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Soosim

Nishidani

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Nishidani

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Shrike (talk) 19:38, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Nishidani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#General_1RR_restriction

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 08:26, 2 May 2012 Removed "Militants were launching rockets into Israel from the area, and Hamas was known to conduct operations..." along with other sourced material
2. 11:11, 2 May 2012 Removed "Militants were launching rockets into Israel from the area, and Hamas was known to conduct operations..."

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

He was party in original case and he was banned as the result of it.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

In addition to violating 1rr, whether deliberate or unintentional, Nishidani was advised to revert his last edit by myself, ZScarpia, AnkhMorpork, and Ed Johnston who advised "unless you see a BLP violation against a named person or an obvious falsification of sources it seems like you should revert your own edit pending discussion." Nishidani has declined these requests, despite acknowledging his violation several times:12 He is an experienced editor that has previous blocks for edit-warring on I-P topics.His indefinite I-P ban was lifted by Arbitration committee in July 2011

@Tim : I don't understand what "ludicrous" about asking harsh sanctions for person that refused to self revert and have returned from indefinite ban.Its not like someone reverted him again he was given full possibility to fix his mistake but refused too.--Shrike (talk) 12:21, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

@Sean:I don't think his presence is a good to the area.Here is few one example of violation of WP:NPA:

• accuse other editors here of "hasbara", of "toeing" an "Israeli political line"
• Accusing other editors having "ethnic WP:COI"and "acking the serenity to look at the question encyclopedically,"

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Nishidani

Statement by Nishidani

Shrike is quite correct. It's no excuse that I didn't realize at the time that my two edits constituted an IR infraction. On a point of honour, I have refused the proferred option to revert the second edit because I don't want to spoil my record: I've never consciously introduced false or misleading material into wikipedia articles. No one who has discussed this on Ed Johnson or my page has challenged my view that the second edit removed a patent piece of fabricated material, but all suggest that I should restore it pro forma to show that I will abide by the rules. In the impasse between personal honour and obedience to a martinet reading of wikipedia culture, I prefer the first, and I respect the right of a plaintiff to get me suspended or banned. All you need determine is the severity of my violation, and the length of the sentence, then. I would ask that all editors, now that Shrike has had his day in court, leave it to the appropriate arbitrators to determine the sanction that is due, without wasting their time in a boring thread of defence or attack to mitigate or exaggerate the natural penalty. Nishidani (talk) 20:11, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Morpork. Really? (We shouldn't be arguing this here, btw. I've admitted the IR infraction. Your construal of Luke's edit, like my analysis, is available at the relevant pages.)

:"Samouni family members did not deny that Hamas militants operated in the area. A family member said there was no active Hamas resistance in the immediate vicinity, although militants were firing rockets at Israel a little more than a mile away." The New York Times source.

:"Militants were launching rockets into Israel from the area," and Hamas was known to conduct operations in the vicinity.Luke's reduction.

What the Samounis did not deny does not translate into 'they affirmed'. Tzipi Livni defined all members of Hamas, officials, pen-pushers, police, army, teachers as terrorists, and therefore the POV Hamas militants does not distinguish between combatants and nondescript members of the organization. Because of this source failure, you cannot use 'Hamas militants' to imply the reference is to active members of the Hamas militias. Esp. because the source says they were over a mile away from the Zeitoun residence. The Israeli government and one researcher have maintained at times that they were not shooting at Hamas members at Zeitoun, but members of Islamic Jihad, another organization.

What Luke did was collapse distinct elements of the NYTs, elide the geographical difference by collapsing a mile into the immediate vicinity of the Samouni houses, and push the innuendo that Hamas was firing from near the Samouni's compound. Really, this is elementary English construal. It's obvious.

The NYTs distinction between the Samouni testimony (backed by the Goldstone report) that Hamas was not active in their immediate vicinity and the apparent editorial clause, 'militants were firing rockets at Israel' over a mile away were conflated and muddled to make out that in the area where the Samouni were killed, Hamas were 'firing rockets' into Israel. It stands out like dogs' balls, probably those of Blind Freddy and his mutt. Both Shrike and yourself admit Luke's edit was poor. The gravamen of your charge is that this is irrelevant. Fine, but don't now try to justify the poor edit I fixed according to sources. It was a lead sentence, and couldn't conserve the source's complete remarks. I've argued this exhaustively twice. If you follow my remarks to Luke's edits as he stalked me, you will find many examples showing that he makes wildly skewed inferences from what I write and has a poor command of English. He's not on trial here, so defending his edit is not appropriate, esp. since his WP:SYNTH was and remains, construed against the source, indefensible. All that need be done here is pass sentence on my infraction of a rule, okay? The article would have been written by now were it not for this endless pettifogging by editors who don't trust one to do an honest job of thorough recension of all relevant sources. The game appears to be to turn up as soon as someone like myself touches these articles, and make life difficult with bad edits, poor sourcing or sheer blague.Nishidani (talk) 14:41, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Sean. For me to hope that I might wriggle out of the consequences of my error by expecting that admin close an eye to the mechanical application of a rule, would be to avail myself of what Giorgio Agamben has analysed as a "state of exception". Since all my work in the I/P area is premised on the contrary, that state actors must be judged by universal rules, (this corresponds to WP:NPOV by neither scape-goating, say Israel or the US, nor holding to the idea that whenever their actions are described we must always allow for their exceptional status, beyond customary or international law), it follows that, if I infringe what is a fundamental rule, I should pay the consequences and not expect some special consideration.

In lieu of a gentlemanly agreement to close an eye - one cannot hold others to a norm one otherwise subscribes to in their regard - a sanction is clearly due.

Shrike wants a permaban. Frankly that is silly. It is wildly incommensurate with the, in retrospect, innocuous slip (pas trop de zèle, Talleyrand's witty wisdom, is what I momentarily forgot) I made to correct a bad edit. My original permaban was for 8 reverts over 45 days, mainly against someone later identified as a sockpuppet operating contemporaneously 2 accounts in order to form a tagteam duo and push for a devastatingly innovative POV policy over Judea & Samaria. I was permabanned, but the point I and a few others, with a 100 academic sources against zilch to back our interpretation, had argued for became policy. So the permaban was, retrospectively, fine by me because it had achieved something to the good of the encyclopedia, a sacrifice worth the penalty. I didn't complain, sat out the ban, and admin, as I trusted they would, eventually reconsidered without my whingeing for a restoration of my editing rights. Shrike's solution is a tad 'ballistic' or 'viral', a bit like being consigned to the 9th cerchio of Dante's inferno because you'd dropped a whimpy puff (innocuous fart) at a papal audience.

I've slipped up, I think twice, on 1R, an excellent rule, because I'm pretty poor on the interpretation of policy: I freely admit I'm not a policy wonk, and have never read any one page of the guidelines. I rely on impressions of gossip, and commonsense. Before I suspended myself for a month. On my page I was about to do the same here, but Kafka got in the way.

Luke, who I have frequently remonstrated with for stalking me, and not familiarizing himself with the niceties of the English language nor all the relevant material bearing on articles, suggests 2 weeks. A decent compromise would be a month from all articles. This costs me, since I've promised Truthkeeper to fix the Charles Dickens article, and I'm enjoying that. I'll apply this provisory sanction myself.

If that's not sufficient, per consensus, then it can be automatically extended by an admin. Okay?Nishidani (talk) 08:34, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, No More Mr Nice Guy, but I can't resist the pun at your confusion of honour (τιμή) and ὕβρις, which no pagan like myself would conflate. The former was the basis for civilization, the latter a seed of its destruction. So, ἄτηboy!Nishidani (talk) 09:53, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

'looks like a sympathetic admin is going to delay your downfall.' Well, well. Proverbs, 16:18 לפני־שבר גאון ולפני כשלון גבה רוח׃ How enchanting an allusion! We were supposed to be thinking in Greek terms, hybris etc. but of course Daniel Boyarin does argue that 'Judaism is from the very beginning a Hellenistic form of culture' (Border lines: the partition of Judaeo-Christianity, University of Pennsylvania Press, 2004 p.82). Your remark suggests that my 'downfall' is inevitable, that it is "in the works". Well, after 6 years in the I/P area, I've had the odd inkling that getting me nableesied is a priority for some folks. You could be right. Luck (not Luke), what the Greeks calls Τύχη, is not on my side: as another proverb says: 'If it wuz rainen c**ts, I'd cop an arsehole.' I do think you chaps overdramatize a bit, and if it happens, I'll go off with an appropriate song, though no doubt "geschmückt wie ein Pfingstochse" (Walter Burkert, Homo Necans, p.8, from memory) But your Teiresian prognostication could be just wishful thinking. Good luck. A lot of effort has been put into this, most recently with the euphuistic good cop/illiterate bad cop gamesmanship playing at my heels as I'm sleuthed and sweetened up for the kill. Whatever, just as I won't on principle blame the admins if I'm cast into eternal silence, I don't think you guys should blame them if they happen, on this or any other occasion, to read things differently.Nishidani (talk) 21:05, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:TLDR wrap-up. So, please decide(and put an end to these pathetic agony columns. It is acutely embarrasing to have to always descend to defend one's behaviour here, like some dum con at the bar before his death sentence is pronounced. My behaviour on wikipedia is on the articles I have written, which in this area, (unlike all those who complain of my obnoxiousness and 'frightful' presence), have covered empathetically the cultures of both peoples in the I/P area, and not in this piddling bickering over commas).

The two self-bans of August 7 and December I registered in high visibility on my talk page are now added to the list, (I could have just notified my talk page quietly of my intention if I wished to be devious) so that an attempt to sanction or punish myself for unwitting errors no one fussed about become further damning evidence for some congenital behavioural problem that trumps the evidence of many articles actually completed to a close approximination to WP:NPOV. It's rather peculiar that an attempt to be fastidiously ethical at one's own expense is now cogent evidence for a lack of proper respect for wikipedia requiring severe administrative oversight.

I’ll deal only with one, the first, Ezra Nawi. This is how it looked. It stood at 6k, and intense talkpage discussionfocused on his conviction some decades ago for statutory rape. One editor there was even so prepossessed by the sexual issue he provided extensive ‘evidence’ in the Gaelic Misplaced Pages. It was shoddily written, mired in innuendo, and crudely conflicted, with a lot of negative IP vandalism and had stagnated for 2 years in that sorry state. Editors on both sides fought over whether this incident should be showcased (the ‘pro-Israeli editors tendency’), or hidden (‘the pro-Palestinian tendency’) as a WP:BLP violation. It was, worst of all, full of errors which even a rapid glance at readily available articles showed. People battling there seemed not to be reading for anything more than the sex angle. I disagreed with both. I thought the statutory rape issue needed to be addressed. I also thought that the failure to document the major part of his life, his activism, meant that editing in the former, while ignoring the latter, would violate WP:Undue. I built it to 52 k . It took 352 edits , most of them in just two short sessions, amounting to about a week’s work, interrupted by my ban, to do that.

When I stepped in I noticed and removed one of two CATs introduced by Off2riorob here and here, for the simple reason that the CAT (Category:Israeli sex offenders|Israeli sex offenders) seemed invented uniquely for Nawi, and only to exacerbate the problematic atmosphere on that page, since it has no one else in it (and still doesn’t), and there were many existing CATs for sex offenders where several Israelis were listed. The issue was resolved amicably. It was an IR revert. No trouble was raised over this, no threat given, as you can see here (where the 'offended' editor told me, after I decided to suspend myself, to 'stop beating (myself) up' (a nice double entendre!) and here (where User:Hertz1888, perhaps the most level-headed editor on 'the other side' even gently remonstrated with me over what he thought was an excessive, perhaps wholly unnecessary self-suspension).

It’s somewhat odd that an endeavour to set an example (for my 'side', btw) by punishing oneself for what were oversights in an intense period of editing, should be taken as proof that I am, to the contrary, someone who should be permabanned. Or that somehow I suffer from some moral flaw, called hybris, that will spell my doom as a contributor to Misplaced Pages.

I will never quite get a handle on the martinet tendency in Misplaced Pages’s I/P culture, and its Pecksniffishness at certain moments, its inability to determine whether the overriding criterion for judging the utility of editors should focus on their capacity for article creation and development, or their ability be ever present without doing anything of substance, while showing an impeccable knowledge of the laws, or engaging in a relentless war, full of tripwires, entrapments, and sleuthing, where most articles in the I/P area are kept in virtual stagnation because every edit there is obsessively watched, and any error lends itself to opportunistic attempts to eliminate an adversary (and this has not been restricted to one side)

Most who complain of other editors do not appear to think that the disgracefully undeveloped nature of most of these articles should require committed wikipedians to renounce the pleasure of just challenging every other edit by an adversary, and actually read comprehensively up on each article’s content, and move the article significantly ahead. It mostly cannot be done, because, as with Justin Martyr, or Pogrom, as soon as you touch the article, it is swarmed from the outset, and nothing, neither policy on RS or dozens of academic books, will change the intransigence that holds articles hostage to a skewed and POV-maimed minimalism. Like it or not, there are three POVs to be represented. The academic consensus of reliable sources, Israeli POV(s) and Palestinian POV(s). I prefer the first, though I have no trouble in admitting that I tend to see most contemporary events in terms of how an informed Palestinian would see them.

I said 'Nableezied' because the game here is to get that log record incrementally stacked with infractions, even if trivial, so that at a certain point, the impression for adminstrators’ eyes unfamiliar with how stacked, stalked and gamed this area tends to be, and the way it operates can't be judged from diffs, cannot but be that this or that person is damaging the place. The impression is gradually created by these endless appeals to A/E, that those targeted are making it hard for the decent, absolutely NPOV- committed majority to keep active here, and are obstructing people whose clean records as often as not testify to the fact that they don’t do much except control, monitor, revert or add a petty POV line to this or that article. 'There's no smoke without fire,' as the cadger said, after botting a half-pack and asking for a light.

This said, as I remarked at the outset, I made a IR error correcting a gravely distorted POV edit when I should have waited 24 hours, and since rules and rules, I deserve a sanction, perhaps one that will be long enough for the particular hounder of the piece to tire of his attempts to track me to every page and raise ridiculous inferences at every move I make, or of his endeavours for ‘conversation’ on my talk page. If he’s fallen for a schadenfreundlich love-hate relationship, and I'm the object of her orectic yearning, he should cathect that emotional afflatus elsewhere on the web. I’m quite ugly, and happily married, and am bored by his cheeky flirtations.

I can see that all this fuss and counter fuss embarrasses admins, who above all are obliged to make a call that stays above the fray, and reads as neither pending to one side or another. I have no problem with whatever sanction is deemed appropriate, and apologize for the inconvenience. But, this kind of situation is, in the real world, farcical, and only exists because wikipedia's I/P culture and its games are not, mostly, what they appear to be. Nishidani (talk) 06:20, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

A final word for Jiujitsuguy. You appeal for 'equality of treatment'. Of course. But. The ARBPIA 2009 decision took out 5 editors from one side, and 2 from the other, and immediately in the aftermath, the position adopted by the 5 was recognized to be the one consonant with one of the 5 pillars, WP:NPOV. It is now policy. Even if the administrators had no way of knowing what we peons on the ground knew (but informal knowledge cannot influence judgements at their level, quite correctly), that User:NoCal100 and User:Canadian Monkey were either a strategically coordinated tagteam or the same person, the formal 3 to 5 verdict, was not, in terms of the numerical imbalance in editors here, quite 'impartial' in a mathematical sense. A few others who actively intervened against us in that deliberation also turned out to be (well, a few of us were pretty sure before and during deliberations) chronic sockpuppets (User:Tundrabuggy). There were no sockpuppets on the side that had the highest casualties in that decision. The systemic bias here you allude to is what any statistical analysis of participation rates will show, and not otherwise. That's not your side's fault, nor the arbitrators fault. The blame lies with a people who allow themselves to be represented here either by people deeply attached to the state that occupies their country or by lunatics like myself, who allow their time to be tithed in what is otherwise an absolutely futile attempt to achieve some balance in the way their realities are depicted on a major encyclopedia, in a world where the major journalistic, as opposed to academic, sources are as Mearsheimer and Walt (2007:168-196) describe them. It's technically impossible to alter this bias (and people like myself accept it as just a fact of wikilife) which favours your side, but you really shouldn't pass your realities off as hard-done by.Nishidani (talk) 06:20, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Nishidani

As the editor who made the changes Nishidani reverted, I don't find his actions disruptive. I would say that AGF allows for the 1RR violation to slide. Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 21:35, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

• Comment by AnkhMorpork: The revert was not a simple removal of a "patent piece of fabricated material". The statement "Militants were launching rockets into Israel from the area, and Hamas was known to conduct operations in the vicinity" was sourced to this NYT article which states:

"Samouni family members did not deny that Hamas militants operated in the area. A family member said there was no active Hamas resistance in the immediate vicinity, although militants were firing rockets at Israel a little more than a mile away."

Your revert reduced the source to "A Samouni family member said there was no active Hamas resistance in the immediate vicinity." You selectively presented content and you removed the Samouni family's acknowledgment that, "Hamas militants operated in the area" and the reference to "militants were firing rockets at Israel a little more than a mile away".

The previous edit may have been lacking, but not with the flagrant conspicuity with which you have characterised it. I am not assesing the relative merits of the two edits; instead I am stating that your did not remove an "obvious falsification of sources" which Ed Johnston allowed for, nor what you state was a "patent piece of fabricated material". Additionally your edit did not simply remove the previous material; it asserted a distinct POV amidst a content dispute that you were requested to revert but chose not to.
Best Wishes Ankh.Morpork 22:22, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

If this AE request is closed with a sanction, can anyone suggest what it ought to be? EdJohnston (talk) 03:16, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I think because of the history this should indefinite ban.Also his refusal to revert is troublesome people were sanctioned even after they reverted--Shrike (talk) 04:16, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

An indefinite ban seems like a very odd thing to ask for. Nish hasn't done anything wrong apart from break a 1RR rule. That wouldn't have happened if Luke had stayed out of the topic area and you had opened a discussion instead of reverting. I struggle to see how Nish is the bad guy who needs to be removed from the topic area or how that would that benefit the topic area given his knowledge of the topic and policy. He is honest, he isn't a sockpuppet, he doesn't harass people, he is able to distinguish between right and wrong, he doesn't advocate on behalf of sockpuppets and do things like ask admins to reveal the confidential evidence used to identify them, he doesn't confuse the good guys, admins and editors doing their job to protect Misplaced Pages, with the bad guys, advocates, sockpuppets etc, he admitted the violation but wouldn't revert as a matter of principal. It's his choice to be constrained by principals and take the consequences but those consequences should at least be reasonable and designed to maximize the benefit to the project rather than harm the project. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:11, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Though I resent and deny the above suggestion of sockpuppetry (I've even been called a Jew, not that that's a bad thing), I agree that Nishidani's behavior isn't overly disruptive. Honestly, I love his sassy mouf. Two week I-P topic ban, not including talk pages. Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 05:18, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Noted, but from my perspective your actions caused this (although I'm sure triggering a 1RR violation was not your intent) and it would have been better if they hadn't. I think it would be wrong for an editor to be sanctioned because of a sequence of events triggered by, how shall I phrase this, the actions of another editor when there is a significant difference in the degree to which the presence of each editor in the topic area complies with policy, a difference that directly impacts on the validity of any edits they make, hypothetically speaking. It would be wrong. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:53, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Weren't you warned recently about instigating on AE boards that don't involve you? Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 07:12, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

No, but you may be thinking of this User_talk:Sean.hoyland/Archive_7#Discretionary_sanctions_notification where I volunteered "not comment at AE reports anymore unless I file them or they are filed against me", a self-imposed restriction I lift when certain specific criteria I use to decide whether to involve myself in an issue are met, and I think, or at least hope, that I might be able to add some signal rather than noise to the discussion. This is a little off topic though because this section should be for presenting information that will help admins decide on the appropriate sanction for Nish's 1RR violation. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:44, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

No, I was refering to when Admin HJ Mitchell said, It's equally concerning that a group of editors, and Sean.hoyland in particular, would see an AE request against a third party as an appropriate venue to thrash out their personal differences. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground, and AE certainly isn't ...I've given Sean.hoyland a formal notification of the discretionary sanctions. Other editors should be aware that hijacking AE threads (especially those on third parties) for interpersonal disputes will lead to sanctions should it recur... and here you are turning a conversation about Nishidani into a finger-pointing party. Don't suck me into your no-fun parties. Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 10:10, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Every 1RR violation is "caused" by someone making an edit the violator didn't like.

Also, a reasonable sanction for an editor with a long history of blocks who violates 1RR and refuses to undo his edit as a "point of honour" (read: hubris), would be what exactly in your book? Pretend we're not talking about one of your buddies. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:32, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what a reasonable sanction would be for this case. I have an opinion about what an unreasonable sanction would be and why. That is what I've tried to explain here. Reasonable and unreasonable things happen everyday though. Life goes on. The garden still grows. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:44, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

The garden still grows

The dough flows to Stanley Ho

Block for sas-mouf?, No!

Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 09:55, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

@Nish, I'm not confusing honor and hubris, you are. Luckily for you, it looks like a sympathetic admin is going to delay your downfall. Another day, another silly AE result. No wonder this place has the reputation it does. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:16, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

@Nish, your downfall is inevitable not because it's "in the works" but because of your behavior. I'm sure you consider editors making edits you don't like "entrapment" in the same way you think it's your job to pedantically correct the grammar mistakes of your interlocutors. Neither is true. The only thing "nableezied" here is an admin trying to let you off the hook for something other editors with your history would get a lengthy ban in a heartbeat. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:34, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Jiujitsuguy

I am requesting that another administrator review this AE and render an opinion independent from the one noted by T. Canes. I realize that T. Canes, as the first admin to comment wants to set the tenor and direction of this case. There was a brightline violation of 1R. The subject editor acknowledged the violation but still refused to revert, making the violation that much more egregious. Moreover, the subject editor had been previously indefinitely topic banned. One would assume that he would be more circumspect in his actions rather than showing blatant disregard for the rules. Do the rules only apply to one side?--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:36, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

For thy Gods of Administration are perfect beings, but wrathful, and will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger if thou continueth to doubt that perfection, JJG ;) AgadaUrbanit (talk) 20:25, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Editors associated with a particular POV have been indeff’d for a lot less. See this from T. Canes own mouth; I favor a WP:ARBRB-style indefinite topic ban myself, as I've explained above in another thread, and this seems to be particularly appropriate for editors who have been topic banned several times and still can't stay out of trouble. And then there is this from T. canes; Without looking at the edits, I'm not a big fan of two article bans. That someone needs to be banned from two distinct articles suggest that we would be better off simply banning them from the topic. If we are going to sanction editors, we should sanction them equally. The impression that I and many others are getting is that certain admins are not applying the rules in a consistent manner. That is to say that one side is being treated more harshly (a lot more harshly) than the other.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 20:38, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

@floquenbeam: I would have no problem with that sanction (one-month topic ban) but for the fact that as noted above, editors associated with a particular POV have been indef'd for a lot less. Moreover, does the fact that an editor stands on "principle" warrant leniency. All I want is for the rules to be applied consistently to both sides.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 21:18, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

• @floquenbeam: You are correct. Generally speaking, a one-month topic ban is not a lenient sanction. However, given the level of mischief and passion in the I-P topic area, admins who adjudicate these boards generally display intolerance for shenanigans and issue rather harsh sanctions for even minor infractions, ranging from a three-month topic ban at the low end, to an indef. This is especially true if the editor who is the subject of the AE has a recidivist history, which is the case here.

  I’d like to point out one more issue concerning a past AE involving Wikifan12345. In that AE Wikifan12345 was charged with violating 1R for removing a tag. Wikifan acknowledged wrong-doing and self-reverted about an hour after committing the offense. Not surprisingly, T. Canens who is drawn to I-P enforcement actions like moth to flame and almost always imposes or advocates the imposition of very harsh sanctions against those he identifies with the “Israel camp,” advocated an indefinite topic ban for Wikifan. Whether wikifan deserved to be topic banned for a 1R violation is a separate issue. I highlight the case due to its similarities and differences with the instant case. Both cases involve violations of 1R. There are two major differences however. Wikifan acknowledged wrong-doing and self-reverted. Nishidani refused to self-revert, even though he acknowledged the offense. Wikifan had NEVER been indefinitely topic banned, Nishidani has. Why then is Wikifan issued an indefinite topic ban while Nishidani is given a comparative slap on the wrist?--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 00:51, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Comment by ZScarpia

@Jiujitsuguy - Which cases are you referring to when you claim that "editors associated with a particular POV have been indef'd for a lot less?" If one of them was Shuki's, would you like me to list all the reasons why your claim is ridiculous in relation to it?     ←   ZScarpia   22:36, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Zero0000

It is so unpleasant to see N's editing opponents circling around throwing mud in the hope of being rid of someone who stands in the way of their POV-pushing. There are barely any of them whose editing behavior is not 10 times worse than N's, even if they are more adroit at staying technically within the rules like 1RR. The fact of this case is that N is a good editor who broke 1RR. He should get a short block like anyone should expect when they break 1RR. The rest is hot air. Zero 05:14, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Nishidani

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• If we are sanctioning this 1RR violation, then to me an 24 hour block is the only reasonable sanction. The suggestion of indefinite topic ban is beyond ludicrous. The last non-overturned block in the supposedly "long history of blocks" of Nishidani was a 24-hour block from four and a half years ago, and since the topic ban was lifted almost a year ago, Nishidani has not been sanctioned under ARBPIA as far as I can tell.

  Moreover, after looking at the edit and the cited NYT source, it is not clear to me that a sanction is appropriate at all. It's rather late here, though, so I'll leave that aspect of the matter for tomorrow. T. Canens (talk) 10:31, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

  • JJG, way to quote stuff out of context. Your first quote is from a September 2011 AE thread of someone who had been topic banned for eight months on 2 December 2010. That was, in other words, two months after the topic ban expired. Moreover there was an earlier AE thread on another 1RR violation after the topic ban, which was closed with only a warning. Nishidani was topic banned in 2009, and his topic ban was lifted in July 2011, ten months ago. The two situation are hardly similar.

    The second quote concerns someone who was already under an article ban; in response to an AE thread a ban from a different article is suggested. I wrote that if a second article ban is warranted then it's better to do a full topic ban instead, a view that I still hold today. How that is relevant to the case at hand is beyond me, since Nishidani is not article-banned at all, as far as I know.

    Bright-line rules are fine and all, but they need to be tempered by discretion or they are prone to gaming, and each incident needs to be evaluated on their own, taking into account the totality of circumstances. Unwarranted similarities are equally as bad as unwarranted disparities. T. Canens (talk) 21:45, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

• Mostly agree with T. Canens. This may be a minor infraction, but not a reason for a lot of drama or long-term sanctions. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:06, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

• I think most of this is either stipulated to by the parties or in my opinion really crystal clear:
  • Definitely a 1RR violation.
  • Being right is not a defense for 1RR (not saying he necessarily is, just that even if he thinks he is, it isn't a defense).
  • I can respect Nishidani's refusal to revert if he believes it would actively introduce a falsehood into the article; however, it means that someone else who disagrees about whether it's a falsehood and is following the rules is taken advantage of. Because of this, I don't think turning a blind eye is warranted.
  • An occasional misstep is not grounds for over-reaction.
  • It appears that he did something similar in August 2011 and December 2011, after the topic ban repeal, and self-imposed, respectively, a 1 month "block" and a 1 month article ban (which didn't actually seem to be followed completely). So, while he may not have been recently sanctioned under ARBPIA, this isn't the first time since the topic ban repeal that this has happened.
  • It would be a shame, for all of us, if Nishidani didn't help Truthkeeper with Charles Dickens, where there is no reason to believe any problems will occur.

Thus, I propose a one month I/P topic ban, including talk pages, instead of the self-imposed 1 month article ban. I was tempted to make it a one month IP article-only topic ban, allowing talk page participation, but at the risk of sounding like a self-important jerk, I think this ought to sting a little bit. As a reminder that this is a habit which he should make a serious effort not to return to. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:47, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Jujitsuguy: I don't consider a 1-month topic ban leniency; if you read what I wrote, I consider refusing to self-revert on principle a reason not to turn a blind eye to it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:37, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Looks like I missed the August and December episodes. Hmm...while being right is not a defense to xRR, it is something we can consider in mitigation. Looking at the edits and source again, I think N. has a fairly decent argument that L.'s edit did not accurately represent the source, but I think the whole thing is fuzzy enough that reasonable editors can disagree, and I'm not really sure that N.'s version is an appropriate summary either. Taking into account the history of 1RR violations since the topic ban was lifted, I agree that some sort of sanction is in order. Since this would be the third 1RR violation, if we are blocking then a week is probably appropriate, considering the usual escalating blocks sequence. Alternatively, I can also go with your one-month topic ban. T. Canens (talk) 22:15, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm happy to give your suggestion a try here; let's see if that doesn't work. If not, then a week-long block would be the next step. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:29, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Caucasian Albania article

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Caucasian Albania article

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Grandmaster 09:13, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Relevant article

Caucasian Albania (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:ARBAA2#Standard discretionary sanctions

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I would like to request an amendment to the remedy that was imposed on this article more than a year ago: . I don't mind the first part of the remedy, which places the article on 1RR, but the second part I believe should be canceled. In my opinion, the sanctions imposed on Caucasian Albania clearly did not work. The situation in Caucasian Albania was in general similar to what was going on in Nagorno-Karabakh, where the new accounts waged an edit war, and which was placed on a different article level sanction: The edit warring on both articles was started by User:Xebulon and his socks User:Vandorenfm and User:Gorzaim, as well as some other sock accounts. At that time Sandstein imposed a sanction that read: All editors with Armenia/Azerbaijan-related sanctions are banned from editing this article and its talk page. For the purposes of this ban, these editors are all who have at any time been the subject of remedies, blocks or other sanctions logged on the case pages WP:ARBAA or WP:ARBAA2, irrespective of whether or not these sanctions are still in force or whether they were imposed by the Arbitration Committee or by administrators. But since all long time editors in AA area were at some point under some sort of sanctions, this pretty much opened the doors for sock and meatpuppetry, since new accounts were not under any prior sanctions. The result is that the article reflects the views of the sockmaster, who was free to make any edits he wished, and established editors could not remove even unreferenced WP:OR claims. At the moment I cannot remove even obvious WP:OR statements introduced by the banned user: Note that the line "Whether Arranian is related to Caucasian Albanian languages cannot be determined" is not supported by any source and contradicts the sources quoted in the article, but I had to roll myself back due to sanctions: This is why the article about Caucasian Albania is in such a poor condition now. I believe what triggered the remedy in question were WP:AE requests by the sock account, who even managed to place an established user on a 1 year topic ban: Note the complaint of the sock: The immediate concern is his editing of the article on Caucasian Albania, where User:Twilight Chill continues waging an edit war against 5 (five) other unrelated editors (Aram-van, Gorzaim, Vandorenfm, MarshallBagramyan, Xebulon). 4 of 5 accounts that he mentioned turned out later to be socks (User:Aram-van, User:Gorzaim, User:Vandorenfm, and User:Xebulon). Another request was filed on me: , and also on the sock itself: I understand that admins at the time had no proof of sockpuppetry and assuming good faith believed that the editors filing complaints were genuine newcomers (even though some admnins noted that the account filing complaint was suspicious), but considering that those accounts turned out later to be socks, I think the remedy needs to be reviewed. Therefore I think rather than banning everyone who has been under sanctions at some point in time (I myself was last sanctioned 5 years ago, and since then have no history of blocks, bans or any other sanctions), it would be better if established editors were treated on an individual basis. Many of the established editors have plenty of useful contributions in various areas, and excluding them from editing this article because of the old mistakes in my opinion is not fair. The immediate result of this remedy is that while most of the established users are excluded from editing, the sock accounts get unfair advantage and can freely make any controversial edits to this quite a contentious article in AA area. I believe at the moment it is enough to keep Caucasian Albania on 1RR per day for everyone who wishes to edit it. Grandmaster 09:13, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Not required, because the request is about amendment of the article level sanctions. Grandmaster 09:13, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Discussion concerning USERNAME

Statement by USERNAME

Comments by others about the request concerning USERNAME

Result concerning USERNAME

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

PANONIAN

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning PANONIAN

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 09:16, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

PANONIAN (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBMAC

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 25 March 2012 Prior to a single discussion formerly taking place on the talkpage of the article, PANONIAN, notices an exchange between Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs) and DIREKTOR (talk · contribs) talking about the poor state of "his" article and immediately attempts to have Peacemaker67 blocked as a sockpuppet of DIREKTOR. There he posts many wild accusations including one claiming that DIREKTOR made a "arranged discussion" between him and Peacemaker67. I also note that he had previously also attempted to block an IP user as a sockpuppet of DIREKTOR . It is clear that he views anyone who opposes him or "his" article as a sockpuppet.
2. 25 March 2012 After it was evident the SPI was going nowhere he tried to circumvent it and convince an admin directly to block Peacemaker67.
3. 26 March 2012 When that fails he's contacts another admin.
4. 29 March 2012 Having had his SPI and attempts to convince admins fail, he posts a thread on WP:ANI, again throwing around accusations of sockpuppeteering ("I know DIREKTOR, and due to that, I can be 100% sure that User:Peacemaker67 is his sockpuppet (it would be impossible that he is not)"). Subsequently, for about two weeks, he repeatedly treats Peacemaker67 as a sockpuppet of DIREKTOR despite requests to stop.
5. 2 April 2012 Peacemaker grows tired of these unfounded accusations and reports PANONIAN on ANI. An admin recommends that the matter be taken to AE, but Peacemaker67, apparently, does not do so either because he is lenient, unaware how to, or simply unwilling to put in the time. I give my opinion on the matter and PANONIAN continues this behavior and refers to me as a "Croatian account".
6. 2 April 2012 PANONIAN attempts to get another admin involved in the matter.
7. 26 April 2012 PANONIAN accuses Peacemaker67 of posting this edit with his "IP sockpuppet" on the Reichskommissariat Ostland article in 2008. Just to be clear. Here PANONIAN is insinuating that Peacemaker67, who joined in November 2011 from Australia, made a contribution in June 2008 with this Australian IP (his "sockpuppet") so that he can win an argument against PANONIAN in the future four years later.
8. 28 April 2012 A more recent attempt to block a discussion participant on WP:ANI by PANONIAN

1. 29 March 2012 A series of month-long, circular, repetitive debates begin and are repeated ad nauseam. Having gone over all of them, it's evident Peacemaker64 (and to a lesser extent DIREKTOR) repeatedly present their sources and research over and over again, only to have PANONIAN reject them. Then a lengthy discussion follows where PANONIAN tries justify his rejection through WP:OR (which he insists on simply repeating over and over again), through Googled out-of-context one-liners, or through various methods of that sort. He might post statements from sources that he's completely misunderstood, and then refuse to concede that he got it wrong (I agree with Peacemaker64's and DIREKTOR's statements about his poor grasp of the English language when it comes to interpreting sources and Misplaced Pages's policies), or he might simply reject the sources without a proper reply and create another section on the same matter.
2. 9 April 2012 Increasingly out of options, PANONIAN creates a new thread for a WP:VOTE
3. 10 April 2012 Peacemaker67 posts numerous sources, complete with quotes, at PANONIAN's request.
4. 10 April 2012 PANONIAN simply dismisses them all in brief and moves on to another thread.
5. 26 April 2012 DIREKTOR takes the time to quote each relevant statement from every source on PANONIAN's request
6. 27 April 2012 PANONIAN briefly decides the sources don't say anything, and starts a new thread for a WP:VOTE.
7. 2 May 2012 Peacemaker addresses PANONIAN's collection of maps one by one
8. 2 May 2012 PANONIAN briefly dismisses the analysis and moves on to another thread, etc. I could go on and on like this, but I recommend seeing talkpage for yourselves. I was astounded to see the numerous number of times that PANONIAN repeatedly and blatantly engaged in WP:OR (with coins and stamps he found). April 5 2012
9. 3 May 2012 The disruption continues and PANONIAN is either unable or unwilling to abide by Misplaced Pages's policies.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warned on 27 April 2012 by Tiptoety (talk · contribs), concerning edit-warring on the article
2. Warned on 2 May 2012 by DIREKTOR (talk · contribs). After the warning was deleted he replied to the posting user to "cut the crap".

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Aside from WP:FORUMSHOPPING, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, and failure of WP:AGF being blatantly evident, it is clear from these diffs that this is a general behavioral pattern and not an isolated incident. Users to him are not individuals to be persuaded rather obstacles that must be coerced or intimidated to reach his end, likewise he views admins as simply tools or pawns to be used to facilitate his process. It would be an immense effort to try and relay the discussion in full, but the whole matter is available for those who have the time and effort. The user simply rejects presented sources and relentlessly promotes his own ideas and his own version of history that he has conjured up and that no sources back up. It is not only Misplaced Pages's users who have suffered at the hands of PANONIAN's behavior and actions, but also this article which continues to incorporate biased information and historically inaccurate nonsense.

PANONIAN, in his own words, is a self-proclaimed "patriot" , with apparent WP:OWN issues and a clear WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality ("I am not Croat who desperately trying to implement POV-ization of article about Serbia" ). It's clear that he views himself as a guardian of sorts that stops non-Serbs from sullying Serbia-related articles. He has caused immense WP:DISRUPTION and has rendered any discussion entirely pointless. The article is in quite a sorry state as a result and at this point, all edits must be "approved" by PANONIAN, who doesn't mind a few contributions here and there as long as they do not interfere with his POV.

Again, this all appears to be part of a more general "strategy" employed by PANONIAN, who, after exhausting his opposition, requests that a "compromise" between the quoted reliable sources and his own personal views be reached - which has rendered the article a self-contradicting mess. The user take advantage of the complexity and obscurity of the subject matter to continue to avoid sources, create new sections and circular "discussions" on the same matter, pressure other users into a "mediation" carried out by himself, intimidate and coerce them through SPI and ANI reports, and avoid Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. This is all done with the intent of promoting his own personal version of history, one which is marred by nationalism and one which no other user or source subscribes to. Users who have taken the time and effort to do some research on the subject matter are effectively blockaded and unable to get to the article.

I initially wanted to keep myself distanced from the matter since I know that the more editors get involved the more things can get dragged out and complicated; however, I feel that it is important and necessary to bring this to the attention of admins.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning PANONIAN

Statement by PANONIAN

Comments by others about the request concerning PANONIAN

Result concerning PANONIAN

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.