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Repeated editing of articles against WikiProject consensus

WP:TL;DR version: Willdawg111 (talk · contribs) has returned to editing MMA results tables in a manner that goes against consensus. This is behavior they have done before, has been asked to stop doing, and has been warned that continuing to make these edits could result in a block of their editing privledges. There are general sanctions in effect for the MMA article space and this situation may fall into it.

Longer Version: Last month Willdawg111 (talk · contribs) started a discussion in regards to the format and contents of MMA result tables. There was not a lot discussion about Willdawg's suggested changes. After a few weeks, Willdawg !voted in favor of his changes and in the same edit declared discussion was closed with his single vote creating a new consensus over the formats. Willdawg proceeded to change the WP:MMA page to his suggested changes as well as editing multiple articles with the changes. Their edits were reverted by multiple users who included edit summaries stating there was no consensus for the changes. Willdawg then reverted many of those reverts, including multiple times on WP:MMA. Willdawg has been informed that there is no consensus to make these changes at WT:MMA and about edit warring on their talk page. The resulting discussion and closure by an admin shows Willdawg's perferred format to not have consensus. However, even with the previous warnings, Willdawg has returned to making these same kinds of edits against consensus. As mentioned above there are general sanctions over the MMA article space which may require an admin to step in and determine what actions, if any, needs to be done. --TreyGeek (talk) 18:13, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Willdawg111 deletes all warnings posted in his talk page by fellow editors, ignoring and disregarding them. Here some diffs: , , , , , , , . --LlamaAl (talk) 19:11, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I can empathize. It is really annoying, after all, to have a small group of people hounding you because your new views conflict with their "consensus". PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 23:34, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• I try to keep my talk page cleaned up. I keep only what I need, such as links to guidelines and pages that are pointed out. It doesn't matter if its somebody falsely accusing me of violating a policy or pointing out something positive. Check my talk page history, I clean up the old information that I don't need anymore. Willdawg111 (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
  • In those cases is better to archive your talk page. --LlamaAl (talk) 00:24, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

And I have no idea how to do that. Willdawg111 (talk) 02:22, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Not violating Consensus There was a consensus to go to this new design. If you read what was closed out, the admin specifically allowed for minor changes to the format, which is all that I'm doing. All I'm doing is a minor cleaning up which is NOT in violation of what was decided. The consensus guidelines speicifically allow editors to voice their opinion as to the current consensus via their editing. I have been very careful to read the guidelines and follow them. Please close this out A.S.A.P. Willdawg111 (talk) 19:50, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Canvassing This came off of the accusers talk page:
Report of Willdawg editing articles against consensus again

TreyGeek, Willdawg111 (talk · contribs · count) is changing result tables against consensus again. Could you report him at ANI? Here are some diffs: Thanks in advance. --LlamaAl (talk) 17:29, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• ANI notice has been started. --TreyGeek (talk) 18:15, 13 January 2013 (UTC) Good. --LlamaAl (talk) 19:12, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
  

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:TreyGeek
This is clearly the work of somebody violating canvasing policies to get somebody who has a similar viewpoint as to the direction of the MMA project to come after me. There is a big split in the opinion of the project going on on several key issues. I am one of one of the vocal editors on one side, and these two are vocal editors on the other side.
This is the reason that I have been careful to follow the guidelines and do everthing by the book.Willdawg111 (talk) 20:13, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

That's not canvassing. Read WP:CANVASS. --LlamaAl (talk) 23:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• Indeed, it's not canvassing. Moving right along. Drmies (talk) 23:22, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
• Why was Wilddawg not blocked for the recent edit war here? I've been involved in a couple of the MMA discussions, where Wilddawg basically proposes some major format change, calls for a timeline, hopes no one responds, and then "closes" the proposal saying it passed. They don't appreciate how Misplaced Pages works and are (as is pretty plain to me) not furthering our project. Drmies (talk) 23:45, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
• First of all, in order to have an editing war, there has to be 2 sides. Second of all, I did everything by the book, including making sure not to violate the editing rules. Willdawg111 (talk) 23:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
  • There were two sides: you and the other editors. You have been blocked for edit warring in the past. --LlamaAl (talk) 00:07, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
• Editing wars: If they were editing wars, you would be guilty also LlamaAl because you were reverting my edits.
• WP:CONSJust want to point out that the small changes I've made all fall under Conensus by editing. There is a split in the group and I am voicing my opinion in the split by voting by editing, which is clearly allowed and encouraged under the guidelines of Misplaced Pages. May I suggest the couple people who came here making accusations, to please read consensus page because there are 2 major issues they aren't understanding. The first is the consesnsus by editing which is just pointed out. The second part is that consensus is supposed to be reached by compromise and working together, where every give a little bit to come to an agreement on guidelines everybody can live with. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mixed_martial_arts. If you look at the project talk page, you will see its me and 1 other person who have been pushing for compromise and working together. I opened a dialog on another admin page over a week ago because these 2 same editors have refused to work together and compromise with the rest of the group. I really hope you can see through their smoke screen and see that it isn't me thats the issue, I'm the one trying to push for compromise, it's these couple editors that inisist everything is done their way, no compromise, and they will do whatever they have to in order to get their way. What they are doing, isn't what Misplaced Pages is supposed to be about. Willdawg111 (talk) 00:27, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why I would be guilty. I just reverted your edits in a WikiProject guideline because there were against consensus. --LlamaAl (talk) 00:33, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• What LlamaAl says. How can I say this? You were obviously edit-warring and should have been blocked on 4 January. You got reverted by three different editors. So no, you did not do everything by the book. I'm not going to block you in hindsight, but if you don't see that you were edit-warring here then you don't know what edit-warring is--and for someone who's been blocked for 3R before, that's kind of not smart. You could, of course, apologize for those past actions, say that you now understand where you went wrong and were reverted by three different editors, etc. Or you could hold on to the erroneous statement that you were right and the even more erroneous statement that your "vote was closed" meant anything at all. For the bystanders: I think Willdawg is referring to the "vote" in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mixed_martial_arts#Cleaning_up_the_format; see their comment on 2 January. Drmies (talk) 00:36, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Him needing to be blocked on the 4th is just furthering a smear campaign. You all like to bring things up saying "well X happened weeks ago!". Grow up, and move on with life. If the block were warranted then it would have happened then. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 08:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Bollocks. There is no smear campaign, and telling me to grow up is something that only Mrs. Drmies is allowed to do. The block was warranted then; that you disagree simply means you don't know the rules of the Misplaced Pages game. He wasn't blocked because no one reported him, as far as I can tell. Also, these little sneers of yours only serve to antagonize editors and administrators against you and therefore against Willdawg. If you had some sense and if you wished to help him, you'd stay out of this. Drmies (talk) 16:09, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Sockpuppet investigation I would like to point out that the editor who instigated this is currently under investigation as being a sockpuppet of a repeat offender of a permanently blocked user. Can I suggest this be close out until the sockpuppet clerks can confirm the status of this editor? Willdawg111 (talk) 02:07, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• Extraordinary claims require extraordinary documentation Willdawg, I say this with the most thinly veiled contempt, throwing every elbow and trick in the book to distract from the matter at hand only proves that your editing and participation in the community is disruptive. Hasteur (talk) 02:44, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

There's nothing disruptive about my editing. If you are referring to the sockpuppet investigation, this was originally started a couple weeks ago, and I'm batting 100% for recognizing sockpuppets. Willdawg111 (talk) 02:51, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

@Willdawg111 the editor who instigated this was in fact TreyGeek and there is no SPI on him that I can see, if you are referring to LlamaAl, a CU has confirmed last week there is no link between those accounts. I sympathise with your frustration with socks, WP:MMA has a whole draw of them, and sometimes it may appear that accounts are linked when they are not. For the recorded I would support routine CU checks being run on all participants of MMA related AfD's and WT:MMA discussions. ✍ Mtking ✉ 03:30, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I would second that. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 05:48, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• Seeing that this particular ANI is about Willdawg111's editing practices and behavior, I fail to see how an SPI on another user should close out this issue. In response to what Drimes mentioned above as to why Willdawg wasn't blocked during the initial edit war... by the time I got home it appeared that Willdawg was following the correct procedure in discussing the changes on talk pages. I went ahead and wrote up an ANI request for future use. When I found out they returned to the disruptive editing practices I updated it and posted it above.

I attempt to WP:AGF, perhaps too much sometimes. I had hoped that the last ANI/MMA discussion that was focused on Willdawg would have resulted in some kind of action, even if it was mentorship. I've long since come to think that whenever the three letter words "MMA" appears here, admins scatter and avoid it at all costs. That's why I avoided the use of MMA in this section's title. What good are general sanctions if they are never used? Why is condescension and disruption so quickly over looked? Someone is going to need to step in (even if it's to me because I'm too blinded to see my own improper actions, if there are any), or this will never stop, IMO. --TreyGeek (talk) 03:49, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I had a couple incidents on not following the rules and guidelines when I first started and didn't know what I was doing, but I have been very careful to follow them. Just because I have a difference in opinion doesn't mean there is anything disruptive or anything wrong with my editing. Willdawg111 (talk) 04:19, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Willdawg is referring to Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/JonnyBonesJones, which is going nowhere--that is, nowhere good for Willdawg. Drmies (talk) 05:43, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• OK, I don't like this report (warning: this itself is pretty long). There is a ton of text and a ton of diffs, but I don't see enough explanation or context to judge whether Willdawg is editing (in edits such as this) against the consensus pointed at by TreyGeek, an RfC I closed myself. Maybe I don't understand the nature of the complaint, but first of all I don't see the difference between what is listed as "Current format" and "Suggested Improvements" in the discussion. In other words, as far as I can tell, this edit continues the old format, which was agreed should be changed--but it's not (again, correct me if I'm wrong) is not a revert from "Suggested Improvement 2" in that RfC to the old format ("Current Format"). If that were the case, Willdawg would clearly be editing against the (new) consensus. Nor do I understand (aside from the edit-warring, of course) what is so disruptive about this edit, or what it violates.

  Now, since I closed that RfC and have made a few minor edits to MMA articles (basically removing flags), any action of mine against Willdawg will be perceived as involved and wikilawyered all the livelong day. But this discussion (leading to Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Mixed martial arts) gives uninvolved admins plenty of discretion to apply sanctions to disruptive editors. In their close of the AN discussion, Salvio said, "any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working on a page within the the topic of mixed martial arts, if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process". That may well, in my opinion, apply to Willdawg: their behavior does not promote collegiality within the MMA set, and they show a rather shocking lack of knowledge of guidelines governing consensus, edit-warring, and collegiality. But their behavior does not yet, I believe, rise to a level of disruption that would be perceived as blockable outside the MMA area--unless a better case is made. TreyGeek, if you had made a case fully explaining a limited number of problematic edits, I might have seen it. But your report is bloated with unexplained diffs and edits that are simply not to the point (it is perfectly alright for an editor to remove warnings etc.), and so I can't say that a block is automatic here. Drmies (talk) 06:07, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

  • More specificity? I can do that:
    • Willdawg changes Wikiproject guidelines without consensus.
    • Willdawg removes information from next to KO/TKO results and moves judges scores to notes column against consensus.
    • Willdawg removes information from next to KO/TKO results and moves judges scores to notes column against consensus.
    • Willdawg removes information from next to KO/TKO results and moves judges scores to notes column against consensus.
    • Willdawg removes information from next to KO/TKO results against consensus.
    • Willdawg removes information from next to KO/TKO results against consensus.

In each of these recent cases, Willdawg is attempting to change articles and remove information following the guidelines of their failed proposal for changing result formats. They have been repeatedly told there is no consensus to make these changes and that there are a number of WikiProject members who don't want this information removed. They continue to do so, requiring editors to have to monitor their activity to see if they continue to make these kinds of changes that must be reverted. The time spent monitoring their activity could be better spent doing other things (like improving the two sentence MMA fighter articles that have cropped up by the dozen this weekend). In response to comments and warnings about their activity Willdawg wikilawyers with policies and guidelines such as claims of "Conensus by editing". Willdawg has a bad case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT that doesn't seem will be easily cured. --TreyGeek (talk) 13:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Tell me: where between 4 January (the MMA talk page edit war) and 13 January (the contested edits) were they told in no uncertain terms that what they were doing violated consensus? Because so far, it seems to me that those 13 Jan edits are almost trivial--whether someone adds or removed "punches" or whatever from some column appears fairly trivial. Drmies (talk) 16:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Drmies, there was some heated discussion on the 4th on the MMA talk page at the bottom of this section that I think was pretty clear but rejected by Willdawg. I don't think anyone bluntly said to Willdawg "This is now the format, you must follow it!". In part I think it could have been viewed as grave-dancing since his preferred format was not supported but also in part since he was insisted that his format had consensus and thus must be followed that he knew what consensus meant and knew it was changed since he was actively involved in the debate. The discussion you closed on the 4th had two proposals. Proposal 1 was Willdawg's preference, Proposal 2 was preferred by most others and when closed was selected as the consensus version. The change to UFC 153 that Willdawg made on the 12th was away from the proposal 2 format to proposal 1. It's trivial but it would be disingenous to suggest that Willdawg didn't know how the result section should be formatted. Rather, I think he simply didn't care and changed the article to his preferred version. Had he not been reverted, I think we'd see more of those changes. The project talk page also has a section started on the 8th talking about the new results format. Willdawg has not participated in that discussion but I'd find it hard to believe he was not aware of it. A strong reminder that he needs to follow the format chosen by consensus should help and may be all that's needed. (Yeah, I'm an optimist). Ravensfire (talk) 17:17, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I saw that, then and now, but again, I don't see how that discussion specifically forbids those (in my view) minor changes they were making on 13 Jan, but the point about your reminder is well-taken, and maybe that will be all that's needed. Ravensfire, I'm glad you popped by--I have the feeling that I'm the only respondent here that's not involved in the complaint and I don't like that position, but I think other admins feel little inclination to delve into this mess. Thus far, then, I get the feeling that no block or sanction is going to be forthcoming, and that a strong reminder will be the upshot of this. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 17:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm honestly getting really annoyed by all the MMA stuff that shows up here, and Willdawg is certainly at the forefront of a lot of that. That said, I clicked through most of those diffs provided in the OP, and most of them appear to be moving scores around in the infobox... why can't the MMA talk page handle such a simple issue? This isn't a question of MMA notability (as some people below try to make it), but apparently some internal strife about... I don't even know what.

Seriously, this whole issue's absurd. This, as far as I can tell, isn't even a notability issue (although I'm not at all surprised half the people commenting here assume it is and jump in with their comments on that point). It seems to be some esoteric innerstrife that remains not well explained.

How about a topic ban for MMA regular contributors from using the AN boards.... I'm kidding... mostly. Shadowjams (talk) 10:44, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Let me ask this question for future advice. If/When Willdawg makes these same kinds of edits in attempt to establish their own "consensus by editing", what should happen?

1. Their edits are reverted and nothing more happens?
2. Their edits are reverted and they ask politely asked, again, to discuss changing the format of results on the MMA WikiProject talk page?
3. Their edits are reverted and they get escalating vandalism warnings until they can be taken to AIV?
4. Their edits are reverted and we all come back here to ANI? (I really doubt anyone is going to suggest this one.)
5. Their edits are ignored and Willdawg gets to establish their own consensus against the desires and opinions of the rest of the MMA WikiProject?

I sincerely would like to know what we are supposed to do in this situation. --TreyGeek (talk) 13:59, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

You know all they have to do is look at the talk pages and they will see that I am the one trying to discuss things on the talk pages don't you? Also, if you read consensus, you would know exactly what you are supposed to do, compromise and work together as a team.

Don't you get it. This isn't a place to try to bully somebody into doing everything your way. This is a group project, meaning you have to take the opinions of every active editor into play. This page isn't here for you to try to force people into complying with your opinions. Everything I have done lately has been by the book. I have followed the guidelines. I haven't violated 3 revert rule, I didn't violate what the closing of consensus. If you read it, the admin specifically opened it up for minor changes, which is all I did. How about trying to compromise and work together with everybody instead of trying to use an admin to do your dirty work and force compliance with your opinion. All they have to do is look at the talk page lately and they will clearly see that I am the one being diplomatic and trying to compromise and work with everybody. Willdawg111 (talk) 15:10, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

What about this change? it's extremely similar to your preferred format. I thought this was over with the first discussion, but it seems that we should discuss it again on WT:MMA. Although this issue seems to be trivial, it has already generated several edit wars, as this latest on Strikeforce: Marquardt vs. Saffiedine: , , , , , , . Poison Whiskey 16:03, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

If you look at the talk page where the discussion was closed out. The admin declared the new, blue colored table the new table. If you look at his comments, he left it open for minor changes. What would you call putting the scored into the comment section. I'm assuming most people would count that as a minor change. Concensus says that a new consensus is reached by the way editors are editing, and I was using my editing of minor details as my vote for the way the details are worked out.

Looking at the section below this, you guys are astonished and upset at the negative view that this project has. Have you ever thought that it gets a bad reputation by the way you are acting. I have been trying to discuss issues and trying to work out a compromise that everybody can live with, but there is only a couple of us that want to be civil and diplomatic. There are a few editors who want things done their way, and have no issue trying to bully the rest of the project. What do you think this looks like. You don't like my opinion and my vote on consensus. You have tried to link guidelines that don't even come close to applying, you have tried to tell me and other people that we have violated rules that we haven't violated, you have threatened to get us blocked or banned, and when we still don't fold and continue to voice our opinion, you resort to trying to get an admin to help you out. It's only a couple of you editors but you are making this project look like a bunch of cyber bullies. Take a step back and take an honest evaluation of your actions and how they reflect on the project. The truth is that the way you guys are making this project look, Misplaced Pages could step in, shut this project down, and I wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't blame them either. How about give up trying to dictate the project and work together as a team. Another editor and I have been trying to get everybody to compromise on solutions to the problems. How about being a team player and compromise and work out a solution that everybody can live with it.Willdawg111 (talk) 16:48, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm hoping if I can get all needed templates created to match the format we'll be able to circumvent some of this. It's not perfect as the templates are really simple. If I went crazy we'd have separate parameters for decision and judges votes so the formatting can be changed but honestly that's getting a wee bit crazy to me, especially with MMABot around to (eventually) help out with formatting changes. Ravensfire (talk) 16:10, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I would still love to hear suggestions from any, mostly neutral, person about how to handle this situation moving forward. It can be one of the five options I thought about above or another option I am blind to. --TreyGeek (talk) 01:24, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

You have been missing the correct option for a month now. It's called COMPROMISE and work together with everybody as a team. If you are looking for options on how to force everybody to see everything your way and do everything the way you want it, it isn't going to happen. There isn't any guidelines that allow you to do that. All you have to do is accept the fact that all active editors are equal and their opinons are equally important. Compromise and work with everybody. Willdawg111 (talk) 02:50, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

There is already a group of people working on the new format for presenting event results. You can find that discussion here. I've had relatively little input on that avenue other suggesting some minor tweaks and offering the services of MMABot to help convert the 800 or so event articles to use the new format. I notice that Willdawg hasn't bothered to join in that discussion. Just because no one has seen the merits to Willdawg's suggested changes doesn't mean there isn't an effort to discuss the upcoming changes and work as a team by members of the Wikiproject. There have been a number of times over the years that my suggested changes and formatting hasn't been accepted by the project. I accept that it wasn't accepted by others and work on other things. Willdawg seems intent on not doing so. So again, I'd like to hear suggestions from mostly neutral editors on how I should handle this situation going forward. --TreyGeek (talk) 05:13, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I voiced my concerns about 1 person programming something that will edit all the article within the project and he deletes it. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:MMABot&action=history . This is a perfect example of his unwillingness to accept and attempting to surpress any opinion other than his own. Willdawg111 (talk) 14:56, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I removed a message from a user talk page for one of my accounts (an alternate account that I opened as per Misplaced Pages's policies) as per WP:REMOVED. There have already been multiple people giving support for MMABot to continue its efforts (not that I thought there was a lack of support for it).(link) This suggests to me that if the WikiProject doesn't bow down to Willdawg's desires/wants/opinions we're the bad guys, all of us in the project. I'd be happy for an admin to close out this ANI, that I started, if I could get feedback on how to handle Willdawg moving forward. I honestly don't know what I should do or what the WikiProject should do. --TreyGeek (talk) 17:43, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

What you need to do is keep on keeping on. If a discussion gets out of hand, pull in an administrator. Play by the rules and make sure you have consensus for whatever you want to do. This thread is not going to lead to a block or anything like that, so move on. We'll keep an eye on matters, or we'll try to. Drmies (talk) 00:20, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

A more fundamental question

Special:Contributions/110.33.241.238: Grudge?

Not sure where the rage is coming from here; unless User:Matthijsvdr is a sock, I don't see why edit summaries such as "Can you please actually just go away and die?" and "Reverted edits of Matthijsvdr because he is a retard." could in any way be construed as constructive. ⁓ Hello71 20:40, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

110's edit summaries are calming down, it appears. If you think they are a sock, the correct place to file is WP:SPI, not here. On the rudeness, I would like to see what 110 has to say here first. KillerChihuahua 20:47, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, after Hello71's warning, he's stopped editing. He protested on Hello71's talk page that User:Matthijsvdr had somehow done something to warrant such incivil fury, which he had not from what I can see. After that, there's nothing. If he doesn't take any further action with regards to Matthijsvdr, Hello71, or this thread, I'd say the warning did its job and with any luck he'll assume good faith in the future. (It might be a good idea for someone to very politely give him a nudge in the right direction with links to WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL, just so he gets the whole picture.) Rutebega (talk) 02:51, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

How can I assume good faith when some user who I can only guess registered for the sole purpose of undoing edits on each season page of American Dad! messed them all up? I don't understand this concept of "good faith" Misplaced Pages editors are supposed to assume. Those edits were not in good faith to me; they showed blatant disregard for work anyone else had done on the pages. And no, I haven't stopped editing; I went to sleep. To be honest, I wouldn't have blown up and oh Lord, used a profanity on Misplaced Pages if the other editor hadn't been so reckless. I think a lot of other Misplaced Pages editors are rude and stubborn in ways that don't always result in such outright statements. It's a line of thinking like, "I'm a registered editor, I'm going to revert your edits because you're an IP address and I automatically assume you're wrong"; I'm just more open about it when I see someone who must be braindead to make such unconstructive edits. Also, I don't understand Hello71 saying "unless User:Matthijsvdr is a sock, I don't see why edit summaries such as could in any way be construed as constructive". Is that supposed to imply that if the user was a sockpuppet, those edit summaries would somehow be "constructive"? That was a poor choice of words. As was "grudge", because a grudge is usually a long-term thing. This was a fuss over a few reversions in the space of a few minutes. You can all let it go now. 110.33.241.238 (talk) 07:36, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd love to let it go, but I don't think you understand that your actions were deplorable. "What AN/I hath wrought, let no man attempt to smooth over". Matthijsvdr made several mistakes in editing. That happens. He's new. Your reaction, however was in blatant violation of WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. Not only had Matthijsvdr done nothing to deserve your incivility, our policy on wikipedia is to extend civility to all, whether they deserve it or not. You have failed to express any legitimate regret for calling Matthijsvdr a "retard," or any of your other incivil comments. If you intend to continue editing wikipedia, you will experience many editors who make edits you disagree with, and the way to deal with that is through civil discussion, not with personal attacks in edit summaries. I honestly hope you can understand that other users are not to be treated that way, no matter their infractions. If you see edits that appear to be erroneous or nonconstructive, assume that the editor merely made the edits out of ignorance or an honest mistake, rather than out of malice or ill intention. As far as I'm concerned, the next time you display gross incivility, you will receive one final warning. Do try to keep your name away from AN/I in the future. Rutebega (talk) 18:57, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I know quite well that you want me to express regret and I fully understand that I'm supposed to act civil, but I can't lie and pretend I feel regret for my actions when I don't. It might not look it from where I'm making these comments, but I've been editing Misplaced Pages for over eight years under various IPs (as they do vary with time), so trust me when I say I know the way editors are supposed to act and I know I went beyond that. However, as humans, not automatons on computers, I think we can all admit we get caught up in the moment. I'm not trying to make an excuse nor get you to sympathise, but that's my reasoning. Honestly, there's only been a handful of times I've been caught up in voraciously editing to the point of an infraction. You'd probably say that I should know better, but it's a matter of principle at this point in sticking by what I said (what I view with hindsight as insulting another editor for their very misguided and frustrating edits). Also, my IP address is not a "name", and trust me when I say I do intend to keep away from this page in the future—primarily because this supposed mediation never changes anything, and only proves my point that editors can pretend to act civil and "welcoming" to IP editors, but when it comes down to it, they feel superior. Reply if you want, but I feel like there's nothing left to say. 110.33.241.238 (talk) 20:33, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

There is no such thing as WP:YOUMUSTAPOLOGIZE, and I won't ask you to. As long as you understand that what you did was in violation of policy and that there will be consequences if you repeat the infraction, then I'm satisfied. As for a systemic bias against IP editors, I don't think anybody would claim it doesn't exist, and as much as we may desire to change that, it will always be present. You are, however, free to create an account at any time if you can't put up with the discrimination. Thank you for participating in this discussion. Rutebega (talk) 22:37, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Well that was the first and last time i did something on wikipedia, and probely will delete my account. All the changes i made i placed in the edit summary the following link -> http://www.fox.com/americandad/recaps/ with some text, showing that wikipedia information about american dad is not matching with the official show website. But i guess trying to correct this gets reverted right away so why the hell bother right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthijsvdr (talk • contribs) 00:03, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Germans

I think attention here is warranted, a consensus is forming for redefining Germans to "ethnic Germans" a concept that has no working definition but which is depends entirely to subjective and bigoted criteria and which would leave millions of German citizens outside of the scope of the article on their own nationality. I had to unwatch the talkpage myself though, I couldn't stomach it.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:47, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Amazing -- a section heading "Karl Marx and Albert Einstein are not Germans" - people arguing they should be removed from the infobox because they are Jews and not ethnically German. I'm not sure what we should be doing about this but it needs more eyes. Dougweller (talk) 15:57, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Guitar hero on the roof

It turns out that Germans is not the only article where this user has been pushing the POV that Jews cannot simultaneously hold any other ethnicity. (He justifies this using what appears to be a thoroughly racist definition of ethnicity that cannot be reconciled with the definitions in ethnic group.) He has also been working to skew articles on Austrians and Poles. Apparently, Talk:Germans is merely the location where his agenda of exterminating Jews from other ethnicities first encountered serious opposition. (Apparently Marx and Einstein wasn't German as well as Jewish, Freud wasn't Austrian as well as Jewish, and two Polish Jews cannot possibly have been Polish as well as Jews.)

Someone should check his contributions to articles on Jews in various countries. It appears he mostly added infoboxes. They should be checked for POV problems.

There are also serious behavioural problems that may warrant direct admin intervention. The situation is unlikely to calm down without some kind of restriction on this user, and the longer they are active, the more cleanup work may be required afterwards. Hans Adler 14:13, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion its content issue and thus should be decided on relevant talk pages.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 14:28, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

That's the thing, it already was. The article talks about ethnic Germans (we had people who didn't agree with that claim that eventually agreed with it), when ethnic Germans=Germanic people who formed together by union and assimilation the German ethnicity during the Holy Roman Empire, therefore we, Jews, are obviosuyl not a part of that ethnicity because we are a separate ethnic group. This guy came, didn't read or take part in a discussion which lasted for 2 weeks and not suddenly starts his weird destruptive behaviour calling people racist and neo-Nazis. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 14:41, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't call canvassing several other wikipedia users when you couldn't win the discussion you were having, then ganging up on the sole person who opposed you, accusing him of being racist and telling him he had mental problems and he should get help until he ragequit, saying he just wanted to 'get it over with' a consensus; or someone agreeing with you for that matter. - Rex (talk) 13:49, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) When a "content issue" spans many pages, it becomes a behavioral issue. I would point out that Guitar hero has—and continues—to engage in canvassing, with odious comments at that. See User talk:Malik Shabazz#Claims Jews are not an ethnic group for one example. More recent examples include these, made today. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 14:42, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

If there was canvassing this clearly a behavioral issue. Did the user canvassed after being warned?--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 14:47, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Twice after the first warning. See my warning on user's talk page. Hans Adler 14:54, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Dude, you are such a weirdo running here. On Poles and Austrians I stoped because the articles are aimed at nationality (which I said ages ago). The Germans article is talking about ethnicity, which was discussed on the talk page. We actually reached a concensus until you came and try to use your private definitions. I am Jewish myself and me and other Jews brought up a fact that Jews are a separate ethnic group, you are being racist by trying to play with those facts so please stop lying :-) We brought quotes by Einstein on the page saying he's not German and doesnt like Germans. I'm a Jew who had ancestors who faught against the Nazis or died at the holocaust and their adler guy dared to call me neo-Nazi, while the querstion is what was his great-grandfather doing in 1941! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 14:32, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

No personal attacks, please. What any of our ancestors may have been doing during WWII is irrelevant; nor do I have any way of knowing whether you, or Hans Adler, or anyone else here is fairly representing their own ethnicity. You are in no more of a position than anyone else to determine who is or is not German. It is not at all widely accepted that each person is uniquely a member of one ethnic group - quite the reverse. Jewishness does not preclude membership of other ethnicities. AlexTiefling (talk) 14:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

The main problems are racist POV pushing / IDHT (the user simply ignores the modern definition of ethnicity and pushes a 1930s purely genetic one) and canvassing (see my warning on user's talk page). Hans Adler 14:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Also edit warring to restore the non-neutral talk page section heading that featured in his lates canvassing campaign: Hans Adler 14:53, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Shrike admonished me for calling the user racist, but Talk:German is full of evidence and it's relevant in this context. Example:

"A person can choose an identity, like an Italian American can see his main identity as American and not feel Italian in any way, but ethnically he will still be Italian, it's not changeable. It's your genes, where your ancestors came from. I don't see what's your problem just admitting the fact that Jews are a separate ethnicity. Einstein never identified as a German but for a reason a few Germans here insist on having some ownership on him (after trying to kill him and his people)."

This is not any official modern definition of ethnicity, but an obsolete, racist one. Hans Adler 15:05, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that you are tendentiously advancing a modern "PC" definition rather than a historically correct one. Carrite (talk) 16:56, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me you don't know what you are talking about. The "historically correct" one was outphased fifty years ago because it is nonsensical and cannot be implemented in reality without absurd consequences. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:58, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Then maybe you want to get involved with the ethnic group article. Incidentally, the corresponding German article agrees with the English one that the way people think about membership is much more important than any genes, and even says explicitly that the members of national minorities in Germany (Danes, Frisians, Sinti and Roma, Sorbs) are considered to be of German ethnicity even though they speak different languages (and obviously belong to other ethnicities as well). Hans Adler 19:55, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

• I actually very recently had the occasion to insert a link to Germans in the current piece I'm writing; I made the actual link-words showing in the article "ethnic German" rather than "German" because that is exactly what I was trying to say. There is no need to give the page the title "Ethnic Germans" although that is precisely the topic of the piece. Ethnic Jews are ethnic Jews, ethnic Germans are ethnic Germans. Karl Marx would be a "German Jew"... This is neither difficult nor racist but somehow there are a lot of Americans in particular who have trouble with the concept that the Hebrew nationality (to reuse a really old word) and the Judaic religion are not one and the same, even though are both called "Jewish." The Holocaust was an attempt to wipe out a nationality; Israel is the nation-state of a nationality, not a religion, etc. The matter of ethnicity matters less and less over time in biography writing, Early 21st century figures exponentially less than early 20th Century figures... But it is absurd to pretend that there is no such thing. Carrite (talk) 16:52, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure you got the point. There is no disagreement on whether ethnicities exist. The disagreement is on whether you have two of them if your family has been mixing freely with both of them for a few generations, whether it is ultimately about genes or about behaviour, and whether "German Jew" always means ethnically Jewish but happens to live in Germany, or can mean ethnically both German and Jewish. But this seems to be a content discussion. Hans Adler 16:59, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, more or less a content discussion. Cultural assimilation muddies the waters, to be sure. Like I say, noting ethnicity in a BLP is orders of magnitude less important than noting ethnicity in a biography from three or four generations ago... Carrite (talk) 17:02, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

It is not about the content issue - the content issue is solved by the fact that no-one has been able to produce a source saying that it is impossible to be an ethnic Jew and an ethnic German at the same time. This is about tendentious disruptive editing from Guitar hero. If he had at any point backed his views with sources instead of merely repeating flat statements about wehat is a fact regarding the complex topic of ethnicity then this wouldn't have been a problem. If he had also refrained from misrepresenting statements of others and falsely claiming that his views is backed by consensus and further discussion should cease then we would have less of a problem still.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:58, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll help you out one comment down... Carrite (talk) 02:35, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Karl Marx is actually a pretty good example for your point, come to think of it, being both a "German Jew" and "German-Jew" (mama was ethnic German, daddy ethnic Jew)... Carrite (talk) 17:10, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Marx's father was not an ethnic Jew - he did not consider himself to be Jewish but in fact changed his name and his religion in order not to be associated with Jewish ethnicity/identity. This is exactly what Einstein did when he dissasociated himself from his German identity - which is the reason we are reaching a consensus not to include him in the infobox. Marx himself was an anti-semite and an atheist, and clearly and unequivocally identified as a German so also not an ethnic Jew by a long shot. He was baptised and celebrated christmas, didn't speak Yiddish or study Hebrew, didn't wear a yarmulke, didn't study the torah, and didn't practice anything associated with a jewish cultural/ethnic identity. The only way to consider Marx a Jew is by implmenting a blood criterion for group membership in which case Marx and would still be BOTH Jewish and German.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:08, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Uhhhh, that's pretty much a fringe view from where I'm sitting... I'll refer you to a book by one of my professors at Oregon State U., the late Murray Wolfson, god bless him: Karl Marx: Economist, Philosopher, Jew. Carrite (talk) 02:33, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but you leveled an accusation of "PC" and assumed the mantle of "historically correct".

Pray tell, do continue.--Ubikwit (talk) 17:18, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

(after ec) Leaving aside cultural assimilation issues, it ought not to be controversial, or regarded as unduly PC (whatever that means) to point out the existence of mixed-ethnicity people like Marx. To return to the user behaviour issue, rather than the content issue, I think it is highly tendentious of 'Guitar hero on the roof' to suggest otherwise, by claiming that being (ethnically) Jewish disqualifies you from also being (ethnically) German. We rely on Reliable Sources here, not the uncited claims of individuals that one user claims to know. I would also draw attention to their battleground mentality, and their attempt to implicate Hans Adler's ancestors in WW2 atrocities. (His great-grandfathers, no less. How young are you all? My grandparents fought in WW2.) AlexTiefling (talk) 17:24, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I didn't mean to digress there into content issues.

The fact that there is a somewhat repugnant personal attack, which you have diplomatically drawn attention to, is perhaps indicative of the reason for the existence of this thread.--Ubikwit (talk) 18:25, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

"Indicative for the reason" maybe, but it's not the reason, in case that's not clear. Such attacks are only pseudo-personal and can't hurt me as much as historical knowledge does. On the other hand, in this case they seem to be a symptom of an unhealthy approach to editor interactions in which consensus is seen as something to be manufactured through canvassing and timing tricks and then enforced against the losers, rather than the result of a debate in which everybody learns and everybody wins.

I am still optimistic that we will get to such a point eventually, but the current climate at the talk page is absurd. When you think you have seen it all, someone comes along and claims that the number 88 is always automatically a WP:UPOL violation, regardless of context. The level of suspiciousness is mind-boggling. Hans Adler 18:50, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

• Personally, I think there might be some merit to this dialogue. I don't suppose any article on peoples must include a portrait of a specific individual. Their pics (like all pictures in an ad-hoc gallery of loosely connected individuals) have more-less sentimental value, and therefore feed into a variety of personal pride among various editors. Replacing any thumbnail in a hand-made collage will not change the actual biography of anybody, obviously. For example, quite a few photographs I once added to Polish Jews have long been replaced by other names. I accepted that (with only a brief comment in talk, once), and never looked back. Can you do the same? “Put a bandaid on it... and stop the bleeding now” (John Lennon, Double Fantasy). Poeticbent talk 22:36, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

It is not about whether there is merit to the discussion it is about Guitar hero's behavior in the discussion. There is merit to the discussion but not to his arguments which rely entirely on unsupported claims that his definition of ethnicity is right and the majority of editors who disagree with him is wrong but which he nonetheless keeps repeating ad nauseam.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:27, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

So will the result of this discussion be that there can't be anyone designated as American because there is no such ethnicity as American? RNealK (talk) 22:47, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

You know, I thought the subject of this discussion was supposed to be the behavior of a certain editor. Isn't the rest of this content discussion more appropriate to some article's talk page? Gtwfan52 (talk) 06:34, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• Guitar hero's editing is disruptive and tendentious in the extreme, he repeatedly misrepresents statements by other editors, he falsely claims consensus when the discussion doesn't go his way, and repeats unsupported claims and definitions ad nauseam without ever providing a shred of sourcing. The fact that many of his statements are borderline racist woudl be less problematic if he would at least show which sources he get them from instead of merely repetitively claiming that it is "a fact". He needs some serious talking to about how we do things around here at wikipedia.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:24, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Really, my behavious is disruptive :-) ? That's funny coming from a troll like you who goes psycho when people don't agree with him. I think you need a tralk regarding the fact you don't own Misplaced Pages. My quotes have no racism at all, much less then your dictator views. What I say is ethnicity is based on identity and common origin, and where is the racism? I always said all ethnicities are equal as humans and deserve equal rights. Also, being of different ethnicities doesnt effect your nationality or rights as a member of a nationality. Being Jewish doesnt prevent you from being German by nationality and doesnt mean you have rights, but it doesnt make you ethnically German. I am Jewish with roots and Germany and I am not of German ethnicity.

This quote was used against me: "A person can choose an identity, like an Italian American can see his main identity as American and not feel Italian in any way, but ethnically he will still be Italian, it's not changeable. It's your genes, where your ancestors came from. I don't see what's your problem just admitting the fact that Jews are a separate ethnicity. Einstein never identified as a German but for a reason a few Germans here insist on having some ownership on him (after trying to kill him and his people)." Where is the racism in what I said? it's true! Regarding Einstein, he actually said he wants nothing to do with Germany or Germans and he is a Jew and that is his identity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 16:03, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Was I not clear when I asked you to refrain from personal attacks? Please, permanently, stop referring to other users as trolls, dictators, and 'psycho'. It's disruptive and unhelpful, and it harms your case. If you want to argue the question about ethnicity, do it somewhere else, bring reliable sources, and be prepared to accept the existence of people with multiple ethnicities. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

When someone calls me racist or neo-Nazi it's fine, but when I use dictator and troll it's wrong? Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 17:29, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

If someone has called you a neo-Nazi then I think you should provide the diff here and then I am sure the user who did so will be reprimanded, because that is of course a personal attack.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:48, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Would all you admins & other who should know better please heed Gtwfan52's suggestion to stop talking content and address the behavior? NE Ent 16:12, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

yes you are right. Sorry for losing track. Guitar hero's behavior is disruptive and he needs to be told not to canvas, not to repeat unsupported arguments ad nauseam, not to misrepresent statements by others on talkpages, not to claim consensus in order to close ongoing discussions.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:15, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

They've been told all that. Can we just skip to the part when someone with sysop bit finally gets fed up enough to apply a block? NE Ent 16:16, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

In the least there are behavioral issues that need to be addressed so the discussion can proceed as calmly as possible. I.e. Guitar's disregards the attempts to hat off-topic discussion as can be seen here. If hatting doesn't work, then it just goes on and on. Truthkeeper (talk) 16:58, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

If Guitar hero on the roof really thinks that ethnicity is "your genes", and wishes this absurd statement to be reflected in article content, he/she has no business editing any article where ethnicity is of concern, and should be topic banned on the grounds of promoting wilful ignorance. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:17, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Well I wouldn't say that, but he should be expected to back his claims up with sources, and when unable to do so to simply shut up and let others move on, and failing to do that, then yes he should be blocked.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:19, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I never said it's only genes. I said it's origin (genes), history and idenetity. And no, ethnicity is not changable. And it's not my definition. What makes me a Jew? I'm not religious and don't consider myself to have a religion, I speak English, so what makes me a Jew? The fact my ancestors were Jews and belong to the ethnicity which came to be known as Jews.

Yes you did. It is even quoted above in this discussion. Here is the dif, which mentions nothing about "genes, history and identity", it just says "genes", several times in fact. --Saddhiyama (talk) 17:34, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I really don't care what is reflected in the article. If you read the discussion you will see my point was: If Germans are about the ethnic group, that Marx and Einstein should not be in the infobox (Einstein himself said he hates Germany and Germans). If the article about Germans as nationality, it's racism not to include a Turk due to the fact Turkish people are the second largest ethnic group in German nationality. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 17:29, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• I've blocked this user 48 hours to allow pondering of the complexity of race and ethnicity to take place. I have proposed the user avoid the area which led to so much disruption entirely in the future. Do these actions enjoy consensus? If not I will be happy to reverse them. --John (talk) 17:51, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

If anything he should be blocked for canvassing and violation of WP:NPA but not for having his own legitimate WP:YESPOV--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 18:00, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Noone has suggested that he should be blocked for his POV, just for the way in which he was seeking to implement it with no recourse to rational argumentation or backing by sources. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:06, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

(ec) I'm at least as concerned about the personal attacks, including several right here in this thread, such as "a troll like you who goes psycho" - this is not acceptable. KillerChihuahua 18:07, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I completely agree that Guitar Hero's conduct has been disruptive here, and I have purposely avoided reading the talks. Calling Mannus a troll is way over the top. However, have you all failed to note that this is a user that has less than a month's experience? As Shrike has pointed out, this editor's POV is perfectly valid; he just needs to learn to argue it. Would he consider coming back from his current block to a one month topic ban during which time he takes on a mentor? He can learn to argue a position talking about the Maryland Terrapins football team, or some other less volatle (for him) topic while having someone to guide him. Just one man's opinion. Gtwfan52 (talk) 18:28, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Also this violation didn't happen in vacuum when someone implying that you might be a Neo-Nazi this may rise the heat up.Of course this doesn't excuse him for violation of WP:NPA but the user:Hans Adler should get some administrative sanction too as he far more experienced. --Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 20:26, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Hans Adler does not call anyone a Neo-nazi in that diff - he makes the point that we cannot know eachother's identities in an internet discussion and therefore cannot use claims about our identities as leverage in a discussion. Guitar hero had himself been going on with personal attacks for two weeks when Hans Adler appeared, and had to apologize to User:Illraute for equating German users with perpetrators of the holocaust.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:26, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

"A person can choose an identity, like an Italian American can see his main identity as American and not feel Italian in any way, but ethnically he will still be Italian, 'it's not changeable.ì It's your genes, where your ancestors came from.

That's not only a personal view, but dangerously simplistic and ideological. Identity/ethnicity/ etc are extremely difficult concepts to handle, and the only appropriate way to edit aricles regarding this is by restricting edits to paraphrases of the content of quality academic sources bearing on the subject. I was reminded, reading the tripe above, of the Holocaut survivor, emeritus biologist and author Alain F. Corcos's The Myth of the Jewish Race: A Biologist's Point of View,

‘

All my life I discovered that anti-Semites are not concerned about personal beliefs or even religious doctrines. Rather, they regard Jewishness as inherited, just like original sin. . As a trained biologist and geneticist, I am convinced there are not and never were human races, because groups of people have never been isolated from one another long enough to form distinct races..p.10 Years ago I accompanied my brother Gilles, and a young couple with two boys.on a hike in Point Reyes National Seashore, 25 miles north of San Francisco. The mother of the two boys, who knew that Gilles and I had escaped from Nazi France during World War 11, asked us:”Why did you escape? Was it because you were Jewish?” Gilles answered very quickly: “I am, but my brother is not.” I was amazed at his response because a few years before he would have simply replied:”Yes, we are Jews.” Such as answer is consistent with the idea that Jewishness is inherited. . .That concept was pounded into our brains during our youth by racist propagandists. It took years to rid myslf of this false and deadly idea. On that afternoon in California had Gilles finally realizd that being a Jew was a personal choice and not, as we were told, due to a specific biuological characteristic? . .Like Ashley Montagu, I define a Jew as someone who professes the Jewish religion.’ Pp.15-16 Nishidani (talk) 14:39, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

topic-ban?

I've left a longer comment at the user's talk page. I am happy to enforce the topic ban going forward, as long as there is not a consensus here that this is too heavy-handed. I do take Gtwfan's point about this being a relatively new user who we should not bite. However, as I've pointed out, I don't think for the moment that they can help us in these sensitive areas. There may be other areas where they can. What do folks think? --John (talk) 23:12, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• If behavior continues after block expires, topic ban is badly needed. (it is, btw, the most reasoned and well-defined rationale for a topic ban I've read) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 23:22, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
• Agree - on both points. Very well written indeed. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:25, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Agree per Seb az86556.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:42, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• I agree with both the block and subsequent topic ban. Guitar hero's demeanour here on this page strengthens my conviction that these actions are appropriate, especially his statement just above, "I really don't care what is reflected in the article". If you don't care about that, what are you doing on the article talkpage at all? (Yes yes, I'm being rhetorical: I am aware that Guitar hero can't reply here.) Did I misunderstand that statement in some way? (It seems oddly disconnected.) You have never edited the article as far as I can see; just the talkpage. That points to your using it as a forum, which is not what it's for. The talkpage is a place for discussing improvements to the article, not a forum for people to promote their opinions and ideology, as is clearly stated in the template at the top. You might want to study the talkpage policy while you're away. Bishonen | talk 01:04, 17 January 2013 (UTC).
• Support block and topic ban. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:12, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support block and topic ban. Not seeing any other way forward with this editor at this time. KillerChihuahua 02:02, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Obvious battleground behaviour compared with SPA-symptoms. --Saddhiyama (talk) 02:32, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - His comments in this thread seem on-point and historically accurate. Stop the fucking steamroller. Carrite (talk) 02:38, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - I support the block, but not the topic ban. His personal insults and canvassing are things I have repeatedly warned him about, and yet he continued. I think a short vacation will do him some good. However, he did make some very good points in that thread and I feel that he might be a valuable contributor, if he can learn to keep his temper in check.Evildoer187 (talk) 05:03, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support block and topic ban - This is the kind of editor we have no need for. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:52, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: The topic ban has nothing to do with his accuracy or content in any way. This is about his behavior. There is no "fucking steamroller" to stop; there is an editor who seems a bit too passionate about the topic. He can make all the "good points" in the world, but if he combines that with personal attacks, he needs separating from the topic which results in his lack of respect for his fellow editors. If he cannot control his passion, he needs to be elsewhere. KillerChihuahua 05:56, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support block and topic ban. Unfortunately seems to be a case of WP:NOTHERE. Mathsci (talk) 06:00, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support block, support topic ban if he continues to fill article talk pages with insults and other irrelevancies. Guitar, successfully editing Misplaced Pages articles, and prevailing in content discussions, depends on the quality of your sources. If you can't find a recent very high quality source that says exactly what you're asserting, say nothing. Assertions that you're Jewish and therefore can't be racist are rightly sneered at, and epithets such as "troll", at least on article talk pages, will get you at least topic- if not site-banned. Improve the quality of your rhetoric. Dramatically lift your game. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:33, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I do not support topic ban, he made very good points regarding the issue, the way how he presented it was wrong. However, he is far from being lonely on this issue here as well as sadly in other articles. I agree that his personal insults were unacceptable. That is why he is blocked and that is enough.--Tritomex (talk) 10:00, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment Support short term block for canvassing and violation of WP:NPA.I don't think that topic ban is needed.Also I think that this user should get a mentor.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 10:15, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban - His latest remark on his talk page is to tell Adler that the last person to assert that the Sorbs are German was Hitler. Until this user stops wilfully associating German-named editors that he disagrees with to Naziism, I don't think he can be relied on even to discuss this topic productively, much less edit on it. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:27, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Agree as per John.Nishidani (talk) 14:39, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Agree -the user has shown no willingness or abilty to discuss or support his POV with suitable sources and does not seem to understand the point of doing so. His understanding of ethnicity is valid, but extremely one-sided, and he does not acknowledge the complexity of the term or allow any deviation from his opinion. Until the user has shown that he acknowledges that alternative definitions of the term do exist, Guitar hero should be banned from the topic. A mentor might be a good idea also. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 17:38, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Agree as per John and others.

The user has not been receptive to engaging with new information presented to them by other users in relation to their POV. In this case, the schools of though on ethnicity described under Ethnicity#Approaches_to_understanding_ethnicity have been introduced to the user, assuming that he read the section. Even so, he continues to argue in an exclusionary manner solely for a position that would probably fall under the "Essentialist primordialism" category, providing no sources to support specific claims he makes, and resorting to personal attacks when met with rational disagreements made in good faith.--Ubikwit (talk) 17:52, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

• Conditional oppose topic ban. If he agrees to apologize to others for the insults and promises to focus on content, this might be more constructive than topic-ban with no apology to anybody required. Please take a look at a lively discussion on his talk page with good comment by KillerChihuahua. We all need to learn to argue our points properly, as necessary also in the real world. Editing Misplaced Pages is a good venue for learning that. A hot debate is not the same as the disruptive editing in main space, sockpuppetry with ulterior motives, or the 3RR violations in controversial areas. I would support behavioral blocks only but growing with an arithmetic progression in case there’s no improvement. Poeticbent talk 18:19, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support but I think discussions on his/her user talk page should not fall under the topic ban as the problem is a combination of extreme activity and WP:IDHT rather than anything more immediately serious. That would also provide a chance to demonstrate a learned lesson about the fact that different people mean different things when using the same words and similar problems related to WP:AGF, potentially allowing a lift of the topic ban. (I responded to Maunus' ANI report and am now highly involved – like many of those opining above.) Hans Adler 22:55, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Block extended, talk page access revoked

I noticed Guitar hero had not really addressed his poor behaviour but was continuing to use his talk page as a chat room to discuss his theories on race and ethnicity, exactly as I had instructed him not to. I have therefore extended the block to a week and revoked talk page access. --John (talk) 20:59, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

• Excellent call. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 21:01, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks. Per Maunus's appeal I have restored the original block settings. This user needs to realise he has just about exhausted our patience though. --John (talk) 21:20, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Thanks for undoing your last action. It was the right thing to do and I would have asked you as well. Also thanks for taking the initiative with the block and topic ban. Let's hope the situation calms down now. Unfortunately the situation is still much more adversarial and full of suspicion than seems reasonable to me. Hans Adler 23:03, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

MMA country of birth this time ISO codes

• List of current UFC fighters (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch
• Beansy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

It would appear that Beansy has found a way round the removal of the flag icons from MMA articles, this time inserting the ISO codes for the country of birth into List of current UFC fighters, this I believe is a clear attempt to circumvent the spirit of the RfC on on flags, namely as there is no national representation in MMA highlighting a competitors place of birth in such a way is not appropriate for an encyclopedia, it is only important to dedicated fans (WP:FANCRUFT). I have brought this here instead of the article or project talk page as it is clear that no attempt at the talk or project page will not be respectful of wiki wide MOS, guidelines and policies. I have reverted the article to the state it was at prior to the addition. ✍ Mtking ✉ 08:08, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Beansy is also claiming in the edit sum of this edit that s/he is "implementing ISO country codes per an admin's specific suggestion" I can find no such admin suggestion. ✍ Mtking ✉ 08:15, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Administrator Kww made the ISO suggestion as an alternative to flags in the ongoing conversation here: WT:MOSICON#RfC_on_MOS:FLAG. It was also made as a direct reply to a comment I made. Yes, that is quite a lot of text to dig through, but Kww is clearly suggesting ISO 3-Country Codes as an alternative to flags that is more user-friendly to the visually impaired. As for the Flag Icon debate, that relates to flags specifically and not text information. This is not a "way around" the flag debate, unless your objective is to delete information outright. Either way, I am acting in complete compliance with an admin's direct suggestion to me and unless you can cite how this if violating WP guidelines without torturing the interpretation of a guideline that is already inherently subjective to the point of absurdity, I find it very difficult to see your argument as substantive. WP:FANCRUFT is about extremely esoteric information. Fighter nationality, which gets cited ad nauseam in MMA media articles and books on the subject, is anything but. Obviously if an admin comes here and says differently I will respect their ruling. Beansy (talk) 08:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Furthermore, in addition to the above, I would note that I did obtain permission of the article's author and longtime caretaker Thaddeus Venture on his talk page before making the change, in order to respect his work. Beansy (talk) 09:03, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Beansy is now clearly edit warring on the page, why is Beansy not blocked for this, he knows about the discussion yet he still continues to do just as he pleases, showing no respect and just total contempt for the community editing process; this fixation over place of birth is pure MMA fancruft, and yet another example of how the MMA fan base just rides ruff shod over the rest of the Wiki. ✍ Mtking ✉ 09:10, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

You can't get "permission of the article's author", as articles do not belong to anyone. ✍ Mtking ✉ 09:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

You started reverting the edits before I even completed them (sorry if I didn't feel it was prudent adding ISO country codes for nearly 400 fighters in just one single edit). If you wish to accuse me of initiating and edit war then please cite a clear reason why ISO country codes in an info table are in violation. Putting it on the ANI board, you certainly seem to think a serious offense has been committed. I will certainly respect the ruling of an admin here but I was acting off of an administrator's suggestion for what to replace flags with in the first place in the very discussion you are citing. As it were, MOS guidelines state that when interpretations are unclear and edit warring occurs (I would think that your deletion of information would denote the start of this particular edit war) that formatting then reverts to the first major contributor of an article or set of articles. As such even though the edits was based on an admin's suggestion I got the permission of the creator and caretaker before making any changes out of deference. If you wish to continue edit-warring until there is a verdict here, that is up to you. Until then I have no other way to view your edits than arbitrary reverts at best. I'm trying not to escalate the drama here and would appreciate it if you did not try to conjure it out of thin air. Beansy (talk) 09:33, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Isn't that what Bruce Buffer is talking about when he says stuff like "fighting out of Las Vegas,Nevada by way of Curitiba, Brazil..." every single fight? There was also a UFC event branded "UFC vs Canada". They also had a USA vs UK Ultimate Fighter. Not to mention TUF Brazil, and the upcoming TUF Mexico. TUF Phillipines will siphon all fighters from OneFC. Anyways, seems nationality is important to the UFC.PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 09:49, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

What is it with the MMA issue that everyone runs to ANI at the first hint of trouble... and apparently can't find consensus on even the tiniest issues? Shadowjams (talk) 10:48, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Basically, MMA articles have been a war zone for years. There's intractable differences that have resulted in no real progress. ANI shouldn't be the first place people go, but it's becoming more and more common as peoples nerves wear thin. — The Hand That Feeds You: 15:06, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Maybe it's time to introduce strict sactions on all MMA articles, as we have for WP:TROUBLES, WP:ARBMAC etc. GiantSnowman 15:10, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Already authorised... Salvio 15:14, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I'mma re-phrase - maybe it's time to start actually enforcing them. GiantSnowman 15:22, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Shadowjams, this one really should have been discussed either with Beansy directly or on WT:MMA. Ravensfire (talk) 15:32, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Ravensfire and I discussed this separately, and I don't take any offense at what is an easy typo (h next to j on the keyboard). I just wanted it to be clear to anyone looking just at this thread though, I'm not involved in this debate directly nor am I involved in the MMA debates on the merits. I think Ravensfire mmisunderstood my comment to indicate I was involved. I was merely making a more general statement about the frequency this stuff shows up here. Shadowjams (talk) 07:58, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

ShadowhamsShadowjams, because WT:MMA has become so toxic a discussion hub that the supporters of MMA topics refuse to accept any compromise, that the adherents to WikiRules refuste to budge from "The Blessed Rules", that the community has already authorized general sanctions to deal with disruptive editors, and that ANI is the place to request enforcement of the general sanctions. That no administrator is willing to pick up the toolset and use them suggests to me that the community authorized General Sanctions have not been successful in stemming the disruption of the topic space and Misplaced Pages at large. It has been suggested in the past that perhaps a ArbCom case may prove fruitful in explicitly authorizing ArbCom sanctions that can be dispensed with expediently at WP:AE rather than the festering sores that are now coming up on a weekly basis because one side on "The MMA question" sees the actions of the other side as violating consensus. Hasteur (talk) 15:52, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to assume there is some sort of in-joke I'm not getting, otherwise both of you identically misspelling his name like that might seem a bit insulting. 192.76.82.89 (talk) 16:52, 15 January 2013 (UTC) _{(Edit: Wrong "i" word. 192.76.82.89 (talk) 16:55, 15 January 2013 (UTC))}

Oh wow - I did bork that up. Thank you for spotting that so I can fix it. Ravensfire (talk) 17:05, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, struck the old version and put the right name inHasteur (talk) 17:09, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I've given both of these users the discretionary warning template with a "buck up" note (and suggestions for moving forward). If they continue to spat we can deploy blocks. --Errant 16:23, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

How you think it is resolved is beyond me. ✍ Mtking ✉ 17:44, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

An admin should have banned mtking long ago, that would have put a stop to all of this stupid antiMMA crap. Mmajim (talk) 01:03, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Of course you are just a brand new user, not here to grave-dance, are you? I'm sure your welcoming and open viewpoint towards things will contribute towards a positive editing environment. Ravensfire (talk) 01:12, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I believe the admins are just afraid to be outed by some 15 year old from the sherdog forum. I can't blame them. I guess I pissed off the wrong people around here. Now I understand why there is a list of admins who "make tough blocks". Next time I will seek one out the next time I'm having an issue. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 05:26, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Just as a comment to Hasteur, in my opinion this was an effort by a members of WP:MMA to step back from using flag icons, but retain the content. It's frustrating that this isn't seen as compromise. If there is anything I can do as a member of that wikiproject, please let me know. I would, if possible, like to help to remove the negativity associated with WP:MMA. Kevlar (talk) 21:25, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I just happened to notice that I had been mentioned here. To clarify my input to any of this, I am of the opinion that flag icons should be eradicated from Misplaced Pages, and that if people need to include a fixed-format nationality identifier into a table, they should use an ISO code, not a flag. ISO codes are easier for screen-readers and accessible to the colourblind. I did not, and will not, issue an opinion as to whether any particular MMA table should include a nationality identifier at all. If consensus is that the table should indicate nationality, it should use ISO codes, not flags; if consensus is that the table shouldn't include nationality, it should include neither an ISO code or flag.—Kww(talk) 23:22, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

No rational argumentation at Talk:Paul Krugman "Consensus on inclusion on the Gary Becker quote"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I believe that some of the parties engaged in the discussion at section "Consensus on inclusion on the Gary Becker quote" in Talk:Paul Krugman are failing engage in rational argumentation and are desplaying some of the problematic behaviors described in WP:CRUSH. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deicas (talk • contribs) 20:02, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

See also WP:Boomerang. Insomesia (talk) 22:46, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

WP:CRUSH, is it now? Deicas, I've had nothing to do with any of this, but I took a look at Talk:Paul Krugman and the dispute resolution noticeboard, and there you argue mainly by hurling policy citations like brickbats, and by failing to engage with what anybody else says. Misplaced Pages:Wikilawyer is merely an essay, but you have already been warned about it by a volunteer at the dispute resolution noticeboard. Seriously, instead of replying with more wikilawyering, that should have made you reconsider your style of communication. (P.S. Please sign your posts.) Bishonen | talk 10:12, 16 January 2013 (UTC).

This belongs here why?   little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  10:27, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

In fairness, OP has just over 300 edits, and while able to cite policy left and right, has not fully grasped the usual sequence for dealing with issues. As I am involved, I don't feel I should close this, but I think it is at best premature.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 14:13, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Deicas can indeed Wikilink to policy pages but most often the pages linked aren't relevant to what's actually being discussed or don't address the objection raised. Personally I'm most frustrated with Deicas's consistent failure to get the point. Genuine policy-based objections have indeed been raised by multiple editors, and all that happens is the objections get ignored or hand-waved away and Deicas simply repeats their statement, "Absent a cogent challenge to the assertion, above, I will subsequently assert that is The Consensus that..." is typical. The highly legal-ese language Deicas uses ("dispositive", "probative", etc.) isn't helping with good communication or collaboration either. Deicas has been asked to stop but it continues... Zad68 14:24, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Deicas and I went around on this material in an earlier section. I actually listened to the podcast from which the quotation was taken (and I note that there's no transcript of it, as far as I can tell, other than the partial one that I included on the talk page from my own listening), and it's blatantly obvious in context that Becker isn't trying to say something negative about Krugman not doing research at the moment. They are simply two economists from rival schools (Becker practically defines the Chicago School, Krugman is a Keynesian) who naturally disagree about a stimulus package (the topic of discussion) because they have ideological commitments to do so based on what they rival theories say. Including this statement as if it were a criticism is an obvious misrepresentation. Deicas's response to this was very long-winded and featured a lot of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT to the points I made. I cut that off because there was plainly no progress to be made. His re-raising of this issue amounts to him arrogating to himself the adjudication of what goes in and out of the article. As I've said several times, the big problem with the article as far as Krugman being a figure of controversy is that he is so not for his personal beliefs, but because he is at the moment the main public voice for Keynesianism (which is the school espoused most plainly through Obama's policies), and thus everything he says is attacked by all the Chicago and New Classical economists out there, not to mention every passing Libertarian. The only way to deal with this is to junk the present controversies section and quit pretending that Becker and the various other people mentioned as Krugman's critics speak for the field as a whole, because they don't. Anyone who is a unbiased observer of the economic world can tell you this. Deicas's response to this is to bury us in process; I don't know whether he is doing so as a tactic, but in any case the effect is to keep addressing this issue from happening by crushing every attempt at discourse under a mountain of wikilawyering. If he wants to keep pushing this here, he's going to be buried in WP:BOOMERANGs; he's the one who is really making a career out of obstruction on this article. Mangoe (talk) 20:22, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I would like to respond to the items in the thread, above, but it's going to take me several hours to get to it. Please bear with me. Deicas (talk) 00:45, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion, that is the subject of this AN/I, is riven with failures to respond dispositively to good faith requests for evidence. I will now create an annotated listing of these failures. Stand by, this might take a couple of hours.

If anyone is unsure of the meaning of "respond dispositively", above, then ask and I will provide more detail.

I call to your attention my posting: "Logical argumentation in disputes at Misplaced Pages?" Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous) Deicas (talk) 00:41, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

It should be mentioned that this ANI was started while a DR/N was still in progress, also filed by the OP here. Since no progress was being made there, I have closed the DR/N case.--Amadscientist (talk) 00:44, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

This discussion, at the AN/I, is in regard to *conduct* not *content*. Per User:Amadscientist's statement at the DRN "Content disputes are resolved here ... Conduct disputes can be submitted to AN/I".

Per User:Amadscientist's comment, just above, "As ANI was started while a DR/N was still in progress ..." has *no* bearing on this AN/I discussion, I ask him to: 1) strike-out the comment and; 2) refrain from making further irrelevant comments. Deicas (talk) 03:57, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I call your attention to my questions and statements on the talk page about which this AN/I was filed, quoting therefrom ...

I just scanned the sections, above, "What Becker actually said" and "'undue weight for off hand remark dismissal of Gary Becker statement?"

...

I found *no* other claims above that are probative for the removal of the Becker quote, cite an applicable Misplaced Pages guild line, and offer evidence to support the claim. If User:Zad68, or anyone else, finds something to the contrary, in the reference sections, then cite the item, quote it here below, and I will issue a whimpering mea culpa. Deicas (talk) 04:02, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Later I asked:

I assert, yet again, that the Becker quote and associated citation meets WP:PROVEIT, within WP:VERIFY, the criteria for inclusion in an article. Ok!? If you want to dispute that assertion go ahead and do so. Be sure to cite the applicable Misplaced Pages guide line(s) and applicable fact(s).

I further assert that, in the section above, no substantive argument has been offered dispositive to the exclusion of Becker quote. I someone wants to claim "But I already said ..." then please quote the applicable argument. Deicas (talk) 03:03, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Note that, just above, the burden of proof was shifted to those who *repeatedly* claimed that an complete argument for the removal of the quote had been made. This is the way logical argumentation operates. If anyone wants to make the claim that the principals of logical argumentation do not apply to this dispute, I encourage them to make that claim *explicitly*.

Note that I asked repeated good faith questions trying to get an answer that I could reason from. Instead all I got was not dispositive hand-waving.

The argument that was asserted to exist, but I shouldn't find, would look something like this (note this is only an *example*): "The Becker quote citation is UNDUE. It is UNDUE because the Becker does not speak with authority on the nature of Krugman's work. Therefor the Becker quote citation is to be excluded from Paul Krugman".

Please do not, in the course of this AN/I discussion, make *new* arguments regarding the Krugman quote. This AN/I concerns the conduct of the discussion as it stood at when I filed the AN/I request. Deicas (talk) 03:30, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Have you read WP:UNDUE? Especially this part:

An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

You were referred to WP:UNDUE many many times, but keep coming back with WP:V counterarguments. Nobody is arguing the content isn't verifiable. This is the source of the "I didn't hear that" frustrations that several editors have brought up. Zad68 03:53, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

This AN/I discussion deals with issue of *conduct* associated with the discussion at .

It does *not* deal with any *new* claims for the exclusion/inclusion of the Gary Becker quote. As User:Zad68's comment, just above, does not bear on the *conduct* issue I ask that he: 1) strike-out his comment and; 2) refrain from making further irrelevant comments. Deicas (talk) 04:22, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE isn't a new claim for the exclusion/inclusion of the Gary Becker quote. In fact, "undue" was the reason given to you in the very first revert (edit summary "undue weight for off hand remark") of the content a few hours after you added it. The conduct issue I'm bringing up with my question "Have you read WP:UNDUE" and the few sentences that follow it (did you miss them?) is that they highlight exactly the troublesome WP:IDHT behavior pattern we're describing here, and in fact your response to it is another example of WP:IDHT--you skipped right past the point regarding behavior that was being made. Can you see why several of your fellow editors are finding your editing behavior frustrating? Zad68 04:51, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

To person(s), in a position of authority, should I direct procedural questions regarding this AN/I? Deicas (talk) 04:32, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

You can post them right here. But you seem to be ascribing a formality to the process - here and above - that isn't really here. This is a noticeboard and discussion board, not a formal case filing etc. Once an issue is notified people often expand to examine many new aspects of a situation. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:06, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

User:Georgewilliamherbert: Thank you for your response. Please excuse my unfamiliarity with the Misplaced Pages dispute resolution process. I've read, or think I've read, the pages about dispute resolution, but I bet I missed pieces.

I note your "... not a formal case filing". In the last 10 days, or so, I I've been through interminable discussion at Talk:Paul Krugman, the BLPN, and a DRN ]. During those discussions I've observed a great deal of talking and no progress. I've also observed a *great* deal of failure to engage in logical argumentation and failure to respond dispositively to good faith questions. I view the observed pattern of conduct problems as highly problematic.

With a view toward expeditiously resolving the issues, above, I request that this AN/I be escalated to a higher level in the dispute resolution process. If this isn't the correct place to make the escalation request, then would you please point me to the correct location?

I accept and acknowledge that the conduct accusations that I am making, should they be unsustained, could result in me being sanctioned (Nb. comments "WP:BOOMERANG" comments above from User:Insomesia] and ).

How should I proceed? Deicas (talk) 11:22, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

For starters, you should back off from trying to stage-manage the discussion. Too many people object to you doing it, and it doesn't have to be done by you, and if people are behaving well, it often doesn't have to be done by anyone. Mangoe (talk) 12:43, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Can someone look into closing this? I am involved so should not, but this is a place to ask for admin action, and no admin action has been requested. It is not an admin function to ask editors to engage in rational argumentation, which is the original request.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:53, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

RfD requiring attention from an uninvolved administrator

Please could an uninvolved admin take a look at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 January 14#Sexual disorders and take any action they feel appropriate, possibly including either closing it as withdrawn/wrong venue or explicitly not doing so. I don't think any of comments there are at the level of sanction but a warning may be required for one or two parties.

Having expressed an opinion on the redirect, and being probably the most prolific editor at RfD I consider myself too involved to take any action myself. I will note the existence of this request in the discussion though. Thryduulf (talk) 20:48, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Basically, what is going on is that Robbiecee2 is a newly registered Misplaced Pages editor who has run into confusion/other complications while editing this site. I have tried to help him; for example, here at my talk page and here at his. He has since become frustrated and is now accusing me of WP:Harassment, to which I have replied.

Thryduulf filed this report before it got to the harassment accusations, however, so I'm not sure why Thryduulf started this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 22:10, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, it might not have been the best venue if he seeks a separate article to be created at Sexual disorder, but considering there is ongoing ample discussion about that possibility, as well as the option of a rename, I'll let the discussion unfold to form consensus as to what should be done. RfD isn't only about deletion. :) Salvidrim! ✉ 22:49, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

He was originally seeking to have Sexual disorders (and Sexual disorder) not redirect to Sexual dysfunction, but he went about it the wrong way. He was then advised to take the matter to WP:RfD. And then it developed from there. Things are currently okay between us. Flyer22 (talk) 23:56, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

In reply to Flyer22 - getting eyes onto a problem before it escalates to sanctionable level can prevent it getting that far which is obviously better for everyone. As I stated, it appeared to me to be getting close to that level but I'm too close to it to make an objective decision, hence my request here. Thryduulf (talk) 15:04, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

User:Noodleki

Noodleki has been deleting massive amounts of text from the 1934 article. There has been a back and forth; I have responded to his or her questions and referred him/her to the right forum. He/she has basically communicated with me through increasingly unhinged edit summaries (); has not raised the matter at the WP:RY talk page; has gotten no noticeable support from any other editors, and has not even responded to my points on his/her talk page (), all whilst complaining that I am not explaining myself to him/her. I do not want to violate WP:3RR. One concern I have is that his/her deletions are subjective and will be be followed up, if given a clear signal, with other years (i.e. 1920-1939). Quis separabit? 01:05, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Noodleki notified of AFI discussion. Quis separabit? 01:13, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

User has been blocked for 31 hours by User:Alison. gwickwire_edits 01:10, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate action has been taken, but what I'm surprised about is that multiple IPs were also involved in this saga, doing exactly the same things as Noodleki, and yet they haven't been specifically brought up here. is one with an edit summary that is pretty much the same as Noodleki was using, makes mention of the talk page without ever having edited elsewhere with that IP. I'm not completely accusing Noodleki of being these IPs, but I'm highly suspicious (they did precede her). I suggest the page is semi-protected or even fully protected pending further discussions - either Noodleki is socking, or there are a couple of different POV-pushing people involved. Lukeno94 (talk) 12:55, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, some of the mentions removed there aren't even American: the FA Cup final, Dionne quintuplets, Stanley Matthews' England debut... so the original IP's edit summary is a bit vague considering the quantity of content deleted. Lukeno94 (talk) 13:00, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Do you actually have a substantive reason as to why you disagree with the proposed edit? There are guidelines for notability that have been set down which are clearly not being met here. The entire contents of the US article have been copied over including events lacking in notability. For example, should the opening of a rodeo in Mississipi be mentioned? Or an anniversary of a Civil war battle? How about the results of a boxing match?Noodleki (talk) 22:43, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

DarkGuardianVII apparently not here to build an encyclopedia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In the three weeks this user has had an account, their contributions have been almost entirely to the talk pages of two articles: Homophobia and Heterosexism, as shown here. Their edits have been almost entirely forum talk, bordering on trolling. The pattern of disruption is oddly similar to that of Acoma Magic and began shortly after Acoma Magic's sock puppet, Zaalbar was blocked.

They were warned not to continue using the article's talk pages for discussion, several times:

• 1
• 2
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• 4

There is also an ongoing tacit refusal by this user to sign their many posts, in spite of several requests to do so. It seems that they have a divergent purpose on Misplaced Pages than the rest of us. Could an uninvolved admin please look at this an take appropriate action?

Thank you. - MrX 04:44, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

You are assuming I am a sock puppet? Also, isn't this account older than three weeks? I can distinctly remember it being older, but maybe that is one of the accounts I lost. I would actually prefer a ban since the incompetence of this administration has shown me that it is all based on assumption and not on facts. Also, I did not refuse to sign the posts. I do not know how. I am still learning here, and yet this is not a friendly site to learn how to do things. I would also suggest you actually read what I say and stop using attacks like "Border-line trolling" or just delete my account. I do not need this drama from a website that is supposed to be an information 'conglomerate' so to speak. I requested sections and also government sources be added. All you considered what I have done is trolling apparently, which could be, but isn't. The talk page was about "Phobia". If you cannot read, then I do advise you to please delete my account ASAP. Do not even bother banning, just delete it. DarkGuardianVII (talk) 05:03, 16 January 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarkGuardianVII (talk • contribs) 05:02, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

DarkGuardian - there's an entry on your Talk page instructing you how to sign posts. Did you notice it? I've also taken the liberty to indent your post above with a semi-colon. It's something else we do to help keep things readable. And re that phobia discussion, it's considered bad form to regurgitate old conversations, and ignore our FAQs, which you had explained to you on that page, yet you persisted. Do try a little harder to be part of our community by following our conventions and advice. HiLo48 (talk) 05:11, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Whoops. Sorry. It's colons for indenting. HiLo48 (talk) 05:20, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

"isn't this account older than three weeks? I can distinctly remember it being older, but maybe that is one of the accounts I lost."

That's puppetmaster-speak. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:13, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

^Example of why I want my account deleted. I do not need mindless assumptions pointed at me. The account I used to have I think was IceLight, DarkInferno, LightGuardian, or something similiar. There goes your theory. I do not think it was banned. I remember creating an account and not posting, but I could be wrong.DarkGuardianVII (talk) 05:18, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Accounts don't get deleted - if you don't want to use it any more, you can just log out and stop using it. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:33, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

@DarkGuardian, you created this account on December 25, 2012. As for your other accounts, might I suggest you find them, and place the {{Retired}} template on the user page, with a link to your current account, since sock puppetry is something we take very seriously around here. (If you would like to retire yourself, you can place it on your own userpage too.) Whatever you do, however, the discussions/rants on the Homophobia talk page need to stop. ~Adjwilley (talk) 05:38, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• I've indeffed DarkGuardianVIII for disruptive editing and WP:NOTHERE. As for the socking issues, I'm not convinced that he's Acoma Magic. DG's editing style is much more aggressive. His English expression isn't anywhere nearly as good as AM's. I thought about the possibility of him being a sock of User:Glynth who stopped editing on December 27, almost at the same time as DG started editing. Also, if you look at Talk:Homophobia, you'll see that just as Glynth drops out of sight, DG comes into the picture. However, again, a comparison of expression styles doesn't suggest (to me) that they are the same individual. All that said, the block was justified in my view without any evidence of socking. I'm going off-wiki now, so I won't be able to contribute to further discussion for a while. If another uninvolved admin feels my actions were offbase, feel free to do whatever you deem best.--Bbb23 (talk) 06:03, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism log

Just came across the following - . It's basically a log of vandalism attempts on WP over the last month or two. Hack (talk) 15:14, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• Interesting read, but isn't that like doing investigative journalism about shoplifting by going into shops, stealing stuff, and then logging what you did? Not exactly big or clever. --Ritchie333 15:21, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Blocked User:Dumbledalf from that page as another sock. ·Add§hore· 15:35, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I gave a quick read and guess most of the vandals are IP-blocked now, excepting a few accounts whose name had been hidden by stars (Example- Account: *****). Wonder why the vandal distributed his passwords? LOL. Wiki4Blog (talk) 15:54, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

To show that he doesn't really care probably. The accounts aren't really anything to him, not exactly a secure password anyway. ·Add§hore· 16:00, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

A previous discussion is here, Hack (talk) 16:23, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Reads like a thesis.--Auric talk 19:01, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Editor Wee Curry Monster moving my comments around

There's currently a discussion ongoing at Talk:Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute. Editor Wee Curry Monster somehow thought it would be appropriate to move my comment about the removal of a section to a new section called "Separate section for comments on individual editors", which he alone came up with, with the summary "move rambling personal attack to appropriate section". I advised him to not mess with my comments again or I'd report him here and then I moved my comment to the right section again. He swiftly deleted my message at his talk page and proceeded to move my comment once again with the sarcastic summary "WP:IAR". This is not acceptable and needs to stop.

The comment I moved is nothing but personal attacks against editors. Yes I did move it to a separate section, since it contained nothing about content and filibustering is a problem with this editor (see below). I would normally not move a talk page comment per WP:TPG but considered this a case per WP:IAR as an exception. If that is criticised I won't be doing it again.

WP:BOOMERANG, which Gaba p has been warned about:

Frequent personal attacks eg ,,,

Edit warring constantly, never follows WP:BRD eg ,,,. Noting the comments from the previous ANI session I have endeavoured to avoid edit warring with the editor by using tags to bring attention to other editors to address issues but he will edit war to remove those .

WP:FILIBUSTERS. Classic tactic, text demanding detailed answers , disputes response then claims no response obtained .

Most edits rely on WP:OR or WP:SYN, constantly pushing WP:POV and working in a WP:TAG team with User:Langus-txt to force material into an article.

Abusive edit summaries , cherry picked quotes and partisan sources. This is an editor who is single minded about conducting his editing in a disruptive and confrontational manner. I believe given recent comments he has been deliberately seeking confrontation in order to have himself and several other editors topic banned per the last session here. Likely this editor is a sock of the bannned sock puppet master User:Alex79818. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:06, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

ADD: diff of my edit, which he claims has a sarcastic edit summary. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:15, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Clarify. There are so many examples of disruptive behaviour by User:Gaba p this took 5 minutes to compile. Per the previous WP:ANI thread usually tactic by User:Gaba p is to fling many accusations, combined with diffs, notably the diffs rarely support the accusation but gives the appearance of such to those that don't check. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:18, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I see you had this prepared, that's ok. I'll be adding some examples of your behavior next. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 16:14, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I encourage Gaba p not to bother posting dirt on WCM -- if they don't want their talk page comments they can simply stop discussing other editors. NE Ent 16:19, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

NE Ent I don't understand what you mean by "if they don't want their talk page comments they can simply stop discussing other editors". Regards. Gaba p (talk) 16:33, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I also encourage Gaba to stop trying to run Wee off of Misplaced Pages with his constant harassment from article to article which has now gone on well over a year. When I tried to warn Gaba, he and Langus made very inappropriate remarks to me which I could have reported but chose not to. Despite the remarks, I have briefly edited on these articles and have only had only brief remarks with Wee, always over Misplaced Pages matters. I find it unsavory that you Gaba would follow him everywhere to the exclusion of all other articles and harass him and then you and your alter ego make extremely unsavory remarks to anyone who sees it and tries to defend the Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith ethical standards of Misplaced Pages. For once and for all, please desist and resume good-faith editing again. I am sure with your education that you have more to offer Misplaced Pages than this. Mugginsx (talk) 16:45, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I notice editor Mugginsx has been following me around since september when she stopped by my talk page to make uncivil (and untrue) comments about me . She did it again a few weeks ago . I note that up to today I have never been involved in a discussion about content with Mugginsx, she simply shows up to defend Wee whenever needed and nothing else. I've requested her to stop following me around to no avail. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 17:03, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

An indefensible untruth. I have the diffs too. Mugginsx (talk) 17:07, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

What is that supposed to prove? Would you please stop disrupting the discussion? This is about Wee's unacceptable behaviour. You did the exact same thing in September to the extent that you got in a fight with another editor about some remarks you made about him. Could you please stop? Regards Gaba p (talk) 17:20, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

BTW if you examine the diffs presented by Mugginsx, they are neither uncivil nor untrue; which goes back to my comment of making accusations and presenting diffs, which don't back up the claim made (how many editors simply presume they do?). And as for the comment they have never touched on content see ] and Mugginsx's edits on Self-determination. Wee Curry Monster talk 17:56, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Uncivil: coming out of nowhere to accuse me of stalking and again recently

Untrue: accusation of being blocked due to sockpuppetry when the block was proven to be wrongly applied

I repeat: Mugginsx and I have to the best of my knowledge never discussed content on any article. Wee's link shows only Muggins commenting in the talk page, not me. I request any admin/editor reading this to please go and check the links for yourself and tell me if I'm lying about any of them. This is just an attempt by Wee to throw mud at me once again. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 18:08, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Presenting diffs without all the information again? See where User:JamesBWatson refused to unblock as he was convinced the original block for sock puppetry was well proven. User:Gaba p conveniently finds a diff that I know the personal details of the banned editor User:Alex79818 (I do but only because in harassing me in real life he accidentally revealed them). After providing this information in confidence to James, he cautiously unblocked User:Gaba p see only for a few days later to have to issue a warning for incivility . I note that in this diff that James considered there was still compelling evidence of sockpuppetry but sufficient doubt to give you the benefit of the doubt, User:Nick-D also considered there was evidence of sock puppetry but also gave the benefit of the doubt. There has been plenty of suspicion of sock puppetry and it was not mentioned as a personal attack. I remain convinced on the basis of the types of edits, the subject matter, quirks of grammar and spelling and the fact you're constantly hounding and attacking me in exactly the same way that User:Alex79818 did, that you are one and the same. On past performance it is likely there are other sleeper accounts. Wee Curry Monster talk 19:01, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

On accusations of sock puppetry: in early 2012 Wee accused me of being a suck puppet of blocked editor Alex79818. The life-time block quickly imposed on my account was lifted after I gave away my right to anonymity to one of the admins who checked I was not the same person (Wee knows this blocked user's real identity). Notwithstanding this, Wee has continued with his accusations. At the previous ANI he did the same accusation and I offered an admin to reveal my identity once again ("have Wee tell you the identity of Alex and I'll once again reveal my identity as a sign of good faith") . Admin User:Nick-D has said verbatim: "Given that my block of that editor was (probably rightly) lifted as being a case of mistaken identity once further evidence was provided to an uninvolved admin, I'm not well placed to intervene with the admin tools in relation to their editing". Who's selectively quoting Wee?

I will once again repeat my offer to reveal my identity to an admin here so then can check the identity of this user to see I am not that user. Please send me a private message and I will gladly do so. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 20:20, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Moving comments around is not allowed per Talk page guidelines , further Wee Curry Monster is moving them from a section he started, thus making him involved.  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  17:15, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes I agree, we also have WP:IAR and if his comments were about content and there wasn't an issue of paralysing discussion by filibustering, then I wouldn't have done so. I did think twice about it and was attempting to reduce disruption. As other editors have noted he has followed me from article to article frustrating any attempt at editing. Note I did not refactor his comment and btw it was in the same section just moved to a sub-section for personal attacks. Wee Curry Monster talk 17:40, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

First I'll note that I had no desire of entering this exchange of commentaries about another user behavior but was forced to do so after Wee commented on mine.

As per Beyond My Ken, I have restored Willdawg's messages on MMABot's talk page. Willdawg has raised no specific complaints other than I shouldn't be operating MMABot. I don't know how to respond to that kind of complain other than to say I have the support of a number of people in the MMA WikiProject to operate this bot and its tasks for v1 and v2 have been approved by the WP:BAG. I am open to suggestions or guidance in regards to this issue. I've been asking at ANI for two days now at this thread for guidance as to how to deal with Willdawg and I have been ignored. --TreyGeek (talk) 21:43, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

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