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Consensus needed on which borderline countries are included in this article

There has been a lot of discussion about which countries to include in this article over the last few weeks. Many countries are cut and dry, but a number of them have been controversial or borderline. They are: Djibouti, Somalia, Western Sahara, Cyprus, Lebanon, and Mauritania. So, which ones do we include? I think the answer is that we include all countries which a WP:RS has included in coverage of this regional movement. I took a survey of worldwide mainstream media sources which are not only covering these protests, but also feature a country-by-country MAP with their coverage. I was able to find FIVE examples of mainstream media with maps. The sources are: CNN, Al Jazeera, BBC, Washington Post, CBC (Canada).

The result was as follows:

 • Djibouti: Included in 1 of 5 maps (only CNN)
 • Somalia: ZERO of the maps included Somalia
 • Western Sahara: ZERO of the maps included Western Sahara, however Washington Post included it as part of Morocco
 • Cyprus: ZERO of the maps included Cyprus
 • Lebanon: Included in 3 of 5 maps (CNN and BBC excluded it)
 • Mauritania: Included in 1 of 5 maps (only CNN)

Therefore, I propose that we align our map, and with it the list of countries covered in this article, with the current global coverage of the protests. That means, Remove Somalia, Add Lebanon, and Continue to exclude Cyprus. If Cyprus and/or Somalia become reported in WP:RS as part of overall MENA protest coverage, then we should cover them too. Until then, we need to be in line with what's being reported.

Let's try to get consensus on which countries to include, as it's the purpose of this article ZeLonewolf (talk) 02:18, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment - The problem with Somalia is that the Transitional Federal Government only controls parts parts of Mogadishu, so nobody cares about a protest there, when the country as a whole is in Civil War. But it is part of the Arab World, and it was a protest inspired by Tunisia and Egypt, albeit minor, and quite insignificant when taken in context. Agree with adding Lebanon, but Somewhat Disagree with excluding Northern Cyprus (see here) - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 11:52, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment - the conflicts in Western Sahara, Somalia, and Northern Cyprus all predate the MENA protests by decades. Sources indicate recent protests in these locations are inspired by Tunisia, but the disputes behind said protests have a known separate cause. I think a line needs to be drawn between "inspired" and "related." On that note, I move to Relocate all three of the aforementioned countries to: Impact of 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests. Agree with adding Lebanon here, now that the article contains information pertaining to it. DerekMBarnes (talk) 12:40, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Agree - Derek's opinion is mine as well. We need to highlight that these protests were completely new to the region, yet anyone who knows the region knows of the conflict in the Southern Provinces, Somaliland-Puntland-Mogadishu and the Cyprus question.--Smart30 (talk) 14:07, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Agree -The Western Sahara, Somalia, and Northern Cyprus conflicts can't be linked to the protests in MENA, and they were not influential/instigational, there is no significant evidence for us to think otherwise--Kapoon129 (talk) 21:40, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I have updated the map with +Lebanon, -Western Sahara and -Somalia. Still need to update the article to reflect the map. ZeLonewolf (talk) 00:34, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Moved Somalia+Western Sahara to updated section below Main Countries section. They need an edit, shortening them.--Smart30 (talk) 01:44, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I have searched again. A RS Hurriyet Daily News, drew parellels between North Cyprus protests (at Inonu Square) and protests at Tahrir Square and say NC protests are caused by the domino effect of Arab World protests. and "This is the first protest held in Cyprus since 1974 that gathered so many people under such a banner." But, there is no source which mentions NC protests as part of MENA protests. But, the organizers say they are inspired by what's going on the Arab World. Maybe, NC protests are like Albanian protests, they're inspired by Arab World protests, but we cannot put NC protest in Impact of 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests, since Cyprus is luckily in the Middle East. This dilemma is caused by this article's name. As a solution, I think "Other Countries in the Region" section is suitable for these protests, I agree with the editor who has put NC protests there. Some more references: , , , , JPost , CNBC , , , . Lastly, note that these protests are completely new to the Cyprus question, we have never seen such anti-TRNC government protests. Kavas (talk) 14:49, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Strong disagree with excluding Western Sahara - Academics like Noam Chomsky (The current wave of protests actually began last November in Western Sahara ) or Bernabé López García (Agdaym Izik, the Sahrawi dignity camp, was the first outbreak of this wave of protests that cant stand no more hipocrisy ), international jurist as Eduardo Soto-Trillo (What happened in El Aaiun in November, in the camp, that popular uprising is in the origin of all), politicians, activists, etc... had pointed to the Gdeim Izik protest camp and the posterior events In El Aaiun as the first step of the current events. I know that the sovereignity issue made many people to untie the Sahrawi protests from the general protests, but that's ridiculous, because if we do that, same thing should be applied to any territory with previous issues, as for example, Palestine or Iran.

There are several examples of similarities and coincidences between the Sahrawi events and the posterior ones, to mention only a few.

• Same type of protest: Between October and November 2010, a protest camp in the outskirts of El Aaiun was erected, housing between 12,000 and 25,000 people. The camp was structured in committees (Dialogue com., Health com., Trash recollection com., etc...) who administered the camp, as it happened later with the Tahrir square camp or in the Pearl roundabout in Manama. Demonstrations, sit-ins, and riots had also happened.
• Use of technologies: The protesters film and upload to the net several videos of the protest camp, trying to made visible their protest. Here there are some videos of the camp:.
• Same type of evolution in the aims: While at first the aims of the Sahrawi protesters are socio-economic (lack of jobs, discrimination, looting of natural resources...) repression made the protesters for higher aims, as the right of self-determination of the Sahrawi people.
• Same geographical, social and cultural enviroment: Some seem to forget that the Sahrawis are a Muslim, Arabic, Bereber and African people.

Well, I can point more equivalences, but I dont want to be exhaustive. For many experts, there is clear the relation between the events. I only hope that if people disagree can give arguments intead of deleting sourced content. Regards.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 18:50, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment: Look... you have been making this argument for days now that events were inspired by protests in Western Sahara, and the consensus among other editors and the media is against your opinion. You have found three references (only one in English) to academics saying Western Sahara was in some way a start of these events. Here are just a few from other sources saying that the events were inspired by Tunisia, during the first month that these events were unfolding. There are dozens more:

 • Al Jazeera: "Activists throughout the Arab world say they have been inspired by the example of Tunisia, the first country in generations where an Arab leader was toppled by public protests." 17 Jan 2011

 • NY Times: "Tunisia Unrest Stirs Passions Across North African Region" 17 Jan 2011

 • CNN: "inspired by the ouster of Tunisian President" 19 Jan 2011

 • CNN: "Jordan protesters inspired by Tunisian ripple" 19 Jan 2011

 • Al Jazeera: "The Tunisian uprising has inspired dissent across the Arab world" 21 Jan 2011

 • NY Times: "...inspired by the revolt in Tunisia..." 24 Jan 2011

 • Reuters: "The Tunisian uprising has inspired Arabs across the Middle East..." 27 Jan 2011

 • NY Times: "In Tunisia, where an uprising helped set in motion this month’s tumultuous events..." 28 Jan 2011

 • BBC: "It was inspired by the protests in Tunisia in the same month." 11 Feb 2011

Please go to Google or Google News and try "Tunisia inspired protests" and "Western Sahara inspired protests" or "Saharawi inspired protests" (without the quotes) and review the results that you get. The weight of support among reputable news sources is against your position. The comments you are trying to add belong as commentary in the Western Sahara section, if at all, not in the main article. Please review WP:NPOV before you consider resubmitting these changes. --216.70.233.34 (talk) 01:26, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment: a news article drawing a comparison to the Tunisia-inspired protests is not sufficient for inclusing. Merely having unrest while being in the MENA region is not sufficient. Even an interview with a protester stating that they are inspired by Egypt or Tunisia is not sufficient. Sufficient in my book means that WP:RS are citing the country as one of those participating in the wave of unrest. ZeLonewolf (talk) 02:17, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment - At most Western Sahara is a prologue to the MENA Protests, a sign of things to come. Problem is that WS is bound up with the sovereignty dispute, and it didn't amount to anything, it was just protests. The overwhelming consensus is that Tunisia is Chapter 1. Remember, it's the first domino to actually fall. - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 08:50, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Strong disagree with excluding Western Sahara - I too have herd from many independent media organizations including Democracy Now that although Western Sahara Protests are not Directly Linked to the Tunisia Uprising, they are Indirectly linked. So the correct answer is both. The MENA Protests started on December 18th, 2010, in their current form, but what happened is Western Sahara is still an intergal part of the story and is UNPRECEDENTED in that region as well. And although it might not seem like it affected the Tunisia protests from a western english point of view, it was huge unprecedented indy news in the Arabic world. This is my understand from what I have herd. So simply stated again, Western Sahara must be included, but it gets an asterix and doesn't really matter weather you put minor or major protests. But at LEAST minor protests! I think it is great that you want to list what is covered in corprate mainstream media, but Misplaced Pages is not Corporate Main Stream media, it is grassroots, so lets include what the academics and the independent media sources are saying. Please. Xacobi (talk) 08:58, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment: I understand your point, but can you provide any source material from that time period to support your comments above ("it was huge unprecedented indy news in the Arabic world") and below ("you better believe that Tunisians saw the news and learned from what was going on there")? You admit that it was not directly linked to the Tunisia Uprising, which is the starting point of events discussed in this article, yet you also say that Tunisian's were inspired by those protests. This seems inconsistant, and does not seem to be supported in any reputable sources, which is "required" for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. I have not seen any references in English except for the Noam Chomsky interview on 17 Feb 2011, three months after the November incidents he refers to and a month after Ben Ali was ousted, hardly contemporary to influencing the events. Nothing seems to have been picked up in the English press about this. Are there articles you are aware of in the reputable local Arabic press from that time period which support your interpretation? It is hard for others to understand your argument that this was unprecedented and inspiring to Tunisians yet there is no record or discussion of that. If not, then your comments appear as WP:OR which is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages. I don't think people are disputing that there have been protests in Western Sahara. The question is how they relate to this specific wave of uprisings that were inspired by successfully overthrowing Ben Ali. --68.7.83.37 (talk) 10:07, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Well I have to agree with what you are saying. I will do some research and see if I can find additonal sources besides norm chompsky and garcia, and report back. Xacobi (talk) 23:54, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok I did some research, and I could do a lot more of course, we'll see, but after 10 minutes of searching I found this: http://www.marxist.com/tunisia-protests-continue.htm It is an article written January 11th, 2011 three days before Tunisia's president fled by Marxy.com, the Arab website of the IMT, and gives a full account of the development of the Tunisian uprising, specifically its roots. Obviously the article starts by saying that the Tunisia protests as were seen at that moment started with the December 17th burning, but that is because the date that Tunisia started, does not necessarily indicate the date that the regional level protests started. The article talks about the months of protests that occurred in Tunisia before the current wave and clearly explains how what happened in Tunisia didn't just come out of nothing on December 18th, 2010. Mid way through the article (search western sahara) talks about the regional implications and clearly states "At the regional level, specifically in the Maghreb region, these movements follow the overwhelming mass struggle of the working class and toiling masses in Morocco and Western Sahara and Algeria." Which simply translated means, Tunisia followed in the footsteps of not only what was happening in Western Sahara but also Morocco and Algeria! So as far as the credibility of this article, I haven't read the whole thing, but from what I read it is EXTREMELY Detailed and is obviously in the point of view of arabs and has been translated directly from the "arab website of the IMT" What the IMT is, I don't know, but I could figure it out. Obviously the original article in Arabic would be more clear, but I have no idea how read it or where that would be. So there's 15 minutes, and if you feel this has no credibility and you need more, then maybe I'll be willing to do more research, but you better at least give some ground as it is obvious in my opinion that the direction that this is going is towards the starting date truly being Fall 2010 instead of a specific single date, that is if you want to go with a factual representation of what actually is happening. If you want to go with the pretty, shinny, cut up, pre-prepared, sound bite, sell, corporate media version, then of course everyone loves the big focal point of someone setting themselves on fire in a blaze of glory, that makes a GREAT story, but factually and in regards to reality, it is just one cog in the belt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xacobi (talk • contribs) 00:36, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Northern Cyprus

I'd like to request the map be updated to add Northern Cyprus, which is typically considered part of the Middle East and has experienced both protests and a historical sovereignty dispute (like Western Sahara). -Kudzu1 (talk) 03:46, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

• Agreed. Maybe the Zoom in box containing Israel and the Palestinian Teritories could be expanded a little to include Cyprus as well - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 09:57, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
• Disagree. I have not yet seen a WP:RS report that mentions Cyprus in the context of MENA protests. Plus, the existence of Northern Cyprus is recognized only by Turkey. Also, we need to be careful to not include historical disputes as opposed to protests which are related to the Tunisia/Egypt uprisings. If you can find a RS, cite it here, and then we can discuss what to add to the article. ZeLonewolf (talk) 16:42, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
• Agreed I have a primary source in which organizers of the protests mention TRNC protesrs in the context of MENA protests (They say "today what's happening in Cyprus is a reflection of ongoing uprising in African and Arab nations.") and secondary sources in the article that show the protest is called Yasmin Revolution. Fro example, this reference shows that the protesters argue that TRNC would be a second Egypt. (http://www.elmahaber.com/kktc-ikinci-misir-olur-38934h.html) But these are all in Turkish, and not translated to English in media. The existence of NC is recognized "de facto" by EU, since EU is a peace negotiator between North and South. But, TRNC's indepedence is not recognized. The motive behind Cyprus is similar to Tunisia/Egypt uprisings, Turkish Cypriots are unhappy, the economy is bad, people cannot find work, they want the TRNC government to change (). Some other English sources: , (from HDN), (from NBC). IKavas (talk) 18:05, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
• Agree, per the previous references. Also, just because Northern Cyprus isn't widely recognized by governments beyond Turkey's doesn't mean we can't show it on the map. (Western Sahara, Southern Sudan, West Bank, and Gaza not fully recognized either and they're on the map). 140.247.146.51 (talk) 18:46, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Western Sahara

Aggregating Western Sahara-specific discussion -ZeLonewolf (talk) 02:38, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Western Sahara

There have been protests in Western Sahara - http://www.afrol.com/articles/37450. Not sure if Western Sahara should be colored yellow or not.

Vis-a-visconti (talk) 03:04, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

At least should be labeled as minor protests, have a section included in the article and colored appropriately in the map. 140.247.244.194 (talk) 23:26, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Agree: They are at least minor protests -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 14:56, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Weak support, but the sovereignty dispute is not related to the protests. I think the green stripes on the map need to go. DerekMBarnes (talk) 14:10, 7 March 2011 (UTC) Withdrawn, as per discussion here: . DerekMBarnes (talk) 11:35, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Agree: They are at least minor protests -- Western Sahara should be at least Minor Protests, (at the time I'm writing this, it is gray)Xacobi (talk) 09:04, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Starting point

Once again the Western Sahara is getting added to the overview. At this point I don't care if gets included, but just don't add it in without changing the starting point. Did the protests start on October 9 in Western Sahara or did it start on December 18 in Tunisia? Choose one or the other, but don't contradict the article! TL565 (talk) 23:18, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

As I understand it the Sahrawi dispute predates to well before October 9 and is not related to these events. And I have yet to hear any information saying Tunisians were inspired by Western Sahara. I say include the current cycle of Sahrawi protests as they relate to Tunisia, but lose the 'sovereignty dispute' category and save it for the devoted article. DerekMBarnes (talk) 12:07, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

If you look in the archives, there was a lot of discussion about this. I have been saying what you just pointed above, but it keeps getting added because that protest was "similar" or "it was in the same region". There is also this article, but I've still yet to see how its connected to the current protests or even how the October protests were a continuation to the February ones and not seperate. TL565 (talk) 23:50, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The Sovereignty dispute had no significant influence on the Tunisian uprising, the Tunisian revolt however DID have an impact on the whole MENA, the Western Sahara protests should not be referred to as the starting point it's ridiculous.Kapoon129 (talk) 18:21, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Western Sahara isn't the starting point for the current trend, but it is a very important asterix. What happened in November in Western Sahara was Unprecedented and although it was connected to previous long term issues, (all the protests from every country is connected to previous issues too), that doesn't change the fact that it was unprecedented and that something changed. Although this didn't directly cause the Tunisia protests, you better believe that Tunisians saw the news and learned from what was going on there. (see my comment from above)Xacobi (talk) 09:08, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Your claim seems inconsistent as you agree that it was not the starting point, but you then you say they inspired Tunisia. There are no sources that say that there was any inspiration by the WS. If it really was big news in the region, I'm sure it would be picked up by the western media. There are still not enough reliable sources that say the WS protest inspired anyone for that matter. So far, I have only heard that its Tunisia doing the inspiring such as the "Tunisia effect" and not the "Western Sahara effect". Also if you say WS should be mentioned as an asterix, it is already mentioned in the article under "Other territories in the region". Other than that, there shouldn't be any more mention as you agreed that it started in Tunisia. TL565 (talk) 11:56, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I understand your point TL565, and certainly cant disagree, and I will do some research and see if I can find additional english resources in addition to the Noam Chomsky, Bernabe Lopez garcia... citations. And report back. Xacobi (talk) 23:49, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I disagree - Talking about "inspiration" is dubious, now every country having protests claim they're influenced by Tunisia, some had in fact invented the ridiculous term "Tunisia effect", wich seems to be one of that labels that anglosaxon journalist love so much (I havent heard that term in any non-anglophone media). As Xacobi had pointed many if not all of the protests had previous antecedents (for example, Iran had been included easily, when the protests were clearly a repetition of the 2009 protests), so many of them should be deleted if we aply that measure. Now it seems that everybody look to the Tunisia events as a mirror, not only in the Arab world, but also worldwide, wich is simply non-credible. Then, there's the problem of the date, it's curious that many people defend as its sacred the date of Mohamed Bouazizi's immolation as the starting date of all the events, when there had been protests in Tunisia two weeks earlier. So, why they want to maintain that date at any cost? I dont know, perhaps because of the symbolic aspect. I personally think that it should be better to put a date not as concrete as that, something like for example: Winter 2010. On the Western Sahara issue, I repeat it the times that are necessary, I've put several sources from reputed experts (Noam Chomsky, Bernabé López García, etc...) stating that the Western Sahara events were the starting point of the current events. Are they wrong?. I've also expressed several clear paralellisms between the Sahrawi protests and the posterior ones. There are several protest included in the article that are highly dubious to be included, as for example, the cases of Palestine, Iran, Libya, etc... In the other hand, people who disagree aint giving sources or arguments, except from "I've not see it on the media", when not using the sovereignity dispute to discredit its inclusion (if thats true, same thing should be applied to Palestine or Somalia). At first, they ask for references about the W.S. protests as relationated with the others. Now that I added some ones, now they want me to get opinions of Tunisians stating that W.S. protest had inspired them?!?. Seriously??. Also, I remember that the inclusion of W.S. protest was voted. It seems that some would try to repeat discussions as many times as posible until they get their aims done. If that's the case, I would take note to act equal in every case.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 19:10, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Please see WP:OR WP:Vote WP:RS and WP:NPOV. As has been oft-repeated, Western Sahara has not been reported as part of this wave of protests, save for obscure and esoteric references. ZeLonewolf (talk) 22:09, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment: People who disagree can't give sourced arguments, because there aren't any discussing Western Sahara except the few you have exhaustively repeated over and over. That is the point. You chose not to reply to the comment above that lists numerous sourced articles indicating the Tunisia inspiration (see: Consensus needed on which borderline countries are included in this article). This is very well sourced. Also, this is a current event. It is always up for re-discussion and revision despite previous discussions, when there is new information that effects the content. --68.7.78.64 (talk) 23:17, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment: The difference is that I did not try in any moment to delete any sourced content, as you and other users had. As long as I know, erasing sourced content is no other thing but vandalism. That is the thing. As for the comment above, I do not have time or Internet to be here everyday. It is crystal-clear that some peoples aim is to avoid any relation between the Sahrawi protest and the rest of the Arab world, even when that relation is sourced, that is it, confirmed.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 18:22, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Not Linked: These protests weren't linked by any way to what marked the start of these protests: Bouazizi's act.

When protests started in Tunisia, it was following Bouazizi's act, not Sahraouis protests.

When protests spread to other Arab countries, it was following Tunisian protests, not Saharawi ones.

Omar-Toons (talk) 21:05, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I vote for "FALL 2010" as the Starting Date I did some research, and I am convinced that factually and realistically to put the entire MENA regional protests tagged to a single date is just incorrect no matter what date you choose. It makes a great sound bite story to have it be a single date and a blaze of glory, but I think in reality the situation is much more complex. I'm just going to re-paste what I wrote above in regards to weather western sahara should be included:

"Ok I did some research, and I could do a lot more of course, we'll see, but after 10 minutes of searching I found this: http://www.marxist.com/tunisia-protests-continue.htm It is an article written January 11th, 2011 three days before Tunisia's president fled by Marxy.com, the Arab website of the IMT, and gives a full account of the development of the Tunisian uprising, specifically its roots. Obviously the article starts by saying that the Tunisia protests as were seen at that moment started with the December 17th burning, but that is because the date that Tunisia started, does not necessarily indicate the date that the regional level protests started. The article talks about the months of protests that occurred in Tunisia before the current wave and clearly explains how what happened in Tunisia didn't just come out of nothing on December 18th, 2010. Mid way through the article (search western sahara) talks about the regional implications and clearly states "At the regional level, specifically in the Maghreb region, these movements follow the overwhelming mass struggle of the working class and toiling masses in Morocco and Western Sahara and Algeria." Which simply translated means, Tunisia followed in the footsteps of not only what was happening in Western Sahara but also Morocco and Algeria! So as far as the credibility of this article, I haven't read the whole thing, but from what I read it is EXTREMELY Detailed and is obviously in the point of view of arabs and has been translated directly from the "arab website of the IMT" What the IMT is, I don't know, but I could figure it out. Obviously the original article in Arabic would be more clear, but I have no idea how to read it or where that would be. So there's 15 minutes, and if you feel this has no credibility and you need more, then maybe I'll be willing to do more research, but you better at least give some ground as it is obvious in my opinion that the direction that this is going is towards the starting date truly being Fall 2010 instead of a specific single date, that is if you want to go with a factual representation of what actually is happening. If you want to go with the pretty, shinny, cut up, pre-prepared, sound bite, sell, corporate media version, then of course everyone loves the big focal point of someone setting themselves on fire in a blaze of glory, that makes a GREAT story, but factually and in regards to reality, it is just one cog in the belt."

Well there you go, I hope you all can re-consider your conventional idea of having a specific date, and instead consider going with a time period. Oh and if you think that there is going to be a specific ending date to the entire regional MENA protests then your crazy. It makes sense that each individual country may have a specific starting and ending date, but the regional MENA protests are just too complicated and there is no specific treaty or action that can take place that could possibly represent the entire region simultaneously to end or begin this historical period. Xacobi (talk) 00:50, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

This is good stuff, and I think you should compose it into prose and include it in the article in a section that describes the leadup to the events, WS included, and I agree that it is relevant. The leadup to the protest wave is certainly cogent and interesting, and we don't really have much about it in the article. However, source reporting about the protest wave consistently cites the Tunisia self-immolation as the starting point. And, a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere...it makes sense to draw that line at the same point virtually all reporting draws the line. -ZeLonewolf (talk) 01:03, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

There is an old saying "If everyone jumps off a bridge would you too?" Show me where in the wikipedia guidelines it states that we have to go with "source reporting" consistency to make our decisions about a regional starting date. Are the media sources voting, or do we get to vote? Obviously not all media sources, yes maybe the big corporate ones, but not all sources state December 18th (or dec 17th) as the start of the regional protests. They are indeed the start of the Tunisia protests I would agree to that, but the region is more complicated. Obviously if I get voted down, it really isn't that big a deal, as long as it is included, as you say, in a new "lead-up to the events/protests" section.Xacobi (talk) 01:12, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

From WP:IRS: Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in reliable, published sources are covered (see Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view). The word "source" as used on Misplaced Pages has three related meanings: the piece of work itself (the article, book), the creator of the work (the writer, journalist), and the publisher of the work (The New York Times, Cambridge University Press). All three can affect reliability. Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both.

So yes, I do think we need to go with source reporting in terms of defining a start. I encourage you to consider this very excellent example from World War I:

The assassination on 28 June 1914 of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria, the heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary, was the proximate trigger of the war. Long-term causes, such as imperialistic foreign policies of the great powers of Europe, such as the German Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Russian Empire, the British Empire, France, and Italy, played a major role. Ferdinand's assassination by a Yugoslav nationalist resulted in a Habsburg ultimatum against the Kingdom of Serbia. Several alliances formed over the past decades were invoked, so within weeks the major powers were at war; via their colonies, the conflict soon spread around the world.

Nobody is saying that this protest wave started out of nowhere! So, in that same sort of way, I strongly encourage you to incorporate the information you've dug up into the article to provide the deeper background of where this all came from and to emphasize the greater economic and political aspects behind the protest wave. BUT, I don't think you can open with "A wave of protests starting in Western Sahara in October" because that's not what's universally acknowledged as the start of the wave. -ZeLonewolf (talk) 01:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I have added a background section by partitioning off some of the other content. I hope that you will expand it. -ZeLonewolf (talk) 02:23, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Lots of good points. I certainly can't disagree with anything you've said. Thanks so much for your contributions ZeLonewolf. I myself have never actually edited a Misplaced Pages article, I have just made comments like this, and I am busy tonight. But maybe I'll get to it tomorrow and learn how to do it. Thanks again. Xacobi (talk) 02:26, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I wrote a detailed background section!! Yay ---but I have no idea whatsoever how to edit it correctly, or the time. I would just add it in with no references, but that seems silly, so I am making a new Discussion Section titled Background Section, where I will post the entire text, and ask for help. So if someone could help me with the references that would be GREAT!!! I have read some information about how to create references, and eventually I may get to it, for now I just don't have time to do any more, so I'm going to stop with what I have written as a great start. Xacobi (talk) 19:23, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Western Sahara "sovereignty dispute"

I don't think that's relevant to this article. The sovereignty of the Palestinian territories is also in dispute, and that isn't marked. The map is meant to show where protests/revolutions have occurred. If they're occurred in Western Sahara (which they have), then we should show that, but their sovereignty is irrelevant to the subject of this article. Macarion (talk) 12:53, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Support, for reasons I have stated too many times to reiterate here. Macarion sums it up quite nicely. DerekMBarnes (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Support The whole October thing is unconnected here - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:08, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Support - throwing my wrench into this toolbox.--Smart30 (talk) 16:17, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Support - Completely Agree with Macarion and the previous users, it is/was in no way instigational or influential to the protests in Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt etc and therefore not relevant whatsoever - Kapoon129 (talk) 21:35, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Support - I agree, sovereignity issues are irrelevant on this issue, as in the Palestine case. As Macarion had stated, there had been protests in Western Sahara, wich had been very similar to the posterior events in Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrein, etc... The only question is if they should be labelled as major or minor protests.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 17:08, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Updated the map. It's gone now. ZeLonewolf (talk) 02:11, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

STOP Problem! - Mis-Communication - - From my understanding of Macarion who started this "sovereignty dispute" chain, the question was wether or not the green sovernty despute lines should be removed, but there is no mention in this proposal that states that minor protests should be removed as well. So obviously there was miss communication in that the minor protests should be re-added back in. Everyone agrees that the sovereignty issue is old and has nothing to do with this, but that doesn't change the understanding of many that the current wave of protests in Western Sahara from November 2010 on have been unprecedented and are tied in with the larger MENA protests. (please see above) and Please ZeLoneWolf return minor protests to Western Sahara. Thanks.Xacobi (talk) 09:14, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

The removal of Western Sahara is not related to this discussion; see . Find a reliable source quoting Tunisian people saying their revolt was inspired by events in Western Sahara, and we'll consider putting it back in. DerekMBarnes (talk) 11:47, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I suppose that you take the same measure to other territories, I mean, you have sources quoting Iranian people inspired by Tunisian events, the same with Palestine, etc...--HCPUNXKID (talk) 19:19, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Virtually all reporting includes Iran as part of the protest wave. Not sure about Palestine. If you have a case to remove something from the list, state your argument, and gain consensus. -ZeLonewolf (talk) 01:06, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Relevant. Disputing the sovereinty of a country by taking arms and waging a war or agreeing to a UN brokered ceasefire while not disarming and not surrenderring the part of territory one controls, is a major form of disapproval of a government. This is similar to what the Libyan rebels are doing (taking arms and not surrenderring the part of territory one controls). This is what a major Western Sahara pro-independence movement, internationally recognized by a number of countries have been doing for years. Informing the map reading readership of the minor protest while not informing them of the other major form of Moroccan government disapproval is not an accurate way of reporting information to the Misplaced Pages readership. Accurately reporting anti-Moroccan-governement action (together with reporting pro-Moroccan-government action, for WP:NPOV's sake) is relevant. Semantically, the Libyan civil war is not a "protest", it is a "war". If the Libyan civil war is relevant, the Polisario-Morocco war (however frozen by a ceasefire) is relevant. Teofilo talk 11:34, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

The sovereignty dispute is a long-standing issue that vastly predates this current wave of unrest. If you have sources that discuss what specific activities in Western Sahara were sparked by this wave of unrest, then it's appropriate to add it. Currently, only one article (the one sourced) reference the wave of unrest affecting WS. -ZeLonewolf (talk) 11:42, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Unemployment in Tunisia is a long standing issue which predates the current wave of protests. Is speaking about unemployment in Tunisia irrelevant ? No, of course not. Unemployement in Tunisia is a relevant issue for this article. The whole line of thought "something predates therefore it is irrelevant" is a logically mistaken line of thought. This article is about everything which is happening now, whether it is new or the continuation of something old. Cherrypicking what to include or not is not a good service rendered to the readership. If you write an article on car accidents today, you are supposed to talk aslo about those old motorways where car accidents have taken place for years, and are still occuring today, not cherrypicking the new motorways opened during the last months where the first car accident has occured. Teofilo talk 12:00, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

2010-2011 Sahrawi protests: Major or minor?

As the protests in Western Sahara are not labelled yet, they should be. In what category do you think they fall, minor or major protests?.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 17:20, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

This was discussed yesterday in the section above "Consensus needed on which borderline countries are included in this article"--68.7.83.37 (talk) 17:36, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

March 5 protests

SilverSeren pointed out a report of a (albeit very tiny) Tunisian-inspired protest that occurred in Western Sahara on March 5. For that reason, I think it does make sense to turn Western Sahara yellow, and add it to the table with a start date of March 5. ZeLonewolf (talk) 23:09, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

And, of course, being the one that found the source, I agree as well. Silverseren 23:51, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Agree - Definitely should be included and glad there is now a concrete reason to add the Southern Provinces also called the Western Sahara to the map.--Smart30 (talk) 15:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Disagree - The protest were on the Sahrawi refugee camps, that are on Algerian soil, not on the Western Sahara, although administered by the SADR. Its curious how some manipulate info to made it agree with their personal point of view--80.58.205.104 (talk) 18:24, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Is there a source that states these protests occurred in Algeria? I'm not familiar with the issues at hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.162.0.42 (talk) 19:28, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

80.58.205.104 - you keep insisting people are reverting your edits due to some political bent, however your edits consistantly break NPOV. Please provide a citation for your edits and they can be left alone. I am not the only person to catch this, along with ClueBot and a few other editors. Golgofrinchian ≤TALK≥ 21:26, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Please dont manipulate the truth. If you have hidden aims, its your issue. You are the one breaking NPOV and doing VANDALISM, as stating the Sahrawi refugee camps on ALGERIAN SOIL as the Western Sahara. As I said, if you use source, be loyal to it, not inventing things that are not on the source.--80.58.205.104 (talk) 13:56, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Not a country

Western Sahara is not a country, so why is it on the table which lists countries? The Palestinian territories were removed, so why must Western Sahara stay? TL565 (talk) 20:01, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the Palestinian territories should be in the table also, because they're colored in on the map. -ZeLonewolf (talk) 04:25, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

From Misplaced Pages article Country (text boldfaced for emphasis):

"A country is a geographical region considered to be the physical territory of a sovereign state, or of a smaller, or former, political division within a geographical region. Usually, but not always, a country coincides with a sovereign territory and is associated with a state, nation or government."

By this definition, all the states and territories in this article are countries, regardless of sovereignty or recognition. DerekMBarnes (talk) 05:17, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Somalia status

Why is Somalia listed as a "territory"? I know the internationally recognized government controlling part of Mogadishu doesn't have full control over the country - nor does that of Libya, I might add - but that doesn't mean it's not sovereign. -Kudzu1 (talk) 05:57, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I moved it down there for the moment. I haven't done the research, but I suspect it should probably be removed from the article entirely as unrelated to this current wave of Ali/Mubarak-inspired protests. -ZeLonewolf (talk) 12:04, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Reportedly one of the demonstrators, told the media that they started the protests and they will continue until they succeed as the Egyptians and Tunisians overcame their leaders. So are you insisting that it is unrelated ? In my view, discriminating between related and unrelated amounts to Cherry picking (fallacy) anyway. Teofilo talk 12:47, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Revolutions

Can we stop using phrases like "the developments in Tunisia and Egypt have been called revolutions"? They ARE revolutions. There's no ambiguity in this. Macarion (talk) 08:40, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree. It's ridiculous. --Sherif9282 (talk) 13:16, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree 100%--Smart30 (talk) 13:35, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree. They are the definition of a revolution, it feels like we are taking away from that fact or questioning the validity of the revolts by allowing the usage of such phrases --Kapoon129 (talk) 17:56, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like a WP:WEASEL word to me. Unless there is a notable dispute from a WP:RS saying that they are not revolutions, then we can NPOV say that they are revolutions. We could also presume that editors of those two wikipedia pages have come to consensus that they are revolutions in the wikipedia sense. Otherwise, we should change their names to What has been called the Tunisian Revolution and What has been called the 2011 Egyptian revolution or to other descriptive titles. Boud (talk) 11:56, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Clarification: i meant that have been called sounds like weasel wording. Boud (talk) 21:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Macarion (talk) 15:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Relevance of wars

I wrote the following in the Western Sahara section above : :Relevant. Disputing the sovereinty of a country by taking arms and waging a war or agreeing to a UN brokered ceasefire while not disarming and not surrenderring the part of territory one controls, is a major form of disapproval of a government. This is similar to what the Libyan rebels are doing (taking arms and not surrenderring the part of territory one controls). This is what a major Western Sahara pro-independence movement, internationally recognized by a number of countries have been doing for years. Informing the map reading readership of the minor protest while not informing them of the other major form of Moroccan government disapproval is not an accurate way of reporting information to the Misplaced Pages readership. Accurately reporting anti-Moroccan-governement action (together with reporting pro-Moroccan-government action, for WP:NPOV's sake) is relevant. Semantically, the Libyan civil war is not a "protest", it is a "war". If the Libyan civil war is relevant, the Polisario-Morocco war (however frozen by a ceasefire) is relevant.

and I would like the talk page members to tell their mind on the following question :

The title of this article being about protests, is it relevant to talk about wars ? There are a number of wars in the countries shown on the map :

• Morocco-Polisario war in Western-Sahara
• Civil war in Libya
• Civil war in Somalia
• Civil war in South Sudan (including a war within the war (South Sudan army clashes with rebel group, over 100 dead)

• Relevant. Taking arms is a major form of "protest". Teofilo talk 11:43, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
• The Sudanese Civil War ended in 2005 - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 15:57, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment: If I understand correctly, you are asking if the events you just mentioned should be referenced in this article? This is about a specific wave of protests that is currently defined as starting with the reaction to the self-immolation in Tunisia. It is not about any uprisings in this part of the world or about any government protests that are concurrent with these events. The events that this article discusses have roots and causes before the time of the actual events, but that too doesn't mean the current situation of other longstanding disputes in the area are relevent to this article. Although Libya has evolved into something that resembles the events that you mention, that too does not mean those other similar events have relevance here. --216.70.233.34 (talk) 03:00, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Background Section Extension (I Need Help)

I have written a detailed Background Section for the Article, but I do not know how to edit well, and more importantly I do not have the time to go through all of the references and citations to add that in to the code. I decided it would be better not to paste the written text without the citations. Eventually I will be able to learn how, but for now I am just pasting the entire text (with the citations written in) right here. Hopefully someone can help get it to a suitable form to be put on the live page. The first paragraph, is basically exactly the same as the existing paragraph, except for one word. The last paragraph nicely connects the flow of the article to the next section. Well I pasted this in, and it looks like it kind of automatically created reference marks, but a lot of them a repeated and should be signalized, and some didn't go through the auto reference. I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually. Thanks for your help. Xacobi (talk) 19:35, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Background

Numerous factors have led to the protests, including dictatorship, human rights violations, Wikileaks cables which demonstrated government corruption, economic downfall, unemployment, and extremepoverty, coupled with a large percentage of youth within the population. Increasing food prices and rates of famine globally have also been a major reason, involving threats to food security worldwide and prices approaching levels seen during the 2007–2008 world food price crisis. In recent decades rising living standards and literacy rates and an expansion inhigher education have resulted in an improved human development index in the affected countries. The tension between rising aspirations and a lack of government reform may have been a contributing factor to the protests, as well as anti-Zionism.

The current wave of protests were not isolated, neither at the domestic nor regional levels and grew out of dispersed groups originating from ongoing movements in Tunisia, Western Sahara, Algeria, and Egypt, along with other countries to a lesser extent.

In Tunisia there was a rise of conflict where the country experienced a series of outbreaks over the past three years. The most notable of which was an uprising in the mining area of Gafsa in 2008. These protests continued for many months through rallies, sit-ins and strikes, during which two were struck dead and an unspecified number were wounded and dozens arrested. In August 2010 in the south-eastern Tunisian city of Bin Qurdan, there was a protest against the closure of the “Ras Al-Jadeer” commercial border crossing with Libya, which resulted in many injuries amongst the demonstrators and the arrest of more than 150 people.

In Western Sahara the Gdeim Izik protest camp was erected on 9 October 2010, 12 km south-east of El Aajun, by a group of young Sahrawis with the intention to protest against labor discrimination, lack of jobs, looting of resources and human rights abuses". Its population was estimated between 12,000 and 20,000 inhabitants. On 8 November, 2010 the protest camp was evicted and destroyed by Moroccan security forces, who faced strong opposition from some young Sahrawi civilians. Riots spread to El Aaiun and other towns of the territory, causing an unknown number of deaths and injuries, as well as many material losses.

In Algeria many issues have been building for years. In February 2008, United States Ambassador Robert Ford wrote in a leaked diplomatic cable that Algeria is “unhappy”, with long-standing political alienation and social discontent throughout the country with strikes over food almost weekly, and a demonstration occurring every day somewhere in the country, and calling the Algerian government corrupt and fragile. It has been claimed that during 2010, there were as many as "9,700 riots and unrests" throughout the country. Some protests were about issues such as education and health care, as well as rampant corruption.

In Egypt the labor movement has been strong for years. There have been more than 3,000 labor actions since 2004 in Egypt. The most important of which was an attempted workers strike on April 6, 2008, at the state-run textile factories of al-Mahalla al-Kabra just outside Cairo. The idea spread elsewhere in the country, promoted by computer-literate working class youths and their supporters among middle-class college students. A Facebook page was set up to promote the strike and attracted tens of thousands of followers. The government mobilized to break the strike through infiltrating and riot police. Although the regime had some success in forestalling a successful strike, an "April 6 Committee" of youths and labor activists was formed and were among the major forces calling for the big demonstration on Jan. 25 in Tahrir Square.

The major turning point to cause the escalation of the protests was the self-immunizations of individuals, starting with Mohamad Bouaziz, which catalyzed a pull of attraction for various groups in Tunisian and other societies dissatisfied with the existing system: the unemployed, political and human rights activists, labor, trade unionists, students, professors, lawyers and more. ]] This and other self-immunizations have caused dispersed groups to unite under a common unprecedented movement that gained enough momentum to create the current scope of events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xacobi (talk • contribs) 19:32, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate your willingness to do this, but I do have some issues with the text. Mainly the fact that most of the sources are marxist.com, which is an ideological site, and most probably fails both WP:NPOV and WP:RS. Giving credit (where credit is due) to unions and labor organisations is important, but these movements were not a „class struggle” (another marxist expression). This is not working class vs capitalists. It's about people vs authoritarian regimes. I suggest finding alternate sources which meet the WP:NPOV and WP:RS guidlines. And PS. It's self-immolation, not self-immunisation :) - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 07:57, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. I did have some concerns about the references myself, which is one of the reasons I wanted to hold off posting the text live right away. So this is great feedback. When writing the article I did my best to keep it as neutral as possible, but obviously some expressions sliped through. So it is definitely important to remove those, and additionally I am sure it will be possible to find additional reports and references for some if not all of the facts listed. This will take time though, and I'm not sure exactly when I will be able to get to it, so anyone is welcome to help. Xacobi (talk) 18:32, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Azerbaijan problems

10 people were detained for attempting to hold an unauthorised demonstration. Activists, inspired by Arab world protests, vowed to stage more demonstrations as they were being taken away by police outside Baku's Oil Academy.

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/at-least-15-detained-in-azerbaijan-protest-bid/

--78.2.55.4 (talk) 12:29, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

• See: Impact of 2010–2011 Middle East and North Africa protests#Azerbaijan - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 13:49, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

The number has quadrupled actually. Azerbaijan protest--Smart30 (talk) 18:03, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I think we should keep an eye on this to see if it develops any further. If it picks up steam, it could qualify for the main article. DerekMBarnes (talk) 07:03, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Israel question

There's a possible general strike next week with major marches on Jerusalem. Now it actually takes place, and the Settlers have a threatened "Day of Rage" on the same day (which is probable, but may not materialize) will this count enough to put on this page?Ericl (talk) 19:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

If it happens, then it would depend mostly on what they protest against. If it's not a call for government reform, I doubt most editors will think it warrants placement. What is your source for this information? DerekMBarnes (talk) 07:10, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Saudi Arabia March 11th Day of rage

Should Saudi Arabia be upgraded on the map from minor protests to major protests due to the March 11th Day of Rage?--voodoom (talk) 04:22, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Cited sources indicate the Saudi 'Day of Rage' really wasn't the major event some people might have been hoping for. I don't think it warrants a change. DerekMBarnes (talk) 06:24, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, unfortunately they were barely even minor protests.--Smart30 (talk) 18:23, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Middle East and North Africa or North Africa and the Middle East

The title of this article is 2010-2011 Middle East and North Africa protests I have several times had to change references in the article from North Africa and the Middle East back to Middle East and North Africa. If editors feel the need to change the article title to reverse the two descriptors, then there is a process for doing so which we all understand, however, merely changing info box descriptions and the lead paragraph seems to me to be unncessary and disruptive, and indicative of the POV of some editors. I don't believe these changes should be repeated without further discussion. Regards. Lynbarn (talk) 11:10, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Deletion of sourced content

I had to point to this issue. As I see that the date issue is controversial, I would asume good faith as we discuss the issue, but what I cannot understand is the deletion of sourced content, or I can only understand it on terms of violation of Misplaced Pages policy. Some even had used the argument of consensus, when as long as I know there was never a consensus on erasing relevant sourced content giving information to an article. I even saw in the article false statements (intencionated or not), and they had not been erased as quickly as the sourced academical info I talk about.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 19:37, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

There is a consensus between WP users that the starting point was Tunisia, and you are the only one who is opposing it.

Medias and sources cite Tunisia as the starting point, but your edits are based on a minority opinion among specialists (then sources) that it was Western Sahara.

In other words, you are starting and contributing to an edit warring.

Omar-Toons (talk) 20:54, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

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