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Proposed minor change to lead
Just came back to read this article after a long hiatus. It strikes me as odd that the lead introduces opinions from three people without explaining who they are. I propose the following underlined changes to the lead. LK (talk) 04:54, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Libertarianism is the advocacy of individual liberty, especially freedom of thought and action. Philosopher Roderick T. Long defines libertarianism as "any political position that advocates a radical redistribution of power from the coercive state to voluntary associations of free individuals", whether "voluntary association" takes the form of the free market or of communal co-operatives. David Boaz, vice president of the Cato Institute, writes that, "Libertarianism is the view that each person has the right to live his life in any way he chooses so long as he respects the equal rights of others" and that, "Libertarians defend each person's right to life, liberty, and property--rights that people have naturally, before governments are created."
Economist Karl Widerquist writes of left-libertarianism and libertarian socialism as being distinct ideologies also claiming the label "libertarianism". However, many works broadly distinguish right-libertarianism and left-libertarianism as related forms of libertarian philosophy. Also identified is a large faction advocating minarchism, though libertarianism has also long been associated with anarchism (and sometimes is used as a synonym for such), especially outside of the United States. Anarchism remains one of the significant branches of libertarianism.
- This looks good. Fifelfoo (talk) 05:04, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
- Adding context like this is helpful, IMO. BigK HeX (talk) 06:24, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
- I think that the proposed change is good. This is not to say I like that very confusing second paragraph, but the change in it is fine. North8000 (talk) 12:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
- The proposed change is good in general, though I think it's important to identify Boaz somehow as a leading authority on libertarianism, or at least as a libertarian writer, as that is presumably why he was chosen to write the entry on this topic at Brittanica (which is the relevant source).
- So for this part:
- David Boaz, vice president of the Cato Institute, writes that, ...
- I propose:
- David Boaz, libertarian writer and vice president of the Cato Institute, writes that, ...
- --Born2cycle (talk) 19:16, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. Although you could argue this addition for the other two guys as well, I think that for them it's much more apparent that they are also writers.
So, to clarify, the proposal is LK's proposed changes, with the expansion on the Boaz description per Born2cycle? North8000 (talk) 11:48, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
- If so, OK with me. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:01, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Libertarianism is the advocacy of individual liberty, especially freedom of thought and action. Philosopher Roderick T. Long defines libertarianism as "any political position that advocates a radical redistribution of power from the coercive state to voluntary associations of free individuals", whether "voluntary association" takes the form of the free market or of communal co-operatives. David Boaz, vice president of the Cato Institute, writes that, "Libertarianism is the view that each person has the right to live his life in any way he chooses so long as he respects the equal rights of others" and that, "Libertarians defend each person's right to life, liberty, and property--rights that people have naturally, before governments are created."
Request
{{edit protected}}
So, to make it easy for the admin, we request adding the underlined words to the lead (but don't underline them in the lead)
- Libertarianism is the advocacy of individual liberty, especially freedom of thought and action. Philosopher Roderick T. Long defines libertarianism as "any political position that advocates a radical redistribution of power from the coercive state to voluntary associations of free individuals", whether "voluntary association" takes the form of the free market or of communal co-operatives. David Boaz, libertarian writer and vice president of the Cato Institute, writes that, "Libertarianism is the view that each person has the right to live his life in any way he chooses so long as he respects the equal rights of others" and that, "Libertarians defend each person's right to life, liberty, and property--rights that people have naturally, before governments are created."
- Economist Karl Widerquist writes of left-libertarianism and libertarian socialism as being distinct ideologies also claiming the label "libertarianism". However, many works broadly distinguish right-libertarianism and left-libertarianism as related forms of libertarian philosophy. Also identified is a large faction advocating minarchism, though libertarianism has also long been associated with anarchism (and sometimes is used as a synonym for such), especially outside of the United States. Anarchism remains one of the significant branches of libertarianism.
I think I tagged it......if I didn't do it wrong.... my first one of these. North8000 (talk) 15:49, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
}}
Tried again North8000 (talk) 11:43, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- this still looks good. Fifelfoo (talk) 12:07, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, all
Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:16, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, all
Reminder
As a reminder, and note to new folks, the focus of the work on this article moved to http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Libertarianism/OverviewDraft2. While I think that that workspace will create a multi-use long term foudation for other work on the article, the action item at the moment is to arrive at a "common tenets" list to guide and assist the writing and sourcing of a new "overview" section. Please participate, and let's get it to the finish line. North8000 (talk) 11:54, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
- And as a reminder, some of us have some WP:OR concerns about that page. I consider that it a somewhat useful exercise only if it is used to back up some new drafted material. However, it should not be used as an excuse to exclude any source from any future draft. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:04, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
- Carol, I don't think that there is any agenda there. North8000 (talk) 14:50, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
- Considering contentious editing in past, just wanted to throw in those 32 cents (inflation). :-) CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:35, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
- Whew...the pressure was off when it was only 2 cents. That's progress! :-) North8000 (talk) 21:49, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
- Considering contentious editing in past, just wanted to throw in those 32 cents (inflation). :-) CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:35, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
- Carol, I don't think that there is any agenda there. North8000 (talk) 14:50, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Is this page dead?
A few months ago, the discussion on this page had devolved into the truly ridiculous. Now, it appears to be dead. Well done, Misplaced Pages. 122.60.93.162 (talk) 05:11, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- That seems to be the pattern with full protection. Please see the workspace note under "Reminder" above. While even that has gone nearly dead, we should draft the new "overview" section in there, get it put up, and then get the protection removed. North8000 (talk) 10:21, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Remove the protection? So the Libertarianism page can be inundated with even more Anarchism, Socialism and Communism using spurious sources from agenda-driven academics using a revisionist vocabulary? 122.60.93.162 (talk) 10:26, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- A needed rest for all that blazing testosterone (including mine :-). But thanks for a little kick in the butt. I'm halfway done with a relevant new article and then will go through and make a draft page of my suggested changes. By first of year :-) CarolMooreDC (talk) 10:39, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- To 122.60..... One could argue that the article is already so overwhelmed with that stuff (without context of prevalence) that it can't get any worse. (Not that I would want mention of all of thosevariants removed)
- To Carol and all. By it's title, this is the main article on Libertarianism. I think that it is important to keep it moving forward. North8000 (talk) 14:44, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- I think the volume presented is probably adequate, but the presentation is not encyclopaedic, it pushes the reader all over the shop. I'm quite happy to wait for Carol to present a major draft, I've got a lot of faith in Carol's encyclopaedic editing. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:19, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- Carol, are you working on THIS article, or a different one? North8000 (talk) 02:57, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm starting another libertarianism article that I've found has some good refs relevant to here, and just want to get a new article under my belt. (And of course I get sidetracked by other issues that jump up which I think are central to wikipedia's integrity, but don't get me started.) I really don't have massive changes, just a new section/paragraph/sentence or two and clean up and consistency. Plus of course I'll look at that sources page.
- My one question to others would be, is history section that has been copied into Libertarianism in the United States overly long for this article? Maybe cut 20-30% or so and refer to that article? CarolMooreDC (talk) 08:48, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm kind of neutral on that, except that it seems like the wrong place to worry about in this article, i.e. like #10 on it's list of problems. North8000 (talk) 10:33, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- With most stuff archived, and tempers cooled, might be good time just to list those issues in general terms anyway. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:39, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm kind of neutral on that, except that it seems like the wrong place to worry about in this article, i.e. like #10 on it's list of problems. North8000 (talk) 10:33, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- Carol, are you working on THIS article, or a different one? North8000 (talk) 02:57, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
- A needed rest for all that blazing testosterone (including mine :-). But thanks for a little kick in the butt. I'm halfway done with a relevant new article and then will go through and make a draft page of my suggested changes. By first of year :-) CarolMooreDC (talk) 10:39, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Remove the protection? So the Libertarianism page can be inundated with even more Anarchism, Socialism and Communism using spurious sources from agenda-driven academics using a revisionist vocabulary? 122.60.93.162 (talk) 10:26, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
the use of the word libertarian
I propose adding a small section at the beginning called "use of the word "libertarian" "and dealing there with the fact that The term "libertarianism" is globally considered a synonym for anarchism while the United States is unique in its associatiation of that word with a classical liberal pro-capitalism ideology. If we don´t add this idea, this article will suffer a serious Misplaced Pages:Systemic bias and might well deserve this tagging Template:Globalize/USA.--Eduen (talk) 00:48, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- suggest you read the talk page archives and the warning at the top of this page. Fifelfoo_m (talk) 01:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- Discussion of that issue, if not quite the perspective you want according to all WP:RS, has been in and out of the lead and seems to me it's still in there in the body. Read the whole article. CarolMooreDC (talk) 05:47, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- The associatiation of the word libertarian with a classical liberal pro-capitalism ideology, especially since the 1970s, is prevalent throughout the English speaking world, including the UK, Australia and (English speaking, not French) Canada. You can find libertarian organizations in all of these countries that advocate classical liberalism and minarchism rather than anarchism or even anarcho-capitalism, though there is that too. But I support the idea of adding clarification at the top of the article that in other languages, and sometimes (but not prevalently) in English, the word is more closely associated with anarchism. --Born2cycle (talk) 08:57, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
The more informative the article is the better. Including overviewing topics such as the above. But we need to try to also go by weight. I.E. weigh by significantly held beliefs (past or present). Right now the article is a confusing mess because it fails to do so. North8000 13:43, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- agree, we should clarify the term in the lede Darkstar1st (talk) 15:11, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- Again, it's been in and out many times. Sigh... CarolMooreDC (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see a need for its own section. Just put a sentence or two into the relevant "History" text. BigK HeX (talk) 19:43, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- notice when you type in "libertarian" in google, the lp party and the wp article appear, but no socialist or anarchist links. my favorite retort will come from the usual suspects, "using the worlds most popular search engine as a gauge of public understanding is not wp:policy" Darkstar1st (talk) 20:24, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- There isn't going to be a quick answer. It will take a lot of work to bring the article out of the confusing mess that it is, and including overview material that gives some perspective, while still covering the bases. Work on the overview section would be a a good place to start. It's about 3/4 done, but seems to have fizzled. North8000 21:12, 19 December 2010 (UTC) North8000 21:10, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- notice when you type in "libertarian" in google, the lp party and the wp article appear, but no socialist or anarchist links. my favorite retort will come from the usual suspects, "using the worlds most popular search engine as a gauge of public understanding is not wp:policy" Darkstar1st (talk) 20:24, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- The Week Online Interviews Chomsky, Z Magazine, February 23, 2002. "The term libertarian as used in the US means something quite different from what it meant historically and still means in the rest of the world. Historically, the libertarian movement has been the anti-statist wing of the socialist movement. Socialist anarchism was libertarian socialism. In the US, which is a society much more dominated by business, the term has a different meaning. It means eliminating or reducing state controls, mainly controls over private tyrannies. Libertarians in the US don't say let's get rid of corporations. It is a sort of ultra-rightism."
- Colin Ward, Anarchism: A Very Short Introduction, Oxford University Press, 2004, p. 62. "For a century, anarchists have used the word 'libertarian' as a synonym for 'anarchist', both as a noun and an adjective. The celebrated anarchist journal Le Libertaire was founded in 1896. However, much more recently the word has been appropriated by various American free-market philosophers..."
- Fernandez, Frank. Cuban Anarchism. The History of a Movement, Sharp Press, 2001, p. 9. "Thus, in the United States, the once exceedingly useful term "libertarian" has been hijacked by egotists who are in fact enemies of liberty in the full sense of the word."
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