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Talk:Paul Ryan

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Former good article nomineePaul Ryan was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Paul Ryan article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
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Why no mention of the Debt Ceiling?

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/359818/paul-ryan-cr-fight-will-inevitably-roll-debt-ceiling-fight-jonathan-strong

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/15/paul-ryan-debt-ceiling_n_4449213.html?ir=Politics&utm_campaign=121613&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Alert-politics&utm_content=Title

Ryan keeps bringing up the issue over and over again. Why are we silencing him? Hcobb (talk) 15:53, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

And again the subject is reverted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Paul_Ryan&action=historysubmit&diff=586528268&oldid=586501605

Ryan keeps bringing the subject up in the context of the budget. Who are we to censor the congressman? Hcobb (talk) 19:44, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

What's the context for your statement? Concessions for what? When did he say it? CFredkin (talk) 20:11, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Added in a little more of the context, but he's said volumes on this subject over the years and it's never been allowed to be entered. So there is a lot more to add it. Hcobb (talk) 20:23, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

And once again you have silenced the man who said "Default is the unworkable solution." Hcobb (talk) 20:59, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Lead

The intro to this article currently contains a number of statements that I believe are not significant enough to warrant inclusion in the lead:

  1. Ryan was born and raised in Janesville, Wisconsin, and is a graduate of Miami University in Ohio. He worked as an aide to legislators Bob Kasten, Sam Brownback, and Jack Kemp, and as a speechwriter before winning election to the U.S. House in 1998.
  2. Ryan has developed budget plans that propose privatizing Medicare for those currently under the age of 55, funding Medicaid and the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program through block grants to the states, and other changes. Ryan introduced these proposals in his spending plan for the House Budget Committee in April 2011 and in an updated version in March 2012.
  3. On December 10, 2013, Ryan and Democratic Senator Patty Murray announced that they had negotiated a two-year, bipartisan budget, known as the Bipartisan Budget Act of 2013. Although the deal was controversial among conservatives in Congress, other Representatives said that Ryan's support for the bill was a major reason why they were considering the deal.

If you disagree, please explain their significance. Thanks. CFredkin (talk) 18:46, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


#1 sounds like normal main stuff for an article on a person Suggest keeping

#2 Is older, dead and superseded. Suggest leaving out.

#3 is gigantic, assuming that it passed. Suggest keeping.

North8000 (talk) 19:58, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

  1. 1 should go to life and ed. #2 goes under policies or history. #3 is not a done deal, but would be more or less expected of somebody who held his job. So trim the lead down to name, rank, and affiliation. Hcobb (talk) 20:11, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Leads should be "a summary of most important aspects". His "Path to Prosperity" budget plans are, along with his vice presidential candidacy, what he is best known for and should obviously be mentioned in the lead. As for the 2 sentences on his background, that's standard and I see no reason why that should be removed either. The Bipartisan Budget Act I'm not sure about. I'd suggest wait and see what happens with it. It may turn out to be very significant, or it might not. Tiller54 (talk) 22:18, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to remove 1 or 3. As I understand it, the lead section is a summary of the key details of what the rest of the article is about. Don't you think the four paragraphs as the exist effectively summarize Ryan? Early life, policies, vice presidential candidacy, potentially signature legislation? The last - the budget - is also extremely current, so a lot of people looking him up will be doing so because of that detail. Three years from now, maybe his budget deal won't be one of the most important things about him. Right now, it is. (Oh, the the budget passed the House, it will probably pass the Senate today or tomorrow). Thanks. HistoricMN44 (talk) 22:22, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the above replies. The lead is a summary of the entire article, not just the middle of the article. The first 28 years of someone's life are obviously significant in a biography. —Designate (talk) 23:27, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

I've edited the article to reflect what appears to be the consensus above: Leave #1 and #3, remove #2. I've also edited #3 to make the significance more apparent. CFredkin (talk) 00:42, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

It appears that Tiller54 is the only editor advocating keeping paragraph #2 in the intro. CFredkin (talk) 19:18, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, IMHO it is older, dead and superseded and better left out. North8000 (talk) 20:03, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
No, I'm not. Did you read what HistoricMN44 and Designate wrote? Tiller54 (talk) 14:46, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I believe HistoricMN44 indicated that he thought 1 & 3 should stay in, which implies that 2 can go. That would mean 4 editors agreed that 2 could be removed, while 1 (Tiller54) wanted it to stay. Designate agreed with the previous posts, which would presumably support the consensus. CFredkin (talk) 17:53, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Again, did you actually read what they said? "the lead section is a summary of the key details of what the rest of the article is about. Don't you think the four paragraphs as the exist effectively summarize Ryan? Early life, policies, vice presidential candidacy, potentially signature legislation?" does not "imply that 2 can go" and how does "The lead is a summary of the entire article, not just the middle of the article. The first 28 years of someone's life are obviously significant in a biography" mean that he supports removing three-quarters of the lead? Tiller54 (talk) 23:42, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
There are thirty or forty areas / items in the article that could be selected for the lead. And only a few actually get into the lead. IMO there is no reason to select an old, dead, superseded proposal for the tiny fraction that gets into the lead. And Tiller, you are the only one who said "keep it in the lead". Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:56, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
And how many of those areas/items are significant pieces of legislation? His budget plans clearly meet the criteria set down by WP:LEAD. You constantly refer to them as "old, dead and superseded" but the single largest section in the article is the one dealing with his budget proposals. They are, along with his vice presidential candidacy, what he is best known for, and the proposals he made in the plans were a key issue of the 2012 election. Tiller54 (talk) 01:38, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
Tiller54, you are clearly in the minority here, perhaps a minority of one. CFredkin (talk) 18:00, 24 December 2013 (UTC) The budget referenced in the paragraph in dispute did not pass Congress and become law. The remaining paragraphs in the lead do describe the notable points in his life. CFredkin (talk) 18:14, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
Are you refusing to read what other users have written or are you just ignoring them? As for his Path to Prosperity plan, no, it didn't become law. That doesn't make it any less significant or notable. Like I said, along with his vice presidential candidacy, his budget plans are what he is best known for and easily meets the criteria in WP:LEAD. Tiller54 (talk) 22:06, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
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