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Cold Y Generation was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 04 September 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Millennials. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
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Page Name --- "Gen Y" or "Millennials"?

I see that User:Media67 has been slowly changing the terminology used in the article. Although the article is presently called "Generation Y", it now uses "Millennials" throughout the body. I don't think that is ideal... We should settle on a title and stick to it, either Generation Y or Millennial. Last time I checked both expressions are still in wide usage in the media and no consensus about the name had yet been established. If someone wants to present the case for "Millennials" please do so. Otherwise we should use "Generation Y" throughout the article. Peregrine981 (talk) 22:31, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

What title do you propose to settle on? Here's prior discussion (below) from other editors on the same subject:
"Millennials speaks more to the group and the era in which we grew up. Like other generational titles, it's a unique name. Gen Y implies a lot of similarities with Gen X, which there isn't really.
Finally, most articles in recent papers and magazines use Millennials these days.
I couldn't agree more. The "Generation Y" usage is dated. "Millennials" (or "Millennial Generation") is the standard in the media and among demographers now.220.255.20.13 (talk) 20:16, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Media67 (talk) 18:53, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

As usual, it isn't really "up to us" what it should be called. Rather we should represent fairly what it is called in RS. I personally don't think that it is yet clear that "Millennials" has replaced "Generation Y" in popular usage. See for example: , , , , . Those are all very recent articles in the popular press. There are hundreds more like them. Considering the policy on article title changes : WP:TITLECHANGES it says "if an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed." So my instinct is to not change it at this time. However, as I said I'm open to being convinced. Millennials is clearly a very popular alternative name, and if it could somehow be demonstrated that it is more accepted by sources of higher quality, then I would certainly be open to it. I think we should be quite careful however, to reflect actual reality, and not our views of reality, especially considering wikipedia's undoubted influence. Peregrine981 (talk) 19:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
That's pretty funny. Every example you've chosen (above) as proof of widespread use of "Gen Y" also uses the term "Millennials" in the text of the article (except for the auto news blog -- which isn't a great source anyway). This is probably common --- the interchangeability of the two terms in current news articles. So they might say "Gen Y' in the title but use Millennials in the text. The reverse probably is less true.
-- "See for example: , , , , .

Media67 (talk) 19:29, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, it proves that Generation Y is still widely used, even if people don't distinguish it much from Millennials. I'm not really trying to prove that Generation Y is overwhelmingly preferred. Just that it is still in wide current usage. The above is not meant to be a scientific study of any kind, just the first links I found on google. Peregrine981 (talk) 19:33, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
You will most likely find that when Gen Y is used in the title of the news article then "Millennials" will also be used in the text. BUT the reverse will not happen that much.Media67 (talk) 19:36, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Maybe. But that's speculation. What might be more relevant would be peer reviewed journals and high quality books. If a clear majority of them, internationally, are using one or the other, that would be sufficient for me to accept the title. Obviously we can't do a scientific study, but if we could somehow find fairly broad information about that, it would satisfy me... Peregrine981 (talk) 19:44, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Its an interesting question for sure. One correction about the Huffington Post article. It doesn't use "Millennials" in the text -- but the overall site (on that same page) uses the "tag" "Millennial" to idetifty other articles about them.Media67 (talk) 19:49, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
As lovely as this duscussion was, how do we proceed from here? Right now the article name is at odds with the terminology used in the article. Unless someone presents a plausible case that Millennials has become the new standard, we should switch back to generation Y. Peregrine981 (talk) 08:29, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
The article starts with "Generation Y, also known as the Millennial Generation". So its okay to use both terms, Gen Y or Millennials, throughout the article.Media67 (talk) 18:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't really agree. Simply from a stylistic point of view I think it is best to stick to one or the other. But on the other hand, I don't want to spend any energy on this, so don't worry about it. Peregrine981 (talk) 14:18, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
That's why I agree with the other editors on this page about the preferred name (above quotes).Media67 (talk) 15:43, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Which other editors? Are you talking about a name change, or making the usage consistent? I've already said I'm not against a name change, but only if it can be demonstrated that it is clearly the majority name and not just personal conjecture. Peregrine981 (talk) 09:09, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
The other editors offering their opinion about the page name change to Millennials (above) -- although I dont know if they edited the Gen Y/Millennial page or not. What criteria is used to determine "the majority name" of this page in your opinion?Media67 (talk) 23:08, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
We discussed above what the criteria would be. Some sort of relatively reliable quantitative survey of real reliable sources recently published. Clearly there won't be a "scientific" way of doing this, but some good faith effort to establish their relative weights should be taken into account. Peregrine981 (talk) 09:38, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I am a millennial and I have never heard the term Generation Y outside of this article. Neither for that matter has my father, who is pre-boomer. I suspect that it is merely popular among GenXers for the hopefully obvious reason that it refers to them and who happen to comprise a large portion of the media. Now, the above suggestion for a review of media and literature will probably be slow to come about because it is, if possible, statistically nightmarish. I did try a feasible alternative, though, and found that, while "millennial generation" lags behind "generation Y" on Google Trends, "millennials" has very recently begun to outpace it (and furthermore "generation Y" has usually trended with "generation X"). I suppose this is somewhat surprising to me given that I have heard "millennial generation" and "millennials" in places from last night's Colbert Report to Infinite Jest, which was published when I was five. As far as I can tell, Perhaps you should still use Generation Y, since the media and those who write books use it. But that may soon change, since as far as I can tell, Generation Y is not used by us and does not describe us, and eventually the media and those who write books will be us. Nikko2013 (talk) 07:11, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Nice commentary, Nikko2013. I don't think any generation gets to name itself. I'm a Gen-X'er, and I never thought "Generation X" was a very good name. It wasn't used by us and doesn't really describe much of anything. But it's the name that stuck. I expect the same will be true for your generation as well. Personally, I think "Millennial" is the right name, and would vote for such a page renaming. But maybe the trend has yet to become manifest. SeanAhern (talk) 16:44, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your research. Would it be possible to provide a link? While not conclusive, it could be interesting evidence. If we are speaking anecdotally, I have always thought "Gen Y" was a pretty stupid name, used because no one could think of anything better. But it is still quite widely used, so I think it is, as you suggest, premature to change the name of this article. Peregrine981 (talk) 08:28, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
In every news articles I read in the past month about this generation, I see the term Millennials, however I saw your links to older Gen Y articles. Also searching Google+ and Twitter, and the term Millennial comes up much more frequently vs Gen Y. Per WP:Weight, I propose that the article name be swapped to "Millennials", since that is the majority view in those three areas, but the minority view of using Gen Y needs to be reflected as well, as is on the first line. We should get consensus first, which you seem to be a hold-out.Frmorrison (talk) 17:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Could the article possibly explain why the name "Millennials" or where it came from? I don't understand what the context of this word is. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 07:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
The article says where the term comes from, here is part of it, "....link to the millennial year 2000". Another reason is this generation "comes to age" starting around the year 2000 when the first of them graduates high school. Frmorrison (talk) 17:28, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Removed Sentence

I removed this one line from a section in the Gen Y page. It claimed that Millennials were sometimes referred to as the MTV Generation because of MTV's influence on the millennials.

This is unsupported. MTV dominated the 1980's, but has largely become just another channel since then. The oldest millennials were in high school in the late 1990's, and therefore were not all that influenced by MTV. Furthermore, there is scant evidence to support this. Of the three sources, two of them described Gen Xers, not millennials. The one that did use the term MTV generation to describe what appeared to be millennials (it was not clear who it was referring as the MTV generation) appears to either be a misinterpretation of what the author was stating or a single usage that is an outlier. No one else refers to millennials as the "MTV Generation."

Like members of Generation X, who were heavily influenced by MTV, early members of Generation Y are also sometimes called the MTV Generation.

Echo Boomers

"Millennials are sometimes also called Echo Boomers, referring to the generation's size relative to the Baby Boomer generation, and due to the significant increase in birth rates during the 1980s and into the 1990s."

This doesn't ring true; aren't they called "echo boomers" because they are the children of the boomers and hence, like an echo of the signal that slowly broadens and reduces in amplitude with each cycle / generation?

Source

--Another Believer (Talk) 23:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Australian Gen Y start dates 1982 vs 1983 - reflecting sources inaccurately?

Hi! I'm wondering about the following line and why the 1983 birth date is being used as it does not reflect its cited sources' dates:

"In Australia, there is debate over Millennial birth dates. It is generally accepted, however, that the first Millennials were born in 1983. The Australian Bureau of Statistics, use 1983–2000."

In previous edits, the year "1982" was used up until this July 9, 2012 version of the page but was changed to 1983 in this revision dated July 10, 2012.

I checked the sources cited (#17-20) in these lines of text and they correlate with a 1982 birth year, not 1983 (source 18 states, "Generation Y: born 1982 onwards, aged 23 or younger" , source 19 says Generation Y is "aged 13 to 24" in October 2006, also indicating a 1982 start date while source 20 states, "Generation Y 1982-2000" and puts them at ages "12-26").

The pdf cited in the article's source 17 no longer exists at www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/efpa/super/subs/sub002.pdf while this source's author, McCrindle, places Generation Y's start date at 1980 in his 2009 book, The ABC of XYZ.

These citations all have quotes claiming that these aforementioned sources place Generation Y as starting in 1983 when the sources, themselves, say 1982. Was there a reason why this was changed from 1982 to 1983? Courtlea (talk) 22:53, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move to Millennials.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:11, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Generation Y → Millennial Generation – Although Generation Y was the initial name given by commentators, it appears that Millennial Generation has currently more notability. A plethora of media articles over the recent years use the word Millenials to talk about this generation. Generation Y can stay as a redirect. Vexorian (talk) 14:38, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

  • Support per nom. The proposed title Millennials, per discussion below. This is is far and away the WP:COMMONNAME, while "Generation Y" has become relatively obscure. --BDD (talk) 16:37, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose I was rather certain that was incorrect and without basis, and the data seems to support me. "gen y" produces 11,000 hits in Google news , "generation y" 8,000 Google news hits and "millennial generation" only 1,700 hits. Google books is the same story. 107,000 google book hits for "gen y" , 53,000 hits for "generation y" and only 18,000 Google book hits for "millennial generation".--Labattblueboy (talk) 20:35, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
Well, the generation tends to be known simply as Millennials. That might be the best title. --BDD (talk) 20:48, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
Show that's the case with reliable source material. I think that might work, 36,000 hits on google news for for "Millennials" and a search of the result seems to show that it applies only as a generational reference. I'd 'support either the current title or Millennials (with the pluralization).--Labattblueboy (talk) 21:52, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I suppose "Millennial Generation" isn't such a common form. I think I'd still prefer it to Generation Y, but I'll make "Millennials" my first choice. --BDD (talk) 22:40, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
Based on the article, especially the Terminology section, yes. --BDD (talk) 22:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Well, on the one hand, I feel dumb. On the other, now I know why I haven't heard much about Generation Y recently. I think I can safely say I support the move. Good work, BDD. Red Slash 20:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Question - not disputing that this may well be the most common name now, but what was the reasoning behind the term? I would have naturally guessed that it meant people born after 2000, but these people were born in some indeterminate time span before the millennium. Does it signify people who were high school age when the millennium turned or something like that? We should get the etymology behind the term 'millennial' in a source and add it to the article, either way. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 23:02, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I also support this move! "Generation Y" is quite dated and has fallen out of use. 202.166.31.191 (talk) 03:23, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

For the record, that is simply not true. Check google news, and you will see plenty of current usage. IMO we jumped the gun a bit on this move, but just can't be bothered to fight the epic fight that would be required to keep it, since most people here seem to have a personal preference for Millennials. Peregrine981 (talk) 13:58, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect title of this page

The name of this page should be "Millennial Generation" -- not "Millennials". For example, the name of Generation X's page isn't "Xers" and the name of the Baby Boomers page isn't "Boomers". How do we get it changed to Millennial Generation? 172.250.31.151 (talk) 15:32, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

The title was arrived at by consensus in the section right above this one. Sources refer to the "Millennials", not "Millennial Generation". --NeilN 15:38, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
The actual title was not arrived at with a consensus. Could you point out the discussion about that? Again, the name of Generation X's page isn't "Xers" and the name of the Baby Boomers page isn't "Boomers".
P.S. The consensus you quote above misspells the name with one letter "n". So then by your logic then we should change it to Millenials (with one "n" instead of two).
P.S.S. Also read the first line of the above "Requested Move" discussion, it says : "Although Generation Y was the initial name given by commentators, it appears that Millennial Generation has currently more notability" 172.250.31.151 (talk) 15:51, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
"Millenials" was obviously a typo - you won't get anywhere with such ridiculous nitpicking. If you want the title changed again, please initiate another Requested Move discussion. --NeilN 16:02, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Its not nitpicking, it's logic. And I quote from the above paragraph "Although Generation Y was the initial name given by commentators, it appears that Millennial Generation has currently more notability" Nitpicking is not admitting that the title is not descriptive. 172.250.31.151 (talk) 16:09, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Basing an argument over a missed n is nitpicking. And sources don't refer to "Xers" and "Baby Boomers" is probably more used than "Boomers". It's been shown above that "Millennials" is more used than "Millennial Generation" so that seems to be the common name. --NeilN 16:15, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, but now you're changing your argument from "consensus" to "probably more used". Just be consistent. 172.250.31.151 (talk) 16:19, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Talk about taking things out of context. "Baby Boomers" is probably more used than "Boomers". How did you manage to think that phrase was applied to describe the discussion above? --NeilN 16:23, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Please document the "consensus" you are relying on. Could you show us what you're talking about? Also "probably" is not proof of your argument. Where do you find evidence that "Millennials" is more common than "Millennial Generation"? 172.250.31.151 (talk) 16:25, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Okay, obviously you're not hearing me so I'll wait for other editors to chime in (evidence: read the section above (Labattblueboy's posts). --NeilN 16:32, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
The word "Millennial" has other meaning(s) besides the name of a generation. The word is an adjective for "millennium": adj. (1.) of or pertaining to a millennium or the millennium. (2.) worthy or suggestive of the millennium. It's more descriptive to use "Millennial Generation" as the title of this page.172.250.31.151 (talk) 16:37, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Cool. Start another Requested Move discussion (Favonian has given you the same advice). --NeilN 16:42, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Millennial Generation is preferable IMO. Millennials is pretty slangy, and indeed could refer to other things. PS, I'm not sure that the move was really correct, as Generation Y is still pretty widely used, and wikipedia discourages moves once a name has been established. Nonetheless, I don't feel like fighting about it, so I'll leave it at that. Peregrine981 (talk) 16:55, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
For the record the original move request (number one) reads as follows: Generation Y → Millennial Generation – Although Generation Y was the initial name given by commentators, it appears that Millennial Generation has currently more notability. A plethora of media articles over the recent years use the word Millenials to talk about this generation. Generation Y can stay as a redirect". (Vexorian) Then, the closing admin, Fuhghettaboutit, changed the name of the page to "Millennials" and did not follow the move request instructions to name the page "Millennial Generation".172.250.31.151 (talk) 14:50, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

It was a proposal not instructions. Just as posts at WP:AFD are proposals to delete and could result in delete, keep, merge, redirect, rename, stubify, etc. --NeilN 05:36, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Upon reading the discussion below, there was at least one other possibility on where to move this title, if not the proposed title (though the proposed title was where the title just moved from in a discussion above: Generation Y). However, there were also quite a few mentions on how "Millenials" is currently the WP:COMMONNAME for this topic. At this point, the discussion has seemed to have moved in several directions, some opposing this move, and some suggesting other moves; I could have relisted this move request, but it does not seem at this point, even with more input, a clear consensus in this discussion could be formed. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 06:28, 6 November 2013 (UTC)


Millennials → Millennial Generation – Request to move the name of the page from "Millennials" to "Millennial Generation" for the following reasons:

(1) The word "Millennial" has other meaning(s) besides the name of a generation. The word is an adjective for "millennium": adj. (1.) of or pertaining to a millennium or the millennium. (2.) worthy or suggestive of the millennium. It's more descriptive to use "Millennial Generation" as the title of this page.

(2) Only using "Millennials" without "Generation" doesn't support 3 out of 5 Misplaced Pages's page title goals of (a) Precision (b) Conciseness (c) Consistency

(3) Using the phrase Millennial Generation describes what the page is talking about. Millennial Generation is used on many other Misplaced Pages pages. "Millennials" can be confused with other meanings and it is not descriptive.

(4) There was no real consensus about the change to "Millennials". In fact, the first sentence of the Requested Move (above) says "Although Generation Y was the initial name given by commentators, it appears that "Millennial Generation" has currently more notability".

(5) Out of seven (7) current generation articles on Misplaced Pages (see below) -- all of them except the Baby Boomers (and that could be debated too) -- have the word "generation" in the title. Why would the Millennials page be an exception?

(6) The word "Millennials" means INDIVIDUAL members of a generation. But the words "Millennial Generation" mean the group -- which is what this article is about.

172.250.31.151 (talk) 18:02, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

  • Support as Nominator You still haven't answered the consensus problem. I agree with Peregrine981 (above) that "Millennial Generation" is preferable. As Peregrine said "Millennials is pretty slangy, and indeed could refer to other things". "Millennials" is not a descriptive title. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. It's not a "urban dictionary". 172.250.31.151 (talk) 18:21, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
It looks like The Guardian, Forbes, USA Today, and The Washington Post, just to sample a few, have also fallen victim to what you consider to be Urban Dictionary terminology. Drat! --BDD (talk) 18:57, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
n.b. The USA Today headline appears to distinguish between Millennials and Generation Y, but it's clear from the content of the article that the headline is actually referring to Generation X. --BDD (talk) 18:57, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper or an urban dictionary. It's an encyclopedia! 172.250.31.151 (talk) 18:56, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose Straightforward application of WP:COMMONNAME. Looking through Google results of "Millennials" shows newspaper/magazine articles are indeed referring to this article's topic. It is not slangy or less descriptive any more than "Generation X" or "Baby Boomers" are. --NeilN 18:37, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose If you are employing reliable sources you have two options: 1) Millennials, referring to the individuals or 2) Generation Y, referring to the generation. The generation is most commonly known as Generation Y and the individuals of that generation are commonly known as Millennials. Millennial Generation is not the common name for the generation and thus not appropriate. Here is the associated search data:
Google News:
  • "Millennials" 36,000 hits
  • "gen y" 11,000 hits ,
  • "generation y" 8,000 hits
  • "millennial generation" only 1,700 hits.
Google books is the same story:
This shows more support for "Millennials" or "Millennial Generation" than for "Gen Y". -- "Millennials" 36,000 hits

"gen y" 11,000 hits , 172.250.31.151 (talk) 19:01, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

This would show more hits for Millennials than the Gen Y term: "Millennials" 36,000 hits "gen y" 11,000 hits 172.250.31.151 (talk) 22:53, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Indeed it does. As stated before, and I do feel like a broken record here, The common term for individuals is Millennials. As soon as you throw the word "generation" into the title it's no longer the common term with the proposed title being the least common of all the search options presented.--Labattblueboy (talk) 02:42, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment
  • Misplaced Pages is not an urban dictionary. An encyclopedia should use the most descriptive titles to describe precisely what is being discussed in the text. It's more acceptable to use slang words in the text BUT not the title.

Many companies use descriptions of the product on the packaging itself, for example Peet's ""Coffee"" or look at all of Proctor and Gamble's packaging here http://www.pg.com/en_US/brands/all_brands.shtml

Specifically look at: Olay http://www.olay.com/skin-care-products/anti-aging-products/micro-sculpting-cream?pid=075609019326 OralB http://www.oralb.com/products/electric-toothbrush/ Covergirl http://www.covergirl.com/beauty-products/face-makeup

P.S. There are tons of reliable sources who use "Millennial Generation" as well.172.250.31.151 (talk) 18:59, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

confusion over use of talk page, not relevant discussion NE Ent 20:35, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Please don't vote more than once. Your support is implied as the requester unless you specify otherwise. --BDD (talk) 19:01, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Please DO NOT change my vote like it appears you did from Misplaced Pages's "history" of edits.172.250.31.151 (talk) 19:14, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
I didn't change your vote, I simply struck it. You're not allowed to vote more than once. --BDD (talk) 19:19, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
In my book, that is still a change made to my vote.172.250.31.151 (talk) 19:31, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
The problem above was that there was no consensus yet the move was made to change the name. So please be consistent about consensus.

Here are Misplaced Pages's policies for article titles: Millennial Generation fits at least three (3) of these below:

A good Misplaced Pages article title has the five following characteristics:

(1) Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject will recognize.

(2) Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such titles usually convey what the subject is actually called in English.

(3) Precision – The title is sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.

(4) Conciseness – The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.

(5) Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. Many of these patterns are listed (and linked) in the box of Topic-specific conventions on article titles.

172.250.31.151 (talk) 19:07, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

  • Oppose per COMMONNAME arguments above, and it looks like the most common forms don't need to repeat the word "generation" in each case, except for "generation-X" where it is part of the nickname, so the articles for the three generations are located at "Baby Boomers" "Generation X" and "Millennials", not "Baby Boomer Generation", "Generation X" and "Millennial Generation". Of course "Millennial Generation" is fine for the lead as a secondary term. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 19:09, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

That's incorrect please see:

172.250.31.151 (talk) 19:11, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Bypass redirects and that becomes:

Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 19:15, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Out of seven (7) current generation articles on Misplaced Pages (see below) -- all of them except the Baby Boomers (and that could be debated too) -- have the word "generation" in the title. Why would the Millennials page be an exception?

172.250.31.151 (talk) 19:51, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Because it's not even close to the most common name. It's in fact the least common of all the search results. If the discussion ultimately believe that the word generation is necessary than the article should not be located at Millenial Generation but rather Generation Y, which is the common name.--Labattblueboy (talk) 21:16, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Just curious, do you call them Gen Yers -- personally? There is clearly a change going on in the media. Also, your research is limited to Google. TIME magazine published a recent COVER story with Millennials (not Gen Y) in the title. See Read more: http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2143001,00.html#ixzz2iaFL6wQE 172.250.31.151 (talk) 21:40, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Support "Millenials" refers to individuals of the "Millenial Generation" that may or may not compose only a part of the generation. "The Millenials" is synonymous with "Millenial Generation", so the only titles that carry the meaning of this article (besides Generation Y) are "The Millenials" and "Millenial Generation". "Millenial Generation" is a better title in that regard. Ryan Vesey 20:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Support: What we are talking about here is "The Millennial Generation". "Millennials" to me is something different. A "Canadian" is different from "Canada". A "comedian" is different than comedy. We should be precise about this. We are discussing the demographic cohort, as a social/economic/cultural phenomenon, not just the people that make it up. It's a bit of a technicality, but it is a real difference. IMO Baby boomer should also be moved to baby boom generation, as ALL other generations are. As you can see above, the rest are all listed as "XYZ Generation (or inverse)", why make a change for this one? Why use the adjective rather than the noun to describe the phenomenon? We're supposed to use the most common name, Millennials (plural) is a different thing than what is being discussed in this article IMO. Peregrine981 (talk) 20:58, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
If you employ this approach than the article should in fact be moved back to Generation Y as that is the common generational name, far outpacing Millenial Generation.--Labattblueboy (talk) 21:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
That's not exactly true. Many articles will use Gen Y in the title but Millennials or Millennial Generation in the text. For ex. see http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-dalton/gen-y-youre-not-entitled-_b_4067343.html
Labattblueboy, So would you call the page "Y" and drop the word "generation"? 172.250.31.151 (talk) 21:29, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Your article demonstrates the situation very clearly. Generation Y is the generation name and Millennials are their subject. I'm suggesting you have two options, one you call it Millennials to name after the individuals or Generation Y. "Millennial Generation" simply doesn't name the reliable source usage to justify it being the name, plain and simple.--Labattblueboy (talk) 21:59, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Actually, I'm talking about this article from TIME magazine. TIME published a May 20, 2013 COVER story with Millennials (not Gen Y) in the title. See Read more: http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2143001,00.html#ixzz2iaFL6wQE It was widely covered by many important media outlets. There is clearly a change going on in the media. Also, your research is limited to Google. You need to come up with something more than that. Also could you tell us what you mean when you write "Generation Y is the generation name and Millennials are their subject". 172.250.31.151 (talk) 22:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
I used the best systematic approach available. I might agree that something more would be required if the mixture of news, for newer reliable source hits, and book, for longer term trends, weren't demonstrating the exact same thing. So I am happy with the search results as they exist so far and think they are rather accurate, but if you have alternates you are free to present them. by way of explanation, the common name for the generation is Generation Y and people in that generation are most commonly known as Millennials.--Labattblueboy (talk) 02:54, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
As I've said already, I think this move was largely unnecessary, as Generation Y is still in quite common usage (I can find hundreds of recent uses of the term in the popular press), and WP naming policy says " If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed." It may be best simply to revert to the long-standing article title.Peregrine981 (talk) 08:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Wikiepedia requires titles to be:

  • Concise – The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.
  • Consistant – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. Many of these patterns are listed (and linked) in the box of Topic-specific conventions on article titles.
  • Precise – The title is sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.

The "Millennials" page title isn't consistent with the other Misplaced Pages articles on generations. Out of seven (7) current generation articles on Misplaced Pages all of them except the Baby Boomers (and that could be debated too as Peregrine981 suggested above) have the word "generation" in the title. Why would the Millennials page be an exception? 172.250.31.151 (talk) 17:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

That "requires" is your own phrasing. Here's what the policy actually says: "These should be seen as goals, not as rules." Further on: "Misplaced Pages prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural." (emphasis mine) --NeilN 17:28, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Yes, these are goals of the site -- they are not "rules". So let's help the site achieve it's goals. 172.250.31.151 (talk) 17:36, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
As pointed out above by others -- the word "Millennials" means INDIVIDUAL members of a generation. But the words "Millennial Generation" mean the group -- which is what this article is about. It's more precise. 172.250.31.151 (talk) 17:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Sources don't use it that way: , , --NeilN 17:43, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Sure they do, look at the Time magazine article http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2143001,00.html and the Strauss and Howe book http://books.google.com/books?id=To_Eu9HCNqIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=millennials+rising&hl=en&sa=X&ei=b3BhUs78MIquigKdvID4Dw&ved=0CEoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=millennials%20rising&f=false --- both of them use the word "Generation" in the titles and on the covers. 172.250.31.151 (talk) 17:54, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
"Millennials" in all of those articles is used to discuss the members of the generation in the plural. It's like an article about penguins, saying "penguins are birds". That doesn't mean that the actual name is "penguins"... it is "penguin", but in english we add an "s" to a noun to modify it to indicate more than one... I don't see why that is such a difficult concept. A "Millennial" is a member of the "Millennial Generation" and two or more of them are "Millennials"... that doesn't mean that the article shouldn't be called "Millennial Generation". They all redirect to each other anyway, so why all the fuss? Should we start renaming articles about nouns that are most often referred to in the plural? It just doesn't make sense if you look at it in a broader perspective. Peregrine981 (talk) 07:36, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Peregrine, the title of this article is plural, because it refers to the group, and this is how they are commonly referred to. Softlavender (talk) 09:31, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
I don't think it is so clear. On what evidence is that based? "Millennials" is clearly used to refere to members of the generation in the plural. But it is hard to sort that out from uses of "millennials" as the name of the generation itself. Almost impossible to tell based on a simple google search. So, considering that all previous generations are referred to as "aaa generation" I think the guideline to maintain consistency with other articles is paramount here. "Millennial Generation" appears to be quite commonly used as well, and often in conjunction with uses of Millennials. Considering that Generation Y is also often used interchangeably with "Millennials" I think that "Millennial generation" is clearly the go to name of the generation as a group. Peregrine981 (talk) 10:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Peregrine's argument seems to be that there in some meaningful difference between the significance of "Millennial Generation" (the group) and "Millennials" (the plural individuals). This seems like a false distinction and a pseudo argument because the "group" means the same thing as "plural individuals", we're talking about both terms describing the exact same set with the same constituent members. Because they are not different concepts at all, no one would suggest separate articles for separate topics (one for the "group" and one for the "plural individuals"). "Millennials" is therefore just as precise as "Millennial Generation" (as well as far more common in current English). Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Did you read that the pattern for Misplaced Pages articles is to use the word "generation":
Out of seven (7) current generation articles on Misplaced Pages (see below) -- all of them except the Baby Boomers (and that could be debated too) -- have the word "generation" in the title. Why would the Millennials page be an exception?
As usual it's not about you or "your" generation. It's about what the pattern is on Misplaced Pages. Even Misplaced Pages on the main page calls itself "Misplaced Pages -- The 💕" because it's more descriptive.172.250.31.151 (talk) 15:21, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Do we really have to get out the hundreds of thousands of examples of the "Millennial Generation" being used? I count more than 830,000 on google. Read through the sources we use on this page and you will see that "Millennials" is a reference to multiple members of "the Millennial Generation", ie... quoting the coiner of the term, Neil Howe "Naming the Millennial Generation back in 1989 has been a boon for his own business, though he downplays it. It's made him relatively famous. His best-selling book, Millennials Rising: The Next Great Generation, was published in 2000, and he is now a must-book speaker in demographic circles. He also runs a publishing and consulting company, and his client list includes Viacom and Time Warner." (emphasis mine). You can see that the originator of the term uses Millennial as an adjective to decribe members of the millennial generation. You have not proven anything other than the fact that "Millennial" is used to describe members of the generation, not the generation itself. Peregrine981 (talk) 16:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Do you really want to use unfiltered Google hits as there are 5.1 million of them for "Millennials". It's used in the same way as "Baby Boomers" is used for the "Baby Boom Generation". --NeilN 16:41, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry if I'm not being clear. I just said that Millennial is being used as the adjective, and plural of members of The Millennial Generation, so a crude google "count" isn't very revelatory in this case. My point is that Millennial Generation, is widely used, contrary to the assertions of Guerillero, who said it is "rarely used". It is in fact the term that is used, and Millennial is used as a descriptor. Peregrine981 (talk) 16:54, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Doesn't the pattern policy -- using the word "generation" in all the other Misplaced Pages generation articles (except Boomers) trump your Google searches? If it doesn't, then we should change all the other articles about generations to; "Xers", Zers", "Losts", "Silents", "Greatests", etc.172.250.31.151 (talk) 16:58, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
As usual, you invoke policy where none exists (there is no "pattern policy") and ignore the ones that do. WP:COMMONNAME dictates the names of those other erticles. --NeilN 17:22, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Please have a look at WP:CRITERIA. It clearly states that one of the "good characteristics" of an article title is "Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. Many of these patterns are listed (and linked) in the box of Topic-specific conventions on article titles." Clearly not the case here. Neither is it clear that "Millennials" is in fact the most common name used to refer to the generation itself, rather than as an adjective describing it, or its members. You've simply asserted that it is the case without proving it.Peregrine981 (talk) 18:05, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
From the WashPo link above: "They belong to the ill-defined cohort known variously as millennials, echo boomers or Generation Y." Note they are saying the cohort (generation) is known as millennials. --NeilN 21:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough. I still don't think that at all proves that the generation itself is broadly known as Millennials (which if adopted is an even more asinine name than Generation Y, but I digress). I haven't really got a lot of time for this, so if you as an experienced editor insist on sticking to it, fine. I won't object further. Peregrine981 (talk) 08:09, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
  • @Peregrine: You said to NeilN "I just said that Millennial is being used as the adjective, and plural of members of The Millennial Generation, so a crude google 'count' isn't very revelatory in this case." That's not true: Millennials is being used as a noun, and in the plural. A Google count is indeed revelatory unless you don't know how to use Google, because we are contrasting "Millennials" (plural, not singular), the WP:COMMONNAME by far, with "Millennial Generation". Your attempt to split hairs between "members of the generation whether plural or singular" doesn't really wash. Every generation is a group of individuals; no exceptions to that, and the WP:COMMONNAME for each generation as a group is used in a backformation form to refer to an individual. The undeniable fact is, this generation is nearly always referred to en masse as Millennials, and as a group or in plural as Millennials. Softlavender (talk) 11:36, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Note: Following a complaint I made at ANI, the IP has been blocked "for the duration of the move request" (though this may not be the case if it's relisted). He or she will likely not be able to respond until the 31st. --BDD (talk) 20:36, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
For the record I think banning the anon was a rather over-litigious and heavy handed approach. The anon was an inexperienced editor, and their double voting was very minor IMO, and was frankly more of a slight annoyance than truly "disruptive" editing. A calmer, more collaborative approach could have been used, unless there is something I am unaware of. However, the record of the ban discussion seems to have been suppressed. Peregrine981 (talk) 08:09, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
@Peregrine981 The IP did far more than double vote. Please see Misplaced Pages:ANI#IP_insists_on_double_voting (or look at the latest archive as the closed discussion will be moved soon). A couple of notes: The IP was temporarily blocked, not banned and the discussion was affected when a post in a completely different topic was oversighted, affecting about a hundred unrelated diffs. --NeilN 15:24, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

According to the instruction box at the top of this move request it clearly says that we must "Remember to base arguments on article title policy". See http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Article_titles#Deciding_on_an_article_title

The requirements are that titles must be:

  • Recognizable – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject will recognize.
  • Natural – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such titles usually convey what the subject is actually called in English.
  • Precise – The title is sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.
  • Concise – The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.
  • Consistant – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. Many of these patterns are listed (and linked) in the box of Topic-specific conventions on article titles.

So far, no editor has given good reasons for all five criteria. Using "Millennials" without "Generation" does not follow number 5 for sure -- as most other articles on the generations topic use the word "Generations" in the title. The pattern is established.

If you want to argue your points on the other four criteria then please give well thought out reasons for each one. 172.250.31.151 (talk) 14:55, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

References to WP:COMMONNAME are mentioned frequently above. This takes care of Recognizable, Natural, Precise, and Concise. The same criteria was applied to Baby Boomer. But I doubt this will satisfy you, given the WP:IDHT attitude so prevalent on your talk page. That's fine. The closing admin can look at the arguments currently presented here and make a decision. --NeilN 16:58, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Support: on basis of consistency and precision. Also (and this may be too subjective to be meaningful), despite its common usage, "Millennials" sounds like an informal shorthand to me, too slangy to be an encyclopedia title. / edg ☺ ☭ 16:51, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
WP:COMMONNAME can be discussed too. However, it doesn't override all the other criteria of page title policy. Since there is more discussion today then the admin should not close this move request prematurely. 172.250.31.151 (talk) 17:06, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
Okay, WP:COMMONNAME has been discussed above. Some editors argue that Generation Y is still the common name. Others argue that "Millennials" is the common name based on Google searches vs. the term "Millennial Generation". Still, others argue that "Millennials" is not the common name and I quote Peregrine981: (1) "Neither is it clear that "Millennials" is in fact the most common name used to refer to the generation itself, rather than as an adjective describing it, or its members". And (2) "Millennial Generation" appears to be quite commonly used as well, and often in conjunction with uses of Millennials. Considering that Generation Y is also often used interchangeably with "Millennials" I think that "Millennial generation" is clearly the go to name of the generation as a group".
In addition, I argued that the major sources including Time magazine and Strauss and Howe who actually coined the term use the word "Generation".
For example, the recent Time magazine article http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2143001,00.html and the Strauss and Howe book that introduced the term into the popular culture http://books.google.com/books?id=To_Eu9HCNqIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=millennials+rising&hl=en&sa=X&ei=b3BhUs78MIquigKdvID4Dw&ved=0CEoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=millennials%20rising&f=false --- both of them use the word "Generation" in the titles and on the covers. 172.250.31.151 (talk) 17:34, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
Any major source or expert can come up with neologisms - doesn't mean that they will stick (remember the "Oughts"?). Please refer to this Google Books Ngram . While "Millennials" and "Millennial generation" started off close together, it is clear Millennials has taken off (and is used to describe the group as I wrote above) over the years. "Generation Y" is even more popular - I would support that over "Millennial generation". --NeilN 19:33, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
Speaking of Strauss and Howe - . Millennials used to describe a group. --NeilN 19:39, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
For the record, the exact title of the Strauss and Howe book is Millennials Rising: The Next Great Generation — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.250.31.151 (talk) 20:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC)


Oppose. Millennials is the term used by the majority of the media for the past few years, not using the word 'generation'. It is not up to the editors to name the generation, but rather use the most common term. Frmorrison (talk) 17:35, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

External Links

What is the policy about all these links at the end of the page? 172.250.31.151 (talk) 19:20, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

WP:EL. I would probably consider these guidelines:
  • (avoid) Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article.
  • (link) Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Misplaced Pages article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks), or other reasons.
Also, if the link is used as a source within the article, it shouldn't again appear as an external link. --NeilN 19:29, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Thank you. Alot, if not all of these external links, should be removed per the following Misplaced Pages guideline: "Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links". See http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:ELPOINTS 172.250.31.151 (talk) 16:50, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Notice of Sources Saying Millennials are between 1984 and either 1999 or 2000

Hey everyone, I added a source saying that the Millennial people have births starting in 1984 and concluding at either 1999 or 2000. Should this source get removed, please contact me with the reason of removal. Angela Maureen (talk) 16:32, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Angela Maureen. I've removed the text and source as a professor of Christian ministry does not seem to be an expert in generational definitions and cannot support "Many other sources..." --NeilN 16:43, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Why wouldn't a professor of Christian ministry be an expert in generational definitions? Do you have any idea what professors of Christian ministry are expert in or do you know any? This response seems like a bias against using any source that indicates Christianity in the source, as part of a trend of increased bigotry to get that viewpoint declared illegitimate according to wikipedia. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 17:03, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
"Why wouldn't a professor of biology be an expert in generational definitions? Do you have any idea what professors of biology are expert in or do you know any?" To answer your knee-jerk response, I would have the same question about any person who makes a passing remark in one of their columns. Are they speaking as a recognized expert in the field (or have they studied the subject) or as a layperson? --NeilN 17:42, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm not talking about professors of biology, and answering with another question is not really an answer. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 17:45, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
The quote gives you an indication of how your query could apply to any profession - why highlight professors of Christian ministry? If the source was an astronomer and I pointed that out, would you come on here writing about increased bigotry against astronomers? --NeilN 17:52, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Again, we are talking about Christian ministers, not astronomers. Drawing any number of false analogies doesn't help much. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 17:57, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
So Christian ministers automatically have expertise in this area? Please expand! --NeilN 17:59, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
"Members of profession A are concerned with all generations and work with them. Therefore they may be expected to have a viewpoint on how they ought to be categorized. However, I liken them to members of profession B, who would not be expected to know anything about categorizing generations. Now that I have likened profession A to profession B, we may as well go ahead and assume therefore that members of profession A are no more likely than members of profession B to know anything about it." Nope, that's a bogus analogy. You may as well not liken profession A to profession B, because the analogy doesn't hold up. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:10, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
An ER doctor works with all generations. Doesn't mean we treat all of them as reliable sources for this topic. --NeilN 18:26, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Have any of them published any opinions on how generations ought to be categorized, or is this another attempt at the trusted old "analogy" strategem? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:43, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
The onus is on you to show (without resorting to insinuations of bias or bigotry) the one sentence in the article written by Macintosh is a reliable source for, "Many other sources..." --NeilN 21:04, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
I didn't add the info and wouldn't have worded it like that, but would have attributed it more specifically to the source; presumably the contributor who did add it had other additional sources in mind for considering a younger generation to start with 2000 births. However it is clearly a reliable source for its own opinion, per WP:RS. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 21:56, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
The question that remains is why does that source matter? Is this person an expert? Dbrodbeck (talk) 22:44, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure if any particular field can claim to be the sole "experts" on when generations are considered to begin and end, but there's no reason why this cited and sourced opinion should be irrelevant to the topic. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 23:46, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

The Terminology section has references from sources from a variety of fields - all with some claim to actually studying the subject as opposed to tossing in one sentence in a column. We don't haphazardly add all published opinions. --NeilN 04:03, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Well so far there seems to be not enough consensus for it so I won't press the point as long as that remains the case. Cheers, Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 05:10, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
  1. Silverman, Stephen M. (January 15, 2002). "Colin Powell Joins MTV Generation – Colin Powell". People.com. Retrieved August 24, 2010.
  2. Tahman Bradley (October 29, 2007). "Obama Unplugged – Obama Talks With the MTV Generation – Political Radar". Blogs.abcnews.com. Retrieved August 24, 2010.
  3. Kolbert, Elizabeth (April 20, 1994). "Frank Talk by Clinton To MTV Generation". The New York Times. Retrieved April 2, 2010.
  4. Kershaw, Pam. "Managing Generation X and Y". Retrieved 1 October 2013.
  5. Shoebridge, Neil. "Generation Y: Catch Them If You Can". Retrieved 1 October 2013.
  6. McCrindle, Mark. "MccRindle Research: Superannuation and the Under 40s: Summary Report: The Attitudes and Views of Generations X and Y on Superannuation". Retrieved 1 October 2013.
  7. McCrindle, Mark (2009). The ABC of XYZ (PDF). Sydney, Australia: UNSW Press. p. 11.
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