave a protected redlink in article space until a neutral version is developed. 69.111.192.233 (talk) 00:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it was, my bad :P My functional IQ plummets from its already modest heights by the end of the week. Sol (talk) 00:16, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Have to agree with TreasuryTag. Seems innocuous, and he links to the full diff. Aren't there more important things to care about? -- ۩ Mask 23:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

This is all very fascinating, but I have a question. Would an editor who publicly states that they are an antisemite, or "anti-Jew" to make the comparison clear, be allowed to edit in the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area? What if they said that Judaism has "historically been the problem" in the Middle East? nableezy - 01:05, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Here? There's half a chance someone would give them a barnstar. IronDuke 01:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

You think? Personally, I would hope a ban would fall on that editors head swiftly and without warning. nableezy - 01:19, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I think it's pretty disgusting that I haven't been quoted on Nableezy's userpage yet. Apparently I haven't said anything provocative enough. For the record, I hold exceedingly biased pro-Israeli and pro-Arab viewpoints. You can quote me on that, and put that in whatever context you want, provided you wikilink pro-Israeli to Bar Refaeli and wikilink pro-Arab to Rima Fakih. Scandalous!

On a more topical note, if editors were to retract the quoted statements in question (by striking them out, for instance), would Nableezy then be required to remove them from their user page? ← George 01:36, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Could someone just block this guy as well. He's User:Historičar's Unbelievably Obvious Sock No.324. :) --DIREKTOR 00:41, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Moved this here since it's a duplicate. No comment on the editor in question. — Gavia immer (talk) 01:17, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

This was checkusered and found  Unrelated to Historicar ( ). If there's strong behavioral evidence it can be presented, but the CU opinion carries a lot of weight... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:52, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

• The reasoning seems a bit tenuous; the primary account (and the socks) is interested in the language, the other account seems interested in the war. Other than them both being Bosnian based, there seems to be no real overlap. HalfShadow 04:11, 20 November 2010 (UTC)