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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lawrence King (talk | contribs) at 03:33, 5 July 2013 (→Title change to "Pope Michael": oppose move, but keep page). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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H.H. Pope Michael was ordained and consecrated by a bishop with valid orders from the Duarte Costa lineage, and so the quote attributed by "John L. Allen Jr." is fatheaded and nonsensical, besides being incompetent as Allen is no authority at all.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.249.115.244 (talk) 08:20, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

It would be great if you could give His apostolic lineage, or a link, and the date of His consecration. Perhaps Mr Allen wrote before H.H. was ordained. The Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church does not recognize most ordinations of the Duarte Costa lineage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardson mcphillips (talk • contribs) 21:29, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

The information was provided on the page before it was butchered into its present caricature first by a miscreant than by Wikipedians who have locked this page. H.H. Pope Michael was ordained and consecrated by Robert Biarnessen who was consecrated by John Parnell. Whether the "Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church" recognizes or not the ordinations and consecrations of the Duarte Costa lineage is not relevant. 115.249.115.244 (talk) 12:54, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

'antipope'?

the article states that Mr Bawden is considered an antipope, but the definition of antipope at the (Misplaced Pages) link provided denies it: "An antipope ... is a person who makes a widely accepted claim to be the lawful pope, in opposition to the pope recognized by the Roman Catholic Church. In the past antipopes were typically those supported by a fairly significant faction of cardinals .... Persons who claim to be the pope but have few followers, such as the modern sedevacantist antipopes, are not generally counted as antipopes, and therefore are ignored for regnal numbering." I presume Mr Bawden does not consider himself to be an antipope. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 21:11, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

H.H. Pope Michael I is not an antipope anymore than Innocent II was one. 115.249.115.244 (talk) 12:54, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

In view of this, should David Bawden be listed as a 'modern sedevacantist antipope'? (ArnoldTrotter (talk) 07:08, 20 May 2012 (UTC))

Edit request on 15 June 2012

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Would like to update page as David Bawdens website now claims that he has been ordained and consecrated

Rkretowi (talk) 11:32, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

 Not done: requests for increases to the page protection level should be made at Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection. Mdann52 (talk) 16:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Title change to "Pope Michael"

It has been proposed in this section that David Bawden be renamed and moved to Pope Michael. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

David Bawden → Pope Michael – Please put your reason for moving here. Canon Law Junkie §§§ Talk 03:23, 3 July 2013 (UTC) should the title be "Pope Michael"? clearly this is his most popular name. i don't think many people know him as "David Bawden", and per Misplaced Pages:Article titles#Use commonly recognizable names. For example, on the page it says to use "Lady Gaga" and not "Stefani Germanotta". it seems to be the same situation here. David Bawden is notable because he claims to be pope with the name Michael. i think the article title should reflect the most common name, which is certainly not David Bawden. Canon Law Junkie §§§ Talk 09:06, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Difficult question. The comparison with Lady Gaga is not exact, because "Lady Gaga", "Mark Twain", "Elton John", "Marilyn Monroe", etc. are stage names. Nobody could say to Elton John, "You're not really Elton John!", because he is. On the other hand, the title "Pope Michael" (as you say) is a title that by its very nature includes a claim to an office that is not recognized by 99.999+% of the planet.

It would be different if he took the title "Pope" to signify that he was the leader of a church of twenty people, but he claims to be the rightful pope of a billion Catholics.

On the other hand, Misplaced Pages does list Joshua Abraham Norton, self-proclaimed "Emperor of the United States", under the title Emperor Norton. That's a very close analogy. And many, many people recognize the name "Emperor Norton", even if they can only identify it as referring to "that crazy guy from San Francisco".

So I would support a move of this page to Pope Michael if you can substantiate your claim that more people (or, if you prefer, more Americans, or if you prefer, more reliable non-Wiki sources) recognize the name "Pope Michael" than those who recognize the name "David Bawden". I myself am familiar with both names, but as you pointed out, we need to follow the WP:COMMONNAME policy, which says we should "use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources". — Lawrence King 15:48, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

The hour-long documentary produced by independent filmmakers uses the term "Pope Michael". This story by Sarah Henning also uses the term "Pope Michael" as its main term, although it does mention "David Bawden". What appears to be his personal facebook does use the name "David Bawden", but that's a primary source anyway. This website refers to him as "David Bawden, better known as Pope Michael I", but I'm not sure it's a reliable source. Most of the media coverage that came up on Google mentioned both names, but used "Pope Michael" as the primary story name. I could not find any reliable sources which used the term "David Bawden", and I have not found any conclusive data that says that more people/sources use "Pope Michael", but it does seem to be the case. Canon Law Junkie §§§ Talk 18:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Seems persuasive to me. If you like, we could wait a day or two to see if anyone else chimes in, but this does seem to justify an article that begins with the words Pope Michael.

There are, of course, two more questions to answer. First, should the page title refer to Pope Michael or Pope Michael I? Folks have debated this question in other settings, but my impression is that the common Western convention is to omit "I" until there's a "II". In the East, this rule might not apply. In the West, John Paul I was the only pope to use the number "I" during his own lifetime.

The second question is this: Currently, both Pope Michael and Pope Michael I are disambiguation pages, since there have been several Coptic Pope Michaels. If we were to actually give David Bawden the unadorned Pope Michael page, we would have to create a Pope Michael (disambiguation) page as well. However, in my opinion, Bawden's fame, although real, is primarily based on the fact that most Americans find him funny (as in your Eye-of-the-Tiber link), and so I don't think it's realistic to claim he's more notable than an actual Coptic Pope who reigned for 24 years in the 8th century. So what would you say to keeping the Pope Michael article as a disambiguoation page, and moving Bawden to, say, Pope Michael (David Bawden) or Pope Michael I (David Bawden) or Pope Michael (conclavist) or something like that? — Lawrence King 20:22, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

1. Good! But I do think we should wait a day, in the name of "consensus", for any last comments.

2. I think that the title should be "Pope Michael", not "Pope Michael I", since he is more commonly referred to as "Pope Michael" and the whole point of the namechange is to conform to the common name policy.

3. I agree that he is not, at least from a scholarly, religious, or historical point-of-view, more notable than the Coptic pope. However, as you mentioned, the Coptic pope reigned in the 700s, whereas the American conclavist is a contemporary figure. I think it's fair to say that he is more notable to the average person than the Coptic pope of the 700s (the Coptic gets about 7 pageviews per day, while the American gets about 60). Therefore, I actually do think that we should "bestow" the Pope Michael page upon David Bawden, and create a new Pope Michael (disambiguation) page. Canon Law Junkie §§§ Talk 21:11, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose per Misplaced Pages:Five pillars #1 & 2. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:56, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Pope is a very specific title that can not just be taken by anyone who wants to call themself pope. There have been others like this too, and there is no reason for an encyclopedia to pretend this. "elected by 6 people to be pope" "30 followers" Why do they even have an article? Apteva (talk) 05:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: Unless I get my own article titled "Dalek Supreme Dominus Vobisdu, Emperor of the Known Universe etc., etc." Can you imagine what the Napoleon disambig page would look like if we mentioned every silly claimant? Nor does it belong on the Pope Michael disambig page, or mentioned in parentheses. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 05:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: There is a big difference between recognizing him under the name Pope Michael "as-that-guy-who-claims-to-be-pope", and recognizing him "as-the-same-guy-whom-a-billion-Catholics-accept-as-their-pope". Ideally, "Pope Michael" should redirect to page "David Bawden" (though I too wonder why Bawden is notable enough for a page). But we've got six legitimate Coptic Popes of that name to disambiguate already, and there's just a cognitive dissonance in attaching Bawden's name to that list. Somehow, it's in the interest of WP to separate fantasy from reality, even when we report on both. While we're at it, I'd say it's a similar mistake to have that page "Emperor Norton", which instead should automatically redirect to page "Joshua Abraham Norton". That allows WP browsers the convenience of finding what they're looking for directly, but without WP's subscription to the fantasy. Evenssteven (talk) 08:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: David Bawden probably fails to meet the criteria for notability and inclusion in Misplaced Pages (See the first of the five pillars and WP:NOTABILITY). For the purposes of this discussion, assuming he were to qualify as notable, the appeal to WP:COMMONNAME is weak in that basically this lays down guidelines as to the most suitable version of an individual's name to use for an article title (e.g. Bill Clinton rather than William Clinton)or famous "stage name" as opposed to what is found on an artist's birth-certificate. However, "Pope Michael" is not a simple name but a title or style and in this case implies a claim which is recognised by a tiny handful of people. Objectively (see the second of the five pillars the individual who is the subject of the article is "David Bawden" and people searching for "Pope Michael" should be redirected to that page. This principle might complicate some disambiguation pages but neither of the two in question here should cause any difficulty. Jpacobb (talk) 03:41, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

From what everyone has said, it seems that the current disambiguation pages Pope Michael and Pope Michael I are probably acceptable to most of you? — Lawrence King 16:22, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I see no reason to not nominate both for deletion at WP:RfD as misleading. Apteva (talk) 03:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I would strongly oppose such a deletion. Pope Michael disambiguates seven different individuals, and regardless of what you feel about David Bawden, the other six individuals are indisputably notable. — Lawrence King 03:19, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose moving/renaming this page to "Pope Michael", but strong keep for the page under its current name. In my comments above I had tentatively supported the move/rename, but the arguments from the folks above have persuaded me otherwise. However, two of the voters above raised the possibility of deleting the David Bawden page entirely. In this case, I think a strong argument exists for keeping it. If Dominus Vobisdu were to give himself the awesome title he proposed, and then he was mentioned in academic books and national newspapers for twenty-three years (and counting), I most certainly would support him having an article on Misplaced Pages -- albeit under his real name. Of course, one can argue that press coverage alone doesn't prove notability, but Bawden is an example of conclavism, a very tiny movement within the quasi-Catholic world which nevertheless has theological and academic ramifications. Basically, it's the most extreme version of traditionalism -- more extreme than the Society of St. Pius X, sedeprivationism, and sedevacantism. — Lawrence King 03:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

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