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Hello, welcome to my talk page. To leave a new message, click here. Please try to keep it relatively organized by signing your posts, posting new topics on the bottom of the page, making relevant headings about your topic and using subheadings, not new headings, for replies. I will almost always reply on this page to messages. I reserve the right to make minor changes of formatting (headings, bolding, etc.) but not content in order to preserve the readablilty of this page. I will delete without comment rude and/or insulting comments, trolling, threats, comments from people with a history of insults and incivility, and comments posted to the top of this page. Also, I'm much more informal than this disclaimer implies. Thank you.

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→Σσς. (Sigma) 07:58, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK nom: Klas August Linderfelt

Hello! Your submission of Klas August Linderfelt at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! --CeeGee 07:32, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 07:55, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
	The work you have done on famous librarians is a huge contribution to the discipline and will be a resource of great meaning over time. Kmccook (talk) 13:49, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! Gamaliel (talk) 17:57, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Talk:The Simpsons

There is currently a RFC discussion about the content with the sources that the user AmericanDad86 has been adding, and you have been requested to make a comment about this, since you have responded to this discussion that had happened recently. Blurred Lines 15:03, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages Library's Books and Bytes newsletter (#2)

Welcome to the second issue of The Misplaced Pages Library's Books & Bytes newsletter! Read on for updates about what is going on at the intersection of Misplaced Pages and the library world.

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Adlai Stevenson II

I reverted your recent move as a violation of the "rough" consensus, determined in the talk page. I advise you to create a move request before moving it again. --George Ho (talk) 21:45, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK nomination for Eugene S. Matthews

Hello! Your submission of Eugene S. Matthews at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! -Kieran (talk) 05:39, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Ruby

Seriously, you can't just keep removing something ultimately sourced to video testimony from a witness, given to a UK mainstream TV channel (one of only 4 at the time...) and broadcast repeatedly between 1988 and 2003 without anyone complaining. (And the 2003 issues are unrelated.) Podiaebba (talk) 16:06, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

It is an unreliable source. Gamaliel (talk) 16:11, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Were the topic of the witness testimony the price of tea in China, you would get your ass handed to you on a plate at RSN for such a ludicrous claim. Were the testimony supportive of the official view, I somehow think you wouldn't complain about the sourcing. As it is, let's see what happens at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Reliability_of_Central_Independent_Television. Podiaebba (talk) 17:39, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I imagine the resulting discussion will be enjoyable and pleasant. Gamaliel (talk) 17:43, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

JFK conspiracy theories

It seems like this is an issue that's really spreading out of control, it's touched upon a few of my editing areas too. Any suggestions on how to handle it? Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:10, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

This issue has always been out of control. I've been taking a machete to JFK conspiracy theories for as long as I've been on Misplaced Pages, which is coming up on a decade soon. It grows back almost as quickly as you can hack at it. All you can do is keep hacking, unfortunately. Gamaliel (talk) 18:13, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

All you can do is keep hacking - with all due respect, and bearing in mind the garbage that is out there and how hysterically some push it, that doesn't exactly sound like you're prioritising the following of WP policy in order to document facts regardless of what version(s) they support. Personally, despite our current tangle, I don't think there's any particular version that's proven beyond reasonable doubt, and I'm happy to use WP as a tool to shed light on the whole complex morass. Example: Bill Hunter (journalist) - a brief article which manages with good sources (and without excessively harping on claim and counter-claim) to suggest that the death is unlikely to be suspicious, as some allege. Podiaebba (talk) 21:13, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I view it as prioritizing reliable sources and mainstream viewpoints. When you say you are against conspiracy theories (or pseudoscience or climate change denialism or creationism) in the context of Misplaced Pages the response has often been that this sort of stance is a violation of NPOV or some other policy. But it is consistent with Misplaced Pages policy because policy itself prohibits presenting these sorts of things in the way some advocates would prefer they be presented. Gamaliel (talk) 21:23, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're actually saying. I also don't see the point in being "against conspiracy theories" as if it was like being against astrology. Conspiracies happen all the time (cf organised crime) and governments carry out covert activities all the time (cf Snowden or the CIA's admission of sponsoring the 1953 Iran coup, or the various attempts to assassinate Castro). Once upon a time it was "conspiracy theory" that the CIA worked with the Mafia to try to assassinate Castro; now it's proven. Seeing conspiracy everywhere is liable to make you hopelessly confused, paranoid, defeated and a bit nuts; seeing them nowhere is just not paying enough attention. Unfortunately, humans are not really wired to be neutral and open-minded; we have confirmation bias. So we mostly end up picking authorities that seem credible, and then working additional information to fit what we think. And the internet exacerbates that by making it much easier to get groupthink where a choir is just preaching to itself... that's why I think Misplaced Pages should do more to document these, as far as possible, because although the arguments over sourcing etc may be a pain, it's better to have them than a self-congratulatory echo chamber. Podiaebba (talk) 22:25, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

For the sake of brevity we say "conspiracy theory" when we mean something like "it's clear the weight of the evidence in this case makes the idea of conspiracy a fringe viewpoint" or to refer to only the fringiest of theories like 911 truther theories and not all potential scenarios involving a literal conspiracy. Obviously some actual conspiracies have existed, but as someone once quipped, we don't call those conspiracy theories, we call that history. I do think that Misplaced Pages should document conspiracy theories as a phenomenon, but they should not be presented alongside real, factual evidence from mainstream sources, as per WP:FRINGE. Gamaliel (talk) 04:53, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, but that short-hand is misleading and dismissive, and the very term is generally used as a substitute for explaining why a particular theory of conspiratorial activity is implausible, badly evidenced, or provably wrong. Also, the general dismissive attitude to "conspiracy theories" easily becomes a dismissive attitude to any specific piece of historical evidence that happens to support one, instead of treating it on its own terms. This is unscientific at best, especially for cases (like the current issue of the Ruby phone call) where the evidence doesn't require any conspiracy to exist if it's true. Podiaebba (talk) 16:38, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

You have to understand this from our perspective just as you want me to understand this from ours. Many of us have been dealing with these articles for a very long time, and in that time we have been subject to a constant barrage of often very rude conspiracy theorists who demand that we accept their pet theory, and if we don't, we're shills or sheep who can't handle the Truth, etc. So we have no interest in having this long discussion with every argumentative theorist that comes along, but we are willing to discuss this with editors who are willing to be mostly reasonable about it. In regards to the evidence, we are obligated to consider reasonably sourced evidence, and I feel like we've done exactly that. Are we dismissive of the evidence you've presented? Yes, but after we've examined the evidence and your sources, and that fulfills our obligation to the encyclopedia. Gamaliel (talk) 19:04, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Eugene S. Matthews

On 7 December 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Eugene S. Matthews, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Florida politician Eugene S. Matthews sold his newspaper and fled Dunnellon after phosphate mine owners threatened him for reporting on their mistreatment of lease convicts? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Eugene S. Matthews. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:33, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Need well-referenced birth info for Leigh-Allyn Baker

I understand you have access to some published info that is not available on the net for this type of info. General web sources that are not reliable including IMDb state Leigh-Allyn Baker's birthdate is April 3, 1972, and that is likely correct, but I can't find a reliable source to support that. I would appreciate any help you can provide. Geraldo Perez (talk) 15:08, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Most of the time I can find a celebrity birthdate in the Gale Biography in Context database, but unfortunately this person isn't included there. Gamaliel (talk) 18:55, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

OK then, thanks for checking. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:03, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

User:Gamaliel/Gale

Hey, the above userspace hasn't touched since 2005. Per WP:NOTWEBHOST it should probably go. Any strong feelings about it? Beerest 2 talk 19:12, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I've long forgotten about it. How did you even find it? Gamaliel (talk) 00:53, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages Library Survey

As a subscriber to one of The Misplaced Pages Library's programs, we'd like to hear your thoughts about future donations and project activities in this brief survey. Thanks and cheers, Ocaasi 15:59, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 05:34, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Not this year, but don't stop trying

The results show you missed by a small amount: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2013#Results. I wish to tell you I voted for you and I hope you run again. Best wishes! Binksternet (talk) 01:44, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I appreciate it. Gamaliel (talk) 04:56, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Klas August Linderfelt

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Klas August Linderfelt you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Taylor Trescott -- Taylor Trescott (talk) 03:32, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Klas August Linderfelt

On 16 December 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Klas August Linderfelt, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Klas August Linderfelt was erased from the official list of American Library Association Presidents following his arrest for embezzlement? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Klas August Linderfelt. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 15:17, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Lucky you

I drew your name from a hat—well, not really, that's a lie. The truth is I thought of you directly after I noticed today that there were no comments from an uninvolved person at this COIN discussion. I would hate for the discussion to be archived without having somebody in authority say something pithy. The case has COI and BLP aspects. If you get a chance, can you chime in? Thanks in advance. Binksternet (talk) 21:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Ruth Paine

So even naming Ruth's father (William) is too much for you? Why not delete the mentions of her mother for a lack of a citation as well? There are numerous "facts" noted in the article that have never made it beyond official allegations. Should those also be removed, or do they serve an important propagandistic function? What are you, a social media spook? Finding a citation for her father is easy work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.39.147.59 (talk) 22:01, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I did not delete mention of her mother. Gamaliel (talk) 22:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Oswald and DLI

Russell? Please cite your source.

Oswald may or may not have studied at DLI, I didn't say he did. Read more closely. That it has been been investigated, including by the Warren Commission, is an important point. The sources are all good. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.39.147.59 (talk) 23:01, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I used your own source: http://books.google.com/books?id=GDKvanJwbDsC. Gamaliel (talk) 23:04, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Klas August Linderfelt

The article Klas August Linderfelt you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold . The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needed to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass, otherwise it will fail. See Talk:Klas August Linderfelt for things which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Taylor Trescott -- Taylor Trescott (talk) 01:12, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 07:47, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Media Matters

I see no neutral point of view on Media Matters. It is all bias. That is why I put a fair and balanced addition to the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheplola (talk • contribs) 05:34, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Media Matters Edits

I am sick and tired of you undoing my edits on Media Matters. I am citing my edits and it is not copyrighted. How can the truth be told about anything on Misplaced Pages if people keep editing very thing out that other people put in? Seems like to me that every snot nose liberal who lives in their moms basement runs this web site. A person can not rely on Misplaced Pages as being truthful. I guess that is why my professors in college said that anything cited from Misplaced Pages would be accepted. Hope you like my new edit. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheplola (talk • contribs) 07:10, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK nomination of The Entry

Hello! Your submission of The Entry at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! — Maile (talk) 21:53, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Blocked User

Hi, Because the user Bullšhit is the key also did vandalism, please reblock with account creation disallowed. Thanks! Thewikiguru1 (talk) 00:53, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Looks like somebody beat me to it. Gamaliel (talk) 03:05, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

user:Mouh2jijel on Languages of Morocco

Hello,

As you intervened on his talk page before, could you please explain to user:Mouh2jijel what is WP:DISCUSS? I invited him by 3 times to discuss the map issue without any response from his side, and today he simply reverted my edit (again), and again without giving any axplaination on diff's commentary? Isn't that case a user who simply refuses to WP:DISCUSS and to seek for a WP:CONS, then a WP:DISRUPT case? Thanks in advance.

Regards,
--Omar-toons (talk) 10:48, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

If user:Mouh2jijel continues to revert without discussion, I will take action. But there's no hurry, I want to give him a chance to respond. In the meantime, feel free to revert him as long as you do not violate the 3RR. Gamaliel (talk) 17:19, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Because you

Please use the page Talk:Languages of Morocco to discuss this edit. Thank you. Gamaliel (talk) 17:25, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry

I guess that was unnecessary. Chain pullers are going to pull chains. Not much you can do.Two kinds of pork (talk) 18:35, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

That apology was no apology. Instead, you personally attacked me as a "chain puller". Fact is, you're part of a gang of editors fighting tooth and nail to keep strongly-sourced material out of the article, and your repeated personal attacks against me are just part of your technique. It's so obvious that it's hard not to laugh. MilesMoney (talk) 18:39, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

My apology was to Gamaliel, not to you. I had never heard of Geller until this issue was raised on the BLP board. I've no interest her positions. I do however care about BLP being followed. If the material you seek to add is strongly-sourced as you claim it is, then it should be a trivial matter to get others to form a consensus.Two kinds of pork (talk) 19:03, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

It should be, except that you're dragging your feet to resist these sources. MilesMoney (talk) 19:06, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

For the last time, go to RSN. That's what it's there for.Two kinds of pork (talk) 19:32, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

No, it's already at BLPN. MilesMoney (talk) 21:46, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Retract your proposal against me immediately

I really don't appreciate you proposing on a public noticeboard that I be given a 1 RR restriction on an article where I did a BLP enforcement and I have only ever made ONE edit and the second article I have made ZERO edits...and you don't even have the courtesy to notify me directly, and you label me as an edit warrior with the rest of them...retract it now.--MONGO 03:45, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

If you feel like I've made a mistake you can ask me in a civil matter to reconsider the issue. It's laughable that my modest proposal would inspire such chest-beating, and if there's going to be any retracting, let's start with your accusation a few days ago that I was an "involved admin" for posting one comment to an RFC. So, try again. Gamaliel (talk) 04:10, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Imposing the same sanctions on editors enforcing BLP as those violating it isn't a "modest proposal". It's idiocy that subverts WMF mandates as well as en-wiki policy. When you see a bundle of experienced editors responding with anger, you should be sensible enough to recognize the possibility that you've done something really, really stupid and offensive. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 04:53, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

What I see here is two hotheads overreacting, joined on ANI by a third guy who has been using Misplaced Pages as a political battleground for years. 1RR is pretty harmless since editors shouldn't be revert warring anyway, and any genuine BLP enforcement would have been covered by WP:NOT3RR. Gamaliel (talk) 04:57, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

That's it...its about REVENGE! You propose on a public noticeboard that I be put on a 1RR restriction for one BLP enforcement revert on an article I have only ever made that one edit to. You propose I also be put on 1RR for an article I have never made any edits to!? You fail to inform me that you are proposing these sanctions on a public noticeboard...you label me as an edit warrior in your section heading...you want ME to be civil? Trust me...under the circumstances I am being civil...its your proposal that's not civil, so retract it and then we can discuss the other issue.--MONGO 04:40, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Revenge? Are you nuts? You either fail reading comprehension or you are more paranoid than Arzel. I couldn't give a shit about your ridiculous and inappropriate comment on ANI, I shrugged it off and forgot about it until you charged in here punching horses, then I remembered it because of your hypocrisy and the disparity in our reactions. I just threw together a list of everybody who was reverting. The idea that it's some kind of enemies list is literally insane. While I should have realized that what I thought was a harmless and minor proposal might slight the feelings of those listed, I also didn't anticipate the hysterical overreaction or the idea that some people would think I was trying to turn this into my own personal Night of the Long Knives. Give me some fucking credit here, if I wanted revenge, you think I'd do it with a 1RR restriction?Gamaliel (talk) 04:44, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Above you want me to retract a comment about how you may have been involved in a block you did...right? You bring this up in the midst of this discussion...its an unrelated matter to this discussion, but you're asking me to retract that as if that will help you retract your moronic proposal that I be put on a 1RR restriction for one edit made to make an article BLP compliant? You insult the editors there at AN/I that also are insulted by your proposal, saying they are having a "hysterical reaction" and that they are "approaching this article with a battleground mentality"...you've been an admin here a really long time...maybe its time you put yourself up for a new Rfa and see if the community still trusts you. The events of this past week on your part make it harder than ever to do so, least that's true for me. Your callousness is not going unobserved....and I'm not impressed with your line in the sand either. You made a stupid block and now a stupid proposal...be an adult and admit it.--MONGO 05:06, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

The proposal was a well-intentioned bad idea that I've already withdrawn. No need to strike moronic, perhaps it was moronic, lord knows I've had plenty of moronic ideas before. I stand by that block. There is no "line in the sand"; I only pointed out your comment of last week regarding that block to point out your hypocrisy. If you think one block and one withdrawn proposal make me unfit to be an administrator, you are already aware of the steps you need to take if you seriously believe that and aren't just looking for ways to attack me because I hurt your feelings. If you have something constructive to discuss, I'm willing to discuss it, let's do so, but please, "be an adult" and dispense with your sinister hintings and loud chestbeating. Gamaliel (talk) 05:18, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

We've both been here a nearly a decade, and as far as I know, these two events are about the only encounters we have had that might be construed as negative. I'll be more cautious about what I might post at a noticeboard if you will extend me the same courtesy. If you feel the same about it, then surely achive this matter.--MONGO 05:35, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I should restate my point in less combative terms: I made what I thought was a reasonable comment on ANI about a number of editors without realizing the full implications of my words or the possibility that others might take offense at what I considered an innocuous suggestion. I was not trying to label any editor an "edit warrior", though I think some of those others listed clearly are. I was trying to point out to you that you've done the same thing. I can't speak to your motivations, but I'm assuming your comment was well-intentioned and that you didn't realize that you were essentially accusing me of a serious policy violation. Since we're both reasonable folks when we're not pissed off we should endeavor to fully think through the implications of our noticeboard statements regarding other editors. I know we have a difference of opinion regarding that block, but if you seriously think that I've acted inappropriately in as an administrator regarding that block or anything else, I'd sincerely like to hear your civil thoughts on the matter in public or private. Other perspectives are always useful, regardless of whether or not you agree with them. Gamaliel (talk) 05:49, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

If we're going to be adults who admit things we did wrong, you could start by admitting that your edit was not BLP related. Everything you removed was directly about Rasmussen and sourced reliably. You just didn't want it there, so you wrapped yourself in the BLP flag of virtue and edit-warred to whitewash the article. BLP is one of our most sensitive policies, so it's despicable when it's abused to justify POV-pushing. MilesMoney (talk) 05:10, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

BLP is about do no harm...you seem to relish doing the opposite. That article seems to be protected now, on what you might feel is the wrong version. It's up to you to convince others that what you say is right and should be in the article. My adage with all BLP's is that anything negative should be treated with extreme dubiousness and if included needs to be sourced impeccably.--MONGO 05:25, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome

"Thank you for your comment, and not just because it is the most sensible reaction in a sea of hysteria." Moi? "Sea of hysteria"? Malstrøm is probably a better term. In any event, your comment has brightened my day. Thank you. – S. Rich (talk) 04:53, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

No, thank you. Lumping good editors in with bad editors is always a bad idea, so thank you for helping me see that. Though the problem is, as always, is that all the editors involved are utterly convinced that they are the good editor and that they are going to make the bad editor see that even if they have to beat the shit out of them. Okay, that was a little hyperbole, but you get the idea. I realize that we disagree that MM is the key problem here, but that aside, what are you thoughts about what to do about this situation. Gamaliel (talk) 04:59, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi Gamaliel: I'm one of the editors you listed, without informing, in your now-closed proposal for sanctions. I didn't get a chance to comment before you retracted your proposal. I'm confused as to why I was included on your list. Did you have a specific complaint about my editing? I've been active on the relevant talk pages, and leading an effort to try to find consensus. I don't believe one could construe my reversions as anything other than an attempt to both address BLP concerns and reflect talk page consensus. I don't think it's fair to list me in a proposed sanction without any explanation, and without notifying me. As for your comment above about "all editors involved are utterly convinced that they are the good editor..." that again, although intentionally hyperbolic on your part, strikes me as an offensive swipe at my editing, since you've apparently lumped me in with a group of other editors without examining my particular edits. If you have a problem with my edits, I welcome constructive feedback, but please do not lump me in with other editors without explanation. Thanks. Safehaven86 (talk) 06:00, 27 December 2013 (UTC)