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This article was nominated for deletion on 18 October 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.
Removing Human Potential Movement entry
I removed Landmark Education from the list for the following reasons:
It is listed as a Human Potential Movement. Our article on the HPM is clear that these movements are not religious in nature or intent, rather that they are based in existentialism and humanism. Even this categorization of Landmark is dubious, as it is based on a citation for est which is not the same organization (according to the same source).
The reference to Psychiatry and Religion: Context, Consensus and Controversies again is referring to est. Although this reference notes that est is now known as "The Landmark Forum", there is no such organization and that claim is refuted by the other sources provided (particularly Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions).
The reference to Social Theory and Religion by James A. Beckford is not valid. That source does not contain the word "Landmark" at all.
Similarly, the Encyclopedia of American religions does not contain "Landmark" (in context) or "Forum" (in context) at all. The only references to these words is out of context (ie. "The landmark decision in..." or "... provided a forum for individuals to...").
Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions clearly states that Landmark Education Corporation (which other unlisted sources indicate is a predecessor to Landmark Education) was a new company, separate from est with different goals and methods.
Our article for Landmark Education provides a number of additional third-party sources which clearly state that it is not a religion nor is it a religious movement.
I have reviewed the sources from our article for Landmark Education, the ones contained in this article, and others that I could immediately find and was unable to find any reliable sources that stated Landmark Education is a religious movement or religion. There only appears to be a tenuous (at best) chain of association from prior to est to est to the former staff of est to Landmark.
This organization (it doesn't matter that it is a corporation, as many religious organizations are incorporated) appears in references dealing with NRMs, and so it is appropriate for inclusion on this list. That it does not claim to be "a religion" is irrelevant (it is not the only religious movement to do so). That an organization has gone through several iterations also is irrelevant, and it is obfuscating to challenge sources as being relevant to the organization in the title simply because of corporate name and structuring changes over the years. • Astynax20:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Agreed with User:Astynax's comments above in general, but in this instance that isn't the question. The references are referring to a separate entity (est) and est is not Landmark Education. This isn't about name changes or obfuscation; there are any number of reliable sources that clearly state that Landmark Education is not the same entity, is not run by the same people, has a different structure, offers different products, and has different goals.
That Landmark is referred to in the only reliable sources as a Human Potential Movement (or not as any "movement" at all) is the key point here. HPMs are by definition not religious movements (see here or here).
I will wait for any additional comments before removing again.
Regardless of the dictionary definitions, for the purposes of NRMs, they are classed together with other "Human Potential" and "Self Religion" philosophies/spiritualities. I have added a few other references in works on NRMs. Some references regard them as religious movements, some do not, and some place them somewhere in-between (as does Chryssides, who explains his reasoning in Exploring New Religions pp. 312-313: "Although I have argued that not all the group covered within this chapter actually count as religions, the examples I have studied are nonetheless useful, since these case studies have aroused much comment on the part of anti-cult critics. Moreover, they certainly all possess an important spiritual dimension, and provide useful studies for determining where the edges of religion lie."). You are welcome to do an RfC prior to deleting sourced material, but as the organization's iterations are covered in NRM literature, there is no reason it cannot be included in this list. • Astynax08:43, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
The case for Landmark as NRM seems extremely weak. The sources provided above by Astynax don't support the contention of Landmark as an NRM at all. Chryssides states explicitly that Landmark is "not religious", and as the quote above mentions, he merely found it 'useful to study'. Aubers only discusses the est training, while the Kemp piece is about groups that are 'new age', which explicitly includes human potential movements - he describes Landmark as a group for self-actualization, not one with religious traits. Meanwhile, it seems that every other member of this list is described explicitly as being a religion, and no other human potential movement groups are on this list, a strong sign that Landmark doesn't actually belong here. Add into this that there are numerous other reliable sources saying Landmark is not religious, and it seems fairly clear that it doesn't belong on this list. Nwlaw63 (talk) 13:41, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
You are free to draw your own conclusions of course, as you did above. However, we do follow in general the independent reliable sources, like Chryssides, in our content. If you believe that this subject doesn't deserve inclusion, I could certainly see having est listed, on the basis that it is listed in the relevant reference works. The question here is basically how one defines "new religious movement" in general - there really at this point is no generally accepted clearcut definition of the term. That being the case, basically, our best basis for determining what to do is to follow the lead of well regarded reference books, like Chryssides, on the topic, and include what they include. "Religion" might well be a bit of a misnomer for several groups here, but if they are called NRMs, a phrase which includes the word "religion," then they are NRMs. If one wanted to file an RfC on this topic, they certainly could, but I tend to think from prior experience that the conclusion drawn from such a discussion would be to follow the lead of the reference sources. I can and will start shortly in gathering together lists of topics included as separate articles in the various reference works relating to NRMs readily available to me into something similar to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Lutheranism/Encyclopedic content, and I tend to think that the editors here would generally agree that we can and generally should follow their leads regarding such matters. John Carter (talk) 16:13, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
I tend to agree with the assessment that words such as "religion" and "spirituality" are defined by various scholars in more restrictive ways than others. Some academic writers impose tests such as membership, regular congregational gatherings and/or expected adherence to a creed, and yet others refuse such limitations that would exclude many bona fide religious movements past and present (e.g., almost all of the mystery religions of late antiquity, which consisted of little more than a single, directed spiritual/relevatory experience or rite, and which could differ only superficially from many modern fests, seminars and conferences with spiritual, motivational and life-changing components and/or claims but little in the way of other formal structure or belief requirements). As John Carter said, in this sort of situation we follow the sources rather than synthesizing a Wiki position. I did not add this organization to the list, but on the basis that the organization in its various iterations is widely discussed in NRM literature, the mere fact that it is included by reliable sources makes it an appropriate entry. Moreover, this is a list, not an article. Anyone questioning the religious nature of an organization or movement may easily (and will likely) click over to the article where there is more information on the subject. • Astynax19:01, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
I think the reliable sourcing we have does NOT give weight to Landmark as an LRM at all. The sum total of evidence appears to be one book that puts it on a list (while at the same time explicitly stating that it's not a religion and really only on the list because the author is apparently intrigued by it). We have another source cited that's about the 'New Age' and isn't making any religious claims at all, and we have other reliable sources that explicitly state that it's not a religion or religious. Throw in the fact that no other human potential movement groups (or groups from something such as the list of Large Group Awareness Trainings) are on the list, I wonder why this is even up for debate. Nwlaw63 (talk) 13:05, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Although I would have to check the page history, I would think that there is a very real chance that, when this article was created, est was a redirect to Landmark, and that someone (either myself or someone else) fixed the link to more directly link to the extant article. I note that there has been a proposal to merge est into Landmark for about a year now, which leads me to think that perhaps there was no separate article at that time. I am listing the proposed merger on the Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Religion page now. For what its worth, the other groups might not be on the list because I remember someone editing out all those other groups which at the time didn't have separate articles yet, and on that basis believe that they may have in fact been included by me in the first draft, but edited out as redlinks thereafter. I am in the process of going though the lists at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Religion/New religious movements work group/Articles in print reference sources to include all the articles from the various reference sources I currently have easy access to, and the relative length those topics have in those reference works, and that might help a bit. John Carter (talk) 15:16, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
A look at the pages show that both the est and Landmark articles were created in 2002, years before this list existed. Nwlaw63 (talk) 13:48, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
A look at what Chryssides actually says about est in 'New Religous Movements' would seem to support the contention that est (and Landmark) should not be charactrised as religious, or appear in this list. "Those who have undergone est or The Forum do not belong to a community of followers, they are simply people who have received a particular type of training... there is no ritual, no festivals, no religous calendar to punctuate the year, and the principle life-cycle events of birth, marriage and death are not celebrated within the organisation... participants are free to follow their own religion, or to have none." DaveApter (talk) 09:43, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Which exactly describes some of the single-experience oriented religions of antiquity ("ritual" during an intitiation or teaching process is in the eye of the beholder). Chryssides is hardly the only NRM reference to include est/the Forum/Landmark/Erhard. Chryssides also acknowledges that academics and others classify it and other Human Potential Movements as examples of new religions (Chryssides, Exploring New Religions pp. 278–280, 312.) and gives this as the reason why he regularly includes it in his own various works, even if he personally has some reservations regarding according est and Landmark "full status as religious organizations" (ibid p. 314). There are certainly differing opinions among academics as to what constitutes a religious movement. Again, for the purposes of this list, it is enough that some scholars do indeed regard est/Landmark as a NRM. Readers can and will click over to the actual articles on each group, where NPoV information should be available regarding the reasonings behind both the religious classification and non-classification in the eyes of various academics. • Astynax18:11, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
The key issue is whether this page is intended to provide useful accurate information for readers of Misplaced Pages, or to perpetuate confusions and misconceptions. Although some of the sources discuss est (mostly in a tangential manner), and in some cases actually mention Landmark by name, they do not unequivocably state that either are religious in nature; rather the reverse. The numerous well-sourced endorsements of these training programs by ministers, bishops, rabbis and authorities of many religions clearly demonstrate their non-religious nature. According to The Financial Times, "Erhard’s influence extends far beyond the couple of million people who have done his courses: there is hardly a self-help book or a management training programme that does not borrow some of his principles." So should all of these management training programs and self-help courses also be listed as New Religious Movements? Surely some common sense is called for? DaveApter (talk) 17:08, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
If they are included as NRM in reliable sources, the answer is clearly "Yes, they should be listed as NRMs here and details given,in a manner that reflects the weight of sources, should be given within each organization's article." This is policy; not a option that we editors can disregard because we have a different take than some of the sources. • Astynax07:12, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
This is the whole point - I don't see that Landmark is unequivocably identified as a NRM in these sources. I have already quoted at length from Chryssides above, and this clearly indicates that the categorisation is marginal at best. Nwlaw63 has already refuted Kemp and Aubers as sources for the claim. Are there any others that are actually categorical? In an earlier discussion on this topic one editor suggested (presumably toungue-in-cheek) that the page should be titled 'List of organisations that have sometime been described as new religious movements'. Unless you are going to change to that name it is clear that readers of Misplaced Pages will expect that organisations listed here clearly and unambiguously fall into this category, not ones whose case for inclusion is virtually non-existent. Thank you for referring me to the WP:WEIGHT policy, with which I am already familiar, and I see nothing there which compels editors to override their discrimination and commonsense. May I ask to you declare whether or not you have a conflict of interest regarding this topic? Do you have any experience or strong personal opinion regarding est, or Erhard or Landmark which might colour your judgement in the matter? Thank you. DaveApter (talk) 09:53, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
