Misplaced Pages talk:Four Award

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WT:FOUR

faq page Frequently asked questions

To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question.

Q1: What does WP:FOUR recognize and why? A1: FOUR recognizes the development of an article through four major editorial stages: 1.) A new creation, 2.) a developing article with at least one interesting encyclopedic fact (WP:DYK), 3.) a fairly thorough and high quality article (WP:WIAGA), 4.) complete article passing all quality standards (WP:WIAFA). Taking one brand-new article through all three of Misplaced Pages's major content milestones is a major achievement, and this award exists to recognize that effort and encourage others to do the same. Q2: What counts as a new article for the purpose of WP:FOUR? A2: Any article that would have been a redlink before you created it, or any article that was a redirect with no content history before you wrote it. Articles that are redlinks because they were deleted count so long as you created your version from scratch. If a redirect has content history that you did not create, it does not count. Q3: Are articles split from other articles eligible? A3: Generally yes, as long as you made significant editorial contributions in the process of shepherding it through the relevant DYK/GA/FA nominations. Q4: What about expansions from existing stubs? A4: Regardless of the quality of the stub, expanding an article does not count as creating a new article. You are improving an article that already exists – an achievement not to be downplayed, but not the purpose of the Four Award. Q5: If an article was featured as a bold link on WP:ITN or WP:OTD, rendering it ineligible for WP:DYK, can it still qualify for WP:FOUR? A5: No. ITN and OTD have different criteria and quality standards for their selections than DYK, so those processes are not considered substitutes for DYK the purpose of the Four Award. Q6: Are articles nominated for DYK after becoming GAs eligible? A6: Yes. The timing of the DYK does not matter. Q7: Why doesn't this award include articles that went through three of the four stages? A7: Because it's the Four Award. Its purpose is to recognize the effort involved for one person to bring one article from brand-new through all three of Misplaced Pages's major content milestones. Allowing only three stages to be recognized would be counter to the point. The WP:TRIPLECROWN recognizes when an editor has achieved several milestones on different articles, and may be of interest to users whose articles do not meet the FOUR criteria. Q8: Why don't we have a five award for WP:FAs that make the main page through WP:TFA, or become part of a WP:FT? A8: The Four Award recognizes advances in editorial quality. Being selected for TFA is one way an article is recognized for achieving FA status. Being included in a WP:FT is another. Neither TFA nor FT represents an advance in editorial quality past FA, so they are not considered as part of the Four Award process. Q9: Is it possible for collaborators to all receive WP:FOUR recognition? A9: Yes. In order for multiple editors to be awarded WP:FOUR recognition, there needs to evidence of collaboration throughout all of the processes. As WP:DYK, WP:GAN, and WP:FAC all allow co-nominations, the most challenging aspect is during the article creation stage. Evidence of collaboration can be provided for the creation stage in a number of ways. A common way would be multiple editors providing substantial content to a draft, which would then be moved into the article mainspace. The responsibility is on the nominators to provide the reviewer evidence of the collaboration throughout the entire article development process (evidence above and beyond just being a co-nominator would need to be provided). Q10: Are articles nominated for featured lists status eligible? A10: No. The featured list editorial process is different from the featured article process. FOUR is meant to recognize the article-development process, not the list-development process.

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We Can Do It!

Hello

Binksternet (3) "We Can Do It!" October 10, 2012 January 23, 2013

Creation date in 2012? PMG (talk) 16:19, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:46, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that! I didn't catch it myself. Binksternet (talk) 18:54, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

My bad, thanks! Little Mountain 5 23:15, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Lisbon Appointment

Cliftonian (talk · contribs) nominated Lisbon Appointment. This article never went through WP:GAN. It is not eligible.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:39, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, that's what I expected; thanks Tony. —Cliftonian (talk) 15:05, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Effect of Name Change

I am thinking to submit a GA for FA review. If it passes, I should be eligible for a Four Award. However, I've also thought about changing the title of the article. If the title is changed before the FA nomination, does that disqualify the article from Four Award criteria? Boneyard90 (talk) 20:32, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I shouldn't think so; as long as the article has passed the four milestones, page moves shouldn't take it out of consideration. GRAPPLE X 20:34, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Cool. Thank you. Boneyard90 (talk) 18:21, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Enquiry

Do articles that have been made from redirects count as new articles for the purpose of the Four Award? The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 13:27, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes and all (usually two) editors involved in its progression from a redlink to an encyclopedic article are eligible. (See the FAQs at the top of this page.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:16, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

"New article" symbol

Didn't see this answered in the archives: so why is the gray "neutral" icon used to symbolize a newly created article? How was it chosen? czar · · 02:15, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

The founder of the project TomasBat (talk · contribs), who is no longer involved, chose the symbol.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:31, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Starting point of a page started in userspace

I have come across a WP:FOUR article where the bulk of the creation was in userspace. What is the start date of the article in your opinion? I was thinking that we should do a history merge and use the very start of the development. However, a case could be made for the move date to article space.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:08, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I personally would use the date that the article was moved to mainspace (February 12), because that's what made it eligible for a DYK. It was just a userspace draft prior to then. (It looks like Black Kite (talk · contribs) already did a history merge, by the way.) Little Mountain 5 22:57, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

(Above Content copied from User talk:Little Mountain 5 edits)

If we do that then the start date is not the date the article had sufficient content to be encyclopedic, which is the point of conception of the article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:44, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

That interpretation is going to open the door for a whole bunch of articles that were not FOUR-eligible to backdoor into FOUR by creating in user space. See the latest nomination from Ian Rose (talk · contribs)--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:37, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Hmm... That's a very interesting case. I would say that the article is eligible, but it isn't clear which editor should receive credit for it. By your standard, Nick-D (talk · contribs) would receive credit, because he created the first encyclopedic content on April 6 (), albeit in his userspace. However, by my standard, Ian Rose would receive credit, because he moved it to mainspace on April 13. So, in my opinion, I would credit them both. It was a collaboration through and through. Also, it would still only count as one article in the FOUR article count, and since both editors have previous Four Awards, it wouldn't affect the FOUR editor count either. Thoughts? Little Mountain 5 16:10, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Tks LittleMountain. Yes, in case it wasn't clear, I think this is a situation where both editors deserve credit for the one article. Obviously only one editor can physically start an article in either user or main space, but in this case two editors said "let's create this article in collaboration" and then did it. Note that the very first discussion of this article by Nick and myself in the Summary section here predates the user space page creation by Nick, which itself predates the main space creation by me. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

It looks like we're going to run into the same start date issue once again with Alan McNicoll by Abraham, B.S. (talk · contribs), by the way. Little Mountain 5 16:23, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Should we just change this to the THREE award, where if you do the final three as a collaboration, however the article is created doesn't matter?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:28, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

No. What is your recommendation? Little Mountain 5 16:41, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

My suggestion is that when possible, we attempt to compile complete histories of the article (do history merges for aritcles moved from user space). Then we assess when the first edit was that resulted in the article being an encyclopdic topic. Then credit that editor and all non-vandal editors with earlier edits to that page with the creation stage. Then, evaluate the eligibility of the article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:55, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think either Nick or I would ever seek to water down or subvert the Four Award. If collaborations, even ones as clear (IMO of course!) as this are beyond Four's scope because only one person can physically create an article at a time, so be it, but I've given my reasons why I think this instance is a valid case for credit to two editors on the one article for its all-though development -- as with everything else in WP, I'm happy to abide by consensus. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

It is not actually true that only one person can create an article. Historically, I have tried to define the creation stage as the transition from a redlink to an article with encyclopedic content. The most obvious multiple stage transition would be creation of a redirect and then normal article creation. Above, in the FAQs, I attempted to show a much rarer case where the article is started with content that does not meet the threshold of being encyclopedic. I have not seen your history merge, so I don't know at what point your article became encyclopedic. Once an article has encyclopedic content all further edits are part of the DYK, GA and FA stages. Suppose a group of people decided they wanted to collaborate. The first person might want to go to the page and type ==External links==. The next person could type ==Notes== and the next could type ==Background==. The next could type ] The article would then be between the redlink and encyclopedic stage. Then once someone adds any encyclopedic content the creation stage is over. That is how I have attempted to define the creation stage. What is suddenly happening at FOUR is a few people have tried to blur the line on when an article is created so that a whole bunch of editorial contributions are melded into the creation. In truth, for each article, there is one edit in which the first encyclopedic content is added. Usually this is either the first edit or the first after a redirect. Let me see your history merge. P.S. we should only consider positive contributions toward encyclopedic content. A vandal who drops by and adds "BITE MY @$$" to an article would not be considered a contributor to the encyclopedic content.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I still disagree that userspace drafts should be counted as part of articles' histories, but I'll concede. On the other hand, your definition of creation collaboration seems reasonable. As for this specific case, the article and the draft haven't been history merged yet, but here's the full history of the draft. I guess the question is whether or not Nick-D's initial four edits qualify as reaching the encyclopedic stage. If so, only Nick-D can receive credit. If not, both Nick-D and Ian Rose can receive credit. Little Mountain 5 03:52, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Ian and I jointly drafted the article in my user space, and Ian then moved it into main space - it was a shared effort. From memory, Ian contributed at least 60% of the initial version of the article. Nick-D (talk) 10:01, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't contest your joint effort for the article. WP has a bunch of rules. I spent an hour this morning on issues related to WP:NFCC#8 and WP:NFCC#10c debate. I also spent time this morning addressing a WP:DYK rule related to redundant content. I don't know which rule it is, but I was up against it. WP:FOUR has eligibility rules. Unfortunately, FOUR eligibility rules are not rules that one can fix a violation of. this version of the article seems to have encyclopedic content. It even has a cited encyclopedic fact. Subsequent edits can not be deemed to be part of the creation stage.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 11:38, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I think y'all may as well state in black and white that there's no such thing as a joint effort as far as Four goes, because physically only one person can create the first encyclopedic content for an article in either user or main space, and it doesn't matter that in this case you've been presented with written evidence of the two editors involved planning an article before any content was created, and continuing to collaborate all the way to FA. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:54, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

That would be an even stricter rule that only the single first encyclopedic edit counts toward creation. However, that would be in conflict with all other stages. Generally, each edit is assigned to a stage. All edits prior to and including that which makes the article encyclopedic belong to the creation stage under the definition that is now in place.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 12:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm not sure what advantage is being gained from imposing that definition here and in equivalent cases. That edit of mine was a placeholder to record a factoid I'd come across in an obscure reference while googling the topic as part of a discussion on the potential of creating the article with Ian, and Ian made the first substantive contribution to the article's developed several days later in this edit. We then jointly edited the article in my user space before it was copied and pasted into article space when we both judged it ready - the article was jointly created and developed. From reading Misplaced Pages:Four Award#Collaborations it seems that the only way to have a joint article acknowledged within the scope of this award is for the editors to game the article creation process in a rather artificial way (which would actually make the article a candidate for speedy deletion in its first steps), which seems a pretty odd thing to encourage. Nick-D (talk) 12:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The advantage is having a clearly defined rule. As stated above "All edits prior to and including that which makes the article encyclopedic belong to the creation stage under the definition that is now in place." That is a clearly defined rule. I have never examined gaming the system, but admit planned unnatural editorial behavior would be the only way to get a collaborative credit.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 12:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

(od) You know, it really does seem to me that this can be resolved, and honest, ethical and logical collaborations between editors recognised here, by taking something from what both Tony and LittleMountain have said. LM, I understand, believes that articles start when they enter main space. This is logical to me -- how can an article be said to really 'be' in WP until this is so? Tony seems to be saying that the edits and editors before each milestone are what counts. If we take this as read, then in this case you have two editors working on an article in user space, and never mind who made the first edit in user space because that's not what counts. Another editor then moves the result of that collaboration into main space, and it doesn't matter who that editor was because what he moved in was a collaborative effort from user space. So why is it so hard to give two editors credit for the article creation, as well as the DYK, GA and FA? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:23, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

If you open the creation stage up to all editorial activity before page moves to article space, you open up the process to all kinds of piling on activity for creation. It should not be any easier to "create" an article in user space than it is in article space. By evaluating the merge history, we avoid making collaborating easier in userspace or sandboxes.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:12, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I do believe that articles start when they enter the mainspace, and I agree with Ian's proposal. Userspace drafts are drafts for a reason—their editors don't feel that they're ready to be presented to the general public yet. But as I said, if Tony wants to count them as part of articles' histories, then so be it. The problem with collaborations is that we're going to need a hard and fast rule concerning eligibility, but since collaborations come in so many shapes and sizes, it's hard to come up with one that isn't extremely strict.

My proposal is this: We should enforce a strict rule like Tony's for articles started in the mainspace. It does encourage gaming the system, but there's really no other way to go about it other than banning collaborations completely. But for userspace drafts, I think we should be a tad more permissive (if not quite as permissive as Ian's proposal). They aren't technically articles yet, after all. Maybe we could give creation credit to any major contributors within 24 hours of the draft's initial creation. Tony, it's ultimately up to you, but I think that this is the most practical way to go about it, because again, I think both Nick-D and Ian Rose deserve the award in this case. Sincerely, Little Mountain 5 17:24, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

What I don't understand is why up to first encyclopedic edit in the main space and up to 24 hours in the user/sandbox environs. Why not propose 24 hours in both cases? What we have is a case of two hard working contributors who did not meet the joint eligibility standard that we have traditionally upheld, with the loophole that they performed their contribution in a space which may need special rules. I just don't see why user/sandbox space needs special rules. Once the first encyclopedic element has been added to the article it has been created. The only thing that is arguable is what is an encyclopedic element, but we believe we know it when we see it. We can have that discussion. I would love to be FOUR eligible for my first GA and first FA, Campbell's Soup Cans. It was a great article and in many respects one of my proudest accomplishments on WP. However, I did not figure out what a DYK was for a couple of months after starting the article. By the time I got my first DYK Campbell's was a GA and FGAN already. I often look back and wish I could have that for a FOUR. The only way is for me to make it 5 times as large as it is now (not going to happen). I just can't have a FOUR for that article. I digress. The sklnny is that, while WP appreciates the contribution, it does not meet FOUR eligibility as a collaboration, IMO. I don't really have a future issue in mind to avoid regarding the 24 hour rule, but feel there will be some perversions to the process that I don't forsee. I still feel that any rule other than the first encyclopedic element makes user/sandbox space articles easier to achieve collaboration with. In the four year period ending June 30, 2013, that current FOUR articles account for 1 in 5.38 FAs promoted during that time. Almost 20% of all FAs promoted in the last 4 years are FOURs. We don't need to make eligibility any easier.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:53, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) WP:DYK uses the time articles drafted in user space are moved/posted into article space as the time such articles was formally "created". Given that a successful DYK nomination is one of the criterion for this award, it seems logical to also use the same convention in regards to the timing of article creation. Nick-D (talk) 22:59, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Nick-D: My sentiments exactly.

Tony: I was just trying to come up with a rule that's at least somewhat practical. This article is the epitome of a collaboration—we're not going to get anything better than it! If it doesn't qualify, then darn near nothing will. And if that's what you're going for, then I won't stand in your way any longer, but I think it's a shame. Little Mountain 5 21:32, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

I would bet that we have disqualified by our own evaluation or discouraged application by many collaborations of this sort. I don't think it is equitable to suddenly say that this is a collaboration. All FOURs are based on editorial activity on that article and its discussion pages. I don't think we should expand to a new type of eligibility that we have probably excluded others for in the past.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:33, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

(←) I was under the impression that Nick-D would receive the award, not Ian Rose. Nick-D created the first encyclopedic content (in userspace, which I thought we were counting). Little Mountain 5 02:04, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Well I've rejected the award, however well meant, in any case since I think it should be joint -- and if there's a chance Four has rejected collaborative noms in the past that meet the same standard, I'd be happy to go through the books and review them. Retrospective re-evaluation has taken place here before. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:12, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

- Thanks for following along. The FOUR page nom and the current version of the article belie the page creator. I should have noticed this from glancing at the talk page of origin, but did not. I'll clean this up.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
  - Thanks, but I've just rejected the award. Ian's contribution to the article's creation and development to FA level are at least equal to mine, and probably greater, and I'm not interested in recieving an award which implies that I played a more significant role and does not recognise Ian's huge contributions. I'd appreciate it if you could ammend WP:FOUR accordingly to remove this award. I'd strongly encourage you to revise the eligibility criteria here given that they're non-compliant with one of the steps of the award (DYK), and there's no sensible reason to not acknowledge collaborations. Nick-D (talk) 03:29, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
    - Seconded Nick above. There are many reasons I don't participate here. This is a big one of them. Ed 03:48, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
      - Tony, you seem to be in a minority of one at the moment. Despite acquiescing to your viewpoint, LittleMountain seems to believe -- as Nick and I do (and Ed now, by the look of it) – that this article is clearly a joint effort and that article creation is in main space, not user space (this is only logical – an article isn't eligible for DYK until it's in main space). I think you're missing a really simple and obvious way to standardise joint awards by recognising article space as the beginning of the article and any other editors before that point – in user space – as co-creators, as is the case here. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:54, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
        Hey Ian, you are correct. Also note that previous discussion on this same point is at Misplaced Pages talk:Four Award/Archive 2#Collaborations, in case you were interested. Good luck! Ed 06:22, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
        Ed: I had forgotton about that conversation—my stance on the issue has changed since then. We'll let you know if we make any headway.

Ian: Yes. I fear that I have muddled my opinion, so let me make it clear: I support crediting multiple users for articles that are obviously results of collaborations. I think that the only reason userspace drafts should even be considered here at FOUR is to determine whether or not a creation collaboration has taken place. Unfortunately, I don't know how we would handle articles that weren't started in userspace, like Ed's example, other than imposing a time rule like I suggested above. Let me know if you have any suggestions. I really hope that we can eventually work this out. Little Mountain 5 06:55, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

No worries, LM. At this point, I'll just be happy to have the articles I've written off, but I do thank you for your edits here! Ed 06:58, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Given that my request for the award I was offered to be removed hasn't been honoured yet, I've just done it myself. Please do not add it with the meaningless tag. Nick-D (talk) 07:58, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I woke up and was responding to many watchlisted issues. I saw your other edit before I saw this one. I added a placeholder tag as I will to all qualifying articles that editors wish not to be associated with for the purpose of FOUR.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 12:47, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Category:Misplaced Pages four award articles not showing up on article talk pages

Should Category:Misplaced Pages four award articles be showing up on article talk pages? Currently no category is showing on the talk pages.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 12:02, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

No; the category is a hidden category (because of the {{tracking category}} template in it), which means it doesn't show up on the pages it's in. At least, that's the current behavior; if someone thinks it should be difficult they're welcome to propose it. As far as I know, the purpose of the category is not to put an indication on the article talkpage, but just to keep a count of how many articles there are (and in that case it's not necessary for anything to appear on the talkpage). rʨanaɢ (talk) 12:22, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Removing name and articles from WP:FOUR

User:TonyTheTiger has twice reverted my attempt to remove my name and articles I have written from the WP:FOUR records page, which seems rather silly to me. Can we find a consensus here so that I can disassociate myself from this project? (pinging regular user here User:Little Mountain 5 as well) Thanks, Ed 05:35, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to remove your own name from our records, so long as we also remove the articles from the Four Award category. I'm sorry that you feel the need to do it, however. Little Mountain 5 05:47, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Nothing against you personally, Little Mountain! I'm just disappointed that the collaboration issue hasn't been dealt with years after I first raised it, and while I expressed this before through not nominating any of my other articles, I think it's time to remove the earlier ones. Thanks for the comment! Ed 05:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure if you noticed the second revert went to the placeholder omission used at places like Misplaced Pages:List of Wikipedians by number of edits/1–1000. Yes you can disassociate your name from our list, but you do not own the articles that have the unique quality of FOUR-awarded articles. Like that list, the place on the list is important to the list even if you do not want to be listed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:56, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I certainly noticed and appreciated the efforts at compromise, but I do not wish for my name or the articles I've written to remain here—a feeling I think most people here could sympathize with. Ed 06:04, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Do you WP:OWN the articles? You are free to request that your name be withheld. But a large part of the significance/interest of the listing is the sortable table which provides comparisons. If people willy nilly yank articles out of the list the comparisons become useless. That is why I used the standard placeholder method.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:06, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

It's records for an award, Tony, not a comprehensive list of every article that ever qualified for FOUR (although it seems to be filling that role as well). If Ed wants to decline his awards, then let him do so. The removal of four articles certainly won't make a list of 400 useless. Little Mountain 5 06:16, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

It actually is a list of every article ever qualified for a FOUR. What do you think I was doing when I went through every Featured article listed in 2011? It is a comprehensive list of all articles that have been through all 4 stages by a single editor. Once Ian Rose and Nick-D and every WP:MILHIST drinking buddy of theirs pulls their article then the list will be useless. It is currently comprehensive. It even includes editors who were never active in the period in which the award has been given. Look at the leaderboard. The number one person on the list has clearly never even nominated an article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:25, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

No need to use that tone regarding Ian, Nick and the MILHIST project. —Cliftonian (talk) 06:32, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Should I apologize? Is drinking buddy a derogatory term? The point is that MILHIST does not have to be allowed to run every project on WP. I don't need to get a message everytime one of you feels slighted by all the other bigwigs in the project. I don't think your guys should be making these kinds of messages here.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:41, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

First, thank you for (accurately) denigrating me as a "MILHIST drinking buddy"! I count many Milhisters as good wiki-friends of mine, despite my limited participation at the project in recent times. Still, I wouldn't be on this page if I didn't feel strongly about the topic, and I can assure you that there is no monolithic, single-minded Milhist editor-base being mobilized to disrupt the FOUR award. Ed 06:55, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Glad you understand I mean the term drinking buddy in the perverbial sense. If you truly feel denigrated over the use of the term, I do apologize.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:10, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm not surprised that you've brought up the frequently overused OWN policy; that's why I expressed my preference that "articles I've written" (not "my articles") be removed, and have brought it here for consensus, which I hope I'll find.

Also, Tony. This isn't an opt-out statistical list of Wikipedians by number of edits. This is an award page—one that doesn't have any explicit need to retain the articles if contributors change their mind. Ed 06:17, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

This is not something like WP:FA where an editor goes out and nominates his work for recognition. The vast majority (probably 80% if not 90% of these) were listed without any nomination. In a sense it is a statistical archive of every article meeting the qualities of FOUR.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:29, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

FYI, only when the bot is updating FAC slowly does a nomination occur. In general, I promote FOURs within hours of the bot updating. So this is just a statistical archive with the bonus of a Barnstarish recognition at the time of archiving.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:44, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

~~It's not a full listing, or I'd have two more articles listed here~~... Ed 06:55, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

If any article is missing there are three possible oversights: 1.) T:AH has not been updated to reflect all three of the DYK, GA and FA stages, in which case I might never be alerted to review it; 2.) I erred on review when I looked at the article and rejected something that I shouldn't have; 3.) I promoted something (by updating its talk page), but got distracted from listing it here. Did I tag the talk pages with four=no on the two that you think should be here. That would be type 2.). If I tagged it with four=yes and it is not listed here, it is type 3.). If its talk page is not tagged either way then it is type 1.)--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:05, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

No, my mistake—I had forgotten that I purposely skipped GAN for several FAs of mine. Ed 07:11, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

All this moaning about WP:OWN from Tony, while he carries on like he owns four awards and everything associated with them. ★★King∽~Retrolord★★ 08:14, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment: Erm, how about just giving a 4 Award to both Nick and Ian, and (hopefully) restoring Ed's faith in WP:FOUR and negating this issue. The current rules simply say "You must start/create a new article.", not "You must make the first edit in a new article" or "you must be the one to move an article from user space to main space" (this second one would be terrible, because any creation done individually could be claimed by another). When the article Lockheed C-130 Hercules in Australian service was "created" as defined by Wikimedia servers (i.e. when it reached main space), it had already been developed over 38 edits by Nick and Ian; thus, this creation was completed by two people (though really Ian, a hist-merge would have been nice), though the one who moved the new content to main space was not both of them. Both Nick and Ian remained diligent contributors over the next several weeks, seeing the article through DYK, GA, and FA together. They acted, essentially, as one throughout the project and should both get equal recognition. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:18, 23 July 2013 (UTC)