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Report of Vandalism

Palestinian people is constantly vandalised by IP users. -- 7D HMS (talk) 12:38, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Probably better to report this at WP:RFPP. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 13:12, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Marking as resolved, page was protected by User:Favonian ( (expires 13:22, 25 October 2011 (UTC)) (indefinite)) --Taelus (talk) 13:58, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

GNAA COI, OWNing and votestacking

Hello folks. Disclaimer: I've never been involved in any 'GNAA' debates before, or similar. Anyway, yesterday, I stumbled across the article at Gay Niggers Association of America while reading up on the old Scientology ArbCom case, and noticed it seemed a little - biased. As such, I drive-by-tagged it (apologies), and after the tag was removed, attempted to make a few changes myself. I made one (admittedly incomplete) content edit, trying to swing the article back to a more neutral state. Another user, LiteralKa (talk · contribs), stepped in and re-worded the article to be pro-GNAA again. So, I looked through the edit history and associated contributions, as one does. I noted that LiteralKa almost exclusively edits articles related to GNAA et al., and so I Googled the username. Not at all to my surprise, 'LiteralKa' is 'Director of Public Relations' for the GNAA group. I didn't think that LiteralKa's editing of the article was in the least bit appropriate, so I dropped him a note about COI. LiteralKa and I had a brief talk page discussion, and we left the matter at that. However, I also had a quick look at his contributions, and spotted a few AFDs LiteralKa had been involved in, as well as a history of 'owning' the GNAA and related articles. I'm going to make the following claims, therefore:

• LiteralKa (talk · contribs) is the Director of Public Relations at GNAA.
• Therefore, LiteralKa (talk · contribs) has a conflict of interest with regards to the GNAA and related organisations, and is completely ignoring the COI policy in every respect.
• LiteralKa (talk · contribs) has recently created some particularly pointy AFDs, both of which have the acronym 'GNAA':

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Guilford Native American Association (2nd nomination)
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gridless Narrow-Angle Astrometry
• I wanted to close these as 'disrupting Misplaced Pages to prove a point', but I think it'd be best to let them run. There's also Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica, which LiteralKa has shown an interest in.

• There seem to be a host of SPAs, meatpuppets and potential GNAA members who edit GNAA articles, for example:

• Prozak (talk · contribs)
• 24.57.119.120 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• TrollHistorian (talk · contribs)
• NPrice (talk · contribs)
• Murdox (talk · contribs)

In short, then, I'm asking what we can do about this. Ideally, I'd like to get editors with a COI, like LiteralKa, to leave the GNAA article alone so that sensible, uninvolved folk can work on it. Some sort of topic ban? Community-endorsed? The Cavalry (Message me) 22:07, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

• Ban all forever. Don't forget snaphat (talk · contribs). See also this after I opposed the recreation of the GNAA article in February.  Diego  talk  22:27, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

That LiteralKa is associated with GNAA is not at all news to anyone who spends time at #wikipedia-en, where LiteralKa is a regular. As far as IRC members go, he has recently ranged from mildly constructive to mildly disruptive, but has previously had a history of being banned from that channel and socking to get around that ban, and spent a few days as the single most disruptive troll that I've seen in IRC space in the time I've spent there, which is nearly a year.

What does this mean for actual Misplaced Pages? It means that LiteralKa has proven that he has access to effective proxy services and is more than willing to sock. I would not be surprised to find that those SPIs are his sockpuppets, although it is likely that they are untraceable. At the very least, Murdox is also on IRC from time to time, so the two are either socks or meats. Sven Manguard Wha? 22:38, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the logical extension of that argument is that everyone on Misplaced Pages is secretly a sockpuppet of one dude with a lot of time and proxies. This is less of a matter of Misplaced Pages Administration and more of a witchhunt. Murdox (talk) 00:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Diego, you just accused snaphat (talk · contribs) of being a sockpuppet when all he has done is vote against one of your articles. LiteralKa (talk) 04:55, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The vote is perfectly fine, and I'll leave it clear to you: I did not know of the existence of an article on mixed-breed dogs at the time I created the quiltro article, so I created it, believing it was some kind of "different" race when it is not. Snaphat's vote there is perfectly fine, yours is too; however, it is obvious you both are part of that so-called, racist organization I won't bother to spell.  Diego  talk  04:58, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Diego, you're going to have to provide evidence that he is a member of the Gay Nigger Association of America before throwing accusations around. We've been over this before. LiteralKa (talk) 04:59, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Quite simple, user that edits very, very sparsely from 2005 votes in an AfD shortly after the director of public relations of the troll organization votes, too. Since there are no public records of who the members of the organizations are, I have no more proof than this.  Diego  talk  05:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Diego, that is the flimsiest argument I have seen from you yet. Why would that have anything to do with the GNAA except for the fact that I happened to vote a little before him? If that's what you see as justification for banning, I sincerely hope that you never get the power to ban here. You should notify someone when you're accusing them on ANI, BTW. You're grasping at straws here, Diego. Give it a rest. LiteralKa (talk) 05:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and because you wouldn't notify him, I did. LiteralKa (talk) 05:29, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not related to GNAA. I didn't know it existed until the accusation. It is actually pretty clear who I am if you google my username. I'm not making an attempt to hide this information. snaphat (talk) 12:37, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• Ignore conflicts of interest exist everywhere because every single Misplaced Pages editor is involved with some other organization or interest, and they frequently edit topics of that nature. It's total hypocrisy for you to single out some who may be fans of the GNAA. death metal maniac (talk) 22:51, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Note above user is User:Prozak. Sven Manguard Wha? 23:12, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

• I'm tempted to say the AfDs should be procedurally closed. The ones that need deleting can be restarted with a nominator who isn't being obviously pointy. The AfDs weren't started in good faith, we should do the equivalent of order a mistrial. —Tom Morris (talk) 22:53, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
  • I would let the AfDs run. If the subjects were obviously notable, then speedy close would be reasonable, but they're not. Also, even if the nominations are pointy, the nomination statements themselves are reasonable in pointing out the deficiencies of the articles.. I don't see the point in policy-wonking this for the sake of it. Obviously if there is a sock issue on the AfD that needs to be sorted, though. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:25, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
• Oh, the yearly GNAA infestation <yawn>. SOP as follows:

  Congratulate them on another successful op. Then nuke from orbit, salt the earth, close any procedures or related procedures started by GNAA puppets, Checkuser the bad guys, Get steward cover if necessary. --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:56, 25 July 2011 (UTC) it's the only way to be sure!

• Blocks all round, then? The Cavalry (Message me) 23:08, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
  • They're not here to help build an encyclopedia. They're here for giggles. So yes, blocks all around. Let them get their kicks somewhere else. Sven Manguard Wha? 23:10, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
    • Get rid of the problem; yes.  Diego  talk  23:13, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

• This is ridiculous. You're not assuming good faith on *ANY* of these accounts, and this really seems like a campaign against anyone who's commented in an anything-less-than-negative light on a GNAA-related article. I don't feel I've done anything wrong, and while I cannot account for other users, what's mentioned here hardly seems to warrant a permanent ban. If you look at past votes, they are clearly two-sided, and those who "lost" are now just trying to execute a vendetta against those who "won". Many of the accounts that have been listed are legitimate editors who edit on a number of subjects, and have participated in GNAA votes... Light-editing does not make a user a SPA or sockpuppet. nprice (talk) 23:19, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Oh! I didn't realize this was a topic ban, and after a discussion on IRC, not everyone who's put in their input seems aware of that either. If we do this, we should at least do it by each "suspected" user account, based on its own merits. You can't just do a blanket-ban on a group of people you've arbitrarily grouped together because of a perceived connection. Each user should have the right to contest any actions done to their account, by their own merits. What's happened here is that a list of editors has been compiled who have legitimate edits, but few enough of them that SPA can be cited the moment they do something pro-GNAA. In the last DrV, there were plenty of "keep deleted" votes from accounts with the same status. If this happens, the moment any sort of block is placed, a certain editor who's pretty vehemently commented in this "incident", and HIS group are going to take advantage of the situation they've orchestrated to get the GNAA article VfD'd again. nprice (talk) 23:41, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
  • One more comment - if you block any supposedly pro-GNAA people from editing, as well as their detractors, who does that *LEAVE* to actually edit the article? Admittedly, it is very polarizing, and this would just arbitrarily unbalance things one way or another. nprice (talk) 23:50, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

It leaves neutral editors to edit it, who edit for a hobby, rather than for a cause. Some people are interested in organisations like this without being a part of them - I studied sociology at university, as well as computer science, so I actually find it rather enthralling. The Cavalry (Message me) 00:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

It also leaves the multitude of editors who are forever biased against GNAA as a result of the many deletion debates. You know this. LiteralKa (talk) 00:17, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• Comment " is completely ignoring the COI policy in every respect." I'd like to see evidence of this instead of accusations being thrown around. I have attempted to follow the COI guideline to the best of my ability. "LiteralKa (talk · contribs), stepped in and re-worded the article to be pro-GNAA again" I'd also like to see evidence of how I made it pro GNAA. As for trollhistorian (talk · contribs), he hasn't edited since 2007, calling into question the amount of research that Cavalry actually did. LiteralKa (talk) 23:43, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

You're the PR man from GNAA. Editing in the interests of public relations is frowned upon. Why don't you follow Misplaced Pages:Suggestions for COI compliance, for example? Why do you consistently remove the 'COI' tage from the article, rather than waiting for a neutral editor to come along? It's all a bit fishy, if you ask me, and you're damned close to being blocked for being a single-purpose account. The Cavalry (Message me) 00:08, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Single purpose account? I have been editing for years across a wide variety of subjects. I find such accusations baseless, offensive, and childish. Coming from an arbitrator, no less. I removed the COI tag because no specific issue was taken with the article, aside from "LiteralKa edited it" (see WP:COI#Non-controversial_edits (mainly no. 6).) Additionally, you're going to have to prove that I'm "editing in the interests of public relations," instead of just claiming that I am. I have worked to provide reliable, verifiable sources for the article. LiteralKa (talk) 00:15, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• IDGI Firstly, the implication that TheCavalry has "never been involved in any 'GNAA' debates before, or similar." is a pretty false statement considering that's he's commented upon it multiple times in the IRC. Secondly, I'd like to further understand why I'm not a "sensible" editor considering that outside of attempting to reboot the GNAA article in my own userspace (which earned me a quickly overturned block) I've never made anything approaching unsensible edits on-wiki. That said, I don't have a complete and comprehensive understanding of wikipedia's version of due process and most of my knowledge of wikipedia's various bureaucratic branches comes from being referred to them continually. I understand ignorantia juris non excusat, but I'd appreciate it if you made it a little clearer what I'm being accused of. TIA. Murdox (talk) 00:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• NB: If anyone feels I closed this inappropriately, feel free to open it again. The Cavalry (Message me) 00:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I would rather see this section closed by an administrator, considering the seriousness of the charges you brought. Closing because there is "too much drama here" is bogus; what did you expect? You can't just open up a huge can of worms and then just say "Nevermind!" FYI, I am a totally disinterested party who has never edited or even read the article in question and has never had any dealings whatsoever with any of the parties involved, nor do I particulary care about the outcome of this incident, except that it be resolved properly and competently. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:48, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I don't have any problem with someone who originally brought an issue to ANI deciding to withdraw it, whether they're an admin or not. Sometimes one realizes that a particular issue is generating a great deal of noise, and not enough signal to bother with. I'll leave it as an exercise for the student to determine if that's the case here, but in the meantime, if Cavalry wants to close out what he opened, far be it from me to stand in his way. (Sidenote, I'm using the pronoun "he" in the non-gender-specific manner.) --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 01:54, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Cavalry is an admin. LiteralKa (talk) 02:01, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I am an administrator, and have been since 2007, so I thought it perfectly acceptable to close it myself - but I digress. I think we all dislike it when this becomes a drama-board, and the last thing I want to invoke is drama. The Cavalry (Message me) 12:41, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm strongly tempted to close the AfDs summarily, as their intent is intentionally disruptive. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:07, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Is it really disruptive to put articles that were created with the clear intention of "diluting" the GNAA disambig page up for deletion? I figured I would leave it up to the community to decide if they were notable for this very reason. LiteralKa (talk) 02:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I'd have to say that yours is the WP:BURDEN to demonstrate "dilution". The other articles, whether their subjects are notable or not (and that's still arguable...elsewhere), all bear legitimately-named organizations which just happen to bear the same initials. I'm not an attorney, but this strikes me as a prime example of scenes á faire. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 02:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Created by the same editor during one of many GNAA arguments, one of which was mentioned in an academic paper once and another had nothing but passing mentions in sources. LiteralKa (talk) 02:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I have to admit, I took a quick look at the histories of these articles and was going to snappishly post a response to LiteralKa along the lines of "these articles have nothing to do with the 'GNAA' controversy; they were created in 2005." But I looked a little deeper (after noticing that both articles on completely unrelated topics were created around the same time by the same user), and I now see the point LiteralKa is making. (Geez, I hadn't realized that GNAA has been a topic of discussion here since 2005!) I still think it would be better if these AfDs hadn't been created or had been created by someone else, but for what it is worth, I now see a somewhat greater substance to them than I might have initially. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Could we please start assuming good faith on my GNAA-related edits now instead of just assuming the worst? I try to follow the rules as closely as possible when editing related pages. Also, I created {{GNAA History}} so that people could read up on the GNAA-Misplaced Pages relationship in as much detail as possible. LiteralKa (talk) 02:20, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I've tried to be fair to you. In fairness to me and others, you didn't make this point anywhere that I've noticed either in the AfDs or in this discussion, though it is one strongly in your favor insofar as the issue of intent is concerned. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:24, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

That was because the point was made already by someone else. (In hindsight, though, I probably should have been clearer in the nominations for each.) LiteralKa (talk) 02:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I hate to say it, but I have a hard time assuming good faith based on the comments contained in the very diff you link above. And I'm still going to have to hold by my earlier comment: because the articles at AfD appear to name valid, albeit arguably notable, organizations or entities that just happen to bear the same initials as yours, you will have the WP:BURDEN of showing the articles were created specifically for (to use a marketing term) brand dilution. And having said that, I'll now step back and watch. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 02:55, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

As LiteralKa has noted, those claims are also my own, so the WP:BURDEN falls upon my shoulders as well. The fact that many find the GNAA distasteful isn't a secret, and years ago, those who found it distasteful sought to push the Gay Nigger Association of America to the back of the bus disambiguation page. One of these users was Astronautics (formerly known as Silsor). On December 7, 2004, Astronautics expanded the disambiguation page with three entries that didn't have articles at the time. On April 2, 2005, an anon removed the articleless entries from the page, and Astronautics's immediate reaction was to create articles on the Guilford Native American Association and the Gridless Narrow-Angle Astrometry in order to ensure that entries couldn't be removed from the page ever again. Astronautics then decided to belittle the Gay Nigger Association of America by having it listed last: . Astronautics even tried to push GNAA as an acronym for the Great North Air Ambulance Service. Another user involved in similar activities was Brian0918. Brian0918 supported the idea of listing disambiguation page's entries by their perceived significance. When the tables turned on him, he pointedly added an articleless entry listed alphabetically over Gay Nigger and made an equally pointy comment: "alright, then, alphabetical order is fine." When Sam Hocevar removed those articleless entries, Brian0918 took a page out of Astronautics's book and created a Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica article. Those articles weren't created out of good faith; they were created solely to belittle the GNAA on a disambiguation page. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 04:25, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Considering that the most flattering description I've recently heard of Misplaced Pages is "the place people go to win bar bets", and that Misplaced Pages itself won't allow Misplaced Pages articles to be used as reliable sources, I'm fairly well convinced that no one is going to take ANY article found on Misplaced Pages as God's Own Truth™, so an argument regarding irreparable harm to ANY of the article topics under consideration here is, in my mind, laughable at best. And now that I've said all that, here's what I see as the acid test for this case. Are the editors in question willing to accept a keep outcome on any or all of the AfDs in question? And what, if any, would the overall effect be on GNAA, other than having to share space on a disambiguation page? Yes, this is a serious question, and I'd appreciate a serious answer. And on a sidenote, I'd like to thank Michaeldsuarez for taking the time to lay out a clear, concise argument supporting his position...even though there are some who won't agree with it, it's a refreshing change from the dramatics I've seen lately on various noticeboards. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 13:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and to address the issue of OWNership, I'm pretty sure that I have abstained from editing the GNAA article as much as I used to once it passed the deletion review (ie. entered mainspace.) Before that, my intention was (and still is) to help develop a genuinely acceptable Misplaced Pages article. LiteralKa (talk) 02:25, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

As an experienced editor entirely uninvolved with any disputes about the other GNAA, I think that this tempest-in-a-teapot is exceptionally unfair to the Guilford Native American Association. This is a solid, worthy organization that has existed for decades, and reasonable people may well disagree about its notability by Misplaced Pages standards. However, the Guilford group has done nothing that justifies its online reputation being dragged into this "inside baseball" dispute on Misplaced Pages. It is unjust and distasteful. They've had an article here for 5-1/2 years. Consider the impact on uninvolved people who stumble into this debate while looking for information about a group that was founded 25 years before Misplaced Pages was. Cullen Let's discuss it 06:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Based on the view stats, I'd reckon that doesn't happen much, if at all. LiteralKa (talk) 06:27, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

So, if its only three parents of Native American kids with problems, rather than 20, that's OK with you? Cullen Let's discuss it 06:32, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Seeing as how one of them is me, and the other two are related to the page deletion, yes. LiteralKa (talk) 12:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Google reports that there are an average of 36 searches per month for "guilford native american association". Our article shows up at the top of that search. The potential for collateral embarrassment to this group is real.Cullen Let's discuss it 15:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The "collateral embarrassment" you mention would be made no worse: its "relationship" to the GNAA would be no more apparent than it already is. LiteralKa (talk) 16:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Would you then agree the converse is also true...the existence of the Guilford Native American Association, and hence its article, causes no "collateral embarrassment" to GNAA? --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 18:23, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

• I'd like it to be known that I am not any way related to GNAA. I simply voted once on some article AfD of diegos. Since it is very easy to look up who I am, so there is absolutely no reason why this accusation should have occurred in the first place. What can be done about this? snaphat (talk) 12:45, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I have to agree here. I don't see that you're a part of GNAA in the same way as LiteralKa, and it's LiteralKa's conduct I have an issue with in any case - everyone else seems tangentially related, and I'm not 'anti-' or 'pro-' GNAA. The only reason I've issued a block so far is that NPrice (talk · contribs) turned out to be a reincarnation of a blocked user. The Cavalry (Message me) 12:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks you! I'm not concerned with what is going on here beyond making sure I don't wrongfully get banned or sanctions against me as I've done nothing wrong. snaphat (talk) 13:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Cavalry, can you please provide diffs of LiteralKa's alleged meddling in the Gay Nigger Association of America article? LiteralKa's revisions after your own revisions appears fine to me, and LiteralKa provide clear edit summaries. Can you please back your " stepped in and re-worded the article to be pro-GNAA again" comment? Maybe I'm not seeing what you're seeing. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 13:30, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Its not specific edits, because the edits themselves are individually small and apparently harmless - but they add up to have a cumulative effect. I find it amazing that he's removing COI tags added by neutral editors - and bizarrely citing Misplaced Pages:COI#Non-controversial_edits as a reason for doing so. Ask yourself this: Why is the Head of PR, and the 'Head of Misplaced Pages editing' (easily accessible through Google searches, seeing as 'LiteralKa' is the username he uses all over the internet, for everything), for GNAA, editing the article at all? This is a man who wrote - just four months ago - Jimmy "Babyrapist" Wales... convicted sex offenders known on Misplaced Pages as "Sysops"... forcefully ejaculating into MuZemike's pedophile mouth.... And let's not forget the wonderful quote that The Wikimedia Foundation refused to return our requests for comment. Saying only that "those dumb niggers" do not "deserve a fucking article". The man who wrote this is apparently an editor without a COI? Would we allow this from the Head of PR for any other organisation? The Cavalry (Message me) 14:05, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

That sounds like a COI to me. Given his background, LiteralKa should not be editing the article at all. snaphat (talk) 14:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

When LiteralKa removed that COI tag, there hasn't been any discussion about COI since the previous discussion on COI and neutrality concerns was settled several days earlier. Cavalry didn't make any attempt to re-initiate that discussion, and there wasn't any answer to my call for evidence. Silver_seren also noted the lack of further discussion. There isn't anyone who takes anything say on the GNAA website at face value. It's unlikely that anything said on that website will harm the Wikipedians mentioned. LiteralKa uses the GNAA website in the same way I use Encyclpedia Dramatica: To be funny and entertain visitors. LiteralKa didn't use those press releases to out anyone. Should we ban anyone who mocks Misplaced Pages on Encyclopedia Dramatica or the Misplaced Pages Review? Only one thing matters here: How does LiteralKa influence the Gay Nigger Association of America article? LiteralKa's offsite activity doesn't have any effect on that article, so that activity is irrelevant. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 15:28, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

With the greatest of respect, I disagree, and I do not have to cite specific edits, because the conflict of interest is plainly obvious. Your diffs above are from several weeks before I even came across the article. This isn't about WR, or ED - bringing those sites in is a fallacious argument, and a rather obvious attempt to obfuscate the issue with drama. The only thing that matters here is: should the Head of PR of an organisation be the main editor of the article for that organisation? The Cavalry (Message me) 15:51, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean by, "Your diffs above are from several weeks before I even came across the article"? I'm seeing a revision by you from July 8, 2011. You added the COI tag on July 14, 2011, and that talk page I had mentioned had only ended the day before. As the PR Head, LiteralKa has the best motivation to keep the article neutral and free of crud from those who despise the group. Why don't you point out how LiteralKa made the article less than neutral? Can you? You haven't done so so far. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 16:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Really? You're talking about allowing PR reps to be the main editors for articles because you think they're neutral? The Cavalry (Message me) 16:41, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I have to concur with ChaseMe: this is incredibly peculiar reasoning on MichaelD's part. PR heads, by definition, want to shape coverage of their subject to fit their own agenda, which is unlikely to meet WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE in particular. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:52, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

If PR people were truly neutral, we wouldn't have 1/4 the number of UAA reports we get. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:53, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm afraid I have to counter Michaeldsuarez' argument. As the self-styled PR man for GNAA, how can LiteralKa not have a COI when editing the GNAA article? I will stipulate that WP:COI specifically states that a voluntarily-disclosed conflict of interest should not be used as a weapon against the editor. However, WP:COI is also quite clear that an editor should avoid making changes to an article unless it helps the project as a whole, and given both the size and the heat emanating from this discussion, I can't see any help to the project as a whole. In fact, based on what I'm seeing, his editing is damaging not only the GNAA article (due to inherent bias) but several other articles as well, simply because the names of the articles have the unmitigated bad fortune to create acronyms of "GNAA". Add to that the comments from the GNAA Web site quoted above, and to me it adds up to a fairly damning case, very little of which is circumstantial. And before I go any farther, I'm also going to stipulate that I do NOT have a dog in this hunt. I have no association with GNAA (in any of the incarnations under discussion...hells, in at least two cases I couldn't even pass the physical!), I have not edited any of the articles, and I have not participated in any of the AfD discussions. My focus here is to examine the core issue and see if there's any sort of mutually-agreeable solution that won't wind up involving significant admin (or higher) action. Sadly, I fear it may be too late for that last, but that won't stop me from giving it a go. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 16:01, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:COI - "Adding citations, especially when another editor has requested them." LiteralKa (talk) 16:38, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The COI template doesn't mention citations, and I can tell you right now that #6 doesn't apply in the case you're talking about. If another editor objects for any reason, then it's a controversial edit, and you shouldn't be making it at all. The Cavalry (Message me) 16:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The way COI works is this way... If an editor has a COI but complies with all policies and guidelines, and other editors do not object to their edits, then we allow their editing of the main space of the article (we even encourage it, really). If, however, the editor is being disruptive (either through conflicts with all other editors or violating policies and guidelines), then that editor can be blocked or banned. If we can verify either through technical or behavioral means that sockpuppetry has been occurring, that seems to me a valid reason to do both in this case. -- Atama頭 18:21, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I've got no prior involvement with this article, but having read through this thread, I'll just add that LiteralKa seems to have a pretty transparent COI regarding this article, and as such should (at the very least) publicly make that clear; and preferably should avoid making any edits to the GNAA article at all. Minor edits are OK but not if they're controversial (and if someone reverts them, that's a clear sign that they are). Robofish (talk) 11:28, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

This recent edit by LiteralKa is non-neutral and the edit summary does not accurately describe it. Given the history and the ongoing problems, I think that LiteralKa and Murdox, listed as GNAA president, should not be editing the article directly, nor should they be involved in AFDs related to GNAA. It would be sufficient for them to use talk pages to suggest edits.   Will Beback  talk  20:24, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

It's one thing to say that something is "non-neutral." It's another to say why. LiteralKa (talk) 20:27, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm terribly sorry but my ADHD makes it very hard to follow the thread of a huge discussion like this without losing track of the argument. Could someone point out to me specifically which edits on the GNAA article are non-neutral or controversial, and why I need to be blocked from editing the GNAA article? My vague understanding of COI is that it doesn't apply if the edits aren't controversial. Murdox (talk) 20:46, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

If you're editing an article about a group of which you're the president then you should really become familiar with the relevant guideline. WP:COI.   Will Beback  talk  20:57, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Why do you keep avoiding the issue of citing specific edits and saying how they're POV? LiteralKa (talk) 21:05, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't see where I've violated WP:NPOV, WP:NOT, or WP:COPYVIO. In fact, I've taken a somewhat "hands off" approach to editing the GNAA article since it made the move to mainspace but I don't see why this means I should be blocked from making edits to the page I feel are appropriate? By all means, if you could cite specific edits or lines of policy it would help me understand your position more. TIA. Murdox (talk) 21:12, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The edit removed text illustrating the perception of the organization's name as racist, it removed (sourced) information about the group's antagonism toward blogs and Misplaced Pages, and another mention of the intentionally offensive nature of the organization's name. Either you're being disingenuous about the slant you're trying to put in the article, or unable to recognize it, either of which is a very valid reason to ban you from further involvement in editing the article. -- Atama頭 21:08, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

The "racism" was discussed later in the article. Same with the antagonism bit. Is there a problem with removing redundant material all of a sudden? LiteralKa (talk) 21:11, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Well that's true. The article does more-or-less cover it anyway. At the very least, it looks like a POV edit on the surface, and the edit summary was pretty vague (explaining that it was removing redundant statements would have been better). So I can see why Will might consider that a biased edit but I suppose it isn't. -- Atama頭 22:13, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

In hindsight, a better edit summary probably would have helped. LiteralKa (talk) 22:16, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Conclusion, decision

I think the consensus above (among neutral editors) is that LiteralKa and Murdox - and any other editors who hold positions within the GNAA - should not edit GNAA-related articles, except to remove blatant vandalism or post requested edits on the talk page. The problems with their involvement in editing the GNAA article is plainly apparent. To that end, and to clarify exactly what the problems are, I'd like to propose that: "LiteralKa and Murdox are banned from editing articles related to the GNAA, except to remove blatant vandalism, remove BLP policy violations, or fix spelling and grammar errors. All other edits should be requested using the {{Request edit}} template. I think that this is more than fair, and is in line with current community views on this level of COI editing. It also allows LiteralKa and Murdox to focus on improving other topics, while still allowing them to contribute to the article in question. I'd appreciate the viewpoint of neutral editors on this - ie those not pro- or anti-GNAA. The Cavalry (Message me) 14:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

NB: Someone also suggested a full topic-ban, but I'm not sure if that's a bit harsh. The Cavalry (Message me) 14:52, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

We're struggling to get neutral editors involved, so I've mentioned this proposal to a few people who have commented above - but no-one who is openly anti-GNAA. I've also contacted Lugurr, who might come over from simple to comment. The Cavalry (Message me) 22:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

LiteralKa has been permanently blocked and the consensus shaping up amongst the users who've actually taken an independent look at the evidence presented about my COI (instead of lumping me in with LiteralKa) is that it does not negatively affect my contributions to Misplaced Pages. Can we have this motion quashed already? Murdox (talk) 06:38, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Support

1. Support topic ban based on inherent WP:COI of editors in question. Their editing history, commentary here at ANI, and AfD nominations of articles bearing names that can contract to the same acronym (whether or not those articles meet WP:GNG), demonstrate to me their inability to remain neutral when dealing with GNAA. I would therefore suggest adding a "broadly construed" qualifier to the topic. The GNAA article itself, along with those nominated at AfD, will stand or fall on their own merits; my concern is the maintenance of the Misplaced Pages project as a whole, and allowing editors with a clear and demonstrated COI to continue down the path they've selected does more harm than good. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 14:59, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   In my defense, I would like to point out I have never ever ever put an article up for AfD at any point of my wikipedia tenure. I feel heavily that I'm being put in the same basket as LiteralKa despite an essentially spotless on-wiki record. Murdox (talk) 17:44, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Murdox, you're a single purpose account. Every single one of your edits has been GNAA-related - that's not exactly a spotless record seeing as you run the organisation. The Cavalry (Message me) 18:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   That's not necessarily a bad thing. I'm editing something I feel I can write for wikipedia about instead of doing what I usually do which is edit small gramatical errors and dead links as an IP. Murdox (talk) 18:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   No, but it's not a spotless record. Why not edit about things that aren't GNAA-related - 4chan, or LOIC, or the quite excellent tech-rapper Dan Bull? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk • contribs) 18:30, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   I don't actually know much about any of those subjects except I think running LOIC and/or DDOS is illegal or something? I dunno. Murdox (talk) 23:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Could you explain why not banning me from AfD/DRV would be a bad thing? It's not a vote, after all. I'd just be adding my two cents. LiteralKa (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

2. I would Support restricting the editors to non-controversial editing of the articles, as outlined at WP:COI#Non-controversial edits, and as proposed above by Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry. I don't support a full topic ban because I don't see that evidence of actual disruption has been shown, in spite of the close affiliation of the editors to the organization. I support the restriction to non-controversial editing because our guideline suggests it anyway, and because other editors have objected so strongly, but not because of any actual behavioral problems that I've seen thus far from LiteralKa and Murdox. -- Atama頭 17:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
3. Support, obviously, as nominator. I'd be in favour of a 'broadly construed', perhaps, but I feel that these editors could really help with hacker culture style articles, and I don't want to prevent them from doing so. I don't have a problem with them being involved on the talk pages, or in AFDs, because their comments there won't have a direct impact on GNAA-related articles. The Cavalry (Message me) 17:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
4. Support, clear COI violations. Kaldari (talk) 23:22, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   If they're "clear" how come I have yet to see any edits cited? LiteralKa (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   The 2 deletion nominations are clearly listed at the beginning of the discussion. Kaldari (talk) 23:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   And this relates to me directly editing the article how? LiteralKa (talk) 23:49, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   It's not an article ban, it's a topic ban. In this case the topic includes articles that share the same acronym. Kaldari (talk) 23:56, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Including Gay Nigger Association of America! LiteralKa (talk) 23:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

5. Support something or other, maybe not the full topic-ban, but come on, I've come across the PR agents for an organization/person complaining at the BLPN about their edits being undone, the username is blatantly COI and, in general, it results in a speedy delete for the article in question and a permanent block for the user, so what's going on here? Personally, I find GNAA funny like 4chan or all of the other stuff that says "fuck you authority, control , Big Browzer and so on" but this is really OTT COI. CaptainScreebo 23:36, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   The Pope clearly has a COI editing articles about Catholicism, the bush, you are beating about it. CaptainScreebo 23:36, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Good thing the pope doesn't have an account! LiteralKa (talk) 23:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Stop being such a gay nigger and take it like a man. CaptainScreebo 23:43, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Please do not engage in personal attacks. LiteralKa (talk) 23:49, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Then don't set yourself up for them; not that I necessarily endorse it, but are you really surprised someone would say that? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:13, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   Yes, do please stop engaging in personal attacks. It is not only hypocritical, but against policy. Simply put- it suggests much about the neutrality of the voter and doesn't strengthen supporting sides arguments in the least. snaphat (talk) 00:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   Yes, please shut up, if anyone could point out where the personal attack took place that would be useful, as contributors to Misplaced Pages, I assume that most of you do not take Wikipedian to be a personal attack, so saying 'stop being such a gay nigger' to someone who is the PR guy for the Gay Nigger Association of America can hardly be construed as a personal attack. Thanks but really this devolves into wiki-stupidity and pointiness. CaptainScreebo 01:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   Again, please no personal attacks. snaphat (talk) 01:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   Again, stop talking through your hat and repeating yourself, there is no personal attack. (Unless you want there to be one). CaptainScreebo 01:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   Captain Screebo, you name called LiteralKa and told me to shut-up. I saw the warning on your talk page and the discussion on LiteralKa's talk page. I know that The Cavalry is already aware of the initial comment and such. snaphat (talk) 01:44, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

6. Support; had this been raised at WP:COIN on any other issue (i.e. a company), there wouldn't even be a question. Perhaps these users should shadow Orangemike and see how he handles articles where he feels he has a conflict of interest; his way of dealing with it doesn't create this kind of drama, or indeed any at all. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:13, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
7. Support only for LiteralKa. I took an extensive look through the article history for this year and see nothing Murdox has done wrong with regard to editing the article. However, LiteralKa is a bit of a different story. On the article, the only thing I see wrong was that he removed the COI tags. However, his deletion nominations for other GNAA acronym articles are why I am supporting this- those appear to be motivated by COI. If the latter hadn't been done, I would not support this decision. I would like however to voice my concern that anti-gnaa editors could try to have a field day with the article. I, myself, would rather he be allowed to edit the GNAA article and simply not allowed to AfD or edit other GNAA acronym articles. snaphat (talk) 00:38, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
8. Support only for LiteralKa; on the condition that Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry can provide a neutral administrator or editor to protect the article. Although this looked like an interpersonal dispute at first, Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry has since shown me more instances than just the AfD of blatantly COI-inappropriate editing: edit-warring, COI tag-removal, POV edits; more breaches of trust than I can excuse. Although LiteralKa's edits are not inappropriate outside of the context of COI (indeed they can look pretty good; as I said in my erstwhile oppose vote, for a long time I did not know that they had a COI), they are inappropriate in the framework of COI good practice. As for Murdox, I know that he edits a lot on GNAA and little else, but these seem to be non-controversial cleanup edits, which I have a hard time supporting a ban for. Quigley (talk) 00:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
9. Support, as the conflict of interest at hand is too great a conflict of interest. I'm also in favor of bringing in neutral administrators to enforce this. (I also support the deletion of the article, but I can't imagine a sufficient amount do. This is a joke and not worth our time.) hare j 01:20, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
10. Support full-ban as there is no way for Mr. Kaiser and Murdox to be a net positive to the encyclopedia; there's nothing to do in their defence.  Diego  talk  01:28, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

    You have been trolled relentlessly by the GNAA in the past, and thus are by no means a neutral and unbiased editor, especially considering the position you're taking in this discussion. Murdox (talk) 02:19, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

    He's still entitled to his opinion, Murdox, as are you. The Cavalry (Message me) 02:30, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

    Just trying to point out the possible WP:COI. Murdox (talk) 02:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

    There is no COI because I'm not affiliated to any racist organization, AFAIK. You, OTOH, are affiliated to the GNAA; and no, I haven't been trolled relentlessly, and anyway, how would you know that? Oh, right... :-)  Diego  talk  05:05, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

11. Support - based on the proposer's reasoning, and the precedents that have been applied to thousands of other editors with COI over the years. I am particularly unconvinced by Murdox' reasoning for not actually contributing anything to this project outside of the very area where COI is the strongest. --Orange Mike | Talk 12:40, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
12. Support only for LiteralKi, as Murdox' edits haven't been very detrimental. Perhaps Murdox can get a warning and a directive towards our COI guidelines. LiteralKi's COI is problematic, as evidenced by The Cavalry, so a topic ban is the common-sense solution. ThemFromSpace 13:44, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
13. Support only for LiteralKa. The sanctions seem perfectly reasonable, and just what we would expect from any other editor with a conflict of interest. However, I am willing to give Murdox the benefit of the doubt as their contributions seem to be within the COI guidelines. — Mr. Stradivarius 18:48, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

Oppose you people are just looking to cause trouble. I see nothing wrong with what these editors have done with the article. They have kept a NPOV and cited all information added to the article. If we went around preventing anyone who had anything to do with a certain topic from editing, there would be nothing on this site. Kids in the sandbox (talk) 17:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC) - Struck, as user is linked by checkuser to hundreds of abusive sockpuppets. The Cavalry (Message me) 19:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

1. Oppose unless "adding citations to uncited statements" is added and "GNAA-related articles is defined as Gay Nigger Association of America, and Goatse Security." Additionally, as neither DRV or AfD is a vote, there is no harm in specifically banning participation in them. (Perhaps banning us from nominations only?) Why don't we ban all Wikipedians from editing Misplaced Pages while we're at it? LiteralKa (talk) 17:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
2. Oppose I've made this point before, but I've specifically endeavoured on the GNAA article to keep WP:NPOV, WP:NOT, or WP:COPYVIO. I've taken a somewhat "hands off" approach to editing the GNAA article since it made the move to mainspace but by all means I don't feel WP:COI applies to me when I've already consistently shown that I can edit the article sensibly, uncontroversially, and without bias. A topic ban doesn't quite seem to follow the spirit of WP:COI. Murdox (talk) 17:43, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Oppose I've watched developments on the GNAA article for a long time without knowing that LiteralKa or Murdox were connected to the organization, largely because their contributions to that article were not outwardly partisan or promotional. In fact, they are exemplars of what Wikipedians should be, in that they cited every statement, strictly adhered to NPOV, and calmly addressed the concerns of fanatical anti-GNAA people on the talkpage. Apparently there is some bad blood between old-time Wikipedians and the GNAA, and as a result, many Wikipedians tend to assume the worst in every action from these two users (such as their AfDs of obviously anti-GNAA articles created in bad faith). However, to uninvolved editors like me, looking at the presumed evidence with no prejudice against these two users, I see no egregious violations of COI policy or anything else that would warrant this proposed ban. These editors, probably because of their outside involvement with the organization, are the only editors who would edit an article on such an unpopular group constructively. As long as they strictly adhere to WP:V and WP:RS as they have been doing so far, LiteralKa and Murdox's presence on GNAA articles is crucial to maintaining NPOV against the legions of users who would like nothing more than to have the articles deleted. See support rationale. Quigley (talk) 18:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Quigley, would you feel better if we nominated some uninvolved admins/editors to protect the article? There are several editors who'd happily volunteer and have talked to me about it privately, some of them are those who originally improved the article. The Cavalry (Message me) 22:25, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   That wasn't his concern: "I see no egregious violations of COI policy or anything else that would warrant this proposed ban." LiteralKa (talk) 22:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   I'd still like his input as one of only two neutral editors who voted 'oppose'. The Cavalry (Message me) 22:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Two things. One: that's not the only "neutral editor." Two: it still won't change his opinion that I am " exemplar of what Wikipedians should be" and that he "see no egregious violations of COI policy or anything else that would warrant this proposed ban." LiteralKa (talk) 22:41, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   All other things being equal, to have non-COI editors is better than to have COI editors, so your suggestion is good on the face of it. But to gain my support for a ban on those two, I need to see specific diffs of serious disruption resulting from the COI; ideally a pattern of disregard for the points at WP:AVOIDCOI. Quigley (talk) 22:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   @the Cavalry: Out of curiosity, who's the other "neutral editor"? You claim that there are only two. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 23:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

3. Oppose – Those in favor of the topic ban have neglected to provide specific diffs or evidence of wrongdoing. Instead of answering my questions, the Cavalry and others decided to focus all of their attention on one of my more tangential comments: , . I've provided straight answers. When can I expect straight answers in return? --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 18:42, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
4. Oppose The Cavalry has a clear agenda here, this is not for the benefit of the wiki. incog (talk) 19:42, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
5. Oppose. For fuck's sake, I used to be an admin here, I have tens of thousands of edits on several Wikipedias, including this one, yet I got banned from IRC for being “associated with the GNAA”. Will whoever is in charge of that ridiculous crusade please stop and start doing constructive stuff? Will I be also banned from editing Debian-related articles because I was project leader some time ago and my edits could be biased? Seriously, fuck the bureaucratic bullshit I need to cope with everyday. Sam Hocevar (talk) 20:39, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Sam, this isn't an anti-GNAA discussion - it's a 'person X has a COI and refuses to accept so' discussion. I'd vote keep in an AfD, I just don't want PR people removing COI tags from the article. What I've suggested above is actually less strict than the COI guideline asks them to do. The Cavalry (Message me) 21:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Yes this is an anti-GNAA discussion, regardless of the original intent. Several of those GNAA acronym articles were created or protected by an admin who had a grudge against GNAA and probably me (he accused me of cheating at the Misplaced Pages chess championship, so fuck him, too). AfD'ing them is just attempting to clean up the polluted namespace, yet it is used as an argument to show a CoI. LiteralKa probably has every reason to care about the GNAA article's high quality and because it's such a hot topic no one else will probably dare touch the article. What is suggested here is simply to get rid of the people who care enough to research good material for the article, because most of the others were bullied out of it (need I remind you that there was a long “no GNAA-related discussion” policy on `#wikipedia-en` and several ops would ban on sight?). 2 months from now Diego, who of course has no CoI here, or other people, such as the ones who believe I should be banned from `#wikipedia-en` just because I’m “related” to those people, will AfD it. I'm not saying there is premeditation, but there will certainly be causality. Sam Hocevar (talk) 20:00, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   Oppose Can someone explain to me where edits from either LiteralKa or Murdox have been BAD to Misplaced Pages in any sort of way. This is seeming more and more of personal opinion rather than an actual violation of WP:COI. Wildthing61476 (talk) 20:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Changing my view to a support based on these comments, and per Quigley's notes in the Support area. Wildthing61476 (talk) 13:16, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   Trying to delete Misplaced Pages content solely because it shares an acronym with your organization is about as blatant a violation of WP:COI as you can get. Kaldari (talk) 23:50, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Well, let's see. One of them is going to get merged, and the other kept. I'd say that I improved the encyclopedia through those. LiteralKa (talk) 23:51, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Just because your abusive behavior wasn't completely successful doesn't mean it wasn't abusive behavior. The fact that you are unwilling to acknowledge your COI makes me more certain that a topic ban is appropriate. Kaldari (talk) 23:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

   Let's see, one of the AfDs was completely legitimate and valid. The other was in questionable territory, namely due to a severe lack of significant coverage, which the AfD fixed. LiteralKa (talk) 00:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   The AfDs could be completely legitimate and still constitute a conflict of interests. If you have something to gain from the articles being deleted, you should have asked someone else to nominate them. Kaldari (talk) 00:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   The AfDs don't fall under WP:COI, so I don't see what you're getting at. LiteralKa (talk) 00:09, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   "There are no firm criteria to determine whether a conflict of interest exists, but there are warning signs." The warning signs have been presented and I believe they are convincing. Kaldari (talk) 00:17, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   I should also add that WP:AVOIDCOI, point two, is pretty clear. Just because they're not in your industry, it doesn't mean you're not competing for the trademark 'GNAA' initials. The Cavalry (Message me) 13:47, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

6. Oppose for Murdox I cannot find anything he did wrong at all. Is there anything? It doesn't seem fair to me to lump them together. snaphat (talk) 00:40, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
7. Oppose There has yet to be any clear examples of a violation of WP:COI. Just because a user has a COI doesn't mean that they are not allowed to edit the article they are affiliated with. It just means that they are only able to make certain types of changes to the article and not to add material that advocates and promotes the subject. There is no evidence that either of the users in question have done such a thing, so this topic ban proposal is entirely fruitless and just plain vindictive. Silverseren 04:57, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   Let me also note that the proposal seems to be some sort of attempt to restate the COI policy so that there can be more active punishment for any mistake in regards to the article. It is entirely redundant and, again, pointless. Silverseren 04:59, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   SS: Just so you've got a better explanation of what exactly ires me here, it's listed at User talk:Quigley#As requested re:GNAA. The Cavalry (Message me) 13:21, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   Just FYI, I've added my two cents and rebuttal to CMLITC's points on that page. I understand you didn't want to clutter up the discussion page, but is there any reason you couldn't have made those points within this thread directly to Quigley? Murdox (talk) 17:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   I supplied them to his talk page, rather than here, because originally they were directed as a response to Quigley's questioning. The Cavalry (Message me) 18:34, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

1. The first thing I would point out is that practically none of the stuff listed there is about Murdox. You seem to just be going after him because he's a part of GNAA. As for your points in order: Silverseren 23:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   1. The fact that the two of them edit around a set of articles doesn't mean anything if you don't have any proof that they are editing unconstructively within the articles. The reasoning for the AfDs has been explained and it is a reasonable enough reason. Thus, your point #1 lists pretty much nothing. Silverseren 23:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   2. I really don't think the "competitors" that COI is discussing means other groups with the same acronym. Again, the reasoning lsted by LiteralKa for the AfD nominations makes sense. So, again, this has nothing to do with COI. Silverseren 23:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   3. You list no examples, so i'm just going to skip this. Silverseren 23:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   4. The corporation thing is a minor quibble and would certainly seem like an edit war over something that has no real relation to the content in the article. As for the Prodego edit war, Prodego was completely and absolutely wrong there. He seems to think that sources from GNAA can't be used for basic information, like we allow for every other article on Misplaced Pages. This was already being discussed on the talk page as it is. The removal of the COI tag goes both ways. If you add it, then you have to list on the talk page what edits specifically are from a COI point of view. This did not happen and we do not perpetually have a COI tag on articles just because someone affiliated edits it. And the text removal, as LiteralKa said in the edit summary and on the talk page is already discussed in the rest of the article. Including it in the lede is both a weight issue and, I do think, a POV pushing of negative material about the GNAA. The only thing i'm willing to give you is the addition of the category, that was wrong to do. But the rest of your "evidence" is, to put it bluntly, utter crap. Silverseren 23:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   It might be "utter crap", but it seems to be a concern for the 13 users above - nearly all of whom are uninvolved. The Cavalry (Message me) 23:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

   Because what you're asking for in this poll is essentially what WP:COI says anyways, except it doesn't ban other actions, so people largely don't have an issue with it. However, what they're not considering is that this is just WP:CREEP applied on a user level. It's baseless and is extremely pointless. I'm going to be watching the article and the talk page after this to make sure that this isn't an attempt to make the article entirely negative POV-wise. It is well known that portions of the community dislike the GNAA and are constantly out to try and make the article negative, but not encyclopedic. Silverseren 23:52, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Comments

Could we identify an edit (aside from removing the COI tags, I won't do that again) that inserted POV? The only edit that people had problems with was explained and accepted as NPOV. LiteralKa (talk) 17:48, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I've moved the above comment to a comments section, rather than cluttering up the straw poll. In short, you are focussing too much on individual edits, and the individual edits aren't the problem: it's the fact that you have a COI. The Cavalry (Message me) 18:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

"A Misplaced Pages conflict of interest (COI) is an incompatibility between the aim of Misplaced Pages, which is to produce a neutral, reliably sourced encyclopedia, and the aims of an individual editor. COI editing involves contributing to Misplaced Pages in order to promote your own interests or those of other individuals, companies, or groups. Where advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Misplaced Pages, that editor stands in a conflict of interest." I can't speak on LiteralKa's behalf, but I've shown straight up that I don't have a conflict of interest. Murdox (talk) 18:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure how to take your assertion that the President of X does not have a conflict of interest when editing an article about X. It is an unusual assertion. The Cavalry (Message me) 18:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

The very thrust of WP:COI is that the specific affiliation does not matter, it's the user's conduct on-wiki. Quigley put it much more eloquently than I ever could, but the fact of the matter is that I would only have a Conflict of Interest if I put promoting the GNAA above contributing towards Misplaced Pages. I believe my behaviour on-wiki shows that: No, I have not put promoting the GNAA above contributing towards wikipedia. After all, I hardly have to worry about being "fired" from GNAA if I don't promote them on Misplaced Pages. :) Murdox (talk) 18:54, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah, but you're mistaken: How do you know you don't have an unconscious bias? Several uninvolved editors have pointed this out to you, especially that your editing pattern displays a clear COI - but you're not quite getting the hang of it. Ignore the wording of the policy, for a moment, and think: If we can't trust the anti-GNAA members to edit the article without bias - even when they are editing for the sole benefit of Misplaced Pages - how can we trust you? The Cavalry (Message me) 19:30, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

This is a really unusual case for me, and I deal with a lot of COI cases. Generally, when we deal with COI issues, one of two things are happening. Either an editor has a COI, but is still able to edit productively, and nobody objects. Or, the editor has a COI, and is causing disruption, and people object. This is a case where an editor has a very strong COI (the president of the organization no less) but no actual disruption has been shown, and yet a number of people are still objecting to it. I'm not sure I've ever seen this before. I think that a fair compromise here is the one proposed above, that editors with a COI be asked to restrict themselves to uncontroversial edits. Technically, anyone can be banned from anything as long as a community consensus is found for doing so. WP:BAN says that it must, or should be in response to repeated disruption (it's difficult to tell which) but we can possibly infer that multiple people saying "please stop editing due to your COI", and the editors continuing anyway, could be considered disruptive. This is a weird grey area for me. -- Atama頭 19:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, why can't we let anti-GNAA editors edit the article if their edits are by all means NPOV and intend on improving Misplaced Pages? Quality and bias are measurable quantities in Wikipedian terms. Furthermore, my "editing pattern" is an incredibly vague term. I'd like to see which uninvolved editors have specifically taken issue with my edits and behaviour, and not lumped me in with LiteralKa's behaviour on-wiki. In regards to what Atama is saying, I understand it's a weird situation. However, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with what amounts to putting community consensus over actively improving Misplaced Pages. It would be much easier for me to understand where the oppose votes were coming from if I'd made grandiose, self-publicising claims on the article but the fact of the matter is I've utterly strived to play by Misplaced Pages's rules on this article because it's obviously an area which generates heated emotions. I'm willing to take into consideration other people's points of view, but I'm not willing to consent to a community-imposed ban for playing by the rules. Murdox (talk) 19:53, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Off-wiki canvassing

This account has been canvassing this discussion off-wiki. Could whoever is running the account please not canvass their supporters? This isn't a vote. The Cavalry (Message me) 19:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any canvassing. Could you link to a specific tweet? LiteralKa (talk) 19:49, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, you're reaching here. I don't see how a link to the New York Times or nads.org is canvassing? LiteralKa (talk)

Just here, July 26th at 1:31am. Links to shortcode ending in cPpM724, which links directly to this discussion. The Cavalry (Message me) 20:09, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

"Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!" LiteralKa (talk) 20:13, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Then check the main account? The Cavalry (Message me) 20:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Still no. LiteralKa (talk) 20:22, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Check harder please. The Cavalry (Message me) 20:45, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

And this fails WP:CANVASS how? (eg. since when does posting a raw URL on the Internet violate any policy.) LiteralKa (talk) 20:48, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Have you conidered that it's a spambot account, simply reguritating random webpages? GiantSnowman 20:54, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry until or unless a bunch of meatpuppets show up out of nowhere to support with their brand new accounts. But if that does happen it would only serve to hurt the GNAA in this case, so I think it's worth mentioning here so that LiteralKa can prevent it from happening, if it's at all possible. -- Atama頭 21:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

We've already had MeepSheep show up, and the GNAA article has started up on SimpleWiki in the last few hours, under a new user (no prior experience with wikis, judging by contributions) called 'Lugurr'. I'm also a little confused as to how the Tweet disappeared so quickly... The Cavalry (Message me) 21:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

And you attribute... a tweet to a sockpuppetteer noticing something controversial on a large, public noticeboard and a guy deciding to create a cross-wiki article? LiteralKa (talk) 21:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Lugurr isn't creating a cross-wiki article, he's just active on simple. You're saying that you don't know how the article on GNAA on simplewiki has started, that it's just a coincidence? The Cavalry (Message me) 21:23, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Not that far-fetched considering the recent controversy over this. LiteralKa (talk) 21:25, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

The controversy is just on-wiki though. I'm trying to work out where/how Lugurr was notified of this discussion. He says it was ED, but I can't for the life of me find where on ED it was. I've just asked him if he recognises your username: if he does, then he's probably found it off ED, 4chan, or the like. If he doesn't, then I'm stumped. The Cavalry (Message me) 21:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

And why would he recognize my nickname if you are concerned about a "Gary Niger" canvassing? Do I smell bad faith? LiteralKa (talk) 21:38, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

• I've closed Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Guilford Native American Association (2nd nomination) as a disruptive nomination. Anyone who would like to re-nominate it for a good faith AfD should feel free to do so after a reasonable interval. As for Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gridless Narrow-Angle Astrometry, there seems clear consensus for a merge to Space Interferometry Mission and I've closed it according, choosing to disregard any possible incorrect motivation for nomination in order to deal with the article appropriately. DGG ( talk ) 00:17, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

LiteralKa indefinitely blocked

Full explanation here. Hersfold 00:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I am completely and utterly against this block. All of the reasons listed are not blockable reasons. There is a consensus for a semi-topic ban in this discussion, that is not a consensus for an indefinite block. It has yet to be proven at all that they have been editing disruptively in the subject areas. The use of an account with a different name on Simple Misplaced Pages, without using an account over there with the current name, is not sockpuppetry. Having to reveal a COI interest over there is one thing, but it is most definitely not enough for an indefinite block. This is an utter perversion of our rules. Silverseren 01:41, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Silverseren, I was against the block also until I looked at the talk page of Lugurr on Simple English Wiki. When asked if he was LiteralKa, he changed how he writes and lied about it.  snaphat ► 02:05, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well since you agree there was a consensus for the topic ban despite being against it, that can be enforced if/when LiteralKa is unblocked. However I don't quite follow how there would be a lack of evidence of disruption if there is consensus for a topic ban based on said disruption. Regardless, there is demonstrable evidence that LiteralKa is using these two accounts to create the impression of greater support for GNAA on multiple wikis, which is by definition sockpuppetry and disruptive. (after edit conflict) And per Snaphat's comments, the behavioral evidence of sockpuppetry with intent to disrupt is very compelling. Hersfold 02:09, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Hersfold: Is this an ArbCom-sanctioned block or one solely issued by you? ThemFromSpace 02:22, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The Arbitration Committee did not discuss this, it is not an ArbCom block. The Cavalry (Message me) 02:40, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Hersfold: I wouldn't necessarily say that it was to "create the impression of greater support for GNAA". It most likely was just to conceal COI.  snaphat ► 02:38, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support block A strict reading of WP:COI confirms that anyone can come to Misplaced Pages and promote their outlook indefinitely, provided some very easily satisfied and common sense procedures are followed. However, when such a blatant case of COI is revealed, and it involves an editor politely pushing their outlook to promote a trolling group over an extended period, it is appropriate for measures more strict that WP:COI to be applied. Johnuniq (talk) 05:12, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
• Good block. Having a COI is one thing. Using undisclosed alternate accounts to lie about it is quite another. 28bytes (talk) 05:23, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

  Yes; having undisclosed alternate accounts on a different wiki. Ironholds (talk) 14:14, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

  Are you for real? This is somehow acceptable behavior for an editor just because the page on which he lies to an arb about his multiple accounts starts with simple: instead of en:? 28bytes (talk) 14:45, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support block Misplaced Pages was being manipulated by this trolling organization as part of their internet activities. Mathsci (talk) 05:24, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose block badly formed block reasons, don't justify a block (they may justify a topic ban). Points 1 & 2 of the justification do not support a block. 3.1 is a discussion of policy. 3.2 does not support a block. 3.3's rationale for involving the English wikipedia is tenuous in the most generous reading, and tendentious in a common reading. 3.3 is a rationale which ought to have emerged from the community; which it has not, and further, goes only to a ban from GNAA related articles. Let Simple Wiki clean their own house, and note any COIs for their editors on their own project. Fifelfoo (talk) 09:35, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose block. Last time I checked, having an account on two wikis and undertaking the same actions with both is neither sockpuppetry nor a blockable offence unless those actions are themselves problematic. The case for an indefinite block has not yet been made. Ironholds (talk) 14:14, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose I do not approve of what he has been doing here, but the topic ban is sufficient. I think there is not consensus for the block, Hersfold, so perhaps you ought to unblock DGG ( talk ) 15:56, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose The reasons for this block are thin, and it seems punitive. Is that the tone we want to set for this community? death metal maniac (talk) 15:57, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Tokerdesigner, again

I've had the misfortune to get embroiled in monitoring Tokerdesigner (talk · contribs), who I recently blocked for a month due to a serious failure to disengage from mutilatio ex equus mortis. It appears that Tokerdesigner has, in a completely unsurprising move, chosen to use his month off to compile yet another list of injustices on his talk page. Could someone who has sensibly remained uninvolved have a look and decide what, if anything, needs done about this? Cheers. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 10:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Dude is paranoid, obviously. At this point, even a brief skim though his contribs makes it abundantly clear that the (drug addled?) person behind he username is basically unfit to edit constructively here. I wish it weren't so, but this guy has been given every opportunity and then some. Increase the block to indef and walk away.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 11:21, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

...but MfD the user page. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:27, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

mutilatio ex equus mortis, from the people that brought you Romanes eunt domus. People, if you are going to make up fake Latinisms, at least try to make them grammatically correct. – ukexpat (talk) 15:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Nil illigitimo clockwork, costus illigitimus (I'm sure you get the gist lol) Mjroots (talk) 19:04, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The whole fun of pidgin Latin is to mutilate it. :) Nevertheless, I'm not entirely comfortable with increasing the block myself right now. If the soapboxing in question gets to Biblical proportions like the last one then so be it. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 16:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I fully support an indef block on Tokerdesigner. He seems incapable of comprehending and abiding by our content policies if they happen to contradict his own, shall we say... unique ideas about the proper way to smoke pot. This has been going on for years now and is unlikely to ever stop. I have been involved ina content dispute with him in the past and so will have to recuse myself from admin action here, but hopefully someone will step up and take the necessary action. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

*cough*At least the editor didn't print a book with an incorrect Latin title. ;) - SudoGhost 17:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Latine dictum, sit altum videtur. Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 18:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Tokerdesigner's soapboxing is clearly not going to stop. I suppose I should be flattered to not be considered a sockpuppet in his recent user talk page screed despite having blocked him for a week last month. I'd support an indefinite block and revocation of his user talk page privileges (since he's just using that page to continue the same behavior that got him blocked). I'd do it myself, really, I don't think anything I've done should make me involved. As long as nobody has a reasonable objection or expectation that he'll suddenly change. -- Atama頭 18:30, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Is it worth considering a topic ban on cannabis related topics, rather than an indef? How are his contributions in other areas? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Nonexistent. This is an WP:SPA, every edit I've looked at, going back several years is aimed at promoting his philosophies about safe pot smoking and/or discouraging the use of cigarettes or joints. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:25, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

These are his article edits not related to cannabis, out of all of his non-deleted edits:

Out of 1,330 edits, 37 of them were to articles that weren't related to cannabis. (There were also a handful of talk page edits to non-cannabis topics also but I didn't bother to document them.) The majority of those edits were minor. It has been 5 months since his last non-cannabis edit. It's pretty safe to say that he is a single-purpose editor and a topic ban would be a de facto site ban. -- Atama頭 21:40, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. It's been a while, but that he has contributed to other types of articles indicates that there may be some point to topic banning rather than just outright banning / blocking him. Largely SPA, but not entirely. His problems seem related to the topic.

He might chose to walk away from other topics if topic banned, but perhaps a mid-term topic ban (1 month? 3 months?) with a community review to be based on his contibutions elsewhere in the meantime? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I guess a topic ban can be attempted, maybe he'll work on music-related articles. That seems to be the only topic that he has made any real substantial contribution to that isn't cannabis-related. I'll note that even many of those edits seem to have a good deal of WP:OR in them, which is part of the problem that he has had with his cannabis-related work also. If he is banned, and violates the ban (as I would predict he would) then it would probably just lead to an indefinite block anyway. -- Atama頭 23:24, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

This has suddenly changed to an SPA issue? Would that address the topic of this thread which is epic soapboxing and incivility? Mjpresson (talk) 23:37, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, because if an editor is causing trouble that is exclusive to a particular topic area, sometimes they can be productive outside of the area, that's the whole point of having topic bans. A ban is easier to support if we can expect that the editor could be productive elsewhere, and one way to show the possibility of that is to show what work they've done on other topics (a real SPA would never have had any activity anywhere else). As I said, though, my experiences don't make me optimistic about the potential for the topic ban to work, but violating a topic ban would lead to an indefinite block anyway, so either way we can stop the disruption. -- Atama頭 00:44, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support A topic ban or indef block. Looking over his contributions I think he does more harm than good to project. A topic ban will, in my opinion, probably lead to a future indef block but if we want to be conservative then that would be the way to go. Nformation 00:51, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

• My only concern with a topic ban is that his problem appears to be... well, um... mental. I'm no psychologist or psychiatrist, but it seems obvious that the guy is slightly unstable, and probably suffers from paranoia problems (which, as far as I understand, is a possible side effect of smoking too much reefer). I don't say that to disparage the guy, but to make the point that even if he complies with the topic ban (which I'm guessing will be a large "if") and moves to another area, all we'll be doing is spreading the problem around to other areas. That being said, I'm not adamantly against letting the block expire and enacting a topic ban, and I'm certainly willing to give an editor every possibility (to the point of slight unreasonableness, actually), but I'd hate to see him running around stirring up shit and driving otherwise productive editors away before we really give up on him.
  — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:53, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

This isn't entirely appropriate as a line of discussion. If there's a topic ban from the community, they can stop editing or find other areas to productively edit. If they edit disruptively in other areas then that's handled. The objective of the topic ban is to handle the glaring problem but leave open a path to recovery and redemption, if they can move into a productive editing mode. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:46, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Right... like I said, I'm not adamantly against the topic ban idea. Go ahead and try it. <shrug> I'll just hang on to my "I told ya so" for later, is all.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 02:51, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support - I have little confidence that it will work, since he's more a SPA than not, but it's worth a try. If he is topic banned, his user page needs to be cleared of all cannabis-related material. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:08, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support - I'd already said that a topic ban might be worth an attempt, but I suppose I might as well make a formal approval of the idea. -- Atama頭 07:17, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support, (indef. block preferred, can agree to ban, but...) myself being one of his obsessions. Mjpresson (talk) 00:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support, but not really. If it's going to be a topic ban, I suggest it be a "sudden death" style ban. Just one violation and an indef block is applied. This should apply equally to article space, talk pages, and his own user space, which should be purged of all the ranting an raving that is currently collected there as part of his soapboxing crusade. I predict he will rapidly violate any such topic ban and will end up blocked anyway, so what the hell. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support — Indef block, or a topic ban if there is no consensus for an indef block. I suggest we avoid using words that refer to the editor's mental state or possible drug use in this thread. EdJohnston (talk) 02:10, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Insertion of Foul and Abusive words and repeated vandalism on Mohun Bagan AC

Dear Admin, This is nothing new but it is really reaching its limit. For the past few days user 14.96.114.8 has been continually been editing the article on Mohun Bagan AC by inserting foul and slang words inside the article. plz feel free to verify the same from the user's profile as logs of only insertion of inappropriate and racial slurs will show that his foremost object of visiting Misplaced Pages is to vandalise its property. User 115.242.174.192 has been mass erasing data from the same article. again plz verify the same. Hope you will do the needful and protect wikipedia. thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by S.sinha04 (talk • contribs) 06:20, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

What do those words mean exactly? As a non speaker of the language it's hard to gauge whether it's vandalism or not. Nformation 09:02, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

The IP has made precisely 3 edits. The first may or may not be problematic, the second appears to be an unsourced change, which would be hard to call vandalism, and the third edit is possibly problematic. I tried to use Google translate, which said it was in Italian then promptly failed to provide a translation. Unless the OP tells us which language this is, there's not much we can do, even if the editing is problematic. Mjroots (talk) 14:50, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

The IP is located in Andra Pradesh India, so one of two languages seems right, either Telugu or Sanskrit.

I checked some of the text in a Sanskrit dictionary | here and got some matches, but nothing coherent. We may need a native reader / speaker of Sanskrit (or Telugu). @-Kosh► Talk to the Vorlons►Markab-@ 18:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Um, I don't believe there are any living native readers or speakers of Sanskrit.  :) The Mark of the Beast (talk) 20:17, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I think they're mostly names actually -though I'm not to sure about "Khanki". Could the complainant tell us what he thinks the words are and what he thinks they mean?Fainites scribs 22:46, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Just noticed the IP hasn't been notified. Will do that now.Fainites scribs 16:18, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Personal Attacks, Harrassing Behaviour, inappropriate warnings and inappropriate use of Twinkle by User:FaktneviM

FaktneviM (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been harassing User:Jeffro77 incessantly on Jeffro77's talkpage over the last couple of days, apparently as a result of a content dispute elsewhere. I stepped in yesterday as a relatively uninvolved third party and tried to get FaktneviM to back off. That failed, and he is now edit-warring with me on my own talk page.

Warnings given to FaktneviM

• 3RR: by User:Bidgee
• Harass4im: by User:Danjel (me)
• Harass3: by User:Danjel (me)
• Personal Attacks & Inappropriate Warnings (non-template message): by User:Jeffro77
• Refactoring/Editing other users' comments (non-template message):

Personal Attacks/Harassment on User:Jeffro77

Jeffro77 has been tremendously patient in dealing with FaktneviM on his talkpage. There is a long threaded discussion at Jeffro77's talkpage which is littered with personal attacks. First, there are two inappropriate warning templates: for personal attacks ] and for promotional material ]. Later Jeffro is accused of being a "frivolous" hypocrite ]. A barnstar was given, then revoked ]. FaktneviM has also edited Jeffro77's content, requiring Jeffro77 to undo the changes ]. I would go on, but it should be pretty clear that Jeffro77 is weathering a storm. The section on his talkpage stands for itself.

Comment: It has been particularly frustrating trying to work with FaktneviM. I'm aware there's a language issue, but it is not the underlying cause of the problem here. For transparency, the initial content dispute is located at Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses#Jesus reference mislead. FaktneviM has also claimed that the Userboxes on my User page constitute "preaching", "offensive, uncivil, hatred, lofty and other very bad things", "hatred and pride" and "bombing with propaganda, spreading hatred thoughts and intolerance".--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:17, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

He just doesn't seem to understand (I don't mean the language difference).--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:34, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

On 26 July, FaktneviM also lodged a fraudulent complaint against me at Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism. He did not advise me that he had lodged the complaint. Unsurprisingly, it was summarily dismissed as unactionable.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

3RR on my talkpage

FaktneviM is now engaging in an edit war with me on my talkpage.

Revert 1: Revert 2: Revert 3: Revert 4:

...and an inappropriate warning:

He is aware of WP:OWNTALK. It has been mentioned to him frequently, for example ].

More than Language Background other than English issues

While I'm conscious that there are some clear issues of literacy/fluency in written English, I think this goes beyond that. This is a matter of maturity and an inability to conform with some pretty basic rules for collaborative conduct on wikipedia. If there is anyone who can speak Czech (?), then by all means see if you can get some sense out of this situation. -danjel (talk to me) 11:04, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I also warned FaktneviM about his restoring of comments removed by Jeffro77 on his user talk page but has clearly ignored the warning given. Bidgee (talk) 11:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

BWilkins has given another warning as an uninvolved admin. If this starts again I'm sure someone will block, but for now let's hope that settles at least the user talk warring. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 12:04, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

+++++
Hello all. I just firstly (and very last too) read this ´page´ (I try to avoid perfect adjective what I recently thinking about this all).

I could fully and sincerely confirm all, what is stated here, is truth. That is the one side. Reverse side of the situation is: These all "diffs" just show for me another evidence and typical example ´How Misplaced Pages´s editors, not only admins (but all, in general) ´pluck things out of context´. I don´t expect you read all that "stories" (I mean ... all topics, .... with examining whole text ... not only one diff out of context). But consider, I now seen again how this all society and communion is full of hypocrites and evil-doers. If you would like, ... block me! .... I will be free again of this mock encyclopedia. I have no interests lost another expensive time and my weak mental health here anymore.

If Jeffro saying here, ´he is frustrated´, I have to say the same! We both are absolutely incompatible personalities as I speculated this reason on his talk page. Although, in the last discussion on his talk page, which is mentioned here ... We were not in a quarrel. It was partially most productive talk, which we both have so far! I also pleased him several times for deleting private link, which he used only! for purpose to damage my interests. Reason was NOT, as he claimed - avoiding misleading others. That was only repeatedly said excuse. In fact, NOBODY, excluding me, and people to whom I would like to tell them, ... Nobody other has right to know my personal values ... on ARTICLE TALK! Jeffro used this tactic with the link for continuing in attacking.

I also call for Danjel´s conscience (NOT ONLY his) in contact with me. User_talk:FaktneviM#At_minimum

See for more ... my User Page, ... my Talk Page

But I will not responding anymore. (Maybe only in case of some very big + well-mind surprise)

--Sincerely ♥ FaktneviM (talk) 05:25, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
+++++

The link to which FaktneviM refers was in this edit at Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses. The context for the link (a diff from a Misplaced Pages subpage, and not a 'private' page) was also provided.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:54, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

You should be ashamed for that. I said it already in a talk, but again. You should show big shame for that. Very bad from you, indeed. Shame you! --Sincerely ♥ FaktneviM (talk) 11:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

FaktneviM has now requested speedy deletion of all of his/her user subpages, including that one. I have complied with the request, as it is policy that users can have their own subpages deleted on request, but I do wonder why that request has come now. JamesBWatson (talk) 10:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I wanted to finish my Misplaced Pages account some time before these problems starts. However, problems with my pages was like catalyst for me and I had to (in fact, I hadn´t, but I want) end all my activities vigorously and conclusively. For that aim was some cleaning of my pages quite useful. --Sincerely ♥ FaktneviM (talk) 11:16, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

FaktneviM's posts to Jeffro77's talk page have been absurdly persistent and unconstructive. At first I though that the solution would be a ban from editing that page, but looking at other pages I see that the problem goes much further and deeper than that. FaktneviM has also started harassing Danjel, following that user's good faith attempt to help. FaktneviM has also responded to good faith and perfectly civil posts from another editor at Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses in a paranoid manner, evidently seeing a personal attack where none was intended or given. He/she has a history of responding angrily and uncivilly to any editor who expresses a view he/she doesn't agree with, using such language as "stupidity, pride and nasty behavior", "despicable", and so on. It seems to me that the editor has serious problems with trying to collaborate with other editors. There are also other serious problems, such as the editor's apparent inability to see that his/her belief that something is The Truth is not a valid criterion for how an article should be edited, repeated use of inappropriate warning templates in a vindictive manner, etc etc. I am not sure that the editor will ever be capable of fitting into Misplaced Pages's methods. JamesBWatson (talk) 10:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

<blockquote>FaktneviM has also started harassing Danjel, following that user's good faith attempt to help.</blockquote>....Please. Show me at least ONE act from Danjel, which you consider as ´good will´. I felt (+and history revision of my talk page, +and his talk revisions history page, ... both prove it clearly) only bad-will. Nothing, what I recognize as normal behavior if someone wants tell me something. He was clearly bad+bad+bad+bad. See that history revisions carefully. Nothing positive from him. Another lies (as good will from other editors on Article Talk page - Where? That was only provoking me and personal attacks. Tell me - What was at least ´little good´ there. Again. Nothing. --Sincerely ♥ FaktneviM (talk) 11:33, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I read some of that again and probably some cleaning should be useful. Problem is, that, when I tried to change culture of Wikiproject members discussion,-including me, I was always taken aback and frustrated, because not-wise Ẅikipedia rules do not allow edit comments to (something like general cleanup of quality talking) for example very suitable for most of WikiProject sites discussion. But when I tried to change it, always someone Undid that. Because Misplaced Pages rules are so rigid, and goes against sense of civility. I still hope ´my cleaning plans´, which every time someone stop will fulfill someone other (for example here) . But generally, for this rigid encyclopedia is no hope for future.<blockquote> if other editors agree, I ''could'' clean up the thread somewhat.--AuthorityTam</blockquote>. It´s funny that if I tried several times same changes, always were opposite and hatred. Just absurd encyclopedia with irrational procedures and moreover different rules for different wikipedians. Just absurd. And as Jeffro saying with his favorite idiom,- "It´s irrelevant". So bye. --Sincerely ♥ FaktneviM (talk) 11:16, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

FakteviM, It sounds like you want to make a Right to Vanish request. Follow the methodology on the page and don't log in, don't think about this account/wiki, don't respond. The thread will die of old age and get forgotten. Hasteur (talk) 12:44, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but I am not sure what I really want. Surely I leave from -WikiProject Jehovah´s Witnesses, and all other project, where I was active too (-Christianity, -Latter Day Saint movement), -several non-religious related topics, which I previously edited. This probably in summary results I leave from English part of Misplaced Pages. Still my "global account" have 51 living accounts, in 8 I was actively involved). Since I leave English part, I´ll probably go to my home wiki after return from wikibreak, and other wikis, which seems me much normal and productive, than here. I am quite convinced, that main problems were not in language. That´s get even worse. But mainly about community, which is hardly to comprehend for me and I am not willing to accept hypocrite rules specific for English, which do against sense of that recommendations. Other problems with editors, with which I was not able to mutually cooperate productively. Even with efforts was rather disruptive for me and perhaps for them too, and in summary, it was lost of time and energy. Gain of experiences seems quite good, but for me is ´too low reward´. In this sense, I suppose, "Right to Vanish" will be applied on English only and not globally for all wikis. Or reversely? Other option I´ll fully retire from all WikiMedia projects. Who knows? --Sincerely ♥ FaktneviM (talk) 13:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:RTV, fine, but in the meantime harassment continues...

I'm going to assume that FaktneviM will exercise his/her right to vanish tomorrow, per the statement on his/her talkpage.

However, RTV applies to people in "good standing", and the still continuing harassment of Jeffro77 (for example refactoring on another user's talkpage ] and another spuriously given Barnstar User_talk:Jeffro77#A_barnstar_for_you.21) does not speak well to this. As before, I don't think that it is unreasonable for FaktneviM to immediately STOP all communication with or about Jeffro77. -danjel (talk to me) 07:39, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

There is a small issue with the text given with the barnstar. However, FaktneviM's refactoring in the diff linked above seems more an effort on his part to cease hostility, by striking inappropriate comments that User:Lighthead had made against me, (albeit misguided per Talk page guidelines). (Lighthead has befriended FaktneviM online as a member of the same religion as FaktneviM.) Lighthead has been 'monitoring' the dispute and started making inappropriate comments at User talk:FaktneviM#Email and then at User talk:Lighthead#Response, however FaktneviM requested that Lighthead stop; as a concession to FaktneviM's request, I also struck my reply to Lighthead. (I'm tentatively optimistic that there will not be any collateral from Lighthead.)--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:39, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Disturbing shoot first policy

I am seriously concerned about the block that was issued for 206.190.68.46 back in January. Since when does WP policy have us blocking IPs for a single edit, that wasn't even close to be serious vandalism. It was simply the addition of unsourced information, which happens all the time. We should be more welcoming to IPs, and not "shoot first", assuming bad faith. If you check the edit history of this IP, it is a public IP, and all most all of the edits have been helpful. I just wanted to raise this issue, since it frequent affects how I edit, since I spend much of my time in coffee shops, airports, etc. Before you tell me to try "getting an account", please cite the WP policy that requires this. Thanks! 206.190.68.46 (talk) 19:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and yes, I realize this is a bit stale, but I just saw the message, and found it disturbing. 206.190.68.46 (talk) 19:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

If you know the block was not directed at you, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. While there are cases of worse abuse, it is not uncommon for shared IPs to be blocked because they are such easy targets of abuse. –MuZemike 19:53, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

It would be best to contact the admin who applied the block and ask him why, rather than bringing it to a forum such as this. Having said that, in the one edit that led to the block, the IP signed the comment using an administrator's username (User:Resolute, who was the blocking admin). Deceitfully trying to use the identity of an admin seems like a blockable offense to me. Peacock (talk)

It was hardly a "single edit" that led to the block. There was a pattern of persistent addition of the same text from multiple IPs; an immediate warning was appropriate for this edit to Craig MacTavish, because it indicated the same person was editing again, albeit from a different IP. When they made another malicious edit, the block was in order.

Policy does not require you to get an account. However, the blocking policy means that all users of an IP may have to suffer for the actions of one malicious user of the IP. (If malicious users keep getting the IP of your favorite coffee shop blocked, you may just have to pick a higher-brow coffee shop to edit from. :) ) We try to limit or mitigate collateral damage with those blocks, but it can't always be avoided. —C.Fred (talk) 20:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

How fortuitous that I just happened to see this thread. Based on the edit history of the Craig MacTavish article, the same unsourced, BLP violating content was being added repeatedly by a slew of IP addresses. I jumped directly to the L4 warning for this IP address on the belief that it was a single IP hopping vandal, then blocked when that person followed up with a spurious warning to another editor while spoofing my name. That was six months ago, and to the current editor on that IP, removing the old notices are certainly fair game. Regards, Resolute 20:08, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes. The person in question had been edit warring. The fact that they were using different IP addresses each time should not give them a protection from being blocked that would not have been afforded to someone using a single IP address or a registered account, and when they then started impersonating another user the block was fully justified. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

(resp to IP's opening statement) If you're too lazy to create an account? that's your problem, not ours. GoodDay (talk) 23:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

That wasn't called for. The IP is correct, they do not have to create an account. But if IP thinks we are obliged to permit IP to post as an IP, when that address is being used inappropriately, IP is mistaken.--SPhilbrickT 00:20, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Seconding Sphilbrick. That was neither polite nor required, nor supported by policy or practice. IPs are important members of the community, and many many named editors spend time editing as an IP first. Treating them like people is as required as it is for "real" editors, as opposed to driving away potential content-builders. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 00:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Veteran IPs know the risk of not creating an account, such as in this situation. They needn't complain about anybody recommending they create an account. GoodDay (talk) 20:11, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

If he didn't know the risk, he does now -- the risk is exactly the same kind of dismissive condescension to which you just subjected him. In other words, the risk you are describing is your own behavior. I think you ought to strike the comment. causa sui (talk) 20:49, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I'll take it as purely coincidence that the "MacTavish team bus vandal" (persistent vandal for 6-7 years) got blocked for vandalizing Ed Snider yesterday. TerminalPreppie (talk) 13:13, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Blocked while reporting a vandalism by User:Bokpasa.

Hello,

Since I asked the admin who blocked for some "clarifications" but that I got no answer, I'm reporting this issue on this board (note that this request isn't for contesting the blocking but to discuss an issue of vandalism) :

While reporting an ongoing vandalism on this board, another contributor, Jasper Deng, reported me (later) as being the vandal , after which I was blocked by Ioeth (I assume the good faith of both, but I think that Ioeth's action was a little bit precipitated and as a minimum of honesty Jasper Deng had to report both me and the involved IP, but he reported just me...).

Btw, if we take a look on the articles cited by Jasper Deng:

• Marinid dynasty, disruptive edits started on December 2010, the current version is the one edited by Bokpasa (no discussion, no justification, references deletion & OR). this edit's comment is particularly interesting.
• Almoravid dynasty: disruptive edits started on December 2010, same remark about the current version
• Same remarks about the articles Almohad caliphate and Saadi dynasty.

By the same way, it can easily be seen that I didn't add/remove information from these articles while reverting the IP's edits, I was just putting the article on its pre-vandalism version: .

But now since these pages are protected, Bokpasa has to be identified to edit them (as he's doing right now (can be seen on each article's history page), WP:DUCK!!). For information, this user is particularly known for his vandalism on Morocco related articles: (you can easily see that he was blocked for disruptive edits on the same articles than right now).

Note that he's also blocked on ES.Wiki and FR.Wiki for excessive vandalism... on that same articles than here...

Also for information, these are some previous issues involving Bokpasa: History of Morocco, sections 7 to 16 of the article's TP (Bokpasa is signing here his messages MOI instead of his own username), Incident noticeboard, User:Bokpasa tendious editing and personal attacks.

Btw, Jasper Deng also referred to some "EW with some IP's", but I suppose that nor him nor Ioeth toke a look on the concerned entries (a simple section search with my username can give that): .

As I wrote on my TP, I don't contest my blocking, I just need some "clarifications" ;

My questions are:

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Closing because marking it resolved clearly did not work. CycloneGU (talk) 21:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

---

Resolved – Blockhammer tossed by EyeSerene. One week block. CycloneGU (talk) 13:42, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Yogesh Khandke (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been involved in a variety of disputes related to Indian caste articles (see the section above, WP:ANI#Please look for some examples), and has repeatedly exercised fairly bad, incivil behavior. YK has repeatedly raised, in a variety of forums, a blog impugning the reputations of several longterm WP editors (claiming they are editing for money to deliberately slant the caste articles), made vague attacks, and cause other problems. I'm sure that other users could drag up more diffs than I, but I present just two, which I think, in and of themselves, are grounds for a block for personal attacks. In the middle of a discussion on User Talk:MatthewVanitas, MV mentions that he's been working on these articles for quite a long time. Yogesh reponds by saying "It has been reported that the fellow who bombed Oslo has been preparing hard since 2009." That is, YK is directly and unambiguously comparing MV and Anders Behring Breivik. To me, this is just a ridiculously obvious and wholly offensive personal attack. After being told that MV considered this a personal attack, Yogesh's response was only to state, "You are jumping the gun and putting words in my mouth, please keep the thread in one place. All I want to say is this (<embedded link cut>), which is also all that I have ever said.". So, no retraction, no acknowledgment of how offensive this claim is--in fact, an attempt to distract and go back to something else entirely. It appears to me that YK simply does not understand how to avoid being offensive, or knows and chooses not to, and thus fails to understand that this is intolerable. I'm involved on Indian caste articles and definitely with MV and associated editors, so I can't take action myself, but that looks to so obviously cross WP:NPA to me that I think it's block-worthy. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC) Off to notify now

To provide a little more context about this infamous blog: long/short someone who is very likely one of our banned dozen-puppet sockmasters from Talk:Nair's fight last month wrote a blog with a very detailed story about being aware of some plot by which several editors who were cleaning up Nair (including me) had been paid $400/hr to go disparage the Nair community on WP. Really silly stuff, and User:MangoWong was blocked temporarily for repeatedly linking to this attack page. Even after MW was blocked, Yogesh continued to post it, and when links were removed for it being an attack page, instead of going to ANI or DR went directly to User:Jimbo Wales and to Sue Gardner frantically warning them of dire consequences to WP's credibility (from a ludicrously untrue blog that had barely 100 views at the time). It's a free country so he can whine to Jimbo as the spirit moves him, but you can obviously see from his part in the discussion that he's pushing this anonymous blog to discredit other editors with absolutely zero evidence: User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_79#Why_Wikipedia_is_not_reliable.

Despite being told by various uninvolved folks on Jimbo's page that this was ridiculous, and Jimbo saying "In the meantime if anyone has actual evidence of wrongdoing, i.e. emails with headers intact offering cash for admin actions, I'm always keen to review such. But it sounds made up out of thin air at this point in time.", Yogesh has continued to drag up this blog. Most notably recently, apropos of nothing he brought it up at a WPINDIA discussion: Such an attitude was the reason for my bringing the blog to the notice of the founder. Every one should remember that he has promised to look at the issue, it is only a matter of months.. So among many other attacks, he continues to bring up a smear blog that everyone has told him to shut up about, and then lies about Jimbo being about to smack us over its claims. When I called him on that, he replied Does anyone think that people are retarded and think it is about money? (I said the same thing to Zeebedee, four days ago) Or is a lot of noise being made to divert attention, also check this. again trying to avoid being pinned down despite it being clear he's trying to use the attack blog to cast aspersions.

Long short, this guy is a prolific waste of everyone's time, does very little editing other than picking fights, and is indulging in increasingly blatant PAs that are far beyond civility. MatthewVanitas (talk) 03:59, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)

Maybe I'm just clueless, but the comment about how the attacker was preparing hard since 2009 seems innocent and pointless. I don't think the editor meant to try to connect MV with the attacks in any way. Thus, I think his comment that words are being put into his mouth is also justified. With that said, I get the connection; I just didn't read it that way. CycloneGU (talk) 04:00, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

My reading is that he was clearly making the comparison, that it was tantamount to a personal attack. Not to mention so wildly out of proportion that I'm at a loss for words. Also, would support a blanket ban on him linking (or even mentioning) the blog. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 05:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC) Yes, this is me at a loss. Have you seen how much I normally rabbit on?

It isnt not innocent; it is a deliberate comparison

MV says :. I'm putting in a ton of work to improve caste articles

YK responds: It has been reported that the fellow who bombed Oslo has been preparing hard since 2009.

This isnt innocent and YK isnt someone who is new or doesnt know English. It is clear he is comparing MV to Anders Behring. This isn't the first time YK has been insulting people who dont agree with him. His MO is to phrase his insults in such a way that he can claim his innocence later saying he didnt mean that. Here he is comparing disccusion with Fowler&Fowler to "wrestling with a pig" and here he is again referring to Fowler as a kupamandukas (means ignorant frog in the well). This is a pattern - he regularly rants when he doesnt get his way in discussions and manufactures conspiracy theories. A week ago he also claimed I have also read that certain admins slaughter hundreds of new Indian editors for nationatialist pov. What is this page going to do about this malise?. He was repeatedly told to bring the matter to ANI or create an RFC against the admins concerned. But after repeating the same accusation again and again, he finally refused to go to ANI saying Brother I will go for AN/I, I will jump into a well, since you were so free with kind advice to me, what about a little wisdom to the fellows? Of course it is your life. This is his pattern - when he doesnt get his way in discussions, he will bring up Indian vs non-Indian editors issue, muckrack in noticeboard and user talk pages and refuse when asked to take it take it to ANI or RFC. Claiming "Every one should remember that he has promised to look at the issue, it is only a matter of months" when jimbo has closed the discussion saying the accusation was manufactured "out of thin air" and bringing up the ridiculous attack blog again is disruptive to say the least. --Sodabottle (talk) 05:35, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

No one is perfect Sodabottle. While you mention Fawlerx2, why do you not as a neutral fellow also present wild accusations by Fawlerx2? About user:Fawlerx2, the esteemed editors have ignored blatant anti-Indian Government POV pushing here. This is just one example. You can not come here just to throw more muck in the name of other editors. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 09:09, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, so Yogesh is promoting a blog that accuses a number of us of bribery and corruption at every possible chance, and is comparing one of our editors to a mass-murdering maniac, but it's Sodabottle who's throwing the muck? That's an, erm, interesting way to look at things -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:00, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

What have neutral admins done about editors with such anti-India POV? If someone points that out, he does not become a POV pusher. I asked clearly why Sodabottle have not also mentioned allegations from Fawlerx2's side as well. I can ask you too, why have you not presented allegations thrown by Fawlerx2 before pointing out what Yogesh replied, for which there are no replies. As you are taking an active part in the discussion here, being active is something you are clearly fine with. So tell us what have you done about such allegations from editors such as Fawlerx2. If tomorrow Yogesh points out arguments that others have alleged randomly, a question will arise what you, as a neutral active admin, done about all that? It appears that you have already decided in your mind that "Yogesh is promoting a blog that accuses a number of us of bribery and corruption at every possible chance, and is comparing one of our editors to a mass-murdering maniac". If things have been already decided here, why do we need the pomp and show? What have you decided already about random allegations thrown about by others and what have you done about it? ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 10:21, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

thisthat2011, anti-India POV claims do not excuse personal attacks, intemperate language and convoluted logic. Please stop making insinuations against Sodabottle. If you feel so strongly about Fowler&fowler please set up an ANI or RFC against him and prove your point. And stop mis-spelling editors names. That is a personal attack on your part. How would you like it if we responded with a crude and lewd contraction of your name. And dont for a moment think that you have the "Theka" on defending the country on Misplaced Pages! AshLin (talk) 11:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I learn something more peculiar and novel every time I am part of discussions with smarter and higher-authority people. Not once anyone has bothered to know reliable source for such Anti-India nonsense, though it is common sense that everyone should be bothered about reliable sources. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 18:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I do understand and appreciate Qwyrxian's Misplaced Pages editing philosophy of solving disputes via amicable ways instead of "fighting" over them. In this case though, focusing only on behavioral issues, I do not see a problem with Yogesh Khandke. He is a patient, mature and balanced editor whose positions are well reasoned. I am saddened by the approach User:Sitush and his otherwise productive collaborators have taken - Sitush wishes to get rid of editors with whom he has had content disputes with. First a failed sockpuppetry case involving Yogesh, then on-going attacks and baiting to somehow drag him at ANI. Banning Yogesh would cause damage to Misplaced Pages by eliminating a viewpoint and making articles one-sided. Unless India related editors develop the ability to develop articles for the "other" side, editors like Yogehs are needed to keep a watch on articles. This thread should be closed ASAP and people should return to improving articles. Zuggernaut (talk) 05:49, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Zuggernaut, Yogesh by his own edits and actions has brought this against himself. Calling him a "patient, mature and balanced editor whose positions are well reasoned" indicates that your own judgement is highly questionable. If you wish your point of view to prevail, you have to abide by the principles of the 5 Pillars. This is absolutely the wrong way to further your country's POV, as opposed to those of Fowler&fowler and others, as you publicly claim that you would like to do. And stop mis-spelling Yogesh's name too! AshLin (talk) 11:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

• We should not reward an editor who may have found a way to be absurdly over-the-top offensive while not actually using words that a court of law could unambiguously interpret. There were two editors in dispute, and one of them makes a remark about a terrorist who has been preparing hard since 2009—that meets any common sense definition of an attack, given the background, and given the failure to retract. Repeatedly posting to an absurd and obviously incorrect trolling blog shows that Yogesh Khandke needs a substantial wikibreak. In addition, the persistent pushing in articles related to India needs to be brought under control. Johnuniq (talk) 05:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Presently, except for Sitush, MatthewVanitas and Qwirixian, nobody else seems to be able to get a dot in into the caste articles. And they are all like minded eds. Why should only these three get to dominate those articles? Are they omniscient? And what's wrong in discussing a blog which is already well known and is obviously saying baseless things. It was being discussed as an issue which could be an adverse reflection on WP, not anybody personally.-MangoWong (talk) 06:03, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

The caste articles, the POV, all of that is currently irrelevant; if anyone wants to look at my or Sitush's or MV's editing styles, our "bias" feel free--I believe the other section is still open at the top of this page...heck, talk about it here. I'm not afraid of a boomerang when I threw a perfectly straight javelin. But the current concern is a blatant personal attack. This thread should not be closed (IMLTHO) until we get clarification that this was or was not an over-the-top personal attack. Either I (me, not anyone else, me) have lost my ability to understand basic English, am completely insane, or this is a totally unacceptable personal attack that demands immediate blocking. It is impossible to, as Zuggernaut says, "return to improving articles" when one of the other editors has just compared you to a person who admitted to intentionally killing over 80 people because of their political viewpoints. That's the whole point behind having a policy forbidding personal attacks: once the occur, editing collaboratively is impossible. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:02, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Qwyrxian. If any of you object to Fowler&fowler, Qwyrxian or Johnuniq's edits or you dont like the POV they push on caste articles, oppose them tooth and nail with debate, discourse, ANI, what have you but all the time within boundaries of civilty and 5 Pillars. If you make sense and have meaningful refs, I will vote for your case, if I'm convinced as I have in the past against a few of Fowler&fowler's edits. AshLin (talk) 11:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

AshLin, I do not, for a moment, doubt your sincerity in what you say. However, trying to discuss anything or fingering the caste articles in the smallest of ways, seems to have become the surest way of getting oneself blackballed and blocked.-MangoWong (talk) 15:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for assuming good faith, MangoWong. If you intend to fight and win battles against seasoned editors on issues you feel are contentious - some advice. Firstly, do your research better than they do theirs. Beat them at their own game. Secondly, master and internalise the 5 Pillars and learn all the accepted norms of conflict resolution on Misplaced Pages - there are many things to learn, such as you cannot canvas support. Learn the numerous ways to tackle contentious issues. Thirdly, be absolutely sure that you are "correct" in this regard, rather than having a general feeling of being wronged. Be prepared to have an open mind while doing your research; if you find your argument is weak, avoid the conflict. Fourthly, persevere to get the change made. Be prepared for long discussions and debate, within 5 Principles, till you get your point across. Lastly, understand when it may be a lost cause and live to fight another day. At a level of 250+ edits, I would recommend staying off contentious articles till you learn the ropes. AshLin (talk) 17:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

The "blog" in question (the only post on a new Blogspot account, put up specifically for this one post) is incontrovertibly a work of the most distilled crackpot paranoia at best, and a flagrant personal attack of the worst sort at worst. No editor in good standing here should ever have linked it here except to highlight that an editor had stooped to such depths. That Yogesh continues to link it with "please don't sweep this under the carpet" rationales either suggests a level of such profound cluelessness that allowing him to continue to edit here would be dangerous, or a vested interest in baselessly attacking the characters of other editors acting in good faith (despite his repeated protests to the contrary). The next time anyone links to it they should be blocked, and if that doesn't resolve the problem it should be blacklisted. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 08:31, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Blacklist first would probably be better, as the consensus seems to say that it shouldn't be linked? - Penwhale | 10:32, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

The blacklist would help, though not entirely, because the last several times its been raised its just been described rather than linked (sometimes with enough info to make searching for it possible, sometimes not). The mentioning of the blog, especially the "Jimbo's looking into this" seems to be an attempt to intimidate. Also, note that while the blog mention is bad, I actually think that the original diffs I raised--comparing MV to the Oslo terrorist, are much worse and much more directly a violation of WP:NPA. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:43, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I've blocked Yogesh Khandke for one week, both for the utterly unacceptable comment he made regarding MatthewVanitas's edits and for the other evidence presented above of his ongoing WP:BATTLEGROUND approach to editing. I had considered an indefblock because I strongly believe that users who make the editing atmosphere unpleasant for others are a net negative, no matter what content edits they've made, and we're better off without them. Editor recruiting and retention is a growing issue and combative attitudes are actively destructive. However, I decided to to err on the side of caution... although I consider any return to editing after the week is up in the light of WP:ROPE. Review welcome as always, EyeSerene 11:37, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I was stopped from doing the same by your celerity. I further endorse every word of the above, including the timestamp. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 13:28, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

You were more lenient than myself. I was going to make it a month. Block endorsed, absolutely, though. Black Kite (t) (c) 15:00, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm cool with WP:ROPE, and appreciate the support. I/we probably let this go farther than it should before taking it here, and given how serious an impediment this has become I'm going to start being more deliberate about collecting diffs for the sort of behaviour that is massively slowing down caste article cleanups. On Talk:Nair the technique was more massive socking and blatant personal attacks (commenting on the morals and hygeine of other editors' mothers, etc) which was fixed via substantial blocks. On these Deccan caste articles there's been more subtlety, and wiki-lawyering, but equally nasty and chilling effects. Last week a couple of folks were on a kick of posting on multiple talk/user/project pages "the changes made at caste articles violate Indian hate speech laws", quickly followed by "oh, not a legal threat at all, I'm just saying..." Once that petered out, the focus has been pulling the emic/etic card (with a dose of Subaltern studies) to insist that self-identified Western editors "just don't understand India", despite the fact that we're backed by reputable Indian editors who somehow manage to edit without rallying to the flag at every turn. We have several relatively new Indian editors on caste articles who are doing great work, or are very new but willing to learn, so that's an even clearer mandate to stomp down on these discourse-lowering jabs on caste articles: endless accusations and sly attacks while refusing to file proper ANIs they know won't hold up. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:28, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

What is the use of filing any ANI if admins would jump in on one side and even go to the extent of misinterpreting policies, and simply ignore any complaints from the other side?-MangoWong (talk) 15:57, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

MangoWong, that you feel there are two "sides" here is disturbing. There is only one side on Misplaced Pages; those who want to write neutral, well presented and reliably referenced content. No other approach is valid. If you're seeing this in terms of a battle between ideologies you're on the wrong site.

Re the rest, I hope that Yogesh Khandke understands that the leniency shown this time will not be repeated, and that other editors of a similar mindset take careful note of the comments above. Re blacklisting the blog, my personal feeling is that it's probably not worth doing. All sorts of people set up grievance sites about Misplaced Pages when we don't let them peddle their POV on site; as yet the righteous hordes galvanised by their shocking revelations have signally failed to descend. If linking to it becomes a widespread and persistent problem my views would change, but for now I prefer simply blocking anyone (per the usual policies) who uses it on site as a vehicle for unsubstantiated allegations and personal attacks. EyeSerene 16:09, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi EyeSerene, as one of the targets of that blog, and of Yogesh Khandke and others who were pushing it, I thank you for your actions here - it's heartening that every time one of these tendentious editors comes to ANI, we get more uninvolved editors and admins becoming aware of what's happening and providing their assistance, and we always get support for the hardworking editors trying to create properly sourced articles. I think your coming down on the side of leniency was good judgment too - no unbiased observer could possibly accuse the outcome of being too harsh, which I think is an important line to follow. I also agree that we shouldn't blacklist the blog. For one thing, it's so laughably inept that no honest person could take it seriously - and leaving it there kinda makes it part of the rope. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi EyeSerene, thanks for mentioning that there is one side in Misplaced Pages -of "those who want to write neutral, well presented and reliably referenced content". In the same discussion above there are allegations against me as 'defending national POV' etc. when I pointed out that some user has made anti-Indian Govt. nonsense without any substance. Many editors & admins have not shown inclination to inquire source of such unsubstantiated allegation, instead went about pointing fingers at those who point it. Is it not in the interest of Misplaced Pages and members who adhere to neutral standards to avoid making it look like 'national POV defense' which is basically unsubstantiated nonsense, and also to avoid those who point out as 'national defense POV' people just so that admins/editors can avoid being neutral and inquire about reliable sources? Not once has these editors, who have replied to my messages above, inquired about secondary reliable sources, I don't know by what standards. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 18:21, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

And that ^ is another example of the tendentiousness that Thisthat2011 espouses. It is WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT on a huge, repetitive scale. - Sitush (talk) 19:14, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Resolved – Appears a user is blocked and referred otherwise to WP:RfPP for protection request. No further work to do here. CycloneGU (talk) 00:49, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Resolved

Resolved – This looked unresolved, restored here and removed from archive. Will be rearchived after another 24h lull. CycloneGU (talk) 00:36, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

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